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How Being Brave Means Asking for Help · Voices For Suicide Prevention

• 0:05
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome everyone to our latest episode of Voices for Suicide Prevention.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_02: As we like to say, our conversations here are real talk, real honest, real life.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Scott Light.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm Stephanie Booker.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: We are always honored to talk about issues, challenges, and yes, the victories for veterans who have served our country.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: There's real momentum now in many sectors of America's armed forces to talk about mental health and break stigmas and help our men and women who wear or once wore the uniform.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: We have three distinguished visitors and vet We have three distinguished veterans with us today.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: Today, she's clinical director and veteran services coordinator at the Recovery Center in Lancaster.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: Master Sergeant retired Sean Clifton is with us as well.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: Twenty-two years of service in the U.S.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_02: Army and Ohio Army National Guard.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: He's a Green Beret, who is wounded in combat in Afghanistan.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: Today, Sean is an independent consultant and peer support ambassador for veterans' mental health and wellness.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: And Sergeant First Class retired Jason Hughes joins us as well.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: 22 years of service in the U.S.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: Army and Ohio Army National Guard.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: Jason served in Operation Noble Eagle, served in South Korea as well.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: And today he's an executive right here at OSPF as program manager and veterans liaison.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome all.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's good to have you all.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: Well, let's go around the table with each of you.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: And let's just start with Nicole, if you don't mind.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: Why did you serve?
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: Was there a reason why you served?
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: And where did that calling come from?
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I was actually one of those folks who I was a very shy high school student.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: And my dad was like, why don't you try ROTC?
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, what are you talking about?
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: What's that?
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so I ended up going to Ohio State and I did it for the college money initially.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'll just admit that.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: But once I got into ROTC and then into my career, active army career, I found that, you know, it's just this sense of, you know, I've always had that sense of wanting to serve a greater purpose.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I found that calling and serving my country and it just kind of blossomed from there.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_02: Great.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: Sean, where'd that calling come from?
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_03: For me, the uh wasn't necessarily a calling, so to speak, uh, as it was a um uh a need to be more responsible in in life choices.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um I was finding myself struggling as a college student and uh more mixed up in the social scene than the study habits.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_03: And uh it just came to a point in my life, um, you know, as a as a 19, 20-year-old, where I just found myself um needing to make a more responsible life choice.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_03: And uh and I decided just independently to pursue a military career.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_03: And uh and that was really the catalyst to adult responsibility for me.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I I look back on that decision-making process as my very first real adult decision.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_03: And uh, and then after I decided to join, uh, you know, much like Nicole, I yeah, I knew the GI Bill would come with that, and some veteran benefits would come with that, and and uh, and maybe some experience and some skills that I can apply uh to college, yeah, if if I give it a second chance, which I did.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_03: And um, so yeah, I was a bit of a lost kid and the military helped me out.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_03: Jason, what about you?
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_04: So I grew up in a tiny little county in Ohio, Highland County.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_04: So I wanted to get out and see the world.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_04: And I'd always knew I wanted to join the military.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_04: I remember I used to love those be all you can be army commercials as a kid.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_04: And so to like expedite that process, I actually did the delayed entry program in 1997.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_04: So I signed up for the Army in April while I was still a senior in high school and then graduated in May and was in basic training in July.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_04: Like I just went straight there.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_04: One of the best decisions, hard decision, but it was one of the best decisions I ever made.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: Well, let's start with you, Jason, then we'll go back around.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_02: Uh let's let's just continue to talk about kind of a the life arc and and career arc for each of you.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_02: What are the greatest assets of military life and and how it shaped you as a young person and still today?
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: And then we'll layer on top of that.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what were the greatest challenges in military life?
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_04: Uh for me, it's gotta be discipline and organizational skills.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_04: I even though I've been out uh retired six years ago, I'm still very disciplined with my schedule, eating, physical fitness, like how I you know do my entire day.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_04: And it's you know, helped me be very organized in my life.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_04: I almost know down to the minute what I'm gonna do.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_04: Some may say that's a crutch, but for me it works because I'm always thinking ahead about what I need to do.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_04: That way I can capitalize on my downtime because I know how much downtime I have because I plan for it.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: What about challenges?
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_04: Challenges would be um you're uh coming together with so many people who have different beliefs, different backgrounds, different experiences, and and trying to find that uh even ground where you could fit in with these folks.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_04: Uh it's fun, but it can be very challenging because it's so many different beliefs coming together to serve one common mission for the military.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, coming into the military, I was just so full of energy and the need to do something.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that um I just didn't have a particular mission, right?
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I didn't have any boundaries left or right, you know, either due to uh my upbringing or, you know, lack of boundaries uh or whatever.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_03: And um it was the structure that I needed uh that the military provided me.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_03: And uh along with that structure, just that um belief that, man, I'm kind of good at this stuff.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_03: And uh so I guess confidence uh would go along with that structure, uh, which then continued to evolve into leadership and to Jason's point, you know, management skills and and those sorts of things.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_03: But uh it was the structure that I needed.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um uh the refinement of discipline for sure uh would was uh was a huge benefit for me.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um and just that sense of adventure, you know, I really needed a huge uh reboot, so to speak, uh, in the mid-90s and uh to completely get away from you know my environment and to give this entire new environment a chance uh was was scary.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_03: And uh but leaning into that um the result was increased confidence and organization skills and and discipline and all those things.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_03: So challenges were just those unknowns.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, the challenge of what am I getting into here?
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I I know nothing about this this world, you know, I I I grew up with no inkling of joining the military.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um so the unknowns was a big challenge.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um uh again to Jason's point, I think working with others, uh, you know, other other other cultures, um other areas of the United States, you know, uh traveling, just all of these, all of these things that were new to me, you know, having grown up in a uh relatively small town in Ohio, um, realizing that the world was was so big uh and vast, and that world became even bigger throughout my career.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_03: But I think I think the biggest challenge would be uh doing it alone, you know, uh really stepping away uh from family, stepping away from home, stepping away from the comforts of the known and uh and and leaning into this to this unknown.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_03: That was that was a big challenge for me.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, I think my theme is the growth what grow through what you go through.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I think both were um assets and challenges or strengths and challenges.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think when I um look back at what I gained from the military was definitely those leadership skills, those management skills that have like served me well in civilian life and um the resilience, the mental toughness, the confidence, um, the physical fitness and the ability to, you know, kind of stay stay fit.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so I think all of those things through you know, through all the challenges, which you can't even like, you know, um we're trying to like all these memories that come back and all the different challenges you faced and how um difficult they were, but how exciting and how how fun.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that just that sense of teamwork that you have in the military, that um the ability to bring together all these diverse people like we were talking about, but create a team that's focused on you know serving their country ultimately um and defending the constitution.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where like, you know, I think that um that greatest um sense of pride, I think, for me, and especially um serving in the national capital region where that was ultimately, you know, we're literally defending the constitution.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so that was one of the greatest um missions of my and opportunities of my career was to do that.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and we had a very diverse team in that um in my battalion, and and we we um did a great job and and I love all those soldiers, and um, and that was just an amazing part of my career.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: On the flip side of that, right, some of the challenges that we've touched on, and I was a dual military family, so my spouse and I both served.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: We had to, you know, navigate career challenges.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: We were both the same rank.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: We had to navigate career challenges, we had to navigate deployments, taking care of two children.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I don't, I, you know, I I really wouldn't have been able to do it without my spouse, Joe Gabriel, who's also a retired lieutenant colonel and who also is a veteran of Iraq and Afghanistan.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so having another spouse that understood what um what you were going through was a challenge, was an asset and sometimes a challenge because a lot of times, you know, I think as as physically fit and as resilient we are, I think kind of the theme of this is we don't often take care of ourselves truly mentally.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so those are definitely some of the challenges that I see, not only for myself, but you know, just for the veterans I work with today.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I think, you know, just being able to grow through what you go through.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: And and that brings us to that conversation about mental health, mental wellness, taking care of your brain health.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: When you joined the military and and compare those to when you left the military, were there conversations around taking care of your mental health?
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, when I got into the military was, you know, the early 90s.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, that just wasn't a part of the conversation.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: That was a part of your your whole military upbringing.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and it wasn't until, you know, later on we started to try to have, you know, after uh 20 years of of the Iraq and um Afghanistan conflict that we started to have maybe more conversations about these things.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I still don't think that they resonate very well, unfortunately, um, for a lot of reasons.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: But and I think it takes individuals to go through certain things and to come out the other end um successfully, to share their stories and to be able to say, like, hey, you you can do this.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so so unfortunately, I don't think it was part of the conversation.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm glad it is starting to become more of a conversation.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, I think sometimes we undermine each other.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: We don't help each other seek help.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I I remember different times where um, you know, I just I just heard certain messages from at different times of my career, which really kind of undermined the uh uh ability for people to seek help or want to seek help.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I think that while it's gotten better, it it it needs to, we need to be have real talk and real stories and be honest with each other.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I can remember uh just having briefings and things like that, you know, uh say something, the open door policies, uh things of that nature.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_03: But um I don't think any of us really understood what was going on with regards to mental health or depression or anxiety or all of those things.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, being a Gen X type kid, you know, latch key and you just kind of figure it out and and just grind through it.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_03: I think that uh at least for me, that mentality is is kind of what the army was or the military was to a large degree, uh, maybe up until just the last 10 or 15 years or so.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_03: Unfortunately, uh two decades of war, that realization that, yeah, there's some things we need to talk about here.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um but early on, at least the first half or or or more of my career, I I don't really remember any um focus on, hey, let's talk about these things.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_03: And uh and a lot of it, it it at least in in my career field, was uh you begin to share uh these concerns, you begin to share these issues.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_03: Uh it can be perceived as weakness, uh, not only internally, you know, am I weak, but externally, do they think I'm weak.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and then how does that affect my career?
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_03: How does that affect my ability to get advanced training, to get deployments, just all of the things?
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_03: And uh again, going back to this kind of Gen X mindset of just bury it and move forward, um, the realization that uh we've buried these things, or at least in my experience, I've buried so much uh that how do I reach down and revisit and reprocess in order to let all of that stuff go?
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_03: Because in my experience, these buried feelings are the core to my anxiety.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_03: It was the core to my anger, it was the core to my uh addictive behaviors and alcohol abuse and all of the things.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, but it wasn't until I began to explore what I've buried uh through the power of vulnerability, ultimately surrendering to this and trusting others uh that my healing journey began.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_03: And uh it's still a process, but um that process is so very empowering and liberating.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_03: But uh, and that's that's what I hope in this current generation is that we're able to process that near real time versus burying it and moving forward.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_03: If you had spoken up, would that have hurt your careers?
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_03: That's a great question.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_03: Uh would it have?
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, I I hate to look back and what if anything.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_03: Uh but in my perspective at that time would be a hard yes.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_03: Uh looking back in hindsight with the clarity or the pain of hindsight.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's just it's the it's the it's the journey that Nicole uh alluded to.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, I just don't want my hope is that mental health is a priority and that with that clarity and that power of vulnerability, it it makes those in these warrior careers um even better at what they're doing uh and in and even more powerful.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_03: I just think that that power of vulnerability and that and that shared um struggle, uh, it's just going to make everybody else better in the long term.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_04: So for me, join you know, joining the military in the 90s, just like Nicole and Sean said, it was not something that they really talked about.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_04: I remember being at my first duty station at Fort Hood, Texas.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_04: If we would have brought these things up, it would have been like on the no-no list.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_04: But at the same time, I remember around roughly around 2007 when the Department of Defense did have that shift where we went from reactive to proactive.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_04: You know, fast forward, we now we call that upstream prevention.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_04: So there was a shift in 2007, which ironically, that is also when I got involved with prevention work.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_04: And so I can say for that at least half of my career, I was prevention focused, but at the same time, I wasn't naive.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_04: I knew that just because I was bought into prevention doesn't mean other soldiers and service members were bought in as well.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_04: It was just something we didn't talk about.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_04: In fact, when I retired in 2019, when I remember when I did my VA um claim, you know, uh during the questionnaire, when I got to the mental health question.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_04: Now, I unfortunately I did not have any mental health concerns, but I remember as soon as I saw the question, I read half it and clicked no without even thinking about it.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_04: And I was someone who was working in the field.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I want to kind of talk a little bit more about those misconceptions, the myths around mental health and and armed services.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: And we're talking about how some things have evolved.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: Can you help people who haven't don't have military service?
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: Because for like almost 99% of Americans, we don't we don't touch the military service.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um military service in families, about less than 1% or right around 1% of the uh U.S.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: population.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: Help us understand those myths, those misconceptions, and how we can support the military service member as well as the the veteran.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think the one myth is, and I think is that you know, we're all broken in some way.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um and maybe everybody, doesn't matter whether you're a veteran or not, we're all a little broken in some way.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but I think that we also need to we need to be able to support everybody who's who's who has um served at the same time recognize that um we're also strong, very people.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of like the dialectic.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's like we can be broken and be strong, you know.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think we have to consider that um you know, that helping the veteran is is is it's probably similar to first responders and um other communities that have to do very difficult things and and do traumatic things and experience a lot of trauma.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so it but I think that r um whether you're an employer, whether you're a um, you know, a family member, whether you're a community member, you know, that that we have served and we have done a lot of things and we've done a lot of difficult things.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: And some of us have done very, very hard things, and some of us haven't come back from those those things.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: And we have to, we all as a community like live with all of the all of the things that have happened.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so they they start to add up, right?
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: They start to add up whether you think you um and then you try to bury it.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: You try to bury it and stuff it down.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: And when that doesn't help mentally, right, sometimes we go to substances or other things to help cope with those things.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: So um it's you know, in the line of work that I do with veterans, for example, now and the work that I've done with the Ohio National Guard, either as a service member or um in the prevention world, you know, there's there's kind of a theme.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and it starts with young people who um don't learn how to how to cope with things very well, they don't have the healthy coping skills, and so and some of them end up uh dying by suicide because they have relationship issues, they have other issues in their life.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so we have to be able to set the foundation for those young people to serve and be resilient and move forward in their lives and understand that it's it's okay to ask for help.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um and the families too, like the families go through a lot of things.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: Families go through many, many things.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: They have to endure deployments, they have to endure their uh service member gone, they have to wonder if they're gonna come back, they have to take care of children, they have to balance their own careers perhaps.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so there's a lot of different things um that it that we endure.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's I think it's just best to to to engage and reach out and not be afraid to, I guess, is the other thing.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I think sometimes they're afraid to ask or to talk.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but just maybe, you know, just reach out.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: If you know a military family, reach out.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: Just say, how are you doing?
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: Jason and Sean, I'm thinking about both of you and that um you were part of a video that we put together from the the ruckwalk from uh what a few weeks ago.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_02: And both of you said something that Nicole just touched on, and that is and and and we hear more and more veterans and and men and women uh currently serving saying it's okay not to be okay.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_04: You know, if you think about how how we treat certain things in life, we have different rules.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_04: So we were never shame someone for knowing how to swim when they fall into the water.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_04: But yet we look at people differently when they ask for help when they need help.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_04: It's the same thing.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_04: It's like taking care of yourself.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_04: But we create these unique criteria for how we address that.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, bridging the gap between civilians and veterans, I think, is uh an important topic.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_03: Uh it comes down to communication, you know, just asking questions and having a conversation.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_03: That stigma of am I labeled damaged goods?
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_03: And uh it's important for for me as a veteran, for for us as veterans, I'm I'm assuming that uh that because I'm a veteran, I fall into this category of damaged goods or PTSD or all of the things.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_03: And um, you know, there's so much relatability to civilians with that regard.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_03: You know, trauma is trauma, you know, and it's all a matter of of perspective.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_03: And uh, you know, your trauma is different than my trauma, but it's all the same.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_03: And uh what a wonderful opportunity to to relate and have a conversation around that and and share successes and share challenges and and understand that uh you know, we're just navigating this human experience together.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: Can I also add too, I think um as a pro as a clinician, as a LPCC, I think the other thing I would say, if there's any providers listening, that you know, be become uh military culture competent.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: And um if you know, if you there's star behavioral health providers, I'll put a plug in for that.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a great way to get training, uh free CEs and get training to become more culturally competent, military cultural competent uh through the Star Behavioral Health Training or through any other opportunities for the VA and other uh resources that are out there.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: So um that's another way for providers to be to help veterans as well.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_02: When each of you left the military and started that that integration into civilian life, um, what were the challenges there?
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_02: Sean, do you mind starting us off?
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_03: Uh sure.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I categorized that into a couple different phases for me.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um I had come off of active duty uh my first tour in the late 90s and uh and transitioned into the Ohio National Guard, you know, the plan of the GI Bill and college and all that stuff actually worked out well.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um and then there was the phase kind of post-9-11 and post-global war on terror uh coming out of that phase.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_03: Again, the the transition wasn't too bad uh with with some semblance of a of a plan.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_03: And and uh, but my hardest transition was after retirement, and that was the loss of identity.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, I think for me, uh retiring and getting rid of all of the accesses and the dot-mill, you know, email accounts and just all of the things and putting the uniform away, there was this sense of loss of identity that I found myself desperately holding on to uh after I retired in 2016.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_03: And like, you know, what's what's next?
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_03: You know, am I a soldier?
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_03: Am I a Green Beret?
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_03: You know, just all of the all of those identities.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_03: And um and as I struggled with that in those first couple of years, um I found myself uh needing to cope to some degree, you know, and those coping mechanisms became addictive behaviors and such.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I probably fell into the category of highly functional within those uh behaviors, but uh those began to evolve to a to a greater degree up until the pandemic era.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_03: And that's when I realized I'm really struggling here and I'm still transitioning and I'm still looking for a purpose.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_03: And what what is this purpose?
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_03: So um leaning into that uh was was very, very difficult.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um early transitions I think were easier because I still felt some connection to that identity, uh, to that purpose, to that mission.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and then when the realization of what's next began to dawn on me.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and again, that journey into the unknown, am I prepared?
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_03: You know, what what's going on here?
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_03: And I was raising, you know, three boys and and uh, you know, doing the suburban dad stuff.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_03: And am I good at this?
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_03: You know, will I still be able to do that?
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_03: You know, if I'm failing at this, does it mean I'm failing at that?
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_03: And just this uh feedback loop of um that inner critic became louder and louder.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so you know, lots of work for me uh with regard to you know mental health practices and techniques and um to calm that inner critic down and to basically give myself grace uh was a big part of my healing journey.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_02: Can we ask?
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, did you seek professional help?
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_02: Did you talk to a therapist or a counselor?
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_03: I did.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I did all of the kind of Western medicine, you know, um therapy, talk therapy, uh, but with both with the VA and on the civilian side.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_03: And uh yeah, I'm a bit of a knucklehead, so to speak, and you know, um think that I can figure it out myself and those sorts of things.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_03: And uh, you know, this therapist doesn't get me and they don't understand, and just all all of the all of the excuses.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_03: So in those early uh moments of of therapy and mental health work, I just wasn't ready.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I I still thought that I could figure it out myself and uh understanding that that uh although the ego uh very much served me, you know, uh early on in my career, that that ego was uh, you know, there's a saying that uh the ego is a wonderful servant, but a terrible master.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_03: And the realization that the ego was uh calling the shots uh uh and then uh understanding that and the awareness of that allowed me to navigate this human experience a little bit more balanced.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_03: But uh, and then there were some other opportunities for me uh with regards to mental health, um, both veteran retreats and holistic wellness retreats and some unconventional wellness retreats that uh I was able to take a part of.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_03: And it was is in the learning of uh of those retreats with others, uh, and the company of others that are suffering and um and this learning from each other's successes and challenges and each other's journeys.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_03: There's just so much wisdom we can learn from conversations with others, and then having the awareness to apply that and integrate that into our own healing journey uh has been where I has been my journey the last couple of years, and um which is what brings me to my purpose today is to uh continue to have conversations with others that are struggling, uh, just to help them realize that you know, give yourself grace and everything's happening for a reason and and continue to lean into being vulnerable and and communicating.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_04: So the biggest challenge for me was so and the the other two can uh can agree with this because they saw it too.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_04: In the military, everything is like missing mission essential.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_04: Like what what am I doing that impacts the unit readiness?
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_04: So you're always focused on the bigger picture and not just yourself.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_04: And that's just instilled in you from the beginning in the military.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_04: And when you leave, you realize that is not how civilians think.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_04: And so sometimes you I find myself getting frustrated, like you know, guys, gals, we're we're we're getting worried about the things that don't matter.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_04: Like, how does this impact the bigger picture?
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_04: And it took about a year for me to realize it's because that's not what they're trained on.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_04: And I think we all have to remind ourselves that that we can't blame people for what they don't know.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_04: But we can't force our beliefs on them as well.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_04: So even though I've been out for six years, that's still a struggle sometimes because I find myself not understanding why people are impacted by the little things.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_04: But it's like that's because of training in the military.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: I would totally agree um with what Sean and Jason have said.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I think for me, um I think it like that it goes back to the identity.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's a big thing.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um because the veteran identity is a sh it's a strong thing.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's a it's a great thing that can serve you well and it's something that can bite you later on too.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: And you know it's got on both sides of the spectrum.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: But I was a mentor in um at the Marysville reformatory and um and that identity was there in in for with women who are incarcerated.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean so that that goes far.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: It reaches far.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: And and sometimes that's that can serve you well like I said and it helps you because when you're with other veterans.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean I work um I remember when I started back at the recovery center and I started this job supporting a veteran treatment court for Fairfield County and the probation I was introduced to the probation officer who was an Air Force veteran and it you know it's just you just click you know so you veterans just click with other veterans.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: It just it just happens and so that's that's one thing that's great when you're in a civilian community that you can still click with other veterans.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: But I think for me I had several different transitions.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: I had a transition from active duty to pure civilian life and then I often had um transitions within the National Guard for example over the course of my deployments coming back from a deployment back into the active guard um you know my active guard job into the people that um so it was almost like a civilian transition but um but just a little different.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: And um and then the final transition as a you know when I retired out of the National Guard and military service completely.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: And through all of those transitions I would say whether they were you know specifically to civilian life or not um they were difficult.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: They were just difficult because even your own fellow veterans sometimes don't get what you went through back uh when they're back here and you were wherever you were doing whatever you were doing.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes you can kind of feel like I know when I came back from the NCR, I felt like I went from being a hero to a zero.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: And um and that was difficult.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I had a lot of career choices to make at that point in time.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: And um and that was one of the times that I felt at my lowest was transitioning back from that deployment.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: And that was actually I'll admit that's a time where I had a lot of suicidal thoughts and I finally realized I had to go get some help because um I wasn't gonna navigate this by myself.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: And um and the other time I think I saw mental health was um at the end of my deployment to Kuwait I was just getting so frustrated you get so angry and so frustrated even with your own team that you're just like I just need somebody else to talk to that isn't going to that is in my unit that you know even if it's just that so those were some of the times that I sought um mental health assistance.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: And um and so those are so that's why I think it's important for us to realize that talking to a counselor is is is just someone else to talk to sometimes and and sometimes you need more evidence-based therapy um in EMDR or whatever but if you just also just need someone to talk to that is not going to give you advice or tell you what to do but just give you something um some non-judgmental space to speak to that's that's what what I recommend to people too.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah transitioning is difficult again throughout all of our careers and um and I think that being able to recognize when you need help is also really important because we can fall into alcohol use and substance use we can fall into those unhealthy coping skills and we need to find better ways to support each other when we even when we leave the military service we really should um I think we need to stay connected.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's our it's our tribe and that's that's something that being connected with other veterans can be also very helpful.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: How do you stay connected to the the the veteran community?
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: Well that's a good question.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know that I've navigated that very well sometimes it's just by virtue of you know some of the people I work with now who are um you know like the probation officer I work with or um the veteran uh mentor who's in our court system um you know or just getting invited to some of these things and connecting with other fellow veterans or just running into them uh when I was at Ohio State and we were you know honored at the Ohio State game of just reconnecting with some of the people from uh ROTC that I was in uh at Ohio State with but I don't know it's a good question I can't say that I've done a good job of it myself.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well I I wanna I want to point out uh that what Nicole is talking about um the she has been inducted into the Ohio State University ROTC Hall of Fame.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: Congratulations thank you and they had a they had a a ceremony during the military appreciation game between Ohio State and UCLA.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: So congratulations Nicole that's great Jason we know that you stay connected because well you kind of have to with your job here at OSPF.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_02: So to follow up on Stephanie's question talk about that connection staying connected and uh connected uh with with men and women in uniform or who wore the uniform.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_04: So I have to be honest that outside of my role I am like Nicole where I don't really connect with veterans outside of my full-time job where I've like kind of close that off by choice but on my the work side uh I do serve as the um co-lead for the Ohio Governor's challenge team uh with a good friend of mine Danny Eakins over the Higher Department of Veteran Services and part of our job is obviously connecting with other veterans which is why I have another relationship with Nicole outside uh of the military it's because she was a part of that before moving to her new position.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_04: So it is our job to stay connected and inform the state of Ohio about the great resources that our veterans have while also working with the other states and territories on their governor's challenge team as well.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_02: Sean how about staying connected do you want to touch on that?
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_03: 90 plus percent of my mission now is uh not only staying connected but connecting others um and to Jason's point and Nicole's point too uh in the beginning uh of my transition after retirement uh simply connecting with other veterans as as goofy as it sounds was very triggering uh to be around other veterans and uh kind of this sharing of stories and sharing of challenges and successes and all of those things were uh as much as I probably needed it at the time, it was more triggering than it was beneficial for me.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_03: And I found myself in you know constantly comparing or remembering or or wanting you know the good old days type stuff.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_03: And uh and in the last couple of years of of my healing journey I'm realizing that connection is the catalyst to healing you know community is that catalyst to healing and uh and we have to to stay connected and and we have to be vulnerable.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_03: And uh so in that effort of connectedness um I'm lucky enough to be a part of of several you know veteran mental health groups and and several uh veteran uh outdoor groups and uh you know athletic event groups and uh just a lot of uh connectedness in the outdoor space uh and in the activity space uh not so much just sitting around in a circle and sharing feelings and stuff which there's nothing wrong with that uh but it's like hey let's get out and get moving uh in nature and let's unplug and let's uh you know the more we disconnect from that uh from those unnatural environments just allows us to connect even deeper in the natural environment and uh that's where I see so much more healing and uh and and in those moments of connecting uh particularly in these in these outdoor elements um it creates this safe space you know it creates this container of trust and uh and you see that you know you can see that in the other veterans that show up and they show up a little bit hesitant they show up a little bit like you know I don't really know who these people are and what their background is and all these things but um as the conversations uh begin to manifest and that trust begins to develop you see the the walls of that vulnerability start to show I mean you see the vulnerability uh begin to emanate and in that is where the healing begins and the conversations will go from this is a great event you know I love you know running or rucking or riding my bike or or whatever but you know it's been really rough for me the past few weeks or you know it's hard for me to communicate with my wife or it's hard for me to do this with my kid and uh you know I I can't shake this memory of my deployment from 15 years ago or whatever.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_03: And we just hold space for those.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_03: Uh to Nicole's point earlier it's not about giving advice or telling somebody, hey, everything's going to be okay.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_03: It's just I'm here to listen, you know, I'm going to listen to you and I'm going to uh listen with compassion and empathy.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_03: And with that I believe uh it begins to strengthen this ability for those that are suffering to begin to trust and trust others, uh trust their own story, uh trust that they can share their story and uh and all of these elements are just this ingredients to healing and ingredients to peace.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well as we start to wrap it up if you could each tell us a little bit about what you would tell what your current self, your older, your older, more experienced self not that anyone's old not that anyone's old here.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: What would you tell your younger selves um when you're first beginning your military career Jason?
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_04: Well first I would smile and then I would laugh and there's a reason why I would laugh because I would remind myself to give myself some grace.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_04: Like we try to like speed the process up when we're younger and not realizing that there's so many external factors that we can't control.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_04: But at the same time you can control how you react or respond to those external factors.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_04: So most important thing give yourself some grace.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah I think to Sean's point too, you know, we're human beings but we're always human doings and um we don't spend a lot of time just enjoying the moment.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: I I know just to even touch on what Sean said just a minute ago when I left the military I couldn't feel my body you know like you didn't know how much how many aches and pains that you had in your body until it is just the adrenaline started to leave you after 20 some odd years and you just start to notice that.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so looking back at my uh younger self, I would say just just enjoy the things that you're doing.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: Just take time to savor them.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_00: You're always in a hurry and you always got to do the next thing and you're always on a time hack and everything's got to be synchronized and and your life becomes that way.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes we just need to slow down and enjoy the the the savor the moments that we have with these other people that we're doing these difficult things with and also give yourself grace and um and also for me just don't doubt yourself.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like a lot of times I I doubted um doubted myself a lot and um and I shouldn't have done that.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd just like to tell myself to not do that.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah a couple things come to mind um I think it's be more present and do not force and uh and with those two you know we're constantly thinking of achieving the next rank you know achieving the next specialty school achieving the next thing you know we're always uh which is good you know I you know it's it's good to have a plan and a purpose and and all those things but to not forget to be in in the present moment uh and and really enjoy what's what's happening now and uh as I look back with hindsight and again hindsight is just this wild you know superpower that can be both beautiful and and and very um uh create struggle but uh as I look back on all of the things that I try to force in my career it is the forcing of doing that thing or forcing that achievement uh is where I realized lots of suffering came with that and to go more with the flow and to lean more into my own into intuition and and to trust myself versus forcing uh uh these decisions um just leaning more into into the intuition of it all the first um therapist I had um at a college uh had at a real rough spot in my life and went to a gentleman his name was John and he said after we got through several sessions he said you're pushing the river don't push the river but that was what he was talking about you're just you're just forcing things you know and you're grinding and just it's a guiding light for me.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_02: So I appreciate you sharing that Sean Thanks to all of you for sharing everything that you did.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_02: These are all just great great notes to end on thank you all for your service to our country and for continuing to be just a shining light of resilience of empathy and of care.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_01: And to our listeners thank you as well when you listen to our episodes you break stigmas break barriers and you care about mental health and saving lives.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_01: This is Voices for Suicide Prevention brought to you by the Ohio Suicide Prevention Foundation