Latest / Sid & Friends In The Morning / Gordon Chang | Author & Geopolitics Expert Speaks on High-Stakes U.S.-China Artificial Intelligence Race

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Gordon Chang | Author & Geopolitics Expert Speaks on High-Stakes U.S.-China Artificial Intelligence Race · Sid & Friends In The Morning

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Here he is, and you must follow him on Twitter,
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: at Gordon G. Chang, my dear friend Gordon, who's never
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: late and never not shows up. So I'm glad you're here, Gordon.
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: Everything okay?
• 0:13
  Speaker 3: We're in California, and I got the time difference wrong,
• 0:17
  Speaker 3: and so apologies, Sid.
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: Oh my God, it's only 6.47 in the morning. Why
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: did Lydia do that to you?
• 0:24
  Speaker 3: Well, because we love being on your show, and we
• 0:27
  Speaker 3: will wake up at any hour.
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: Oh, thank you, Gordon. You actually do mean that, and
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: I love you for saying that. Thank you.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: Well, look, it's an important conversation today. I actually do
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: need you. This AI stuff, I don't know anything about it.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: I mean, I know enough about it where I can
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: talk about it with you and Charlie Gaspino, but this
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: fear that if it gets out of control, AI can, quote,
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: destroy the world. I have no idea, Gordon Chang, in
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: practical terms, practical terms, how that could happen.
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: Could it happen?
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: Well, it's possible, but not likely. Now, the way it's
• 1:06
  Speaker 3: possible is you've got artificial intelligence, and at some point
• 1:09
  Speaker 3: it's going to be smarter than we are. If you
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: put it into a humanoid robot, they can run faster
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: than we can, they can jump higher than we can. Then, yeah,
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  Speaker 3: I get a little bit worried. But we're humans, and
• 1:23
  Speaker 3: we can deal with this. But the point is, there's
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  Speaker 3: a lot of fear-mongering, and this idea that it could
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: take us down in six months, that's just wrong. I mean, yes,
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: it could turn off the lights, but no, it's not
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: going to cause the extinction of humanity.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: But isn't China, or you and I have these conversations regularly,
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: For seven years. Isn't China already capable? Haven't they already
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: done this with cyber attacks? Shut off lights, gotten into
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  Speaker 1: our water systems, into our electrical grids.
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: Hasn't that already happened?
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  Speaker 3: Yes, it has. And the Iranians did this a couple
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: of years ago when they got into, for instance, the
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: water system of Aliquippa, Pennsylvania, which is a small town
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: near Pittsburgh. So, yeah, the Chinese, the Iranians, the Russians,
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: they've hit hospitals. They have hit electric grids, water systems,
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  Speaker 3: as I just mentioned. They're in our networks, millions of
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  Speaker 3: Chinese cyber attacks a day.
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I know.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: Come on, a million times with the airlines.
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: It's all them.
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  Speaker 1: So, you know, I guess AI will take it further
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: and make it even worse. But it's not like they're
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: going to do something we haven't seen before. And I
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: got to tell you, again, as a novice with this,
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: I'm with President Trump. There's no way in a million years,
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: even with the possible dangers, I'm going to be okay
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: with China beating us, the United States, in this race.
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: By the way, I'm not okay with any country beating
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: us in any race, but certainly not China with AI.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: Isn't Trump right?
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  Speaker 3: Trump is 100% right. When Trump said, whoever wins AI wins,
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: he was absolutely correct, because this is such a powerful technology.
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  Speaker 3: The country that dominates AI will dominate the economy. They'll
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: dominate military. They'll dominate every phase of life. So Americans
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: need to get behind our president on this because, you know,
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: as bad as people may think AI is, AI in
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  Speaker 3: the hands of a totalitarian state like China is going
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: to be much worse. The only way we are going
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: to have AI work for humanity is if Americans dominate it.
• 3:41
  Speaker 3: If we put our safeguards in it we get the
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: world to adopt our AI models, we'll be okay, Sid. But,
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: you know, these standards aren't going to emerge if China
• 3:52
  Speaker 3: controls AI.
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: Now, I got a buddy, and he sits on these
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: Pentagon meetings all the time, and I don't think I'm
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: telling you information that's classified.
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: I don't think so. But he says to me, he goes, Sid,
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: we're already fighting our wars, Iran, with AI.
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  Speaker 1: You know, the days of a bunch of generals sitting
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: around for hours and hours and hours and hours doesn't
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  Speaker 1: happen that way. So we're already we've already been utilizing
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  Speaker 1: AI in our military for years. So, yeah, to make
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  Speaker 1: it better, improve it, especially for us, because we're not
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  Speaker 1: an evil country like some of our rivals like China
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  Speaker 1: makes a whole bunch of sense. But I know you
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: know this. We're already using it.
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we're already using it. And also, you know, when
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: you look at every business, every business of any size
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  Speaker 3: uses AI. So it's there and it has tremendous benefits
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: for the world. So what we have are some people
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: who want to control others. They believe in government controlling everything. And,
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  Speaker 3: you know, I won't name names other than to say
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: there's an independent senator from Vermont who wants to stop
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: the United States from AI at all. So clearly we
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: have got to understand that President Trump is right. We've
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: got to continue. We cannot allow our enemies to control
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  Speaker 3: the world's most powerful technology. It's as simple as that.
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: That senator, I know he's an older guy, and I
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: felt bad saying this, but I don't. He's a douchebag,
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: and I will say his name. His name is Bernie Sanders. But,
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: you know, getting back to the United States versus China
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: in this war... There is a lot of people who
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: believe that it's not about that, that really the Democrats,
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: Gordon Chang, I know Elon Musk has jumped in and
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: he may.
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  Speaker 2: Not be a Democrat.
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
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  Speaker 1: I think he is, to be honest. But I know
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  Speaker 1: he was with Trump and Doge. I think he's a Democrat.
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: But their argument is it's the Democrats. You just said him.
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  Speaker 1: Bernie Sanders is yelling and screaming. Barack Obama is yelling
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: and screaming. So the Democrats are running out of time.
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  Speaker 1: real policy to fight the Republicans on come midterms outside
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: of Trump and Iran, Trump and Iran, and the hating
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: on Israel.
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: They love hating on Israel, which is so grotesque. That's
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: what they do. This, it seems to be.
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: Gordon, their new battle cry, their new policy war with
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: the Republicans. Do you believe that's what the Democrats are
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: actually doing?
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: Yes, I do. And by the way, I'm not a
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: Republican and I will say it's the Democrats. Um, And
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: the problem is that they believe in big government. They
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: don't believe in independent entities in society like businesses. And
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: they want to control us. So, yeah, it's absolutely 100
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: percent wrong. And they're doing China's work on this. I mean,
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  Speaker 3: I'm not saying they're pro-communist because there are some Republicans
• 6:49
  Speaker 3: who do the same thing. You know, their messaging is
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: in line with Beijing's. But in this case, on AI,
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: which is the most important question facing the American public,
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: the Democrats are lining up with Beijing on this. And
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  Speaker 3: because Beijing knows that it is far behind the United
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: States on AI. Yes, Chinese frontier models are only months
• 7:12
  Speaker 3: behind our frontier models, but we are so far ahead
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: in AI infrastructure. So, for instance, in compute processing power,
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: we had in April... 5,427 data centers. The Chinese, how
• 7:28
  Speaker 3: many did they have, Sid? It was 449. Wow. So
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: just to give you an example why this matters, in July,
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  Speaker 3: the Chinese released a stunningly good AI model, Kimi K3.
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  Speaker 3: But Moonshot AI, the company behind it, they could not
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  Speaker 3: allow any more subscriptions for Kimi K3 because they didn't
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  Speaker 3: have the compute. That shows you we are so far
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: ahead of the Chinese, and there's a lot of defeatism
• 7:56
  Speaker 3: in this country. President Trump is absolutely right on AI.
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: So what do you think happens? I think September 24th
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: is a very big day. Not the same day that
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: Bibi comes from Israel and President Xi comes from China.
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  Speaker 1: I think it's the same day. So he's supposed to
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: be here in less than two weeks. Last time we
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: saw those two guys together, it was a home game
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  Speaker 1: for China, you remember. And then Trump came back and
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: not long after that had this conference that he played
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: around the world on network TV about how China basically
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: rigged the 2020 election. So now they come here. Again,
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  Speaker 1: I think it's the 24th. What do you think happens?
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  Speaker 1: What's the dynamic between Trump and Xi when he gets here?
• 8:40
  Speaker 3: Oh, wow. I wish I knew the answer to that question.
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  Speaker 3: Because there's so much going on that we cannot see.
• 8:49
  Speaker 3: My sense is, and it's just a guess, that the
• 8:53
  Speaker 3: Chinese don't compromise very much. They don't give Trump very much.
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: And the reason is Xi Jinping's in trouble at home.
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: He's not healthy. He doesn't feel that he can give
• 9:04
  Speaker 3: an inch. And so they'll do things and they'll announce
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: some stuff, but it really won't be substantive. It'll be
• 9:12
  Speaker 3: there sort of like, OK, we're going to extend the
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: trade truce that I can see happening. You know, the
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: Chinese might announce a few agreements, but they will not
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: be agreements that they will adhere to.
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: I agree. It's like Iran. Same thing. They'll comply to something.
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: They'll never adhere to it. And on the final 60 seconds,
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: China is still helping Iran, you believe, yes?
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: Oh, yeah. I mean, the Chinese satellite was providing targeting
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: data that killed three Americans in Jordan in July. This
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: was after Chinese targeting data killed six Americans on March
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: 1st in Kuwait. You know, there are rumors, you know, Sid,
• 9:49
  Speaker 3: that that Chinese satellite that broke apart three days ago
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  Speaker 3: that uh... that was about the same time that the
• 9:55
  Speaker 3: secretary of the air force announced the u.s. had offensive
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: space weapons people are guessing that we actually took that
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: satellite down. I don't know, but I hope we did,
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: because that's the perfect way to start a summit with
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: Xi Jinping.
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: I love that, too. Well, listen, I know it's very
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: early in the morning, but it didn't matter. You were
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: brilliant again. You're always great.
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: Gordon G. Chang on Twitter. Do yourself a favor. Follow
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: my man today. Gordon Chang, you're amazing.
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: Not good, great. Thank you so much.
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: And I'll try to wake up earlier next time.
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: You were really great. Enjoy California. Thank you, my friend. Bye. Bye-bye.
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: Gordon Chang right there on Sid and Friends in the morning.
• 10:35
  Speaker 4: Thanks for listening to Sid and Friends in the morning.
• 10:38
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• 10:41
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• 10:44
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• 10:59
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• 11:02
  Speaker 4: so you never have to wonder.
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: What the heck is going on here?