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Working Through Menopause · Mental Health Matters

• 0:11
  SPEAKER_04: Hello and welcome to Mental Health Masters.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_04: I'm Dr.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_02: Audrey Time and I'm Judith Croze here.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_04: And this is the show where we talk about all things, mental health, and well-being, but there are no hot topics, no quick fixes, just expert-led conversation.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_04: Now you'll have to excuse my voice.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_04: It's croaky too, but it is kind of relevant because today's topic is menopause.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_04: Now, I'm not saying a croaky voice isn't going to do menopause, but today's discussion is all about working through symptoms that women might be experiencing.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_04: And we have got Magic Kapoor joining us.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_04: She's the founder of M for menopause, and the topic is working through menopause.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_04: So when it comes to any form of symptoms that you're experiencing, yes, do you think we as women find it more um common to want to just push through rather than saying, right, I'm going to take some time off?
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yes, a million percent, absolutely.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: But why?
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: Why is it?
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_02: Oh it's such a big question.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: I just think it's expected, that's all.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's, you know, women are traditionally seen as multitaskers, as the the one that looks after the household.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: I remember as a child, it just made me remember actually, when my mum had flu and she was in bed for something like two weeks, it felt like the world had ended because because she wasn't around.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: So and we were all like, oh, what do we do?
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: What do we do?
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: It so maybe it's that kind of thing.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's that the the woman of the household, maybe, or you know, if if if they're a mum as well, maybe they're just kind of expected without it being spoken about to to carry on.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_04: So you've got that societal expectation, which then puts your own little critical inner voice in your own head saying, Well, you can't stop, you've got to keep going.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_04: And of course, a lot of women leave work because of menopause symptoms because they're not performing to the level that they want to perform.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and that's another problem as well, because there it comes with it a sense of shame.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_04: I can't do as much as I feel I should.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_04: Whereas sometimes it's about adjusting our goalposts, perhaps, with with our bodies and achieving more, and that's what today's conversation is about.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_04: So let's bring on Madhu.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome Madhu to the show.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's really nice to have you here.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you very much for inviting me.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, you're really well.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_04: I'm so looking forward to this.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_03: I've been getting in touch with you for quite a bit and you didn't end up doing October, so yeah, I'm really happy that I'm here.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: Brilliant, yeah, looking forward to chatting.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: So before we kind of dive into your work and what you do, um, can you give us an insight into your personal journey and how that's brought you to doing what you do now?
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, um, so basically, I worked for a government department.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_03: I worked with them for over 20 years, and I've got a HR background, and the last years of working with the department was as a recruitment specialist, and basically I sort of worked independently, very confident in what I did.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_03: I actually loved what I did, so um I was very happy in the work that I was actually doing, meeting external partners, working with them, working with employers, in sort of um making sure that we were getting people back into work, but the employers were working with us as well, as well as working with councils.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so I've got to say I did love that job.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_03: So basically, um in my early 40s, my daughters were getting older.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_03: It was a great time for me to think about what I wanted to do with my life, you know, yeah, get promoted, move forward, um, start dating my husband again because it was our time was always like for me, it was more important that the girls were comfortable, it was all working around the kids, yes, doing the after school clubs, everything like that.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_03: But it just started changing, and so I was quite excited the fact that I was in my 40s.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um but basically uh I just started to change slowly.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_03: I um I wasn't a vain person, but I was quite happy that my skin was always okay.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_03: I never sort of had blotches of uh you know, blotches exploding on my face, you know, here and there, or if I was on my periods or anything like that.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_03: So skin-wise, I was happy with it.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_03: Was just things started to change, and it was my nails changing.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I never used to get regular manicures done, but you know, I was quite content in how I looked or anything like that.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and that's when I started to go to my GP pretty regularly, and um, no conversations about um, it was just tests getting done to see if I was lacking in anything, and I actually just assumed that as well, that it must be something, and it was nothing like that.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um tests came back fine, so I just left, and then it was a slow process of my symptoms changing and progressing very slowly but impacting my mental health, impacting me internally about how I felt about myself.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_03: I wasn't that confident person anymore.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_05: Oh no.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_03: The meet at work, the meetings that I would attend would be um, my brain would be like sponge.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm you know, being a South Asian woman, working for a government department, and you're surrounded by lots of different people, as in men but as well as females, but you know they've got an opinion anyway.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_03: So in as I was changing, it was impacting my confidence, the anxiety that I didn't even know what anxiety was, um, but I was I would have this gut feeling in my stomach that I just didn't want to go to the breakfast meetings um because I couldn't remember what they were saying, and I because I was representing the government department, I had to make sure that we were building the continued building that relationship.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so I just didn't feel good in myself, didn't reach out to anyone at work, and then what my symptoms were it was not sleeping at nights, having the night sweats, yes, it makes sense.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_03: And the night sweats were I would be drenched, absolutely drenched.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_03: Two o'clock in the morning, I'd be wide awake.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: And this was in your early 40s, yeah.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_03: So gosh that would be about mid-40s now, I would say.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_03: And it was just frustrat I was just frustrated because I couldn't sleep, and I knew I was tired.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_03: There's so much in it because like not sleeping makes everything else worse.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so my anxiety at night at that time between two and six in the morning would impact me so badly the fact that I didn't do something right, I started to do something wrong, I missed something at work.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_03: It would be all these thoughts that would be happening in my mind, and that just impacted me even more in my confidence and how I was.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't approach anyone at work.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_03: Another um scenario I want to give you was a few years later, we had so many changes in management in the area that I worked in.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_03: So at that time I'm thinking, okay, I can't keep up with this.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_03: Basically, work was impacted, but that impacted my home life in how I felt about myself.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_03: Being a mother, it's like my life was for my girls.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_03: I gave birth because I wanted children, I wanted to make sure those children were always happy.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_03: And when the perimenopause, when I was going through the check with with my symptoms, it really changed me in that I didn't care.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_03: And I felt so guilty the fact that I felt like that when I wanted my daughters to be, you know, yeah, yeah.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't I honestly thought um the menopause, the umbrella word of menopause was that yeah, my periods would stop.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, they'll stop instantly.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_03: This obviously I was very naive.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think we all are we're learning more about it now.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I think we all are.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we were very I was very naive as to that you know, that the periods would start and have some hot flushes.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_03: It's fine, I love the warmth, so you know I'll be alright.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_03: What everyone around me or the women around me, you know, why they're putting their head out the window or having a fan near them.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_03: Look at it, it's just a hot flush, you know.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_03: No one ever spoke about the other issues that you can actually have with the menopause because we've hidden it.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, and this very bring this really sort of brings you me on to your work, yeah, and and how you started your um for menopause, which I think is fantastic.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_04: Let me tell us a little bit about that.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, we'll we'll then go on to the reasoning in the workplace.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_03: Sorry, the reason I started it was when I was going through what I went through, I ended up leaving work.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and the reason I ended up leaving work was I just couldn't cope.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and it was a small trigger.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_03: So I did sorry, that I did reach out.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_03: One thing I wanted to say was I eventually reached out to my manager.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_03: She was a female manager, similar age to me, so I thought, okay, she might understand that I'm not sleeping, I'm having these migraines, I'm not coping with my health and whatever.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um, that she might have noticed some changes so she would understand.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_03: So I made sure that I spoke to her when no one, when she wasn't busy, when you know she had another meeting to attend or anything like that.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_03: I approached her and her conversation was about the targets, what we have to do.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_03: So it took me all giving me all that strength to speak, and it just put me back in to a halt.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_03: So it was months later, something happened at work.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_03: I came back home, I was so annoyed and frustrated the next morning.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_03: I woke up and I said, I just want to hand in my notes.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_03: And my husband was shocked because they never ever thought that I would leave work.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_03: So, so from that experience and other experiences is why I've actually started amphenopause because when I left work I went further downhill, but it's because of my daughter, because one day my daughter literally said to me, She goes, Um, you do realise I know you're faking it because you are waking up sad and you're going to bed sad, so you need to get help.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_03: It was that that made me realise that there's gonna be so many women out there in the same situation as me.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_03: I've got women surround, I'm surrounded by women.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_03: None of us are talking about the menopause.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_03: So it was from that step on that I decided to, because I've got the HR background, yes, to educate employers to ensure that they know, you know, to ensure that, not that they get it right, but that they start to be comfortable talking about, you know, supporting their uh employees about menopause.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_03: For them to realize that everyone is different in what they go through.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_03: And I think if you have one standard processing to support someone, it's not going to work for everyone.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_03: In everyone, you know, with regarding um periods, girls are impacted, individuals are impacted.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um, if they menstruate each month, and it could be where they have to take time off work, and it's that impact that it could be not even two days, it could be a week where they're impacted.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_03: And if management can understand that, yeah, it can make a difference on absenteeism, on the conversations that you start having at work.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_03: Because if you open the conversation, it makes it much easier for the employee not to lie about why they're actually off sale.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_04: Which brings me on to your talk framework.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_04: You've developed a framework to get those conversations going.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_04: Can you talk me through that, please?
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_03: So T is to take your mental health, to take your mental health and physical health seriously.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_03: None of us do that.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_03: And if we can start doing that, that would make a difference.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_03: So I've got a case study in there, I've got an exercise in there that hopefully individuals can actually do.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_03: A is to ask for help.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_03: How do we ask for help?
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_03: How do we build our confidence in asking for help and be brave enough to sort of break that with family, with uh work, medical professionals, you know, it's how do we do that?
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_03: And then L is learning to prioritize ourselves because we're always at the end of the list, or we're always worrying about everyone else.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_03: We've always got try to have that smile, um, you know, and we haven't um, you know, I look at some women that were widows in their seven, you know, in the 70s and they were Asian, in how they had children, they carried on, may not have worked, but they just carried on and stayed silent.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_03: And it makes me just wonder what they must have gone through internally as they're bringing their children up.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um so I think it's learning to prioritize yourself, I feel, is really important, and I think sometimes we as women think it's a selfish thing to do when it's not, if we can just put boundaries in place and everyone knows what those boundaries are.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and the last part it's even worth, it's even harder, it's trying to keep up that momentum to remind people what you're actually going through and you still need help because when you're talking to your family at home, a week or so later they forget, yeah, and it'll go back to normal.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_03: So it's having that energy, that motivation to actually still remind them what you're going through, and it's the same at work and as well as with your GP as well.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_04: Very, very important points.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_04: We are keeping Madhu, and we'll be back just after some tips from one of our previous guest experts.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: I've been doing menopause stuff now for quite a few years.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I I'm I've always been a community worker who incorporates menopause with regards to my work because I realise it had a massive impact on the lifestyle and the health experience of older women.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: And it's been that for five years, and I still go to meetings and talks and whatever, but the conversation has evolved.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: Now, women talk about all these meetings, aren't just about menopause, they incorporate other uh health issues around the hormones of women and the future is opened out for women to learn about all the other things, hormone influencing things that happen with women.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: So menopause has been an influencer with regards to women's health, older women's health.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: Traditionally, younger women's health was a topic of conversation around you know pregnancy and all those particular things.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: But menopause has about a strong interest in women talking about the quality of health and lives of older women, and women who very often are ignored or not included in the health conversation.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: How do you think we can get more menopause conversations into the workplace where it's a safe place to talk about things?
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm not a HR expert, and I think it's really important that our human resources department is trained up in understanding menopause and other female hormonal health issues.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um also, like yourself, Amanda, people who are able to um liaise with employees to help HR, human resources, and employees work together to understand the menopause journey.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: But it's about training management, and it's also about training management to understand the value of older women.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: So in some spaces, women uh older women are being put into job positions, but they're actually being exploited.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: So they're being underpaid, um, and also they do take a box, so we it's how many women we have and whatever.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: So sometimes women are being put into certain positions in work, but they're not being valued the way they should be.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: But what I learned in digital is that diversity is the the key skill in innovation, and if you're recruiting to fit the whole time, you lack innovation.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: And although they all talk about diversity, look at their demographs.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, are they all red brick?
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: Are they all ex-university?
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: I did see an advert the other day um from a uh I think it was on a UK site that they insisted on um a degree, and I thought, well, I haven't seen that in a very long time because we all know that having a degree doesn't guarantee you're gonna be good at a job, you know.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's about recruiters being more open to the fact that when you bring in a youngster that's got you know sort of super great um technical knowledge, uh, you know, an older woman that's got you know sort of experience in her sector but doesn't want to do full-time, when you can really foster that um diverse population, that is when you get a very engaged, a very committed, and a very driven workforce.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_04: Welcome back to Mental Health Matters.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_04: We are having a really deep conversation with Medicapoor who has founded M for menopause.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_04: It's a really eye-opening discussion because there are so many things about menopause that we don't think about, um including how organisations are a bit like, oh, you can get your own help, but actually it can be women who can afford to get HIV and so on that can be it's easier for them somehow.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_04: Um now something that you mentioned earlier was that there was a shame in your you felt shame in your performance, so you quit your job.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_04: Now, this is something that I've heard.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_04: Women seem to prefer to leave their jobs um rather than experience all of that.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_04: So, yeah, what would you say to that statement?
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_03: Firstly, I would say women don't prefer to leave their jobs when you've worked, when you've given your life to your employer, um we're at that, you know, we're in 2026.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, we do deserve to have some sort of well-being support from our employers when you actually are there, maybe it's eight hours a day.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, yeah, you know, eight hours a day, they're there most of the time.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um, sometimes women if they definitely don't prefer to leave.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_03: I am listening to so many women that are teachers that are leaving because they are not supported, and I just think it's and some of them are you know assistants and whatever, but people women don't prefer to leave because you know, if you're mature, you're you know what you want.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_03: Can you imagine a put an employer putting a person on a performance review because they are not doing what they should be doing, they've not had a conversation about what they're going through.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_03: Their symptoms are gonna increase even more because they've been put on a performance review.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_03: If an employer can understand what so that's why I mean it's like you know, if you've had an employee that's committed and loyal to you, something's not right and something's changed, you would think that they would actually ask.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_03: You'd hope.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, you would hope, you know, um, and also you know, and then when all of these physical symptoms are have are happening, they're low in confidence, they're not feeling right within themselves, they probably themselves don't know what's happening to them because it there might not be any conversations happening at work.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_05: Yes, yes.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, and it's the annoying thing about when women do leave work or they reduce their hours, right, to make it better, but you can actually reduce your hours hopefully on a short-term basis, have a plan in place to actually um see how it's going.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_03: And if they do, for example, take time off work rather than taking sick leave, or if they take sick, you know, they're sick because of what's happening to them, there's things that the employer can actually do check in with your employee, making sure that oh, what they said they're going to do, have they done?
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: That just showing them that you're interested, you remember what they've said, can make a difference for that employee.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um, if they're burnt out, they are going to leave because it's because not a preference, it's because they are not coping with their health.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_03: In the impact that that can actually have on women is financial impact as well as their confidence, the ability, how they feel about themselves, that what what is their worth, what is their value, and then the other thing is what I found out you know later on in years was your pension.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_03: The impact on your pension.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it can't be.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_03: You know, hopefully, if women start realising, you know, there's things that can be done for them to be supported, and everyone does it, it's not just the woman's responsibility, it's it's everyone around them that could support them.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, and so you've you've talked you talked about getting tailored support for people, so psychological and medical tailored support.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: So what kind of interventions might there be available for people?
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_03: There is intervention out there.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I know it's difficult with the NHS with the pressures that they are actually under, but that's why we've there's there are people that are working from grassroots, making sure that they're working in the community, trying to educate, increase awareness.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_03: I've done two talks this week, one with MenCAP with learning disabilities, as well as with an Iranian um community yesterday.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_03: And it's important to try and get into the communities to work in the community, but the site, but the regarding a particular person or any individual, it depends on the individual as to what support they actually need.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_03: Do they need mental health support?
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_03: Do they need to speak to someone who might be a cognitive behavioural therapist or any other type of counselling that they might need?
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_03: It's sort of them working it out with their GP, what it is they actually, what they are actually going through.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_03: So that's the place to start, GP.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_03: I would say it would be the GP.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_03: And maybe even talk to some family members, if need be, who they trust that could support this trust point, and I you brought it up earlier, and I want to play that one back because it takes courage to stand up and say something in the first place.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_04: What if you've then got a HR or a female leader, female leader who says, just get over it?
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_04: Get over it.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_04: I didn't I didn't have any problems.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_04: Why are you complaining about it?
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_04: How do we deal with that sort of behaviour?
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_03: What I would say is don't do what I did and leave work.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_03: Question if there is any other, if there is support, if the if that female leader has actually said that, look into what your organization does.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_03: Because I know organizations are doing things.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, not everyone knows about it.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, true.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_03: So it's making sure that you actually do um do so, you know, that you look into it.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe there's someone else that you can speak to.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_03: There might be someone you might have a well-being team, speak to that well-being team.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um regarding the female leader, it's actually I've had women say to me who are similar age to me, why am I doing it?
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_03: And what I've learned is because they've not gone through what I've gone through.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_03: And if we have women thinking on those terms, what about everyone else that we're saying that needs to be supporting their partner, their mother, their sister, their daughter, you know?
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_03: It's we need everyone to start understanding because we're aware that medication is about, you know, it's been invented by male people or you know, males.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_03: Female bodies work differently, South Asian bodies work differently, black women's bodies work differently.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_03: We're not all, we haven't all got the same genes or anything like that.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_03: And for a female leader to say that, I would tell them to honestly bite their tongue before they say anything like that.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_03: Because shocking, isn't it?
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_03: It's just you know, women should be supporting women, yeah.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and they need to be educated.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_03: That obviously things haven't been put into place in the workplace, and it's looking at what can actually be done.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_03: If that female person um, if there's nothing at work, maybe that female individual can get flyers or get leaflets or something and start bringing it into work, or they might have a well-being team.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_03: If that organization has a well-being day, or they've had someone coming in doing a talk, and that female person is gone to speak to the female leader, then what was the point of doing that?
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, if it's not worked, yeah, yeah.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_04: So it and I think it is about finding our voice to actually challenge some of those beliefs because again, we talk about women supporting women and so on, but dismissing it shouldn't be anyone dismissing anybody exactly, but yeah, we need to we need to look at ourselves as well and look at our own behaviours.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you spoke about going to the communities, which I think is really important.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_04: How do you address the communities where menopause are even talking about periods?
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_04: It's a bit of a taboo.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_03: It is, it's difficult.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I'm not gonna say it's easy.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_03: I've been into um a Gurdwara, into faith places, and it was a really small group.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_03: And one thing that was interesting, it was the priests that came to the talk.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_03: The women that were in their 70s said, Oh, we don't need to come.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm trying to explain to them, you might have a daughter-in-law, you may have a daughter, you know, your granddaughter might be going through something.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so it's break it honestly, it's step by step.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_03: Keep doing it, it's keep doing it.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um, as I said, I you know, have I've I'm sort of um working in the community, just trying to break it, even if it's little by little, policies change things, what's happening in the community.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um, hopefully, social prescribing.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_03: I'm hoping that'll be doing social prescribing in Barnet because I think if I can reduce the pressure on a GP to talk about the different stages of menopause or anything like that, I'm preparing women before they go there to be better prepared to make sure that they get an outcome from their GP will make all the difference.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_02: You know, how would you involve husbands and partners and also not just about the symptoms and how it affects um women, but if it leads to big changes in in your life, you know, if you have to go part-time, that's going to affect the whole family.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_03: That's it.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_03: It comes down, I would say, to how you communicate at home.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_03: What are conversations like at home?
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um are you all on the same level?
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_03: In having enabling, you know, in able to have these conversations.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um I would definitely say it's communication.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_03: How do you communicate?
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_03: Think about that.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_03: And um it's important to start having conversations about anything and everything at home.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_03: Don't hide if you're on your periods or your daughters are on their periods.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_03: It's the way it is.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_03: What I've done in my in my guest toilet is I've got a box there in I've written period pads.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_03: So even if the men go in the guest room in the toilet, they come out and they'll have a conversation about it.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_03: So it's just these if you can start having conversations.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um, maybe you might need to have separate conversations with your children, or maybe with your partner, or you have it all together.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_03: You can do it how whatever is going to work for you.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_02: Just normalizing that.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's just normalizing that conversation and start bringing leaflets home and just saying, Oh, look, I'm just learning about this, or you know, learning about menopause.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't realise there were all these symptoms because of a period and the impact it's having on, you know, or if your daughter's suffering, it's having these conversations as to what is it we can do, how do we get her help, how do we get her support, and the other thing about um making sure that we have this conversation is because you had said, um Audrey, the fact that people can't afford to go privately.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, my GP had said to me, Oh, go on herbal medication.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_03: I was paying, this was 10 years ago, yeah.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_03: So it was like 60 70 pounds a month.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, how is that it didn't because I think I was well into it.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_03: It didn't, I needed that, I needed HRT.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but it's the fact that if if we work in the community and we have conversations at home, you could get help from your family at home.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_03: You might need to change a routine.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_03: So, like if at home you've got a a routine of everyone's coming back from work, food has to be ready.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_03: I used that if if you can't do that, don't do that.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_03: Speak to your family and just say, I'm not coping today, I'm not managing today.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_03: Can we can you all help me?
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_03: Or shall we just get a takeout?
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_03: Something like that.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_03: But if everyone helps, that makes a difference.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_03: Think of what can actually help you as well as your family together.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_03: Don't put yourself last on the list.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_03: Make sure you're communicating and you're having conversations.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, a lovely way to kind of wrap up really change your environment or a happy one.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_02: It's a really nice, positive um way to kind of look at the situation and and and change your living environment into something that you're you know you're able to cope with.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's been a fascinating discussion.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_02: Where can we learn more about you and what you do?
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm I've got my website which is www.empomenopause.co.uk um and I'm on LinkedIn with my name Madhuka Paul.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_03: It's a bit confusing actually, because and then Instagram is at empomenopause.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_03: Brilliant.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um I'm very I'm not always sort of full on doing an activity on social media or anything like that.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_02: But people can find you and yeah, and they can get in touch with me.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_03: I've got my email address as well, um, which is info at empomenopause.co.uk.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_03: Sorry, I had to remember that, but I'll give that to you.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_04: Amazing, we'll put that in the show notes.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_04: Let's head over to test the trend.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_03: So, one simple tip that I would like to give employers is to increase the awareness.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_03: Make sure management are trained.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_03: If you do do internal training, think about having an external person coming in to educating, training, increasing awareness because employees may be more comfortable in having a conversation with that trainer.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_03: And one final thing I just want to say is have conversations about anything and everything, about women's health.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um, make sure if an employee is you're noticing that an employee is changing, ask them if everything's okay.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_03: Even if they don't respond and say everything's fine, ask again another time.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_03: Just say that you might have noticed some sort of change in them.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and that's the reason why you're actually asking.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_03: And just have conversations at work about menstruation and um menopause.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_03: Don't sort of run away from it because you really don't need to.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_03: If you put simple steps in place in the short term, in the long term, your organization is going to be performing really well.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_02: Nice conversation.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_02: It was it was really nice because um it was so personal.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, as you already said, so many people resonate.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_02: I think people resonate with so many people.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I think this is the thing.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_04: I don't think we realize actually when somebody talks about their own experience, you do sort of go, oh, I've had a bit of that.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_04: Or you know, these there's certain little elements, mental health side of things, talking to your family, the extra pressures that you might have.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_04: It's really good to hear people are going through stuff.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and it just struck me that it, you know, this happens to 50% of the population.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_02: Something like four billion people will go through this, and yeah, it's something that we don't talk about.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I was thinking as as we were talking, I was thinking, why is that?
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I wondered if it was something to do with um the fact that it's you know, it's because we're getting old, and no one likes to talk about getting old.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't know, but anyway, either way, it needs to be talked about much, much, much more.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_04: Because if we talk about it, we also get helpful hints and tips, and we we learn things like, oh, I can't speak to somebody about that, or if my line manager won't talk to me, then somebody else might still talk to me.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_04: One thing I found out, which was quite funny, and I so I'm I'm taking um any version of HRT, what I didn't realise until I went to the pharmacy, and somebody in the queue said this to me.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_04: She said, You can get a certificate for that.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_04: So I can actually get my HRT on a prepaid prescription certificate, which I didn't realise you could get.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_04: I thought you could only get it for contraceptives.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_05: Wow, okay.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_04: And so filled it in paid something like um eight pounds or something.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_04: It was nothing really.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_04: And now I've got it free.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, and and you feel better had we not had the conversation.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_02: No, exactly.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_02: So your doctor didn't.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_02: No, exactly.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_02: That's really strange.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_04: So I think it's really important to speak up.
• 37:20
  unknown: Yeah, definitely.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_04: But yes, it I mean uh the other thing I I think I took from this is how many people are running scared from it.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's a great phrase to use.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I wonder, I don't know what well Maggie said that her line manager was was a similar age, but if it's something she hasn't personally experienced, I wonder if it's not just a lack of empathy about it, but a fear.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_02: She doesn't want to talk about it because she's thinking, oh, that's all the calm, I don't want to know.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_02: And so that was that.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_02: But but to deflect the conversation and talk about targets, it's just yeah, that really stuck with me.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that's the thing, when somebody plucks up the courage to speak, yeah, it is really, really tough.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_04: They've been through a lot already.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_04: So we do need to also listen.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_04: And on that, from all of us here at Middle Health Matters, have a healthy week.