Latest / Outside The Therapy Room / Episode 64 - The Mental Health Power of Play with Claudia Gracias

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Episode 64 - The Mental Health Power of Play with Claudia Gracias · Outside The Therapy Room

• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: As well as personal experiences and reflection.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: All in the hope of normalizing our humanness and helping you see that you're not alone.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: This is Outside the Therapy Room.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: Hi everyone.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to Outside the Therapy Room.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: Today we are joined by Claudia, who is one of our intern's turned associates later this month.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: Hi Claudia, how are you?
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: Greetings.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: I am doing really well today.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: How are you?
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm good, thank you.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so happy to have you on here.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: What drew me to you as an intern was your experience working with kids in like an educational school place, but also like more in a therapeutic space.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: And you came with so much knowledge on play therapy and just, you know, some really fun, interactive, creative ways to engage kiddos in therapy.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's our kind of topic today.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: But before we dive into that, can you tell us a little bit about yourself?
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh, so I'm Claudia.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: I am just finishing my internship um through Wilford Gloria University at the end of this month.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so moving into the role of an associate here at New Moon.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I've been working with like youth and adults for a really long time.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: I won't age myself, but it's been a while.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um and um more, I guess more specifically, I've been working with like kids and youth um since about like um 2019.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: I um started working in childcare and really fell in love with it, and um that sort of led me um to where I am today.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I'm excited to be here.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's amazing.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: And we always um like to ask our first-time guests a little bit about themselves outside their profession or outside the therapy space.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, can you share a little bit about yourself if you're comfortable?
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I live with my family here in Kitchener.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we have a dog and a couple cats, so um no children of my own, um, which probably allows me to do my work a little bit more effectively.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um and um yeah, I kind of grew up in this area, UKW C, and um live here, work here, play here.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I really like a lot of like outdoors sort of stuff.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: So if I'm not indoors, you'll find me like out in the yard, hiking, going on adventures with my dog or solo.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and usually you'll find me doing something like playful or creative.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I'm fill my day with like little play opportunities.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: So if you were to observe me at home, I'm always doing something weird and something that looks interesting and fun.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I bring a lot of like play into work, but then I also do a lot of that at home and it helps keep me grounded and feeling more like myself.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, we'll get into this in the podcast, but I think play sometimes we really associate it with kids.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and there's so much play that us as adults can really get into too.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: But we will talk about that after.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think, you know, today, like I said, we associate play with childhood.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but play isn't just, you know, something to pass the time.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: It can also be very educational.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: There can be a lot of emotion regulation that can happen or that can be learned through play.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: And it's actually an, I think it's like an essential part of our emotional development, of our creativity, kind of accessing that space, of our mental health, um, and kind of connection that we end up using throughout our lives.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: So it is like play.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, oh my God, what are you doing over there?
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: You're just playing.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: But there's so much that's actually happening within that time.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: So um, yeah, can you tell us a little bit about your work with children and play in a therapy setting or outside of a therapy setting?
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, okay, I think it maybe helps to sort of like, okay, what is play?
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: Because everyone I think is thinking maybe like toys or um like video games, those kinds of things.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: And that's part of play, but not like totally what it is.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: So, like one sort of definition I kind of like is that play is the joyful dance of the soul where imagination takes flight and worries tend to fade away.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's a celebration of innocence and freedom and creativity.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it reminds us that life's true magic lies in embracing wonder, expressing ourselves freely, and finding happiness in every moment of genuine fun.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that encompasses a lot of things.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think um how that translates into play therapy is um play is sort of there's lots of different tools like CBT, DBT.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and play sort of is its own modality.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's um evidence-based.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so basically what it is, play can be used in different ways.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: There's play therapy, and then there's more play-informed therapy, and then there's play in therapy.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: So play therapy, um play therapist has received um special postgraduate training.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they carry the certification of a play therapist.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um I am not a play therapist, but on my way to um doing the courses and um achieving that certification in a couple of years.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I tend to do more play-informed therapy, which looks a lot like regular play therapy, but it recognizes that I don't have that certification.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but a lot of the things that we do might look the same.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then there's also play that is used in therapy.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so that might look like more, you know, if um a therapist takes out like a Jenga or Connect 4 or, you know, you're playing marbles or something, play is being used in that case to sort of create comfort and a sense of calm and ease.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a tool to help the client kind of open up.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas in play therapy or play-informed therapy, play is the tool.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: So the actual playing is the work, um, playing is learning, playing is healing.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so just, you know, there is um, there can be like directed or non-directed, but basically the play itself is what the magic comes from.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I'll just also say that there is like child-led play therapy or child-directed play therapy and um therapist-led.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so child-led tends to be more non-directive.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: It looks more like what you would see kids doing like on a playground or at school or at home, just like free play.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they decide kind of how they want to play the game, they decide on the rules, what materials they want to bring into it, um, and the therapist is sort of joining them in that.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then if it's more um therapist-led, you'll see um maybe the therapist introducing a game, like for example, like Candyland, if they want to explore things like rules and boundaries and dealing with disappointment and loss.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so they'll kind of use the game with a purpose in mind.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas child-led play therapy, um, there is no, I have no agenda.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's what the child wants to bring out through their play.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm there sort of supporting it, but at no point am I like directing it or leading it.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's more like taking a step back and more observing how to support the child in their play and um following any directions or rules they want to give you.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: So it's more hands-off, if you think, if it's child-led.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but then versus um therapist-led, it might be you might see more worksheets or a little bit more guidance that way.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's really good.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: And it really draws a picture in terms of what it could look like in the therapy room with a kiddo.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but how I guess you know, why do you think play is such an effective therapeutic tool for children, whether it's therapist-led or children-led?
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think it is so effective because well, I mean, there's so many reasons.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um here.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess like one thing about play is that it is a universal language.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: So play is intrinsic.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: We see it in all cultures, we see it in children from every socioeconomic status, um, every ability, every belief, age, language, every um level of development.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: So it's very universal.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone, including adults, can find um ways to play that feel natural and sort of like liberating in themselves.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, play is also really effective because it's sort of, especially with younger children, children maybe under 12, um, it tends to be sort of their natural form of communication.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: So um younger children's ability to identify and articulate emotions is quite limited, especially during early childhood.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: So play provides a nonverbal way for them to express their needs.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: So if you think of it as like um play is um the language of children, and the toys end up being their words, if that makes sense.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um so because of that, play is really effective in helping children with emotional processing, um, working through things that are overwhelming or experiences they can't quite quite name yet.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's also a safe place for them to like experiment and take chances, maybe try things that are like a little bit risky or scary, um, and resolve conflicts and learn to build resilience, problem solving skills, all that while they're in the process of playing.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's also really great because it helps them develop other skills like coping skills, pro-social skills, um, problem solving, emotional regulation, and resilience.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: And then through that play, it's also helping children sort of develop a sense of who they are, the things that excite them, the things that interest them, um, their self-concept, self-esteem, um, and how they see themselves in the world relation to other people.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot of benefits, and you know, might look just like moving some dinosaurs or cars around, but there's a lot actually going on in a child's brain.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: And especially younger children, it's the play is literally rewiring their brain.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: So they're not just, you know, killing time or, you know, frivolously doing something.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: They're actually restructuring their brains, they're learning essential skills and they're learning how to regulate and exist in this kind of world that a lot of children might not feel designed for them to fit into.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's so much, right?
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: So much emotional, so much learning, so much skill development that is happening through play.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, you see it on social media.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like if a kiddo, and and uh us as therapists know, but like when a kiddo comes to you to a parent and says, Hey, can you come play with me?
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: Can you come play with me?
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: It might be in the most inconvenient time.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like that parent might be cooking and like finishing off work and like having a conversation with someone else.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: But that is the kiddo communicating a need.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I want to spend time with you, or you know, kind of becomes um their way of expressing something that they might not have the words for, as you pointed out, right?
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: Of like, hey, I'm needing a little bit of attention or I'm feeling a little bit lonely, the asking for play is that.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think for parents, sometimes it's like, oh my gosh, I don't have time to play with you, right?
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm so overwhelmed with all of these things.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: But if we look at it as this kiddo is trying to connect with me, how can I connect in a way that meets their needs, but also, you know, it is respectful of my own needs right now.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so it can be hard, but there's so much in, I mean, there's so much in play just from what you mentioned around like coping.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, um I'm sure you hear this a lot too, but some kiddos have a really hard time losing at games.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so that is a safe place, as you pointed out, playing a Candyland or whatever it is, it can kind of build up the coping tools of like, okay, how do we sit through this loss of like, we're really upset we lost this game.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it can be, it can be really, yeah, educational.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and in like the ECE kind of early childhood, child development world, we talk a lot about like playing is learning.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so if that kid is maybe coming to their parents saying, like, can you play with me?
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: What they're actually saying is like, can you connect with me?
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: Can you come and see what I'm doing and see that it's important and you know, validate that what I'm doing has value and matters to you.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, sometimes for parents, if you're like doing the dishes or making dinner, it can be really hard to kind of be like, Oh, I I really want to come, but I can't.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: But finding a way to communicate that with your kiddo, that you know, it's important and that you'll do it at some point, and not always just saying no.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're able to, as a parent, to just kind of drop what you're doing and go join, even five minutes is going to do wonders for that kid.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: And like we're saying, all those skills, but also like that sense of feeling loved and appreciated and important and special.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, with sort of coming and saying, like, hey, can you play with me?
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: Trying to think of it as like, hey, can you connect with me?
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: There's something that I need, a social emotional need, and I want you to help me sort that out.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, love that.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, since we're kind of talking a little bit about play therapy as well, what might a play therapy session look like for um a kiddo?
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: So if a kiddo is coming in to see you for play therapy, I know you mentioned like client-led, therapist led, but just is there like a kind of like uh steps, or I guess um is there somewhat of like a, you know, a routine that happens in session?
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it kind of depends on like the therapist's own style.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so like I'll describe kind of what I do.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um so we'll have sort of like the playroom sort of already set up um with various like toys and materials.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, usually if I'm meeting with a child for the first time, I will have done a consultation with them.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so learning things that they're interested in, like arts or what kind of games and trying to make sure that there's some of those things represented in the therapeutic space.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so when the child comes in, we sort of I like to sort of structure the session by saying, like, most of the things in here you can say or do are okay.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um basically, if there's anything you can't do, I'll let you know.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: But we'll face that when it comes.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: But basically, when you're in therapy room, um you can say or do almost anything you want to say or do.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so that opens the child up to be like, oh, okay, um, you know, sometimes they're often like, whoa, wait a second, what does that mean?
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: Or some kids just go and play right away.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um so usually I'll invite the child to kind of like orient to the room, we'll look around at what's in there together, you know, open the cupboards, take stuff off the shelves.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and sort of as we get to know each other, we're also getting to know this play space.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and thinking of it as like the environment there is like the the third person in the room.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: So, like in a learning in a classroom, the the environment ends up being the third teacher.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: And in the therapy space, it's kind of the same thing.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: So we want to make sure that that space, you know, the lighting, the temperature, um the things in the room, the colors, there's a variety of textures, sensory materials, all things that might appeal to kids of different abilities and ages.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so while they're looking around the room, they're starting to get ideas like what they might want to do.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then usually by this point, when we're like pulling stuff off the shelves, the child will find the thing that they want to do.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then we'll just kind of go from there.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um in the space, I usually stay pretty close to the child.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, if they're on one end of the room, I might go sit near them or with them.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and just making sure that I'm there so that I can be create this like therapeutic presence.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's not that they're playing on the other side of the room and I'm over here watching.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm with them, I'm, you know, looking, I'm observing, I'm, you know, um mirroring back their emotions, reflecting some of the things that they're doing and paying really close attention to um shifts in behavior, emotions, um, facial expressions, the type of play they're doing, whether it's like a more aggressive, more nurturing, we're looking for things like themes.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: And all this is kind of going on in the therapist's brain, and the kid is just, you know, making play-doh shapes or like digging in sand.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but then we're noticing the things they're doing.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like, for example, if they keep like burying and unburying like people, um it can, you know, um relate to say me like a death ritual or burials or some kind of loss.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's not always the case.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: We see kids burying the sand, we're like, oh, that's a death.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like that.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: But it starts to kind of themes start to emerge.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then based on your work with that kiddo and the things you had to learn about them, you'll start to put these ideas together.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it might just be that they like burying things or they want to be an archaeologist.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: There could be no trauma or anything attached.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's all of the things that the therapist is paying attention to, to like what the kids are doing merely for like pleasure and expression, what kinds of things they're doing to try to sort through emotions, any repetitive behaviors or repetitive games.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if kids, you know, are playing the same game over and over, it's an indication to us that they're trying to make sense of the situation that's happening.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: And for a lot of kids, that means talking about it a lot, acting it out a lot, playing it a lot.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so parents at home might see this and be like, oh no, my kids acting out these like scary kind of themes.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: And like, that's okay.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: They're trying to figure it out in the way that they know best with the skills that they have.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so these are all things the care therapist is kind of like looking at, um, like making mental notes of.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then at the end of the session, the child isn't responsible for cleaning the room.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, some therapists do this differently.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: I like the space to be for them to be able to do whatever they want.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: And typically that's not cleaning.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, some children, though, take a lot of sense of pride and value in helping the therapist clean up.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: So it's also attuning to what that child needs, adjusting um the environment, adjusting your response to make sure that the play is the focus, their expression is the focus, and not so much like who's going to clean this up, let's not be too messy.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, it's it's sort of kind of you're maintaining freedom.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but like you're giving the kiddo freedom.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: And within like within that boundary, right?
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because I feel like with a lot of parents, we think that boundaries on kids is like telling them what not to do.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: And in this case, and in other parts of life, boundaries actually create the safety, like create the vessel for the kids to explore some of those more scary things.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why in the playroom, they're really encouraged to be messy, um, loud, move around, try something, you know, stop doing something, whatever they want.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: And the therapist is just there to kind of scaffold and help guide, but um, not to sort of interrupt or interject themselves.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that for a kid to just kind of have like this uh creative freedom to kind of express themselves in the way that they need to.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: And speaking of like, you know, certain play maybe scaring parents, or, you know, maybe it's like a really tough conversation, like a conversation about death.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm remembering like a Bluey episode when, you know, for parents who are just equally as obsessed with Bluey as I am, like there was an episode where a little bird died and Bluey saw it on a walk with his dad and they went and they took it to the vet.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: And unfortunately the little vet ended up saying that the little guy had passed.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then you see Bluey come home and play that, like reenact that in play with her little sister.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: And the mom was trying to be in play as the doctor and wanting to be like, Oh, I fixed the bird.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's okay.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: And Bluey was like, Well, no, actually, the bird has died.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: You have to tell me that.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so then the mom's like, Are you sure?
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, we we just experienced that a few hours ago.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like, are you sure?
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: And then, and then, you know, Bluey was like, Yeah, I'm sure.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so it is sometimes a kid's way of processing certain different things in life.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: Even, you know, I've had it, you know, with my boys, superheroes is a big thing.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's always been a big theme when we are, you know, obsessed with superheroes.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I remember in their play when they were younger, they would sometimes reenact things that happened at school.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so, like, you know, this kiddo took my ball away.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, like, and then, you know, Spider-Man is coming in, and you know, Spider-Man is getting the ball back, and then it can just really start a lot of conversations outside of the therapy space, like with parents, to be like, oh, has that happened to you?
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how do you experience that?
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like your character here was like really upset that their ball got taken away.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like that would be very upsetting.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so, kind of just, yeah, like there's so much in play.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: My gosh, it's so powerful.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's not just like this little tiny thing that we do, you know, at recess or like for little short bursts.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's like something that's happening all the time and in different ways that we don't even recognize to.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean, you did answer this already, but why do you think play is so important for children's emotional development?
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think because, well, like play is intrinsic to children.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: It is like something that they can do without being shown how to do it without words.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, children that might have um physical disabilities or limitations can still find ways to play.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, sometimes we've seen videos of like fetuses in a womb kind of moving around.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, there's some theories that are like, this isn't for any purpose.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's just the fetus kind of having fun in there and, you know, learning about its body.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: And you know what I mean?
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like something that you can do just like from the moment you're born or before.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think that because of that, it's like children, it's like I'm saying their natural sort of language, and it creates this like sense of safety, things that they don't understand or things that are really big, it creates a way that is developmentally appropriate for them to start processing some of those ideas.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and they don't have to understand sort of what it is.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: They don't need to know what the names of emotions are.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: All they need to know is that that that's what they're feeling and express that through whatever play they want.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that part of what makes it so powerful is that every child is able to do it.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: Every child is able to find value in their own way that meets their needs.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they're able to like make sense of the world and also make sense of what's going on in their inner world and figure out how to translate that out in the rest of the world.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think play too is really essential for children building confidence and a positive sense of self because it's something that they enjoy.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's joyful, it's pleasure, it you know, is a hobby, it's things that they're good at, it's things that excite them.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: And all of those things are contributing to their social emotional development.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: So when a kid is outside playing, you know, if we see this at like a school, if there's a rain day and kids go outside, that social emotional development doesn't necessarily stop because they're not playing.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: And the play is what will help sort of facilitate it.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, sometimes sitting kids together and being like, let's let's problem solve isn't going to work so well.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, if you give them a pile of blocks um and tell them build something together, they'll find a way.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: The play is kind of like this universal language that they can all understand.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, children who speak different languages can still play together.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so, because of that universality, it allows them to meet those social emotional needs in however they're needing to meet them.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: So as long as children have those opportunities to play.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that requires like the recognition of how important it is to.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Not just their like physical or social development, but again, it's rewiring their brain.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's creating patterns that are going to be sustained throughout their lifetime.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so the importance of play, especially when they're younger, it can't be overemphasized.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think too, like in play, there's so much expression of like their imagination and creativity.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: So, what role does imagination play in emotion regulation?
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it plays a lot of roles.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of different ways that kids bring imagination into their play.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so one way could be um like fantasy compensation.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: So children can imagine different outcomes, um, giving them a sense of powered control over overwhelming situations or situations that they might feel really powerless in.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it allows them to experiment with roles using their imagination to try different identities and take on different perspectives and understand how other children might be feeling as well.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: Imagination also allows us to create distance from the problem.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so, like again, children can address topics that they might see happening in real life that might be a bit too scary to ask about.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they can try to sort that out through their imagination.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, imaginative play also helps a lot with problem solving because it encourages different solutions, flexible thinking, and resilience, trial and error when things don't work out.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, imagination also really helps too in um mastering experiences and regaining that sense of power.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um so, like I just mentioned, like it gives children a sense of power and control, it lets them be successful, um, and that contributes to building a really positive self-concept.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then imagination also helps um naturally elicit like joy and delight.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: You're doing things that are fun, you're being a superhero or unicorn or dog, or you know, it's something that um actually like really um makes you laugh, makes you feel like joyful for no reason.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so this idea of it's sort of in child development we call like broadening and building.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so we're taking that imaginative moment and we're trying to expand it and make it a little bigger.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so this shows that as we do this, it enhances that child's capacity for positive emotions, um, for dealing with other stressors in life.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: So the imagination kind of is like a safe way, like plays a safe way, but then imagination is another layer in there where they can sort of transcend some of those obstacles and barriers that exist in real life and allow them to take on roles that they might not ever be able to.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really empowering to them.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm even thinking about like imaginative play, like you know, for kids, that happens pretty early on, where they're imagining being a dinosaur or superhero or whatever it can be.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: But um, like Dungeons and Dragons, Magic, the Gathering, a lot of that is focused on really creating this fantasy imaginary world.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I've talked to clients, my son is now um really into DD.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but there's so much exactly what you said, right?
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: You imagine yourself being this character.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: And that comes with, you know, having like empathy for that, what that character may be going through and like a different kind of understanding, which can be really helpful when they get out and, you know, plant themselves back into the real world of, you know, having that same level of empathy for friends or an understanding as to why a friend may be behaving a certain way, or, you know, trying to problem solve together in more creative ways.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so yeah, I feel like, you know, seeing it with my kiddos, like that imaginative play is so important and just, you know, helping them understand themselves and the world a little bit better.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: And like sometimes I like to think of like borrowing, you know, your borrowing Spider-Man's strength, or um, you know what I mean?
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's like if you don't have that sort of bravery and courage, you can imagine that you have it through that character and then bring that into your life.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like as adults, that's not maybe something that we do, but for kids, you know what I mean?
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like harnessing the power of like whatever superhero or you know figure that you admire is actually going to be really helpful for them.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: You mentioned you mentioned something about, you know, the importance of having unstructured play.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but what do you think happens when kids don't have enough opportunities for this unstructured play?
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, it's it actually um there's a lot of sort of um not negative, but like consequences, things that um might not happen in terms of like development um or emotional processing.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um so unstructured play, um play where like maybe um an adult or someone else is telling you this is the game we're playing, these are the rules.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, say it's like a board game, but you have to follow it, you know, the child has no sort of um control over what those rules are.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, so structured play might be to um what you see in maybe like a kid's gym class or something, um, where the teacher's like, okay, today we're going to be playing dodgeball, these are the rules.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: They kind of line out who's on which teams, and then the kids play it.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: So um they're playing the game, but they're there's sort of like um an agenda.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: There is a start and end, and there's kind of like everyone has this kind of goal.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: The goal is to like get out the other team.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so that kind of takes all the creativity and freedom away from the children.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like the game will still be enjoyable, like who didn't like dodgeball?
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but they're not gonna get the same things because it's so structured and because it's so rigid, um, versus unstructured play.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it allows like unlimited emotional processing because they're getting to do the things that they want to do.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and they're getting to use play as the primary means of working through those experiences, whether positive or negative.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the unstructured play too allows them to sort of decide and be autonomous.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like, this is what I want to do, this is what it's gonna look like, these are the things I'm gonna need.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I think for kids, a lot of times in their life, they're kind of being told what to do, you know, schedules, like they're kind of given at school, you know, you have play time, but you know, again, that's very structured.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so having the opposite of that unstructured play that's truly free or truly liberating, um, can then also help with like um social emotional development, it can help with coping skills, physical development.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the unstructured play gives kids a chance to like plan and try things, um, and then maybe like realize that you know that game's not going to work, and so they have to go back.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so they're problem solving, they're being creative, they're working with others, they're collaborating.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: And all of this is happening because there are no rules, there is no agenda.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so, again, you get a lot of things from structured and unstructured play, but what you can get from the unstructured play is vastly different and far more expansive than what you can get through that structure, which is why uh in my practice I like to use more child led therapy again, because the possibilities for the child healing and development are much greater that way versus um the time sort of directing their play.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: No, that makes so much sense.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, as you said, there's benefits to both, but having that unstructured, I think also helps with the child's decision making.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: I know, again, at my house, my boys sometimes will like, I'm bored.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: I have nothing to do.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, go, go and just have that unstructured play, figure it out.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: If you guys want to play something independently, cool.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: If you guys want to play something together, cool, but I'm not you guys go do that and figure out what it is.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: So it can kind of give a lot more of that independence to figure out and problem solve for themselves as to how they want to fill up their time.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um what does yeah, what does healthy play look like for children?
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: Great question.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think it's like helpful to kind of think about like what maybe unhealthy play is.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and just in terms of like things like um where we're hurting each other, where we're um destructing property, where we're destructing toys, um, where the play is being used in a way um to intentionally hurt somebody.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: So like if you're playing dodgeball, using that ball to try to hit someone in a place that isn't safe.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I feel like we might see a lot of that.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: It often can look like a lot of bullying, um, but disguised as play.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, even things like excluding kids from a game who you were previously playing with, like that can also be um kind of an unhealthy way to play because it's not teaching kids that social emotional development, pro-social skills, but then it's also like excluding somebody from being with the rest of the group.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: So um I think that's helpful, especially when we're out in the world or when we see our kids playing out in the neighborhood, to notice maybe what some more unhealthy types of play would be.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, versus healthy play is where you hear kids laughing, you know, you see them smiling, you might hear screaming, um, you might see them like getting really big in terms of like their body um or their voices.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's something that you'll see that they just kind of fall into, you know what I mean?
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's something that they don't really have to um try to figure out because when you're playing in a healthy way, you're being led by joy, you're being led by um meeting your own needs.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like that looks a lot different than like, say, the sort of bullying or the more unhealthy play that we described.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: But it is important to notice too, especially in a therapeutic space, we might see play or like bully come out in like bully-like behaviors.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: And in the therapy room, that's a way that the child might be trying to make sense of maybe their role in peer relations or things that are happening to them or things that they're seeing.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so we also have to remember, too, like play, all play is normal, all play is beneficial.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: There are some that are more beneficial, and there's some that are harmful.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so remembering that maybe the more harmful forms of play, um, like bullying is something we figure out in the therapy room, and the more pro-social, the ones where we're showing kindness and empathy, those are the types of play that we promote out in the real world.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: But we need both, right?
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: We need to figure out sort of like those harder, heavier emotions, some of our darker thoughts and feelings too, so that we can come back into the rest of the world and be a little bit more balanced and realize that like those thoughts and those feelings are okay, but there's a place for that, right?
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: We're not going to bring that into our everyday lives.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that that's also really important too.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes play can look aggressive or, you know, what someone might say dangerous, but it's like an actual healthy way for them to release some of those scarier emotions.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so a therapist is trained to look at those things and recognize when the child is doing something that might be harming them or that might be harmful to, you know, their self-concept, self-esteem.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then they can also, you know, help guide and bring awareness to that type of play too, right?
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: So that the child is also being made aware of like, you know, this is um, this is something that's important in your life.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: This is something that you're trying to work through and encouraging, you know, them working through that rather than trying to be like, oh, don't play that, or like we don't do that here.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: And like that's not really gonna help them, especially in the playroom.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: Again, there's you can say or do almost anything you want to say or do.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: So that is the place where you can work through some of those kind of like this the scarier games or unhealthy forms of play or or the kinds of things that parents might see and like feel a bit concerned about.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I mean, with that, I guess my question is like, you know, we talked about the importance of child-led play.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: If in if there is child-led play and a parent is hearing some of these, you know, scarier, more aggressive things, like how can that parent be supportive in the child-led play without like fully taking over or using that as like an education moment of like, oh no, why is your, you know, why is your toy hurting that other toy?
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's not very kind, whatever it is.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like, like I guess what would your suggestion be so that yeah, parents don't end up taking over that kid's play and still validating that for the parents, like, yeah, that's concerning and that can be scary.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think um one of the more maybe beneficial things parents can do is just like observe and don't immediately um go with that feeling to like interrupt or shut it down.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like take a step back, um, notice how their play might be making you feel, whether it's triggering or activating something in you.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you need a moment to sort of regulate yourself, um, but also taking a step back and kind of looking around like, are they safe?
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: Are are they harming themselves?
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: Are they in imminent danger or is there like an imminent risk here?
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: Those things don't apply.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then it's really just observing sort of um maybe the comments that they're making, the gestures.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: You're not trying to like judge or label what they're doing, but maybe picking out little themes, like they keep um like playing with dolls, you know, giving them baths, putting those bad, those are more like caregiving themes.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, if you see a child who, you know, is being mean to the baby or something, this toy baby, um that doesn't necessarily mean that they're not caregiving, but they might be trying to explore sort of a different part of caregiving or a part that might feel scary to them.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I think as a parent, we're kind of looking at this, but we're not really judging it and saying, like, you know, that's, you know, that's um, that's oh, that's a sign of this, or you know what I mean?
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: Then using that color means that they're really angry.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like, we're not really doing that, but we're kind of trying to get curious about their process.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and when we see kids playing, we're only seeing this like little tiny piece of it, and there's all this other stuff going around.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think as a parent or a caregiver, you have to take that into consideration and that you're only getting this small little piece of the child's world, you're not going to fully understand it.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: And most parents aren't trained to recognize the kinds of things that a therapist is trained to recognize.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd say as a parent, observe and be curious.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, again, paying attention to safety.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: But then if there is anything that really is concerning, then maybe that's the time to like talk to a therapist.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think another thing too with kids' play is that when we start asking them questions while they're playing, interrupting them, that takes them out of that world.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: And really is it beneficial because now those questions are leading and directing and they have their own agenda and it's not free play anymore for the child.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I think for parents, like there might be this impulse to like get in there and you know, either interrupt something or get them to keep going.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: But we really have to remember that we're here to create the safe environment, right?
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: And to kind of hold the boundaries, but then take a step back, observe, and be curious about what you're seeing rather than trying to label it or um, you know, say, like, oh, jump to a conclusion, like, oh no, they're playing this way.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: That means they have this problem and now we need therapy.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's not so linear like that.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, and it can be hard too, because sometimes kids engage in things like risky play.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: So you might see that on the playground, jumping over boulders.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of parents can, you know, obviously um with good reason get concerned about their child's like physical safety.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: But the child being able to sort of test those boundaries, try things that are risky, you know, titrate how much of a risk they're taking, maybe a little bit more and a little bit less on some days, that is actually helping them build confidence.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's helping them on the truth to trust themselves, it's helping them to learn when to ask for help when they don't need it, how to assess risk for themselves.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: And you know what I mean?
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: So if we're interrupting that risky play, then we're interrupting all that other learning and all that other healing that might be happening in that moment.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um so yeah, it's it can be hard, and like especially when it looks really funny you want to get in there.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: But remembering, like there are times maybe when it's appropriate for you to join, and there are times where you just have to kind of hands off, step back, and just observe with curiosity.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, just a couple things to add here, too.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, while we want to emphasize child-led play, um, any play involving sexual touching, gestures, or explicit sexual themes requires immediate and gentle intervention.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so this isn't about punishment or shame.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: This is about calmly redirecting their play and setting a clear boundary.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe saying we don't play that way here, and then documenting what occurred.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: Sexual content in play might indicate that something inappropriate happened, and it might not.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: It could indicate exposure to inappropriate material, curiosity about the child's body or other bodies, confusion about boundaries, or it could indicate that something traumatic happened.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: Because we don't know, we want to make sure that we're documenting these incidents and then following up with a professional assessment, talking to your doctor or any other appropriate channels.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um the other thing is that when selecting play materials for children under the age of three, we want to make sure that we're selecting things that are age-appropriate, with no choking hazards, um, non-toxic if mouths are ingested, and free from any sharp edges.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: Just some safety considerations to make sure that they are able to play freely and safely and actually benefit.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love the like leaning with or leading with curiosity because that is such a helpful statement in so many places, but I think with kiddos especially.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: And kiddos are funny, they'll come in and they'll tell you something so matter-of-fact, and you're like, oh my god, what the heck did they just say about what's happening at school?
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, we end up building like filling in the blanks as parents, and leaning with curiosity actually allows one like interaction.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: So now we're like interacting with our kiddos, but it can also um, you know, just be a better approach to take to really understand what the kiddo is trying to explain instead of putting our own stuff on top of it.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard as a parent.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: I know it's it's hard sometimes because you know, my kiddos will come home from school and be like, oh, this and this happened.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, wait, what?
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: What do you mean?
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: Why did that happen?
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: You need to set your boundaries.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then it's like, well, wait a second, Yvonne, like relax, be more curious, ask a good question before going all mama bear on everyone.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, it can definitely be challenging.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, one thing that is interesting, and I think I said it in the beginning, is that play isn't just important for kids.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's beneficial for us as adults as well.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a lot that we can benefit from it too.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so, why do humans need play at every age?
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think for a lot of the same reasons that kids need it, actually, um, like potential health benefits.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what adult right now isn't seeing a state of the world and getting a little bit worried or maybe feeling a bit overwhelmed with stuff in your own life?
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like just like kids need an outlet to sort of sort through some of that stuff and to help sort of contrast all the stress of their life.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: Adults need that a lot too.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I think that as we get older, we start to kind of see play of like something that is like infantile.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: Kids do that, it's it's not productive, it's a waste of time.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and especially if you're stressed out, you know, the idea of going outside and blowing bubbles for five minutes might just like, you know, make you panic because then that's five minutes that you're wasting.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so what I think a lot of adults forget is that again, play is an intrinsic part of the human experience.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't go away just because we get older.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: And the therapeutic benefits or like powers that come with play don't end when we reach adulthood.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: So we still need it in our lives.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it can be just as important for adults, but in different ways than it is from children when they're younger.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: Again, bluey episode again.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, like of Bluey and Bingo involving dad in play.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it was like he was just born yesterday.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_00: So he had to pretend like he was just born yesterday.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_00: So he's being very curious about the things around him, like what is this green thing?
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a leaf.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: He's looking at it, everything.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: But by the end, they're done playing, and the mom is like, What's dad doing outside in the backyard?
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: Are you guys still playing born yesterday?
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like, No, but the dad really just like enjoyed that kind of viewing things and his world as if it was all brand new and because he was just born yesterday.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, there's so much um, you know, benefits that come from play.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I can speak for myself, but I'm sure there's a lot of parents in the world who maybe have also experienced this, but kind of like losing touch with play at some point in our lives because like real serious things were happening.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_00: School, work, you know, the beginning of like uh a lifelong relationship, and then like starting to have kids and everything, and some of that play starts or like is reintroduced when you have kids and you're playing with them and you're in that space and in that world, and suddenly you're like, oh my God, I missed this.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm jumping on the trampoline with my kiddos.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like, when's the last time I jumped on the trampoline?
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like all of these new things um that you can like that your kiddos kind of reintroduce into your life.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_00: But it is it is a lot of fun to kind of be in that.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: But what do you think happens?
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: I guess more adult focus.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what do you think happens psychologically when adults maybe stop playing?
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then when they start playing again.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, so when adults stop engaging in play, they often experience a rise in things like chronic stress, stress, emotional exhaustion, um, and like reduced mental flexibility.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so play therapy suggests that um without this like sort of purpose, purposeless, unstructured activity to help sort of reset your nervous system, adults can become overly identified with the stressors in life, the roles, responsibilities, and then that contributes to burnout, you know, rising cortisol levels, um decreased capacity for empathy and joy, and just this state of kind of like malaise, like you can't really figure out what's wrong, nothing, you know, you don't enjoy anything anymore.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so yeah, when adults start playing, we see rises in chronic stress and burnout.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, again, reduced imagination, flexibility, creativity.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we tend to see a lot of like um emotional disconnection from themselves and from others.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it can also lead to like decreased intimacy because play is also helping adults process emotions, including those fears and frustrations.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_01: And without that outlet, adults may struggle with their own emotional regulation.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, conflicts with a partner that might result in, you know, increased or decreased intimacy or loss of connection, um, and may basically a loss of curiosity and wonder within that like adult relationship.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so, you know, these are it's not just something that's affecting your home life, it's affecting like your mental health, it's affecting the people around you, um, and it's also affecting like your work.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know what I mean?
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just we think of like, oh, play might not be productive, but it might sometimes be the most productive thing you can do because it's going to positively benefit all these other aspects of your life.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I know as like a student, when I'm there's so many times where I felt like burnt out, and I would just like kind of close my laptop and go blow bubbles, or I have like ribbons around or like fabric fans to like do big arm movements.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and so when I'm stressed, sometimes I would just kind of walk away from that, move around.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's almost like when you, you know, maybe chat with a friend for five minutes and give you a bit of a pep talk, you come back to your work feeling different.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_01: The play or like whatever I'm doing helps to do that.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, sometimes I'm out of breath from just like waving ribbons around and you know, it helps to kind of de um decompress your nervous system enough so that you're able to come back and focus and then be more productive.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: And if if you were to follow me at home, you'd see me taking so many breaks throughout.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: My day, but that's because I need this bit of play to help balance out that stuff.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_01: And same with in the office, um, between clients, I always have enough time in between to you know reset and clean the therapy room, but also for my own self-regulation.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_01: I get to play and like draw on the whiteboard and make crafts, and you know what I mean?
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: I get to do that stuff too because it's helping me then show up for my clients and the people in my life a lot more fully.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_01: So um yeah, it can often be the thing that like pleasure can be the thing that we check off is like we don't have time for, but we have to remember that kind of like taking your vitamins, drinking water, play is essential to who you are and to your well-being, and it needs to be a part of your life.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and like two episodes ago, I think we were talking about self-discovery with Lacey, and we talked about kind of going back into our child selves.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so going back into like hobbies or things that we really enjoyed or things that we did, and kind of slowly starting to introduce some of those things back into our lives as adults.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I know, you know, again, like play through my kiddos has been just like organic, it's just kind of happened.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so like play-doh or playing with kinetic sand, playing board games, coloring, like having coloring contests where you have to like blindfoldedly like pick through colors and then draw your picture.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like all of those things are so fun.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and again, as you pointed out, when we are experiencing such high levels of stress, which like again, not to discount stress, like of course, there's so much crazy things happening, not only in the world, but like within our economy and finances.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, if you have a responsibility to your home and to your family, I can understand the amount of stress that somebody's engaging.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_00: And but as like the important thing that you brought out is like hold little space for that play, for the ability to kind of just be free and do what you need to do because it's going to help manage the stress.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to help avoid the feeling of burnout completely.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there's so many other benefits that it can have.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what are some of those mental health benefits of play for adults?
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, so we see obviously the the emotional sort of component, like stress reduction, um positive emotion generation.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, play can also lead to like catharsis.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_01: So this like safe release of stored emotions or tensions, um, things that you don't really realize.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, one day I had a big box out in my living room for my niece to play with, and my sister, older sister, gets in the box too, and she's like, wow, like I love in here.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_01: I want to decorate.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_01: She started putting lights in there, drawings, decorations.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_01: And she was like, I can't believe how much I love being in this box.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's because she hadn't done anything like that in a while and forgotten how much benefit there is into just have that moment of like joy and pleasure in play.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that like in that case, you could really see some sort of cathartic, catharsis moment happening for her.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and yeah, that not all the time, but like sometimes.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's also a lot of like cognitive benefits, so like problem solving, again, like flexible thinking, um, novel approaches using imagination, um, and breaking from sort of these rigid patterns that we get stuck in as adults.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then play also helps us take on different perspectives, thinking of like how someone else might use a toy or material versus how you might do it and trying it in different ways.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's also a lot of benefit for like the social, sort of relational um side of things.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_01: So enhanced relationships.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, when you're sharing play with someone, it strengthens that bond, it strengthens that connection.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but then also helps you build things like empathy.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it helps you reconnect to sort of like your forgotten self.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_01: And that might include even more empathy for people.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: That might include empathy for yourself.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so all of these little things that kind of get lost in adult responsibilities, it might help to sort of bring some of that out and then making it more capable for us to like relate to our children, to our coworkers, to our friends.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think maybe most importantly, and this is maybe for kids and for adults, is that the personal sort of benefits, right?
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_01: That resilience, building your capacity to cope with life's stress and to still find joy, um, the self-esteem that comes from it.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_01: So, like in um experiencing confidence, self-mastery, whether you're on your skateboard, whether you're playing a video game, whether you're making crafts, that is giving you this sense of satisfaction and completion that's coming from inside you and not from anyone else, that intrinsic sort of motivation.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then also I think play helps is sort of that internal locus of control, like your sense of agency, your sense of self-determination.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of things in life that adults have no control over, even though you know we think we will when we get older.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so play kind of gives us a way to kind of manage some of those things that we can't control.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_01: Because again, it's unstructured.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_01: We're doing the things we want, we're doing it for no benefit other than we enjoy it.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so yeah, that's that's really important for us.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, like, for example, if you're you know you're driving in a car, you're an adult, you don't have time for play.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_01: You might see someone with their window open and just like their hand sort of like riding the waves, kind of sticking their hand out.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's like a really simple form of play.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_01: Again, there's no purpose for it, you're just enjoying it, it's regulating, and it's something that isn't taking any more time.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that as adults, we kind of convince ourselves that play isn't important or we don't have time for it.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_01: But if we're sort of more intentional, there's a lot of little ways you might already be doing it and a lot of little ways you can easily kind of sprinkle it in so that you know it feels more like a lifestyle of play rather than something that you know you have to always, you know, do at a certain time.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that might happen at first, right?
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_01: And especially with parents and kiddos, you might um, like I always recommend a parent, you know, 10 minutes a day, 10 minutes of like focused, completely focused attention on your child.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_01: So like no phones, no screens, you're not talking to somebody else.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_01: You're with your kid doing what they want to do for those 10 minutes.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_01: They're in charge, they can pick the game, they can pick the rules, they can decide not to do it, but you're just kind of there with them.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, this is their playtime, but it's also doing a lot for you, your mental health, your connection with your child.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so, even though we're kind of doing it for the benefit of the child, there's also a lot of benefits for us as adults.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that, you know, as an adult or a parent trying to bring prey into your life, just maybe some more intentional, um mindful play with your children can be a way to get them what they need socially and emotionally, but also to get you the things you need too.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_01: So it doesn't have to be like hard or it doesn't have to be big.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, just again, the intention and like the willingness to add it in.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it doesn't have to be expensive.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like sometimes people too are like, oh, let's go and buy this or let's go and pay for this experience.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, no, sheet of paper, couple blocks, like you're good.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_00: Even pillows, like you're all good.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you're set.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_01: Well, well, and like the especially pillows, like so.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_01: In the ECE world, there's this big focus on loose parts.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so basically, loose parts are any open-ended material.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_01: It could be elastic bands, it could be rocks, it could be um pieces of carpet, it can be anything.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you open your junk drawer, um, if you have one of those with like coins in there, battery, like that could be a perfect example of loose parts.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so giving kids these sort of objects, it's stuff that's cheap, stuff that you don't have to spend money on.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_01: It often, like sometimes in my office I refer to as like sometimes it looks like garbage because it does, like, you know, um, paper towel rolls, empty boxes, like containers.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_00: This is what our kids bring.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like my kids would bring pockets full of rocks and sticks, and we'd be like, uh, you're not bringing those into the house.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like, we need to wash them.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_00: But really, like that is play.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_00: We all joke at like a kiddo's first or second birthday.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_00: They're not playing with the new sparkly toy, they're playing with the empty water bottle or with the bag or with the tissue paper.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_00: It is, it seems like garbage, but for them, it's like a brand new thing, which is money.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, because it's like completely open, yeah.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's like open-ended and unscripted.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_01: It can be whatever they want it to be.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's a perfect example of like you spent money on this toy, but that's not the money wasn't necessary for the kid to enjoy it.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like wrap up one of their existing toys in some newspaper or some flyers and like hide it somewhere.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_01: That creates like a little bit of a play.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, and we didn't spend any money on anything.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think if we look at play too as like just having these loose parts or open-ended materials, that can create a lot more opportunities for playing engagement than say having a video game console or tons of board games.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it can be done at no cost anytime.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_00: What are some other ways?
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_00: I know you already mentioned a couple, but what are some other way adults can reconnect with play in their own lives?
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe for those that don't have children or whose children are older and they're wanting to um kind of reconnect with play.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like what are what are some of those ways?
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so like I mentioned, like sticking your hand out the car window is just like a really I see so many people doing it, and I'm like, they're having a good time.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but finding like little moments.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_01: So for example, when I wash my hands, I try to use that as like a mindfulness opportunity.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but then it also becomes play, like you're feeling the texture of the soap suds.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes I give myself a few extra pumps of soap, and I don't know why I like to play this game where I like cover the entire surface of my hand to see if I can't see it.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, then just wipe it off, finish, you know, washing my hands and move on for the day.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_01: But pausing and doing that, again, there's no, there's no purpose.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_01: There is no goal.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's just something that I enjoy doing, um, you know, kind of making my hand look like a lizard or a snake, or you know what I mean?
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like just thinking um of doing something for no other benefit.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like there's a lot of little ways you can sneak that in.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it could be when you're um standing at a checkout line, like you could tap your foot to like the melody, a melody or like a song you're hearing, you know what I mean?
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_01: Just start swaying just for no reason.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if you're, you know, walking to the mailbox, I don't know if people still do that, um, or like standing at a bus stop, something I like to do, especially on ready days like this, is if there's like a little puddle, just like stick my toe in it and like splash for no reason, right?
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_01: Just little things that you're doing that are fun.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you know, it could be um whether you're folding laundry, you could be like tossing things around, you know what I mean?
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_01: There's little, little ways that you can take sort of the adult responsibilities, your chores, um, and make them more fun.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_01: So suddenly you have targets with your socks or you're shooting them into, you know, your hamper or like something like that that feels kind of goofy and silly, stuff that you might see younger folks doing, but that you might not normally do.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's like those kinds like do something that's like unexpected and unscripted, something that has no goal.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and often by doing that thing, we start to find those more playful moments in our lives.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, another one I really like is having bubbles for adults.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you can have those in your office or at home because I think a lot of times we forget to like take a breath.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you know, sometimes we forget, you know, to go outside for some fresh air.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_01: So bubbles is a really nice way.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_01: You can just pop out, take a few deep breaths, get some fresh air in your lungs, but then you're also letting out a lot of breath, stress, tension, and that can be really helpful too.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_01: And again, it can take one second.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_01: You could do it in your office, you could do it outside.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but again, it's something really little that doesn't take much out of your day to just throw in a little like playfulness or whimsy.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think once we start to do that, we'll notice that, like, hey, that that was kind of fun.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like tapping my toe and puddles is like one of my favorite things now.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_01: So fun, yeah.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_01: And nobody is nobody cares what you're doing.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody's watching you or being like that silly, or you know what I mean?
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_01: And we have to kind of let go of that as as adults and be like, this is for me.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, if you can tune out the rest of the world, or even if you have to do it by yourself sometimes, finding ways to like, you know, experiment with that more playful side is really essential to your well-being.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for some people, it is like you pointed out, right?
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like very vulnerable to kind of allow their child's life to come out in a very public place.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_00: There's like that fear of perception.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I'm I don't know why something that you said kind of brought up this like social media reel that has been going out, which is um like a man, I think, is like walking by a little kid who's like happily skipping along.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then when that kid passes, he kind of starts skipping and then like just to like give it a try.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think like that's so that's that's that person in that moment is like, oh, that looks like a lot of fun.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna try to do it.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_00: Not even knowing he was being recorded.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_00: But I think you know, something I tell my kids a lot because now cringe is like a big word.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, be cringe, just do it.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like, who cares?
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_00: If it's fun for you, do it.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, like I was swinging on the swing set with them the other day, and I like made a comment.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_00: And again, it was like, oh mummy, you're being so cringe.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, good, because I'm having fun or you know whatever.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think as adults, sometimes, like, yeah, we need to let go of the sphere of perception of what other people are gonna think about us and just kind of do the thing that we know is gonna feel good, like putting our little foot in puddle, like doing the wavy thing out the window with our hand, or skipping if we're going to the mailbox and we want a cup like to skip for a little bit, like doing it.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like throw in a twirl when you're doing the dishes.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like I find that when I'm cooking and in the kitchen, it's where I'm like my most like playful and dancing and jumping around.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_01: And you know what I mean?
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's just fun.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like still getting still getting my chores done, but like you know what I mean?
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_01: Prioritizing the like joy and pleasure side of adulting too.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_00: This was all so great.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_00: It was such a fun conversation.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what's one thing you wish parents understood about play?
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_00: Just kind of like a last minute thing to leave our listeners with.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think that play is essential.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_01: Play is um mental health care, play is suicide prevention, play is giving children a voice.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's liberating.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_01: Play is something we're born doing, play is something that evolves us throughout our lives.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_01: It is essential to who we are as human beings.
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_01: And whether it's children or adults, we need to remember that that is part of what it means to be human and it needs to be part of our lives too.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_01: So um, remember that it is in and of itself something that we need to do.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_01: Almost important was like breathing or drinking water.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_01: We also need to play and find joy and find ways to connect with that feeling of doing something just for the pleasure of doing it.
• 58:03
  unknown: Okay.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness, I want to invite all of our listeners to just do that.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_00: Do one little thing today that just brings you and your inner child that level of joy.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_00: And as you know, Claudia, as you've shared already, like there's so many examples and ideas that we've given listeners.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I really hope that some of you take that on and just like one little thing.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's it.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you so much, Claudia, for sharing all your insight today.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um you are accepting new clients, is that right?
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_01: I am, yeah, at New Moon.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I see a lot of children.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I have a lot of experience and a lot of my background is with children 12 and under, but I also love working with youth to have a lot of experience there and also see adults.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're an adult that wants to bring more playfulness into your life or not, um we might still be a good fit.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, if if you find that play is something um or just joy, reconnecting with that inner joy is something that you might benefit from, whether a child or an adult, um, come see me.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_00: And um, Claudia's offering free virtual consultations at New Moon if you kind of want to meet her, see if it's a good fit, all of those things.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_00: But we will add the links in our show notes.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_00: And Claudia, again, thank you so much.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, my pleasure.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_01: Anytime you want to play or talk about it, yeah, I'm I'm here.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_01: Let's go.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_00: Amazing.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, for our listeners, um, just remember to play.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's something fun to do.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_00: And make sure you follow us on Outside the Therapy Room and tune in next week, um, where we will be talking about triggers and glimmers.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_00: So we will see you all then.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_00: Take care.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_00: Bye.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening to Outside the Therapy Room.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_00: This podcast is intended for educational and entertainment purposes only.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_00: If you reside in Ontario and are interested in working with one of our therapists, please visit our website in the show notes.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_00: If you reside outside of Ontario, a quick Google search or search through psychology today will help you find a therapist near you.