Latest / Deep Transformation / Opening to Our Deepest Ground: Illuminating the Journey of Healing and Awakening (Part 2)

Transcript

Opening to Our Deepest Ground: Illuminating the Journey of Healing and Awakening (Part 2) · Deep Transformation

0:00
Dear,
0:01
dear
0:01
listener,
0:02
hi,
0:02
this
0:02
is
0:02
John
0:03
Dupuy.
0:03
I
0:03
want
0:03
to
0:04
ask
0:04
a
0:04
favor
0:04
of
0:04
you.
0:05
If
0:05
you
0:05
like
0:05
the
0:06
podcast
0:06
Deep
0:07
Transformation
0:07
and
0:08
you're
0:08
getting
0:08
a
0:08
lot
0:08
out
0:08
of
0:08
it,
0:09
could
0:09
you
0:09
please
0:09
help
0:10
us
0:10
by
0:10
going
0:10
to
0:11
wherever
0:11
you
0:11
get
0:11
your
0:12
podcast,
0:12
it's
0:12
a
0:13
Spotify
0:13
or
0:13
Apple
0:14
or
0:14
wherever
0:14
it
0:15
is,
0:15
and
0:15
write,
0:16
write
0:16
a
0:16
review
0:16
that
0:17
would
0:17
really
0:17
help
0:17
us
0:17
to
0:17
get
0:18
this
0:18
out.
0:18
We
0:19
really
0:19
believe
0:19
in
0:19
what
0:19
we're
0:19
doing
0:20
and
0:20
we're
0:20
really
0:21
praying
0:21
and
0:21
hoping
0:21
this
0:21
is
0:22
helping
0:22
people
0:22
and
0:22
being
0:23
part
0:23
of
0:23
the
0:23
solution.
0:24
So
0:24
if
0:24
you
0:24
could
0:24
do
0:24
that,
0:25
it
0:25
would
0:25
be
0:25
greatly
0:26
appreciated
0:27
by
0:27
Roger,
0:27
myself
0:28
and
0:28
our
0:28
team.
0:28
God
0:29
bless.
0:29
Thank
0:29
you.
0:30
Welcome
0:30
back
0:31
to
0:31
part
0:31
two
0:31
of
0:32
our
0:32
conversation
0:32
with
0:33
John
0:33
Prendergast,
0:34
spiritual
0:35
teacher
0:35
and
0:35
depth
0:36
psychologist,
0:37
where
0:37
we
0:37
continue
0:38
our
0:38
deep
0:39
dive
0:39
into
0:40
our
0:40
deepest
0:40
ground
0:41
of
0:41
being.
0:46
Welcome
0:46
to
0:47
Deep
0:47
Transformation.
0:48
Self,
0:49
Society,
0:50
Spirit,
0:51
life
0:51
enhancing,
0:52
paradigm
0:53
rattling
0:54
conversations
0:54
with
0:55
cutting
0:55
edge
0:55
thinkers,
0:56
contemplatives
0:57
and
0:58
activists.
0:59
With
0:59
Dr.
0:59
Roger
1:00
Walsh
1:00
and
1:01
John
1:01
Dupuy,
1:02
join
1:02
us
1:03
in
1:03
the
1:03
evolutionary
1:04
fast
1:04
lane
1:05
as
1:05
we
1:05
take
1:05
a
1:05
deep
1:06
dive
1:06
into
1:07
transformational
1:08
practice.
1:10
Peak
1:10
experience,
1:12
profound
1:13
understanding,
1:15
Powerful
1:15
contribution.
1:19
John,
1:19
I'd
1:19
love
1:19
to
1:20
move
1:20
into
1:21
another
1:21
topic
1:22
here.
1:22
And
1:22
that
1:23
is
1:23
one
1:23
of
1:23
your
1:23
chapters
1:24
in
1:24
your
1:24
book,
1:25
your
1:25
Deepest
1:25
Ground,
1:27
where
1:27
you
1:28
take
1:28
as
1:28
exemplars
1:29
of
1:30
two
1:30
kinds
1:30
of
1:30
approaches
1:31
to
1:31
the
1:32
psyche
1:32
and
1:33
our
1:33
depths.
1:34
And
1:34
you
1:34
take
1:35
the
1:35
exemplars
1:36
of
1:36
Carl
1:36
Jung
1:37
and
1:37
Ramana
1:38
Maharshi,
1:39
two
1:39
giants
1:41
of
1:42
what
1:43
should
1:43
we
1:43
call
1:43
them?
1:44
Explorations
1:45
of
1:45
the
1:46
most
1:46
profound
1:46
aspects
1:47
of
1:47
the
1:47
psyche.
1:49
So
1:50
maybe
1:50
you
1:50
could
1:50
say.
1:51
And
1:51
you
1:51
juxtapose
1:52
them
1:52
in
1:52
a
1:52
very
1:53
beautiful
1:53
and
1:53
skillful
1:54
way.
1:55
So,
1:55
so
1:55
maybe
1:55
you
1:55
could
1:56
say
1:56
what
1:56
these
1:57
two
1:58
giants
1:58
represent
1:59
for
1:59
you
1:59
or
2:00
symbolize.
2:01
Well,
2:01
this
2:01
is
2:02
interesting
2:02
because
2:03
just
2:03
to
2:04
preface
2:04
my
2:05
remarks,
2:05
when
2:06
I
2:06
was
2:06
approaching
2:06
this
2:07
book
2:07
and
2:08
I
2:08
write
2:08
about
2:08
this
2:08
in
2:09
the
2:09
chapter,
2:09
I
2:09
was
2:10
just
2:10
starting
2:10
to
2:10
write
2:11
the
2:11
book
2:11
about
2:11
the
2:11
deepest
2:12
grounds
2:12
and
2:13
something
2:13
so
2:13
dear
2:14
to
2:14
my
2:14
heart,
2:14
and
2:15
I
2:15
began
2:15
to
2:16
write
2:16
the
2:16
first
2:16
chapter
2:17
and
2:17
the
2:17
inner
2:17
voice
2:17
said,
2:18
stop.
2:19
And
2:19
it's
2:19
like,
2:20
oh,
2:21
all
2:21
right,
2:22
I'll
2:22
stop.
2:23
And
2:23
why
2:23
is
2:23
that?
2:24
You
2:24
know,
2:24
what
2:24
do
2:25
I
2:25
need?
2:25
What's
2:26
happening?
2:26
And
2:26
it's
2:26
like
2:27
the
2:27
guidance
2:28
was
2:28
the
2:28
kind
2:28
of
2:29
inner
2:29
knowing
2:29
you
2:30
need
2:30
to
2:30
understand
2:31
the
2:31
archetypal
2:32
dimension
2:32
better.
2:33
You
2:34
have
2:34
a
2:34
good
2:34
feel
2:35
for
2:35
the
2:35
personal
2:36
that
2:37
you
2:37
go
2:37
like
2:37
you
2:37
have
2:37
a
2:38
good
2:38
feel
2:38
for
2:38
the
2:38
groundless
2:39
ground.
2:39
But
2:39
this
2:39
archetypal,
2:41
you
2:41
need
2:41
to
2:41
understand
2:42
better
2:42
if
2:42
you're
2:42
going
2:43
to
2:43
speak
2:43
about
2:43
the
2:43
multidimensional
2:44
ground,
2:45
because
2:45
there
2:46
are
2:46
these
2:46
dimensions
2:48
and
2:48
to
2:48
be
2:48
authentic,
2:49
you
2:50
need
2:50
to
2:50
know
2:50
this
2:50
better,
2:51
not
2:52
just
2:52
cognitively,
2:53
but
2:53
experientially.
2:55
And
2:56
you
2:56
need
2:56
to
2:57
go
2:57
back
2:57
to
2:57
Jung.
2:58
So
2:58
that
2:58
was
2:58
the
2:58
inner
2:59
guidance
2:59
here.
3:00
So
3:00
I
3:00
went
3:00
back
3:00
and
3:01
I
3:01
read
3:01
his
3:02
Memory
3:02
Streams
3:03
Reflections,
3:03
which
3:04
had
3:04
made
3:04
such
3:04
an
3:05
impact
3:05
on
3:05
me
3:05
when
3:05
I
3:06
was
3:06
a
3:06
graduate
3:06
student.
3:07
Very
3:07
inspiring,
3:08
felt
3:09
very
3:09
authentic.
3:10
And
3:10
then
3:10
I
3:10
read
3:10
his
3:11
Red
3:11
Book,
3:11
which
3:11
was
3:12
pretty
3:12
hard
3:12
to
3:13
decipher,
3:14
pretty
3:14
dense
3:15
and
3:15
obscure,
3:16
but
3:16
interesting.
3:17
And
3:17
I
3:18
realized
3:18
I
3:18
need
3:19
to
3:19
research
3:19
this
3:20
more.
3:20
And
3:20
so
3:20
I
3:20
read
3:21
other
3:21
authors
3:22
about
3:22
the
3:22
Red
3:22
Book
3:23
and
3:23
was
3:23
able
3:24
to
3:24
actually
3:24
to
3:24
decode
3:25
his
3:25
language
3:26
and
3:26
get
3:27
a
3:27
feel
3:27
for
3:28
his
3:28
journey,
3:28
his
3:28
remarkable
3:29
opening,
3:30
pioneering
3:30
opening,
3:31
after
3:31
he
3:32
broke
3:32
from
3:32
Freud
3:33
and
3:34
opened
3:35
to
3:35
this
3:35
deeper
3:35
dimension.
3:36
So
3:36
there
3:36
was
3:36
this
3:37
whole
3:37
reacquaintance
3:38
with
3:38
Jung
3:39
himself,
3:40
his
3:40
process
3:41
and
3:41
his
3:41
discoveries
3:43
that
3:43
at
3:43
the
3:43
same
3:44
time
3:45
felt
3:45
like
3:45
it
3:45
was
3:46
very
3:46
important
3:47
to
3:48
be
3:49
in
3:49
touch
3:49
with
3:49
within
3:50
myself
3:51
this
3:51
archetypal
3:52
dimension,
3:52
to
3:52
have
3:53
not
3:53
just
3:53
an
3:54
understanding
3:54
of
3:54
it
3:54
and
3:55
occasional
3:55
experiences,
3:56
but
3:56
a
3:57
visceral
3:57
sense
3:58
or
3:58
feel.
3:59
And
3:59
the
3:59
visceral
4:00
sense
4:00
of
4:00
it,
4:00
and
4:01
this
4:01
is
4:01
true
4:01
for
4:01
Jung,
4:02
is
4:02
he
4:02
just
4:03
let
4:03
himself
4:03
drop.
4:05
This
4:05
is
4:05
like
4:05
a
4:05
critical
4:06
point
4:06
in
4:06
this
4:06
experience
4:07
that
4:07
I
4:07
write
4:07
about.
4:08
He
4:08
just
4:09
made
4:09
the
4:09
decision
4:10
to
4:10
just
4:11
let
4:11
go
4:12
and
4:12
allow
4:12
a
4:13
natural
4:13
descent
4:13
to
4:14
happen.
4:14
And
4:14
he
4:15
found
4:15
himself
4:15
like
4:15
just
4:16
falling
4:17
deep
4:17
underground.
4:18
And
4:19
then
4:19
this
4:19
whole
4:19
kind
4:19
of
4:20
world
4:21
appearing
4:21
that
4:22
he
4:22
began
4:22
to
4:22
dialogue
4:23
with,
4:23
very
4:23
tumultuous,
4:24
overwhelming.
4:25
And
4:25
he
4:25
doubted
4:26
his
4:26
own
4:26
sanity,
4:27
as
4:27
you
4:27
know.
4:28
And
4:28
that
4:28
lasted
4:29
for
4:29
several
4:29
years,
4:30
didn't
4:30
it?
4:30
That
4:30
was
4:31
really
4:31
an
4:31
extended
4:31
period.
4:32
It
4:32
went
4:32
on
4:32
for
4:33
many
4:33
years.
4:33
And
4:33
even
4:34
now
4:34
some
4:34
people
4:34
said
4:35
this
4:35
was
4:35
his
4:35
psychotic
4:36
period,
4:36
but
4:37
that's
4:37
not
4:37
accurate.
4:38
It
4:38
was
4:39
certainly
4:39
challenging
4:39
and
4:40
he
4:40
questioned
4:40
his
4:40
own
4:41
sanity.
4:41
But
4:41
it
4:42
was
4:42
a
4:42
very
4:42
profound
4:43
and
4:43
tumultuous
4:44
process
4:44
that
4:45
went
4:45
on
4:45
from
4:46
kind
4:46
of
4:46
1915
4:48
until
4:49
the
4:49
late
4:49
1920s,
4:50
I
4:50
would
4:51
say,
4:51
so
4:52
quite
4:52
an
4:52
intense
4:53
period.
4:53
And
4:53
he,
4:54
you
4:54
know,
4:55
he
4:55
wrote,
4:55
took
4:56
notes,
4:56
which
4:56
became
4:57
the
4:57
Black
4:57
Book
4:57
and
4:58
into
4:58
the
4:58
Black
4:58
Book,
4:58
the
4:59
Red
4:59
Book.
5:00
Anyway,
5:01
so
5:01
that
5:01
was
5:01
my
5:02
journey
5:02
with
5:02
Jung,
5:03
was
5:03
just
5:03
to
5:04
kind
5:04
of
5:04
acquaint
5:05
myself
5:05
better
5:06
with
5:06
this
5:06
whole
5:07
felt
5:07
sense
5:07
of
5:07
this
5:08
archetypal
5:08
world.
5:09
And
5:09
what's
5:09
interesting
5:10
is
5:11
my
5:11
own
5:12
kind
5:12
of
5:13
spiritual
5:14
roots
5:14
come
5:15
more
5:15
from
5:15
Advaita,
5:16
Vedanta
5:17
and
5:17
Kashmir
5:17
Shaivism.
5:19
And
5:19
so
5:19
I
5:20
encountered
5:20
the
5:20
teachings
5:21
of
5:21
Ramana
5:21
Maharshi
5:22
very
5:22
early
5:22
on
5:23
in
5:23
my
5:23
own
5:24
exploration.
5:24
Although
5:25
his
5:25
self
5:26
inquiry
5:26
process
5:27
was
5:27
quite
5:27
a
5:28
mystery
5:28
to
5:28
me.
5:28
When
5:28
I
5:28
first
5:29
read
5:29
about
5:29
who
5:29
Am
5:30
I?
5:30
You
5:30
know,
5:30
I
5:30
tried
5:30
to
5:31
answer
5:31
with
5:31
my
5:31
mind
5:31
and
5:32
got
5:32
nowhere.
5:33
But
5:33
he's
5:34
been
5:34
one
5:34
of
5:34
my
5:34
teachers,
5:35
I
5:35
would
5:35
say.
5:35
And
5:35
I
5:35
did
5:36
visit
5:36
his
5:36
ashram
5:37
in
5:37
India.
5:38
And
5:38
speaking
5:38
of
5:39
kind
5:39
of
5:39
sacred
5:40
places,
5:40
the
5:41
cave
5:41
in
5:41
which
5:41
he
5:41
sat
5:42
and
5:42
the
5:43
old
5:43
Darshan
5:43
hall
5:44
where
5:44
he
5:45
would
5:45
sit
5:45
with
5:45
people
5:46
for
5:46
years,
5:47
charged
5:48
Presence,
5:48
really
5:49
holy,
5:50
sacred
5:51
space.
5:52
So
5:53
anyway,
5:53
what
5:53
was
5:53
interesting
5:54
to
5:54
me
5:55
is
5:55
that
5:55
Jung
5:56
had
5:56
a
5:56
chance
5:56
to
5:56
meet
5:56
Ramana
5:57
and
5:58
be
5:58
with
5:58
him
5:59
when
5:59
he
5:59
went
6:00
to
6:00
India
6:01
in
6:01
19.
6:02
When
6:02
was
6:02
it?
6:02
1936,
6:03
37.
6:05
And
6:05
he
6:05
chose
6:05
not
6:06
to
6:06
because
6:06
he
6:07
thought
6:07
he
6:07
knew
6:08
who
6:08
Ramana
6:08
was.
6:09
He's
6:10
like
6:10
all
6:10
the
6:10
other
6:11
gurus
6:11
and
6:12
he's
6:12
just
6:12
interested
6:13
in
6:13
pure,
6:13
stainless
6:14
Brahman
6:15
consciousness.
6:18
And
6:18
Jung
6:19
felt
6:19
that
6:19
this
6:19
was
6:19
imbalanced,
6:21
that
6:21
this
6:21
would
6:22
be
6:22
destructive
6:23
actually
6:24
of
6:24
the
6:24
body
6:25
and
6:25
of
6:25
the
6:26
ego
6:26
in
6:26
a
6:26
negative
6:27
way.
6:27
And
6:28
so
6:29
he
6:29
really
6:29
was
6:29
on
6:30
a
6:30
different
6:30
path.
6:31
And
6:31
as
6:31
I
6:31
write,
6:32
he
6:32
had
6:32
his
6:32
own
6:32
dharma.
6:33
He
6:34
believed
6:35
that
6:35
what
6:36
Western
6:36
society
6:37
needed,
6:39
which
6:39
had
6:40
become
6:40
hyper
6:40
rational,
6:41
was
6:41
to
6:42
balance
6:42
out
6:42
that
6:42
hyper
6:43
rationalism
6:44
and
6:44
include
6:45
this
6:46
missing
6:47
part
6:47
of
6:47
the
6:47
polarity
6:48
in
6:48
the
6:48
psyche
6:49
and
6:50
to
6:50
have
6:50
a.
6:51
Through
6:51
the
6:51
Holy
6:51
Spirit,
6:52
to
6:52
have
6:52
a
6:52
kind
6:52
of
6:53
Christification
6:53
of
6:54
humanity.
6:54
So
6:55
they
6:56
had
6:56
very
6:56
different
6:56
approaches.
6:57
And
6:57
it
6:57
was
6:57
just
6:58
interesting
6:58
to
6:58
see
6:58
that
6:59
juxtaposition
7:00
and
7:01
also
7:01
to
7:01
see
7:02
in
7:02
both
7:02
traditions
7:03
there's
7:03
a
7:03
tendency
7:04
to
7:04
devalue
7:05
the
7:05
other.
7:06
So
7:06
in
7:07
the
7:07
tradition
7:07
of
7:07
Advaita,
7:08
there'll
7:09
be
7:09
a
7:09
tendency
7:10
not
7:10
to
7:11
deal
7:11
with
7:11
the
7:11
soulful
7:12
levels
7:12
and
7:13
archetypal
7:13
levels
7:14
that
7:14
Jung
7:14
pioneered
7:15
so
7:15
beautifully
7:16
and
7:17
so
7:17
deeply
7:17
and
7:18
to
7:18
dismiss,
7:18
that
7:19
is
7:20
unimportant
7:21
or
7:21
even
7:21
an
7:21
egoic
7:22
expression.
7:23
And
7:23
from
7:23
the
7:24
Jungian
7:24
side,
7:25
it's
7:25
like
7:26
to
7:27
give
7:27
oneself
7:28
to
7:28
the
7:28
transcendent,
7:29
to
7:29
the
7:29
groundless
7:30
ground
7:30
would
7:30
be
7:31
in
7:31
some
7:31
way
7:32
subverting
7:33
or
7:34
diminishing
7:34
the
7:34
individuation
7:35
process
7:36
where
7:36
there
7:37
was
7:37
a
7:37
balancing
7:37
of
7:38
egoic
7:38
and
7:39
archetypal
7:40
levels
7:40
and
7:40
continual
7:41
kind
7:41
of
7:41
expansion
7:42
vertically
7:42
and
7:42
horizontally
7:43
of
7:43
those
7:43
two.
7:44
My
7:45
experience
7:45
working
7:45
with
7:46
people
7:46
is
7:46
they're
7:47
both
7:47
important.
7:48
Yes.
7:49
And
7:49
as
7:49
we
7:50
sit
7:50
and
7:50
go
7:51
deeply
7:51
into
7:51
our
7:52
experience,
7:52
there's
7:52
a
7:53
very
7:53
natural
7:53
movement
7:54
of
7:54
attention
7:55
between
7:56
different
7:56
dimensions.
7:57
And
7:58
sometimes,
7:59
you
7:59
know,
7:59
and
7:59
certainly
8:00
when
8:00
we,
8:00
if
8:01
we're
8:01
on
8:01
vision
8:01
quests
8:02
or
8:02
do
8:02
plant
8:02
medicine,
8:03
these,
8:03
you
8:04
know,
8:04
the
8:04
archetypal
8:05
dimensions
8:05
tend
8:06
to
8:06
get
8:06
evoked
8:07
more
8:07
directly.
8:08
And
8:08
they
8:08
can
8:09
be
8:09
profoundly
8:09
healing
8:10
and
8:10
revelatory
8:11
and
8:12
important
8:12
and
8:12
life
8:13
changing,
8:13
deeply
8:14
transformative.
8:15
Similarly,
8:16
there
8:16
can
8:16
be
8:17
movements
8:17
where
8:17
the
8:18
ground
8:18
falls
8:18
open,
8:19
you
8:19
know,
8:19
and
8:20
the
8:20
walls
8:20
fall
8:20
off
8:20
and
8:21
the
8:21
roof
8:21
falls
8:21
off.
8:22
And
8:22
we
8:22
feel
8:22
ourselves
8:23
as
8:23
boundless
8:24
awareness,
8:25
not
8:25
separate
8:26
from
8:26
anything
8:27
and
8:28
intrinsic
8:28
to
8:29
everything,
8:30
which
8:30
is
8:30
profoundly
8:31
liberating
8:32
and
8:32
life
8:33
giving.
8:33
And
8:34
attention
8:34
will
8:35
move,
8:35
and
8:36
sometimes
8:36
it'll
8:36
go
8:37
to
8:37
levels
8:37
of
8:37
personal
8:37
conditioning,
8:39
these
8:39
core
8:39
limiting
8:40
beliefs
8:40
or
8:40
contractions
8:41
and
8:42
traumatic
8:42
experience.
8:43
So
8:44
attention,
8:44
given
8:45
the
8:45
chance,
8:46
attention
8:46
will
8:46
go
8:46
to
8:47
where
8:47
it
8:47
needs
8:47
in
8:48
the
8:48
healing
8:48
and
8:48
awakening
8:49
process.
8:50
And
8:50
I
8:50
think
8:50
it's
8:50
important
8:51
to
8:51
understand
8:51
that
8:52
that's
8:52
A
8:52
unique
8:52
process
8:53
for
8:53
everyone.
8:54
It's
8:54
a
8:54
very
8:54
spontaneous
8:55
process
8:56
and
8:56
it's
8:56
very
8:57
important
8:57
to
8:57
honor
8:58
that
8:58
in
8:59
people
8:59
that
8:59
we're
9:00
working
9:00
with
9:00
and
9:01
within
9:01
our
9:01
own
9:01
self,
9:02
to
9:02
not
9:03
cut
9:03
ourselves
9:04
off
9:04
from
9:04
any
9:05
dimension
9:05
of
9:05
our
9:06
experience.
9:07
And
9:07
I
9:07
want
9:08
to
9:08
just
9:08
emphasize
9:09
an
9:09
implication
9:10
of
9:10
what
9:10
you're
9:10
saying
9:10
there,
9:10
John.
9:11
And
9:12
that
9:12
is
9:13
what
9:14
for
9:14
me
9:14
was
9:14
one
9:14
of
9:14
the
9:14
most
9:15
important
9:15
recognitions
9:16
of
9:16
psychotherapy
9:17
was
9:17
that
9:18
we
9:18
can
9:19
actually
9:19
trust
9:20
our
9:20
own
9:20
psyches,
9:21
that
9:22
there's
9:22
a
9:22
wisdom
9:23
and
9:23
guidance
9:23
and
9:24
there
9:25
that's
9:25
much
9:26
greater
9:26
than
9:27
this
9:27
little
9:27
ego.
9:28
And
9:28
I
9:29
had
9:29
spent
9:29
my
9:29
entire
9:30
life
9:31
like
9:31
it
9:31
seems
9:32
like
9:32
most
9:32
of
9:33
this
9:33
people,
9:34
distrusting
9:35
my
9:35
own
9:36
mind
9:36
and
9:36
thinking.
9:36
I
9:36
had
9:37
to
9:37
be
9:37
on
9:37
guard
9:37
against
9:38
my
9:38
own
9:38
impulses
9:39
and
9:39
this
9:40
and
9:40
that
9:40
and
9:40
the
9:40
other,
9:40
etc.
9:42
And
9:42
it
9:42
was
9:42
such
9:43
a
9:43
relief
9:44
to
9:44
find
9:44
that
9:44
actually
9:46
one
9:46
can
9:46
trust
9:47
the
9:47
mind
9:47
and
9:47
therefore
9:48
trust
9:48
oneself.
9:49
Exactly.
9:50
Beautiful
9:50
point.
9:51
There
9:51
is
9:51
given
9:51
a
9:52
chance,
9:52
the
9:52
psyche
9:53
will
9:53
unfold
9:53
itself
9:54
and
9:55
reveal
9:55
either
9:56
essential
9:56
qualities
9:57
of
9:57
being
9:57
or
9:58
being
9:58
itself.
9:59
And
10:00
it's
10:00
a
10:00
natural
10:00
unfolding
10:01
process.
10:01
But
10:02
it
10:02
needs
10:02
support
10:03
and
10:03
it
10:03
needs
10:03
understanding
10:04
for
10:05
that
10:05
to
10:05
happen.
10:05
And
10:06
that's
10:06
why
10:06
sometimes
10:07
that
10:07
flowering
10:08
will
10:08
happen
10:08
of
10:08
its
10:08
own,
10:09
spontaneously
10:10
at
10:10
times.
10:10
And
10:10
sometimes
10:11
it's
10:11
really
10:11
helpful
10:12
to
10:12
have
10:13
an
10:13
attuned
10:13
guide
10:14
or
10:14
some
10:14
kind
10:14
of
10:15
supportive
10:16
environment
10:16
to
10:16
facilitate
10:17
that
10:17
opening.
10:18
But
10:18
yes,
10:18
there
10:18
is
10:19
an
10:19
intrinsic
10:19
movement
10:20
and
10:20
natural
10:21
intelligence
10:22
within
10:22
each
10:23
of
10:23
us.
10:23
And
10:24
stepping
10:24
back,
10:24
just,
10:25
I
10:25
love
10:25
your
10:27
talking
10:27
about
10:28
Ramana
10:29
Maharshi
10:29
and
10:30
Carl
10:30
Jung
10:31
and
10:31
how
10:31
they
10:31
were
10:32
both
10:32
kind
10:33
of
10:34
arrive
10:34
at
10:34
the
10:35
same
10:35
places,
10:35
but
10:35
Jung
10:36
came
10:36
from
10:37
a
10:37
new,
10:37
you
10:37
know,
10:38
psychotherapy,
10:38
a
10:39
student
10:39
of
10:39
Freud,
10:40
and
10:41
took
10:41
that
10:42
and
10:42
took
10:42
the
10:43
individuation,
10:43
the
10:44
individuality,
10:45
which
10:45
eventually
10:46
led
10:46
to
10:47
the
10:47
place
10:47
that
10:47
I
10:47
think
10:48
Ramana
10:48
Maharshi
10:49
was
10:49
starting
10:50
out
10:50
at,
10:50
basically.
10:51
And
10:52
it's
10:52
really
10:53
interesting,
10:53
it's
10:53
kind
10:54
of
10:54
a
10:54
Western
10:54
and
10:54
Eastern
10:55
way
10:55
of
10:56
looking
10:56
at
10:56
it.
10:56
But
10:57
they
10:57
seem
10:58
at
10:58
the
10:58
deepest
10:58
levels
10:59
come
10:59
to
10:59
the
10:59
same
11:00
transcendent
11:00
place,
11:01
if
11:01
I'm
11:01
not
11:01
mistaken.
11:02
Well,
11:03
I
11:03
see
11:03
it
11:03
a
11:03
little
11:03
differently,
11:04
okay.
11:05
Because
11:05
I
11:05
think
11:06
they
11:06
actually
11:06
do
11:06
take,
11:07
they
11:07
speak
11:08
to
11:08
different
11:08
dimensions
11:09
of
11:09
experience,
11:10
of
11:10
depth
11:10
experience.
11:11
So
11:12
to
11:12
use
11:12
a
11:12
metaphor
11:13
of
11:13
the
11:13
ocean,
11:13
let's
11:14
say
11:15
Jung
11:15
was
11:15
exploring
11:16
the
11:16
deepest
11:17
currents
11:17
within
11:17
the
11:17
ocean,
11:19
the
11:19
very
11:19
fine
11:20
levels
11:20
of
11:20
manifestation,
11:21
the
11:21
archetypes
11:22
that
11:22
would
11:23
emerge
11:23
that
11:23
were
11:24
not
11:24
personal,
11:24
they
11:24
were
11:25
transpersonal
11:26
and
11:26
they
11:26
were
11:26
cross
11:27
cultural.
11:28
On
11:29
the
11:29
other
11:29
hand,
11:29
Ramana
11:30
was
11:30
interested
11:30
in
11:30
the
11:31
ocean
11:31
floor,
11:32
like
11:32
the
11:33
ground
11:33
of
11:33
being,
11:34
if
11:34
you
11:34
will,
11:35
the
11:36
formless
11:36
awareness.
11:37
So
11:37
Jung
11:38
interested
11:38
in
11:38
very
11:39
subtle
11:39
form
11:40
and
11:41
Ramana
11:41
interested
11:42
in
11:42
the
11:42
formless.
11:43
And
11:44
each
11:44
specialized
11:45
in
11:45
these
11:45
areas,
11:46
but
11:47
did
11:47
not
11:47
necessarily
11:48
fully
11:49
address
11:49
the
11:49
other.
11:50
And
11:50
So
11:51
I
11:51
see
11:51
them
11:51
as
11:51
complementary
11:53
and
11:53
as
11:54
close,
11:54
but
11:54
actually
11:55
distinctive.
11:56
Have
11:56
you
11:57
been
11:57
able
11:57
to
11:57
weave
11:58
those
11:58
together
11:58
a
11:58
little
11:59
in
12:00
your
12:00
journey?
12:00
And
12:01
if
12:01
you'd
12:01
like
12:01
to
12:01
speak
12:02
on
12:02
that
12:02
a
12:02
bit.
12:04
Well,
12:04
that's
12:04
a
12:04
big
12:04
question.
12:05
Yeah.
12:06
You
12:07
know,
12:07
as
12:07
I
12:07
suggested
12:08
in
12:08
the
12:08
book,
12:08
there's
12:08
a
12:09
kind
12:09
of
12:09
a
12:09
natural
12:10
unfolding
12:10
of
12:10
those.
12:11
And
12:11
even
12:12
though.
12:12
Let's
12:12
take
12:13
the
12:13
example,
12:14
because
12:14
I
12:14
have
12:15
found
12:15
at
12:15
different
12:15
times
12:15
of
12:16
my
12:16
life,
12:16
my
12:16
attention
12:17
has
12:17
gone
12:17
more
12:17
to
12:18
one
12:18
level
12:18
or
12:19
to
12:19
another.
12:20
But
12:20
even
12:20
the
12:20
impulse
12:21
to
12:21
write
12:21
this
12:21
book,
12:21
for
12:22
instance,
12:23
feels
12:24
like
12:24
it's
12:24
coming
12:25
from
12:25
some
12:25
other
12:25
level.
12:26
Like,
12:26
I
12:27
don't
12:27
have
12:27
a
12:27
personal
12:27
agenda
12:28
here.
12:28
I
12:28
don't
12:29
have
12:29
a
12:29
need
12:29
personally
12:30
to
12:30
write
12:30
this
12:31
in
12:31
order
12:31
to
12:31
achieve
12:32
or
12:32
demonstrate
12:33
anything.
12:33
It's
12:33
like,
12:34
it
12:34
feels
12:34
like
12:34
life
12:34
is
12:35
saying,
12:35
share
12:36
what
12:36
you've
12:36
learned.
12:37
It
12:37
will
12:37
be
12:37
of
12:37
benefit
12:38
to
12:38
others.
12:39
And
12:39
once
12:39
you've
12:39
shared
12:40
it,
12:40
let
12:40
it
12:40
go.
12:42
So
12:42
that
12:42
has
12:42
a
12:42
kind
12:42
of
12:43
archetypal
12:43
feel
12:44
to
12:44
it.
12:45
In
12:45
other
12:45
words,
12:46
I
12:46
have
12:46
certain
12:47
sensitivities,
12:48
certain
12:48
insights,
12:49
certain
12:49
understandings
12:51
that
12:51
I
12:51
have
12:52
found
12:52
to
12:52
be
12:52
of
12:52
help
12:53
to
12:53
others.
12:54
And
12:54
it
12:54
feels
12:54
like
12:54
it
12:55
would
12:55
be
12:55
actually
12:55
selfish
12:56
to
12:56
simply
12:57
keep
12:57
those
12:57
to
12:57
myself.
12:58
And
12:59
so
12:59
the
13:00
movement
13:00
is
13:00
a
13:00
natural
13:01
sharing
13:01
of
13:01
that.
13:02
All
13:02
of
13:02
that
13:03
within
13:03
a
13:03
context
13:04
of
13:05
all
13:05
is,
13:05
well,
13:05
no
13:06
matter
13:06
what.
13:08
And
13:08
they're
13:08
both
13:08
operating.
13:10
It's
13:10
like
13:10
if
13:10
this
13:11
book
13:11
were
13:11
never
13:11
to
13:11
happen,
13:12
that
13:12
would
13:12
be
13:13
okay.
13:13
And
13:14
there's
13:14
a
13:14
natural
13:15
movement
13:15
to
13:15
do
13:16
so.
13:16
So
13:16
if
13:16
I
13:16
have
13:17
the
13:17
capacity,
13:18
if
13:18
I
13:18
have
13:18
the
13:19
time
13:19
and,
13:19
you
13:20
know,
13:21
then
13:21
to
13:22
allow
13:22
that
13:22
gift
13:23
to
13:23
be
13:23
shared.
13:24
So
13:25
that
13:25
gives
13:25
an
13:25
example.
13:26
Yeah,
13:27
it
13:27
seems
13:27
that
13:28
that
13:28
gets
13:28
into
13:29
Jung
13:29
and
13:29
the
13:29
archetypes
13:30
and
13:31
in
13:31
that
13:31
spacious
13:33
emptiness
13:33
of
13:34
just
13:34
unitive
13:35
experience.
13:36
There's
13:36
times
13:36
when
13:37
we
13:37
put
13:37
on
13:38
the
13:38
coat
13:39
of
13:39
the
13:39
archetype.
13:40
Yes.
13:40
Like
13:41
it's
13:41
stand
13:41
up
13:42
as
13:42
a
13:43
Gandalf
13:43
or
13:43
a
13:44
wizard
13:44
or
13:45
a
13:45
healer
13:45
or
13:46
a
13:46
holy
13:46
man
13:47
or
13:47
a
13:47
warrior
13:48
or
13:48
a
13:48
hero.
13:49
There's
13:49
times
13:50
to
13:50
take
13:51
on
13:51
that,
13:51
but
13:52
it's
13:53
held
13:53
lightly.
13:54
That's
13:54
it.
13:55
It's
13:55
held
13:55
lightly.
13:56
We
13:56
don't
13:56
take
13:57
that
13:57
as
13:57
who
13:57
we
13:57
are.
13:58
Fundamentally,
13:59
it's
13:59
a
13:59
role
13:59
function
14:01
that
14:01
life
14:01
is
14:02
asking
14:02
of
14:02
us.
14:02
To
14:02
be
14:02
a
14:03
parent,
14:03
for
14:03
instance,
14:04
to
14:04
be
14:04
a
14:04
mother,
14:05
to
14:05
be
14:05
a
14:05
caretaker,
14:06
to
14:06
be
14:06
an
14:06
artist,
14:07
to
14:08
be
14:08
a
14:08
lover.
14:09
It's
14:10
called
14:10
forth
14:10
from
14:11
circumstances.
14:13
It's
14:13
being
14:13
open
14:14
to
14:14
that.
14:15
Not
14:15
insisting
14:15
on
14:15
it,
14:16
but
14:16
not
14:16
refusing
14:17
it
14:17
and
14:18
being
14:18
willing
14:18
to
14:18
put
14:19
on
14:19
the
14:20
cloak
14:20
and
14:20
then
14:21
be
14:21
willing
14:21
to
14:21
let
14:21
it
14:22
go
14:22
when
14:22
it's
14:22
no
14:23
longer
14:23
needed.
14:25
There's
14:25
a
14:25
lightness
14:25
of
14:26
being
14:26
in
14:26
that.
14:27
To
14:27
not
14:27
take
14:27
oneself.
14:28
You
14:28
know,
14:29
it
14:29
connects
14:30
us
14:30
to
14:30
our
14:30
ancestors.
14:31
You
14:31
know,
14:31
these
14:31
coats
14:32
that
14:32
we
14:32
put
14:32
on
14:32
at
14:32
certain
14:33
times
14:33
is
14:34
something
14:34
that's
14:34
been
14:34
built
14:35
over
14:35
human
14:35
history.
14:36
And
14:36
so
14:37
there's
14:37
a
14:37
connectedness
14:38
to
14:38
that
14:38
layer
14:39
of
14:39
it.
14:39
This
14:40
is
14:40
one
14:40
of
14:40
the
14:40
interesting.
14:41
We
14:41
could
14:41
talk
14:41
about
14:41
this
14:42
quite
14:42
a
14:42
bit.
14:42
It's
14:42
a
14:42
fascinating
14:43
subject.
14:44
Jung
14:44
referred
14:45
to
14:45
the
14:45
collective
14:45
unconscious
14:46
as
14:46
a
14:46
land
14:46
of
14:47
the
14:47
dead,
14:48
clearly
14:49
and
14:49
directly
14:50
linking
14:50
it
14:51
to
14:51
our
14:51
ancestral
14:52
lineages,
14:53
to
14:54
those
14:55
voices,
14:55
those
14:56
countless
14:56
generations
14:57
of
14:58
beings
14:59
that
14:59
preceded
15:00
us,
15:00
whose
15:01
yearnings
15:01
had
15:02
not
15:02
been
15:02
actualized,
15:03
who
15:03
questions
15:03
had
15:04
not
15:04
been
15:04
answered,
15:05
whose
15:05
essence
15:05
had
15:06
not
15:06
been
15:06
recognized.
15:07
And
15:07
we
15:08
are
15:08
on
15:08
that
15:08
wave
15:10
and
15:10
moving
15:12
of
15:12
life,
15:12
waking
15:13
up
15:13
to
15:13
itself
15:14
through
15:14
humanity.
15:16
And
15:16
in
15:16
some
15:16
sense,
15:16
the
15:17
ancestors
15:17
are
15:17
looking
15:18
at
15:18
us,
15:19
waiting
15:19
for
15:19
us
15:19
to
15:19
get
15:19
it
15:20
done.
15:20
You
15:20
know,
15:21
this
15:21
is
15:21
what
15:21
people
15:22
report,
15:22
and
15:23
it's
15:23
been
15:23
fascinating
15:24
in
15:24
this
15:24
in
15:24
depth
15:25
work
15:25
at
15:25
times.
15:25
People
15:26
discover
15:27
an
15:27
ancestral
15:27
lineage
15:28
of
15:29
suffering
15:29
almost
15:30
always.
15:31
And
15:31
as
15:31
they
15:31
resolve
15:32
a
15:33
particular
15:33
issue
15:34
within
15:34
themselves,
15:35
it
15:35
feels
15:36
like
15:36
that
15:36
whole
15:36
lineage
15:37
lights
15:37
up
15:38
for
15:38
them
15:38
in
15:39
some
15:39
way.
15:39
It's
15:40
very
15:40
interesting.
15:41
And
15:41
how
15:41
do
15:41
you
15:41
understand
15:42
that,
15:42
John?
15:43
That
15:44
is.
15:44
I
15:45
can
15:45
understand
15:45
it
15:45
in
15:46
two
15:46
ways.
15:46
I
15:46
can
15:47
understand
15:47
it
15:47
as
15:48
we
15:48
carry
15:49
kind
15:50
of
15:50
psychic
15:51
traces
15:52
from
15:52
our
15:52
ancestors
15:53
that
15:53
are
15:53
passed
15:54
on
15:54
culturally
15:55
and
15:55
through
15:55
specific
15:56
families
15:56
of
15:57
origin.
15:58
So
15:58
in
15:58
a
15:59
kind
15:59
of
15:59
linear
15:59
way,
16:00
it's
16:00
our
16:00
baggage,
16:01
and
16:01
the
16:01
baggage
16:01
becomes
16:02
illumined.
16:03
So
16:03
that
16:03
would
16:04
be
16:04
a
16:04
more
16:04
conventional
16:04
way.
16:05
Another
16:05
way,
16:06
which
16:06
is
16:06
much
16:07
more
16:07
kind
16:07
of
16:07
mind
16:08
blowing
16:08
is
16:08
it's
16:09
all
16:09
happening
16:10
at
16:10
the
16:10
same
16:10
time,
16:11
that
16:11
our
16:12
concept
16:12
of
16:12
linearity
16:13
is
16:13
just
16:13
that
16:14
concept.
16:15
And
16:15
so
16:16
past,
16:16
present,
16:16
future
16:18
are
16:18
all
16:18
coexisting
16:19
simultaneously.
16:20
And
16:20
a
16:20
change
16:21
in
16:21
any
16:21
of
16:21
those
16:21
affects
16:22
all
16:22
of
16:22
them.
16:24
Yeah,
16:25
okay.
16:27
I
16:27
understood
16:28
that
16:28
at
16:28
moments,
16:29
at
16:29
brief
16:29
moments.
16:29
I've
16:30
seen
16:30
that.
16:30
But
16:30
honestly,
16:31
I
16:31
can't
16:32
say
16:32
that
16:32
that's
16:32
my
16:33
lived
16:33
experience.
16:35
That's
16:35
a
16:35
concept.
16:36
But
16:36
it
16:36
is
16:36
interesting
16:37
that
16:38
people
16:38
have
16:38
these
16:38
experiences
16:39
where
16:40
it
16:40
feels
16:40
like
16:40
the
16:41
ancestors
16:41
are
16:41
grateful
16:43
for
16:44
the
16:44
unfolding,
16:45
that
16:45
someone
16:46
is
16:46
discovering
16:47
a
16:47
letting
16:47
go
16:48
of
16:48
some
16:48
deep
16:48
confusion.
16:50
Yeah.
16:52
You
16:52
point
16:53
to
16:53
the
16:53
way
16:54
that
16:55
Jung
16:55
and
16:55
Ramana
16:56
Maharshi.
16:57
Well,
16:57
a
16:58
couple
16:58
of
16:58
questions
16:58
here
16:59
first
17:00
followed
17:01
different
17:01
paths,
17:02
they
17:02
had
17:02
different
17:03
callings,
17:03
and
17:04
they
17:04
responded
17:05
to
17:06
what
17:06
life
17:07
asked
17:07
of
17:07
each
17:07
of
17:08
them.
17:09
And
17:09
you
17:10
pointed
17:10
to.
17:11
Point
17:11
to
17:11
the
17:11
fact
17:11
that
17:12
Jung
17:12
focused
17:13
on
17:13
mental
17:14
contents,
17:15
even
17:15
though
17:15
very
17:16
profound
17:16
ones,
17:17
whereas
17:18
Ramana
17:18
Maharshi
17:19
went
17:19
to
17:20
the
17:21
dropped
17:22
into
17:22
and
17:22
became
17:23
the
17:23
awareness
17:24
in
17:24
which
17:24
content
17:25
arises.
17:26
Yes.
17:27
Would
17:27
you
17:27
say
17:28
that
17:28
those
17:29
are
17:30
characteristic
17:31
of
17:32
Indian
17:32
culture
17:33
and
17:34
contemporary
17:35
Western
17:35
culture,
17:36
respectively?
17:37
I
17:37
think
17:38
so.
17:38
I
17:38
mean,
17:38
with
17:38
exceptions,
17:39
of
17:39
course.
17:40
But
17:40
yeah.
17:40
India
17:41
in
17:41
particular
17:42
has
17:42
a
17:43
transcendent
17:44
accent
17:44
to
17:44
its
17:45
spirituality
17:46
and
17:47
Western
17:47
culture.
17:49
I
17:49
mean,
17:50
you
17:50
know,
17:50
you
17:51
can
17:51
see
17:51
if
17:52
we
17:52
look
17:52
at
17:52
Meister
17:52
Eckhart,
17:53
for
17:53
instance,
17:54
there's
17:54
a
17:55
transcendent
17:55
aspect,
17:56
but
17:56
he
17:56
was
17:56
very
17:57
interested
17:57
in
17:58
living
17:59
that.
17:59
The
18:00
Geburz,
18:00
the
18:01
birth
18:01
of
18:01
spirit
18:02
in
18:02
ordinary
18:03
life
18:04
as
18:04
well.
18:04
He's
18:05
an
18:05
outlier.
18:06
I
18:06
think,
18:06
you
18:06
know,
18:06
there
18:06
are
18:07
a
18:07
few
18:07
outliers
18:08
in
18:08
Western
18:08
society,
18:09
but
18:09
mainly
18:09
we've
18:10
been
18:10
interested
18:10
in
18:10
the
18:11
content.
18:11
And
18:11
really
18:12
prior
18:12
to
18:13
Jung,
18:13
there
18:13
wasn't
18:14
a
18:14
clear
18:14
articulation,
18:16
even
18:16
this
18:16
subtle
18:17
archetypal
18:17
level.
18:18
There
18:18
were
18:18
certainly
18:18
expressions
18:19
of
18:19
it,
18:19
but
18:19
not
18:20
conceptual
18:21
framework
18:21
with
18:21
which
18:22
to
18:22
understand
18:22
it.
18:22
But
18:24
yeah,
18:24
I
18:25
think,
18:25
you
18:25
know,
18:25
we
18:25
in
18:26
the
18:26
west
18:26
are
18:26
more
18:26
concerned
18:27
with
18:27
form
18:27
and
18:28
India
18:28
in
18:28
its
18:28
more
18:29
transcendent
18:29
traditions
18:30
with
18:30
the
18:30
formless.
18:32
I
18:32
had
18:32
a
18:32
friend
18:33
recently
18:33
tell
18:34
me
18:34
when
18:34
I
18:34
was
18:34
struggling,
18:35
going
18:35
through
18:35
kind
18:35
of
18:35
a
18:36
dark
18:36
period,
18:36
he
18:37
told
18:37
me,
18:37
this
18:37
has
18:37
really
18:38
stuck
18:38
with
18:38
me,
18:38
that
18:38
the
18:39
content
18:39
is
18:39
the
18:40
path.
18:41
So
18:42
I
18:42
was
18:42
like,
18:43
huh,
18:45
okay.
18:46
And
18:46
I
18:46
guess
18:46
that's
18:47
form
18:47
is
18:47
form
18:48
is
18:48
emptiness
18:49
and
18:49
emptiness
18:49
is
18:50
form
18:50
sort
18:50
of
18:50
thing.
18:51
But
18:51
we're
18:52
talking
18:52
about,
18:52
I
18:52
guess,
18:53
different
18:53
yogas
18:54
kind
18:54
of
18:54
leading
18:55
us
18:55
to
18:55
the
18:55
same,
18:56
same,
18:56
eventually
18:57
the
18:57
same
18:57
place.
18:58
I
18:58
don't
18:58
know.
18:58
That's
18:59
just
18:59
a
18:59
concept.
19:00
But
19:00
what
19:00
would
19:00
you
19:00
say
19:00
about
19:00
that?
19:01
Well,
19:01
I
19:01
think
19:02
again,
19:02
Jung
19:02
was
19:03
concerned
19:03
with
19:03
individuation,
19:06
individualized
19:07
expression
19:08
of
19:09
essential
19:10
of
19:10
these
19:11
archetypal
19:12
qualities.
19:14
So
19:14
I
19:14
think
19:15
they
19:15
lead
19:15
to
19:15
complementary
19:16
but
19:17
differentiated
19:18
places.
19:19
And
19:19
I
19:19
think
19:19
both
19:19
are
19:20
important
19:20
actually.
19:21
And
19:21
I
19:21
think
19:22
the
19:22
tendency
19:22
is
19:23
to
19:23
devalue
19:23
one
19:24
or
19:24
the
19:24
other.
19:24
And
19:25
I
19:25
see
19:25
them,
19:26
this
19:26
has
19:26
been
19:26
my
19:26
discovery
19:27
that
19:27
the
19:28
openness
19:29
that
19:29
discovering
19:30
really
19:30
the
19:31
depths
19:31
of
19:31
true
19:31
nature,
19:32
this
19:32
unbounded,
19:33
open,
19:33
undefined
19:34
awareness,
19:35
I
19:35
find
19:35
actually
19:35
supports
19:36
the
19:36
actualization
19:37
and
19:38
individuation
19:38
process
19:39
because
19:40
we're
19:40
less,
19:40
as
19:41
we
19:41
engage
19:41
in
19:41
it
19:42
more
19:42
deeply,
19:42
we're
19:43
less
19:43
concerned
19:43
about
19:43
our
19:44
image
19:44
and
19:44
story
19:45
because
19:45
we
19:45
realize
19:46
it's
19:46
not
19:46
who
19:46
we
19:46
are
19:47
fundamentally.
19:48
So
19:49
the
19:49
less
19:49
we
19:49
are
19:49
concerned
19:50
with
19:50
how
19:50
am
19:51
I
19:51
doing,
19:51
how
19:51
do
19:52
I
19:52
look,
19:52
my
19:52
legacy,
19:53
what
19:54
am
19:54
I
19:54
going
19:54
to
19:54
achieve?
19:55
And
19:56
we're
19:56
more
19:56
and
19:56
more
19:56
in
19:57
the
19:57
process
19:57
of
19:58
just
19:58
life
19:58
living
19:59
itself.
20:00
Those
20:01
gifts
20:02
come
20:02
forward
20:03
in
20:03
a
20:04
very
20:04
much
20:04
more
20:05
spontaneous
20:05
and
20:05
unpretentious
20:06
way.
20:07
And
20:07
so
20:08
my
20:08
experience
20:08
is
20:09
like
20:09
opening
20:09
to
20:09
unbounded
20:10
awareness
20:11
supports
20:11
the
20:11
individuation
20:12
process
20:13
when
20:14
properly
20:14
understood.
20:16
But
20:16
people
20:16
get
20:16
stuck
20:17
on
20:17
the
20:17
spiritual
20:17
path
20:18
and
20:18
they
20:18
often
20:18
get
20:18
stuck
20:19
in
20:19
the
20:19
transcendent.
20:20
And
20:20
they
20:20
get
20:20
stuck
20:20
up
20:21
here.
20:21
They
20:22
get
20:22
stuck
20:22
in
20:23
like
20:23
this
20:24
awareness,
20:25
which
20:25
feels
20:26
expansive,
20:27
which
20:27
feels
20:28
free.
20:29
But
20:30
this
20:30
whole
20:30
kind
20:30
of
20:31
embodiment,
20:31
the
20:32
descent
20:33
really
20:33
include
20:34
the
20:34
body,
20:35
is
20:35
the
20:35
discovery
20:36
that
20:36
emptiness
20:37
is
20:37
form
20:37
and
20:38
form
20:38
is
20:38
emptiness.
20:39
The
20:39
non
20:39
separation
20:40
of
20:40
form
20:40
and
20:40
formless,
20:41
that
20:41
it's
20:41
all
20:42
consciousness,
20:43
not
20:43
just
20:43
as
20:44
a
20:44
nice
20:44
thought,
20:45
but
20:45
as
20:45
a
20:45
lived
20:46
reality.
20:47
That's
20:47
the
20:47
imminent
20:48
approach.
20:48
And
20:48
I
20:49
think
20:49
that
20:49
blends
20:50
these
20:50
dimensions.
20:51
That
20:51
we're
20:52
talking
20:52
about,
20:54
John,
20:55
in
20:55
your
20:56
use
20:56
of
20:56
Ramana,
20:57
Maharshi
20:58
and
20:58
Carl
20:58
Jung
20:59
as
20:59
exemplars
21:00
of
21:00
people
21:00
who
21:00
follow
21:01
their
21:01
calling
21:02
to
21:04
distinctly
21:05
different
21:06
realizations
21:07
and
21:08
discoveries
21:08
about
21:08
the
21:09
psyche
21:09
and
21:09
about
21:10
human
21:10
nature,
21:11
but
21:11
in
21:11
ways
21:11
which
21:12
you're
21:12
pointing
21:12
out
21:12
can
21:13
be
21:13
used
21:13
very.
21:14
In
21:14
very
21:14
complementary
21:15
ways.
21:16
And
21:16
then
21:16
you
21:16
brought
21:17
it
21:17
back
21:17
to
21:18
the
21:19
reader
21:19
and
21:20
you
21:20
ask
21:20
a
21:21
beautiful
21:21
question.
21:22
Given
21:23
that
21:23
these
21:23
two
21:24
are
21:24
exemplars
21:25
of
21:25
following
21:26
their
21:27
calling,
21:28
what
21:28
is
21:28
life
21:29
asking
21:30
of
21:30
you?
21:30
I
21:31
thought
21:31
that
21:31
was
21:31
such
21:32
a
21:32
beautiful
21:32
question.
21:34
That's
21:35
good.
21:36
Yeah,
21:37
it's
21:38
a
21:38
living
21:38
question.
21:39
It's
21:40
a
21:40
question
21:40
that
21:41
is.
21:42
And
21:42
it's
21:42
not
21:42
a
21:42
question
21:43
for
21:43
ordinary
21:43
mind,
21:45
not
21:45
a
21:45
question
21:46
for
21:46
thought,
21:47
ordinary
21:48
conceptual
21:49
thought.
21:50
It's
21:50
a
21:50
question
21:51
that
21:52
takes
21:52
us
21:52
into
21:53
our
21:53
depths,
21:53
into
21:54
openness,
21:55
into
21:55
an
21:55
innocent
21:56
availability
21:58
and
21:58
a
21:58
deep
21:59
listening
22:00
and
22:00
trusting.
22:01
Coming
22:01
back
22:02
to
22:02
your
22:02
point,
22:02
Roger,
22:03
that
22:04
there
22:04
is
22:04
something
22:05
profoundly
22:06
trustworthy
22:07
in
22:07
the
22:07
core
22:07
of
22:08
our
22:08
being
22:09
that
22:10
both
22:10
supports
22:11
us
22:12
and
22:13
nourishes
22:13
us
22:14
and
22:15
provides
22:16
meaningful
22:16
direction
22:18
as
22:18
well.
22:19
Yeah,
22:20
a
22:20
living
22:20
question.
22:21
Yeah,
22:22
it's
22:22
a
22:22
beautiful
22:23
reflection.
22:24
And
22:25
towards
22:26
the
22:26
end
22:26
of
22:26
your
22:27
book,
22:27
your
22:27
deepest
22:28
ground,
22:28
you
22:29
come
22:29
to
22:31
the
22:31
deepest
22:31
ground,
22:32
the
22:32
groundless
22:33
ground.
22:34
And
22:35
you've
22:36
been
22:36
alluding
22:36
to
22:36
this
22:37
at
22:37
several
22:37
points
22:38
in
22:38
our
22:38
discussion,
22:39
but
22:41
is
22:41
there
22:41
anything
22:42
else
22:42
you'd
22:42
like
22:42
to
22:42
say
22:43
about
22:43
this
22:44
groundless
22:44
ground
22:45
as
22:45
you
22:45
describe
22:46
it?
22:49
Well,
22:50
you
22:50
know,
22:50
here's
22:51
the
22:51
difficulty.
22:53
Putting
22:53
any
22:53
words
22:54
to
22:54
that
22:54
which
22:54
is
22:55
prior
22:55
to
22:55
words,
22:56
putting
22:57
any
22:57
images
22:58
to
22:58
that
22:58
which
22:59
is
22:59
prior
22:59
to
23:00
imagery.
23:01
I
23:02
will
23:02
say
23:02
this.
23:04
Usually
23:05
when
23:05
there
23:05
is
23:06
the
23:06
first
23:06
encounter
23:07
with.
23:07
It
23:07
is
23:08
an
23:08
encounter
23:09
with
23:09
darkness,
23:10
with
23:11
silence,
23:12
with
23:12
stillness,
23:13
with
23:14
a
23:14
sense
23:14
of
23:14
emptiness
23:17
and
23:18
the
23:18
sense
23:18
of
23:19
no
23:19
thing
23:20
or
23:20
no
23:21
thingness.
23:23
And
23:24
let's
23:24
say
23:24
we
23:25
have
23:25
gone
23:25
through
23:26
our
23:27
fear
23:28
of
23:28
being
23:29
nothing
23:29
and
23:29
no
23:30
one,
23:30
our
23:30
fear
23:31
of
23:31
annihilation.
23:31
And
23:32
there
23:32
is
23:32
an
23:32
openness
23:33
to
23:33
this.
23:34
It
23:35
has
23:35
that
23:35
quality,
23:35
profound
23:36
stillness
23:38
and
23:38
silence
23:39
and
23:40
darkness.
23:42
Not
23:42
referring
23:43
to
23:43
anyone
23:44
or
23:44
anything.
23:46
Even
23:47
the
23:47
sense
23:47
I
23:47
am
23:48
is
23:48
too
23:48
much
23:53
as
23:54
we
23:56
surrender
23:57
to
23:58
relax
23:59
into
23:59
trust,
24:00
this
24:01
no
24:01
thingness.
24:06
Very
24:06
often
24:08
there's
24:08
a
24:08
sense
24:08
of
24:09
pure
24:09
potentiality,
24:10
too.
24:12
It's
24:12
like
24:13
no
24:13
form,
24:17
no
24:17
one,
24:17
no
24:18
thing.
24:20
And
24:20
yet
24:21
a
24:21
sense
24:21
of
24:21
inherent
24:22
fullness
24:24
as
24:24
potentiality.
24:27
In
24:27
other
24:27
words,
24:27
the
24:28
darkness
24:28
is
24:28
brimming
24:29
with
24:29
light.
24:30
It's
24:30
pregnant
24:32
with
24:32
creativity
24:36
and
24:38
growing
24:39
trust
24:39
and
24:39
sensitivity
24:40
of
24:40
this.
24:42
There
24:43
is
24:43
a
24:43
natural
24:44
movement
24:46
of
24:47
that
24:47
luminosity
24:48
in
24:48
potential
24:49
into
24:49
form.
24:50
And
24:51
we
24:51
can
24:51
feel
24:51
it
24:52
as
24:52
an
24:52
upwelling
24:53
current
24:53
of
24:53
life.
24:55
Not
24:56
that
24:56
it
24:57
happens
24:57
in
24:58
such
24:58
a
24:58
linear
24:59
or
24:59
hierarchical
25:00
way
25:00
because
25:00
it
25:00
can
25:00
happen
25:01
at
25:01
any
25:01
point.
25:01
We
25:02
can
25:02
have
25:02
glimpses
25:02
of
25:03
this
25:03
before
25:03
and
25:04
openings
25:04
and
25:04
closings.
25:06
But
25:06
the
25:06
more
25:06
we
25:07
are
25:08
at
25:08
ease
25:10
and
25:10
grounded
25:12
in
25:12
this
25:12
openness
25:13
and
25:13
that's
25:14
the
25:14
paradoxical,
25:15
you
25:15
know,
25:15
here's
25:15
language
25:16
that's
25:16
so
25:16
paradoxical
25:18
in
25:18
the
25:18
darkness,
25:18
in
25:19
the
25:19
stillness,
25:19
in
25:20
the
25:20
silence,
25:20
in
25:20
the
25:21
no
25:21
thingness.
25:22
The
25:23
more
25:23
there
25:23
is
25:23
just
25:24
a
25:24
natural
25:24
relaxation,
25:25
recognition
25:27
of
25:27
this
25:29
as
25:30
true
25:31
as
25:31
source,
25:33
the
25:33
more
25:34
we
25:34
are
25:34
open
25:35
to
25:37
an
25:37
essential
25:38
life
25:39
moving
25:39
through
25:39
us.
25:41
And
25:41
it
25:41
feels
25:42
like
25:43
the
25:43
word
25:43
source
25:44
has
25:44
its
25:45
root
25:45
in
25:46
French.
25:46
Source,
25:47
spring.
25:48
It
25:48
has
25:48
a
25:49
spring
25:49
like
25:50
quality,
25:50
an
25:50
upwelling
25:52
creative
25:52
energy
25:54
that
25:54
begins
25:55
to
25:56
move
25:56
through
25:57
us.
25:57
And
25:57
if
25:57
we're
25:58
sensitive,
25:59
we
25:59
can
25:59
feel
25:59
that.
26:00
And
26:00
we
26:00
can
26:00
feel
26:01
it
26:01
as
26:01
a
26:01
kind
26:01
of
26:01
inner
26:03
light,
26:04
inner
26:04
luminosity,
26:05
inner
26:06
aliveness
26:07
that
26:08
begins
26:08
to
26:08
move
26:09
through
26:09
us.
26:10
And
26:10
its
26:10
natural
26:11
movement
26:12
is
26:13
up
26:13
and
26:14
out,
26:16
an
26:16
outpouring,
26:17
an
26:18
upwelling
26:19
and
26:19
an
26:19
outpouring.
26:20
So
26:22
some
26:22
people
26:22
feel
26:23
this,
26:23
some
26:23
people
26:23
don't.
26:24
And
26:24
it's
26:24
not
26:24
necessary
26:25
to
26:25
feel
26:27
can
26:27
be.
26:28
I
26:28
have
26:28
found
26:28
a
26:29
wide
26:29
range
26:29
of
26:30
sensitivity
26:31
to
26:31
this
26:31
process.
26:36
And
26:36
as
26:36
I
26:37
suggested
26:37
earlier,
26:38
what
26:38
initially
26:38
feels
26:39
like
26:39
a
26:39
downward
26:40
opening
26:40
into
26:41
like
26:41
just
26:41
infinite
26:42
darkness
26:43
and
26:43
stillness
26:43
below
26:45
becomes
26:45
more
26:45
global.
26:47
It's
26:47
like
26:47
360,
26:48
it's
26:48
non
26:49
directional.
26:50
Right.
26:50
And
26:50
it
26:51
also
26:51
has
26:51
the
26:51
qualities
26:52
of
26:52
the
26:52
other
26:53
portals.
26:54
Quality
26:54
of
26:54
love,
26:55
quality
26:56
of
26:56
just
26:57
brilliant
26:57
clarity,
26:59
diamond
26:59
like
27:00
clarity
27:01
as
27:01
well.
27:03
And
27:04
you
27:04
have
27:04
a
27:04
beautiful
27:05
sentence
27:05
there.
27:06
You
27:06
say
27:06
the
27:06
truth
27:07
of
27:07
who
27:07
we
27:07
are
27:08
is
27:08
an
27:09
inexpressible
27:10
openness.
27:12
Yeah,
27:12
I
27:12
just
27:13
love
27:13
that.
27:13
Love
27:14
that
27:14
statement.
27:15
Yeah.
27:18
So
27:18
there's
27:19
another
27:19
aspect
27:20
of
27:20
your
27:20
work
27:21
that
27:21
isn't
27:22
so
27:22
such
27:23
a
27:23
central
27:23
part
27:24
of
27:24
your
27:24
book.
27:25
Your
27:25
deepest
27:25
ground.
27:26
It's
27:26
implied,
27:27
but
27:28
it's
27:28
something
27:28
which
27:29
you
27:29
seem
27:29
to
27:29
have
27:29
stepped
27:30
into
27:30
more.
27:31
And
27:31
that
27:31
is
27:32
a
27:32
bringing
27:33
of
27:34
these
27:35
profound
27:36
perspectives.
27:38
Your
27:38
work
27:38
is
27:38
sometimes
27:39
described
27:39
as
27:41
non
27:41
dual.
27:42
You're
27:42
sometimes
27:42
described
27:43
as
27:43
non
27:43
dual
27:44
teacher.
27:45
Of
27:45
late,
27:45
you
27:46
have
27:46
been
27:47
bringing
27:47
this
27:48
perspective
27:49
to
27:49
bear
27:49
on
27:49
the
27:50
great
27:50
issues
27:50
of
27:51
our
27:51
time
27:52
and
27:53
speaking
27:53
to
27:54
the
27:54
ways
27:54
in
27:54
which
27:55
these
27:55
profound
27:57
recognitions
27:57
and
27:59
understandings
28:00
of
28:00
who
28:01
we
28:01
are
28:01
and
28:01
who
28:02
we
28:02
can
28:02
recognize
28:02
ourselves
28:03
to
28:03
be
28:04
can
28:05
inform
28:05
and
28:06
inspire
28:07
social
28:07
activism
28:08
and
28:09
working
28:09
with
28:10
the
28:10
great
28:11
issues
28:11
that
28:11
we
28:12
face.
28:12
Love
28:12
to
28:13
hear
28:13
you
28:13
speak
28:13
to
28:13
that.
28:15
This
28:15
is
28:16
an
28:16
emergent
28:17
aspect
28:17
and
28:18
it's
28:18
been
28:18
implicit,
28:19
I
28:19
think.
28:20
And
28:20
I've
28:21
always
28:21
been
28:22
kind
28:22
of
28:22
engaged
28:23
politically
28:23
and
28:24
interested
28:24
what's
28:24
going
28:25
on
28:25
relative
28:26
level,
28:27
although
28:27
my
28:27
primary
28:28
focus
28:28
has
28:29
been
28:29
on
28:30
inner
28:30
healing
28:30
and
28:31
awakening.
28:32
So
28:33
this
28:33
is.
28:33
It
28:33
feels
28:33
like
28:34
a
28:34
response
28:35
to
28:35
the
28:35
times
28:35
in
28:36
a
28:36
way.
28:37
It's
28:37
like
28:37
there
28:37
is,
28:38
given
28:39
how
28:39
precious
28:40
this
28:41
Understanding
28:41
is
28:42
how
28:42
deep,
28:42
how
28:42
profound,
28:43
how
28:43
life
28:43
transformative.
28:45
The
28:45
question
28:45
is
28:46
then,
28:46
how
28:46
does
28:47
this
28:47
wish
28:47
to
28:47
move
28:47
in
28:48
the
28:48
world
28:48
now,
28:49
in
28:49
response,
28:51
what
28:51
would
28:51
an
28:52
engaged
28:52
non
28:53
duality
28:54
or
28:54
non
28:55
dual
28:55
orientation
28:55
or
28:56
approach
28:56
begin
28:57
to
28:57
look
28:57
like?
28:58
And
28:59
one
28:59
of
28:59
the
28:59
reasons
28:59
I
29:00
think
29:00
that
29:01
this
29:01
has
29:01
been.
29:02
There
29:02
are
29:02
a
29:02
number
29:03
of
29:03
reasons,
29:03
I
29:03
imagine,
29:04
why
29:04
this
29:04
hasn't
29:05
been
29:05
articulated
29:06
so
29:07
far.
29:07
One
29:08
is
29:08
that
29:08
non
29:08
dual
29:09
teachings
29:09
have
29:09
been
29:10
historically
29:11
more
29:11
transcendent,
29:12
more
29:13
concerned
29:13
with
29:14
individual
29:14
liberation.
29:16
And
29:16
this
29:17
is
29:17
true
29:17
in
29:17
Advaita,
29:18
but
29:19
also
29:19
in
29:19
other
29:20
non
29:20
dual
29:21
teachings
29:21
within
29:22
Buddhist
29:22
traditions
29:23
and
29:23
other
29:23
contemplative
29:24
traditions.
29:25
But
29:26
the
29:27
essential
29:27
recognition
29:29
of
29:29
non
29:29
separateness
29:31
or
29:31
oneness,
29:33
that
29:34
self
29:35
and
29:35
other,
29:36
the
29:36
distinction
29:37
between
29:38
there
29:38
are
29:38
differences,
29:40
there
29:40
are
29:40
distinctions,
29:41
but
29:41
not
29:41
a
29:42
fundamental
29:42
difference
29:43
is
29:43
really
29:44
where
29:44
this
29:44
comes
29:44
from.
29:45
Because
29:45
we're
29:45
so.
29:46
So
29:46
much
29:46
of
29:46
conflict
29:48
is
29:48
around
29:48
us
29:48
and
29:49
them,
29:49
around
29:50
our
29:50
egocentric
29:51
perspective.
29:53
And
29:53
as
29:53
collective,
29:55
we
29:55
have
29:56
identities
29:56
as
29:57
groups
29:57
and
29:57
we
29:57
have
29:58
identities
29:58
as
29:58
individuals,
29:59
but
29:59
they're
30:00
always
30:00
separative,
30:01
there's
30:01
always
30:01
an
30:02
us
30:02
and
30:02
them.
30:03
And
30:03
therefore
30:04
we're
30:04
fighting
30:05
from
30:06
one
30:06
perspective
30:07
to
30:07
another.
30:08
And
30:09
it
30:09
feels
30:09
to
30:10
me
30:11
that
30:11
even
30:11
though
30:12
it's
30:12
a
30:12
relatively
30:13
small
30:15
community
30:16
of
30:16
deep
30:16
contemplatives
30:18
who
30:18
are
30:19
in
30:19
the
30:19
process
30:20
of
30:20
recognizing
30:21
this
30:21
deeper
30:22
truth,
30:23
it
30:23
is
30:23
an
30:23
essential
30:24
one
30:24
to
30:24
bring
30:25
into
30:25
ordinary
30:26
life
30:27
and
30:27
particularly
30:28
to
30:28
the
30:28
pressing
30:29
issues.
30:30
And
30:30
the
30:31
issue
30:31
that's
30:31
been
30:31
most
30:32
pressing
30:32
for
30:32
me
30:32
has
30:33
been
30:33
climate
30:33
change
30:34
and
30:35
climate
30:35
disruption.
30:36
Because
30:36
we
30:36
are
30:36
facing
30:37
an
30:38
existential
30:38
crisis
30:39
that
30:40
we
30:40
have
30:40
never
30:40
faced
30:40
as
30:41
humanity
30:41
before.
30:42
And
30:42
it's
30:42
one
30:42
that
30:42
we've
30:43
caused
30:43
ourselves.
30:44
And
30:45
it
30:45
is
30:45
deeply
30:46
our
30:46
economics,
30:47
our
30:47
system
30:47
of
30:47
governance.
30:48
Governance
30:49
is
30:49
deeply
30:49
rooted
30:50
in
30:50
this
30:50
egocentric
30:51
perspective.
30:53
And
30:54
therefore
30:55
to
30:55
come
30:56
from
30:56
a
30:56
different
30:56
perspective,
30:58
to
30:58
introduce
30:59
this
30:59
clarity
31:00
and
31:00
understanding
31:01
in
31:02
a
31:02
way
31:02
that
31:02
feels
31:03
authentic
31:03
to
31:03
us,
31:04
to
31:05
whatever
31:05
roles
31:06
we're
31:06
given,
31:07
if
31:07
we
31:07
have
31:07
a
31:07
role
31:07
in
31:08
leadership
31:08
in
31:08
government
31:09
or
31:09
business,
31:10
if
31:10
we're
31:10
in
31:11
a
31:11
teaching
31:11
role,
31:11
if
31:12
we're
31:13
writing
31:14
or
31:14
we
31:15
have
31:15
podcasts,
31:16
if
31:16
we
31:16
have
31:16
conversations
31:17
with
31:18
friends
31:18
and
31:18
family,
31:19
if
31:20
we're
31:21
organizing
31:21
groups
31:22
that
31:22
have
31:23
kindred
31:24
spirits,
31:25
contemplatives,
31:26
to
31:26
take
31:27
action
31:28
from
31:28
this
31:29
awareness.
31:30
I
31:30
think
31:31
this
31:31
is
31:32
a
31:32
very
31:33
important
31:33
contribution
31:34
to
31:34
make.
31:34
I
31:34
don't
31:35
think
31:35
it's
31:35
the
31:35
only
31:35
one.
31:36
I
31:36
don't
31:36
think
31:36
it's
31:36
sufficient
31:37
in
31:37
itself.
31:38
I
31:38
think
31:39
we
31:40
need
31:40
our
31:40
scientists,
31:41
we
31:41
need
31:41
our
31:42
all
31:43
hands
31:43
on
31:43
deck,
31:44
really,
31:45
all
31:45
resources,
31:46
our
31:46
best
31:46
resources,
31:47
our
31:47
best
31:48
minds,
31:48
our
31:48
best
31:49
hearts
31:49
to
31:49
engage
31:50
and
31:50
to
31:51
do
31:51
so
31:51
collectively,
31:52
because
31:53
individually
31:53
it's
31:54
not
31:54
enough.
31:55
There's
31:56
this
31:56
idea.
31:57
This
31:57
came
31:57
up
31:57
in
31:57
the
31:58
non
31:58
dual
31:59
roundtable
31:59
of
31:59
frequency
32:00
holders.
32:02
It's
32:03
an
32:03
idea
32:03
apparently
32:03
introduced
32:04
by
32:04
Eckhart
32:05
Tolle
32:05
that
32:06
it's
32:06
enough
32:06
just
32:07
to
32:07
radiate
32:08
consciousness.
32:09
And
32:09
I
32:09
would
32:09
say
32:10
perhaps
32:11
that's
32:11
true
32:11
for
32:11
a
32:11
few
32:11
individuals
32:12
like
32:12
Ramana
32:13
Maharshi.
32:14
But
32:14
I
32:14
think
32:15
for
32:15
most
32:15
of
32:15
us,
32:16
we
32:16
can
32:16
be
32:17
frequency
32:18
holders,
32:18
but
32:19
also
32:19
frequency
32:20
actors.
32:21
We
32:21
can
32:21
act
32:22
from
32:23
this
32:23
deeper,
32:24
more
32:25
inclusive,
32:25
less
32:26
separative
32:26
awareness
32:28
and
32:29
not
32:29
only
32:29
radiating
32:30
that
32:30
into
32:31
the
32:31
field
32:31
of
32:31
consciousness,
32:32
the
32:32
shared
32:32
field,
32:33
which
32:33
has
32:33
its
32:33
value,
32:34
but
32:34
also
32:35
acting
32:35
from
32:35
that.
32:36
Now
32:36
the
32:37
interesting
32:37
challenge
32:38
is
32:38
it's
32:38
going
32:38
to
32:38
look
32:38
different
32:38
for
32:39
different
32:39
people.
32:40
There
32:40
are
32:40
always
32:40
going
32:40
to
32:41
be
32:41
conservatives,
32:41
there's
32:42
always
32:42
going
32:42
to
32:42
be
32:42
progressives.
32:44
And
32:44
so
32:45
it's
32:45
not
32:46
taking
32:46
a
32:46
particular
32:47
point
32:47
of
32:47
view.
32:48
It's
32:49
actually
32:49
the
32:49
willingness
32:50
to
32:50
step
32:50
back
32:51
and
32:51
entertain
32:52
many
32:52
perspectives
32:53
in
32:53
many
32:53
views
32:54
and
32:55
hold
32:55
one's
32:55
own
32:55
view
32:55
lightly
32:56
and
32:56
still
32:57
act
32:57
in
32:58
a
32:58
way
32:58
from
32:59
compassion
33:00
and
33:00
from
33:01
a
33:01
deep
33:01
understanding.
33:02
So
33:02
this
33:03
is,
33:03
it's
33:03
more
33:04
an
33:04
invitation
33:04
to
33:05
contemplative
33:05
communities
33:06
of
33:06
the
33:06
non
33:06
dual
33:07
orientation
33:07
to
33:08
ask
33:08
the
33:08
question,
33:10
what
33:10
is
33:10
a
33:10
natural
33:10
response
33:11
to
33:12
this
33:12
threat?
33:13
Existential,
33:14
genuine
33:14
existential
33:15
threat.
33:16
Because
33:18
as
33:19
beings
33:19
that
33:19
are
33:19
interdependent
33:20
with
33:21
all
33:21
of
33:21
life
33:21
in
33:22
the
33:22
biosphere,
33:24
if
33:25
this
33:25
experiment
33:26
fails,
33:27
there's
33:27
not
33:27
going
33:28
to
33:28
be
33:28
any
33:29
wisdom
33:29
tradition
33:30
around,
33:30
not
33:31
on
33:31
this
33:31
planet.
33:32
So
33:33
that's
33:34
a
33:34
brief
33:34
overview
33:35
of
33:35
what,
33:35
how
33:35
this
33:36
has
33:36
been
33:36
moving.
33:37
And
33:37
so
33:38
I've
33:38
been
33:39
doing
33:39
some
33:39
teaching
33:40
in
33:40
person
33:41
and
33:41
online
33:41
and
33:42
building
33:42
a
33:42
community
33:43
around
33:44
engaged
33:44
non
33:44
duality.
33:45
And
33:45
hopefully
33:46
this
33:46
process
33:47
will
33:47
continue
33:47
with
33:48
others
33:48
as
33:48
well,
33:49
inviting
33:49
other
33:50
non
33:50
dual
33:50
teachers
33:51
to
33:51
engage
33:51
in
33:51
that.
33:54
Thank
33:54
you
33:54
very
33:54
much.
33:55
This
33:55
clearly
33:56
one
33:56
of
33:56
the
33:57
great
33:58
issues
33:58
and
33:58
questions
33:59
of
33:59
our
33:59
time
34:00
is
34:01
how
34:01
do
34:01
we
34:01
bring
34:02
whatever,
34:03
whatever
34:04
capacities
34:04
we
34:04
have,
34:05
and
34:05
in
34:05
this
34:05
particular
34:06
case,
34:06
how
34:06
do
34:07
we
34:07
bring
34:08
any
34:08
understanding,
34:09
psychological,
34:10
spiritual,
34:11
we
34:11
have
34:11
gained
34:12
to
34:14
both
34:14
act,
34:15
act
34:15
from,
34:16
as
34:16
you're
34:16
saying,
34:17
act
34:17
from
34:18
a
34:18
hopefully
34:19
a
34:19
little
34:20
wiser,
34:20
a
34:20
little
34:20
more
34:21
gentler
34:22
and
34:22
appreciative
34:23
stance.
34:24
And
34:25
how
34:26
do
34:26
we
34:26
use,
34:27
allow
34:27
ourselves
34:28
to
34:28
be
34:28
used
34:28
as
34:29
optimal
34:29
instruments
34:30
of
34:30
service?
34:31
Exactly.
34:32
And
34:33
that's
34:33
a
34:33
willingness
34:34
to
34:34
kind
34:34
of
34:34
come
34:34
out.
34:35
It's
34:35
a
34:35
coming
34:35
out
34:35
process.
34:37
It's
34:37
one
34:37
thing
34:38
very
34:38
interesting
34:38
to
34:39
have
34:39
worked
34:39
with
34:39
people
34:39
for
34:40
so
34:40
long
34:40
and
34:41
to
34:41
see
34:41
the
34:42
hesitancy
34:42
that
34:43
people
34:43
feel
34:43
to
34:44
bring
34:44
out
34:44
the
34:44
light
34:44
of
34:44
awareness
34:45
because
34:45
it's
34:46
so
34:46
sacred,
34:47
it's
34:48
so
34:48
precious,
34:48
it's
34:49
carefully
34:49
guarded.
34:50
And
34:50
very
34:51
often
34:51
early
34:51
on
34:52
we
34:52
decide
34:52
that
34:53
it's
34:54
not
34:54
welcome
34:54
or
34:54
safe
34:55
to
34:55
bring
34:55
that
34:55
into
34:55
the
34:56
world.
34:56
And
34:56
so
34:57
the
34:57
awakening,
34:58
the
34:58
opening
34:58
very
34:59
often
35:00
and
35:00
opening
35:00
of
35:00
the
35:01
heart
35:01
and
35:01
opening
35:01
of
35:01
the
35:02
ground
35:02
very
35:02
often
35:02
involves
35:03
going
35:03
through
35:04
this
35:04
fear
35:04
and
35:04
inhibition
35:05
to
35:06
really
35:06
come
35:06
out
35:07
in
35:07
the
35:08
full
35:08
luminosity
35:09
of
35:10
our
35:10
core
35:11
being.
35:11
And
35:12
this
35:12
is
35:12
like
35:12
bringing
35:13
it
35:13
out
35:13
further,
35:14
you
35:14
know,
35:14
bringing
35:14
it
35:15
out
35:15
into
35:15
the
35:15
sphere
35:16
of
35:16
political
35:17
action.
35:17
And
35:18
how
35:18
can
35:18
we
35:19
move
35:19
not
35:19
from
35:20
fear,
35:21
but
35:21
from
35:21
love,
35:23
not
35:23
from
35:24
limited
35:24
understanding,
35:25
but
35:25
from
35:25
a
35:26
deeper
35:26
wisdom,
35:26
a
35:27
transrational
35:28
wisdom.
35:29
So
35:30
I
35:30
don't
35:30
see
35:30
it
35:30
as
35:30
a
35:31
mass
35:31
movement
35:32
because
35:32
most
35:32
people
35:33
aren't
35:33
that
35:34
interested
35:34
or
35:34
motivated
35:35
to
35:35
go
35:35
to
35:35
these
35:36
kind
35:36
of
35:36
depths
35:37
of
35:37
exploration.
35:38
And
35:39
why
35:39
some
35:39
people
35:39
do
35:39
and
35:40
some
35:40
people
35:40
don't
35:40
is
35:41
a
35:41
complete
35:41
mystery.
35:42
But
35:42
for
35:43
those
35:43
of
35:43
us
35:43
who
35:43
do,
35:44
those
35:44
of
35:45
us
35:45
who
35:45
are
35:46
deep
35:46
contemplatives,
35:47
who
35:48
also
35:48
care
35:48
deeply
35:50
about
35:50
the
35:50
planet
35:51
and
35:51
about
35:51
our
35:52
fellow
35:52
human
35:52
beings
35:53
and
35:53
fellow
35:54
beings
35:54
of
35:54
all
35:54
kinds,
35:55
it
35:56
means
35:56
opening
35:56
a
35:56
heart
35:57
to
35:57
collective
35:57
suffering.
35:58
That's
35:58
another
35:59
reason
35:59
why
35:59
these
36:00
traditions
36:00
have
36:00
kind
36:00
of
36:00
kept
36:01
a
36:01
distance.
36:02
It's
36:02
like
36:02
if
36:02
we're
36:03
opening
36:03
to
36:03
suffering,
36:04
not
36:04
getting
36:05
lost
36:05
in
36:05
it,
36:06
not
36:06
fixating
36:06
on
36:07
it,
36:07
feeling
36:08
the
36:08
grief,
36:08
feeling
36:09
the
36:09
loss,
36:10
feeling
36:10
the
36:10
despair,
36:11
feeling
36:12
what's
36:12
behind
36:13
that
36:13
too,
36:14
and
36:14
to
36:15
sense
36:15
there
36:15
is
36:15
a
36:16
greater
36:16
love
36:16
and
36:17
a
36:17
greater
36:17
presence
36:18
here
36:18
available
36:19
as
36:19
a
36:19
resource
36:20
for
36:20
all
36:20
of
36:20
us.
36:21
Like
36:22
one
36:22
of
36:22
the
36:22
things
36:22
that
36:22
happens
36:23
with
36:23
activists
36:23
is
36:24
they
36:24
get
36:24
burned
36:24
out
36:25
very,
36:26
very
36:26
quickly
36:27
and
36:27
just
36:27
given
36:28
the
36:28
scope
36:28
of
36:28
resistance
36:29
and
36:29
the
36:29
difficulty
36:30
of
36:30
issues
36:31
that
36:31
they're
36:31
working
36:32
on.
36:32
So
36:33
one
36:33
specific
36:34
way
36:35
that
36:35
those
36:35
of
36:36
us
36:36
who
36:36
are
36:36
deep
36:36
contemplatives
36:37
can
36:37
help
36:38
is
36:38
to
36:38
help
36:38
resource
36:39
others
36:40
who
36:40
are
36:41
out
36:41
and
36:42
very
36:42
active.
36:42
But
36:43
we
36:43
can
36:43
be
36:43
activists
36:44
ourselves.
36:45
And
36:45
it's
36:45
about
36:45
finding
36:46
what
36:46
form
36:47
that's
36:47
true
36:47
for
36:48
us
36:48
and
36:48
finding
36:49
others,
36:49
because
36:50
it
36:50
has
36:50
to
36:50
be.
36:51
We
36:51
have
36:51
to
36:51
affiliate.
36:52
You
36:52
know,
36:53
I
36:53
think
36:53
we
36:53
have
36:53
to
36:54
strengthen
36:55
numbers
36:56
as
36:56
well.
36:56
So
36:56
it's
36:57
where
36:57
it's
36:57
coming
36:57
from.
36:58
And
36:59
you
36:59
know,
37:00
we
37:00
were
37:00
just
37:00
talking
37:01
at
37:01
the
37:02
beginning
37:02
of
37:02
the
37:02
program
37:02
about
37:03
the
37:03
recent
37:03
election
37:04
two
37:04
days
37:04
ago
37:05
and
37:05
how
37:06
to
37:06
respond
37:06
and
37:07
feeling
37:08
many
37:09
people
37:09
feeling
37:10
disheartened
37:10
and,
37:11
and
37:12
shocked
37:13
and
37:13
despairing.
37:15
And
37:15
these
37:15
are
37:16
very
37:16
understandable
37:17
responses.
37:18
What's
37:18
important
37:18
is
37:19
that
37:19
we
37:19
really
37:20
get
37:20
quiet,
37:21
dig
37:21
deep,
37:22
find
37:22
that
37:23
depth
37:23
of
37:24
heart
37:24
and
37:24
depth
37:25
of
37:25
ground
37:25
and
37:26
respond
37:27
from
37:27
there.
37:27
To
37:28
not
37:28
be
37:28
discouraged
37:29
by
37:31
lies,
37:31
deception,
37:32
by
37:33
the
37:33
appeals
37:34
to
37:34
basic
37:34
instincts
37:35
of
37:35
fear
37:36
and
37:36
anger,
37:38
rather
37:38
than
37:38
getting
37:38
lost
37:39
in
37:39
that,
37:40
to
37:40
actually
37:40
go
37:40
deeper
37:41
and
37:42
come
37:42
from
37:42
a
37:43
deeper
37:43
and
37:43
truer
37:44
place.
37:44
And
37:44
I
37:44
think
37:44
maybe
37:47
just
37:48
here
37:48
and
37:48
there,
37:48
or
37:49
maybe
37:49
councils
37:50
of
37:51
wise
37:52
beings
37:52
coming
37:53
together
37:53
and
37:54
assisting
37:55
various
37:56
organizations
37:56
could
37:57
be
37:57
one
37:57
form
37:57
that
37:57
that
37:58
might
37:58
take.
37:59
There's
38:00
a
38:00
deep
38:02
cult
38:02
like
38:03
spell
38:04
that
38:04
many
38:05
people
38:05
in
38:05
our
38:05
country
38:06
are
38:06
caught
38:06
up
38:06
in.
38:07
Where
38:07
you,
38:07
if
38:07
you.
38:08
And
38:08
I've
38:08
experienced
38:09
this
38:09
personally,
38:09
if
38:10
you
38:10
even
38:10
suggest
38:11
that
38:11
humans
38:11
have
38:12
any
38:12
responsibility
38:14
about
38:14
what's
38:14
going
38:14
on
38:15
in
38:15
the
38:15
world
38:15
and
38:15
the
38:15
weather
38:16
and
38:16
nature
38:16
and
38:16
all
38:16
that,
38:17
they
38:17
get
38:17
Very
38:17
angry.
38:18
You
38:18
know,
38:19
we
38:19
don't
38:19
like
38:19
to
38:19
have
38:19
our
38:20
worldview
38:20
challenged.
38:21
Right.
38:21
And
38:21
there's
38:22
an
38:22
art
38:22
to
38:22
doing
38:22
that,
38:23
and
38:23
there's
38:23
an
38:24
art
38:24
to
38:24
being
38:24
with
38:24
someone
38:25
who
38:25
has
38:25
a
38:25
very
38:26
different
38:26
perspective
38:27
and
38:28
from
38:29
ours
38:29
and
38:29
being
38:30
able
38:30
to
38:30
actually
38:30
see
38:31
through
38:31
that
38:31
and
38:31
feel
38:32
through
38:32
that
38:33
to
38:33
what
38:34
is
38:34
not
38:34
separate
38:35
and
38:35
what
38:35
is
38:36
shared
38:36
and
38:36
to
38:37
stay
38:37
in
38:37
touch
38:37
with
38:37
that,
38:38
like
38:38
heart
38:38
to
38:38
heart.
38:40
That's
38:40
very
38:41
precious
38:41
and
38:41
important.
38:43
Yeah.
38:44
And
38:44
a
38:44
practice
38:44
of
38:45
itself.
38:46
It
38:46
is.
38:46
Very
38:47
much
38:47
so.
38:47
Yeah.
38:49
Beautiful.
38:50
John,
38:50
we've
38:51
covered
38:51
a
38:51
lot
38:51
here,
38:52
and
38:52
you've
38:52
covered
38:53
a
38:53
lot
38:53
in
38:54
this
38:54
beautiful
38:54
book,
38:55
your
38:55
Deepest
38:55
Ground.
38:56
Is
38:56
there
38:56
anything
38:56
else
38:57
you'd
38:57
like
38:57
to
38:57
add?
39:00
Well,
39:00
I'm
39:01
grateful.
39:03
I'm
39:03
grateful
39:03
to
39:03
be
39:04
here.
39:04
I'm
39:04
just
39:04
grateful
39:05
in
39:05
general,
39:06
as
39:07
you
39:07
know.
39:07
I'm
39:08
grateful
39:08
to
39:09
be
39:09
alive
39:09
and
39:09
have
39:10
this
39:10
experience
39:11
in
39:11
this
39:12
mystery
39:12
of
39:12
life.
39:13
So
39:14
there's
39:15
that.
39:15
Grateful
39:15
to
39:16
be
39:16
able
39:16
to
39:17
have
39:17
this
39:17
conversation
39:18
with
39:18
you
39:18
and
39:19
grateful
39:19
for
39:19
the
39:20
work
39:20
that
39:20
both
39:20
of
39:20
you
39:20
do
39:21
in
39:21
your
39:22
podcasts.
39:23
And
39:24
as
39:25
far
39:25
as
39:25
the
39:25
theme
39:25
of
39:25
the
39:25
deep
39:26
ground,
39:30
I
39:31
think
39:31
I
39:31
come
39:31
back
39:31
to
39:32
the
39:32
theme
39:32
of
39:32
our
39:33
love
39:33
of
39:33
truth.
39:36
And
39:36
truth
39:36
not
39:37
as
39:37
an
39:37
ideology,
39:38
not
39:38
as
39:38
a
39:38
dogma,
39:39
not
39:39
as
39:39
a
39:39
particular
39:40
perspective,
39:40
but
39:41
the
39:41
truth
39:41
of
39:42
being,
39:42
the
39:43
truth
39:43
of
39:43
awareness
39:44
that
39:45
we
39:45
all
39:45
share
39:48
our
39:48
love
39:49
for
39:49
that
39:50
will
39:51
bring
39:51
us
39:52
to
39:52
the
39:52
depths
39:52
of
39:52
our
39:53
heart
39:53
and
39:54
the
39:54
depths
39:54
of
39:54
our
39:55
ground.
39:55
Our
39:56
love
39:56
for
39:57
that
39:57
comes
39:57
from
39:58
those.
39:59
Comes
39:59
from
40:00
that.
40:00
So,
40:00
like,
40:01
we're
40:01
following
40:01
the
40:01
love
40:02
or
40:02
devotion
40:03
to
40:04
what
40:04
is
40:04
most
40:04
precious
40:05
and
40:05
what
40:05
is
40:05
most
40:05
important,
40:06
and
40:07
to
40:07
let
40:07
that
40:07
be
40:07
our
40:08
guide,
40:09
I
40:10
think
40:10
that's
40:10
what's
40:10
important.
40:11
And
40:11
to
40:11
be
40:11
willing
40:12
to
40:13
feel
40:13
anything,
40:14
experience
40:15
anything,
40:16
see
40:16
anything,
40:17
know
40:17
anything
40:19
in
40:19
this
40:20
process
40:20
of
40:20
giving
40:21
ourselves
40:21
to
40:22
an
40:22
unfolding,
40:23
unfathomable
40:24
truth
40:24
of
40:25
who
40:25
we
40:25
really
40:25
are.
40:28
Beautiful.
40:29
Thank
40:29
you,
40:29
John.
40:29
And
40:30
thank
40:30
you
40:30
for
40:31
this
40:31
exquisite
40:32
book,
40:32
Your
40:33
Deepest
40:33
Ground.
40:35
Yeah.
40:35
And
40:35
you're
40:36
beautiful.
40:37
Sharing
40:37
right
40:37
now.
40:38
Very
40:38
moving.
40:39
Thank
40:39
you
40:40
very
40:40
much.
40:40
Yeah.
40:41
Genuinely
40:42
enjoyed
40:43
being
40:43
with
40:43
both
40:43
of
40:44
you.
40:46
Thank
40:46
you
40:47
very
40:47
much
40:47
for
40:47
being
40:48
a
40:48
part
40:48
of
40:48
this
40:48
conversation.
40:49
We
40:50
hope
40:50
that
40:50
you
40:50
were
40:50
moved,
40:51
as
40:51
we
40:51
are
40:52
moved,
40:52
being
40:52
part
40:52
of
40:52
it
40:53
ourselves.
40:54
We'd
40:54
also
40:54
like
40:54
to
40:54
say
40:55
that
40:55
this
40:55
is
40:55
being
40:56
funded
40:56
by
40:57
Roger
40:57
and
40:57
myself.
40:57
It
40:58
comes
40:58
out
40:58
of
40:58
our
40:58
pockets.
40:59
So
40:59
if
40:59
you
40:59
would
40:59
like
40:59
to
40:59
help
41:00
us
41:00
to.
41:01
Mainly
41:01
to
41:01
get
41:02
this
41:02
podcast
41:02
out
41:02
to
41:03
more
41:03
people
41:03
because
41:04
the
41:04
bigger
41:04
audience
41:04
have,
41:05
which
41:05
is
41:05
steadily
41:05
growing,
41:06
but
41:06
the
41:06
more
41:06
people
41:06
we
41:07
can
41:07
reach
41:07
and
41:07
the
41:07
more
41:07
marketing
41:08
we
41:08
can
41:08
do,
41:09
the
41:09
more
41:09
positive
41:10
effect
41:10
we
41:10
can
41:10
have
41:10
on
41:11
the
41:11
world.
41:11
So
41:11
we've
41:12
done
41:12
that
41:12
a
41:12
couple
41:12
of
41:12
ways.
41:13
But
41:13
we'd
41:13
like
41:13
you
41:13
to
41:13
buy
41:14
us
41:14
a
41:14
cup
41:14
of
41:14
coffee.
41:15
Very
41:15
simple.
41:15
And
41:16
I
41:16
do
41:16
that.
41:16
With
41:16
podcasts
41:17
that
41:17
I
41:18
support,
41:18
and
41:19
I
41:19
find
41:19
it's
41:19
very
41:20
satisfying.
41:20
So
41:21
thank
41:21
you
41:21
for
41:21
your
41:21
help,
41:22
thank
41:22
you
41:22
for
41:22
your
41:22
presence,
41:23
and
41:23
thank
41:23
you
41:23
for
41:24
all
41:24
you
41:24
are
41:24
and
41:25
all
41:25
you
41:25
do.
41:25
We
41:26
love
41:26
you.
41:34
Sam.