Latest / The Curve / RTC89: The cost of infertility with Brett Russo.

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RTC89: The cost of infertility with Brett Russo. · The Curve

0:00
Welcome to Raising the Curve, a podcast designed to teach you everything you need to know
0:05
to be better with your money.
0:07
And the wise words of Amy Schumer were slipping carrots into the brownie recipe.
0:11
I don't really get the saying.
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It's kind of like eating vegetables that actually taste good, you know, it's still not
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weird.
0:19
Are you on the script?
0:20
It's basically like saying, investing in finance can be boring but it totally doesn't
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need to be.
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OK, OK, so we're making it fun by putting the carrot.
0:31
OK, the vegetables are just good for you.
0:33
It's the brownie recipe.
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OK, we got there, we got there.
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OK, OK, well, you've really got a finance mate.
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Yeah, one of us has to.
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This is a joke.
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OK, come and learn alongside me from Vick Harris, ex-fun manager, where I'm going to ask
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all the questions that you wish you could.
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And I'm going to be eating all the brownie you wish you could.
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No, that's so not the joke, Vick.
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Oh, OK, just come and talk and learn and laugh with us.
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Because together, we really can raise the curve.
1:01
OK, so this is the third episode in our cost of being a woman miniseries.
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Woohoo!
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And today we're going to talk about something that is a little bit uncomfortable.
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Yes.
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But it's a very important conversation.
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And we're going to be speaking about the cost of fertility.
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I reckon this is going to make a lot of people like uncomfortable.
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The cost of fertility, not just literally, but also metaphorically in terms of emotional,
1:26
mental.
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It's like something you can't really quantify in just dollars.
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But before we get into it, we're going to speak to someone who's written a book
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and he's written a book on IVF and her journey through it and the cost and what that looks like.
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But before we do that, I kind of wanted to chat to you, Vick, about your experience
1:48
in this space.
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And when we were planning this episode, Vick was like, I don't really know how much I can say about this.
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I don't know.
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And I was like, I think that it's important to share.
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So basically, lockdown 2021, Vick and I were living together.
2:03
And you had not that long before broken up with your boyfriend.
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And decided to go down the route of getting your eggs frozen.
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But what was that process like in terms of deciding to do it?
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Was it always something you wanted to invest in?
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Yeah, I think, like you said, I just broken up with my boyfriend for like four years.
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I was in my 30s and I was like, I need to take control of my fertility situation as much as I can.
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Because I don't know when I'm going to meet the partner that I'm going to have children with.
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And so I was kind of like, how can I control as much as that I can't control?
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And so, yeah, I think it was a, oh gosh, I need to do something about it.
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And so I looked into egg retrieval.
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You know me, I'm a planner.
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I like to have everything planned.
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And for me, having some eggs on ice that I could come back to, when I need to,
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as an insurance blanket, that made me feel secure being in my 30s and being single.
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So that's what I needed to do.
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And I think I kind of underestimated the financial cost,
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but also the emotional cost and the toll it kind of takes on your body.
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And I was only doing the egg retrieval.
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That's only the first tiny, tiny part of IVF.
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Did you know how much it was going to cost?
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I didn't know until I started researching.
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I had no idea.
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You could have told me it was $1,000.
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You could have told me it was $50,000.
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I would have had no idea.
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But once I started researching and found out that one round of egg retrieval was $10,000 New Zealand dollars,
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I was okay with the fact that, okay, now I knew the amount, now I can plan for that.
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And I think I was lucky at the time that I had that in savings that I could spend on this.
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And this, for me, was a priority.
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You know, I think there's a big opportunity cost with cost of treatments for egg freezing,
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egg retrieval, IVF, all of that, that you're taking the money from somewhere else.
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And so I was fortunate enough that I had that in savings.
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So for me, this was a priority.
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So I was like, right, okay, I'm going to allocate that money to this procedure.
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So that I can have that piece of mind that I've got those eggs on ice.
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And what was the process like for you?
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Because I was like, on the couch having dinner and you'd be like, off to pin myself in the stomach.
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I think, yeah, I think in hindsight it was great that it was locked down.
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I didn't have to take time off work.
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I didn't have to explain to my colleagues what I was doing.
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I didn't even have to tell a lot of my friends what I was doing.
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And so I could kind of, again, you know me, just hibernate and deal with it myself.
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And I remember coming back from like the final stages of the egg retrieval.
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Do you mean when I picked you up?
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Yeah.
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I was just about to say I literally again picked you up from their point.
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Yeah, yeah.
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It was quite a special moment really.
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I thought we are partners.
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And I remember there was a card and flowers.
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And it was like, happy egg freezing day.
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And I was like, oh my god, bless.
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Very, very cute.
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But I think the emotional roller coaster I was unprepared for.
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Because at the time you were pretty chilled about it.
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At the time.
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I kept being like, are you sure you're okay?
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Do you want to talk about it?
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I am fine.
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I know because I thought that you were like really internalizing it.
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Because there's no way she's totally chilled about this.
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There must be more going on.
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But you did say I'm kind of all good.
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Yeah.
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And I was, I think it was more once you start, the hormones start to come in.
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And you become this person you're not.
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And you're like, this is me, but it's not me and you're kind of a bit all over the show.
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But again, thankfully I didn't have to explain to a lot of people.
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I could kind of just get through what was probably about a month or up six weeks myself.
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Yeah.
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I think also after the fact, after it was done was almost like this incredible sigh of relief.
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And it was almost like I was like 20 again.
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It's weird.
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It's terrible.
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I was just like, I had this new lease of life.
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And I didn't feel, I'm sorry if this is going to not sit well with people.
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But I didn't feel like a washed up old lady.
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Do you know, which is kind of what I did when I came out of a long-term relationship.
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And I was in my 30s and I was like, gosh, going, oh, gosh.
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So it was kind of like you kind of jumped back to me.
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And I was like, woohoo.
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I've got my eggs over there.
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I've got my life.
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You know, it was just kind of, yeah, I mean, I hadn't gone through the whole journey.
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I've just done a tiny portion of it.
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But that was, it was this new found freedom, which sounds so bad because.
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No, it doesn't.
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You can tell me free.
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But I think like for a lot of women in particular who want kids,
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and don't just want to have kids with someone that they're in a relationship for no reason,
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like they want to find the right person, be the right time, from a career, personal, etc.,
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financial side of things, I think it makes total sense that you felt freedom
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to make your life choices that you wanted to make without having to feel pressure
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to change your trajectory based on the fact you wanted kids in the next six months,
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year, two years.
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And even now, I'm not even slightly concerned with the fact that I'm in my mid-30s.
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And not on that journey yet.
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Whereas if I didn't have that and I hadn't done that in lockdown,
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I'd probably be a lot more scared right now about the fact that,
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you know, will I have children or, you know, that kind of thing.
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So on reflection, it was probably some of the best $10,000 I've ever spent.
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Yeah, I mean, the only regret I have would be not doing it earlier.
7:21
Sorry.
7:22
Well, it's because I've...
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I don't know, I've had this feeling like I'm going to be like on the older end of the spectrum
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if I'm like, you know, to have kids and find someone I want to have tiny humans with.
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But for me, it's just such a cost thing.
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Like, I desperately want to be able to.
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And I know it's a short-term pain for long-term games.
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Is that what I'm looking for?
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As I know, it's going to be cheaper now if I do it now,
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opposed to waiting and having to maybe three rounds of egg retrieval when I'm 37.
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But the thought of parting with $10,000 now is like quite an investment.
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Yeah.
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And I think that's also one thing I realized when I was doing it,
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I was like, I'm so fortunate that I have that money to be able to do this
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because I know, and even to this day,
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I've spoken to so many friends who would love to do it, but like yourself,
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but just don't have the money and kind of forward to.
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And that absolutely breaks my heart that if you're financially well off,
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you can have children like that thing.
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Yes, Barbaric.
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And so on this discussion,
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we wanted to talk to someone who had been through the full IVF process.
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And so we came across Brett Russo, who has, like,
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so I've said written an amazing book called The Underwear in my Sho,
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which I'm very intrigued to figure out.
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Yeah, we should ask her about that.
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Yes, definitely.
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We're going to talk to her about the five rounds of IVF.
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She's been through the financial toll, the emotional toll,
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the relationship toll, the physical toll, there's so many tolls.
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So I wanted to, before we bring her on, I'm just going to run through,
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I guess the different costs of IVF,
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because yes, she's based in the US,
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and she'll probably talk to the US cost, but in the UK,
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the average person can pay from 4,000 to 7,000 pounds for one cycle of IVF.
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And in Australia, the average cost can be from about 4,000 Australian dollars
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to about 12,000, but a lot of that is covered by media care,
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which is insurance in Australia, which is great.
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And the US can be anywhere up to around 30,000 dollars,
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US, which is wild.
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And depending on what health insurance you have there,
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depending on how much is covered,
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in New Zealand, yeah, it's not covered by health insurance,
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and it can cost anywhere between about 11,000 to 17,000.
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And there's different situations,
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insurance companies will cover you for certain situations,
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and obviously if you've got different insurance providers,
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but this is a bit of an on average in each country.
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So it is very much a privilege and a financial privilege
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to be able to go down the IVF journey.
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And the thing is, you can go through rounds and rounds and rounds,
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but it also doesn't mean success rates are also so key
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when it comes to IVF and IVF in different countries.
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I think in the US they have the highest success rates on average,
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just I think because of the technology and all of that.
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But for women aged between 40 and 44,
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there's a 20% chance that you will have a live birth after IVF,
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which is still quite low.
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So you could go through rounds and rounds and rounds,
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and still not have a live birth.
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Sorry, am I right in thinking?
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It's roughly like one in six women globally,
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experience and fertility,
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and like needs to go through this process.
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So it's actually, it's not that uncommon,
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as in a lot of us unfortunately,
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might be facing infertility,
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whether it's now or in the future.
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And so the fact that the stuff is so expensive,
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it's crazy that we don't talk about it more
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in terms of planning financially,
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that there's not more government help,
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employment help.
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It's a whole thing to think one in six women
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need to go through it like that's crazy.
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And it's because we're having children older,
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and therefore that leads to being less fertile,
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having complications, all of that.
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But it's only going to get worse and worse.
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Do you know what I mean?
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It's almost like a no brainer for governments,
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for companies, for insurance companies,
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to provide support for couples going through IVF.
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So Brett Russo before he speak to her,
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so she, at 38,
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she had a really great career,
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she had a loving partner,
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and she was ready to start a family.
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They tried naturally, it didn't happen.
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And so eventually she ended up going
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through five rounds of IVF,
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and it wasn't until the fourth round
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that they actually had two viable embryos,
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and they were both transferred and became her son.
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So I imagine that maybe they're kind of IVF twins.
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So welcome Brett.
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Are you in Jersey?
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I am.
11:59
I just think that sounds like a movie.
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I'm in Jersey.
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Sounds very romantic.
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Yeah.
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I don't know if it sounds romantic,
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but it definitely sounds corporate, I don't know.
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Yeah, no, no.
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Where you're sitting right now looks very shake.
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In fact, the opposite to corporate.
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Love your chair.
12:15
We need to upgrade our seating arrangement.
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Be careful, because those are not your seats.
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We're speaking in front of the person who owns them.
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Sorry.
12:21
No.
12:23
Hey, thank you so much for joining us.
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I think in terms of the books that you've written,
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the journey that you've been through,
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firstly, thank you for sharing that with the world,
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because I think there's not enough people who feel comfortable
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opening up about that.
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And she's using the word feel comfortable probably
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isn't even the right terminology,
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because I imagine there was nothing particularly comfortable
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about that, but a really important conversation
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to open up so that we can learn from each other.
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I just would love to know what actually inspired you to
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put pen to paper, because to write about five attempts
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at IVF, or not even speaking about all of the other
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mountains of conversations and emotional toll that
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would have come with that process,
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how did you get to a place where you were like,
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I need to share this?
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I mean, there's a few answers to that.
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When I was going through the journey on my own,
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I was feeling very dark, very lost,
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and I'm a pretty positive person,
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and it was a very difficult thing to do.
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So I started to write down my feelings
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just to help myself get through it,
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and I kept journaling through the process,
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and every time I would hit a hard point, I would say,
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all right, at least that's another thing I can write about.
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And then I kind of put it down for a while,
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and when I did get pregnant,
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I did a spoiler alert.
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Congratulations.
13:43
Thank you.
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I did write something on social media,
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saying, you know, alluding to the fact that we had issues,
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and then I went to bed.
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When I woke up the next morning,
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my inbox was filled with messages from women that I knew,
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saying, I'm going through this too.
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Thank you so much for sharing your story.
14:01
I feel so lost,
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and then I realized at that point that I had to break this book,
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and it became like a passion project, you know,
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and I just went for it.
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I'm intrigued to know where you came up with the title for the book.
14:13
I was reading it,
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and I was like,
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I think it's one of those ones you get once you've read the book.
14:18
Yeah, yeah.
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I mean, so it's called the underwear in my shoe,
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and every time you're going to the doctor's office,
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which is all the time,
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a few times a week when you're going through IVF,
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you just kind of like throw off your underwear
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and you like throw it in your shoe,
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and I would just sit there waiting for the doctor,
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just staring at my underwear in my shoe,
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and it just became like this focal point
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as I'd watched like my shoes change,
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my seasons change, you know.
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Anyone going through IVF probably knew,
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you know, wait a minute.
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I got that.
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This morning that looked at my bag
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that I was about to take to work,
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was like, oh, you're just bringing a spare pair of underwear.
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And I had like somehow accidentally dropped a pair
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of undies in my bag.
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But there was also,
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there was undies and then a giant cucumber,
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so it was quite like not anything related,
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but just.
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It was a snack, just for context.
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I don't believe it.
15:06
I don't buy the story.
15:09
No fear.
15:10
Oh gosh.
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I was wondering if you could provide,
15:14
I guess some insights into the different costs associated
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with IVF in different countries,
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or if just particularly the US,
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where you had experienced it.
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And I guess how these kind of impacted your relationship
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with your partner as well at the time.
15:31
You know, the financial part of IVF
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is a very, there's many layers to it.
15:36
And I've spoken to so many women
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through this process about that particular topic.
15:41
The costs of IVF are, it's a lot.
15:43
And insurance right now,
15:45
depending on the insurance you have,
15:47
most it's a battle to cover certain things.
15:50
In fact, my insurance at the time would say,
15:53
I'm not going to cover this if you're over 35.
15:55
And I'm like, well, I'm sure a majority of women
15:58
going through IVF are over 35.
16:00
So, you know, I would say one round,
16:03
I'm going to generalize is about $30,000.
16:07
You win in US dollars, yes.
16:10
Is that including the egg retrieval
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before you go through the cycles of IVF?
16:15
Or so that's including the egg retrievals.
16:18
But it's not including medications.
16:20
It's not including some of the genetic testing.
16:22
I mean, it's, it's a lot.
16:24
When it's all set and done,
16:25
I mean, you're looking at probably about $35,000, $40,000.
16:29
For one round.
16:30
Yes.
16:31
One, yeah.
16:32
Well, are you sure?
16:33
And again, that was years ago.
16:35
You know, that was how many years ago, seven years ago.
16:38
So I don't kind of change.
16:39
You add inflation onto that.
16:41
Yeah.
16:42
And things like genetic testing aren't, you know,
16:44
included insurance and things like that, which is tough.
16:47
And with that $30,000, let's take $30,000 as a rough number.
16:51
What amount of that is covered by insurance?
16:54
Is it the full amount?
16:55
Is it like you have to pay it up front
16:57
and then get reimbursed for insurance?
16:59
Like, how does it work in the US with insurance?
17:01
Okay.
17:02
So it's different for everyone.
17:05
There's a lot of, for insurances, don't even cover fertility treatments.
17:09
So you, I would say for anyone out there thinking they may need to do this,
17:12
talk to your provider first.
17:14
It does make a substantial difference.
17:16
I had insurance through my husband's company and then he switched jobs.
17:20
So I actually had two different insurances.
17:23
So I can talk to both of those.
17:25
The first insurance covered your first round.
17:28
That's quite amazing.
17:30
Like to think that there's like a whole round that's essentially paid for is quite cool.
17:34
Yeah.
17:35
And the other thing too is depending, they'll have a list of things like
17:39
you won't be able to go right into IVF.
17:41
Depending on your age, depending on your circumstance,
17:44
they'll say we want you to go through.
17:46
Mine was three rounds of IUI, which is something right before IVF.
17:51
Is it like hormone treatment?
17:53
Yeah.
17:54
It's basically they basically put a turkey beaster with your husband's sperm,
17:58
you know, make you force you to ovulate and kind of play,
18:01
like IUI is basically like putting the, I know,
18:05
I don't know how graphic you want to get on a financial page.
18:08
Yes.
18:09
Oh gosh.
18:10
So, but it's, it's abrasive.
18:12
Yeah.
18:13
And like I know my cousin who was younger,
18:15
she had to go through 10 rounds of IUI,
18:18
which is a horrible thing to go through.
18:20
I mean, they're hormones and I think they want to make sure it works
18:23
before you have to actually go through IVF,
18:25
which probably, you know, is a lot.
18:28
And my second insurance, they just covered 30,000.
18:31
However you want to spend it, 30,000 dollars.
18:34
Sorry, I was really not expecting any insurance.
18:37
I don't think that IVF is covered in Australia and New Zealand.
18:42
Do you know of that?
18:43
New Zealand isn't Australia, it is partially funded.
18:46
But again, it comes back to what you're saying.
18:48
There's so many criteria.
18:50
If you have issues conceiving, then you're much quicker,
18:55
or I guess you're more streamlined case.
18:57
If you're older, then you're probably less likely to be covered
19:00
because there's a success rate to lower.
19:02
Yeah, I'm just baffled that it's not universally funded in every region.
19:08
Because there's some companies now that are also funding
19:11
egg retrieval and IVF rounds, I think.
19:15
Yeah.
19:16
And that's a really interesting conversation
19:17
because I've seen people online be really negative towards that.
19:22
If a company was giving me the option to freeze my eggs
19:27
and I didn't have to pay for it out of my own pocket or paycheck
19:30
or IVF access, I mean, to me that would be a huge perk.
19:34
And it's not because I want to delay having kids
19:37
because I love my jobs so much and well.
19:40
It's because if I can't get pregnant naturally,
19:43
for that to be an option, that seems amazing.
19:46
Yeah, I mean, different insurance has covered different things.
19:49
I know we were talking about it before where you really do have to do the research
19:53
because certain insurances don't cover IVF at all.
19:56
And you really do have to have those conversations and know what option.
20:00
You know, a lot of times employers won't go for that option
20:03
because it's more expensive and most people don't need it.
20:06
But it is important to make sure that you're covered.
20:10
In terms of egg retrieval, I'm so passionate about this topic
20:13
because people don't talk about it.
20:16
And I think it would avoid so much cost on the other side if you have to go to it.
20:22
I mean, to get a 25 year old woman, have her eggs frozen,
20:27
it's probably say a $5,000 investment.
20:31
But it's not covered in the US.
20:34
And hopefully you never need it.
20:36
Hopefully you never need it.
20:37
But if you do, it's saving the insurance companies and you,
20:41
I mean, thousands and thousands of dollars.
20:43
So I think it's ridiculous that it's not spoken about more with,
20:47
you know, even with your gynecologist.
20:49
And, you know, it's definitely an option.
20:51
I wish I knew about when I was younger.
20:53
Absolutely.
20:54
People just don't talk about it enough.
20:56
I never actually thought about it like that.
20:58
It's kind of, if you've got younger eggs, more fertile eggs,
21:02
that you've retrieved in your 20s,
21:05
that's going to save you so much more procedures and costs
21:09
and IVF treatment down the track.
21:11
Yeah, because as you get older, you know, your egg count
21:14
goes down substantially.
21:15
And your egg quality goes down substantially.
21:18
So there's many reasons that you have to go through IVF.
21:21
It's not just eggs.
21:22
Yeah.
21:23
But the problem with eggs is like sperm, you can keep making sperm.
21:26
Eggs you can't.
21:27
You have the amount of eggs you're going to have when you're born.
21:30
So, you know, as you get older, if egg quality is an issue,
21:33
that's what causes the miscarriages.
21:35
That's what causes you unable to actually conceive.
21:40
And having 25-year-old eggs is very different than 40-year-old eggs,
21:43
or 35-year-old eggs.
21:45
And that's stuff I didn't know about.
21:47
The thing that's annoying because I've known about this ironically very early.
21:51
I don't know what came over me,
21:53
but at about 26 when I was working in Australia,
21:56
I remember researching this and contacting IVF clinics
21:59
because I knew I didn't want to have kids until I was later.
22:02
And I remember looking into it and thinking,
22:04
I would love to get this done now.
22:06
But I still couldn't afford it at that time.
22:08
It was still about $6,000 when it was covered semi by the government.
22:13
And I, it was just not an option.
22:16
I didn't have $6,000 lying around to do it.
22:18
And as time's gone on, my financial priorities,
22:22
I've never been able to prioritize egg retrieval.
22:25
And I know that it would save me a lot of money in the future
22:28
if I was to do it earlier.
22:29
But I may be.
22:31
Yeah.
22:32
But I just haven't even been in that position.
22:33
But it is interesting to hear that you think
22:35
that's what would be one of the biggest financial savers
22:38
in the fertility space.
22:41
I mean, it's hard because then you're going to,
22:43
you know, I see where from an insurance point of view,
22:45
you have every woman in America
22:47
if they're going to get their eggs retrieved,
22:49
how well percentage of them are going to actually use them
22:51
and need them.
22:52
But so I get where it can be hard,
22:54
but I don't know, in my position, I needed it
22:56
and I would have loved it.
22:57
But not every, you know, a lot of my friends
22:59
and a lot of people through the book
23:00
have actually gotten egg retrievals just based on what I said.
23:04
And the book and, you know, it's a safety blanket.
23:07
That's what it is.
23:08
It's like any insurance, though.
23:10
It's not a necessity or you don't feel like you need it
23:13
until it's almost too late.
23:15
Do you know what I mean?
23:16
It's like a lot of insurance.
23:18
It's not until you have something stolen
23:20
and you're like, oh gosh, I should have got contents insurance.
23:22
Or if you don't have vehicle insurance,
23:24
it's not until something happens to your car
23:26
that you're like, gosh, I should have got insurance.
23:28
But a lot of people have questionable arguments back to
23:31
the idea of egg retrieval being an insurance policy
23:34
because everyone's like, well, it doesn't always work.
23:37
I'd be kind of keen to know from you, Brett,
23:39
like, what are your thoughts on doing it preventatively
23:42
versus, you know, is there an age where it's like cool at 30?
23:46
If you want to have kids sometime in the next 10 years,
23:49
it would be clever to do it.
23:51
Do you think it should be at 25?
23:53
I know you threw that age around earlier, but...
23:55
I mean, based on what I went through,
23:58
I mean, at 35, your eggs, I think it's 50-50,
24:03
where 50% of your eggs are not going to be able to be used
24:07
and 50% are.
24:08
And as you get, 35 is really the age
24:10
where your egg quality starts declining.
24:14
So that's really the token age.
24:16
Obviously, the younger you do it, the better.
24:19
The point being, when you retrieve eggs, maybe at 25...
24:23
Now, I'm drastically generalizing.
24:25
There are people that have egg issues.
24:27
You know, there's a lot of different issues.
24:29
But I'm going to say I'm going to generalize here
24:31
if age is your issue.
24:33
Your egg quality...
24:34
So you can retrieve 10 eggs.
24:36
That means technically five will be usable, five won't.
24:39
And when you get to 38, that goes even less and less.
24:42
So obviously, if you're going to go through the egg retrieval
24:45
and you're going to freeze them without them becoming an embryo,
24:48
it's hard to test them.
24:50
So you're really taking a crapshoot.
24:52
So the younger you do it, the chances of them being quality.
24:56
Now, there are other ways that they can tell.
24:58
You know, when I retrieved my eggs, I was getting three.
25:02
Five.
25:03
So my cousin, when she did it, and she was younger,
25:05
she pulled 30 eggs.
25:07
Whereas I was pulling five.
25:09
Yeah.
25:10
I wonder if you could give us the kind of insight.
25:12
So you've done five rounds and had two amazing children.
25:17
How much in total have you spent in your IVF journey?
25:20
I would say the 100 grand range.
25:23
That's like someone's entire salary.
25:25
That's like, it takes people sometimes 40 years
25:28
to save that much for me or never in their life.
25:31
It's a lot.
25:32
It's such a privilege to do ideas.
25:34
It's such a financial burden.
25:36
Nothing breaks my heart more than talk.
25:38
You know, I've talked just so many people through the book
25:40
and they'll reach out to me.
25:42
And they just feel I have to give up on this IVF
25:45
and it's heartbreaking for me because, you know,
25:48
I had the luxury of doing what I needed to for insurance
25:51
and then able to pay out a pocket.
25:53
But most people can't do that.
25:55
And that you're saying, oh, I can't have children
25:58
because of that.
25:59
It's heartbreaking.
26:00
Yeah.
26:01
And so was it, it was cost a burden for you
26:03
when you were considering the process
26:05
and starting to go through it?
26:06
Did you and your partner talk about,
26:08
okay, well, like, we can afford to do X
26:10
or, you know, like, how did that work
26:12
in terms of planning financially?
26:14
Did you think, okay, I'm going to have to stop after five
26:17
because that's all we can afford.
26:18
How did that work for you?
26:20
You know, we, again, we had the luxury
26:23
that money wasn't necessarily our biggest hurdle.
26:27
But it was hard because how long do you go?
26:30
You know, we were on our fourth round
26:32
and, you know, I'm saying we got to do this
26:34
till we find our egg and he's saying,
26:36
well, how long do we do this for?
26:38
You know, you're slowly, you know, using this savings
26:40
or using this account, you know, things
26:42
that you had allotted for other things.
26:44
I mean, you're not expecting to spend this kind of money.
26:47
So it's very draining on a relationship.
26:50
And people going through it, they're fighting
26:52
with their partner.
26:53
They're not on the same page.
26:54
One believes they could do it without IVF.
26:56
One believes they can.
26:58
There's a lot of things that stress a marriage.
27:00
Money has to be one of the top ones.
27:03
And so between you, how did you try and get on the same page?
27:06
Or do you have any advice for couples
27:08
who are thinking of going through this process?
27:11
I guess thinking more from a financial lens,
27:13
but also just in general,
27:15
how can they be as best prepared
27:18
to put their marriage or their relationship first?
27:21
I mean, the hard part about an IVF
27:23
is you don't know how many rounds, how many years,
27:25
you don't know how long you're going to be in it.
27:27
So some people have much money, I guess.
27:29
Exactly.
27:30
But communication, whether it's emotionally, financially,
27:34
logistically, you have to over communicate with your partner.
27:37
Because if you don't, all of a sudden,
27:39
you're going to start drifting apart
27:41
and you're not going to know how that happened.
27:43
You know, IVF is a very, very traumatic time.
27:47
And I can't even sugarcoat that.
27:48
But you end up going in your own little fetal position
27:51
and dealing with your own grief
27:53
and it's very, very easy to drift away
27:56
from your partner while they're going through their grief.
27:58
It's hard to deal with both.
28:00
And when you say grief, can I just ask,
28:02
because neither of us have gone through the IVF process
28:05
in terms of, in the same way that you have,
28:07
that's had her eggs retrieved.
28:09
But when you say grief is each round
28:11
you're dealing with the idea of loss of a child?
28:15
Like, sorry if that sounds super ignorant.
28:17
No, kind of grace.
28:18
I love the questions.
28:19
Is it more your hopes up?
28:20
It's both.
28:21
You get your hopes up and then you get disappointed.
28:23
Yeah.
28:24
That's exactly what it is.
28:25
You know, IVF is just an emotional role coaster.
28:28
You know, you get your hopes up.
28:29
Then there's roadblocks.
28:30
And it's not just the loss of, you know, a baby with a miscarriage.
28:34
There's that as well, which is very hard.
28:37
But there's also the loss of, you know, eggs
28:40
that you went through around and can't be used
28:42
or aren't genetically right or you have to stop
28:45
in the middle of an, you know, an egg retrieval
28:47
because of another issue.
28:49
You know, you have to get a surgery or surprise medication
28:52
or whatever it is.
28:53
There's a lot of surprises.
28:54
And that takes a toll on you.
28:55
On the same time, though, everyone around you
28:58
is just moving forward.
28:59
And they're having sex and getting pregnant.
29:02
And it's, so it's the grief of, you know, your story
29:05
not being what you envisioned.
29:07
And what other people can have so easily.
29:09
And then you've also got the emotions from hormones,
29:13
increased hormones.
29:14
And you're trying to deal with it as well.
29:15
Oh, yeah.
29:16
Yeah. So you're not even in your right, you know,
29:18
your normal hormonal state.
29:20
So it's like, let's be honest, what's that anyway?
29:22
Yeah.
29:23
But also, I think if you and your partner
29:25
are going through it together, yes, you are.
29:28
But it's just your body that's on the line.
29:30
Day after day, time after time.
29:32
And I think that would be really hard to communicate.
29:35
Because even it doesn't matter how empathetic
29:37
or loving or caring or support of that partner is.
29:39
If their body is not going through that hormonal change
29:42
and physical pain and, you know, intensity,
29:45
that would be really difficult.
29:47
Yeah, it's very difficult.
29:48
And I think from a financial point of view,
29:50
you just have to talk about it.
29:51
Because you don't want to get yourself in debt
29:54
because of IVF.
29:55
That's for sure.
29:56
And you do have to talk about, even though it's hard,
29:58
because even when you start IVF,
30:00
you still aren't denial.
30:02
This isn't me.
30:03
This is going to work.
30:04
This is going to be fine.
30:05
And so sometimes you don't think you're going to be,
30:07
like, for me, I had no idea.
30:09
I was like, oh, this isn't really me.
30:11
I'm going to do an IUI one round.
30:13
I'll be done.
30:14
I had no idea my journey was going to take me as long as I did.
30:17
So talk to your partner, plan,
30:19
talk to your insurance company is, you know,
30:21
even talk to people that could help you, you know,
30:24
parents or employers.
30:26
Because even time commitment is a big thing with employees.
30:29
You know, we think of financial.
30:31
You know, if you're going to have an IVF cost,
30:33
there's time that you're going to need off of work.
30:35
There's time that, you know, your employer has to be involved.
30:38
And you may not want to open up to them.
30:40
I think it's important if you can.
30:42
It's, you know, but it's hard.
30:44
That's what I was going to ask.
30:45
What was some of the, I guess, the other hidden costs
30:47
that you talked about, you know, taking time off work?
30:49
Were there any other hidden financial costs
30:52
that surprised you on the journey
30:54
or that you hadn't prepared for?
30:56
Some of the medications are out of pocket.
30:58
Some of the insurance companies don't cover all the medications.
31:00
And they're very expensive, like five or six hundred dollars a pop.
31:03
Yeah.
31:04
So that was definitely a surprise.
31:06
And you kind of don't have time at that point to think about it.
31:10
Yeah.
31:11
Like you'll be in something like you need this medication
31:13
and you have to take it tomorrow.
31:15
And you're running to some random pharmacy to get it.
31:18
And then there's seven hundred dollars.
31:20
And you're like, wait, what?
31:21
You know, and you have to kind of strike while they aren't hot.
31:24
Because it's all based on your ovulating.
31:26
And, you know, the timing is very important.
31:28
So that was hidden and a genetic testing.
31:30
I mean, for someone my age, I would say you have to get a genetically tested
31:34
because you're going to go through all of this, you know,
31:37
you're going to get the egg put back in you and the transfer.
31:39
And it could miscarry if it's not genetically right.
31:42
So that's all out of pocket.
31:44
And then the storage fees of your embryos was another one.
31:48
Once you have embryos, it's about twelve hundred dollars a year to store them.
31:53
Now, and I only had one that I was storing.
31:56
So I don't even know if you have twenty.
31:58
So that was another one that I'm like, wait a minute.
32:01
I guess, yeah, I didn't think it would be like free freezer space.
32:04
I've got to freeze the downstairs.
32:06
I can put them in.
32:07
Is that okay?
32:08
Just save myself some money.
32:09
Yeah.
32:10
So that's another one.
32:11
And I guess one thing that you mentioned before around the kind of the opportunity
32:14
cost of of that money being spent on IVF is, you know, those holidays
32:19
that you can no longer take or those other things that you can't afford.
32:23
They're renovations for the house because you have to spend that money on IVF.
32:26
You know, all those things are kind of, I guess, hidden costs that you don't,
32:30
you don't really, you know, factor in, but, but are really important.
32:33
But how much time would you say someone going through a cycle of IVF
32:36
would have to take off work?
32:38
Like, is it approximately five doctors appointments, three afternoons,
32:42
lie horizontal?
32:43
Like, I have got no idea the time commitment involved
32:47
and how you communicate that in advance with a employer.
32:51
I mean, the problem with IVF is that you don't, you can't plan it out.
32:54
It basically, once you start a cycle, it's about two weeks where you're preparing
32:58
for an egg retrieval.
32:59
And in that two week period, you're really going every three days for blood work.
33:04
And depending on what they find in that blood work is when they're going to say,
33:08
all right, now we're going to do your retrieval in three days.
33:12
We're going to do your retrieval tomorrow.
33:14
You know, there's a lot of surprises.
33:16
So my advice, and I don't know if everyone's comfortable with this,
33:19
but I think it's very important to find someone at work.
33:23
Hopefully it's your boss, but someone that knows what's going on,
33:27
explain to them what the process is like, you know,
33:31
because just say, oh, I'm having health issues, you know,
33:34
I own a company myself.
33:36
I think it's hard to believe someone that says, oh, I've health issues.
33:39
And for two weeks or a year, oh, sorry, I have to go for blood,
33:43
you know, or I have to be out, you know, let people know what the process is
33:47
because people don't realize what it is.
33:49
So I would say in a two week process, you're going every three days
33:52
to get blood work.
33:53
And then the transfer is really just one day,
33:56
and then the next day, you're back at work.
33:59
So transfer's not as big of a deal, but that's one day off.
34:03
But it's a lot.
34:04
And from a mental health perspective, if you've just had an embryo inserted
34:07
up into your cervix, does it go through your cervix?
34:10
I'm like, uterus, thanks.
34:12
I mean, just even the idea of sitting at work, typing away on an email
34:16
after having that done, I would need some serious time to process
34:20
and integrate what was happening.
34:22
That's just you're saying the actual you have to leave your desk
34:25
for these appointments.
34:26
That's not even considering the fact that you might need some time
34:29
alone to cry onto your pillow.
34:31
Well, I'm so glad you said that because so much,
34:34
there's so much mental health, emotional draining things
34:38
that happened during an IVF process.
34:40
And you will be crying at work.
34:42
You'll be crying in your car.
34:43
You'll be blowing your nose with your dry cleaning.
34:45
I mean, it's a lot.
34:46
And I'm like a stable, positive person.
34:49
And I was knocked on my back.
34:51
And it got to a point where I had to open up to people at work
34:54
because you can't just keep showing up crying.
34:56
Sometimes you just need a day.
34:57
And my advice is you need to take the day.
35:00
And you know, some employers are amazing like that.
35:03
And others aren't.
35:05
And that's tough.
35:06
And it just communicate, over communicate.
35:09
And don't take advantage either because, you know,
35:12
you have to use your time wisely.
35:14
It may take a while, you know.
35:16
And then you have children.
35:17
And then you've got to take more time.
35:19
Yeah.
35:20
There are bloody times stuck around there.
35:22
Even before they born.
35:23
Even like tiny little eggs and stems.
35:25
Brett, what advice would you have for couples or women,
35:29
particularly who are listening to this,
35:31
who are thinking,
35:32
shit, shit, fuck, fuck, fuck.
35:34
I don't know if I can afford this.
35:36
I'm not sure what the strain's going to be like on my relationship
35:39
on my own mental health.
35:41
What kind of thought process or journaling prompts
35:44
can people ruminate on before embarking on this journey?
35:49
Because I feel like there's a lot that, as you were saying,
35:52
is surprises, surprise cost in terms of process, everything.
35:57
Do you think that it would eliminate stress by being like,
36:00
okay, we're going to put aside $40,000 for this?
36:03
If we reach our peak, just like if you go to an auction for a house,
36:06
we're tapping out.
36:07
Or you're like, what kind of things can people think about
36:10
before hitting down this journey?
36:13
I mean, the problem is, you don't want to put too much pressure on yourself,
36:16
either.
36:17
To say, I'm going to try for $40,000.
36:19
And then if we don't do it, that's it.
36:21
And then we're going to go our merry way.
36:23
That's like, my anxiety got up already.
36:26
You know, it's a lot of pressure.
36:29
And I think that talking with your partner, but being honest,
36:33
don't say what you think they want to hear.
36:36
You have to say what you're really feeling.
36:38
You may say, it's worth every penny I have.
36:41
Say it.
36:42
Even if you don't use all your money on it, say it.
36:44
And if your husband says, I don't know, I think I'm more comfortable
36:47
with using, you know, this amount.
36:49
Say it.
36:50
Write it down.
36:51
I think preparing yourself is the most important thing.
36:54
And again, you have to talk to people around you.
36:57
Your insurance companies, your employer, you know, sometimes
37:00
there are ways to extend your insurance.
37:02
You do have to tactically figure it out.
37:04
The problem with IVF is no one thinks they're going to be in it for a long time.
37:07
Some people aren't.
37:08
A lot of people aren't.
37:09
They're just in and out.
37:10
So you're hoping for the best, planning for the worst.
37:13
But what does the worst really mean?
37:15
But that's what's hard because I think, and I imagine this is the process
37:18
that you went through from an emotional standpoint too,
37:21
because I worked with somebody who at the time was going through rounds
37:24
of IVF, and it's that I want to be hopeful and positive,
37:28
but also not too much, because I don't want to get my hopes up.
37:31
But then also the power of mindset, but also, you know,
37:34
it would just be so hard to try and get yourself and stay in a stable
37:39
emotional and mental state throughout that process.
37:42
Well, it's the financial burden, but also the emotional burden.
37:45
Yes, you might be okay, cool.
37:47
My limit's 40,000.
37:49
But emotionally, you might want to be able to do...
37:52
Seven.
37:53
Yeah, seven thousand.
37:54
You know what happened now?
37:55
I knew it.
37:56
Yeah.
37:57
It's a great point.
37:58
So many things to consider.
37:59
Also, financially putting money aside for probably therapy sessions.
38:02
Things like that, which, you know...
38:04
That's another hidden clause.
38:05
Yeah.
38:06
Actually, I'm glad you brought that up.
38:07
Because you would need it.
38:08
I got through halfway, and I'm like, I cannot do this alone,
38:11
and I basically arm me crawled to my therapy appointment.
38:14
I mean, I basically called her to voice on the other line
38:17
and started crying and saying, I need how fast can you take me?
38:20
It's hard.
38:21
I think what the financials chew is that it's important to analyze
38:25
the rest of your life as well.
38:26
So you're going to have your IVF costs.
38:28
Know what's covered?
38:29
You know, all the infertility clinics have financial people there
38:33
that can help you with the cost.
38:35
They have it all...
38:36
You know, there's no surprises in terms of what a round will cost.
38:40
That kind of thing.
38:41
But then also analyze your other decisions you're making in your life.
38:44
Maybe it's time to not take that vacation.
38:47
Maybe it's time to dial back on a few other things.
38:50
Maybe it's time to downsize.
38:51
You know, depending on, again, your priority level of what you want
38:55
and how much you're willing to put in.
38:57
But sometimes you have to analyze even if you're in the beginning of it.
39:00
And you're like, ah, I won't be us.
39:02
Dial things back, maybe, saying, let me save here where I can.
39:06
The little things do matter.
39:07
You know, a few hundred dollars here is in medication.
39:10
A few hundred dollars there is a therapy session.
39:12
And again, talk to your therapist.
39:14
I mean, your insurance company about what's covered.
39:16
Usually the therapy is covered.
39:18
My mind was appartially covered.
39:20
Thank goodness.
39:21
Thank goodness.
39:22
Because that is crucial, I would say.
39:24
I want to see the more that I have these conversations in terms of
39:28
thinking about motherhood, thinking about, I mean,
39:31
and I mean, not even including IVF in that.
39:33
We did a conversation with Sean Seh and Elaine,
39:36
who is also based in the States.
39:38
She's originally from Congo.
39:39
And she was talking about how, if you want to be a mum,
39:42
by the way, if you haven't listened to that episode,
39:44
definitely go back and listen.
39:45
But she spoke about the financial burden of being able to afford
39:50
your village to mean that motherhood can look the way you want it to.
39:54
If you want to be able to have time to go do things with your friends
39:57
or not have to clean the entire house or not have to exercise it,
40:00
you have to plan financially.
40:02
And then now we're having this conversation about IVF.
40:05
And I'm just like, I don't reckon I can afford kids.
40:08
You need to start a motherhood fund.
40:10
What do you think with that conversation then?
40:12
What do you think needs to be done financially
40:15
in terms of supporting people through the IVF journey?
40:19
Is it government support?
40:21
Is it companies stepping into support?
40:23
Is it insurance companies doing more to support?
40:25
Is it ourselves having to plan better?
40:28
Financially, what in your opinion do you think needs to be done more
40:32
to help people going through the IVF journey?
40:34
Financially, I think the insurance companies have to re-evaluate
40:38
their coverage for IVF.
40:39
It's a major issue.
40:41
It's unfair.
40:42
It's a legit health crisis for women trying to have a baby.
40:47
I think emotionally, I think family members and friends
40:50
whoever has someone close, don't pry for information
40:55
because that's really hard for a patient with bad news all the time, usually.
40:59
Just be there.
41:01
Just be there to support.
41:03
Be there to say, I'm here if you need me.
41:06
I know I can't understand fully what you're going through, but I'm here.
41:09
Don't give advice because you don't know what it's like unless you've been through it,
41:13
then give all the advice you want.
41:15
In terms of an employer, I think for employers out there,
41:18
it's very important to try your best to give the freedom to those couples,
41:24
whether it's the man or the woman going through it,
41:27
because that will make a break and experience for someone.
41:32
If you have an employer that's like, take what you need,
41:35
I understand what's going on,
41:37
and you do what you have to do, that's amazing.
41:40
But not everyone's like that.
41:42
They'll say, I'm sorry, you only have this amount of time.
41:44
You're running to get to the 6 a.m. blood bank
41:47
and then trying to run back to work and you're crying and you're bleeding.
41:51
It's horrible.
41:52
It's really hard.
41:53
For employers, please sympathize with these patients
41:57
and understand the process, whether it's IVF or anything.
42:00
Get to know what they're going through and trust your employees.
42:03
If you don't trust your employees, you shouldn't have your employee there.
42:06
Gosh, that was great advice.
42:08
I think they need to be leaves, specific leave for,
42:12
I don't know if I guess fertility leave or...
42:15
Almost like just women's leave before it.
42:17
But then the men are involved as well.
42:19
They're emotionally struggling.
42:20
Because I'm sure they'd be, and I'm not sure if this is something
42:23
that your husband went through, but I imagine that,
42:25
yeah, he would have sometimes been like, shit, I need a day.
42:28
It's almost like mental health days.
42:30
I mean, the problem with IVF with leaves is that there's no chunk of time.
42:34
We can barely get maternity leave, right?
42:37
So I'd rather have the weeks for maternity leave.
42:42
For mental health in general, there should be mental health days.
42:46
But with IVF, you can wake up on a Monday and be great.
42:49
You can by the afternoon be crying under your desk.
42:53
And there's not chunks.
42:55
You know, how long is leave?
42:57
Like, my process was two years.
42:59
I have other friends that are in their sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth year.
43:02
Oh, my gosh.
43:04
Oh, my gosh.
43:05
I can't even...
43:06
No, I can't.
43:07
Brett, thank you so much for sharing everything.
43:11
It's been super helpful.
43:12
And really, yeah, terrifying.
43:16
But, yeah, an important conversation is something that we need to have.
43:20
And I think, yeah, it's not just the emotional toll,
43:23
the physical toll, the relationship toll.
43:25
The financial is very real.
43:27
And so, yeah, thank you so much for sharing your story.
43:31
And for your amazing book and for anyone that does want to purchase it,
43:34
where can they find it?
43:35
So it's sold wherever books are sold,
43:38
but Amazon's an easy one.
43:40
It's called The Underwear in my shoe,
43:42
and hopefully will help you get through your process
43:45
and know you're not alone.
43:47
And we're also very happy that you have two wonderful kids.
43:50
Yes.
43:51
And...
43:52
It was all worth it.
43:53
It was all worth it.
43:54
Yeah.
43:55
Sometimes you're like, very badly behaved kids.
43:57
Yeah.
43:58
Can you genetically test for good behaved kids?
44:00
Well behaved kids would be great.
44:02
I want to send this one back, actually.
44:06
Thank you so much for listening to Raising the Curve.
44:08
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44:12
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44:15
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44:17
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44:20
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44:22
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44:24
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44:26
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44:29
Okay.
44:30
Lots of love, see you soon.
44:31
Bye.