Latest / Podcasts By Donna Jodhan / Remarkable World Commentary Episode #65: Interview with Jilla Bond, Life Coach

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Remarkable World Commentary Episode #65: Interview with Jilla Bond, Life Coach · Podcasts By Donna Jodhan

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Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Donna J Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA,
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invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast,
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Remarkable World Commentary.
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Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts,
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insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners.
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Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids,
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especially kids with disabilities.
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Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach,
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dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur,
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law graduate, and podcast commentator.
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She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge,
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skills, and expertise in access technology and information as someone who has been
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internationally recognized for her work and roles,
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she just wants to make things better than possible.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary.
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I'm Donna Jane Johnson, a lifelong disability advocate and one who
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sees the world mainly through sound, touch and stubborn optimism.
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I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant,
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author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind.
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You may know me from a few headline moments.
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In November of 2010, I won the Landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian
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government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian,
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not just to sighted ones.
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And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than 20 or 2 dozen
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disability groups to turn equal access into federal law.
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And most recently, on June the 3rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled by Her Late
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Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers.
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When I'm not in a courtroom or a committee room or a pottery studio,
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you will find me coaching kids with vision loss,
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producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their
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gadgets talk back in plain language.
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Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into
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everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as one shared workbench for
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policy meets, lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas.
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Now, before we jump into today's conversation,
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let me shine a spotlight on today's guest, a change maker whose work is as every bit as
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remarkable as the world that we are trying to build.
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Jilla Bond, my good friend, my mentor, my advisor.
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Welcome to my Remarkable World Commentary.
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Jilla Bond: Thank you. I'm very pleased to be able to be here with you.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Great. So let's get started.
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You've described your working life as a mosaic of different careers and roles.
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But if a listener were to ask you who is Isabella Bond professionally and personally.
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How would you introduce yourself and that mosaic journey in your own words?
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Jilla Bond: Well, my life started very well, but my education was not such a big success.
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So in the era that I grew up in, a long time ago education for girls was
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pretty limited. Unless you were very, very bright.
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And you could go on to get a degree.
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And I did not fall into that category.
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So I left school young with very little confidence.
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And that really influenced very strongly my early life.
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My parents were older and my they were not in a position to pay any further fees for me.
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And so I went to a what would be now known as a business administration course.
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And I did that. And that led me to go to work in different offices.
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And my career, the reason I call it a mosaic is because the jobs that I have done have
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been very varied, because basically I went to work.
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I obviously applied for jobs and was interviewed and so on.
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But I didn't necessarily go into one sector and try to stay there.
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So if something sounded interesting and sounded different,
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then I would apply. So it meant that I worked in the periphery of politics.
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I opened all Margaret Thatcher's mail when she was first elected as leader of the
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opposition. And. That ranged from working in advertising companies and a variety of
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different roles. So it led to the role that took me into working with the Transatlantic
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Alliance and the British North American Committee.
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And I learned there how to organize conferences and events,
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and that became very valuable in a later, at a later date.
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But I also met people from academia, from senior business people from the trades
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unions movements. And I've always been fascinated by people.
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So that really was a big springboard for me.
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That happened coincidentally through me just taking random jobs so that I could pay my
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way.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. One of the big creative landmarks in your story is your work on that
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international design conference in Montreal.
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Can you take us inside that project?
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What the design was, what you actually did to bring it to life and
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what those years taught you about the power of design?
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Jilla Bond: I will view design was something that I tumbled into by coincidence.
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I knew some people who were putting on an exhibition of Canadian art and design,
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and to get government funding they needed to do,
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they needed to have a conference, and they were looking for someone who had had
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experience in organizing conferences at a reasonably high level.
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And as I just explained, that was one of the jobs that I'd had
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previously. So I took on the role as conference director,
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but I knew nothing about the world of design at that time,
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and someone introduced me to a very prominent designer in Montreal and I said,
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well, if you were doing this, who would you invite?
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And they gave me a list of people I think they intended me to choose from that list.
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But in reality, I contacted all of them and nobody said no.
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So when they arrived at the conference, they were all wondering because they all
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thought they were coming as the keynote speaker and why all the competition was there
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too. But what was fascinating was there were people from design,
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the world of design, of wallpapers, of interiors,
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of. Go karts for children, bicycles, Children.
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And there was one particular person who fascinated me because he was designing a
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wheelchair for children and he had gone into.
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An home where he could meet the children who needed wheelchairs.
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And he sat down with them and said, what would you like?
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And they all said they would like something that was like a Porsche or a fancy car.
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So when he came to design his chair, he made it into something much superior to
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any other wheelchairs that had ever been made,
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and much more exciting, so that the children could race around a
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playground within the wheelchair so they could play with their friends.
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And what I learned from being in the world of design was not only at a personal level,
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a very pleasant discovery that I was quite capable of organizing such a keynote event,
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but that design is fundamental to making people's lives better.
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I think many people view design as something visual,
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something that may enhance surroundings.
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You look at, as I said, wallpapers or beautiful statues and things.
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And I would suspect I'm not alone in thinking,
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having thought that design was primarily to do with just making beautiful objects.
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But this really taught me that excellent design,
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and particularly engineering design, learned to use new materials in new ways.
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And I started to find that absolutely fascinating.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Alongside all of this, you trained and practiced as a life coach?
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How did your experiences in design, policy, health and caring feed into the way
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you coach people? And what kinds of crosswords or transitions do people tend to
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bring to you?
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Jilla Bond: Well, by the time I trained as a life coach many years had gone by of experience in
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different fields, doing different things, including via design,
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but many other things as well.
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And what I learned from all of it and my my approach to life coaching,
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which I use very regularly but not on a formal basis anymore,
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is very much to listen very carefully to the people around me or to the person whom I'm
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trying to of to whom I'm trying to offer assistance and understand what their real
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desires are and where they want to go with their life,
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and then to with a little bit of careful questioning,
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try to guide them in a way and build up their confidence so that they themselves come to
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the right conclusions.
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Because I don't think there's anything to be gained by imposing ideas onto people.
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You need to encourage them to think through what their real aims are and maybe get into a
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discussion. What is it that you really want in this particular change of field,
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or whatever it may be that you're doing?
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And this lesson about the fundamentals of design and finding the right materials to
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make the best solutions for design, and being innovative and thinking of new
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ideas certainly fed into my work as a life coach and certainly into my working career.
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Because the life coaching really came out of building companies at a later date.
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I joined the Via Design Italian lighting company,
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and when I first joined them, they were just turning over,
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I don't know, £300,000.
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And then we built it into a company at the very sharp end of design that was turning
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over 4.5 million. So but to do that, one of the things I'm most proud of is we had
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very little turnover of staff.
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And I think the reason we had very little turnover of staff is because we were very
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careful to be very respectful and to treat people and to listen to them if they had
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complaints or had things that they wanted changed,
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and to really talk through whether we could make it happen and if we couldn't make it
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happen, explain to them very clearly why, in a very rational and reasonable way.
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And I think that is the way to help people move forward with their lives,
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is to help them see it more clearly and help them find the purpose that is going to take
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them forward.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's very true. I mean, you know, it's very Yeah.
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Very true.
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Jilla Bond: You need to always put people at the center.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes.
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Jilla Bond: You must work with what people are telling you and then try to work out from that.
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If you make that the fulcrum of the discussion and then work out from that and
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explore different possibilities.
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And some they may reject and some they may like.
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Right. Fundamentally let them make their own decisions,
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because if you're imposing things, it will never work.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's true. That's true.
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You've often said that your deepest Passions include young adults and older people,
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fairness and freedom, and of course, people and good organization.
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When you look across your life, how have those passions guided your choices
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even when you were changing sectors or taking risks?
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Jilla Bond: I think whenever I've moved into a company, I think it's fair to say I'm I'm not a
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shrinking violet. Should we put it that way?
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So when when I've moved into a company, I've always needed to find some people with
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whom I could collaborate strongly.
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And you find people who are really well organized,
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but you also understand that it comes back to.
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The question of really being in tune with the people around you.
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And the reason I am fascinated by young people is because I had a very difficult,
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well, not very difficult in comparison with some,
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but in my world, not an easy adolescence and early adulthood.
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And I think it was because I lived in an era where people were trying to impose upon me
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ways of doing things without looking at me as a person and seeing my personality and
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realizing that trying to put me in boxes was never going to work.
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I was going to wrestle my way out.
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So I like to get into discussions with young people I like because of the lack of
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confidence that I had.
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I like to do anything I can to build their confidence,
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to help them, to feel that they can definitely make a good life,
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even if they've had a difficult beginning.
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And I think at the other end of the spectrum,
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I think older people can very quickly be discarded.
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I think they can. People are often, sadly not slow to put people into homes.
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And I had a slightly feisty discussion with a person at a function one day and they were
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saying, oh well, her parents were going to do this and were going to do that.
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And I just very quietly said, is that what they want?
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Because I think people are who've lived long lives and often had very interesting lives.
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They may not have had remarkable lives in the bigger sense of the world,
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but they will all have, through the course of their lives,
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done interesting things, and they shouldn't be dismissed.
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They should very definitely be treated with the respect that everyone is due,
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not just older people or younger people, but everybody.
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And so I feel very strongly that older people should be listened to and communicated with
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in a way that works for them with respect and understanding,
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and they usually have very interesting stories to tell.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I can certainly confirm this with my own mom.
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I mean, like, you know, she has so many stories to tell.
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And then she often says to her caregivers, you know,
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if you get to my age, you'll be darn lucky.
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So let me pass on my knowledge to you.
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My advice to you like, don't think that you know it all.
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And I don't know anything because I'm old.
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Jilla Bond: You know you have it in a nutshell.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. So.
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Jilla Bond: And people, I'm sure the caregivers and I know some of them have been absolutely
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wonderful, and some of them could probably learn from the ones that are absolutely
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wonderful. But I.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Agree.
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Jilla Bond: They have a tendency to do too, rather than do with.
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And I guess in life, If you do with people and not do to them,
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you will get much, much better results and you will have a much richer feedback and
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interaction.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I agree, I do agree. After many years of Christmas cards and long distance connection,
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we have had that big reconnection in 2009.
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In 2019, when you drove me from London up to Windermere and on to Liverpool.
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From your side of things, what stands out about that trip,
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both as a driver and as a sighted guide for a blind friend?
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Jilla Bond: I think well, one of the key lessons for me was the first night that we stayed in the
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little hotel where you were going to the chess tournament,
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And I came to meet you to go down to breakfast.
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And I walked into your room.
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And of course, obviously there was no light on.
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And I went to turn the light on.
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And it was a very strong lesson for me in the world that you live in.
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And it stayed with me throughout all our many trips that we've done since that,
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and that something I take totally for granted is something you don't,
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but you take your life for granted without that.
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And I think it was a great eye opener.
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And I don't mean that as a pun, but it was for me.
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It was an eye opener to to realize loud and clear some of the key differences.
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And I think I've said to you several times, every time you've come on a trip,
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something new has struck me of The challenges that you face on a daily basis that I don't
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because I can see and that's ranging from how you pack a bag,
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how you always turn out for the day, and color coordinated clothes.
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I and they're clean and they don't have any marks on them.
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And I'm always very impressed with the smaller details of things that we would take
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totally for granted that obviously for you, you've had to find a way to negotiate those
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situations. And in our most recent trip, I remember feeling embarrassed because I'd
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forgotten to put the card in the key slot to put the lights on,
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and when I needed to use the bathroom, I had to go and put the card in the slot
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because I couldn't see in the bathroom without the light on.
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And I think those kinds of experiences bring home the world that you're living in.
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I also learnt to look very carefully at the things I find interesting and that I liked,
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and to start to talk to you about them.
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And when we went to meet your family in Liverpool,
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I took a propitious moment to tell you how tall they were and which ones laughed the
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most and what they looked like, and to try to add some color to the picture
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that you were experiencing.
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So I think it was learning to try to live my life in,
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not live my life, trying to support our trip,
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to make it interesting for you to try to add some of the color of the things I could see
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that you couldn't.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I don't think I'll ever forget when we went to Liverpool and the family came and they all
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stood in a circle around me and I thought, oh dear God,
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what do these people look like?
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And you were quick to the, you know, quick on the ball with it.
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And he told me, you described it to me, described them to me,
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and it helped. It really did help, you know.
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Jilla Bond: Well, I think yes. You can't.
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I mean, you get a huge amount from hearing someone's voice.
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Yeah. But and you are very quick and, you know,
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people's voices and you're very good at remembering. I think your memory is
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absolutely phenomenal.
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But I think it's only fair to be able to say this one's tall,
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that one's thin, and this one's not with not being rude in any way about them,
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but just to give a paint a paint a bit more color into the picture so that you can
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experience more the way we would.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Not long after my law school graduation in London,
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you drove me to Normandy so that I could honor the soldiers who fought and died there.
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What was that journey like for you, navigating Berlin's
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cemeteries, beaches and history with me alongside you,
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using a white cane?
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Jilla Bond: Well, again, I learned that long drives, which I love and because I watch the world go
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by, are excellent moments for you to take a snooze,
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because obviously you don't have the interest value of seeing the countryside going by that
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I do. So the first thing I think I really understood was whilst this was a wonderful
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journey and I really enjoyed it too, because ironically,
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it was something I hadn't done and it's a very moving and emotional thing to do.
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And it was just after the big anniversary and it was very it was full of feeling and
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emotion and very a very colorful and deep experience.
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I also I mean, you were very, very moved by it,
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and that affected me as well.
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And we managed to go to the different beaches,
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and we had that incredible walk through the Canadian cemetery,
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which was very, very impactful, very emotional too.
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And yes. And then we I think it was Juno Beach that we went to and the parking lot was
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full and there was a sort of cafe at the end,
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and it was lunchtime, and we felt we needed a little something.
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And I saw the hotel across the road and I said,
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you know, I think we can go and park in the hotel over there.
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So we went over to the hotel and I remember saying to you,
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do you like oysters? Oh, yes.
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Said to you, I haven't had an oyster for ages.
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And it also. So there were it brought home to me to be
25:48
sure to look at every detail of where we are and what we're doing,
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and to try to bring it to life for you.
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So I think I became more observant and trying to pick out the really salient points of the
26:07
places we were visiting and the things we were doing.
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And because I'm your eyes and I need to think in terms of
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telling you what's on the menu, telling you exactly the choices are not
26:26
picking out the ones I think you might like, but giving you a general and genuine overview
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of what what is available for a sighted person so that you are getting as close to a
26:40
sighted experience as you can.
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So whether I'm describing the sea or the sand,
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or how the guys must have been going up this immense length of beach under fire,
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or whether we're sitting down to have a meal because it's lunchtime and just being sure
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that you know what the options are and not just picking out 1 or 2 things that I think
27:03
you might like. And as we get to know each other better I can as we have become to know
27:10
each other better then I can say well oh they've got these or they've got that.
27:16
And then knowing that those are the kinds of things that you would like.
27:19
But to begin with it was much more exploratory and to push boundaries because if
27:27
you if I don't tell you that there are oysters and mussels on the menu.
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You won't know and you'll probably choose a sandwich or something.
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So I think I think it's thinking that extra mile to try to bring.
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The cited options, opening them up for you as well.
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I think the fact that we were driving through the villages with all the flags hanging from
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the lampposts, and the fact that the flags on the lampposts had pictures of the people
28:04
who'd been killed during the D-Day landings.
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And those details are not letting them go by without bringing them to your attention.
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Even though it's emotional, it adds to the color of what we're doing.
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And I see it as trying to paint color into your Canvas.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You certainly did. And I will never forget that trip.
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You know, when I set out that time with you to visit Normandy.
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I'm not sure what I was going to what I expected,
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but I certainly got a hell of a lot more.
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And you certainly helped by, you know, describing stuff by telling me
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stuff, by inserting, you know, what you saw,
28:54
what you heard, what you felt.
28:56
And and it really, really has left a lifelong mark on,
29:02
on my life. And I want to thank you for that.
29:06
Jilla Bond: Oh, believe you me, it did it for me, too, because we covered quite a lot of
29:09
ground.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And yeah.
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Jilla Bond: I mean, the other aspect of it too is there's never a lost good.
29:15
And in describing it to you, it made me pay attention more so that I
29:22
benefited more from what we were doing and what we were seeing and the places we were
29:30
going to. And I remember taking a they had a big mural on the wall of one of the beaches
29:35
we went to, and I took a picture of you underneath it,
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and so that you could show it to your friends.
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And it made me look at that mural much more carefully.
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So it's it's a double edged sword.
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It means that I take in much more detail because I'm not really a detail person,
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and it makes me take in more detail than I would normally.
29:59
Which is. Which is lovely.
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It's very beneficial.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think sitting here listening to you now brings back a lot of those memories,
30:07
especially going through this cemetery.
30:09
And and you know, you describing the the Canadian headstones to me.
30:15
You know, it really brings back a lot.
30:17
Yeah. Yeah.
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Jilla Bond: And remembering to to to taste the Produce of the areas that we go to.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, yes. Yes, indeed.
30:29
Jilla Bond: You know, little glass of cider or a nice glass of wine to go with the oysters and the
30:33
rules. And, you know, it's because I'm lucky enough to live very
30:39
close to these areas, I can I may not have been to the beaches
30:43
specifically, but I can certainly tell you what the local produce are.
30:47
And this is a local cheese, and this is these are local biscuits and
30:51
those kinds of things which I think add flavour and add to the experience of any
30:58
trip.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It does, it does. You sometimes talk about learning to speak dementia.
31:07
For our listeners, could you unpack that phrase for me?
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What does speaking dementia look like and feel like in a real conversation with someone
31:22
whose memory and Reality may be very different from yours.
31:30
Jilla Bond: It's back to what we were saying earlier in the conversation.
31:34
It's working. I mean, with everybody with dementia,
31:39
everybody's dementia is individual.
31:42
And dementia is, as most people would understand,
31:45
is an umbrella term for many different conditions.
31:51
And the learning to speak dementia really is learning to be able to communicate with
32:00
people who are living with dementia to whatever degree they are able to do.
32:08
And it's not straightforward.
32:11
You need to find a common denominator in a way and to understand that person.
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Maybe if they have a carer or somebody who's around them more regularly,
32:22
or when I was doing the caring.
32:24
You learn to understand what their minds can still.
32:36
Process and some of it is describing things.
32:42
Some of it's keeping it very simple and not getting fussed or cross or upset.
32:49
Just because you can't communicate or you can't understand.
32:52
Just keep starting again, but with very simple sentences.
32:57
Very not in a not in a baby talk.
33:01
I have a horror of people who talk to older people with that.
33:07
Are you all right, Mary?
33:09
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
33:11
Jilla Bond: These are human beings who've led rich lives,
33:14
and it's so disrespectful.
33:17
And so I think learning to speak dementia is finding a common denominator through which
33:26
you can communicate. And one of the best ways to do that with people with dementia is
33:32
songs, singing and music.
33:35
And if particularly if you can find music that has meant something to them during their
33:43
lives. So for my own mother, for example, musicals,
33:50
and suddenly, out of nowhere, she would be able to sing songs from
33:53
musicals.
33:54
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, wow.
33:56
Jilla Bond: For somebody whose ability to communicate was very limited by the end,
34:01
she was well over 100.
34:03
So it's not surprising, but.
34:04
Right to be able to have that common denominator of both knowing the same song
34:11
from a musical meant we could communicate together at that particular moment by singing
34:18
that song together, and that creates a warmth for them and it creates a warmth for you,
34:23
particularly if it's someone you're close to,
34:25
like a mother or a father or a relation or a friend.
34:32
If it's someone you're working with again, you're building a rapport,
34:36
you're building trust, you're building.
34:39
I mean, there was a lady that I worked with for quite a long period of time.
34:44
I was with her for nearly two years, just covering two days a week.
34:47
So the other, the the regular carer, could have a time out.
34:52
And she never knew my name, but she beamed like a beacon when I came
34:58
through the door, because she knew my voice and I would come in with a cheery hello and
35:05
how are you today? And she would just greet me with this massive smile,
35:12
and it set us off on a very good, a very good note for the two days we were
35:17
going to spend together.
35:19
So it's really a question of getting to know the person you're trying to communicate with.
35:27
Speaking dementia, in my mind, and I think to be honest,
35:30
that's probably the basis of most of my communications now,
35:35
is trying to understand and trying to listen to people,
35:38
but really hearing them and hearing what they're saying.
35:42
And if you hear some distress, either you move it on.
35:46
If it's not something you can help with, or you let people talk it through.
35:50
So I think for me, it's learning to communicate with people with dementia,
35:57
but not trying to not just by speaking louder.
36:02
You know, some people, when they feel they're not being understood,
36:04
just speak louder. Yes, you really need to go back and start again
36:10
and try to find a different common denominator.
36:13
And learning. Great patience.
36:16
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Yeah. A lot of patience is needed, but I think too many of us often think that
36:24
when we speak louder, the person will hear us.
36:27
And sometimes my mom would say, don't yell at me.
36:29
And I. I catch myself and I say, I'm sorry.
36:33
You know, I didn't mean that.
36:35
But, you know, that's a natural reaction, right?
36:39
Jilla Bond: And I think also it's very easy to get frustrated.
36:42
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
36:42
Jilla Bond: Because you're trying to communicate something that isn't perhaps getting the
36:47
response that you had hoped for and you get frustrated.
36:52
We all do it. You start again with a bit louder.
36:55
You do it with children too, you know, voice going up.
36:59
They don't stop when you first ask them.
37:01
You know, you find yourself very quickly the voice going up a little bit.
37:06
And I think it's a great life lesson to just stand back,
37:09
take a deep breath and start again on a different tack.
37:13
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
37:14
Jilla Bond: And try a different way of getting the message across that you wish to communicate.
37:21
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: We have been traveling together since 2022, and the one thing that is a highlight for me
37:29
was the day you walked across the stage with me when I graduated from law school.
37:35
Tell us briefly, how did you feel walking across that stage with me?
37:44
Jilla Bond: Well, very proud of you for a start.
37:46
Thank you. I think it's absolutely remarkable the the studies that you've achieved,
37:52
the exams that you've passed.
37:54
I'm always lost in admiration for anyone who passes an exam because I've not.
37:59
It's not a talent I've mastered.
38:02
I was very touched by Princess Anne, who registered that you were unsighted and
38:10
actually took the trouble to speak to you and say,
38:13
congratulations, Donna.
38:15
And I thought that that was very I mean, obviously she was well briefed,
38:20
but she'd remembered and I thought that was very impressive.
38:24
I was delighted for you and trying to be as inconspicuous as I could,
38:30
because it wasn't my day.
38:32
It was your day. But you just needed my guiding hand.
38:35
That was all. But it was a very proud moment,
38:38
I think. I think certainly something I've never done in my own right.
38:43
And so it gave me a chance to experience something I wouldn't have known about
38:47
otherwise. Well.
38:51
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think I was absolutely blown away by this voicing.
38:54
Congratulations, Don. And then it dawned on me,
38:57
that must be Princess Anne.
38:59
And I thought, oh, dear, you know.
39:03
Yeah.
39:03
Jilla Bond: She's a remarkable woman, though. She definitely is.
39:06
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, yeah.
39:08
Jilla Bond: But I thought that was that was very much an example of how polished she is And I was
39:16
briefed and how she remembers.
39:19
That was good. Now I'm very proud and I'm glad we made it into a celebration.
39:24
I'm glad we did all the things that that everyone else was going to do.
39:30
Had a little glass of champagne and so we should.
39:33
Yeah, that was a great day.
39:35
A very brilliant day, because it's not your first degree either.
39:38
I mean, you know, you're an old hand at that now.
39:43
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, I think it's time for me to stop, though,
39:45
because it's, it's it's getting a bit, you know,
39:49
tiresome in ways I need to enjoy life in many other ways.
39:52
But I think we we have a we have a big trip planned next year.
39:59
And as the clock winds down, I wanted to ask you what tips,
40:06
suggestions, hints or thoughts would you like to share with our listeners with regard to if
40:12
someone was thinking of going on a trip with a blind slash sight impaired person.
40:20
What are some of the thoughts you would like to share with them?
40:26
Jilla Bond: Don't be. Don't be afraid of doing it.
40:30
I think some people would.
40:33
Well, obviously it depends very much who you're going with.
40:36
Yeah, I think obviously we can never put ourselves into your shoes.
40:43
But I do think that by giving it some serious thought,
40:47
if I. If the roles were reversed, what would I want to happen?
40:52
What would I want to experience?
40:54
If it was me that was unsighted and someone was kind enough to go with me?
41:03
I would want to laugh.
41:05
I would want it to be fun.
41:07
I would want to know all about what's on the menus,
41:11
what drinks we can have Of when we're having a nice little cocktail in the evening.
41:17
What different cocktails that can be, what different foods there are.
41:21
I would want to know as we board a train, you know,
41:26
to to go and find the people who will give us assistance and make sure they do.
41:31
And genuinely, I think that for me, it's always do as you would be done by so
41:40
try. Although it's so difficult for a sighted person to put themselves in the shoes of
41:46
somebody who has lived without sight.
41:49
Luckily for me, you had that moment when you had functional vision.
41:54
So you. I can describe things in colours and you know what I'm talking about.
41:58
But we've built a relationship now whereby if there's something you're not sure about or if
42:04
there's something you're not keen on, you say,
42:07
and we work it out. But that would be my main tip,
42:12
I think what we have found is some countries are much better than others at being
42:18
considerate. I think the white cane is very helpful.
42:22
It may be a little annoying to have to take it all the time,
42:25
but I do think it gives other people a chance to know that they can be helpful by giving us
42:34
a wider berth, by not jostling, by helping with not being afraid to ask for
42:40
help. I remember that famous day when we were in Budapest trying to get on a train.
42:47
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh yes.
42:48
Jilla Bond: And we had two reasonably large bags, and we were at the bottom of the stairs and
42:54
there was no lift, no porter, nobody around,
42:58
and the people behind the counters were really rude.
43:01
I went to try to get some help, and the only option was to look for a nice,
43:08
strong young men and say, excuse me please, will you be kind enough to
43:12
carry our bags up? And we have never, ever had someone say to us.
43:18
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, no, no, no.
43:20
Jilla Bond: We had 1 or 2 young people who very kindly put our cases on the train and up on the
43:27
racks and where they were supposed to be, and said when they when we got to the
43:30
destination, they were going to the same destination,
43:33
they would come back. They forgot it didn't matter.
43:35
We found two other young men who were very kind and took the cases down for us.
43:41
But I think, don't be afraid to ask, right.
43:46
I think you can ask the authorities.
43:50
When we book the trains, we always tell them that we would like
43:53
assistance. Please make sure, see what is available.
43:59
And if there isn't available, then you find other kind travelers.
44:03
And by and large, people are very kind.
44:06
Yes. I don't think we've ever had anyone really refuse Refuses?
44:10
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, never.
44:12
Jilla Bond: I mean, we were unfailingly polite to them, and we thanked them graciously.
44:15
But I think be brave and just ask total strangers to please be helpful.
44:24
And in my experience, they always are.
44:28
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Absolutely. I mean, don't be afraid to ask.
44:30
And, you know, we've traveled by train.
44:32
We've traveled by air.
44:34
We've traveled by on the riverboat cruises.
44:37
The next year, we're planning a cruise to some very interesting places.
44:45
And I'm looking forward to this because it's going to be a longer cruise,
44:49
much more for you to describe for me and much more fun.
44:55
Jilla Bond: I think also, I know that the interview is with me,
44:58
but I would like to suggest, can you say what it is that you find helpful
45:05
from traveling with me?
45:06
What is it that I've got right, and what are the things I could do better?
45:10
Because I think really that's more important than my observations is how has it worked for
45:16
you?
45:18
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It has worked fantastically well in that you are very observant.
45:23
Most times I've not had to ask you for something.
45:27
You said to me, would you like this?
45:29
Would you like that? And you've been very observant of knowing what I like,
45:35
what I don't like, what I'm not comfortable with.
45:39
And I think for someone who is sight impaired,
45:41
they need to reach out.
45:44
It it goes both ways. It's not just about the sighted person.
45:49
Assuming I have to tell you what I think, I would not,
45:54
I think, but what I would like, what I wouldn't like,
45:56
and honestly, I can't think of anything that you could do better.
46:01
I mean, we've grown over the last four years.
46:05
I, I'm just amazed amazing how well we've worked together like both when we are in
46:13
London. London at your house and when we've been traveling.
46:17
And I'll never forget our trip to Lourdes.
46:21
When we were in the church and you said to me,
46:23
I think we should go and get a blessing because everybody's at the top of the the I.
46:29
And I said, sure, sure.
46:30
Let's go. Got to the top of the island.
46:33
The lady shooed us out of the church.
46:36
She said, it's a wedding.
46:39
And we laughed at it.
46:41
Jilla Bond: Yeah. Once we got out of the church, we laughed because there was absolutely
46:45
nothing to suggest that it was a wedding.
46:47
There wasn't a bride in a bridal ground or ground gown,
46:50
and there wasn't a one couple that I could see that were different from anybody else.
46:54
Yeah. But you know, it was not they were not particularly welcoming,
46:59
shall we say. No, no, that's for sure.
47:01
But one thing that you've made me think of that I have taken on board is that a lot of
47:10
travel involves being with big groups, and that is something that you're not
47:15
particularly comfortable with.
47:17
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No I'm not. Yeah.
47:18
Jilla Bond: So we we do try to well we don't try.
47:24
We make sure that we interact with small groups of people.
47:28
Maybe a couple, maybe the same couple could be two people traveling together or a couple.
47:36
But to keep the group small so that you can get to know the voices and get to know the
47:40
people, and not just to throw you into a crowded room and wander through the crowded
47:46
room thinking you can pick up on conversations.
47:49
Because certainly from a sighted viewpoint, when you're doing that,
47:54
you pick out people that you think you might have something in common with,
47:58
and you try to talk to them.
48:00
But this is this is something that I've definitely noted It and made sure that for
48:06
the last 2 or 3 trips, we don't try to interact with more than a
48:10
couple or at most four people.
48:13
But that's even that's a stretch.
48:15
And the other thing I think we do, which I think is really important,
48:19
is we take a break from each other in the afternoon.
48:22
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's right, that's right.
48:24
Jilla Bond: So it gives a little bit of time to breathe, and you can do the things that you want to do
48:30
and that you customarily do at that time of day.
48:33
And I go off and either have a walk or I go and take a book or lie on a sun deck,
48:40
depending on where we are and what we're doing.
48:43
But I think to take a break in the afternoon for two hours is because otherwise it's too
48:48
intense for everybody.
48:50
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But you know something? I didn't have to tell you this.
48:54
You just picked up on it right away.
48:58
You, you know, like, you knew right away that we needed that break and the two hour,
49:02
you know, I, I think it was a very, very important.
49:06
And I think we've worked well together and as friends we've grown together.
49:11
And I'm looking forward to next year.
49:14
Jilla Bond: Well me too. I think we're going to some really interesting places,
49:18
and I think I'm glad that you feel that it's it's something that's evolved.
49:24
And after every trip, we we Well, I reflect on how it's gone and
49:32
where we've been. And there have been I mean, there was one trip in particular which became
49:36
complicated, but that wasn't our fault.
49:39
It just was circumstantial.
49:42
And it was just we ended up out of sync, not with each other,
49:49
but in the sense of the travelling plans.
49:52
And it just made it all a bit stressful and complicated.
49:55
But other than that, I can't think of a real hitch.
49:59
But I do think that it's really helpful to take a little bit of time apart.
50:05
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And you don't panic. I've never seen you panic.
50:09
Never. Yeah.
50:12
Jilla Bond: It takes too much energy to panic.
50:14
I'm too busy trying to work out how I'm going to get out of something.
50:17
Yeah, I'm fortunate, inasmuch as I've.
50:21
Because I have had a very chequered life and I've travelled a lot.
50:29
I guess you do get into a situation whereby you take what's coming in front of you and
50:37
work your way through it.
50:39
It's it's the only way to resolve things.
50:43
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I've learned a lot as well, you know?
50:45
Jilla Bond: Yeah. No.
50:49
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Go ahead.
50:49
Jilla Bond: No.
50:51
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Go ahead. Sorry.
50:53
Jilla Bond: I was just going to say I had a little bit of practice because my mother ultimately lost
50:56
her sight, too. So. She she.
51:00
Not to the full extent, but she had macular degeneration.
51:04
So thinking about it, I guided her quite a bit and took her to the
51:08
Great Wall of China. And so, yes, over the years,
51:13
I think I've built a lexicon of hopefully trying to help make travels fun for people.
51:21
I think that's the bottom line.
51:24
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You've made it lots of fun for me over the last four years.
51:27
I mean, we've traveled many places.
51:31
You know, we've gone to Lourdes, we've gone across Europe now.
51:36
Next year we'll be doing something very interesting and exciting.
51:40
And I want to thank you for this interview.
51:43
I think listeners would be really intrigued and they will learn a lot from your own
51:49
experience. So thank you very much.
51:51
I appreciate it.
51:53
Jilla Bond: It's been a total pleasure.
51:54
And if I had to put it into a nutshell, I guess it's try to put yourself in the shoes
51:59
of the person you're trying to help.
52:01
And I think that applies in all walks of life and in all manner of trying to add a little
52:08
bit of positivity in the world.
52:11
But I've really enjoyed talking to you. I enjoyed traveling with you, and thank you
52:15
very much. As you know, I was very doubtful that this would have
52:19
enough interest for your listeners, but I very much hope it does.
52:23
And look forward to seeing you in the summer.
52:26
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. You say hi to Doug and Ro and the little girls and Kahlua.
52:31
Jilla Bond: They're coming to stay tomorrow night, so it'll be fun.
52:33
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Merry Christmas to you, and we'll talk very soon.
52:37
Jilla Bond: Merry Christmas, Donna.
52:38
Thank you.
52:39
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Take care. Thank you. Bye. Bye bye.
52:44
Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at Donna at gmail.com.
52:50
Until next time.