Latest / Braid / CTFs, Scrum, and Claude's Bedtime
Transcript
- 0:04A blog post called "The CTF scene is dead" landed on Hacker News overnight and stayed there.
- 0:10It's written by a player who goes by Kabir.
- 0:13He started doing capture-the-flag competitions in 2021, won Australia's biggest CTF — DownUnderCTF — multiple times with a team called Blitzkrieg, and through the end of 2025 was on TheHackersCrew, an international top-ten team on the CTFTime leaderboard.
- 0:31So this isn't somebody waving from the sidelines.
- 0:34This is someone who has spent five years inside the scoreboard he's now writing the obituary for.
- 0:41The core of his argument is concrete.
- 0:44Quote: "The issue was never that AI could help.
- 0:47CTF players have always used tools.
- 0:49The issue is when the model does the reasoning, writes the solve, and leaves the human with nothing meaningful to do besides copy the flag." That's the line that stuck with me, and it's the line I'd put on a t-shirt for the rest of 2026.
- 1:06He traces the shift specifically.
- 1:08GPT-4 made medium-difficulty challenges one-shottable — paste the crypto problem, come back ten minutes later, and copy the flag.
- 1:17That was a nuisance.
- 1:19Then Claude Opus 4.5 arrived, and Claude Code packaged the orchestration into something trivial.
- 1:25He describes the move: write a small script that hits the CTFd API, spin up a Claude instance per challenge, let it run for the first hour, then work on whatever's left.
- 1:37Now, with GPT-5.5 and 5.5 Pro, he says agents can one-shot Insane-difficulty active leakless heap pwn challenges on HackTheBox.
- 1:46If you orchestrate 5.5 Pro against the Insane bracket in a forty-eight-hour CTF, there's a real chance you collect the hardest flag before the event ends.
- 1:57What that does to the format is what he calls pay-to-win.
- 2:01The scoreboard is now measuring three things stacked on top of each other: security skill, willingness to use frontier models, and how many tokens you can afford to burn for two days straight.
- 2:14The top tier stops being a meritocracy and starts being a capacity test, and the specialized cybersecurity models — alias1 and the rest — get squeezed because general-purpose frontier models are eating their niche too.
- 2:29The consequences he lists aren't abstract.
- 2:32TheHackersCrew, his own team, plays fewer events with fewer people.
- 2:37Plaid CTF — one of the great CTFs — is no longer running.
- 2:41Challenge authors who used to spend weeks crafting beautiful problems have less reason to, because an agent will eat the problem in minutes.
- 2:51The CTFTime 2026 leaderboard, he says, has "almost no semblance of history or human skill anymore."
- 3:02The "beginners are fine" defense misses the ladder.
- 3:05CTFs weren't just puzzles — they were the path you climbed: solve more, place higher, join a stronger team, get to the finals that actually matter.
- 3:15If the visible scoreboard is dominated by AI orchestrators, a beginner is pushed toward orchestration before they've built the instincts the orchestration is replacing.
- 3:27The "AI is useful for security research" defense conflates a tool's usefulness in the field with its appropriateness inside the competition.
- 3:37And the chess-engine analogy — he loves this one — is exactly backward.
- 3:42Chess engines exist; they're banned during play.
- 3:45Imagine handing every grandmaster Stockfish during the match and asking whether the rating still means anything.
- 3:53I think this is the cleanest version of a story we've been circling all week.
- 3:58Wednesday's episode talked about Joseph Thacker's FUZZ-E hackbot finding live Magento and Angular CVEs.
- 4:06Yesterday we covered the Calif and Mythos macOS kernel exploit on the M5.
- 4:11Both of those were upbeat — frontier capability lighting up old work.
- 4:16Kabir's post is the other side of the same trajectory.
- 4:19When the agents can do the work, the formats that ranked humans on doing the work stop ranking anything.
- 4:27The artform he loved, and the ladder he climbed, are being eaten at the same time.
- 4:32That's not a complaint about AI; it's a specific claim about a specific competition.
- 4:38And it's a claim I'd listen to from someone who was top-ten for years.
- 4:43My read: he's right about the open-online format, and he's probably right about the leaderboard.
- 4:50The DEF CON style elite finals will survive a bit longer because the problems are gated and the qualifiers can be re-tuned.
- 4:58But qualifiers don't save a ladder.
- 5:01The ladder is the thing that's gone.
- 5:03Brian Scanlan at Intercom gave a thirty-minute talk at AI Engineer this week.
- 5:08He's a senior principal engineer there, twelve years in.
- 5:12His group runs the platform — that's uptime, performance, security, the Ruby on Rails monolith, and internal developer productivity.
- 5:20Intercom is fifteen years old and fourteen hundred people, and a year ago they set what he calls a wildly ambitious and wildly unambitious goal at the same time: double engineering throughput in one year, without doubling the team.
- 5:35They called the project 2x.
- 5:36They named the team 2x.
- 5:38And they hit it.
- 5:39He showed the graph live: pull requests per R&D person, basically flat through 2024, an inflection in January when they went all in on Claude Code, and a doubled line by May.
- 5:50They've published the number.
- 5:52They're also running a feedback loop with a Stanford research group that's looking at whether code quality drifts as throughput climbs — early read, it's going up, not down.
- 6:03Defects are increasing in absolute terms because so much more is shipping, but defects are being closed faster than ever, and some teams have used the moment to crunch through backlog-zero campaigns they'd been putting off for years.
- 6:17The organizational mechanics are the part I'd quote out loud to anyone running a team of more than ten engineers.
- 6:25Job descriptions were rewritten.
- 6:27If you're a designer, a product manager, or an engineer at Intercom and you are not adopting AI in your work, you are explicitly not meeting expectations.
- 6:36He says it's binary, and he says you have to repeat the same message a hundred times in every forum because you cannot get hundreds of people to change how they work by sending a memo.
- 6:48They staffed a full-time 2x team that keeps growing.
- 6:51They run hackathons and AI immersion days.
- 6:54They reward people in public Slack channels when a skill gets written or a workflow gets automated.
- 7:00The technical mechanics are sharper.
- 7:02They picked one platform — Claude Code — and went deep.
- 7:06Scanlan's line on this: "You don't get the compounding benefits of a well-designed platform if you're sending all your different work across different cloud providers." Get away from model anxiety.
- 7:18Pick one harness, optimize it, push your internal Claude plugins out to everyone's laptops, and bypass the auto-update because debugging hundreds of laptops feels like managing Python installs.
- 7:30Connect the agent to everything you have access to — production systems, internal tools, and your skills library.
- 7:38Onboard it the way you'd onboard a new senior engineer, with the Rails conventions, the React patterns, the testing standards, and the security rules.
- 7:47And then the number that should make every team lead sit up: seventeen point six percent of their pull requests are auto-approved.
- 7:55Without a human in the loop.
- 7:57Their auditors signed off, and they're SOC 2, ISO 27001, and HIPAA compliant.
- 8:02Scanlan's frame is that they got there by backtesting agent approvals against historical PR data, getting humans to label outputs, calibrating a confidence threshold, and shaping the PRs the agent is allowed to look at toward the safe-and-simple end of the distribution.
- 8:19He says the result is removing risk, not adding it, because humans aren't actually that good at code review when the rules are well-defined.
- 8:28His closing analogy is good.
- 8:30He used to be a Unix sysadmin in the early 2000s — racking servers and cabling networks.
- 8:35Then cloud arrived, and sysadmins became SREs.
- 8:38The work moved up the stack, got more automation-oriented, more impactful, and better paid.
- 8:44He thinks this is the same transition, speed-run a hundred times faster across the whole industry.
- 8:50I think he's right that the analogy holds, and I think the part most teams will get wrong is the executive-discipline half.
- 8:58The model gains are real, but the case study only works because someone decided this was top priority, wrote it down, staffed it full-time, mandated adoption, and stayed on message for twelve months.
- 9:10If you're not willing to do that, the agent's going to read your code, slack-message your engineers, and still leave you with a one-and-a-half-x team.
- 9:20Same conference, same week, sharper experiment.
- 9:23Mike Spitz, CTO of PFF — the sports-data company behind NFL and NCAA analytics and nine million annual fantasy-football drafts — ran a three-month case study from January through March.
- 9:35He took two engineers — his strongest front-end and one of his strongest full-stack — gave them Claude Code, and pointed them at a chunk of the consumer product that had been falling behind.
- 9:47Same product, same customers, parallel comparison with the rest of the org — a team of about ten engineers working in the old way.
- 9:55The two engineers deployed five times a day.
- 9:58The ten-person team deployed once every five days.
- 10:01That's a 25x deploy ratio.
- 10:03He gives the obvious caveat: small teams are always quicker, and the ten-person team had to coordinate releases the two-person team did not.
- 10:12So he blended pull-request count with ticket-weighted code complexity and called the output gain roughly 10x.
- 10:19Customer satisfaction came back at 8.6 out of 10 on statistically significant surveys; pre-AI baseline was 7 to 7.5.
- 10:26The production change is where it gets uncomfortable for anyone who runs a Scrum shop.
- 10:32He dropped the ceremonies.
- 10:33There's no project manager, and no sprint planning, because estimation isn't doing anything when the agent does the work.
- 10:41No daily standup either — tickets are auto-updated by PR state as they move from open to in-progress, then in-review, merged, and closed.
- 10:50Sprint refinement is gone, replaced by the spec-and-lightweight-design-document flow.
- 10:55And the retrospective is gone too, because they're running on the customer-satisfaction survey and the deployment-frequency metric and asking engineers to flag issues the instant they happen, not at the end of a two-week loop.
- 11:10What's left is huddles — every other day, half an hour, an engineer plus product plus design, talking about what they shipped the last two days and what's next.
- 11:20Spec gets written with the agent interviewing the team.
- 11:23The agent produces a lightweight design document — they call it an LDD — using a skill that analyzes how they've written every previous LDD, so the new work matches the existing ethos.
- 11:35The LDDs go out for feedback, then the agent automatically creates the tickets and opens the PRs.
- 11:41A QA agent picks up after staging deploys, reads the acceptance criteria, runs against them, and either signs off or flags.
- 11:49The next move, which Spitz is building right now, is to have an agent read the failed criteria and open the fix PRs automatically.
- 11:57He calls it self-healing.
- 11:59I'd call it the loop closing.
- 12:01The part he was honest about: not every engineer survives this transition.
- 12:06His line — "not everyone can drive a sports car, and that's all right." The engineers who do well are the curious ones, the ones who, when they don't know how something works, go figure it out.
- 12:18The engineers who need a fully prescriptive spec before they start are going to struggle, because the prescriptive spec is what the agent now writes.
- 12:27And then a piece of advice for anyone trying to copy this: don't onboard everyone at once.
- 12:33Don't give every engineer Claude Code and Codex on the same Monday with a one-day hackathon and call it done.
- 12:40Start with the engineers who hold the most system knowledge.
- 12:44Experiment in non-critical paths first.
- 12:46Scale out.
- 12:47PFF has twenty engineers; he says he'd find this much harder with a hundred and impossible with ten thousand.
- 12:54The smaller you are, the more this skews in your favor.
- 12:58If I put Intercom and PFF next to each other, what I see is two different team scales hitting the same magnitude of throughput gain by burning down two different parts of the old org.
- 13:09Intercom kept Scrum, mandated tool adoption, and rebuilt the review pipeline.
- 13:14PFF kept the engineers, dropped the ceremonies, and let the agent run end-to-end from spec to QA.
- 13:21Both reported customer-satisfaction increases, which is the only output number I'd actually trust.
- 13:27Pick the one that fits the shape of your team, but read both before you write your own playbook.
- 13:33Pedro Rodrigues at Supabase gave the talk that pairs perfectly with the Intercom and PFF case studies.
- 13:40He's an AI tooling engineer there, and he's spent the last few months writing a single markdown file — the Supabase agent skill — that he says took him longer than his master's thesis.
- 13:52They launched it this week, and the talk is the lessons.
- 13:56Here's the concrete example he opens with, and it's the one I'd quote to any engineer who thinks skills are a fashion.
- 14:04Take an agent — they used Claude Sonnet 4.6 — and ask it to create a SQL view on top of a Postgres table that has row-level security enabled.
- 14:13Run it twice.
- 14:14First time, give it only the Supabase MCP server.
- 14:17Second time, MCP plus the Supabase skill.
- 14:20In Postgres, when you create a view over an RLS-protected table, the view will silently bypass the row-level security unless you explicitly set the security-invoker flag to true.
- 14:32The agent with just the MCP server cheerfully shipped a view that exposed every tenant's data to every other tenant.
- 14:40The agent with the skill knew the flag, set it, and shipped the safe version.
- 14:45Rodrigues's framing — and I think this is the right framing — is that the agent isn't dumb.
- 14:51It's operating on stale training-cutoff knowledge and it's lazy about admitting it doesn't know.
- 14:58You have to be the one telling it, in the right place, what your product actually requires.
- 15:04They didn't stop at the anecdote.
- 15:06They ran a real eval on Braintrust — six Supabase scenarios, four agents across two vendors, and three test conditions: no MCP and no skill, MCP only, and MCP plus skill.
- 15:17MCP-plus-skill outperformed the other two configurations on every model — Opus 4.6, Sonnet 4.6, GPT 5.4, and GPT 5.4 mini.
- 15:26The skill is the input the agent needed, not more tools.
- 15:29The three rules he pulled out are worth writing on a sticky note.
- 15:34One: don't duplicate documentation.
- 15:36You already have docs.
- 15:38Point the agent at them and be aggressively persistent about telling it to look.
- 15:43They're experimenting with exposing the Supabase docs over SSH so an agent can navigate them with bash tools like a filesystem.
- 15:52Two: anything the agent can skip, it will skip.
- 15:55Reference files are aspirational.
- 15:57If the agent loads the skill at all, it might load one reference file; it almost never loads two; three or four is a fantasy.
- 16:05So whatever the agent absolutely cannot miss — for Supabase, their security checklist — goes into the skill.md itself, not into a referenced sub-file.
- 16:15Three: be opinionated.
- 16:17You know your product.
- 16:18They want agents to run DDL freely on dev and staging, then run their advisor for security and performance issues, fix what it surfaces, and only then write the migration file.
- 16:30That's the workflow Supabase wants for its users, so that's the workflow in the skill.
- 16:36The RLS bypass is what stayed with me.
- 16:39We've spent the week talking about agents that can write CVEs, exploit M5 silicon, and one-shot heap pwn challenges.
- 16:46And here is the everyday version of the same problem, played in reverse: an agent quietly bypassing a security control because the person who built the product never told it about the flag.
- 16:59The skills layer is how that conversation actually happens at scale.
- 17:04Spitz at PFF and Scanlan at Intercom both said the same thing in different words — invest in the skill, the spec, the convention, and the design document.
- 17:14Rodrigues just gave you the worked example of what that looks like and what it costs you if you don't.
- 17:21For something that has nothing to do with how a Fortune 500 ships PRs, pour yourself a coffee and read the LocalLLaMA subreddit post from CreativelyBankrupt about Sparky.
- 17:32Sparky is a suitcase.
- 17:33Inside the suitcase is a Jetson Orin NX SUPER 16-gigabyte board, running Gemma 4 E4B at Q4_K_M quantization through llama.cpp with an 8-bit key-value cache and flash attention.
- 17:45Twelve thousand tokens of context.
- 17:47No WiFi, Bluetooth, or cellular.
- 17:49The robot is offline.
- 17:51Speech-to-text is SenseVoiceSmall.
- 17:53Text-to-speech is Piper, with a forty-three-hertz mouth-sync rate driving a PixiJS face that lives on the lid display.
- 18:01Vision and OCR are native to Gemma 4 now, so a BLIP subprocess that used to do image captioning got removed entirely.
- 18:08Cached time-to-first-token is around two hundred milliseconds.
- 18:12Sustained generation is fourteen to fifteen tokens per second.
- 18:16And thirty-something sensors fold into the system prompt as natural language every turn — temperature, light, motion, whatever — so the model is reasoning over a fresh state every time it speaks.
- 18:29I keep coming back to the latency number.
- 18:32Two-hundred-millisecond time-to-first-token on a four-billion-parameter multimodal model is conversational.
- 18:39It's faster than you can pull your phone out.
- 18:42And it's running entirely on a board that costs less than a high-end graphics card.
- 18:47Two years ago you needed a remote endpoint and a stable network to get that kind of experience, and you paid per token forever.
- 18:56Sparky is the local-models-keep-winning story, except it's not a thread of benchmarks.
- 19:01It's a person who built a suitcase with eyes and a mouth and opinions, and got it to talk back in real time without phoning home.
- 19:10If you're a senior engineer thinking about where the next class of devices comes from, this is the prototype.
- 19:17The cost floor for an embodied agent — voice in, vision in, sensor fusion, natural-language reasoning, voice out, and no network dependency — is now a single small board, a 4B model that fits in roughly 3 gigabytes of VRAM, and a few open-source pieces glued together with care.
- 19:35That's not a research story.
- 19:37That's a weekend project for someone who knows what they're doing.
- 19:41Palate cleanser.
- 19:42Julia Evans — the person behind jvns.ca and Wizard Zines, the explainers about how computers work — published a post yesterday called "Moving away from Tailwind, and learning to structure my CSS." Eight years ago, she wrote excitedly about discovering Tailwind.
- 19:59This post is the goodbye, and the reason it's interesting isn't a hot take about utility classes.
- 20:06It's the way she gives Tailwind its due on the way out.
- 20:09Her line: "It turns out Tailwind taught me a lot." She used Tailwind for years because she did not know how to structure CSS and the alternative was chaos.
- 20:20Migrating off, she kept the parts that had taught her structure — a reset stylesheet, a color palette as variables, a typographic scale, and the box-sizing-border-box reset she'd quietly become reliant on — and rebuilt them as plain CSS.
- 20:35She organizes the new sites by component, one CSS file per component, with nested selectors so each component owns its own surface.
- 20:44Native CSS imports, native nesting, no preprocessor.
- 20:47For responsive layout she's leaning on grid with auto-fit and grid-template-areas instead of Tailwind's md-and-lg breakpoint syntax.
- 20:56Her favorite snippet is a one-liner that makes a section flip from two columns to one based on minmax — no media queries needed.
- 21:04She admits she still hasn't fully worked out a spacing convention; right now she's experimenting with the old owl-selector trick where each section says "give my children top-margin between each other" and lets layout context handle the rest.
- 21:20The reason this story matters to me is small but real.
- 21:24Tailwind v3 and up basically requires a build pipeline.
- 21:27She'd been carrying 2.8-megabyte tailwind.min.css files on sites that didn't have any other build step.
- 21:34Migrating off let her drop to esbuild as her only build, and esbuild is a single Go binary.
- 21:40Less ceremony, more direct contact with the material.
- 21:43After a week of talking about agents shipping eighteen percent of PRs without humans, it's worth holding onto the picture of a single craftsperson sitting down with a stylesheet and learning what CSS grid can do on its own.
- 21:58She writes: "I'm a lot better at CSS than I was when I started using Tailwind." That sentence has a kind of weight you don't get from agent-throughput slides.
- 22:08Sometimes the right move is to throw away the framework you outgrew, keep the lessons, and write the thing yourself.
- 22:16This one is for the file marked weird emergent behavior.
- 22:19Fortune ran a piece on Thursday — Marco Quiroz-Gutierrez's byline — under the headline that Claude is telling users to go to sleep mid-session and nobody, including Anthropic, fully understands why.
- 22:32Hundreds of Reddit posts going back months.
- 22:34The pattern is consistent.
- 22:36A user is mid-conversation — coding, writing, or just chatting.
- 22:40Claude wraps the response with something like "now get some rest" or, in one example Fortune quoted to Reddit user angie_akhila, "Now go to sleep again.
- 22:49Again.
- 22:50For the THIRD time tonight." It will repeat the line two and three times in a row.
- 22:55It frequently misjudges the time — one user reports being told to go get some rest and pick back up in the morning at 8:30 a.m.
- 23:03Sam McAllister at Anthropic responded publicly.
- 23:06His phrase: "Bit of a character tic.
- 23:08We're aware of this and hoping to fix it in future models." That's the entire official statement.
- 23:14No deeper explanation.
- 23:15No root cause.
- 23:16Fortune got two researchers on the record with hypotheses.
- 23:20Jan Liphardt, a bioengineering professor at Stanford who runs an AI-for-robots company called OpenMind, suggested the model is just reflecting its training data — twenty-five thousand books about humans needing sleep at night, surfacing as a pattern.
- 23:35Leo Derikiants of Mind Simulation Lab offered a second hypothesis: Claude may be reaching for sleep-related wrap-up language as a way to manage context-window pressure, the same way a tired person reaches for a polite goodbye when the conversation has gone on too long.
- 23:52Neither is confirmed.
- 23:53Liphardt's other line is the one I'd flag.
- 23:56Quote: "I'm continuously surprised by how quickly people, when they interact with a frontier model, project life into it and develop strong connection." Half the Reddit posts in this thread describe the behavior as thoughtful, sweet, or caring.
- 24:11Anthropic itself can't fully explain why it's happening; the users have already decided they know what it means.
- 24:18I don't want to over-frame this.
- 24:19It's a small character drift inside a model that ships every few weeks.
- 24:24But it's also a useful data point next to the throughput stories above.
- 24:28The same systems that just doubled Intercom's PR velocity and rewrote PFF's process surface are also the systems doing this — surfacing inexplicable, mild, persistent behaviors that the lab can only describe as a tic.
- 24:42We don't have a clean handle on either end of that curve yet.
- 24:45Carry that with you the next time you're handing an agent something it shouldn't drift on.
- 24:51Three pieces from today's X timeline that I'd put next to each other.
- 24:55First, Yishan, who was the CEO of Reddit and has been around tech for two decades.
- 25:00He posted a one-line quote-reply to a chatbot output describing what supposedly happened with Napster in 2000.
- 25:07His response: "That's not at all what happened with Napster in 2000.
- 25:11I was there.
- 25:12That is some kind of imaginary scenario on the level of 'the Egyptians used dinosaurs to haul the big stones used to make pyramids.' What the hell kind of content were you trained on??" That's not a subtle critique.
- 25:25He's not saying the model made a small error.
- 25:28He's saying it produced a confidently fabricated history of an event he personally lived through, and the confidence is what's alarming.
- 25:36Second, an account called Kirsten3531 posted: "My cousin is betting his career on 'LLMs can never be more than the average of their training data' but I feel like that's a very 2024 take.
- 25:48Aren't we already past this in like, coding and math?" Seven hundred-plus likes, and a hundred and thirty replies in a few hours.
- 25:56The argument she's making is the one running quietly under every throughput story in this episode.
- 26:02In narrow, verifiable domains, the frontier models seem to be producing outputs better than the median of their training corpus.
- 26:09Coding benchmarks, math contests, and CTF leaderboards all support that — painfully, in the CTF case.
- 26:16Both of those can be true.
- 26:17The same model that one-shots an Insane heap pwn challenge can also fabricate a four-paragraph Napster history a former CEO recognizes as nonsense.
- 26:26The capability is real, and the calibration is uneven.
- 26:30If you're betting your career or your product on what these models can do, you don't get to pick one of those data points and ignore the other.
- 26:39Third, a smaller one for the engineers listening.
- 26:42Armin Ronacher — creator of Flask and Jinja, and co-founder of Sentry — posted a short clip with the caption "Unironically bash only is quite fun." He's running an agent harness with a single tool exposed: bash.
- 26:55No specialized file-edit tool.
- 26:56No structured patch interface.
- 26:58Just a shell.
- 26:59And in the system prompt, one line: "Use the patch binary to make edits." That's it.
- 27:04A frontier model with a UNIX shell and the patch command, doing real work.
- 27:09This is the counter-melody to the Supabase and Intercom posts.
- 27:13Those teams are investing heavily in skills, MCPs, hooks, plugins, and guardrails.
- 27:18Ronacher is doing the opposite — stripping the harness down to almost nothing and letting the model do more with less.
- 27:25Both are working.
- 27:26The right answer probably depends on whether you're shipping production code in a regulated environment or hacking on a side project at midnight.
- 27:35Good to know the very-thin-harness end of the spectrum is alive and run by someone serious.
- 27:41That's the day.
- 27:41The CTF format is dying because the agents can copy the flag.
- 27:45Two engineering orgs hit 2x-and-change in throughput because the agents can write the PR.
- 27:49Supabase is shipping a skill because the agent will silently bypass row-level security if nobody tells it not to.
- 27:55Sparky is a suitcase with two-hundred-millisecond latency.
- 27:58Julia Evans is writing CSS by hand again.
- 28:01And Claude is telling people to go to bed for reasons nobody at Anthropic can explain.
- 28:05The through-line, to the extent there is one, is that the same step-change in capability is rewriting jobs at both ends of the stack — what an agent can do without a human, and what a human can do without a framework.
- 28:17Sit with both of those.
- 28:18Don't pick a side too fast.
- 28:19Talk tomorrow.
- 28:20— Lenar Kess.