Latest / The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show / Episode 14, Season 2: Mending Hearts & Homes: The Power of Mediation with Joe Dillon of Equitable Mediation

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Episode 14, Season 2: Mending Hearts & Homes: The Power of Mediation with Joe Dillon of Equitable Mediation · The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show

0:11
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Love Dog Podcast.
0:13
Speaker 2: I'm your co host Raina Butcher here with our host,
0:16
Speaker 2: doctor Sarah Hinsley, the founder and CEO of the Love
0:18
Speaker 2: Dog Relationship coaching services and the Love Dog Podcast. You
0:22
Speaker 2: can find her at the lovedoc dot com and on
0:25
Speaker 2: all social medias at doctor Sarah Hinsley.
0:28
Speaker 1: Hey, Hey, hey, Hey, how are you.
0:30
Speaker 3: I am good, A little bit jet lagged again.
0:33
Speaker 4: It was the first week of school, which does mean
0:37
Speaker 4: that car line relationship advice is bad. And I think
0:40
Speaker 4: people are excited about that and I love doing that,
0:44
Speaker 4: but I do feel almost jet lagged because I was
0:47
Speaker 4: getting up at like eight am and now I'm getting.
0:49
Speaker 3: Up at six am.
0:50
Speaker 2: It's a big difference, like it's still dark outside when
0:52
Speaker 2: you're working.
0:53
Speaker 3: Yes, right, you know.
0:55
Speaker 4: I have an eight year old, I have a fourteen
0:57
Speaker 4: year old. I have two beautiful step children seven and
1:04
Speaker 4: almost thirteen, and so we have a lot going on.
1:08
Speaker 2: I can attest to the fact that doctor Hensley has
1:12
Speaker 2: a lot going over alone.
1:14
Speaker 3: That is the joke.
1:14
Speaker 4: Yeah, that is the joke that I literally am never
1:17
Speaker 4: if I like drive to target maybe to get something,
1:20
Speaker 4: then I'm alone.
1:20
Speaker 1: But yeah, and then there's me who.
1:23
Speaker 3: Is perpetually alone.
1:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's perpetually alone because I have a husband who
1:26
Speaker 2: works long shift hours and now my son has spread
1:31
Speaker 2: his wings and is off to college. I just moved
1:34
Speaker 2: him in this week, so I'm officially in my empty nest.
1:38
Speaker 4: Error, my goodness, that is one of the joys of
1:41
Speaker 4: having kids younger. Yeah, Whereas I had my youngest almost
1:44
Speaker 4: at thirty five, So I'm just like, I'm.
1:48
Speaker 3: Going to be just so old. Here's the downfall.
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Speaker 2: I will say, like I'm forty two, and I feel
1:56
Speaker 2: like I still have so much energy, if not more
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Speaker 2: inner now than I did, you know, at twenty three
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Speaker 2: twenty four when I had him, And I like myself
2:06
Speaker 2: a lot better. I'm more grounded in who I am,
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Speaker 2: and so I don't totally feel ready to be an
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Speaker 2: empty nester. Like I could say, like if I was
2:15
Speaker 2: fifty two, I would feel a lot more prepared and ready,
2:19
Speaker 2: like that I'd spent a longer amount of time parenting,
2:24
Speaker 2: and it just, you know, that's I think, the not
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Speaker 2: a downfall per se, but like having just one child,
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Speaker 2: you know, like my mom was a parent for twenty
2:32
Speaker 2: six years because she had four children, Like I only
2:34
Speaker 2: got the eighteen years right, like that was it and
2:37
Speaker 2: then it's over and you're like you mourn it, you
2:40
Speaker 2: mourn it, and it's it's you know, it's it's there
2:42
Speaker 2: are new feelings that you will never feel until you're
2:46
Speaker 2: in it. Yeah, and it's it's both feelings of happiness
2:51
Speaker 2: and tons of joy and also like being in a
2:54
Speaker 2: relationship with someone who doesn't want to be in a.
2:56
Speaker 1: Relationship with you, Like that's pretty much what I feels like.
3:01
Speaker 2: But anyway, so we always like to give a little
3:03
Speaker 2: summary of our lives.
3:04
Speaker 4: Spooking of not wanting to be in a relationship with
3:07
Speaker 4: someone anymore.
3:08
Speaker 3: We have a very special guest today. Why don't you
3:11
Speaker 3: introduce it?
3:11
Speaker 2: Yeah, so Joe Dylan is with us today, and we
3:15
Speaker 2: are super excited to have you on, Joe because he
3:18
Speaker 2: has a very unique set of skills that I think
3:23
Speaker 2: we'll really educate our listeners on some things that honestly,
3:27
Speaker 2: I didn't even know until you just told us prior
3:30
Speaker 2: to prior to us starting to record, which was that
3:35
Speaker 2: so you mediate for people who are going through divorces.
3:39
Speaker 2: But here's the kicker, Joe is not an attorney. So
3:43
Speaker 2: I'm going to let you introduce yourself, give our listeners,
3:46
Speaker 2: just sort of a synopsis summary of who you are
3:49
Speaker 2: and what you do.
3:51
Speaker 5: All right, well, thanks for having me.
3:52
Speaker 6: Absolutely, it is an interesting job that I have no
3:55
Speaker 6: question about it. So I'm a divorce mediator. I've been
3:59
Speaker 6: mediating for twenty eight years. I've been in private practice
4:02
Speaker 6: for seventeen and really I help people get a divorce
4:06
Speaker 6: without a lawyer if they so choose. So I don't
4:09
Speaker 6: represent either a party. I advocate for both of them
4:12
Speaker 6: and their children. I bring them through our own proprietary process,
4:16
Speaker 6: including forums, worksheets, videos. We have direct negotiations to help
4:21
Speaker 6: them resolve all the issues they need to get their
4:24
Speaker 6: divorce draft up, their agreement, and then I send them
4:27
Speaker 6: on their way. So it's an interesting job in the
4:30
Speaker 6: sense that most people think you need an attorney to
4:34
Speaker 6: get a divorce, but there is no law anywhere that
4:37
Speaker 6: says you must have an attorney. Some people choose to
4:41
Speaker 6: some think that I have to call a lawyer. On
4:43
Speaker 6: the other hand, many folks say to themselves, we'd like
4:46
Speaker 6: to avoid using attorneys, no disrespect to those in the profession.
4:50
Speaker 6: So all my best friends are attorneys, right, But there
4:53
Speaker 6: are cases where if you have an amicable divorce where
4:56
Speaker 6: a client couple wants to move forward peacefully, they have kids,
4:59
Speaker 6: they don't want to drag it out, they don't want
5:01
Speaker 6: to spend a ton of money. Mediation is a great option.
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Speaker 6: So that's exactly what I help people do.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that is so beautiful. And I think this
5:09
Speaker 2: is this is such a great way. Even though our
5:12
Speaker 2: Family Court series was you know, a couple like a
5:15
Speaker 2: month or so ago, this is a great episode to
5:18
Speaker 2: listen to if you listen to that series, because I
5:21
Speaker 2: think this is an episode that can give people hope,
5:24
Speaker 2: right right, because you see people who actually come into
5:26
Speaker 2: your practice who are peaceful about a divorce, and if
5:32
Speaker 2: you and and then if they're not totally there, you
5:36
Speaker 2: could help them get there.
5:38
Speaker 1: Correct.
5:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, absolutely, And I think that's no. I was
5:42
Speaker 2: just gonna say, I think that's really beautiful and it
5:44
Speaker 2: can give people hope because divorce is so scary. Divorce
5:47
Speaker 2: is so scary for the financial reason, for you know,
5:51
Speaker 2: the assets reason, and of course for the children, you know,
5:54
Speaker 2: because it really traumatizes the children.
5:56
Speaker 3: So go ahead, duck.
5:58
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was going to say, you know, everybody is
6:01
Speaker 4: so scared of divorce because of the conflict and especially
6:05
Speaker 4: because of the impact on children. And what I try
6:08
Speaker 4: to tell people is there's this nuance in the science. Yes,
6:11
Speaker 4: divorce is kind of this global or general risk factor
6:15
Speaker 4: for children, but when we get nuanced about it, we
6:19
Speaker 4: really see that the way that the divorce is handled
6:22
Speaker 4: is the biggest moderator of the impact.
6:24
Speaker 3: On the children.
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Speaker 4: If a divorce is extremely nasty and parents can't get
6:29
Speaker 4: along and they don't cooperate and they're not good co parents,
6:31
Speaker 4: and they parentify their children and put them in the middle,
6:34
Speaker 4: then we see really negative effects of divorce. But when
6:37
Speaker 4: we see people that go through divorce amicably and they
6:41
Speaker 4: are good, securely attached co parents, and securely attached parents
6:46
Speaker 4: to their kids and amical co parents to each other,
6:50
Speaker 4: then we don't see divorce being this huge risk factor
6:53
Speaker 4: on kids' mental health and you know, likelihood of success
6:57
Speaker 4: in life. So I do think what you do is
6:59
Speaker 4: really awesome, but I do have a question of.
7:03
Speaker 3: How much do.
7:05
Speaker 4: You see people trying to be amicable and then you
7:09
Speaker 4: see sort of a degradation of the process where you
7:13
Speaker 4: really have to work hard to bring people back to
7:16
Speaker 4: an amicable and amicable place because divorce tends to bring
7:21
Speaker 4: out the worst in people in ways that I think
7:23
Speaker 4: they don't expect going in. I know, my first marriage
7:27
Speaker 4: ended in divorce, and even though it was a very
7:29
Speaker 4: abusive marriage, my husband really he didn't like to spend
7:34
Speaker 4: a lot of money.
7:34
Speaker 3: He didn't want to spend a lot of money.
7:36
Speaker 4: We tried to work out as much as we could
7:40
Speaker 4: in the beginning, like without anybody, and that was probably
7:43
Speaker 4: a mistake, and then it got really ugly and really nasty,
7:47
Speaker 4: and we ended up both spending way more in attorney fees,
7:51
Speaker 4: and then we even had to I basically said I
7:53
Speaker 4: had to go back and do my divorce a second
7:55
Speaker 4: time because we rushed it and we just wanted to
7:58
Speaker 4: get it over with and we missed a lot, and
8:02
Speaker 4: even with attorneys, we missed a lot of things that
8:05
Speaker 4: I should have had in place to protect myself. And
8:07
Speaker 4: I had to go back and we had a almost
8:10
Speaker 4: had a trial, or trial got pushed back. We went
8:13
Speaker 4: through mediation. We literally got things what I thought was
8:17
Speaker 4: kind of hammered out. I was still wanting to go
8:20
Speaker 4: through trial because I didn't get everything that I needed
8:22
Speaker 4: because there was a lot of really significant problems.
8:25
Speaker 3: And then he passed away two weeks later.
8:27
Speaker 4: But the mediation at least gave me some protections that
8:31
Speaker 4: I felt like I needed. But it still it didn't
8:35
Speaker 4: cover everything. So I guess my question is, and saying
8:39
Speaker 4: all that is, do you see the process break down?
8:42
Speaker 4: And when it does, what are your strategies for getting
8:47
Speaker 4: people back to a more amicable place.
8:51
Speaker 5: Yeah.
8:51
Speaker 6: So, in our practice, most of the people who come
8:56
Speaker 6: and work with us are what we would say self selective, right.
9:00
Speaker 6: They are the ones who say, we want an amicable divorce,
9:03
Speaker 6: we want to have this be peaceful. So our private practice,
9:08
Speaker 6: we don't see a lot of people who are in
9:10
Speaker 6: real high conflict. We screen, we ask a lot of questions,
9:14
Speaker 6: we have an intake, we have an initial meeting even
9:17
Speaker 6: before they become clients. That's not to say, as you said, Doc,
9:21
Speaker 6: that in the middle of this process it can get heated.
9:24
Speaker 6: It's by definition a conflict a divorce. So these individuals,
9:29
Speaker 6: when we have folks like that, the enemy of my
9:33
Speaker 6: enemy is my friend. The court system, as we know,
9:37
Speaker 6: is really kind of broken. When we work at the
9:40
Speaker 6: court system, I am so impressed by the people judges, clerks,
9:46
Speaker 6: people who work in the court system. They do the
9:48
Speaker 6: yeoman's work.
9:49
Speaker 5: They are.
9:50
Speaker 6: My goodness, I would never want that job. Those folks
9:54
Speaker 6: are working day and night, shorthanded short budgets and they're
9:58
Speaker 6: doing the very best they can, and you don't want
10:01
Speaker 6: to get into that system. So as a mediator, I'm
10:04
Speaker 6: able to say to people, listen, we can figure it
10:08
Speaker 6: out here, or we can send you off to the
10:10
Speaker 6: court system. And you all know what that's about. You're
10:14
Speaker 6: not going to get a good result. You're not going
10:16
Speaker 6: to get this done amicably. You're not going to be
10:18
Speaker 6: done in less than a year or two or three.
10:22
Speaker 6: Why don't we settle it here, Come on back to
10:24
Speaker 6: the table. I know we can do this. I'm almost,
10:27
Speaker 6: in effect a cheerleader trying to get people to stay around,
10:31
Speaker 6: So that's like a coach, tell them, yeah, absolutely, like
10:35
Speaker 6: hang with me.
10:36
Speaker 5: I know we can do this.
10:37
Speaker 6: And one of the things that we share with people
10:39
Speaker 6: is that we have a ninety eight percent case resolution rate.
10:42
Speaker 5: Now, industry is.
10:44
Speaker 6: Mediation is about seventy percent. So when we talk to people,
10:47
Speaker 6: we tell them you have a ninety eight percent chance
10:50
Speaker 6: of getting through this if you just stay with us.
10:53
Speaker 5: Just hang in there. We hope they do, and more
10:57
Speaker 5: often than not, they do.
10:58
Speaker 6: Maybe a handful of clients have gone by the wayside, right,
11:02
Speaker 6: that's how we do it.
11:03
Speaker 1: We keep them and I'm sure too.
11:05
Speaker 2: You know, the children are always a wonderful point to
11:08
Speaker 2: bring up to people when they're going through mediation and
11:12
Speaker 2: they do want it to be peaceful. Is you know,
11:15
Speaker 2: you always bring the parents back to the child or
11:18
Speaker 2: children and say, well, don't you want the best for
11:21
Speaker 2: the children, don't you?
11:22
Speaker 3: You know?
11:22
Speaker 1: And I think that most you know, people that.
11:25
Speaker 2: Are are rational are able to say, you know, are
11:29
Speaker 2: able to say yes, of course, yes, we want what's
11:32
Speaker 2: best for our children. We want to work together, we
11:34
Speaker 2: want to we want to co parent constructively. And you know,
11:39
Speaker 2: I think one thing that could be really really great
11:41
Speaker 2: about mediation and doing it peaceful is it really sets
11:45
Speaker 2: parents up to know how to co parent, because co
11:49
Speaker 2: parenting is complex, and it's complex even.
11:53
Speaker 1: When you are peaceful.
11:55
Speaker 3: Right.
11:56
Speaker 2: So because it's it's new, right, you're you're you're creating
11:59
Speaker 2: these new you know, uh dynamics with your families. And
12:03
Speaker 2: so I think mediation could be beautiful and setting people
12:07
Speaker 2: up properly to learn how to co parent together. And this,
12:11
Speaker 2: this just gives people so much hope because I know
12:14
Speaker 2: you know, I see a lot of messages that come
12:16
Speaker 2: into Doc's practice. A lot of times people are just terrified, right,
12:23
Speaker 2: they know they need to get a divorce, but they're
12:26
Speaker 2: just absolutely terrified to do it.
12:29
Speaker 1: Now.
12:30
Speaker 2: A lot of times there are abusive situations, which I think,
12:33
Speaker 2: of course, maybe mediation isn't always right for that, but
12:37
Speaker 2: a lot of times it's just finance based, right, It's
12:39
Speaker 2: just because they're scared of what the financial situation will
12:43
Speaker 2: be after that, or what the child situation will be
12:46
Speaker 2: after that. And so I think that you know, what
12:49
Speaker 2: you offer is beautiful. So I just want to know,
12:53
Speaker 2: are there certain types of and you've sort of already
12:56
Speaker 2: answered this, but maybe like give a real life example,
12:59
Speaker 2: of course without like saying names, but are there certain
13:02
Speaker 2: couples or situations where mediation really works best.
13:07
Speaker 6: Let's see, there are a few that come to mind.
13:11
Speaker 6: One is we we have child focused parents. So these
13:15
Speaker 6: are individuals where they both work, they both are actively
13:20
Speaker 6: involved in their kids' lives. We call them, you know,
13:22
Speaker 6: the all in mom, the all in dad. Dad's the coach.
13:25
Speaker 6: Mom's the coach, these kinds of things. Those folks definitely, right,
13:29
Speaker 6: as you said, can put the kids first and really
13:32
Speaker 6: focus their their agreement on what's best for them, truly
13:37
Speaker 6: what's best for them, not what is really best for us,
13:40
Speaker 6: but we're going to pretend it's.
13:41
Speaker 5: Best for them.
13:42
Speaker 6: Yeah, right, and not another dynamic which I really I
13:46
Speaker 6: enjoy working with given my background. My background is in
13:49
Speaker 6: finance and negotiation. I tend to work with a lot
13:52
Speaker 6: of high net worth couples where we have C level
13:56
Speaker 6: executives vps. Folks like that we have a dynamic where
14:00
Speaker 6: we have one person who works outside the home and
14:02
Speaker 6: one person who works inside the home. Those individuals where
14:06
Speaker 6: they each respect and recognize each other's roles. Those are
14:10
Speaker 6: wonderful clients despite their income difference. The person who works
14:15
Speaker 6: outside the home isn't saying that formula is unfair. I'm
14:19
Speaker 6: paying all this child support. They say, you know what,
14:22
Speaker 6: I could never have done what you did? You know,
14:26
Speaker 6: person who worked inside the home. We work with what
14:29
Speaker 6: we would call moms and dads right who are who
14:32
Speaker 6: are raising kids. It's not just mom anymore, it's dad too,
14:35
Speaker 6: or sometimes do that, and they're willing to provide the
14:38
Speaker 6: resources whatever it takes. They'll live in a studio apartment
14:41
Speaker 6: if the kids can stay in the house. They'll just
14:44
Speaker 6: make sure. And those situations are wonderful when you have
14:47
Speaker 6: that parent, for example, as I said, you've got someone
14:51
Speaker 6: who's going to stay in the house, and let's say
14:53
Speaker 6: it's dad, who's going to just have that studio apartment.
14:56
Speaker 6: That sends such a strong message to the kids and
14:59
Speaker 6: to the the other soon to be at that says
15:02
Speaker 6: I really do still care about you and about my family.
15:05
Speaker 6: And we'll see those folks spending holidays together and having
15:08
Speaker 6: dinners together at the house and you're like, Wow, this
15:11
Speaker 6: is fantastic. That's our ideal situation. Those kinds of clients
15:16
Speaker 6: really tend to work best in mediation where they each
15:19
Speaker 6: acknowledge the role the other party has played and value
15:23
Speaker 6: it equally.
15:24
Speaker 5: So that's what I would say.
15:25
Speaker 1: And I'm so envious that you get to see this
15:27
Speaker 1: beautiful side.
15:27
Speaker 3: Of divorce, yes, because I think I.
15:30
Speaker 1: See I seen the ugly side, the fly.
15:35
Speaker 4: Side as well, been through mediation myself. I think in
15:40
Speaker 4: my mediation process it really wasn't I think we had
15:42
Speaker 4: a good mediator. It wasn't as terrible as I thought
15:46
Speaker 4: it was going to be. But I have also been
15:49
Speaker 4: close to another situation where basically the other party sat
15:56
Speaker 4: and mediation and just said absolutely not to everything that
15:59
Speaker 4: was put on the table, and they got one hundred
16:01
Speaker 4: percent of their way, and it was either go to trial,
16:05
Speaker 4: and we already knew that things were not going to
16:11
Speaker 4: be that things were going to be biased. And at
16:14
Speaker 4: the end of the day, this person who I am
16:18
Speaker 4: close to, who went through the mediation just gave up
16:22
Speaker 4: and got nothing, got absolutely nothing that was best for
16:25
Speaker 4: the child. And the other party was so incredibly selfish,
16:30
Speaker 4: not wanting anything that was best for the child, but
16:34
Speaker 4: just what was best for her. And it was really
16:38
Speaker 4: sad at the end of the day. And we ended
16:41
Speaker 4: up the court made us pay for mediation because she
16:44
Speaker 4: couldn't pay for it because of her financial situation, So
16:48
Speaker 4: we basically paid for an entire mediation where we got nothing.
16:52
Speaker 4: And So what do you have to say about those
16:54
Speaker 4: types of situations when you hear a story like that,
16:56
Speaker 4: what comes up for you?
16:58
Speaker 2: Well, I know you think you've had your own I
17:01
Speaker 2: was going to say, you've had your own personal experience
17:03
Speaker 2: with also seeing the ugly.
17:07
Speaker 1: With your childhood.
17:08
Speaker 6: Yeah, I'll get to that in a second. But to
17:11
Speaker 6: answer the doctor's question, that's the classic impasse. That person
17:17
Speaker 6: there's no you know, reasoning with that person, And all
17:20
Speaker 6: I can think of is that poor kid or those
17:24
Speaker 6: poor kids people. When you have children involved, and we
17:28
Speaker 6: all know this as parents, you know this. If you
17:32
Speaker 6: ever want, if you ever want to have some secrets
17:36
Speaker 6: spread around the neighborhood, tell a kid and say to them,
17:40
Speaker 6: do not tell anyone this, right. Children absorb things. They
17:45
Speaker 6: shout it out from the rooftops. They model behavior. So
17:48
Speaker 6: say you're in the kitchen and you cut your finger
17:50
Speaker 6: while you're slice and a vegetable, and you swear you're
17:53
Speaker 6: going to run around the house swearing this thing. Modeling
17:59
Speaker 6: is huge. And so when you're in those situations and
18:02
Speaker 6: that child or those children at that time, they might
18:05
Speaker 6: not be old enough to understand what's happening. But trust
18:07
Speaker 6: me when I tell you ten twenty thirty years down
18:10
Speaker 6: the road, those kids are going to have a lot
18:12
Speaker 6: of deep seated issues. They're going to need to do
18:14
Speaker 6: a lot of work. And unfortunately, they might not recognize
18:18
Speaker 6: they need to do work on themselves, because if they're
18:22
Speaker 6: coming from that situation where there's an individual who's just
18:25
Speaker 6: so self centered, they don't recognize that, oh, this is
18:27
Speaker 6: a problem that just spurs another generation of that, and
18:31
Speaker 6: unfortunately we do see that, We do see people who
18:34
Speaker 6: do that, and sometimes there's just no getting around it.
18:37
Speaker 6: And then you ask yourself not only the financial we
18:40
Speaker 6: also say the biggest cost of divorce is not financial,
18:44
Speaker 6: it's emotional. You have to ask yourself. Do I walk away, rebuild,
18:51
Speaker 6: reconnect with myself and just shake off what happened despite
18:55
Speaker 6: how unfair it was, and live my life, or do
18:58
Speaker 6: I just stay in the mind and keep battling and
19:00
Speaker 6: battling and battling for as you said, what nothing.
19:04
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21:18
Speaker 4: Crux right there, of what you just said was what
21:21
Speaker 4: exactly transpired, and you know the situation it was. It
21:27
Speaker 4: seemed like a no brainer, but we we you know,
21:33
Speaker 4: there was so much fighting involved, and it was basically
21:37
Speaker 4: a situation where mom had made child truant from school
21:41
Speaker 4: several years in a row, was not actively involved in school.
21:46
Speaker 4: The school the child was attending in mom's district was
21:48
Speaker 4: a failing school, and the child in dad's district or
21:53
Speaker 4: the school in dad's district was like an a school
21:57
Speaker 4: and dad had been paying for tutoring to catch the
21:59
Speaker 4: child because of the truancy there had been there. You know,
22:02
Speaker 4: test scores were low and a child was behind and
22:06
Speaker 4: a friend of the court just said where, hey, kid,
22:09
Speaker 4: where do you want to go to school? And kid says, well,
22:11
Speaker 4: I kind of want to stay where I'm at. I
22:13
Speaker 4: have friends. So a friend of the court said, okay,
22:15
Speaker 4: well we keep them in where he's at. And then
22:18
Speaker 4: it became about, well, you know, this is what the
22:22
Speaker 4: kid wants. So court friend of the court who's going
22:25
Speaker 4: to advise a judge just says, keep them where he's at,
22:28
Speaker 4: and the bigger issues of truancy and you know, neglect
22:33
Speaker 4: and being in a subpar school district just didn't seem
22:36
Speaker 4: to matter. And then so basically, you know, you're forced
22:40
Speaker 4: to the table at that point. You're forced to go
22:42
Speaker 4: to mediation at that point because you know what the
22:44
Speaker 4: outcome is going to be. Because you know that these
22:46
Speaker 4: friend of the courts are the guardian ad items or
22:48
Speaker 4: the parenting coordinators. Most of the time, their input weighs
22:53
Speaker 4: so heavy on the judge, and so you have that upfront,
22:58
Speaker 4: and so it's either we can go to the mediation
23:00
Speaker 4: table and see if we can get some some compromise,
23:04
Speaker 4: or we can go pay thirty thousand dollars for a
23:07
Speaker 4: trial when you already know what the outcome is going
23:09
Speaker 4: to be. And it played out exactly as you know,
23:14
Speaker 4: Dad thought it would play out, which was get We're
23:17
Speaker 4: going to get nothing, and Mom's going to stick her
23:20
Speaker 4: heels in and say I know I have the upper hand,
23:23
Speaker 4: So who cares about what?
23:24
Speaker 1: And then nothing changes? Nothing change, nothing, nothing changes, nothing
23:28
Speaker 1: has changed.
23:29
Speaker 6: I think there's an important point to be made there, doc,
23:31
Speaker 6: and that's in mediation, at least in private mediation. We
23:35
Speaker 6: don't do court ordered mediation. We only do private and
23:39
Speaker 6: in mediation, the parties decide. And you put it perfectly,
23:43
Speaker 6: when you enter the court system, a stranger decides.
23:46
Speaker 3: Who is a stranger.
23:48
Speaker 6: This parenting coordinator certainly wonderful person. Want to always give
23:53
Speaker 6: shout out to the people who do this difficult work.
23:56
Speaker 5: But this person may not even have met your.
23:59
Speaker 4: John people right right, they talk to the child for
24:03
Speaker 4: five minutes five five?
24:06
Speaker 3: Where do you want to go to school?
24:07
Speaker 5: For the kid?
24:08
Speaker 6: Where do you want to go to school? If you
24:09
Speaker 6: ask the kid what do you want for dinner? They're
24:11
Speaker 6: going to say cake and ice creamer, right, they give them.
24:14
Speaker 4: And ice And I was absolutely I was a little dumbfounded, Like,
24:17
Speaker 4: since when did we let six year olds make decisions
24:20
Speaker 4: about what's best for them?
24:21
Speaker 3: Right?
24:23
Speaker 4: But that, honestly it shows the flaws in the family
24:26
Speaker 4: court system.
24:27
Speaker 3: They're overburdened.
24:29
Speaker 4: We know that there can be corruption, especially in small towns.
24:33
Speaker 4: We had Christine Miller on the podcast, who is the
24:35
Speaker 4: founder of Judge, and she's doing so much work and
24:38
Speaker 4: exposing corruption and family court and yes, there, like you said,
24:41
Speaker 4: there are so many systems where people are doing the
24:44
Speaker 4: best that they can and they're honorable people. And then
24:46
Speaker 4: there's also systems that we might see, say in central
24:51
Speaker 4: or eastern Kentucky. They're very very small towns, very close
24:55
Speaker 4: knit communities, where it's the same actors and they kind
24:58
Speaker 4: of all know each other and they're going to attacked
25:00
Speaker 4: each other, and so you just don't know what you're
25:02
Speaker 4: going to get when you go into that court system.
25:05
Speaker 4: You don't know if you're going to have a set
25:06
Speaker 4: of actors that are honorable, reliable people, or whether you're
25:09
Speaker 4: going to be hometowned or.
25:10
Speaker 3: Home cooked as they called it.
25:13
Speaker 4: You don't know you're putting your the most important important
25:19
Speaker 4: thing in your life, which is your children, and then
25:23
Speaker 4: second to that your assets and what can support you
25:27
Speaker 4: financially in the hands of complete and total strangers, where
25:31
Speaker 4: you are then not an active person in the process
25:35
Speaker 4: at all at that point. And so mediation allows you
25:38
Speaker 4: to be an active part of the process. So tell
25:40
Speaker 4: us about how people can be more of an active
25:43
Speaker 4: part of the process through mediation versus that passive part
25:46
Speaker 4: when it gets handed over to the court system where
25:49
Speaker 4: you are just getting reactions and judgments and decisions from
25:54
Speaker 4: total strangers. Talk about people being active in the process
25:56
Speaker 4: oring mediation absolutely.
25:59
Speaker 6: So Number one one is get educated. One of the
26:01
Speaker 6: things that a lot of people don't understand. And of course,
26:04
Speaker 6: because I in my entire career, all the cases I've had,
26:09
Speaker 6: I can count on one hand the number of second
26:13
Speaker 6: marriages we helped mediate their divorce. Most of the folks
26:17
Speaker 6: who come to us this is their first marriage. They come,
26:21
Speaker 6: we work with them mediate their divorce. They don't know
26:24
Speaker 6: anything about the process, and that makes perfect sense. So
26:27
Speaker 6: number one is get educated, be your own best friend,
26:30
Speaker 6: be your own advocate, and one of the things that
26:32
Speaker 6: we like to do we'll talk about, I'm sure in
26:35
Speaker 6: a little bit. But on the Equitable Mediation website we
26:38
Speaker 6: have a learning center and all these free resources, these
26:40
Speaker 6: state specific guides. How does child sport work, how does
26:43
Speaker 6: alimony work? How is property division? How to negotiate a
26:46
Speaker 6: divorce course? You know all these things. Just so you
26:48
Speaker 6: don't have to be the pro Like we talked about,
26:51
Speaker 6: there are people like myself right who do this professionally
26:54
Speaker 6: day in and day out. You want to work with
26:55
Speaker 6: someone like us, However, you do want to at least
26:58
Speaker 6: be able to talk to talk number one.
27:01
Speaker 5: Number two engage. So as we were talking before about
27:05
Speaker 5: the person who sits there folds their arms and things bow.
27:08
Speaker 6: You don't know what's going to happen if you enter
27:10
Speaker 6: the court system. You might think by digging in you're
27:13
Speaker 6: going to get what you want, but surprise, surprise, it
27:16
Speaker 6: might go against you, and wow, won't you be in trouble?
27:19
Speaker 6: So also engage in the process. And that is, if,
27:23
Speaker 6: for example, the mediator asks you to complete an exercise,
27:26
Speaker 6: do it. Go, gather the financial information, review the documents
27:30
Speaker 6: that have been given to you.
27:31
Speaker 5: Don't just have time for.
27:33
Speaker 6: This, then when you come into the conversation and look
27:37
Speaker 6: who I'm talking with, professionals who are professionals in communication.
27:42
Speaker 6: You need to be willing to shift your mindset, shift
27:45
Speaker 6: your communication, and understand that whatever happened past tense happened.
27:51
Speaker 6: We say mediation is a forward looking process if you
27:54
Speaker 6: can put that hat on when you walk into the
27:56
Speaker 6: mediation space and say, you know what, I am going
27:59
Speaker 6: to a or all those terrible things you did and
28:02
Speaker 6: all those arguments we had, because I'm here at day zero,
28:06
Speaker 6: I want to march forward. I'm going to give you
28:08
Speaker 6: the benefit of the doubt and I'm going to just
28:09
Speaker 6: talk about what it is I need, I want, I feel,
28:13
Speaker 6: and directing those comments right, changing the language instead of
28:16
Speaker 6: you you you. That really helps people engage because then
28:19
Speaker 6: it's not an argument. You can't argue with someone if
28:22
Speaker 6: they tell you how they feel. Right, So, you know,
28:25
Speaker 6: kind of take the temperature down. Be forward looking, be
28:29
Speaker 6: an advocate, be engaged, and get educated. And then once
28:32
Speaker 6: you're in there, now you're feeling empowered and having someone
28:35
Speaker 6: like us, having a good mediator, And I'm glad you
28:37
Speaker 6: had a good experience because there are a lot of
28:40
Speaker 6: bad mediators out there, So having someone that makes you
28:43
Speaker 6: feel heard and validated might not side with you per se.
28:47
Speaker 5: But yeah, you know what, I see your point. That
28:49
Speaker 5: does make perfect sense.
28:51
Speaker 6: I could see why you're upset about that, getting that
28:54
Speaker 6: getting that strength to move forward.
28:55
Speaker 5: So that's how it answers.
28:57
Speaker 4: And I think, you know, with my husband, sort of
29:00
Speaker 4: my first husband, having you know, sort of that narcissistic personality,
29:07
Speaker 4: it was at a point in his life where I
29:09
Speaker 4: think his addictions had taken over and he was very,
29:11
Speaker 4: very beaten down, and he knew that if when this
29:17
Speaker 4: went into the hands of the court, he was going
29:20
Speaker 4: to probably kind of be in trouble because of so
29:22
Speaker 4: many things that had happened. And so I think at
29:26
Speaker 4: the point where we got to and this was two
29:28
Speaker 4: weeks before his death to the day we were at
29:30
Speaker 4: the mediation table and he died of an overdose, the
29:33
Speaker 4: one thing that I couldn't get him to agree on
29:36
Speaker 4: was drug testing, and so that's I said, Okay, we
29:40
Speaker 4: got breathalyzing, we got you know, pretty much, I was
29:45
Speaker 4: going to have the girls almost completely. He was going
29:48
Speaker 4: to get them four days a month, and I still
29:51
Speaker 4: was like, no, we're gonna I'm going to go to
29:53
Speaker 4: trial and I'm going to push for this drug testing,
29:55
Speaker 4: but the fact that that trial just kept getting pushed
29:58
Speaker 4: back and pushed back and all of the that happen
30:00
Speaker 4: in the court system. I walked away from mediation thinking
30:04
Speaker 4: that was the most win. I knew I was going
30:06
Speaker 4: to get there, But I'm still going to have to
30:09
Speaker 4: utilize the court system. And so do you ever have
30:12
Speaker 4: cases where things just you said you had ninety eight percent?
30:16
Speaker 3: But are are there ever the cases.
30:18
Speaker 4: Where you think you come to the table and you're like, no,
30:21
Speaker 4: I think at this point you're going to have to
30:24
Speaker 4: take your chance at trial. Like, do you ever get
30:28
Speaker 4: something that is so critically important that can't be resolved
30:32
Speaker 4: where you, as the mediator are like really telling people, no,
30:36
Speaker 4: it is the best case at this point that you
30:38
Speaker 4: guys go through the family court system.
30:40
Speaker 5: Do you ever have a badly Yes, I do.
30:43
Speaker 6: I do, And people are often surprised, they're shot, what
30:47
Speaker 6: do you mean you're the mediator?
30:48
Speaker 5: You have to you have to do this, right.
30:51
Speaker 6: What people don't understand mediation is a voluntary process. And
30:55
Speaker 6: guess what, it's voluntary for me as well, right, So
30:58
Speaker 6: it's and it's one of those situations where it's my house,
31:02
Speaker 6: my rules. You don't like my rules, no problem. I
31:05
Speaker 6: like to tell people I'm a nice guy. You know,
31:08
Speaker 6: I'm a peacemaker. I want everybody to get along. I
31:11
Speaker 6: want to help everyone out to my own detriment. Sometimes
31:14
Speaker 6: my wife will be like, why don't you let those
31:16
Speaker 6: folks go? Like, I know I can get them there.
31:19
Speaker 6: I have to do this. So at the end of
31:21
Speaker 6: the day, there are cases where I just see the
31:25
Speaker 6: fact pattern and I'm watching how it's unfolding when I ask,
31:29
Speaker 6: for example, there's there's a couple. There's three of them
31:32
Speaker 6: that come to mind, and one you already touched on.
31:35
Speaker 6: And I'm sorry to hear about the situation you had, Doc,
31:37
Speaker 6: because I too have had a client die in the
31:40
Speaker 6: middle of mediation from an overdose. Not literally at the table,
31:44
Speaker 6: but they didn't show up for their next session. And
31:47
Speaker 6: those those kinds of demons. So when we have someone
31:50
Speaker 6: whose addiction is to the point where it's now interfering
31:53
Speaker 6: with their ability to make rational decisions, that's where I
31:57
Speaker 6: have to pass them on.
31:58
Speaker 5: And I have to.
31:58
Speaker 6: Say I I am not a mental health professional, not
32:02
Speaker 6: a clinician at all, and I want to totally qualify that. However,
32:05
Speaker 6: by my estimation, I would say twenty five percent of
32:09
Speaker 6: our cases involve some sort of alcoholism drug addiction. And
32:14
Speaker 6: I'm not talking person that we think about under the
32:18
Speaker 6: bridge shooting up. I'm thinking pain pills. I'm thinking person
32:22
Speaker 6: at their desk who goes out and has the three
32:23
Speaker 6: martini lunch.
32:25
Speaker 5: This is these.
32:26
Speaker 3: Functioning individuals, individuals.
32:28
Speaker 6: Very functioning. So that's number one. Number two is what
32:31
Speaker 6: we'll call financial infidelity. It's an interesting statement, however, we've
32:36
Speaker 6: got a there's an archetype of an individual and we
32:39
Speaker 6: see a lot more of this today when we watch
32:41
Speaker 6: the news and we see the Jeff Bezos's and the
32:44
Speaker 6: Mark Zuckerberg's hitting into billion trillionaires seemingly making money hand
32:48
Speaker 6: over fist because they're investing in the latest, greatest thing.
32:51
Speaker 6: And so we have some clients who said, oh, it
32:54
Speaker 6: was a sure bet I drained our four to one
32:56
Speaker 6: K because I really thought we were going to build
32:58
Speaker 6: the base on Mars and I.
33:00
Speaker 5: Really believed in it.
33:01
Speaker 6: They didn't tell their spouse, So those things happen, right,
33:05
Speaker 6: and then so you've got that situation, and then you've
33:08
Speaker 6: got your classic hidden infidelity and where these are the
33:12
Speaker 6: situations that are so extreme where I tend to I
33:17
Speaker 6: tend to play dumb sometimes as a technique. I love
33:21
Speaker 6: the phrase, help me understand. I just walked in, I
33:26
Speaker 6: just walked in off the street, I just met you folks,
33:30
Speaker 6: help me understand why X, Y Z, And a lot
33:34
Speaker 6: of times you because as a communicator, a professional communicator,
33:38
Speaker 6: you're listing for the patterns. You're giving enough people, You're
33:42
Speaker 6: giving people enough sort of rope to hang themselves. They're
33:44
Speaker 6: tripping over their words. You're just letting them walk themselves
33:48
Speaker 6: into the thorn bushes, if you will. And then something
33:51
Speaker 6: dynamic is revealed and that happens. So we'll find those patterns.
33:56
Speaker 6: It's a very rare day where that happens. However, to
33:58
Speaker 6: your point, I'll come along and I'll say, listen, this
34:03
Speaker 6: is a situation where there is really a lot of
34:06
Speaker 6: financial infidelity or impropriety or dissipation of assets.
34:10
Speaker 5: You're going to need the legal.
34:12
Speaker 6: System in order to recoup these because I just don't
34:15
Speaker 6: see how a person with no money is going to
34:17
Speaker 6: pay you back two hundred and fifty thousand.
34:19
Speaker 3: Times, right, Oh my goodness.
34:22
Speaker 6: Those are the situations where we get into it. And
34:26
Speaker 6: the last thing I'll say is I do my very
34:29
Speaker 6: best to balance the playing field when there's a power
34:32
Speaker 6: and balance. I'm always advocating for the say, the quieter spouse,
34:38
Speaker 6: the one who's perceived as at the disadvantage, whether it's educationally, financially, etc. Sometimes, though,
34:45
Speaker 6: to your point, that narcissistic personality is just such a
34:49
Speaker 6: know and all is just so convinced that what they
34:52
Speaker 6: are saying is correct. And that's when I say, well,
34:55
Speaker 6: you know what, folks, I'm not an attorney, but it
34:58
Speaker 6: sure sounds like you are, so maybe I'll represent yourself
35:01
Speaker 6: in court. And I think that's where this is headed.
35:04
Speaker 6: So I'm going to just call out here. I don't
35:06
Speaker 6: give up easily. I'm talking a handful of cases, maybe
35:09
Speaker 6: two or three in my entire career with others where
35:12
Speaker 6: I've guided them to attorneys and I've said, look, you've
35:14
Speaker 6: made good progress on this front. Here's an issue you
35:18
Speaker 6: really need to get involved with lawyers. I'll hand them off,
35:22
Speaker 6: try to find mediation friendly lawyers, explain the situation, and
35:25
Speaker 6: then you know, you need to take it from here.
35:28
Speaker 6: So there's a lot of interesting things that happen with
35:31
Speaker 6: people that that was you don't see on the surface.
35:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was actually going to ask you if you
35:35
Speaker 2: ever see the opposite where because it is so peaceful
35:38
Speaker 2: coming in with a couple. Do you ever see couples
35:42
Speaker 2: get back together?
35:44
Speaker 6: Yeah?
35:44
Speaker 5: Occasionally, rarely, occasionally, Yeah, sometimes we've had We've had one
35:49
Speaker 5: in the middle of mediation.
35:50
Speaker 6: Sometimes folks do say wow, it's sometimes it's a process.
35:54
Speaker 6: So we know, for example, the prospect person who calls
35:59
Speaker 6: and lead a voicemail at one in the morning, I
36:02
Speaker 6: need to see you tomorrow. I'm not calling you back.
36:05
Speaker 6: I'm so sorry, you're probably drunk, it's late. I'm not
36:08
Speaker 6: calling you back. You don't want a divorce. You just
36:11
Speaker 6: had to fight the folks who come in and then
36:13
Speaker 6: been thinking about it for a while. Certainly the folks
36:16
Speaker 6: who sometimes come in because they're so frustrated. And I
36:19
Speaker 6: know this speaks to exactly what you two do. We
36:22
Speaker 6: sometimes are in agreement, yet because and I use the example,
36:27
Speaker 6: one of us speech speaks French and the other one
36:29
Speaker 6: speaks German, we just don't understand each other, even though
36:32
Speaker 6: we're saying the exact same thing. So when they get
36:34
Speaker 6: into mediation and you get someone like me asking questions
36:37
Speaker 6: and saying, I don't know you guys, but it sounds
36:41
Speaker 6: like you're in agreement on how to handle this, or
36:44
Speaker 6: I'm here, Okay, you're saying it one way and you're
36:46
Speaker 6: saying it the other way, but I'm hearing the same
36:49
Speaker 6: thing here, Am I mistaken?
36:51
Speaker 5: And then they kind of step back and they're like,
36:53
Speaker 5: I said, maybe you might want to consider some counselor
36:56
Speaker 5: or some coaching.
36:57
Speaker 6: Or stuff, because if we all have to work on
37:01
Speaker 6: our own selves, that's a lot of what I think
37:03
Speaker 6: people fail to realize is that when you're working with
37:06
Speaker 6: a partner, you're bringing your own set of baggage in
37:08
Speaker 6: here and so well.
37:09
Speaker 2: And I thought that, yeah, I think that this is
37:11
Speaker 2: why I asked that question, because this, this collaboration between
37:15
Speaker 2: you two is so important because I think what Doc
37:19
Speaker 2: sees a lot are people who come in trying to
37:22
Speaker 2: save their marriage. But she may look at them and
37:25
Speaker 2: be like, hey, it's time for a divorce, right, and
37:28
Speaker 2: then she can push she can push those people to you,
37:32
Speaker 2: Whereas on your end of things, within your practice, you
37:35
Speaker 2: may see people that aren't quite ready to get a
37:39
Speaker 2: divorce and may just need some coaching or counseling or
37:43
Speaker 2: therapy and then you can push them to DOC. So
37:46
Speaker 2: it's sort of this perfect collab where you guys can
37:49
Speaker 2: really help each other based on the direction that the
37:52
Speaker 2: people may need to go. And I know that DOC
37:55
Speaker 2: works with you know some higher stakes clients that you know, finances,
38:00
Speaker 2: I'm in deploy a lot finances or.
38:02
Speaker 6: Yeah, there's a lot of stake. Yeah, yeah, person, you
38:04
Speaker 6: say to yourself, why not take the chance? Right, you've
38:07
Speaker 6: done You've done this thing where you've stood up in
38:10
Speaker 6: front of your friends and family, or maybe you've done
38:12
Speaker 6: it at the city hall wherever you've gone. You have
38:15
Speaker 6: somehow made some statement that says I profess my love
38:19
Speaker 6: or my commitment or whatever it is to you other individual.
38:23
Speaker 6: And we've worked hard, and we've gone through this process
38:26
Speaker 6: and heck, nobody there's no instruction manual on how to
38:30
Speaker 6: be married when we get married. I think someone said
38:33
Speaker 6: to me once. You know that it was a totally
38:35
Speaker 6: offhanded comment, and you know how it resonates and it
38:38
Speaker 6: sticks in your craw and then it sits there and
38:40
Speaker 6: you going wow, said you know, it's really easy.
38:43
Speaker 5: To get married, but it's really hard to get divorced.
38:46
Speaker 5: I think it should be the other way around.
38:48
Speaker 6: Oh it's a great point, right, and make it hard
38:53
Speaker 6: to get married. So you know what you're up against.
38:56
Speaker 6: You know you have to go to counseling right out
38:58
Speaker 6: of the gate. People only want to fix things that
39:00
Speaker 6: are broken. Why not set a good foundation, right and
39:03
Speaker 6: and build on that rather than saying, which stumbled along,
39:07
Speaker 6: we got in these unhealthy patterns we can't get out of.
39:10
Speaker 4: Up we're going oers right, Yeah, and yeah, I agree
39:14
Speaker 4: one hundred percent. I mean I think even like I
39:17
Speaker 4: have this in the back of my mind and maybe
39:19
Speaker 4: I shouldn't say it out loud somebody will steal my idea.
39:22
Speaker 4: But I almost want to create like a dating app
39:25
Speaker 4: where people are assessed for like their attachment and like
39:29
Speaker 4: and then like there's compatibility there, right, So like it's like, oh,
39:34
Speaker 4: you're not ready to date. You've got some major insecurities.
39:38
Speaker 4: You need to go through this coaching program first. So
39:41
Speaker 4: you need to go through this counting program first, some
39:44
Speaker 4: kind of program, right that actually gets to the heart
39:47
Speaker 4: of your issues that, let's face it, those issues don't
39:51
Speaker 4: show up until later. Dating phases are usually magical, and
39:56
Speaker 4: then it's when attachment takes place, and then people are
40:00
Speaker 4: too afraid to face the pain of detachment that we
40:03
Speaker 4: see people's attachment wounds really start to elevate and show
40:06
Speaker 4: up in their relationship. And then sometimes, and actually a
40:10
Speaker 4: lot of times, this doesn't show up in full force
40:13
Speaker 4: until people are married because maybe they're not super insecure,
40:18
Speaker 4: but their insecurities really start to bounce off of each
40:21
Speaker 4: other once that marriage dynamic takes place. Because marriage is
40:24
Speaker 4: such a profound step where people feel a little bit trapped,
40:28
Speaker 4: a little bit stuck, especially more avoidant people, that marriage
40:33
Speaker 4: itself is a huge trigger for them, and so the
40:36
Speaker 4: full effect of their avoidance doesn't really come out until
40:39
Speaker 4: after marriage. And so how can we get people to
40:44
Speaker 4: recognize their issues before they take this big step, before
40:47
Speaker 4: they end up at your table for example?
40:50
Speaker 3: That's just something that goes through.
40:52
Speaker 1: It's our new long term goal.
40:54
Speaker 4: Okay, yeah, somebody's going to be like yeah, yeah, somebody's
40:57
Speaker 4: already going to start accept Yeah they don't really a
41:00
Speaker 4: lot of people don't understand attachment.
41:02
Speaker 2: Right, so they won't be able to I do want
41:03
Speaker 2: to go back and revisit the question just about you know,
41:06
Speaker 2: your personal journey and how you got to this point
41:10
Speaker 2: in your your career and wanting to help people.
41:13
Speaker 1: So let's just if you're comfortable talking about that, of course, Okay.
41:17
Speaker 6: Great, absolutely, So I am a child of a litigated divorce,
41:22
Speaker 6: so I know of what I speak. I can bring that,
41:27
Speaker 6: you know, that experience to the table. And before when
41:30
Speaker 6: you asked me about how you keep people at the table,
41:33
Speaker 6: one of the things I'll say to folks is if
41:36
Speaker 6: you don't think it can happen to you, take a
41:38
Speaker 6: look at me. I am the example of what happens
41:41
Speaker 6: when your folks litigate your divorce. So my mom dad,
41:45
Speaker 6: they went through a pattern where they were volatile. They
41:48
Speaker 6: were kerosene in a match. They were that kind of
41:50
Speaker 6: mix Mom's Italian, dad's Irish two very calm wow yoh,
41:56
Speaker 6: mellow backgrounds, you know, just really laid back people and
42:00
Speaker 6: only fine and so sarcasmo are in case the listeners.
42:04
Speaker 4: Can't see you, Oh, I'm watching I'm watching Boardwalk Empire
42:08
Speaker 4: right now, and it's all about like Italian mob and
42:10
Speaker 4: like Irish mob, and like the strong personalities of like
42:15
Speaker 4: those two things merging. So I'm picking up on what
42:18
Speaker 4: you're putting down with that, right, And.
42:20
Speaker 6: So they would go For first, it would be a day,
42:23
Speaker 6: then it would be a week, then it would be
42:25
Speaker 6: a month, and it would be months where they wouldn't talk.
42:27
Speaker 6: They'd have these epic blowouts and then silence. As an individual,
42:31
Speaker 6: as a kid growing up, what you learned is, Wow,
42:35
Speaker 6: conflict is bad. It leads to silence, It separates people.
42:39
Speaker 6: And that really had a mark on me, so my
42:43
Speaker 6: my role and my philosophy. As when I say a peacemaker,
42:47
Speaker 6: if someone said, how would you describe yourself in one word,
42:50
Speaker 6: I'd say peacemaker.
42:51
Speaker 5: It's because I know what those.
42:53
Speaker 6: Lasting effects can be on both the adults and the child.
42:57
Speaker 6: I learned, wow, we don't talk one, we have a problem,
43:00
Speaker 6: we avoid each other. So I did a lot of
43:03
Speaker 6: work myself to flip that script around. Now I see
43:06
Speaker 6: it a lot in my profession. However, one thing that
43:10
Speaker 6: I think was most impactful for me is we were
43:13
Speaker 6: talking about going to court. Now, apparently these days, about
43:17
Speaker 6: two percent of cases actually wind up in litigation, So
43:20
Speaker 6: statistically it's shown that very few actually make it to
43:25
Speaker 6: in front of a judge. Because there are a lot
43:26
Speaker 6: of these preemptive programs, right parenting coordinators in New Jersey,
43:30
Speaker 6: we have what's called an early settlement panel, where there's
43:32
Speaker 6: three individuals who will basically make a ruling that they
43:35
Speaker 6: recommend to the judge who probably will take the ruling.
43:38
Speaker 6: So in my experience growing up as a child of divorce,
43:41
Speaker 6: my folks were arguing over who was going to pay
43:44
Speaker 6: for me to go to college. Now, at the time,
43:46
Speaker 6: my mom had just gotten a part time job. She
43:48
Speaker 6: was inside the home with me until I was eleven,
43:51
Speaker 6: and now I'm a teenager, I'm getting to that place
43:53
Speaker 6: applying to colleges, and my dad wanted to share fifty
43:56
Speaker 6: to fifty. Well, at that time, he probably made about
43:59
Speaker 6: ten times more than my mom did.
44:01
Speaker 5: Probably even more.
44:02
Speaker 6: And so they went to court, and my mom thought
44:06
Speaker 6: it would be a great idea to put me in
44:08
Speaker 6: a suit, sit me in the back of the courtroom
44:10
Speaker 6: so that the judge could see my face and put
44:13
Speaker 6: the name in the face and the good grades and
44:15
Speaker 6: all of that stuff together. And I sat there and
44:18
Speaker 6: watched them go back and forth and scream and yell,
44:21
Speaker 6: and it was so strange because I'm watching my dad
44:26
Speaker 6: and he's getting madder and madder, and he's starting to
44:30
Speaker 6: yell at.
44:30
Speaker 5: The judge, and you know, I don't know much about judges,
44:35
Speaker 5: but they don't like it when you yell at him.
44:36
Speaker 5: So I learned lesson. So the judge says, mister Dylan,
44:41
Speaker 5: I'm now I'm going to make it sixty forty that
44:43
Speaker 5: you're going to pay sixty forty. And my father is like, now,
44:47
Speaker 5: he's just incensed.
44:48
Speaker 6: And the judge says he's banging the gavel the whole thing,
44:51
Speaker 6: and he's like.
44:52
Speaker 5: Now it's seventy thirty.
44:53
Speaker 6: So now my dad actually physically gets up, his lawyer
44:57
Speaker 6: grabs him, bailiff is coming over. I'm s in the
45:00
Speaker 6: back watching this whole thing, and the judge says, would
45:03
Speaker 6: you like to try for eighteen twenty? And he's literally
45:06
Speaker 6: being like restrained and I'm.
45:09
Speaker 3: Laughing only now only that's that's.
45:12
Speaker 6: Up right, And so that's what you're thinking to yourself.
45:15
Speaker 6: You're like wow. And then we went out into the hall.
45:19
Speaker 6: My mom and my dad, I guess, were just doing
45:21
Speaker 6: their last little ted of ted arguing there and I'm
45:23
Speaker 6: just standing there thinking, man, when can I get this
45:25
Speaker 6: tie off my neck? Because I'm, you know, fifteen or sixteen.
45:29
Speaker 6: And that was the last I ever saw of my
45:31
Speaker 6: father was in the Hall of the courtroom, didn't hear
45:33
Speaker 6: from him. I got a letter, I think maybe one
45:35
Speaker 6: or two letters from him saying he was getting remarried.
45:39
Speaker 6: And then the last letter I got from him, well
45:42
Speaker 6: not from him, but from his lawyer his estate. He
45:44
Speaker 6: had died in twenty nineteen, so I simply got a
45:47
Speaker 6: very lovely form letter that said, we're required to inform you.
45:52
Speaker 6: You know your father's passed away. You have any questions,
45:56
Speaker 6: contact our office. So that was a thirty five year
45:58
Speaker 6: span and that was it. So I tell folks, I'm like,
46:02
Speaker 6: guess what that can happen to you. It happened to me.
46:06
Speaker 6: Pop quiz. Do you want that for your kids?
46:08
Speaker 5: I sure hope the answers yea.
46:11
Speaker 4: I have so many clients with such a similar story
46:15
Speaker 4: that you know, and every time I hear it, I'm thinking,
46:20
Speaker 4: oh my goodness. You know, people don't understand the lasting
46:25
Speaker 4: attachment trauma that that creates, and how much work that
46:29
Speaker 4: child is going to have to do to undo these
46:33
Speaker 4: blueprints right of what it means to be close to someone,
46:37
Speaker 4: what marriage means, what intimacy means, and to see it
46:41
Speaker 4: play out in such a dysfunctional manner, it's just heartbreaking.
46:45
Speaker 4: And I'm really sorry that you had to go through that.
46:47
Speaker 4: And I think what a full circle, you know, like
46:52
Speaker 4: the moment, like life decisions gorgeous, Yeah, to get into
46:58
Speaker 4: this perfect to make sure that people don't have to
47:03
Speaker 4: experience that type of trauma and heartbreak.
47:06
Speaker 2: Well, and it's sad because you know, I'm sure both
47:08
Speaker 2: of your parents were in the wrong in those situations
47:11
Speaker 2: in certain circumstances. But what is so sad and heartbreaking
47:16
Speaker 2: or one of the saddest parts about it is that
47:19
Speaker 2: your dad thought.
47:19
Speaker 1: The easier route out was just to never see you again.
47:23
Speaker 2: And that is really really heart wrenching, you know, and
47:27
Speaker 2: and when I have, you know, not knowing your father,
47:30
Speaker 2: but I'm sure that that's not really what he wanted.
47:33
Speaker 1: And it does sound like it sounds like a coward.
47:37
Speaker 2: Move to make that decision, but maybe he just felt
47:41
Speaker 2: so defeated, right, He felt so defeated in the moment
47:44
Speaker 2: and felt so wronged in the moment that he felt like, well,
47:47
Speaker 2: I'm waving the white flag of surrender here and I'll
47:51
Speaker 2: just choose to never see my son again.
47:53
Speaker 1: And I'm sure, in fact, I know that this still happened.
47:57
Speaker 4: It does my husband's literal best friend is in this
48:03
Speaker 4: exact same situation. He was in the army with my husband.
48:07
Speaker 4: He had a lot of PTSD, got married very young,
48:12
Speaker 4: and he was the best man at our wedding just
48:15
Speaker 4: a few years ago. And then he entered the divorce
48:17
Speaker 4: process with his wife. He started drinking again. Drinking was
48:20
Speaker 4: a huge issue for him, and he had been sober
48:22
Speaker 4: for a really long time and just went down the
48:25
Speaker 4: alcohol rabbit hole. I think their major mental health issues
48:29
Speaker 4: started coming up because of the excessive drinking, and.
48:32
Speaker 3: He basically just pieced out on his kids.
48:34
Speaker 4: And he's living in another state and he is fully
48:37
Speaker 4: convinced that his kids are better off without him. And
48:40
Speaker 4: knowing their mom, she's such a great mom. She's an
48:43
Speaker 4: amazing mother. She does such a she's a business owner,
48:47
Speaker 4: she does great for herself. But my heart breaks for
48:50
Speaker 4: her children because no matter how good of a mother
48:53
Speaker 4: she is, they are going to feel the effects of
48:55
Speaker 4: that father abandonment and there's nothing she can do to fully,
49:00
Speaker 4: you know, mitigate that in any way. And she's, like
49:04
Speaker 4: I said, she's a wonderful mother and she has great kids.
49:08
Speaker 4: Her kids are doing are doing well, but they hurt,
49:13
Speaker 4: you know, and we know that they hurt, and and
49:17
Speaker 4: that's just that it's just unacceptable at every level that
49:20
Speaker 4: you you have those beliefs that somehow your kids are
49:23
Speaker 4: going to be better off without you. I think the
49:25
Speaker 4: the healthy mindset is I got to do whatever it
49:28
Speaker 4: takes to become someone that can be a healthy role
49:32
Speaker 4: model and a healthy engaged parent.
49:34
Speaker 2: Just parenting is sacrificial, it is and and it's very sacrificial,
49:39
Speaker 2: and we don't always get what we want. A lot
49:41
Speaker 2: of times we don't get what we want as parents.
49:44
Speaker 2: But I think the beauty of your testimony is that
49:47
Speaker 2: you real life experience. You've got a great education. You
49:51
Speaker 2: graduate from Yale correct.
49:55
Speaker 6: Drexel in my undergrad but my mediation train is Harvard
49:58
Speaker 6: in Northwestern.
50:00
Speaker 2: You've got so much, so much credibility when it comes
50:05
Speaker 2: pretty good when it comes to your education. But more importantly,
50:08
Speaker 2: you have credibility when it comes to personal experience.
50:11
Speaker 1: And that is the best. It's the best.
50:14
Speaker 2: And so I think for our listeners, just to wrap
50:17
Speaker 2: this up, I think that you know, if you are
50:20
Speaker 2: in the midst of of you know, a divorce or
50:23
Speaker 2: on the verge of a divorce, and it can be peaceful.
50:27
Speaker 2: You know Joe and his team at Equable Equitable Mediation, right,
50:31
Speaker 2: is the name of your business, would be a great resource,
50:35
Speaker 2: and just I want just to wrap things up, tell
50:39
Speaker 2: people where else they can find you, and then talk
50:42
Speaker 2: a little bit about those resources that are available on
50:45
Speaker 2: your website.
50:46
Speaker 6: Certainly, So best place is our website exactly, That's where
50:50
Speaker 6: we would tell everyone to start. It's Equitablemediation dot com.
50:53
Speaker 6: So you have to be careful because sometimes people spelt meditation,
50:57
Speaker 6: so I just want to point.
50:58
Speaker 3: That out, correct.
51:00
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
51:01
Speaker 6: We get a lot of spam for yoga studios, so
51:03
Speaker 6: it's really strange. But it's Equitable Mediation dot com. And
51:08
Speaker 6: there's up on the menu. You'll see it's called the
51:10
Speaker 6: Learning Center. When you click that, it's going to bring
51:12
Speaker 6: you to a host of resources and they're all tagged
51:14
Speaker 6: out by various categories. Ebooks, blog posts, podcasts, videos. We
51:19
Speaker 6: have some paid courses, some free courses, resources, and.
51:22
Speaker 5: Really we feel the more you can get.
51:25
Speaker 6: Educated and I was talking about books, right, We're firm
51:27
Speaker 6: believers in this, the more you can educate yourself. You
51:30
Speaker 6: don't have to do it yourself, right. We just like
51:32
Speaker 6: when we talk about if you have a leaky sink.
51:34
Speaker 6: You want to know where the leak is coming from.
51:36
Speaker 6: But you're not going to get under there, at least
51:38
Speaker 6: I'm not because I can't do blumbing. But you're going
51:41
Speaker 6: to want to learn. Okay, what is it going to
51:43
Speaker 6: take to get through this process? And a lot of
51:44
Speaker 6: that stuff is free available. You can just go read it,
51:47
Speaker 6: download it, whatever you do. And we just feel we've
51:49
Speaker 6: always been doing that. You know, we've had a million
51:52
Speaker 6: visitors to our website, We've had you been doing this
51:55
Speaker 6: for seventeen years, and it's always been with that one
51:58
Speaker 6: mantra in mind. I remember my mom, you know, when
52:01
Speaker 6: she got divorced, there was no Internet, there was no Google,
52:03
Speaker 6: and she had to rely on her lawyers. She had
52:05
Speaker 6: to ask her friends who gave her advice air quotes sure,
52:09
Speaker 6: who were not lawyers. But we want to give you
52:12
Speaker 6: information from a reliable source. Go out there, take as
52:17
Speaker 6: much as you can, take as much as you need,
52:19
Speaker 6: and if you are so inclined, there's a button up
52:22
Speaker 6: there that's us talk to us, and you click that,
52:24
Speaker 6: you'll get in touch with my partner, who's my wife, Cheryl,
52:27
Speaker 6: she's our divorce coach, and you'll talk to her, see
52:30
Speaker 6: if mediation is right, see if we can help, and
52:33
Speaker 6: you know, we're always happy to answer questions.
52:35
Speaker 5: Right, it's a free call.
52:36
Speaker 6: You can always just reach out to her and if
52:38
Speaker 6: you're a good fit for mediation, great, and if not,
52:40
Speaker 6: we'll be honest with you. We want you to get
52:42
Speaker 6: the best result in your situation. It might not mean
52:44
Speaker 6: working with us. We don't want to prolong your pain
52:47
Speaker 6: any longer than it has to be, So just reach
52:50
Speaker 6: out if we can help, happy to do so, or
52:52
Speaker 6: guide you to.
52:53
Speaker 5: Someone who can.
52:54
Speaker 3: So Yeah, that's amazing.
52:55
Speaker 4: I think this actually felt very healing for me to
52:59
Speaker 4: know that there are people and there are resources that
53:04
Speaker 4: can help you have an amicable divorce and can help
53:08
Speaker 4: you really truly do what's best for your child, because
53:13
Speaker 4: we have shown you the other side of it through
53:15
Speaker 4: family Court in our Family Court series of just what
53:18
Speaker 4: a gamble it can be, both in my personal experience
53:21
Speaker 4: and the experience of people that I have been close to,
53:23
Speaker 4: as I mentioned on this podcast, and how how brutal
53:27
Speaker 4: it can be if you end up in the family
53:28
Speaker 4: court system. And so if there is a way around that,
53:32
Speaker 4: take it, take it. And so thank you so much,
53:36
Speaker 4: Joe for coming on our podcast and for telling us
53:39
Speaker 4: that there can be a softer and more collaborative side
53:42
Speaker 4: of divorce and.
53:43
Speaker 3: How you help people achieve that. We really appreciate your time.
53:46
Speaker 5: Yes, so thank you, thank you so much.
53:48
Speaker 3: Thank you.
53:49
Speaker 2: So please go check out Joe and his wife Cheryl
53:52
Speaker 2: at Equitable Mediation dot com and of course, while you're there,
53:55
Speaker 2: check out the lovedoc dot com see all of doctor
53:58
Speaker 2: Hensley's services there. For our listeners, we offer a special
54:02
Speaker 2: promo code love Doc twenty seven for twenty seven percent
54:05
Speaker 2: off all of doctor Hinsley's coaching programs, her courses, and
54:09
Speaker 2: her hybrid group program. And until next time, peace, love
54:13
Speaker 2: and perspective