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Can Technology Shortcut Awakening? The Helmet and the Search for Enlightenment · Tracking Wisdom

• 0:03
  Peter: You're listening to the Tracking Wisdom Podcast, exploring the universal truths that we see woven through culture, consciousness, and the human experience.
• 0:17
  Ryan: good morning everybody, and welcome back to another episode of the Tracking Wisdom Podcast.
• 0:21
  Ryan: My name is Ryan,
• 0:22
  Peter: my name's Peter.
• 0:23
  Ryan: And today, I wanted to touch on something related to the Finders.
• 0:28
  Ryan: So we've had other discussions previously, but I think we should probably bring our audience up to speed a little bit about Jeffrey Martin.
• 0:37
  Peter: He's, he's a founder of the Transformational Space.
• 0:40
  Peter: He is an early researcher in kind of formalizing our understanding of awakening.
• 0:46
  Ryan: In a scientific way.
• 0:47
  Ryan: I mean, it was a scientific study that he
• 0:50
  Peter: Yeah.
• 0:51
  Ryan: Produced.
• 0:52
  Ryan: He references fundamental wellbeing, which sometimes you guys will hear us talk about.
• 0:57
  Ryan: And also in his academic materials calls it persistent, non-symbolic experience.
• 1:03
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 1:03
  Ryan: So they're synonymous and are also synonymous with awakening or enlightenment, though there's some discussion around what true enlightenment is.
• 1:13
  Ryan: If you wanna learn more about it, read his book, the Finders.
• 1:17
  Ryan: The point being.
• 1:18
  Ryan: We, Peter and I, are part of a finders community, and I came across this interesting kind of back and forth in the thread that talked about what is referenced as the helmet.
• 1:33
  Ryan: And it is, I don't even know that it's one device, but basically it's a head gear device that uses infrared light and I think sonic stimulation as well to basically, influence the brain and brain activity and.
• 1:53
  Ryan: What?
• 1:53
  Peter: Oh, I just clicked on the link.
• 1:54
  Peter: And so it's a neuromatrix and it looks like a bicycle helmet.
• 1:57
  Ryan: Yeah, so that's probably why they call it the helmet.
• 2:00
  Ryan: The point is not to discuss specifically the helmet.
• 2:04
  Ryan: So the background on this was somebody had asked, the group about experiences using the helmet and had heard, you know, some positive things and the discussion went back and forth.
• 2:18
  Ryan: But one person raised an interesting point, which was something along the lines of, if you're using external devices in order to experience the non-symbolic state.
• 2:31
  Ryan: Is it really persistent?
• 2:33
  Ryan: And it seemed like it was challenging the idea that this person experienced fundamental wellbeing in a persistent way, or, you know, people who may rely on such a device are actually experiencing it in a persistent way.
• 2:48
  Ryan: It wasn't disrespectful, but I think it
• 2:50
  Peter: mm-hmm.
• 2:50
  Ryan: It had a tone that was, you know,
• 2:53
  Peter: It was skeptical.
• 2:54
  Ryan: Skeptical,
• 2:54
  Peter: yeah.
• 2:55
  Ryan: Not necessarily of its efficacy, but-
• 2:57
  Peter: mm-hmm
• 2:57
  Ryan: in the persistence of somebody's experience, if they're relying on these external stimulation.
• 3:03
  Ryan: And so I want to have a discussion between Peter and I, wrestling more with that concept than the helmet itself.
• 3:11
  Ryan: I Found that comment it makes sense to challenge the experience.
• 3:17
  Ryan: Now I think we could also probably talk about what does it matter, right?
• 3:20
  Ryan: If somebody's in an early location, and struggling with the persistence, is it a bad thing?
• 3:25
  Ryan: I don't think anybody was really suggesting it's a bad thing.
• 3:27
  Ryan: The point is, it also reminded me, and I think it actually came up in the conversation, was meditative practices.
• 3:35
  Ryan: You've talked about the group awareness exercise.
• 3:39
  Ryan: There's many different practices that people use to support their spiritual growth and enlightenment journey.
• 3:47
  Ryan: And I think that those could be conceived of as similar tools.
• 3:52
  Ryan: And I think the spiritual practices would generally be accepted, more than a device.
• 3:59
  Ryan: Somebody had brought up sort of in a, in a negative way, you know?
• 4:04
  Ryan: "Ya, so does drinking and doing drugs..."
• 4:06
  Ryan: essentially can give you access.
• 4:10
  Ryan: Now, I don't think the drugs that they had mentioned, I don't think drinking and doing cocaine and stuff actually gives access to fundamental wellbeing.
• 4:17
  Ryan: However, there are psychedelics and things that have been anecdotally noted to transcend into a spiritual experience.
• 4:27
  Peter: Basically.
• 4:28
  Peter: I am just thinking about Jeffrey's work.
• 4:30
  Peter: And just from that, I can understand how, Jeffrey at least, would be aligned with this technology.
• 4:39
  Peter: Because that's basically what he was working towards, right?
• 4:42
  Peter: Or has been working towards.
• 4:43
  Peter: So one of the questions is, the wisdom of electronically modifying one's brain, is the term that he used.
• 4:50
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 4:50
  Peter: Now that's something that Jeffrey explicitly wanted to do,
• 4:54
  Ryan: right?
• 4:54
  Peter: Or wants to do.
• 4:55
  Peter: He has long pursued, technology's for this.
• 4:59
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 5:00
  Peter: Transcranial ultrasound is one of the technologies I think, There's a number of ways to externally affect the brain function.
• 5:09
  Peter: And the point is that, his research was around understanding what are the brain changes that happen, in the process of awakening.
• 5:21
  Peter: So, first it was just, what is the process of awakening?
• 5:26
  Peter: Like, is it a real thing?
• 5:27
  Peter: Is it a, is it a universal thing?
• 5:29
  Peter: All these people talk about it in different ways.
• 5:31
  Peter: And so he had this, the finders book was this giant research project, with thousands and thousands of hours of interview, with awakening people, from all diverse backgrounds.
• 5:42
  Peter: And then him codifying it into, the finder's matrix.
• 5:45
  Peter: And then from there, starting to understand the physiology of it, and how does the brain change when these things happen?
• 5:53
  Peter: So, I mean, that doesn't mean that answers the question about the wisdom of electronically modifying the brain.
• 5:59
  Peter: The point is that it's clear that the thing that we call fundamental wellbeing or persistent, non-symbolic experience is an experiential transition that happens when certain changes have happened in the brain.
• 6:14
  Peter: Um, according to Jeffrey.
• 6:15
  Ryan: Right.
• 6:16
  Peter: Now the question is if you can create these changes in the brains by any means, does it result in this experience of awakening?
• 6:23
  Peter: And, and I think that's the experiment.
• 6:26
  Peter: By having the helmet, I mean, obviously this is not an established technology.
• 6:30
  Peter: It's something they're putting out there, and marketing, and, recruiting people to use, and groups are getting together and "let's, let's try this out."
• 6:36
  Peter: So the difference between modifying the brain through traditional practices and modifying the brain through modern technology is, I guess a valid question?
• 6:47
  Peter: I mean, you have to make the assumption that, you know how this modern technology is changing the brain.
• 6:55
  Peter: Like, is it changing the brain in ways that, model awakening but also changing it in other ways that we don't know what the effect is?
• 7:03
  Peter: I think that's the concern.
• 7:04
  Ryan: Sure.
• 7:04
  Ryan: And I think that'd be a valid concern.
• 7:06
  Ryan: so caveat or disclaimer is, I haven't looked into any of these devices to know really anything about them, but my sense is that the effects are temporary, like while you're wearing them.
• 7:20
  Ryan: That may not be fully true.
• 7:23
  Ryan: cause I do think somebody had said they use it regularly and it seemed like they experience things when they're not wearing it.
• 7:31
  Ryan: So you had mentioned, how Jeffrey had teased wanting to have technology that can help transition masses of people without-
• 7:39
  Peter: mm-hmm
• 7:40
  Ryan: going through the work, I guess is what somebody might interpret it as.
• 7:44
  Peter: Yeah.
• 7:45
  Ryan: It would be interesting to know if, for example, like the helmet has been used on people who are not experiencing fundamental wellbeing, in a persistent way.
• 7:55
  Ryan: And if that does actually help them transition.
• 7:57
  Ryan: I don't know.
• 7:58
  Ryan: This conversation happened within a group of finders and they're using the technology, and so that's interesting in itself because my first instinct was, if people are using this, and we could discuss the ethics and value of sort of
• 8:15
  Ryan: circumventing the spiritual work to get there, but if this is being used to help transition people, to have those first awarenesses of what fundamental wellbeing is, that then helps them to kickstart the process, that I think has merit.
• 8:34
  Ryan: Then the question was, does somebody who is already experiencing persistent, non-symbolic experience, who is looking to deepen using these tools, what does that mean for their experience?
• 8:47
  Ryan: And then I think the implication is also, is it not ethical, but like, so
• 8:52
  Peter: Yeah, no, I, I
• 8:53
  Ryan: circumventing the spiritual work.
• 8:55
  Peter: I, I definitely wanna talk about this.
• 8:56
  Peter: So I have a friend who adheres to a traditional, framework.
• 9:01
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 9:01
  Peter: And that person, when I talk about the finder's work, is really appalled.
• 9:06
  Ryan: Yes.
• 9:06
  Peter: So, to your, to your point and, you know, "why would you wanna do things faster?"
• 9:10
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 9:11
  Peter: "That's terrible."
• 9:12
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 9:12
  Peter: The point being that, the finder's community is called the finder's community because it came out of Jeffrey's work.
• 9:20
  Peter: The basis of Jeffrey's work is explicitly to shortcut traditional-
• 9:26
  Ryan: mm-hmm
• 9:26
  Peter: paths to awakening.
• 9:27
  Peter: Because, the traditional, cultural teachings around enlightenment are, first of all, a lot of it is protected-
• 9:37
  Ryan: mm-hmm
• 9:37
  Peter: a privileged teaching.
• 9:40
  Peter: But by and large it's, "these things take a long time and only a very special few can accomplish this thing."
• 9:49
  Peter: That is the traditional cultural, cross-cultural teaching around fundamental wellbeing, or the the entry into fundamental wellbeing.
• 9:59
  Peter: Jeffrey's question, after he did the finders book, the initial research was, rather than just talking to people who've awakened, can we apply it prospectively and take people who have no experience of awakening and lead them into awakening by
• 10:14
  Peter: this protocol?
• 10:15
  Peter: And the big surprise, of that research was, "oh my gosh, more than half the people, like a high percentage of people who went through this protocol."
• 10:25
  Peter: Think it was in the
• 10:26
  Ryan: seventies?
• 10:26
  Peter: Yeah.
• 10:27
  Ryan: Like 70
• 10:28
  Peter: something percent.
• 10:28
  Peter: Yeah.
• 10:28
  Peter: I mean, they were absolutely shocked the first time they ran the protocol and people were awakening and, they, they verified this by a whole bunch of gold standard psychological metrics, which they had applied to the original.
• 10:43
  Peter: So the, the point is, the original research already, short circuits the traditional spiritual path.
• 10:50
  Peter: Now these are still using non-invasive, largely traditional methods.
• 10:56
  Peter: I say largely traditional methods because some of them are ancient, focus on the breath meditation.
• 11:02
  Peter: But some of them are things like, the Sedona method, which is, I don't know, 50 years old maybe.
• 11:09
  Peter: I mean, these are not traditional methods,
• 11:11
  Ryan: right
• 11:11
  Peter: these are new technologies that modern people, either pursuing awakening or experiencing awakening, and investigating "well how did I have this experience," come up with these new technologies of practice.
• 11:24
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 11:25
  Peter: Now they're still what you might call traditional practice methods in the sense that, it's just ways of intentionally focusing your mind.
• 11:34
  Peter: So really the difference that we're talking about now is that the technology has changed from direct your attention in this way, to put on this helmet and use this external technology to stimulate your brain.
• 11:49
  Peter: But when you direct your attention this way, you're stimulating your brain.
• 11:52
  Ryan: Right?
• 11:52
  Peter: And so they're just trying to stimulate your brain in that way.
• 11:57
  Peter: I don't see how someone could put on a helmet, with the intention of awakening, and not be directing their attention.
• 12:04
  Ryan: Sure.
• 12:04
  Peter: Right?
• 12:04
  Peter: So anyway, just to make the point, there's this, I guess, slippery slope of purism.
• 12:10
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 12:11
  Peter: So I used to be a bit of a purist with my meditation.
• 12:15
  Peter: It's like "I'm a Buddhist meditator, this is the way I'm doing it," da da da.
• 12:18
  Peter: And I wanted to look for original methodology, and stuff like that.
• 12:22
  Peter: Now I really don't care.
• 12:23
  Ryan: Right.
• 12:23
  Peter: You know, people hear me say all the time, I have this Buddhist framework 'cause that's what I'm familiar with, but I don't think that's the corner of the market.
• 12:31
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 12:32
  Peter: Like that's the way you do it.
• 12:33
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 12:33
  Peter: There's a gigantic toolbox of methods and I think, reasonably, now that we're opening the door to what I guess I would call the external technology, as opposed to this traditional direct your attention technology, there's concern.
• 12:52
  Peter: I guess it's valid.
• 12:53
  Peter: It's a valid concern.
• 12:54
  Peter: I, I, I question if it goes to the level of, "oh my God, we shouldn't be doing this.
• 13:00
  Ryan: Right.
• 13:00
  Peter: Or, well, you have to have a traditional path."
• 13:03
  Peter: And there's this decades of research now with finders, showing that you don't really need the traditional path.
• 13:10
  Peter: Except for what you get from the moral framework, which is not nothing, but also doesn't have to do directly with the experience of awakening.
• 13:19
  Ryan: Sure.
• 13:20
  Ryan: Lemme know what you think about this.
• 13:21
  Ryan: The typically locked down practices and pathway, which took a lot of time.
• 13:28
  Ryan: And I think of Jewish Kabbalah too, it was very, very locked down.
• 13:33
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 13:34
  Ryan: And only when you were able to achieve X were you allowed to even be exposed to Y.
• 13:41
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 13:41
  Ryan: Its intent was to ensure that by the time you got down the path, you were mentally and physically prepared for what happens.
• 13:50
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 13:50
  Ryan: So it's in a way, a protective mechanism.
• 13:53
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 13:53
  Ryan: However, it is very long and many people have expired before they could
• 13:58
  Peter: mm-hmm
• 13:59
  Ryan: get, you know, to, to the fruits of that labor.
• 14:02
  Ryan: And so enter, say Jeff's work, which now brings that general experience of fundamental wellbeing to the forefront and very early in the experience.
• 14:18
  Ryan: I know that, at least from what I understand from the course, there is a bunch of support, and certainly there's the community that helps support itself,
• 14:27
  Peter: mm-hmm
• 14:27
  Ryan: as far as those who are trying to grapple with this new experience, and not yet trained to understand it.
• 14:36
  Ryan: Right?
• 14:36
  Ryan: There can be cognitive dissonance around it.
• 14:39
  Peter: There's risk associated with it.
• 14:40
  Ryan: Yeah.
• 14:40
  Peter: Right.
• 14:41
  Peter: And it's part of the course is, signing in as a research subject, is a disclaimer and as you said, there's support basically saying, if you're having trouble, let us know so that we can help you."
• 14:53
  Ryan: Right.
• 14:54
  Peter: So there is risk associated with it.
• 14:57
  Peter: Just like if you take a medicine, you might be allergic, and you don't know until you take it.
• 15:01
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 15:01
  Peter: Some people might be susceptible to bad outcomes, which absolutely happen.
• 15:07
  Peter: I mean, even meditation, is not risk free.
• 15:10
  Peter: So the question is, and this is something that you and I have talked about for years and years is, what's your risk assessment?
• 15:18
  Peter: And what are the countermeasures that protect you from that risk?
• 15:22
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 15:23
  Peter: So, traditional paths have all come up with some kind of answer, and we have no idea really how valid those answers are, only that they've been in place for thousands of years, potentially.
• 15:35
  Peter: but, there's no research
• 15:36
  Ryan: of course,
• 15:36
  Peter: there's no numbers.
• 15:37
  Peter: It's just a traditional teaching that teachers, you know, concerned and responsible, came up with as a way to protect their students and followers and whatnot.
• 15:48
  Ryan: Well, and presumably nowadays our technology and support systems are more advanced to be able to accommodate something.
• 15:56
  Ryan: Now, I was gonna go back one more step, which was, okay so you have Jeffrey's work, which is a protocol, that you are participating in, has some level of support built into it.
• 16:08
  Ryan: And then if you move back to this helmet device, that somebody could pick up off the internet and just put on, with no support, that could be a problem.
• 16:18
  Ryan: Now, spontaneous awakening happens, right?
• 16:21
  Ryan: And oftentimes those people do struggle with it.
• 16:23
  Ryan: I think, at least presumably, somebody who goes out and buys the helmet, is somewhat familiar with the concept and is pursuing it.
• 16:32
  Peter: It'd be interesting to, to go to see what the website says.
• 16:35
  Peter: How, how the website warnings and disclaimers,
• 16:38
  Ryan: yeah.
• 16:38
  Peter: Work,
• 16:39
  Ryan: Yeah.
• 16:40
  Ryan: So that, I guess, is a legitimate, at least a legitimate point of discussion.
• 16:46
  Ryan: So there's the use of the device within somebody who's already familiar with the experience of fundamental wellbeing, who's using the device for deepening, versus somebody who is using it to transition.
• 17:00
  Ryan: But again, presuming if they're purchasing such a device, and I guess it does depend on the marketing, right?
• 17:07
  Ryan: If it's just marketed abstractly as making you happy, that might not adequately prepare somebody for what it could initiate, as far as the journey, and that oftentimes is dissonant to what we traditionally have been taught Reality is.
• 17:24
  Ryan: And I mean there are people who go through the course who, who understand it, but still struggle with how weird it is, air quotes, you know, and like, and, and really trying to grapple with it.
• 17:37
  Ryan: And even being skeptical of it, even though it is their experience.
• 17:41
  Ryan: But obviously there are lots of people out there who second guess what they're experiencing.
• 17:45
  Peter: I mean, that was my experience as we've talked about previously.
• 17:48
  Peter: I struggled a lot with progress, not because I was struggling to progress, but because I had progression and I was like, "no, I don't," you know?
• 17:59
  Peter: And I just couldn't believe that I was making progress.
• 18:02
  Peter: And then that's really, kind of what this conversation has become about is, sharing the okayness of this weirdly different experience.
• 18:13
  Peter: It's, but it's okay.
• 18:15
  Peter: It's, it's okay.
• 18:16
  Peter: It's safe.
• 18:16
  Peter: I mean, you have to be aware of certain things, but you know, it's okay that it's weird.
• 18:22
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 18:23
  Peter: you can trust the experience.
• 18:24
  Ryan: Yeah.
• 18:25
  Peter: The experience that says, yeah, this is all good.
• 18:28
  Peter: And then your mind comes and says, but it's weird, it's unnatural, I'm being deceived.
• 18:32
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 18:33
  Peter: I'm curious now about this product.
• 18:35
  Peter: You know, and so the original question on the chat that started this thing was supposing that this technology was required in order for the experience to be persistent.
• 18:51
  Ryan: Right?
• 18:51
  Ryan: Right.
• 18:51
  Peter: And, I would say, that if someone is using this with the intent of wearing it 24/7, so that they don't ever have to experience a break from, or loss of perception of, uh, fundamental wellbeing, that would sound inappropriate
• 19:08
  Peter: to me.
• 19:09
  Peter: In my experience and the experience of all of my colleagues, which with whom I have conversation, it is completely normal, to have an ebb and flow of the direct experience of fundamental wellbeing.
• 19:25
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 19:25
  Peter: So, and, and Jeffrey talks about this, a background foreground phenomenon.
• 19:29
  Peter: Now as you progress farther, you can get more and more persistence.
• 19:35
  Peter: You can get to the point where, there is no awareness of a negative experience.
• 19:40
  Peter: So I guess that's the question.
• 19:42
  Peter: Is that what the technology is supposed to do, right?
• 19:44
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 19:45
  Peter: I mean, the, the, so we had to have all this conversation up to this point for me to, that even to occur to me.
• 19:51
  Peter: Like, it did not occur to me to say, I could just spend $500 and slap this thing in my head and get to where I wanna be.
• 19:58
  Peter: That never occurred to me.
• 19:59
  Peter: Because why?
• 20:01
  Peter: I think because, for me, I accept this phenomenon of gradual improvement, and, this, this ebb and flow cycling of experience.
• 20:11
  Peter: And I know that I'm not losing at any point, fundamental being, it's just, I forget to turn my attention that way.
• 20:17
  Peter: Well, let's put it this way.
• 20:20
  Peter: If you've already transitioned, then it's persistent period.
• 20:22
  Peter: Full stop, end of story.
• 20:24
  Peter: You're not using this helmet to maintain it, you're just enhancing your experience.
• 20:29
  Ryan: Right.
• 20:29
  Ryan: And I
• 20:29
  Peter: think that is, but the writer says you're using it to maintain it, which is false unless.
• 20:34
  Peter: You're using the helmet transition transition, and then you're calling that a transition, which it's not
• 20:41
  Ryan: sure
• 20:41
  Peter: because it's only dependent on the continued use of the helmet.
• 20:45
  Ryan: Right.
• 20:45
  Peter: So, so then I think it's a question of marketing and the user's interpretation.
• 20:51
  Ryan: Hmm.
• 20:51
  Peter: I would be quite firmly against someone attempting awakening, in a vacuum, without any community, without any guidance.
• 20:59
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 20:59
  Peter: Now, we're not talking about someone going on a vision quest, in isolation, 'cause someone who does that is coming from a community and a tradition of that approach to awakening.
• 21:11
  Peter: If you are in a community, and you're sharing your experience, you're gonna get guidance.
• 21:17
  Peter: But if you are just off on your own, and you read a website, and then you did this and then you believed that you were awakened, and everything's fine, when you actually weren't, I could see that being a
• 21:28
  Peter: problem.
• 21:29
  Peter: But I think that's a extreme case, but maybe it's not.
• 21:31
  Ryan: I would say it's an extreme case and in a way I question if it's even possible because if you were only experiencing it while you were using the device.
• 21:40
  Ryan: When you were not using the device, I don't think you would think you were enlightened or experiencing awakening.
• 21:45
  Peter: Yeah.
• 21:45
  Ryan: Right.
• 21:46
  Ryan: And if you did, then it probably is persistent.
• 21:48
  Peter: Right?
• 21:49
  Peter: So the question seems to beg and, and you know, it's like now I feel like I'm making a big deal out of a question that someone casually threw out in a thread.
• 21:57
  Peter: Right?
• 21:57
  Ryan: Sure.
• 21:58
  Peter: They're not purporting to have, like, I've thought about this for a long time.
• 22:01
  Ryan: No.
• 22:01
  Ryan: And the point isn't specifically to respond to them.
• 22:06
  Peter: No, no.
• 22:06
  Ryan: It was interesting to me the question that came up, and I was interested to have us kind of think through exactly as we have.
• 22:14
  Ryan: And like what are, what are the implications of this, and what is the relation of such a device to traditional practices, and to the persistence and deepening.
• 22:25
  Ryan: And I mean, certainly somebody could say that practices in general are artificial.
• 22:32
  Ryan: I think that they are supportive and just the same.
• 22:36
  Ryan: I'm thinking that a device can be supportive.
• 22:41
  Ryan: The thing that comes to mind, and it's a really loose analogy, on the face of it, it makes sense, but it falls apart pretty quick.
• 22:49
  Ryan: But it is like the electrical muscle stimulation, to build muscle over exercising.
• 22:56
  Ryan: Right?
• 22:57
  Ryan: I think there's probably a lot of resistance, among the masses, to using the electrical stimulation to build muscle, even though it functionally does work because it's contracting it, it's repeatedly contracting the muscles, but it's doing so at a
• 23:14
  Ryan: high rate.
• 23:15
  Ryan: So you know, it physiologically acts the same as actively doing the exercise.
• 23:22
  Ryan: Now, if you stopped, so this is kind of where I'm actually interested in pursuing the analogy a little bit, which is, you stop using the electronic stimulation.
• 23:33
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 23:34
  Ryan: And the absence of exercise
• 23:35
  Peter: mm-hmm
• 23:35
  Ryan: your muscles are going to atrophy.
• 23:37
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 23:37
  Ryan: The same thing goes for exercise though, right?
• 23:39
  Ryan: You exercise and then you stop exercising.
• 23:43
  Peter: Oh, yes.
• 23:43
  Ryan: And your muscle's atrophy.
• 23:44
  Peter: Yep.
• 23:45
  Ryan: There's no, Adjacent persistent muscularity really, you know, like to some degree if you stop moving around right, you're gonna atrophy.
• 23:54
  Ryan: Where that's part of where the, the model breaks down as far as what we're talking about with persistence of, um, non-symbolic state, especially in the late later locations where there is more of this constant persistent state.
• 24:10
  Peter: Right.
• 24:10
  Ryan: However, how does that correlate with the more traditional person?
• 24:15
  Ryan: We use the exercises to continue to remind us to, to bring us into the state so that it stays in the forefront, not that it disappears, and is the electronic stimulation essentially the same thing?
• 24:29
  Ryan: I don't know.
• 24:30
  Peter: So speaking from my experience
• 24:33
  Ryan: mm-hmm.
• 24:33
  Peter: I think there's a relationship between my direct experience and the stimulus that I experience.
• 24:42
  Peter: Right?
• 24:42
  Peter: I don't think that fundamental wellbeing goes away.
• 24:47
  Peter: it's that I notice it less
• 24:49
  Ryan: mm-hmm
• 24:49
  Peter: because there are other stimuli that are distracting me from it.
• 24:53
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 24:53
  Peter: And then as soon as I receive appropriate stimulus, basically remembering to turn back towards fundamental being it's readily accessible.
• 25:04
  Ryan: Right.
• 25:04
  Peter: And so what, what am I saying?
• 25:07
  Peter: I mean, it's true that if I had a regular practice and spent more time in practice, I mean, it's basically appropriate stimulus.
• 25:17
  Ryan: Right.
• 25:19
  Peter: So the more time you send, the more time you spend in appropriate stimulus, or non-conditioned stimulus, the less you will see conditioned experience.
• 25:29
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 25:29
  Peter: It's interesting how much the stimulus of conditions can affect the quality of positivity of an experience.
• 25:40
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 25:40
  Peter: It is not a linear relationship though.
• 25:42
  Ryan: Yeah.
• 25:42
  Peter: Because there are time when you can be in extremely negative conditions
• 25:46
  Ryan: Yep.
• 25:47
  Peter: And have fundamental wellbeing arise.
• 25:48
  Ryan: Right.
• 25:49
  Peter: And that's totally non-linear.
• 25:52
  Peter: Right, right.
• 25:52
  Peter: Because I was just saying, well, the more time I spend in practice, which is, you know, stimulus conducive to fundamental wellbeing, I mean that's basically just saying the more time, the more time I have nice things, the better
• 26:03
  Peter: I feel and the more time I have bad things.
• 26:05
  Peter: That's just regular conventional experience.
• 26:08
  Peter: Yeah.
• 26:08
  Peter: Right.
• 26:08
  Peter: Which is not really what I'm talking about.
• 26:10
  Peter: Right.
• 26:10
  Peter: It sounds like it.
• 26:11
  Peter: There's this other aspect of fundamental being, which is this, this uncontrolled spontaneity where you can't predict what it's gonna do.
• 26:21
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 26:22
  Peter: And so it, just to clarify, I had a fairly horrific car, car crash.
• 26:28
  Peter: It was terrifying.
• 26:29
  Ryan: It was bad.
• 26:29
  Peter: We got out with broken bones, nothing too major.
• 26:32
  Peter: But my experience of the event was, within a couple of hours of the crash, I was quite happy.
• 26:41
  Peter: And for the next few days I was just quite, I was in the hospital.
• 26:45
  Peter: I was getting, you know, poked and treated and whatnot, but the staff was commenting like, well, how come you're not miserable?
• 26:55
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 26:55
  Peter: Basically, you know, people have that kind of crash, they're not happy.
• 26:58
  Peter: And I was like, yeah, I'm okay.
• 27:00
  Peter: The weird thing for me, was that did not persist.
• 27:04
  Peter: And which was a problem for me, because it led me to believe that I was okay, and I wasn't gonna have any negative effects, other than a broken bone, which was actually not causing me pain.
• 27:15
  Peter: In the weeks afterwards, I went through a lot of difficulty, for a variety of reasons.
• 27:22
  Peter: It was complicated events even after that.
• 27:25
  Peter: Of course, you know, dealing with just the logistics after totaling a car is not fun.
• 27:32
  Peter: Dealing with just being in the hospital and then leaving the hospital and blah, blah, blah.
• 27:37
  Peter: Like all those kinds of just task things are not fun.
• 27:41
  Peter: But it wasn't that, like, there was, there was a real loss of equilibrium for me that came, that was delayed.
• 27:49
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 27:49
  Peter: But in the week after the crash, everything was fine.
• 27:54
  Peter: So that was just a very strange thing.
• 27:56
  Peter: I think I over interpreted it, which is why I wanna share it.
• 28:00
  Peter: Because if you're in fundamental wellbeing, and you have this, it doesn't mean you're okay.
• 28:04
  Peter: Like, your system still needs care.
• 28:07
  Ryan: Right.
• 28:07
  Peter: Your system, even if you're physically okay, your system is most likely traumatized by this traumatic event.
• 28:16
  Peter: And that's something that I didn't recognize.
• 28:17
  Ryan: Right.
• 28:18
  Peter: And so coming out, I wasn't prepared and I had a very rough time, in a, in a number of ways.
• 28:23
  Peter: And then, you know, and then I got my equilibrium back.
• 28:27
  Peter: But anyway, what was the point?
• 28:28
  Peter: Oh, the, the point was just that, positive conditions support fundamental wellbeing.
• 28:35
  Peter: But there's not a direct correlation, it's this non-conventional phenomenon.
• 28:39
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 28:39
  Peter: And of course, the research shows that people can have extremely adverse conditions.
• 28:46
  Peter: Jeffrey talks about people living in poverty, with severe medical issues and their in fundamental wellbeing.
• 28:52
  Ryan: Right?
• 28:52
  Peter: And they're like, yeah, I, I don't need to change anything.
• 28:55
  Peter: And he is like, no, let's get you off the street.
• 28:57
  Peter: You know?
• 28:58
  Peter: Which is one of the caveats he has in his course.
• 29:01
  Peter: He's like, I don't want be responsible for you losing your job and being on the street and being really happy just 'cause you got into fundamental wellbeing, and you no longer fit into conventional, life tasks and things like
• 29:14
  Peter: that.
• 29:15
  Peter: Its a non-zero-
• 29:16
  Ryan: risk
• 29:17
  Peter: risk.
• 29:17
  Peter: It's not common.
• 29:19
  Peter: But it is something that he's, he's like, I've seen enough that I'm genuinely concerned about it.
• 29:22
  Peter: And so that's, he's designed the course.
• 29:25
  Peter: Now, the question I have that I really wanna look into now that we've talked about this stuff.
• 29:29
  Peter: Is, you know, we've talked about how the technology has advanced and, and specifically Jeffrey's coursework has advanced.
• 29:36
  Peter: Now that course is free,
• 29:39
  Ryan: mm-hmm
• 29:39
  Peter: and I believe also unguided.
• 29:43
  Peter: And if it's not that course, then there is another course that is, independent study, and was recommended to me as, as free independent study.
• 29:52
  Peter: It's like you can just do it.
• 29:54
  Peter: So if someone wants to transition, there are these methods.
• 30:00
  Peter: But now having had our conversation, I'm like, yes, but that's without support.
• 30:05
  Ryan: Right.
• 30:06
  Ryan: And you had said there was no direct, facilitator in your course, but you guys had group work
• 30:12
  Peter: Yes.
• 30:12
  Ryan: Outside, like you self coordinated group work.
• 30:15
  Peter: Yeah.
• 30:15
  Peter: There were assigned peer groups.
• 30:17
  Peter: Yeah.
• 30:17
  Peter: And even if there were not assigned mentors, there were contacts.
• 30:22
  Peter: Like, let us know if you run into any of these things, or if you have any concerns.
• 30:26
  Ryan: I guess we're digressing a little bit here.
• 30:28
  Ryan: The point I wanted to make was, I wouldn't want somebody, who's working through that initial transition, to fall on something like the POK finders group, as their support.
• 30:42
  Ryan: Because I think there's some people who are not prepared to be a-
• 30:46
  Peter: Oh true
• 30:46
  Ryan: a healthy support-
• 30:47
  Peter: true
• 30:48
  Ryan: model.
• 30:49
  Peter: True, true, true.
• 30:50
  Ryan: You know?
• 30:51
  Peter: Yeah.
• 30:51
  Ryan: So I don't know how they would manage to, I mean, it must, I guess, be similar that there's mentors or contacts that you can reach out to.
• 31:00
  Peter: I mean, this is an interesting topic because it's a community of finders.
• 31:05
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 31:05
  Peter: Literally by definition.
• 31:06
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 31:07
  Peter: Which, you might think is analogous to a traditional faith community of say, monks or something, who have had a certain amount of attainment or whatever.
• 31:18
  Peter: But, because of modern technology, these are virtual communities, there's no direct contact.
• 31:25
  Peter: In a traditional community, presumably there's a responsible teacher who's like, "uh oh, that guy's in trouble."
• 31:31
  Ryan: Well, I think that those traditional models, part of the benefit is that number one, the pathway is more aligned.
• 31:38
  Peter: Mm.
• 31:38
  Ryan: The experience is likely more aligned.
• 31:40
  Ryan: Part of what Jeffrey's work discovered, was the variety and diversity of the experience itself.
• 31:47
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 31:47
  Ryan: To the point where often two people, who are experiencing fundamental wellbeing, can perceive the other as not experiencing...
• 31:55
  Ryan: like it doesn't look the same.
• 31:57
  Peter: Mm-hmm.
• 31:57
  Ryan: So, therefore, the rigidity of that dogma becomes a point where it's like," no, that's not what it is."
• 32:05
  Peter: Well, so I would say, so, so what you just said contradicts my experience, but let me just put the context.
• 32:11
  Peter: Two people experiencing it from different traditions.
• 32:15
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 32:16
  Peter: One person's on Path A and one person's on path B, they're both somewhere on the continuum,
• 32:21
  Ryan: mm-hmm
• 32:22
  Peter: but they don't recognize it in each other, through the lens of their path.
• 32:26
  Ryan: Correct.
• 32:26
  Peter: That's if they are being dogmatic.
• 32:28
  Ryan: Yes.
• 32:29
  Peter: In my experience, if they are not being dogmatic, and they are viewing the other from their awakening, they will clearly see that the other person's awakening.
• 32:40
  Peter: Does that make sense?
• 32:41
  Ryan: It makes sense, yeah.
• 32:42
  Peter: Some specifically, if you are locked into this framework,
• 32:47
  Ryan: right
• 32:48
  Peter: then you're gonna misinterpret,
• 32:50
  Ryan: right?
• 32:50
  Peter: Yes.
• 32:51
  Peter: Becau, Because by and large, each framework traditionally looks at the other framework and says "That's wrong."
• 32:56
  Ryan: Exactly.
• 32:59
  Ryan: Exactly.
• 33:00
  Ryan: I think I agree with you, and that's part of the benefit of where Jeffrey's work comes into play, is coming to it from a non-dogmatic, open perspective.
• 33:10
  Ryan: And I think that that's where a lot of awakening experience is happening, in modern day.
• 33:15
  Ryan: You know, it's not the way it used to be where it's, the more traditional paths.
• 33:19
  Ryan: Not that they are non-existent, but...
• 33:21
  Peter: so this is the cost benefit or the double-edged sword of modern context.
• 33:26
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 33:27
  Peter: Which is, there's so much more access, to awakening traditions and technologies.
• 33:35
  Peter: I mean, I'm saying technologies, and I don't mean electronic devices.
• 33:38
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 33:38
  Peter: I mean
• 33:38
  Ryan: practices and
• 33:39
  Peter: practices and methods.
• 33:40
  Peter: Yeah.
• 33:41
  Peter: Either traditional or non-traditional.
• 33:44
  Peter: Basically almost infinite access, but there's not commensurate access to guides.
• 33:50
  Ryan: Mm-hmm.
• 33:51
  Peter: And, and I, I think that's really the beginning of this whole conversation.
• 33:54
  Ryan: Yeah.
• 33:55
  Peter: I think that's really why the question comes up, is because of the lack of context.
• 34:01
  Peter: I mean, that's the thing that supports all the traditional paths.
• 34:05
  Ryan: Yeah.
• 34:05
  Peter: If I had my experience without context, I don't know where I'd be.
• 34:10
  Peter: And so, now that these things are being made free, and just publicly available, I have questions.
• 34:20
  Peter: And, yeah, there's definitely concern, because these experiences are not completely risk free.
• 34:29
  Peter: And largely because they contradict our society, Right?
• 34:34
  Peter: Not because they're inherently risky, but because everyone comes to them from a society.
• 34:40
  Ryan: Yep.
• 34:40
  Peter: And if you're coming to them from a society that does not support these experiences, then you're gonna have trouble.
• 34:47
  Ryan: Yeah.
• 34:47
  Peter: Yeah,
• 34:48
  Ryan: Well, a little bit of a somber end there, but I, I enjoyed kind of exploring that.
• 34:53
  Ryan: I read that thread, you know, last week or whatever it was, and, and I thought it would be an interesting thing for us to talk about and actually took some directions I didn't expect us to go through.
• 35:03
  Ryan: So that was interesting.
• 35:04
  Peter: Thanks for bringing that.
• 35:04
  Ryan: Hopefully y'all enjoyed it and you can share your own experiences or, or thoughts on this topic, and we'll talk to you guys next time.
• 35:12
  Ryan: Bye
• 35:12
  Peter: bye now.
• 35:15
  Peter: Thank you for listening to the Tracking Wisdom podcast.
• 35:18
  Peter: Join us next time as we continue the discussion.
• 35:20
  Peter: Don't forget to follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube, and visit www.eth-studio.com for more information and content