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Bank Series Recap: What Every Banker Told Me (And What It Means for You) · Budget Your Business

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the Budget Your Business Podcast, where small business owners go to learn how to financially plan for every aspect of their business.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: Let's get started with your host, Scott Geller.
• 0:11
  Scott: Hello, Scott Geller here.
• 0:13
  Scott: And we started something new on Budget Your Business a few months back by running a series of guests around one dedicated topic.
• 0:22
  Scott: That was banking.
• 0:24
  Scott: We started back on November 27th, and every other episode brought in a guest from a different type of bank.
• 0:34
  Scott: Now, we've gone a few months later.
• 0:37
  Scott: I've talked to community banks, regional banks, a CDFI, and even brought in a regulatory perspective.
• 0:47
  Scott: Instead of walking back through each episode one by one, I want to do something that's hopefully a little more useful.
• 0:55
  Scott: I want to tell you exactly what I heard across all of them.
• 0:59
  Scott: So today's show is going to wrap up this series, and I'm going to summarize.
• 1:15
  Scott: So every banker essentially is solving for the same thing.
• 1:20
  Scott: They may do it differently, but they're all solving for the same thing.
• 1:24
  Scott: And every person I talk to, no matter the size of the bank, was solving for one thing.
• 1:30
  Scott: And that is risk.
• 1:34
  Scott: They describe it differently.
• 1:36
  Scott: The community banker calls it a partnership.
• 1:39
  Scott: A regional banker might call it structure and reporting.
• 1:42
  Scott: A CDFI might call it support and flexibility.
• 1:46
  Scott: From a regulatory perspective, it's literally their job to manage the system-wide risk across all banks.
• 1:55
  Scott: All banks are focused around one key concept, and that is risk, and how your organization fits into their risk appetite.
• 2:07
  Scott: Every banker that I was talking to was trying to answer one question Will this company pay me back?
• 2:16
  Scott: The biggest difference is not the actual bank a lot of times, it's just how and where they operate.
• 2:24
  Scott: For example, community banks.
• 2:26
  Scott: They're relationship-driven, they can be a little more flexible, they can get a bit creative when they work with businesses.
• 2:35
  Scott: They typically have a geographic border.
• 2:39
  Scott: And a really good quote from Matt Pachoco of New Horizon Bank in the February 5th episode was they can play outside the box.
• 2:51
  Scott: They can work to make deals work for the for the business.
• 2:56
  Scott: On the regional bank side, they are a little more structured.
• 2:59
  Scott: At the same time, they have more resources, they have a few more rules, but they're also built to grow with you.
• 3:08
  Scott: A great example from Joe Ford at Wind Trust, we had him on, he was one of our first on November 27th.
• 3:17
  Scott: He walked us through an example of how they were able to take a client when they joined Wind Trust, they're at about a 4 million credit facility, meaning Windrust gave them$4 million of credit, and they helped them scale to a$20 million credit facility.
• 3:36
  Scott: That's a huge difference, and that's a big number for a bank:$20 million.
• 3:40
  Scott: On the CDFI side, they have they actually have a higher risk tolerance while they also focus on underserved businesses.
• 3:50
  Scott: They will step in when others might or will say no.
• 3:55
  Scott: They work in geographic, economic, and and many other areas that banks just won't work in.
• 4:03
  Scott: However, at the same time, they don't always operate independently, like some banks prefer to.
• 4:09
  Scott: They're going to work with other banks.
• 4:11
  Scott: So they may not be able to offer the full credit requirement or need from a client, but they can provide some of it.
• 4:18
  Scott: And then they can bring in other banks that can help as well.
• 4:22
  Scott: So a key idea, we had Leah Freemauer on on uh, and the key idea from her is that CDFIs they exist specifically to fill in the gaps that individual banks won't.
• 4:40
  Scott: One of the categories that I was not able to talk to are large banks, and not for a lack of trying.
• 4:47
  Scott: I reached out to a couple, but the larger banks, and I mean use the Bank of America's, the Wells Wells Fargo's of the world, they have a bit more stricter policy around public speaking options.
• 5:03
  Scott: At the same time, I didn't want to ignore this area.
• 5:08
  Scott: Therefore, we are trying something new on budget yard business in this episode, and we're gonna give you a simulated perspective of an interview with a banker from a large banking organization, or sometimes known as an LBO.
• 5:28
  Scott: In order to do this, I leveraged ChatGPT.
• 5:33
  Scott: So I went through some of the questions that I've asked other bankers that we had on the show and asked ChatGP, gave them a persona of a large banker, commercial banker, with a few other parameters, and had ChatGPT give answers as a large banker.
• 5:52
  Scott: Then use the tool to text a voice, and we're gonna feed those answers into our show today.
• 5:58
  Scott: It's a little different, might come across a little funky, but I want to make sure everybody realizes this is not a real person.
• 6:05
  Scott: This is ChatGPT, and then we threw a voice around it.
• 6:09
  Scott: This is our interview with our ChatGPT LBO banker.
• 6:15
  Scott: Who is a perfect type of business for a large bank?
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_03: So this is where I think a lot of business owners get tripped up.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_03: Because the answer isn't just a profitable company.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_03: It's a company that's predictable.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_03: When we look at a business inside a large bank, what we're really asking is, how confident are we that this business will perform the same way 12 to 24 months from now?
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_03: So the ideal client for us is one with consistent cash flow, not a lot of volatility, not a lot of surprises.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_03: We like diversified customers, we like recurring or repeat revenue, and we really pay attention to whether the business is dependent on one or two key people.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_03: Because if the whole thing hinges on the owner, that's harder for us to underwrite.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_03: The other big piece is financial visibility.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_03: Do you have clean financials?
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_03: Do you have a forecast?
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_03: Can you explain your numbers clearly?
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_03: Because internally, I'm not just evaluating you.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_03: I'm explaining your business to a credit committee that's never met you.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_03: And then probably the biggest thing, we're not built to take big swings.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_03: We're built to make repeatable, scalable decisions.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_03: So if your story requires everything to go right, or it's based on aggressive growth, or a big pivot, that's where it starts to fall outside of our comfort zone.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_03: So if I had to simplify it, the perfect client for a large bank is a business that's stable, predictable, well documented, and honestly, a little bit boring.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean that in the best possible way.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: Understood, that makes sense.
• 8:02
  Scott: Let's go in a little bit different direction.
• 8:04
  Scott: Why do good businesses get turned down from banks?
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, this one comes up all the time.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_03: And I get why it's frustrating.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_03: Because from the business owner's perspective, they're thinking, I'm profitable, I'm growing.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_03: How is this a no?
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_03: But from the bank's perspective, we're not actually saying the business is bad.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_03: We're saying it doesn't fit our risk model.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_03: Most of the time, deals don't get declined because of performance.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_03: They get declined because of volatility.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_03: So maybe revenue is growing, but it's inconsistent month to month.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_03: Or cash flow looks good annually.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_03: But timing is tight and there's not much cushion.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_03: Another big one is customer concentration.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_03: If 40, 50, 60% of your revenue is tied to one client, that's a real risk for us.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_03: Because if that relationship changes, the whole business changes.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_03: We also see a lot of situations where the story makes sense.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_03: But the financials don't fully support it yet.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_03: So the business might be on the right trajectory.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_03: But we're being asked to underwrite where it's going, not where it is today.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_03: And large banks just aren't built to do that consistently.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_03: And then I'd say the last one, and this one's more subtle, is lack of clarity.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_03: If I can't clearly explain your business, your model, and your numbers internally, it's really hard for me to get a deal approved.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_03: So if I had to summarize it, good businesses get turned down not because they're bad, but because they're too unpredictable, too concentrated, or too early for the type of capital they're asking for.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes it's just the wrong bank for where they are.
• 9:50
  Scott: Then maybe you can help us understand what types of businesses work best for large or LBO banks.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_03: So when you look at large banks, we tend to gravitate toward certain types of businesses.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_03: And it really comes down to stability and visibility.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_03: Industries that work really well for us are ones where the revenue model is easier to understand and historically more consistent.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_03: So things like professional services firms, established healthcare services, distribution companies, and mature manufacturing businesses, those tend to fit very well.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_03: We also like businesses that have repeat or contracted revenue.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't have to be true SaaS.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_03: But anything where there's a level of predictability, long-term customers, recurring projects, ongoing relationships, that makes underwriting much more straightforward.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, another big factor is scale and infrastructure.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_03: Businesses that have a real finance function, clean reporting, maybe a controller or CFO in place.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_03: Those tend to operate in a way that aligns with how we make decisions.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_03: Where it gets tougher for us is businesses that are highly cyclical, project-based, with big swings, or heavily dependent on one or two key customers or contracts.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I'd also say early stage or we're about to take off type businesses.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_03: Those are usually a better fit for other types of capital.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_03: Because large banks aren't built to underwrite potential.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_03: We're built to underwrite performance.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_03: So if I had to simplify it, the businesses that work best for large banks are ones that are proven, predictable, and structured in a way that we can consistently evaluate risk.
• 11:42
  Scott: If those are the businesses that work best for large banks, is there a point where a big bank makes more sense or maybe even becomes required for a business?
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, there usually is a point.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_03: And it's less about a specific revenue number and more about complexity.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_03: As a business grows, things start to change.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_03: You're not just dealing with revenue and expenses anymore.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_03: Now you've got multiple entities, larger credit needs, maybe different locations, more sophisticated cash management, and that's where a larger bank can start to add real value.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_03: A big bank brings infrastructure.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_03: So things like treasury management, international capabilities, larger lending capacity, more specialized products, those become important as the business scales.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_03: There's also a point where it becomes less optional and more necessary.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_03: If your borrowing needs start getting into, call it the$20,$30 million,$50 million range and above, or your structure gets more complex, you may simply outgrow what a smaller or community bank can comfortably provide.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_03: And it's not that your old bank did anything wrong, it's just that their box has limits.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_03: Now, that said, moving to a larger bank doesn't mean you replace every relationship.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of businesses keep multiple banking relationships and use different banks for different purposes.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_03: So if I had to simplify it, you start looking at a larger bank when your business becomes more complex.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_03: Your capital needs increase, and you need more infrastructure than just a loan and a deposit account.
• 13:23
  Scott: So maybe you can expand on that a little bit and explain why a large bank like Bank of America or maybe Wells Fargo is the right choice for some businesses.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_03: And I think this is important because large banks get a bad reputation sometimes.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_03: But there's a reason businesses move to us.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_03: At a certain point, it comes down to scale and capability.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_03: A large bank is built to support businesses that are growing quickly, operating in multiple markets, or just becoming more complex.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_03: So we bring things like larger lending capacity, more sophisticated treasury and cash management, and access to a wider range of financial products.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_03: For example, if you're managing payroll across multiple states, or dealing with large volumes of transactions, or even starting to operate internationally, you need infrastructure that can handle that.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_03: And that's where a large bank really stands out.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_03: The other big advantage is consistency and process.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_03: Now, that can feel rigid at times, but what it means is we can deliver repeatable, scalable solutions and support you as you grow.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_03: We also have specialized teams.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_03: So instead of one person trying to do everything, you've got experts in treasury, credit, industry verticals, all supporting different parts of your business.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_03: And then I'd say the last piece is access to capital over time.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_03: As your needs grow, we're structured to grow with you, without having to completely change banks again.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_03: You see, a large bank is the right fit when your business needs scale, infrastructure, and long-term capacity, not just a relationship, but a platform that can support where you are going.
• 15:15
  Scott: And we try to wrap up all of each of these episodes with a banker with one final question.
• 15:21
  Scott: And that is, why should a business select a big bank?
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_03: Well, that's a good question, and one businesses should consider.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_03: Because at a certain point, it really comes down to what your business needs to support its next stage of growth.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_03: A big bank is the right choice when you need more than just a loan and a checking account.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_03: We're built to provide infrastructure at scale.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_03: So if your business is growing, adding locations, managing larger cash flows, or dealing with more complexity, we have the systems and the teams to support that.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_03: Another big reason is access to capital.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_03: As your needs increase, whether that's larger credit facilities, more sophisticated structures, a large bank has the balance sheet to grow with you.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_03: And then there's specialization.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_03: You're not relying on one person to do everything.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_03: You've got dedicated teams for treasury, credit, and often even your specific industry.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_03: So instead of just having a banker, you're plugged into a platform.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_03: So if I had to simplify it, a business should select a big bank when it needs scale, consistency, and the ability to support growth without outgrowing its banking partner.
• 16:39
  Scott: Thanks for indulging me with my I AI and Chat GPT fake interview with a big banker.
• 16:49
  Scott: I appreciate that.
• 16:50
  Scott: Something new.
• 16:51
  Scott: Hopefully it came didn't come across too odd.
• 16:54
  Scott: Well, let's move on.
• 16:56
  Scott: And I want to talk about a key theme that every banker says something about.
• 17:03
  Scott: So every banker said the same thing about relationships.
• 17:08
  Scott: This came up again over and over, and I don't think businesses realize it enough.
• 17:14
  Scott: You should have a relationship with your banker.
• 17:18
  Scott: Your banker should not be reactive.
• 17:21
  Scott: Your banker should anticipate your needs.
• 17:25
  Scott: And Damian McIntosh in the episode on March 19th really walks through that really well and provides some great perspective across why you should have a really good relationship with your bank.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: Again, across all the interviews, the community banker.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: His response was call me anytime.
• 17:49
  Scott: The CDFI with Leah.
• 17:53
  Scott: Her response was, we're in it when you with you when things go wrong.
• 17:58
  Scott: The regional banks.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: His response was we want ongoing dialogue.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: If your banker only shows up when you need it, you don't have a banker, you have a transaction.
• 18:15
  Scott: Find a banker that is willing to work with you and help your business.
• 18:21
  Scott: A few areas and misconceptions where business owners get it wrong, and try to be a little blunt with this one because this came through loud and clear.
• 18:31
  Scott: So let's talk about misconception number one.
• 18:34
  Scott: So, misconception about bankers, banks, is an owner thinks if I'm profitable, I should get a loan.
• 18:43
  Scott: Reality is that banks care about profitability, they also care about predictability.
• 18:51
  Scott: Cash flow timing, structure, and risk actually matter more sometimes than the profitability.
• 18:59
  Scott: Misconception number two for banks is that the relationship will carry the deal.
• 19:06
  Scott: The relationship is important, but at the end of the day, while the banker might be fighting for you, the bank has the final decision.
• 19:15
  Scott: So the relationship helped, but don't it's not going to override the risk in your bank.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: Or it's not going to override the risk in your business, rather.
• 19:26
  Scott: Misconception number three the bank understands my business.
• 19:32
  Scott: Do not assume the bank understands your business.
• 19:35
  Scott: The reality is that you have to teach the banker your business.
• 19:38
  Scott: You have to teach them and help them understand what your business does and why it's different.
• 19:45
  Scott: Because they're translating your story internally to other people that are one step removed.
• 19:52
  Scott: Think about the telephone game back in the day.
• 19:54
  Scott: For those that remember the telephone game, you tell one person, they tell another, they tell another.
• 19:59
  Scott: By the time you get three, four people down the road, it's a completely different story.
• 20:04
  Scott: So imagine if your banker doesn't know your business up front, of course it's going to come out different at the end of the day or at the end of the road.
• 20:14
  Scott: Your lender is telling your story to someone else whose job is to poke holes in it.
• 20:21
  Scott: So make sure your business your banker understands your business.
• 20:25
  Scott: Misconception number four is that the bank has all the power.
• 20:29
  Scott: The reality is banks need your business just as much as you need them.
• 20:36
  Scott: Damien McIntosh has a has a point to really evaluate your bank.
• 20:42
  Scott: And the he walks through a really interesting and intriguing process where he walks through that how how and exactly what you should do to evaluate your bank.
• 20:54
  Scott: And it's not just if you like your banker or they have a they have a branch down the road.
• 20:59
  Scott: That's not the most important pieces.
• 21:01
  Scott: He he really digs into the financial performance of the bank and how you can figure that out.
• 21:08
  Scott: So let's talk about what actually gets a deal done.
• 21:12
  Scott: And this again was incredibly consistent across every conversation.
• 21:16
  Scott: Now I'm gonna go through a few really three or four really key pieces here.
• 21:22
  Scott: Number one, and I love this one, know your numbers.
• 21:27
  Scott: Not perfectly, but clearly.
• 21:30
  Scott: Cash flow is at the end of the day, is more important than the story you're telling.
• 21:34
  Scott: You want to tell the story, but you have to have the financials and the cash flow around it.
• 21:38
  Scott: So, number one, know your numbers.
• 21:41
  Scott: Number two, have a plan, even if it's a simple one.
• 21:46
  Scott: Have a plan.
• 21:47
  Scott: Growth path matters.
• 21:50
  Scott: Banks need to see where you are going, they need to feel comfortable that you know where you're going.
• 21:57
  Scott: Number three, match the right.
• 22:00
  Scott: Bank to your stage.
• 22:01
  Scott: And this is really a big one.
• 22:03
  Scott: Think about in the early stages, maybe.
• 22:05
  Scott: Maybe things are a little bit messy.
• 22:07
  Scott: Perhaps a CDFI or a flexible lender might work better for you.
• 22:13
  Scott: If you're growing, a community bank or regional bank might be better for you.
• 22:18
  Scott: That way they can grow with you.
• 22:19
  Scott: They can help help you achieve that next level in the in the bank in the business that you want.
• 22:26
  Scott: If you're scaling and rather complex, especially if you're international, that's where maybe a larger bank comes into play.
• 22:35
  Scott: Number four is be proactive.
• 22:39
  Scott: The best borrowers don't show up when they need money, they build a relationship before they need it.
• 22:46
  Scott: And I that came across from the bankers, and I fully agree with that.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: The best borrowers, the best businesses have credit on hand before they need it.
• 23:01
  Scott: So just to recap here, I want to make sure we're on the same page with these is that what gets a deal done, know your numbers, have a plan, match the right bank to the stage of your business, and be proactive.
• 23:18
  Scott: One thing that really ties it together, and I feel like this the simplest way I can explain everything that I heard is the goal is not to find a bank.
• 23:31
  Scott: The goal is to find the right bank for where you are today.
• 23:36
  Scott: So let me restate that.
• 23:40
  Scott: The goal for you should be finding the right bank with the right banker for the stage of business you're in today.
• 23:50
  Scott: Find the banker who can and will help you succeed.
• 23:54
  Scott: And that might change as the business grows.
• 23:57
  Scott: It might change as the business changes.
• 24:00
  Scott: Your banker that you started with five, ten, maybe twenty years ago may not be the banker that's best for you today.
• 24:10
  Scott: So while you've generated that relationship with a bank and the banker, it's okay to find a new one.
• 24:15
  Scott: It's okay to have multiple bankers.
• 24:17
  Scott: But find the right banker.
• 24:20
  Scott: Hopefully, this series helped you understand how banks operate, how to find the right bank, how to find the right banker, what to think about when you're looking for a banker, and what to do after you're with one.
• 24:37
  Scott: As always, with all shows, we like to wrap up with one to three takeaways.
• 24:41
  Scott: And today's takeaways are going to be around finding a banker and working with a banker.
• 24:46
  Scott: The first takeaway is that bankers should anticipate your needs.
• 24:51
  Scott: The second is that you can get quicker and better access to credit with good numbers and a solid plan.
• 24:59
  Scott: And the third is to find a bank and a banker who can and will help you succeed.
• 25:07
  Scott: I like to share a book since we're in the banking thing.
• 25:11
  Scott: It's going to be a banking, a book around kind of a banking-related.
• 25:16
  Scott: And that is The Man Who Knew by Sebastian Malaby.
• 25:21
  Scott: And that is a biography on Alan Greenspan.
• 25:24
  Scott: And I was a bank examiner with the Federal Reserve while he was the chair.
• 25:28
  Scott: So technically, I kind of worked for him.
• 25:32
  Scott: I did see him during a Christmas speech he gave, or holiday speech rather, that he gave.
• 25:40
  Scott: And I thought this was an interesting book.
• 25:42
  Scott: So it's The Man Who Knew by Sebastian Mallaby.
• 25:45
  Scott: It's about Alan Greenspan.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for being patient with me with this series idea.
• 25:55
  Scott: You know what I'd really like to know is what you thought.
• 25:57
  Scott: Was it good, bad, indifferent?
• 26:00
  Scott: Would you like to hear more like this of a series of specific uh experts of experts in a specific area?
• 26:07
  Scott: I'd love to get your feedback.
• 26:09
  Scott: Shoot me a note at Scott.geller at capitalistadvisors.com.
• 26:15
  Scott: It's in the show notes, it's in the podcast description, and send me some feedback.
• 26:20
  Scott: Let me know what you thought about this series.
• 26:22
  Scott: I can do others in the future.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for listening.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_02: If you like the show or found something useful, text someone right now and say, I have a podcast recommendation to check out, budget your business.
• 26:35
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• 26:43
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for listening, and we hope you join us for our next guest on Budget Your Business.