Latest / All Figured Out with Andrea Barr: Figuring Out Work, Life and Parenting / 97. What's "too mature" for kids these days?! with Rachelle Bergstein

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97. What's "too mature" for kids these days?! with Rachelle Bergstein · All Figured Out with Andrea Barr: Figuring Out Work, Life and Parenting

0:00
Welcome back to the All Figured Out Podcast.
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Thanks for joining me this week. We have such a different,
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unique, fun, awesome conversation today with my new
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friend Rachelle Bergstein. She is a lifestyle writer, best
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selling author and editor focused on style, pop culture
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and families. Her work has appeared in the New
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York Post, the New York Times, NPR and more.
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She's just all over there. She is such a high level writer
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and just wonderful human being. And she's also the author of
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three books, Women from the Ankle Down, a book about shoes,
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brilliance and Fire, which is a book about diamonds, and her
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latest book, which is The Genius of Judy, which has been out for
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almost a year. And the paperback has just come
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out this month in May. She lives with her husband and
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her nine year old son in Brooklyn, NY.
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And it was just such a pleasure to get to chat with her today.
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We talked all about, we talked about all sorts of things.
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She's got some fun tips for how she makes it all work with
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having her son and being a full time working mom.
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We talk about her love of writing and books.
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And then the crux of her conversation is about her
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writing this really niche book, the the book that she wrote
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about Judy Blume, which is called The Genius of Judy.
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And we just talked all about how interesting it was that Judy
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Blume wrote such pivotal books and such ahead of their time,
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books about topics to do with sexuality and just growing up
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and being a woman or being a human being.
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And she just shares so much about, you know, the brilliant
1:34
writing that's there, but also the importance of letting kids
1:37
just read, letting them read for fun, letting them read what they
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enjoy and how you kind of have to decide.
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Like, you know, some people might shy away from allowing
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their kids to read books that explore their topics of
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sexuality, but they're going to learn it somewhere.
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And so she has a really interesting view and take on
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that and how kids can learn from books.
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So I won't spoil anymore. I feel like I'm giving it all
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away. But without further ado, enjoy
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this episode with Rochelle 16. You're listening to the All
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Figured Out podcast. I'm your host, Andrea Barr.
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I'm a career coach for parents, mom of two, and a
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self-proclaimed expert at winging it.
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After 10 years in the corporate world, two major career pivots,
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and navigating life with kids, I've learned one thing.
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No parent has it all figured out, and that's OK.
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Here, we're all about growing personally and professionally
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while keeping family time sacred.
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You'll get practical tips, career strategies and musings on
2:36
life, plus guest experts to help us fill in the gaps.
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So grab a coffee or hide in your car for some knee time.
2:43
We're about to figure out this work, life and parenting stuff
2:46
out together. Rochelle Bergstein, thank you so
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much for joining me on the All Figured Out podcast.
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It's great to have you here. It's so good to be here.
2:55
Thank you. And you are in Brooklyn, NY I am
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fabulous. I'm in Vancouver, BC I love the
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Internet for such things. Didn't have to.
3:06
Absolutely. Yeah.
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I don't have a plane to connect. And I'm so excited to speak with
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you. When we were having an intro
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call, I remember I think I said to you probably three times, I
3:15
was listening back to our conversation to remind myself,
3:18
you know, what we talked about. And I think three times in the
3:21
conversation I was like, oh, this is such a cool and
3:24
different conversation that we're going to have.
3:27
It is really a cool path that you've forged in this book that
3:31
you've written, um, the genius of Judy and but you know, we've
3:35
got, we've got to take it back. I want to hear how did you get
3:39
to a point where you are writing a book about Judy Bloom?
3:42
Did you know as a child reading her books that you would be
3:46
diving into her work in such a deep and intimate way?
3:50
Oh my God, no. When I was reading Judy Blume as
3:53
a child, all I was paying attention to was the fact that
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there were girls my age and they were stories that I could relate
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to and that I didn't necessarily want my dad to read these books
4:07
to me because they talked about things like boobs.
4:10
That's it, That's it. Ah, it's so good.
4:16
And were you always a writer? Were you always, you know, have
4:19
like that artistic side in you? I did.
4:23
I always wanted to be a writer. Like from the moment I remember
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someone asking me what I wanted to be when I grew up.
4:30
And this is the actually a funny story that I haven't told anyone
4:33
on a podcast before, which is that when I was in second grade,
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I started writing short stories. And I don't know if it was
4:41
prompted by the teacher or was an assignment or a member.
4:43
But what I remember that I would write short stories and then I
4:47
would kill off my characters. And I did it pretty consistently
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enough that my second grade teacher, like, reached out to my
4:53
mom be like, it's something that we need to worry about.
4:56
And my mom asked me about it. And I was like, oh, I just like,
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didn't know how to end it. Like, I got bored of the story.
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And it was like a narrative device.
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It was like and then she died. Oh my God, The teacher is like,
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is there like a terminal illness at home?
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Like, is she going through? No.
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No, I just didn't know her and my story is.
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Well, and it's actually how every Disney movie starts is
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some sort of parent or like guardian figure dying.
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So it makes sense that this would come out as well.
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It's like a really rational, to me, way to end a story about
5:28
someone. It's like, well, that's the end
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of their story. It's so funny.
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That's like not a happy ending either.
5:36
Oh my gosh. So walk me through your journey
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to you have a nine year old son, but what was your career?
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I mean, you have been featured in huge publications as a
5:48
writer. Like you have clearly kind of
5:50
hit the pinnacle of being an author and journalist.
5:54
I think you'd probably call yourself a writer.
5:57
What was it like to just be so clearly career oriented and
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driven and welcome a son into the role?
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What was that whole journey into motherhood like for?
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You. Oh, my goodness.
6:08
Well, thank you so much for saying that.
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I wrote my second book when I was pregnant with my son.
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I think I was 8 1/2 months pregnant when I put the
6:20
finishing touches on the manuscripts, like after going
6:22
through the copy edits and writing the acknowledgements
6:24
like crossing my T's and dotting my eyes.
6:27
And then I had my son and everyone had said to me in a
6:32
very encouraging way, you know, you have a great career to be a
6:36
mom. You're you work from home most
6:38
of the time. Your hours are flexible.
6:42
And that was true to some extent.
6:43
I would say it's true now, but there was definitely a huge
6:47
adjustment period for me after my son was born.
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You know, he had been cozy and quiet in my belly.
6:53
And then when he was out, he was amazing.
6:55
But he was, he needed my attention.
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And that's not necessarily the ideal circumstance in which to
7:02
produce anything creative. So I had, I really struggled to
7:09
find my balance in that book that I finished when I was
7:11
pregnant with him. It came out when he was I think
7:14
nine months old. And that was unbelievably
7:18
challenging, promoting the book, getting last minute interview
7:22
invitations and figuring out how I was going to do them when I
7:25
didn't have really full time childcare.
7:28
So it has been a journey trying to figure out the balance of the
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both. But I do think knock on wood,
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like I've kind of got it now, but it definitely took some
7:37
time. OK, well, we're gonna have to
7:39
unpack that because I'm like, if that's all the tips, but I have
7:43
to ask because I've been seeing, I think on podcast, I'm such an
7:47
obviously, I'm such a podcast nerd.
7:49
I love them so much. And we're seeing so many authors
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promoting their books on podcast and doing tours.
7:55
I feel like we're really getting the behind the scenes on what it
7:57
takes to promote a book right now because there's so many
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different avenues and platforms for authors to go out on.
8:02
But I want to hear like, what is it really?
8:05
It just seems like so much work, A to Bertha book and B, to go on
8:10
these tours. Like can you tell me what behind
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the scenes like I like you're like a celebrity.
8:14
Like what is it really like to do these tours?
8:17
Like you flying around? Is it exhausting?
8:21
Tell me everything. I mean, it's so funny that you
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say that because it's not glamorous at all.
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I mean, I think for like really top tier writers who are
8:28
traveling around, they still is. They're still doing old
8:31
fashioned book tours where they're going from place to
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place and bookstore to bookstore.
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For the vast majority of working writers, it doesn't really make
8:40
sense to lay out the money to do that sort of thing.
8:43
So, and even this has changed over the past, you know, decade.
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My first book came out in 2012 and I did travel around a little
8:50
bit more to promote that book. And now we can do this, you
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know, So a lot of it. You and I figured out a time
8:57
that worked for the two of us. I'm in my bedroom.
9:00
It's quite a bit easier actually.
9:02
I've done library events over Zoom where we had hundreds of
9:07
people tuning in and I was just home and my son and my husband
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were like sitting and eating dinner in the next room.
9:14
So umm, Zoom, Riverside, all of these platforms have made this
9:19
actually a lot easier. Wow, incredible.
9:22
And do you really is it like is it still the same thing where
9:25
like the amount that you promote your book is the amount that you
9:29
sell? Like do you really see like this
9:31
lift? Are you trying to get into like
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so many different niches and audiences to just like because
9:35
it's a real numbers game, right? Like it is a.
9:39
Game, You know, someone who works in the industry once told
9:42
me that someone has to hear about a book 7 times in general
9:46
before they buy it. What?
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Right. And I mean, it sounds crazy, but
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then it also kind of makes sense.
9:53
You know, like the first time someone mentioned something or
9:55
recommends it to you, you're kind of like, OK, noted.
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And you don't really necessarily act on that.
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But the second, third time, if something keeps coming up, your
10:05
brain latches on to the idea that maybe you need to pay
10:08
attention to it. Especially in the world we live
10:10
in today, when there's so much out there, so much information,
10:13
like darting at us at all times. Yeah, I think it makes sense
10:16
that someone needs to hear about something over and over and over
10:19
again before they actually pull the trigger and make a purchase.
10:22
Good point. And they have to hear from
10:24
different, different sources, like somebody that may be look,
10:27
sound, seems like them similar stage of life, like, oh, that
10:30
person. It resonates with them.
10:32
So, you know, they get they have the vote of confidence to be
10:34
like, OK, getting closer, but let me hear it six more times.
10:37
That's also crazy though. That feels like a huge, huge
10:40
lift. Now, if we take it back to
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before you had your son, how would you describe like what was
10:46
the nature of work, your work? Were you working full time for
10:49
the New York Post? Was it or were you always kind
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of a freelance writer working for yourself?
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I worked for the New York Post, actually, after my son was born,
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I had finished promoting my second book.
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I was sort of betwixt in between.
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I was like freelancing for the post and I saw an opportunity to
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go there full time and I took it and it was an incredible
11:11
experience because my career has been sort of backwards in that I
11:14
never was on staff when I was writing books.
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And then I really felt like I was kind of missed.
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There was a missing piece in terms of my understanding of the
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industry. So I wanted to be on staff
11:25
somewhere, but that was actually not a great balance with
11:29
parenting. And I'll say it's because like,
11:32
yes, it's a full time, very demanding job, but also working
11:37
for a daily paper. So things get crazy around 5:00.
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So yeah, it's, it's kind of a predictable rhythm.
11:46
And if you're a young, single, hungry journalist, it actually
11:50
can be great because you can start your day at 10:30 eleven
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and you know you're going to work till 7:00 or 8:00 and then
11:55
you can go out sooner or whatever.
11:57
And I think that flow works for a lot of people.
12:00
But if your parenting a 2 1/2 year old like I was and like
12:03
some of my other coworkers were at the time, all you want to do
12:06
is get home for bedtime and dinner time and spend that time
12:08
with your kids. So it, it was very challenging.
12:11
I was very, very tired. Only imagine and So what
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transpired before because you said that you feel like things
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have like you've started to figure it out.
12:20
What are some of those Nuggets or things that you've been able
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to kind of put into place or like what's what's working now
12:26
seven years later, I suppose? Yeah, so school.
12:32
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Schools.
12:34
Are big. 1 I tend, I've like kind of, I'm not necessarily
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naturally a morning person, but I have trained my brain to
12:43
really be able to like get up and write in the morning.
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So I do tend to get like the heaviest lifting done between
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like 9 and two and that maps very nicely over school hours.
12:58
I also, this was birthed of the pandemic actually.
13:02
So we have a little childcare pod with a couple of our friends
13:05
that we still use and they actually might bust into my
13:09
apartment any minute now. But you know, we share our
13:12
babysitter with a couple other families and all pay her
13:16
together collectively and help each other out.
13:19
So that's been huge too, because when things come up, I can ask a
13:22
friend or you know, we have like a village here.
13:25
So that's great. I'm trying to think what else,
13:30
You know, there's just, he's 9 now, so I can say I have to
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work. And that's, I mean, that makes a
13:35
big difference, you know, when he was three years old, Like
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those words don't really mean anything.
13:41
And the heartbreak in the eyes versus maybe a nine year old.
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Is he kind of like, cool, I'm doing my own thing anyways.
13:47
Like doesn't really. Yeah, you're more like that.
13:50
Totally, totally. OK, OK, that sounds good.
13:54
Wait, tell me more about this pod.
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So is it you have a babysitter that comes to hang out with a
13:58
couple of them? Is that how it works?
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We started this stirring COVID. There were four families.
14:05
Three of the kids were only children.
14:07
So we all felt like, hey, this is really important that our
14:10
kids get social time. Therefore, you know, they need
14:13
to not just be around adults and talking like lawyers, you know,
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so, so we found an amazing babysitter and we also had
14:24
hybrid school at that time. I don't remember what you guys
14:27
were doing in Canada, but here when school started again, it
14:30
was like half in and half out, you know, like they were doing
14:34
half of it over his room and half of it in person.
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So for those Zoom days, you know, it was kind of vital to
14:40
have childcare to help them with their devices, logging on,
14:44
logging off, doing the activities that the teachers
14:46
were assigning to them. And it works so well and it gave
14:52
us such a sense of community and like support that we've
14:56
continued it, you know, ever since, more or less.
15:01
So it's a different babysitter now.
15:04
The kids rotate. So today they're at my apartment
15:07
and then Tuesday will be another kids apartment.
15:09
Wednesday they'll be another kids apartment.
15:10
So it's basically like a nanny share, but we call it our pod
15:13
because that's how we started referring to it during COVID.
15:16
That is such a cool idea. What a different take on like an
15:19
after school program too. And then it's maybe it's kind of
15:22
fun to see your kids together and like how they interact with
15:26
their peers. But it's such a like easy type
15:28
of play date where like you've got the babysitter, they know
15:31
each other very well. Like they've got their rhythm
15:33
with it. Like that's so fun.
15:35
I love that. It's kind of great.
15:36
We all have been like, why doesn't everybody do this?
15:38
You know, you do the nanny shares when they're really
15:41
little, but you know, don't sleep on the nanny share when
15:44
they're 98910. It actually still works.
15:49
Yes, I love it. Now I want to ask you, you are a
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published author, Author Times 3.
15:56
And lately you have of course been exploring this kind of meta
16:00
like books within books. Like I guess you're, you've
16:02
written a book about an author who was writing books.
16:05
And so you've probably been thinking a lot about, and I know
16:08
that you're really passionate about children's literature and
16:11
censorship and all the stuff that's going on with that.
16:14
So what is the experience been like for you to watch your son
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interact with folks growing up like over the last nine years?
16:20
His relationship with literature and books like How Has that been
16:23
for You? Oh my God, so joyful.
16:25
He loves to read and that just, like, makes me.
16:28
It warms my heart, you know, because I was a kid who loved to
16:32
read and, you know, he always wants to go to the bookstore.
16:35
He's always requesting books on his Kindle and I couldn't be
16:38
happier. We read a lot of books together
16:43
for my research for this book. So unlike the other things that
16:46
I've written about, which are shoes and diamonds, which she
16:49
has no interest in, this book, I was able to like share some of
16:53
the research with him. So we read Judy Bloom books, we
16:55
read Beverly Cleary books, we read Pippi Longstocking, you
16:58
know, just some of those like classics.
17:00
And that was so much fun. It's so cool.
17:03
Are there any, I don't know why this question is coming up, but
17:05
I'm going to ask you, are there any books that you're, you're
17:08
like, oh, this one hasn't really aged well that you've read
17:11
recently? Totally.
17:13
So I don't know that I read these four, the Judy Blume book,
17:18
but I loved the Boxcar Children growing up.
17:21
I remember my first grade teacher read us the Boxcar
17:24
Children and it really like just captured my imagination, these
17:28
kids living alone in the woods, taking care of themselves.
17:32
And my son really liked it too. But the gender roles are very,
17:36
very traditional in this way that I certainly didn't notice
17:39
in 1986 or whatever it was. You know, the boys go out and
17:44
they like, gather the food, you know, they like, take care of
17:47
things. And the girls clean and, yeah,
17:51
super traditional. And I did feel reading Pippi
17:54
Longstocking as well, that we had to take, you know, a breath
17:57
and a few moments and be like, you know, we really don't spank
18:00
children anymore and things like that.
18:04
I'm comfortable having that moment with him.
18:07
You know, I think like it's not necessarily enough of a reason
18:10
to avoid these books, but you do have to prepare yourself that
18:13
you might want to have some conversations about.
18:14
What they're saying, right? Do you think that you should
18:18
every parent should be reading a book?
18:21
House is a hard one, but like, do we need to read all the books
18:23
before our children read them? I don't really think so.
18:30
You know, it would be great if we all had that kind of time,
18:34
but I think, you know, I think it would actually be an
18:37
incredible resource if there was like some kind of website or app
18:42
for that. Like if someone you trusted was
18:44
saying like this, you know, this classic book doesn't hold up.
18:48
Here's the things you need to look out for.
18:51
But I generally think that kids, if they, if something like it
18:56
speak, it tweaks their radar, you know, that they're like, oh,
18:59
what's that? What's up with that?
19:00
They'll ask. OK.
19:02
You know. Yeah, I do think more credit.
19:05
Yeah. Yeah, I love that.
19:07
That's so cool. OK, those were my burning
19:10
questions I had to ask off the top just about books.
19:12
But now I want to get into the genius of Judy, the themes of
19:17
censorship coming back up. Like, first of all, why this
19:21
book? Why now?
19:22
Like where did this even come? From so, my editor and I were
19:26
noticing that Judy Blume was really having an ascendant
19:31
moment that over and over and over again, people were writing,
19:35
tweeting, talking about Judy and the impact that she had on their
19:39
lives. And that was my experience
19:41
personally as well. She had a huge impact on me as a
19:43
young person and I knew that same was true for a lot of my
19:46
friends. Um, and when I started thinking
19:50
about writing about Judy Blume, one of the things that I was
19:52
really interested in learning was why is she so special?
19:57
You know, there are so many children's books writers out
20:00
there. You know I named a bunch just
20:02
now. And why is it that Judy, she
20:07
like seems to lodge in peoples hearts and minds in this really
20:10
particular and really special way?
20:12
So I wanted to like reread all of her books and kind of insert
20:18
them into their cultural context and understand like what she was
20:21
contributing and what whole she was really filling that hadn't
20:25
been filled before. You know, that she had to have
20:27
been doing something incredibly important for her to make the
20:30
impact that she has. And sure enough, my editor and I
20:34
were right. Like, it was during the time
20:37
that I was researching this like that, I think the New York Times
20:39
declared it, the blue Nissans, you know, like she's 87 years
20:44
old. People are starting to really
20:46
think of her as kind of a living legend.
20:48
And I don't know. I tried to figure out why.
20:52
That is so cool and is is quite the departure from the type of
20:56
work that you typically write on.
20:57
It sounds like it has been like if in your day-to-day writing
21:01
articles contributing. I know you've you've spanned pop
21:05
culture and everything like that.
21:06
So does this feel a bit different for you?
21:10
Didn't feel that different actually.
21:11
You know, a lot of people have said, like shoes, diamonds, Judy
21:14
Bloom, what's up with that? And to me, they all fell on the
21:17
same continuum, actually. So all of my books have been
21:20
interested in feminism, first of all, and second of all in things
21:25
that women cherish that have been kind of derided culturally
21:29
and thought of as frivolous. So Shoes and Diamond certainly
21:34
fall into that category. And Judy Blume books do too.
21:38
You know, they have been dismissed as not literary, as
21:41
junk food, as things little girls like, none of which are
21:44
things that people take seriously.
21:47
And I like to make a case that Judy Blume books actually are
21:51
incredibly serious and incredibly important and sort of
21:54
reserve the place in their cult, in our culture that they've
21:57
gotten to. Yes.
21:58
Oh, that's so cool. For me personally, I think I
22:01
shared this with you that I wore a back brace.
22:03
I think it was 15. It was a, it was a a phase.
22:08
I want to say 15 somewhere around there, somewhere around
22:10
that time where you really don't want to be wearing a back brace.
22:14
And it was like, I remember saying to my stepdad, it was
22:17
like the world was ending. I was like, why me crying?
22:21
And he was like, he didn't know what to say.
22:22
He was like, oh God, I don't know, Joe.
22:24
And at the same time one of my mom's friends, her daughter was
22:28
getting a back brace as well. And she was like, Hey, you,
22:31
you're like, get Andrea to read Deenie because, you know, my
22:34
daughter got a back brace and that really helped her.
22:36
So that was my first Judy Blume book.
22:39
And it I remember what was so cool in that in hindsight, who
22:44
knows what I was actually thinking in the moment, but in
22:45
hindsight, like what a great way to make me feel seen and feel
22:51
like someone else. The character Deanie was like
22:55
exploring feelings and like having like big emotions around
22:59
this thing that I didn't know anybody else who was going
23:02
through this. I didn't know how to put words
23:05
to the feelings I was having. And it did it in an entertaining
23:08
way versus reading like a textbook like back then, like
23:10
encyclopedia entry about like back braces or whatever.
23:13
Like I don't, I didn't need the facts.
23:15
I needed the emotion and I needed it to be represented in
23:18
somebody my age like me. And I found that was just so, so
23:23
helpful. And, and it's like, it's why
23:25
can't two things be true? And you said that it was like
23:27
junk food or like not literate. Why can't something be literary
23:30
and entertaining? Like I found it.
23:31
It was an entertaining story. It was a great story and I
23:35
learned so much and felt so validated.
23:38
So it's just incredible how people can really twist, twist
23:43
things. And over the years, I know that
23:44
there's been ebbs and flows and perhaps now we're getting back
23:47
to that days where there's a call from our censorship and
23:50
that sort of thing. But what was your what was your
23:52
experience? I know that it touched you
23:54
growing up as well. You write reading some of Judy
23:56
Blume's work. Yeah, So it's so funny.
24:00
My kind of like, sentimental favorite Judy Blume book is
24:02
probably not one of her most admired or even most famous,
24:06
which is just as long as we're together.
24:08
And I remember reading it and being just glued to the page,
24:11
Like, I couldn't read it fast enough.
24:13
I wanted to inhale it. And that was the memory that I
24:17
took away from it as an adult. And I couldn't remember really
24:20
much of the plot except that it was about these girls who were
24:23
friends, and the friendship dynamics kind of ebbs and
24:26
flowed, and they were trying to figure that out.
24:28
And trios hard and all those things.
24:31
And it wasn't until I started researching this book that I
24:34
went back and reread it And I was like, Oh my God, the main
24:37
characters parents are getting divorced and my parents had just
24:41
gotten divorced. And I was like, This is why I
24:43
loved this book so much. And it wasn't even on a
24:46
conscious level. Like I love your Deeni story and
24:50
I love that you saw yourself in her.
24:52
But I also think it doesn't even have to be that obvious.
24:56
You know, to me, it was like, subconsciously this character is
25:00
like pissed off that parents are getting divorced.
25:03
And as was I and I wasn't really talking about that or sharing
25:08
that with anybody. And I think, you know, you can,
25:10
once you see yourself reflected in a book like that, it's very
25:13
validating. Yes.
25:16
So I think so many of us saw ourselves in the pages of Judy
25:21
Blume's books, and, yes, we were entertained by the plots, but
25:26
there are so many interesting things and details and choices
25:29
that she makes within the books that have really added to their
25:35
impact. I think one example is that,
25:38
like, I never noticed the mothers in Judy's books when I
25:41
was reading as a kid. Like, they might as well have
25:43
been the Charlie Brown mother. Like, who cares?
25:45
Yeah. But reading them as a parent, I
25:48
was like, oh, there are actually really interesting stuff in here
25:51
about moms and fulfillment and wanting to find themselves
25:56
outside of the home and all of these incredibly feminist
26:00
perspectives just tucked in these entertaining books about
26:04
kids on the school bus. You know, this is Judy's gift,
26:08
right? She was able to pack so much
26:10
into these books that on the surface are just.
26:13
Really readable and what was happening in the context of her
26:18
life when she was reading, when she was writing these books?
26:20
Was it a really massive yet somewhat subtle like feminist
26:26
push that she was trying to do? Or was she kind of hiding the
26:29
feminist or even just like cultural themes within the pages
26:34
of her books, like hoping it was subliminally get out there?
26:38
Like was she known? Was she intending to be radical
26:42
or you know what what, what was going on?
26:44
I don't think that she was intending to be radical, and I
26:46
think in fact she was just reflecting the things that she
26:49
was thinking about in her own life into her books for
26:52
children. I write about Judy's history,
26:56
which is that she was raised in a middle class, kind of like
26:59
typical Jewish family. She was, you know, she grew up
27:04
in the 1950s. She was a good girl, a good
27:07
student. She did ballet.
27:10
She was the yearbook editor, you know, and she got married and
27:14
pregnant before she graduated from college.
27:16
So, you know, she was walking the path that she had been
27:21
raised to walk, which was that, you know, you land a good
27:24
husband, you live in a good home, you have his children, you
27:26
make his dinner. And she did all of those things.
27:29
And like many women of her era, once she had accomplished those
27:33
things, she looked around and was kind of like, I'm 26 and
27:36
like, what now? You know, she didn't have
27:40
anything to give her purpose beyond her children.
27:43
And she loved her children, but it just wasn't enough for like a
27:46
really creative soul that she was.
27:49
So she happened to be having these experiences for herself
27:54
and asking herself these questions at the same moment
27:57
that the women's movement in this country was exploding, you
28:00
know? And all of a sudden you have
28:01
Betty Friedan writing The Feminine Mystique and showing us
28:04
that Judy was not alone in these feelings.
28:06
In fact, tons and tons and tons of middle class white women were
28:10
feeling the same way, which was that they had been educated,
28:14
they had had these really creative, exciting periods of
28:19
their lives when they were children, and then they were
28:21
kind of locked away in their homes after they got married.
28:24
And I think that Judy Blume was absorbing all of this
28:29
information, all of his cultural messaging.
28:31
I think she was very interested in it for herself.
28:34
She ultimately got divorced and she wrote it, consciously or
28:39
not, into the books that she was writing at the time.
28:41
Incredible. Did you say she's still alive?
28:45
Is it bad that I didn't know that?
28:48
I think it's just a testament to how iconic she is.
28:51
You're like, how could she just be out there being a person?
28:53
But she is. Yeah, like that's incredible to
28:56
me. It just feels like they, because
28:58
I feel like when I was a kid reading Judy Blume and I only
29:01
really remember reading Deanie, to be honest.
29:03
I'm sure I did read others, but and back then I was like, oh,
29:06
this this old book, like, because it was probably written
29:09
20 years before or whatever. But to me, it was like an old
29:11
book. Yeah, that's so.
29:14
Oh my gosh, that's fascinating. What an interesting story and
29:16
how cool that she shared that with the world are.
29:19
Is there now a movement for more adults to be reading?
29:22
Like are people getting into reading reading her books in
29:26
this like new surge of Judy Blume?
29:29
We don't know that there is like any sort of active movement.
29:33
But I think that, you know, I've talked to a lot of people who
29:35
have said, oh, I read your book. I loved Judy as a kid, and it
29:38
makes me want to go back and read.
29:39
And I really recommend it. I actually, I recommend reading
29:43
any of the books that really spoke to you as a child because
29:45
it's kind of like a window into who you were.
29:48
You know, like when you think about what ideas really sparked
29:51
your imagination as a young person and then you can look
29:54
back at them as an adult. Like, it really gives you
29:56
insight into like what you were interested in as a kid.
29:59
It's kind of fun. It's so cool.
30:02
And on that note, I know you've got some really cool beliefs and
30:05
ideas just around I don't know you're you're philosophy around
30:08
reading, which was so striking to me is just let the kids read.
30:13
I said, what's your thesis? And you're like, just let them
30:16
read what they want. Can you tell me more about why
30:19
you believe that? Yeah, So my point of view is
30:22
very much informed by Judy Blume.
30:26
I became really kind of like animated around the book
30:29
censorship issue in researching this book.
30:32
And I really do feel that the kids read because first of all,
30:36
I think any kind of censorship is a very slippery slope.
30:39
And second of all, kids are actually great sensors for
30:44
themselves. You know, like they will only
30:47
read what genuinely interests them.
30:49
You know, you can't, we all know you can't force a kid to read
30:52
something that doesn't interest them.
30:53
So if something is interesting to them, it means that it's at
30:56
their level that they're ready for it.
30:58
And hopefully you keep the window open to have
31:02
conversations about what they're reading.
31:05
You know, So for me, it became very clear to me that, like, you
31:11
know, the sexual content in Judy Blume's books is what has made
31:14
people so angry about them. But honestly, as a parent, I
31:18
would much rather my son read a book that has stuff like that in
31:22
it and then come to me and ask questions versus Googling it.
31:26
And who the heck knows what he's going to land on?
31:30
You know, I also think it creates a really kind of neutral
31:33
way to talk about some of these topics that can be a little bit
31:36
sticky or a little bit thorny with your kids.
31:38
And forever, of course, this is notorious book where two
31:42
teenagers decide to have sex. And I think that it's a lot
31:46
easier for a child to go to their parent and say, Catherine
31:50
was interested in birth control. You know, what do you think of
31:52
that as opposed to I'm interested in birth control,
31:54
right? I think it can give people sort
31:57
of like a neutral story or vocabulary to use to talk about
32:00
these really difficult topics. So for all of those reasons, let
32:05
the kids read. That's how I feel.
32:08
How do you feel about the people who you know, do you know 4th
32:10
Wing and that whole dragon? It's like the Oh my gosh, now
32:15
I'm forgetting the author, but there's this kind of teen, young
32:20
adult, I would say not teen young adult dragon series.
32:24
That's like kind of spicy, spicy romance, but it's like, it's
32:27
kind of like a hunger game style.
32:29
And there's just, Oh my goodness, like I, I read it and
32:32
I was like, whoa, this is like, it's spicy.
32:34
But it was thrilling. Like you wanted to see what
32:36
happened at the end. Whatever.
32:37
It's just fun and Oh my God, I remember like Googling it after,
32:40
you know, you kind of have. I always finish a book and then
32:43
I like research little things about it.
32:44
I'm like, oh, like who's the author bubble, blah.
32:47
And my God, the narrative online was like all these angry, angry
32:51
moms were like my high school students reading this just like
32:56
like book, trying to ban the book and like not I don't know,
32:59
all this. And I was just like, but there's
33:01
nothing like, I don't know, it was sex like.
33:05
Right. And so how do you feel about
33:09
about that and like about these these parents that get so up in
33:13
arms, they want to like get all the books together and burn them
33:15
and bubble. Well, like, what's your reaction
33:18
to when you like, read, see, stuff like that online?
33:21
Or no, no, I feel like a book never got anyone pregnant.
33:23
You know it's. Like you know about it anyways.
33:28
If my kid was reading a book that was a little bit spicy, I'd
33:32
be like, yeah, that sounds a lot better than him Googling for
33:36
porn or, or having unprotected sex because he doesn't know how
33:41
to protect himself and his partner.
33:42
I mean, these things, sex is a part of our reality, and it's a
33:46
bit uncomfortable to talk to our children about it.
33:48
But the truth is, you know what are the choices.
33:52
Good. What are what are the choices?
33:55
What? Pick your poison.
33:57
Like they're going to find out about it.
33:58
Yeah. Do you want, like, Johnny on the
34:00
schoolyard to be like giving a hack job at what he thinks is
34:04
exactly. OK.
34:06
Exactly. I like that.
34:09
OK, so you also believe that like, just let the kids kind of
34:12
follow, follow their interests. And.
34:14
And I as a kid, I loved the show.
34:19
I was really, I was young. I loved the show Arthur, which I
34:22
put it on. We got it, Arthur.
34:24
Yeah. I was like, it's.
34:25
Kind of boring, but anyways, she seemed to like it too.
34:27
But there was something about it, something about it that I
34:29
enjoyed. And I remember I really liked to
34:33
read, but I would say I had a hard time.
34:35
He wasn't grade 2/3. It was just taking me a bit to
34:39
get into it, to get into like the chapter books and like the
34:42
long form reading. Like, I don't know if it's just
34:44
maybe a little bit delayed. I think a little bit.
34:46
I love to read now, but it took me a bit.
34:48
And it was those school books where they're trying to make you
34:51
read this book or make you read that book.
34:52
And I think it was a librarian or whomever.
34:54
My mom was always in, parents were super supportive of just
34:57
like, yeah, get whatever books you want.
34:59
And I remember started starting to read Arthur books.
35:02
So it was like a spin off from the TV show.
35:05
So there were stories that I'd never heard and I'd never seen
35:08
the episodes because they were just like new.
35:10
And they were these little chapter books that I could fly
35:12
through. And I built it, built this
35:13
confidence within me that I just, I'll never forget.
35:16
It would be going to the ski hill and I'd be in the back
35:18
seat. This is before I got carsick for
35:20
sure. And I'd be sitting there
35:21
devouring these Arthur, quote, UN quote chapter books more than
35:26
10 pages long. And yeah, I was.
35:28
And I remember almost being a bit bashful about it at the time
35:32
because I was like, oh, this isn't a real book.
35:34
What what do you think about that?
35:36
About just like, do you just let, do you believe that?
35:38
It's like, just let them read whatever they want.
35:41
Like just read. They do.
35:44
I mean, you know, my son is super into graphic novels.
35:47
Do I wish that he were sitting down and reading like, I don't
35:50
even know, Weathering Heights, Like, totally sure.
35:54
But like, this is what he likes. And I don't want to make books
35:57
vegetables. You know, books are amazing.
36:01
And if I think if you're too didactic about what your kids
36:04
read, you're kind of taking the fun a lot of it, you know, if
36:06
you're like, well, I don't want you to read what you like.
36:09
I want you to read this thing that I'm signing to you kind of
36:11
like homework. Obviously, they're not going to
36:14
connect with those books. And then hopefully if they
36:18
develop a love of reading through the picking the books
36:20
that they want to read, they will come around and read, you
36:23
know, Tolstoy maybe. That's so awesome.
36:29
What's a book or are? You can pick a couple if you
36:32
want that you think every adolescent should have the
36:35
option or opportunity to read. Oh my goodness.
36:39
That's a tough question because I haven't really.
36:43
I don't have an adolescent child yet and I haven't read.
36:49
I don't read a ton of YA. I remember loving The Giver as a
36:54
kid. I don't know what age that's
36:56
perfect for, but I remember loving that book.
37:01
Yeah, I remember loving, but this is slightly younger.
37:06
A Wrinkle in Time? I don't know, though.
37:09
I don't know. I have to think about it.
37:10
Yeah. The Fault in Our Stars is
37:12
amazing. That's an amazing.
37:15
Beautiful, beautiful. Book.
37:17
Yeah. I would say the adult version.
37:19
Did you read? I'm Zuleika?
37:22
Oh my gosh. What's her last name?
37:24
She's married to John Baptiste Baptiste and UM between 2
37:30
kingdoms. No.
37:32
It's almost like the adult version of a vault in our stars
37:35
and a completely different plot, but it's a woman who goes from
37:38
having a blood cancer to being in remission.
37:42
But it's her whole journey between those two kingdoms of
37:44
like being someone with cancer then post and how people never
37:46
talk about like what it's like to just survive and be in the
37:49
world. And ah, she's she reminds me of
37:52
you because she came from she's a writer.
37:54
She would write for, you know, all sorts of like huge
37:58
publications and then she wrote her story as well.
38:00
And she's, yeah, the stories is beautiful.
38:02
So anyways. That sounds amazing.
38:04
Kingdoms, it's stunning story. Um, it reminds me of the
38:08
alternate stories. Oh, that movie.
38:10
My little sister and I went to see it after we read the book.
38:12
I remember the lights go on and her and I were heaving, sobbing,
38:19
like, yeah, why do they do that to you?
38:22
Why can't they like give you a bit of a buffer period where the
38:25
lights are still off for a minute ah?
38:28
It's so true, just like collect yourself and then and then face
38:34
the world again. Well, that movie is so good.
38:36
So good, so good. OK, what's a book?
38:41
An I know that you're not like necessarily like a children's
38:43
literature, like expert, but you're kind of you've given dove
38:47
into it. What's a good Judy Blume book
38:49
that you'd say is good for, you know, giving our kids when
38:53
they're, when they're old enough to read those books?
38:56
Books are so fun and they are not controversial, right?
39:01
So no matter who you are, what you know, no matter what you
39:04
believe that children should have access to in books, the
39:06
Fudge books are just funny. And I remember them being funny.
39:10
I remember reading Super Fudge on the floor of my bedroom when
39:14
I was a kid and laughing out loud.
39:16
And I read it again with my son and it made him laugh out loud.
39:20
Like they're timeless and they just are hysterical.
39:23
So I think like, start there, you know, and then if you want
39:27
to, you know, cross over into the more kind of like
39:30
traditional Judy Bloom terrain, then you have are you there?
39:33
God, it's me, Margaret, which I think every girl should read and
39:35
probably every boy too. It's also a beautiful book.
39:38
And it's, you know, the one where she first started tackling
39:41
bodies and she kind of, like, breached the period taboo in
39:45
children's literature. So we all have her to thank for
39:48
being able to talk about such things.
39:50
That's amazing. What's the What are the Fudge
39:52
books about again, for those who, myself included, don't
39:55
remember? Yeah, So the first one is called
39:57
Tales of a Fourth Grade. Nothing.
39:58
And it's about a boy named Peter Hatcher and his family.
40:01
And they live in an apartment building in New York City.
40:03
And he has a little brother named Nicknames Fudge.
40:07
And he's just a total Wrecking Ball of a child.
40:10
And Peter has such a, like, love, hate relationship with
40:14
this kid. You know it's his little
40:15
brother, but he's so freaking annoying.
40:18
And he's challenging for his parents.
40:21
Like at one point they have dad's clients over for dinner
40:25
and Fudge is so badly behaved that the clients like, ends up
40:28
leaving his company. You know, it's just like, it's,
40:32
it's slapstick. And even my son was like, wow,
40:37
Fudge is really crazy, you know? So I think no matter how wild
40:41
your kid is, they'll see Fudge and be like, at least not like
40:44
that. Yes, yes, I'm excited for the
40:47
phase where I can start. I tell my daughter I just make
40:49
up stories every night. I call them her uni stories,
40:52
like Unicorn, that's about like her pretend Unicorn.
40:55
And like they go on these adventures.
40:56
And her little brother has a Unicorn too because she wanted
40:58
to include him anyways. Sometimes I'm like, oh man, I
41:01
could really go for just like reading a book.
41:02
And we read lots of books too. But I'm also really excited for
41:05
the phase of life where we can like, read a novel together.
41:08
Yeah. What age?
41:10
Since you're a little ahead of me, what age do you think you
41:12
can start? Like could I read like the fun
41:14
one of the fudge books like with my 4 year old daughter?
41:16
Are we like waiting a bit for that type of thing?
41:19
It kind of depends what kind of kid you have, right?
41:22
Yeah. So you never really know until
41:23
you try. Like, I feel like I would try
41:25
books with my son, and if they got him interested, we would
41:30
keep going. And if they didn't, we'd be
41:31
like, OK, maybe try that another time.
41:34
So yeah, there were books that surprised me that he liked at
41:38
such a young age. Like we read from the author of
41:41
Lemony Snicket. There's like a funny little kind
41:44
of quirky memoir book that he really liked when he was like,
41:49
6. And then we tried reading the
41:51
Lemony Snicket books, like from the first one.
41:54
And he was like, no, I don't like this because the parents
41:56
are dead. And it made him upset.
41:59
So, you know, I always just like, try it.
42:01
And then if your kids into it, keep going.
42:04
Yeah. And now, Rochelle, it sounds
42:08
like you follow like your interests in what's like coming
42:11
top of mind and maybe what's happening in the world and that
42:14
sort of thing. What is next for you?
42:15
What are you exploring? Next, So this book, like I said,
42:20
it was very like caught up in a lot of feminist writing and that
42:27
was really exciting to me. I got to revisit a lot of kind
42:29
of seminal feminist texts that were fascinating to me.
42:33
And where this book leads off in the 1980s is kind of an
42:36
interesting moment for feminism. So I've been reading forward in
42:40
the feminist movement and trying to think if there's something
42:43
that I would maybe locate in like the lady does early 90s.
42:46
So still trying to figure it. Out cool, I love it and then
42:50
day-to-day as a writer, what you typically writing on or what's
42:53
speaking do these days? I'm always looking for like pop
42:57
culture stuff to rain on. I'm always looking for women's
42:59
issues, things that my friends are talking about.
43:02
You know, I did a story for The Washington Post last fall about
43:06
the rise of the perimenopause moment.
43:07
And it was, it came from the idea that I just was like, I was
43:10
getting served all of these like perimenopause influencers on
43:14
social media. All my girlfriends are in their
43:16
mid 40s talking about perimenopause.
43:19
And I was like, I feel like this is different, that everybody's
43:21
talking about this. And, you know, all fours came
43:24
out and New York Times called it, you know, the first great
43:27
perimenopausal novel. So I wrote about that and that's
43:30
where a lot of my ideas come from.
43:31
It's just like, what are my, what are me and my friends
43:33
talking about? What am I seeing 7 times that I
43:37
think I should be taking note of?
43:39
You know, that's where that's the stuff that's interesting to
43:42
me, the stuff that keeps coming up.
43:44
Yeah, I love that. That's so cool.
43:46
And I've, I'm, I don't know, even I'm 35, almost 35, and I
43:51
feel like that's Even so like I'm just getting bombarded with
43:55
the perimenopause. I have friends who are saying
43:56
like, is this perimenopause? I'm like, what is going on?
43:59
I mean, I love it. I love that people are talking
44:00
about it. I'm like, whoa, like we're
44:03
there. Or is it just that big of a
44:05
movement? But I'll definitely link that
44:06
article that you wrote all. Thank.
44:08
You because I think that's yeah, that's I would love to learn
44:12
more and hear more about like why, you know, why not?
44:15
I love, yeah, I love just finding out the history of these
44:18
things. What is, I mean, I know you're,
44:19
you're kind of exploring like the the feminist movement, but
44:22
what are some of the things that you think are like quite big for
44:24
2025? Like what are what's like the
44:26
perimenopause of this year? So one article that I'm looking
44:31
into now is, and it's because again, it's like the thing that
44:36
all of my friends are always talking about is like Botox or
44:38
not to Botox. And I'm trying to figure out how
44:40
to frame it. But that to me is like one of
44:43
the things, and I just facial plastic surgery in general is
44:46
getting so mainstream and I feel like those of us regular people
44:49
are having to kind of deal with that pressure all of a sudden.
44:55
So, so yeah, that's something that I'm very interested in
44:57
right now. Cool.
44:59
Oh, I love it. I just love what you do.
45:01
I think it's so, so awesome. And yeah, just so important,
45:07
even though I know what you're saying, Botox, but I think
45:09
that's important. It's kind of like the Judy
45:11
Blume. We're like, these are closed
45:12
door conversations that are happening, but like, where can
45:14
you learn more, You know, about some of these issues that we're
45:17
all kind of thinking about, but you're coming at it from a more
45:20
well researched approach than me and my girlfriends around a
45:23
dinner table. But that's the thing.
45:24
I mean, thank you. That's the thing.
45:26
It's like if everyone's girlfriends are talking about it
45:29
around a dinner table, it means it's important, right?
45:31
Even if it's something as silly as forehead wrinkles.
45:34
It's like if everybody's talking about it, that's telling us
45:36
something. It's so true and I feel like
45:40
we've kind of opened this up, but in general, I ask this to
45:43
every guest, what are what's something that you're just
45:45
trying to figure out right now? What am I trying to figure out
45:49
right now? I think what my next step is in
45:51
my career. You know, like what's the next
45:53
big project? I'm that's very top of mind.
45:56
Cool. I'm excited for you.
45:57
I'm excited to follow along and see.
45:59
And so everybody, I'm sure everyone can find the book at
46:02
all major bookstores. Is that correct?
46:05
OK, cool. And how else can they follow and
46:07
connect with you? So you can find me on my
46:10
website. It's my name,
46:11
rachellebergstein.com, social media.
46:15
I'm on Instagram and threads at Rochelle WB.
46:18
I have a sub stack about the book banning crisis, if that's
46:21
something that you're interested in.
46:22
It's called banner year. So any of those places
46:25
unresponsive. I love connecting with people
46:27
and having conversations. I love it.
46:30
Maybe you can do a book reading or a, is that what they're
46:33
called? Library Virtual library book.
46:37
Totally. I'm sorry.
46:40
It's so cool. Thanks for the work you do.
46:43
Thank you for this book. It's so beautiful and.
46:46
Thank. You paperback is out now too.
46:48
So that's exciting, right? Yeah, so cool.
46:52
Congratulations. It's.
46:53
Amazing. Thank you.
46:54
So nice talking to you. Thank you for having me.
46:57
Thanks, Rachel. Thank you so much for listening.
47:01
And since you made it this far, please share this episode with a
47:04
fellow parent who you love, respect, and want to support.
47:08
And while you're at it, hit me up on Instagram at All Figured
47:11
Out. Andrea, I would love to meet you
47:13
and hear what you are trying to figure out these days.