Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #493 Jason Flom with Ronnie Miller

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#493 Jason Flom with Ronnie Miller · Wrongful Conviction

0:02
Speaker 1: On February eleventh, twenty ten, a baby girl was born
0:06
Speaker 1: to unwed parents, Lourie Johnson and Ronnie Miller in Rockford, Illinois,
0:11
Speaker 1: but her parents' relationship gradually became contentious, which only worsened
0:15
Speaker 1: during the custody battle. During a heated exchange on July twelfth,
0:20
Speaker 1: twenty fifteen, Ronnie threatened to sue for full custody. A
0:25
Speaker 1: few days later, he was accused of sexually assaulting their
0:28
Speaker 1: daughter in a video statement made with Child Protective Services.
0:33
Speaker 1: The daughter appeared to have been coached into making the
0:35
Speaker 1: accusation on the record, an accusation that she repeatedly recanted
0:41
Speaker 1: and never again affirmed. Yet the state was able to
0:44
Speaker 1: find a nurse who claimed that the daughter's medical history
0:48
Speaker 1: was suspicious for sexual abuse, and that was enough for
0:52
Speaker 1: a jury to send Ronnie away for twenty long years.
0:56
Speaker 1: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to ronful conviction, where
1:10
Speaker 1: we have a case where it appears that false accusations
1:13
Speaker 1: were used to weaponize our courts and child Protective services
1:17
Speaker 1: to settle a custody battle and ultimately victimized the child
1:21
Speaker 1: whom they purported to protect, as it seems that she
1:25
Speaker 1: was used against her own will to incarcerate her father,
1:30
Speaker 1: Ronnie Miller, who's now calling in from an Illinois correctional facility. Ronnie,
1:35
Speaker 1: I'm sorry you're here, but I'm really happy to be
1:39
Speaker 1: able to share your story and I appreciate you being here.
1:41
Speaker 2: Welcome, Thank you very much.
1:43
Speaker 1: And joining him his post conviction attorney, Leonard Goodman.
1:46
Speaker 2: Yes, thank you.
1:48
Speaker 1: And later we'll hear from Ronnie's sister, Deborah, But first
1:52
Speaker 1: let's hear about what Ronnie's life was like before all
1:55
Speaker 1: of this.
1:56
Speaker 3: I grew up in Rockford, Illinois. Not a good place
1:59
Speaker 3: growing up, but it became a teenager.
2:01
Speaker 1: Who moved out.
2:02
Speaker 3: I dropped out of school, I got my ended up
2:05
Speaker 3: getting my dad, and then kind of just fell into
2:07
Speaker 3: factory work. Up until this, I actually had a pretty
2:11
Speaker 3: decent pharmaceutical packaging company. I worked in the warehouse, you know,
2:15
Speaker 3: I'd been there four years. All the other factories that
2:18
Speaker 3: I worked in Rockford were pretty much shitholes, horrid conditions
2:22
Speaker 3: and a little bit of money. So this company that
2:25
Speaker 3: I actually made it into that the work was clean.
2:28
Speaker 3: You're in a pharmaceutical company, The people were friendly, nice,
2:32
Speaker 3: you had room for success. It was a pretty good
2:34
Speaker 3: place to work at on my way to becoming management.
2:36
Speaker 3: This was from two thousand eleven until twenty fifteen.
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Speaker 1: During which time Ronnie was trying to copat his daughter
2:44
Speaker 1: with a woman named Laurie Johnson.
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Speaker 3: I had known Laurie off and on. We had our
2:49
Speaker 3: daughter in twenty tens, but in the beginning of the
2:53
Speaker 3: relationship it wasn't nothing serious. It was just having fun
2:56
Speaker 3: until she wanted me to move into her place, which
3:00
Speaker 3: I did. We had been doing good for i'd say
3:03
Speaker 3: about a whole year before she found out she was pregnant,
3:07
Speaker 3: and at that time she already had a child before,
3:12
Speaker 3: so I would say she was questionable about having another.
3:16
Speaker 3: For me, this would have been my first child, which, yeah,
3:20
Speaker 3: I was stoked that I was going to be a dad.
3:21
Speaker 3: I made every doctor's appointment that it was scheduled. I
3:25
Speaker 3: remember at one time I found out that my daughter
3:28
Speaker 3: she could hear me, so I started reading books and
3:31
Speaker 3: talking and playing music and everything, but a lot of reading.
3:36
Speaker 3: So you know, during the birth, she came out screaming.
3:39
Speaker 3: She screamed, and the nurses got her in her hands
3:41
Speaker 3: and everything, and I remember saying to her, it's okay,
3:45
Speaker 3: baby girl. Here's daddy, and she immediately knew my voice.
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Speaker 3: Even the nurse commented was like, oh she knows you.
3:51
Speaker 3: You know something I'll never forget.
3:54
Speaker 1: So while fatherhood seemed to suit Ronnie, he and Laurie
3:57
Speaker 1: weren't a natural fit.
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Speaker 3: We made it like the first when I found out
4:01
Speaker 3: she was cheating on me with a another man, and
4:05
Speaker 3: we pretty much broke things off. I was out of
4:08
Speaker 3: the house, but it was a very toxic relationship to
4:11
Speaker 3: where I would move out and she would convince me
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Speaker 3: to come back and all this, oh, let's do it
4:16
Speaker 3: for the babies. I'd fall for it every time I
4:19
Speaker 3: wanted my daughter to see us together. My parents were
4:22
Speaker 3: divorced and I didn't want that for her, So yeah,
4:26
Speaker 3: of course I kept coming back, even though the way
4:28
Speaker 3: she treated me was like shit. But when I wasn't
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Speaker 3: with her, she would hold the child from me. No
4:33
Speaker 3: you can't see her, No you can't talk to her,
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Speaker 3: this type of stuff, to where she would use the
4:38
Speaker 3: kid as leverage.
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Speaker 4: My understanding is that if he was not allowed to
4:43
Speaker 4: see her, he would get a court order so that
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Speaker 4: the mom's obstruction of his visitation would be put to
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Speaker 4: a stop by the judge.
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Speaker 1: And it appeared that this was a pattern for miss
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Speaker 1: Johnson that had been playing out with the father of
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Speaker 1: her fifteen year old son, Tristan oh Man.
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Speaker 3: If you talk to Wayne Gilberto, he'll tell you the
5:00
Speaker 3: exact same thing. And she had me believing this man
5:03
Speaker 3: was a heroin addict, the just the worst person imaginable.
5:07
Speaker 3: She was selling to me, and of course I believed her,
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Speaker 3: But later on I found out this dude was going
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Speaker 3: to work wanting to see his kid, wanted to be
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Speaker 3: in his kid's life, but because he wouldn't submit to her,
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Speaker 3: she did the exact same thing with him, use the
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Speaker 3: kid as leverage.
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Speaker 4: If you look at the family court records, you'll see
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Speaker 4: similar accusations made against that father or that other child.
5:30
Speaker 4: But that child had a history of some mental illness
5:35
Speaker 4: and was doing things that were frightening.
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Speaker 3: He threatened to commit suicide, spent like two weeks in
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Speaker 3: the side corps getting on this medication. She told me, okay,
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Speaker 3: he was at one point accused by his father that
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Speaker 3: he was touching his stepdaughter on like a weekend visit
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Speaker 3: over there, and she kept it real hush with me,
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Speaker 3: so I didn't know the exact detailed. I just knew
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Speaker 3: that he wasn't allowed to go over there because of
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Speaker 3: these allegations. Okay, and his dad called him a pervert,
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Speaker 3: and then she went to DCFF trying to say that
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Speaker 3: Wayne was abusing Driston by accusing him of these things
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Speaker 3: that were not true.
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Speaker 1: It appears that mister Gilberto was interested in protecting his stepdaughters,
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Speaker 1: but miss Johnson took that as an opportunity to weaponize
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Speaker 1: the Illinois Department of Child and Family Services, or DCFS
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Speaker 1: to restrict his access to their son. Meanwhile, Ronnie and
6:34
Speaker 1: his sister Deborah began fearing for GM safety.
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Speaker 5: Yeah, so I used to watch GM every day, So
6:41
Speaker 5: there was things that GM would say to me about
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Speaker 5: things happening in the household with her brother. There was
6:48
Speaker 5: one instance where she told me she woke up with
6:51
Speaker 5: her brother standing over her and she was afraid. And
6:54
Speaker 5: I told her mom about that and she told me, no,
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Speaker 5: she's just lying. She's making things up. And I become
7:00
Speaker 5: concerned and I start telling Ronnie, like some of the
7:03
Speaker 5: things that GM has been saying to me.
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Speaker 3: That's why I was concerned about my daughter living over there.
7:09
Speaker 3: And I confronted Maurie about this. She said oh, no, Tristan,
7:13
Speaker 3: he wouldn't do that. I said, well, why wouldn't my
7:16
Speaker 3: daughter be lying about this? I said, I don't feel safe,
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Speaker 3: especially him coming out of a psych ward, being doped
7:22
Speaker 3: up on all this medication, and then all of a sudden,
7:25
Speaker 3: couple weeks later, you take him off his medication and
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Speaker 3: now he's acting all fucking weird and shit.
7:30
Speaker 5: Then later on we come to find out in court
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Speaker 5: record Tristan has sexually abused his dad's girlfriend's daughters. But
7:39
Speaker 5: none of this was ever brought to court.
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Speaker 1: Which seems like some really important context, almost as important
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Speaker 1: as what happened next.
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Speaker 3: So I told her I was going to take her
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Speaker 3: back to court for full custody because I'm concerned about
7:51
Speaker 3: what's going on here, and I'm going to let the
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Speaker 3: courts know about his psych ward visits, about all this
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Speaker 3: stuff that you say he's not doing but obviously is.
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Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, I threatened to take her back to
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Speaker 3: court for full custody. And then I believe that was
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Speaker 3: on like a Sunday, and here it is Wednesday. Now
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Speaker 3: I'm being accused of sexually molesting my daughter.
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Speaker 1: So it appears that July twelve, twenty fifteen, was the
8:16
Speaker 1: Sunday of the argument, and then Ms Johnson called DCFS.
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Speaker 4: We don't know because we weren't there, but maybe the
8:22
Speaker 4: mom said the daughter had some itchiness and she asked
8:25
Speaker 4: her about it and she said, oh, daddy's weird.
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Speaker 2: He touches me.
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Speaker 4: And that was the initial report that was made, and
8:30
Speaker 4: that report was enough to get in order of protection.
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Speaker 3: The way I found out was through my sister, because
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Speaker 3: my sister watched my daughter. They showed up at my
8:40
Speaker 3: sister's house on Friday.
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Speaker 5: She came by to pay me for the week before
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Speaker 5: because heard my brother split paying me, and she made
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Speaker 5: GM wait outside like Laurie was telling me all these things.
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Speaker 5: And GM was looking through the screen door and she's like, yeah, yeah,
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Speaker 5: I got to tell you something. So I come outside
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Speaker 5: and she runs to the back of my yard and
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Speaker 5: I have like a trampoline and everything because I have kids,
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Speaker 5: and she's like, yeah, I got to tell you something.
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Speaker 5: Daddy touches me. And then she runs off and goes
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Speaker 5: and jumps on the trampoline like it was nothing, no
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Speaker 5: big deal. I go to my brother because obviously, if
9:14
Speaker 5: a child is being hurt, I want to protect that child.
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Speaker 1: GM was examined by their pediatrician, doctor Rhodes, who found
9:22
Speaker 1: no cause for concern. Meanwhile, Aunt Debbie called the family together.
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Speaker 5: I instantly called my mom, my brother, and I'm like, look,
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Speaker 5: this is what's going on. So then Ronnie called Laurie
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Speaker 5: and got Laurie to come over to my mom's house.
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Speaker 5: And she's telling everybody it's too late. DCFS is involved.
9:39
Speaker 5: I've taken her to the doctor. GM. She comes in
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Speaker 5: the house and she wants to sit with her dad like.
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Speaker 5: She actually cried because she wanted to stay with all
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Speaker 5: of us. When Laurie told her it's time to go.
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Speaker 5: You tell them what you have to tell them, and
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Speaker 5: let's go. And she was sitting on Ronnie's lap crying
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Speaker 5: and screaming as Laurie took her to leave. That's actually
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Speaker 5: the last time Ronnie seen her when GM was sitting
10:15
Speaker 5: on my brother's lap. And I'm sitting there talking to
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Speaker 5: her and I'm explaining to her like GM, I'm an adult.
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Speaker 5: I'm here to protect you. If there's anything going on.
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Speaker 5: You can share this with Aunt Debbie and I'll make
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Speaker 5: sure you know I keep you safe. That's what adults
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Speaker 5: are supposed to do. And then She looked at me
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Speaker 5: and she goes, so, if that was happening to Abby,
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Speaker 5: which is my daughter, they're only a few years apart.
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Speaker 5: She's like, would you do the same thing? And I
10:38
Speaker 5: told her, I said, Jim, if any child is ever
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Speaker 5: being hurt, I will always keep them safe. And I
10:44
Speaker 5: kept telling her, this is very important that you tell
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Speaker 5: me the truth. And then she changed her whole story,
10:49
Speaker 5: saying it was a guy at her mom's house, which
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Speaker 5: was confusing to us.
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Speaker 1: MS Johnson had another boyfriend at the time, or perhaps
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Speaker 1: GM meant her older half brother Tristan. Either way, two
11:02
Speaker 1: weeks later, on August fourth, twenty fifteen, MS Johnson made
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Speaker 1: an appointment with DCFS to get the allegation on video.
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Speaker 4: My understanding is that the child had recanted to the
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Speaker 4: mom and was telling the mom it never happened, and
11:19
Speaker 4: that was part of what prompted her to put the
11:22
Speaker 4: child in front of the video camera to try to
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Speaker 4: document these stories against Ronnie and put them on film. Literally,
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Speaker 4: with the mom practically sitting next to her.
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Speaker 3: In this video interview, she's not supposed to know where
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Speaker 3: she's going.
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Speaker 4: Know what was going to be asked, the child starts
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Speaker 4: making accusations against her dad before she's even asked any
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Speaker 4: question by the interviewer, suggesting that she had been coached.
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Speaker 4: Many of the things that she said during the interview
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Speaker 4: are conceded to be not true and fantastical. She said
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Speaker 4: that the police came and arrested my dad, but he
11:54
Speaker 4: got away, who was conceded that no police had come.
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Speaker 4: She said that her dad had a cast in her
12:01
Speaker 4: description of the abuse. He never had a cast on
12:05
Speaker 4: his arm during this period. She said that there was
12:08
Speaker 4: a dog involved. So all these things were conceded to
12:11
Speaker 4: be not true.
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Speaker 3: Everything that video is total lies, except the one that
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Speaker 3: they want to believe is that I sexually abused my child.
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Speaker 4: So yes, she had recanted before she was put in
12:24
Speaker 4: front of the video camera and after to a therapist,
12:28
Speaker 4: to the mom, and to the trial prosecutors, saying it's
12:31
Speaker 4: not true. I was manipulated into saying that. The prosecution
12:36
Speaker 4: then went out and hired a nurse practitioner who had
12:39
Speaker 4: taken a course in sexual abuse and somebody that they
12:42
Speaker 4: had used in the past as a sexual abuse expert,
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Speaker 4: and this woman examined the child, who was at this
12:49
Speaker 4: time was five years old, found nothing abnormal and the
12:54
Speaker 4: prosecution said, well, the child is now saying it never happened,
12:57
Speaker 4: so we can't go forward with this case unless the
12:59
Speaker 4: expert will say that there is physical evidence of abuse.
13:02
Speaker 1: So no charges were filed, but the order of protection
13:05
Speaker 1: remained in place.
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Speaker 4: The mom went to extraordinary lengths to keep the daughter
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Speaker 4: away not only from her father, but from his whole family.
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Speaker 4: It was almost as if the mom was afraid that
13:16
Speaker 4: people that clearly posed no threat to the child if
13:20
Speaker 4: they were with her, that the story that the mom
13:23
Speaker 4: had fabricated would be exposed.
13:26
Speaker 1: And by October and November, Ronnie and his family began
13:29
Speaker 1: winning at family court, and it appeared that they would
13:31
Speaker 1: all be allowed supervised visitation at a DCFS facility called
13:35
Speaker 1: Safe Harbor.
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Speaker 3: The judge said, hey, there's no evidence here. I gotta
13:39
Speaker 3: let them see the kid. Here's Laurie calling up DCFS
13:43
Speaker 3: and letting them know that I'm winning in family court
13:47
Speaker 3: that they need to do something about it.
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Speaker 5: I have all those records where DCFS contacted Shannon. Krueger
13:53
Speaker 5: was like, and it's all in the notes, which is
13:55
Speaker 5: crazy to me. This is what we need you to say.
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Speaker 5: Can you say this? And she said yes, I can
14:01
Speaker 5: say that. Then they told her to contact the prosecutor
14:05
Speaker 5: and let them know that she would state that in court.
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Speaker 4: So the expert then examined the child's medical history and
14:12
Speaker 4: found that there were some urinary tract infections and some
14:16
Speaker 4: genital redness and said, yes, I can say conclusively that
14:20
Speaker 4: is highly suspicious for sexual abuse in a five year
14:24
Speaker 4: old girl. I think she was four at the time
14:26
Speaker 4: that she had this redness.
14:27
Speaker 1: Previously, the child's preediatrician had attributed these issues to potty training,
14:31
Speaker 1: a new bath soap, or a new laundry detergent. Yet
14:35
Speaker 1: Krueger's opinion led to Ronnie's arrest in early December. He
14:39
Speaker 1: was bonded out his family. Court wins were rolled back,
14:43
Speaker 1: but at least his family was granted access to GM.
14:47
Speaker 3: Their first visit was right after the holidays for my
14:50
Speaker 3: whole family. I'm talking like eight adults and like twelve
14:54
Speaker 3: nieces and nephews. They wanted to give her all of
14:56
Speaker 3: her presents for Christmas and all that. So they have
14:59
Speaker 3: a thing over at my sister's house.
15:01
Speaker 5: All the girls in the family, my daughter and then
15:04
Speaker 5: my brother's two daughters and her. They're all pretty close
15:06
Speaker 5: in age, so just seeing them together, playing with their dolls,
15:10
Speaker 5: being able to sit with my mom, having all her
15:12
Speaker 5: grandkids together.
15:13
Speaker 3: Now, mind you, I can't be around at all. I'm
15:16
Speaker 3: at a whole nother house with another witness that says
15:20
Speaker 3: I was there the whole time, after they dropped her
15:23
Speaker 3: back off, after she got all of her presents, all
15:25
Speaker 3: this stuff. Now, this is Lorie. This ain't my daughter.
15:28
Speaker 3: This is Laurie calling the police saying that my daughter
15:32
Speaker 3: told her that I talked to her on the phone.
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Speaker 3: A total fabrication.
15:36
Speaker 1: After checking the call logs and speaking with Ronnie's family,
15:39
Speaker 1: the police confirmed that the accusation was false, and then
15:43
Speaker 1: after the second visitation came another false accusation.
15:46
Speaker 4: The mom calls Protective Services again and said Ronnie's violating it.
15:51
Speaker 4: He's using these grandparent visitations to see his daughter and
15:55
Speaker 4: to sexually abuse her at school.
15:57
Speaker 5: The DCFS they pulled my daughter in question her for
16:00
Speaker 5: two hours. They were trying to see if she could
16:02
Speaker 5: verify if Ronnie was at the visit.
16:04
Speaker 2: That was later conceded to be false.
16:06
Speaker 4: Everyone agreed he never violated the order protection, but it
16:10
Speaker 4: was enough to end these grandparent visitations.
16:13
Speaker 1: Since these two new accusations were provably false. The state
16:17
Speaker 1: only moved forward with the first one with the support
16:21
Speaker 1: of Nurse Krueger.
16:22
Speaker 4: And Ronnie had a conversation with his lawyer prior to
16:26
Speaker 4: trial where he said, I've seen these reports that they're
16:29
Speaker 4: going to call an expert to say that my daughter
16:31
Speaker 4: was abused. Shouldn't we have our own expert, And his
16:34
Speaker 4: lawyer responded, no, we don't because there's no physical evidence.
16:38
Speaker 2: We don't need an expert.
16:39
Speaker 3: Jafer admits she never called or looked around for any
16:43
Speaker 3: expert testimony. If she had, she would have found out
16:47
Speaker 3: that the allegations that Kruger made were totally medically mumbo jumbo.
16:54
Speaker 1: Shannon Krueger's opinion was about to go unchallenged a trial,
16:58
Speaker 1: along with Miss Johnson's credit with her well documented history
17:02
Speaker 1: of weaponizing family court.
17:04
Speaker 4: This lawyer didn't pull the family court file, so she
17:07
Speaker 4: wouldn't have known about the past history, but she did
17:10
Speaker 4: know about the December January incident and the false accusation,
17:15
Speaker 4: and the lawyer just was unable to figure out how
17:18
Speaker 4: to get that in at trial.
17:21
Speaker 3: The judge in my case, Judge McGraw, he wouldn't even
17:23
Speaker 3: allow my witnesses to testify to the second allegation denied
17:27
Speaker 3: it on grounds of relevance.
17:29
Speaker 1: The recantation to the therapist was also denied on grounds
17:33
Speaker 1: of confidentiality, even though it was clearly exculpatory, as were
17:37
Speaker 1: the recantations to the trial prosecutors.
17:40
Speaker 3: They were trying to prefer for trial. That's when she
17:43
Speaker 3: told them that once twice, that my dad didn't do
17:46
Speaker 3: this to me. Also, they admit during those interviews with
17:50
Speaker 3: her that she seemed to cheer up when she heard
17:53
Speaker 3: my name, was excited to see me and was like,
17:55
Speaker 3: oh is my daddy here? Like is that somebody afraid
17:58
Speaker 3: to somebody? No witness recans to you twice, she recants
18:02
Speaker 3: to a therapist, She recants to her mother on thirty
18:06
Speaker 3: times that she says. So she's trying to tell these
18:09
Speaker 3: people this shit didn't happen, but none of them are
18:11
Speaker 3: believe in her.
18:12
Speaker 1: Or maybe they did, considering the affidavits they signed about
18:16
Speaker 1: the recantations, as well as the offer they made to
18:19
Speaker 1: Ronnie prior to trial.
18:21
Speaker 3: Yeah, they offered me probation, no jail time. What type
18:24
Speaker 3: of guilty man is not going to take a deal
18:26
Speaker 3: for no jail time? In probation. The only person that
18:29
Speaker 3: is not going to take that deal is the innocent
18:31
Speaker 3: person that believed in the justice system and has the
18:33
Speaker 3: truth behind their side. I turned that opportunity down.
18:36
Speaker 4: Even though he's facing twenty years. He said, no, I
18:39
Speaker 4: can't because it requires me to say that I harmed
18:42
Speaker 4: my daughter and I never would have harmed my daughter.
18:45
Speaker 1: Because he refused this deal, Ronnie was taken to trial
18:48
Speaker 1: in twenty seventeen, where curiously, first the state called GM's pediatrician,
18:53
Speaker 1: doctor Rhodes, to the stand and asked about the history
18:57
Speaker 1: of discomfort.
18:58
Speaker 3: Rhodes she admits, Hey, this could be something simple as
19:02
Speaker 3: hygiene or an allergic reaction to laundry soap or something
19:07
Speaker 3: like that, and they told the jury to totally disregard
19:11
Speaker 3: their witness.
19:12
Speaker 1: Then they revited Rhodes with nurse Krueger.
19:15
Speaker 3: Krueger has asked the same questions that the Rhodes testify to,
19:19
Speaker 3: and she would not admit that could be caused by
19:23
Speaker 3: something simple as hygiene issues or allergic reaction from bubble
19:27
Speaker 3: bass or laundry detergent.
19:30
Speaker 1: And then GM was brought to the stand.
19:33
Speaker 4: This is a matter of Illinois law. They had to
19:35
Speaker 4: put her on the stand in order to put in
19:36
Speaker 4: the videotape of her prior statement, but the child was
19:40
Speaker 4: no longer accusing her father of a crime. They were
19:43
Speaker 4: very concerned, the prosecutors, because it had been more than
19:46
Speaker 4: two years since she had last seen her dad.
19:50
Speaker 3: Oh yes, I was very emotional and just see in
19:53
Speaker 3: her face. It was just like it was crazy. And
19:57
Speaker 3: as soon as my daughter walked in the you should
20:00
Speaker 3: stopped the trial. And basically told the judge was that, hey,
20:04
Speaker 3: we're afraid that she's going to run up and just
20:07
Speaker 3: give him a hug, and that's not going to look
20:09
Speaker 3: good in front of the jury.
20:10
Speaker 4: The judge's suggestion, and the prosecutors carried this out, is
20:13
Speaker 4: to create sort of a human shield so that when
20:15
Speaker 4: the child was brought to the stands, she would not
20:17
Speaker 4: be able to see her father and so she would
20:20
Speaker 4: not be tempted to go and run and hug him.
20:23
Speaker 1: So a human shield obstructed GM's view of her father.
20:27
Speaker 1: And GM did say that her father touched her cuckoo
20:31
Speaker 1: with his finger, but it was said in a vague
20:34
Speaker 1: and non sexual context, and GM didn't recall any details
20:39
Speaker 1: of a sexual nature. So the exchange went, quote, do
20:42
Speaker 1: you remember if he touched you on the inside or
20:45
Speaker 1: the outside of your cuckoo? She replied, uh huh, you
20:49
Speaker 1: don't remember, she said, no. Do you remember what it
20:52
Speaker 1: felt like? She says, well, it hurt it a little bit,
20:56
Speaker 1: but not too much, like getting your ears pierced. Did
21:00
Speaker 1: you ever see daddy's private she says, I don't remember.
21:03
Speaker 1: Did daddy ever touch you anywhere else on your body
21:06
Speaker 1: that he shouldn't have touched? She says no. Do you
21:09
Speaker 1: miss your daddy? She answered yes. Do you love your daddy?
21:13
Speaker 1: She said yes? And there they're back and forth ends
21:16
Speaker 1: right there. That's an end quote.
21:18
Speaker 3: The prosecution Hader preps and is very vague on whether
21:22
Speaker 3: you could consider this sexual abuse. Well, did your daddy
21:26
Speaker 3: touch me? Yeah, he touched which could be construed as anything.
21:30
Speaker 3: I was a responsible single parent. Yes, I bade my child. Yes,
21:34
Speaker 3: I brush my daughter's hair, I made her brush her teeth,
21:37
Speaker 3: I dressed her. Yes, I did all that. A responsible
21:40
Speaker 3: parent does all those things. To say that sexual abuse
21:44
Speaker 3: is just.
21:44
Speaker 1: Crazy, But that testimony came with the context of the
21:48
Speaker 1: video statement, and despite the absurdities and untrue details, it
21:53
Speaker 1: appears to have made a powerful impression on the jury,
21:56
Speaker 1: who subsequently were deprived of knowing about the false accusations
22:01
Speaker 1: and Miss Johnson's history with family court, despite Debra's best efforts.
22:05
Speaker 5: When we testified the only thing when we tried to
22:08
Speaker 5: bring up that date, they obviously kept it out of
22:10
Speaker 5: the court. They would seal everything, They would go up
22:13
Speaker 5: there and talk to the judge. Then the judge would decide,
22:15
Speaker 5: this can't be discussed because it has nothing to do
22:18
Speaker 5: with it. And we kept trying to say, yes it does.
22:21
Speaker 5: It's a pattern of these lies that are continuing. It
22:24
Speaker 5: like it totally had something to do with the case,
22:27
Speaker 5: and they kept all of that out of the court documents.
22:30
Speaker 2: This to me was incredibly troubling.
22:32
Speaker 1: Almost as troubling as the prosecution, the court, and her
22:37
Speaker 1: mother repeatedly ignoring GM's recantations. And when Miss Johnson was
22:42
Speaker 1: asked about the July twelfth, twenty fifteen, argument with Ronnie,
22:46
Speaker 1: she said it wasn't about suing for full custody or Tristan,
22:50
Speaker 1: but rather about where GM would go to school. But
22:53
Speaker 1: that testimony went unchallenged, and with that jury deliberation predictably
22:59
Speaker 1: went very quickly.
23:00
Speaker 3: They delivered rated two hours and they came back in
23:06
Speaker 3: and said guilty, and it was over. I went from
23:12
Speaker 3: not spending one day in jail in my whole life
23:15
Speaker 3: to being cuffed up and brought away into a prison
23:19
Speaker 3: system for twenty years, and I've been here ever since.
23:40
Speaker 3: Prison is tough, man. Every day I wake up and
23:42
Speaker 3: it's a nightmare. Man. Prison is designed to break you
23:46
Speaker 3: down every single day, and I refuse to let them
23:50
Speaker 3: do that. Now. This is what counts me every day,
23:53
Speaker 3: is that my daughter has been left in her refuser's
23:57
Speaker 3: hands and continue to be used by the state and Laurie,
24:04
Speaker 3: And I'm fearful every day for her safety. And she's
24:08
Speaker 3: the most important thing to me. If she could know
24:11
Speaker 3: the truth and I knew that she was safe, I'd
24:14
Speaker 3: have no problem doing whatever they needed. If they needed
24:17
Speaker 3: me here for the rest of my life, I could
24:19
Speaker 3: hear lists or my life's already ruined. I want her
24:22
Speaker 3: to be safe, and I want her to know the truth,
24:24
Speaker 3: and that's the bottom line of it. And I will
24:27
Speaker 3: always maintain my innocence no matter how this goes, and
24:31
Speaker 3: I'll never give up fighting. I'll fight this to the
24:33
Speaker 3: day I die.
24:35
Speaker 1: Ronnie's direct appeal was handled by another lawyer soon after
24:38
Speaker 1: his conviction. But unfortunately you can't bring in new evidence
24:41
Speaker 1: like the defense expert that should have been hired, or
24:44
Speaker 1: evidence of false allegations, et cetera. Of course, just don't
24:48
Speaker 1: allow it.
24:48
Speaker 4: But the lawyer made a fairly strong argument that the
24:51
Speaker 4: evidence was insufficient. As a matter of law and due
24:54
Speaker 4: process says, the prosecution must present evidence to prove guilt,
24:58
Speaker 4: otherwise the or should set you free. But what the
25:01
Speaker 4: appellate court said is well, even though the child never
25:05
Speaker 4: made any accusation at trial, there was an expert to
25:08
Speaker 4: corroborate what was said on videotape. The court went on
25:11
Speaker 4: to say, the defense put on no evidence to rebut
25:14
Speaker 4: this so we have to sort of accept that it
25:16
Speaker 4: was true.
25:17
Speaker 1: Now, I'd like you to remember that the court noted
25:19
Speaker 1: the absence of what would have been helpful evidence at trial,
25:22
Speaker 1: as the next part of the fight would be to
25:25
Speaker 1: prove that Ronnie had been deprived of his right to
25:28
Speaker 1: effective counsel.
25:29
Speaker 4: Part of the problem is the lawyer that represented Ronnie
25:32
Speaker 4: is now a judge in Winnebago County. She was appointed
25:37
Speaker 4: to a vacancy in the court by the judge that
25:40
Speaker 4: presided over Ronnie's trial.
25:43
Speaker 3: Another thing weird too, is after Schaeffer loses the trial,
25:47
Speaker 3: Judge mcgrall teach congratulates her, Like, what kind of person
25:51
Speaker 3: is like, Oh, you did such a good job, but
25:53
Speaker 3: you lost the case. I found that very weird. And
25:57
Speaker 3: then Judge mcral puts Schaeffer up for the judge ship. Right,
26:01
Speaker 3: there's a lot of suspicion with that. Right after my case.
26:05
Speaker 1: In a case where raising ineffective assists of counsel also
26:09
Speaker 1: calls the trial judges judgment into question, this doesn't bode well.
26:14
Speaker 1: It stinks, but those are the cards that they were dealt.
26:17
Speaker 1: So Leonard raised the issue that his attorney had failed
26:21
Speaker 1: to get Miss Johnson's history in family court as well
26:24
Speaker 1: as her having made false allegations. She wasn't able to
26:27
Speaker 1: get any of this admitted into the proceedings, in addition
26:31
Speaker 1: the failure to hire a defense expert to rebut the
26:34
Speaker 1: testimony of the States expert.
26:36
Speaker 4: I had a conversation with this lawyer when I came
26:38
Speaker 4: into the case, and she confirmed to me that she
26:40
Speaker 4: made no attempt to contact any experts for the defense. Now,
26:45
Speaker 4: it took me probably less than a couple hours to
26:48
Speaker 4: make some phone calls and find somebody, a well respected,
26:52
Speaker 4: board certified guynecologist that had experience with prepubescent teens and
26:57
Speaker 4: was able to tell me very quickly what their expert
27:01
Speaker 4: told the jury was complete nonsense. That this is very
27:04
Speaker 4: common in prepubescent girls to have episodes of urinary tract
27:09
Speaker 4: infections and general redness and itchiness, especially when they're learning
27:13
Speaker 4: toilet skills and all of that.
27:15
Speaker 1: Doctor Jack McCubbin said, quote, there is no medical evidence
27:19
Speaker 1: of sexual abuse, and it is imperative that the jury
27:22
Speaker 1: not be left with that perception end quote.
27:24
Speaker 4: The post conviction was filed with I think something like
27:29
Speaker 4: seventy exhibits, including doctor mccubbin's report, the family law documents,
27:35
Speaker 4: DCFS records, which showed that the girl had recanted to
27:39
Speaker 4: her therapist. It was conceded at trial that she recanted
27:43
Speaker 4: to the trial prosecutors. There was also a report from
27:47
Speaker 4: a child psychologist, because the defense really should have called
27:50
Speaker 4: a child psychologist, because the prosecution told the jury I'm paraphrasing,
27:55
Speaker 4: but inclosing argument that kids don't make these sort of
27:59
Speaker 4: things up. When kids tell stories, it's about dinosaurs, ghosts,
28:03
Speaker 4: and monsters. It's not about daddy touching me. What a
28:06
Speaker 4: child's psychologist would have done is explain the situations when
28:10
Speaker 4: there's a negative influence from the mother when children do fabricate.
28:14
Speaker 2: The other thing that the.
28:15
Speaker 4: Prosecution said is it because the person that was asking
28:18
Speaker 4: the questions on the videotape was a forensically trained interviewer
28:22
Speaker 4: that guaranteed the accuracy of what the child was saying,
28:26
Speaker 4: and this child psychologist would have explained to the jura
28:29
Speaker 4: is that, in fact, that forensically trained interviewer was not
28:32
Speaker 4: using very good practices, including the mother bringing the child
28:36
Speaker 4: into the room and placing her in front of the camera,
28:39
Speaker 4: and the fact that the child started making accusations without
28:42
Speaker 4: even being asked a question by the interviewer, which is
28:45
Speaker 4: highly suspicious that the.
28:47
Speaker 2: Child had been coached.
28:48
Speaker 4: The other thing that we had asked for is we
28:50
Speaker 4: wanted the child's counseling records because we had direct evidence
28:55
Speaker 4: that the child had told her therapist that this never happened.
29:00
Speaker 4: Counseling records are private, but if you can show a
29:02
Speaker 4: compelling reason that we need this information to free an
29:05
Speaker 4: innocent person, the judge should order it. And the judge
29:08
Speaker 4: did not, so that was part of the post conviction petition.
29:11
Speaker 4: As I said, there were dozens and dozens of exhibits
29:14
Speaker 4: that was presented.
29:15
Speaker 2: To the trial judge who was now asked.
29:18
Speaker 4: To find that lawyer that he had appointed to the
29:20
Speaker 4: bench had been ineffective in this case.
29:23
Speaker 1: And as expected, the motion was denied.
29:25
Speaker 3: She's part of the club, she's a judge. Now got
29:28
Speaker 3: one person covering the other person's ass all the way up.
29:31
Speaker 3: Just look at his explanation of denying my post conviction.
29:35
Speaker 3: He didn't even give an explanation. Mister Goodman had to
29:38
Speaker 3: file the motion for reasoning and he was pissed about
29:41
Speaker 3: that that we would even question why he denied it. Well,
29:45
Speaker 3: you didn't give us an explanation why.
29:48
Speaker 1: So that decision was appealed to the very same court
29:51
Speaker 1: that denied the direct appeal, considering that they had noted
29:55
Speaker 1: two years prior that the defense had not rebutted the
29:57
Speaker 1: state's expert. Their ruling was.
30:00
Speaker 4: The same court is looking at the appeal of the
30:02
Speaker 4: post conviction case, in which evidence has been presented in
30:05
Speaker 4: the form of a report from a gynecologist with forty
30:09
Speaker 4: years of experience saying that what the state's expert said
30:13
Speaker 4: at trial was complete nonsense. And I would just point
30:16
Speaker 4: out that the state never disputed that they basically conceded. Yeah,
30:19
Speaker 4: that's true, but you should still affirm this conviction. The
30:23
Speaker 4: state sort of came up with this excuse, Well, it's cumulative,
30:26
Speaker 4: there's other evidence that the girl had told some lies
30:29
Speaker 4: that there's other evidence that the girl had trouble wiping herself. Therefore,
30:33
Speaker 4: we don't need to hear from doctor mccobbn. It would
30:36
Speaker 4: have been cumulative to call doctor McCubbin.
30:38
Speaker 2: Again.
30:39
Speaker 4: This is complete nonsense. But the appellate court twisted itself
30:42
Speaker 4: in knots in order to uphold this conviction and keep
30:45
Speaker 4: this innocent person in jail and avoid making a finding
30:48
Speaker 4: of ineffective assistance against this colleague on the bench.
30:52
Speaker 1: So it appears that Nurse Krueger's testimony the only thing
30:55
Speaker 1: that kept them from ruling for insufficient evidence on direct appeal,
30:58
Speaker 1: where the expert would have been key. Now, with some
31:02
Speaker 1: mental gymnastics, that court decided that the presentation of such
31:06
Speaker 1: an expert was now cumulative to what had been presented.
31:10
Speaker 1: Make it make sense, I can't so. Additionally, the Illinois
31:16
Speaker 1: Supreme Court chose not to hear the case. So Leonard
31:20
Speaker 1: and Ronnie moved on to federal habeas.
31:23
Speaker 4: The case is pending in front of a federal district
31:25
Speaker 4: judge in Rockford, Ian Johnson, a judge with a very
31:28
Speaker 4: good reputation. We've asked for a hearing in front of him,
31:32
Speaker 4: and we'll see what happens. The case is fully briefed.
31:35
Speaker 4: The state filed their response, We filed a reply. Those
31:37
Speaker 4: are all sitting on the judge's desk waiting for him
31:40
Speaker 4: to make a ruling.
31:42
Speaker 1: Well, we hope Ronnie is granted a hearing where the
31:44
Speaker 1: judge can recognize both his innocence and the violations of
31:47
Speaker 1: his rights. In the meantime, there's a young girl still
31:51
Speaker 1: out there without her dad.
31:53
Speaker 5: Even why Ronnie's been locked up all these years. We
31:55
Speaker 5: continued in family court, fighting and fighting, and where my
31:58
Speaker 5: mom was finally approved to just have visits with GM
32:01
Speaker 5: with Lourie present, and it'd always be like they go
32:04
Speaker 5: out to eat, or they'd take her shopping or something.
32:07
Speaker 5: We did get a guardian at lightam involved. My daughter
32:10
Speaker 5: was allowed to go to the visits with my mom.
32:12
Speaker 5: But then when I finally got allowed my first very
32:15
Speaker 5: first visit with my daughter, my mom, GM, Laurie and
32:19
Speaker 5: Laurie's mother. We were at McDonald's. She went back and
32:23
Speaker 5: told the court that I was questioning GM about everything
32:26
Speaker 5: again because you know, obviously you're not allowed to talk
32:28
Speaker 5: about any of it, and then all visits were stopped again.
32:32
Speaker 5: I even asked the guardian at Lightham to come to
32:34
Speaker 5: the visit, like none of this happened. And they're still
32:37
Speaker 5: using the court to say now you guys can't see her.
32:40
Speaker 5: And I know why they're keeping us away from her
32:42
Speaker 5: because the truth will come out. It will come out
32:44
Speaker 5: one day when she's old enough and she can say
32:47
Speaker 5: what happened. It's all going to come out.
32:49
Speaker 4: The one other aspect of this case, it's so tragic.
32:52
Speaker 4: This is secondhand information, but it is something that would
32:57
Speaker 4: not be hard to understand, is that she was basically
33:02
Speaker 4: used by the prosecution to put her father in prison
33:05
Speaker 4: for a crime that he didn't commit. And the fact
33:07
Speaker 4: that the child is telling you and telling everyone that
33:10
Speaker 4: will listen to her, this never happened. I think as
33:13
Speaker 4: she has gained some awareness of what her role was,
33:18
Speaker 4: it's been very difficult for her and apparently there was
33:22
Speaker 4: some suicidal ideation in the child.
33:26
Speaker 5: To this day, she's still having lots of issues between
33:29
Speaker 5: her mom and her brother, and there's no help for her.
33:31
Speaker 5: I recently found out Tristan was arrested. Laurie stated she
33:35
Speaker 5: came home from work. He was drunk under the influence
33:38
Speaker 5: and had destroyed and broke everything in the house. They
33:40
Speaker 5: did arrest him, and they actually put him in the
33:43
Speaker 5: hospital that night. They said they had to strap him
33:46
Speaker 5: to a bed for over six hours and they couldn't
33:48
Speaker 5: release them because of Laurie's safety. And in the police
33:52
Speaker 5: report Laurie puts she's afraid of him and this has
33:55
Speaker 5: happened on another occasion. But if they couldn't release them
33:58
Speaker 5: for Lorie's safety, what about GM safety?
34:00
Speaker 2: This girl is now, what is she twelve? Thirteen years old?
34:04
Speaker 5: She is fourteen.
34:05
Speaker 4: So I'm hoping that someday we will be able to
34:09
Speaker 4: have some contact with her and maybe the truth can
34:12
Speaker 4: come out to not only set Ronnie free, but at
34:14
Speaker 4: least an attempt to right the wrong that was done
34:17
Speaker 4: to them.
34:18
Speaker 1: And hopefully Judge Johnston can give Ronnie the relief that
34:21
Speaker 1: he so richly deserves and needs. And with that, we're
34:24
Speaker 1: going to go to closing arguments, first Leonard, then Debrah
34:28
Speaker 1: and Finally, Ronnie, thank you all for being here. I'm
34:31
Speaker 1: going to switch off my mic, kick back in my
34:33
Speaker 1: chair with my headphones on and just listen to anything
34:37
Speaker 1: else you have to say.
34:38
Speaker 4: I always had the feeling that deep down people want
34:41
Speaker 4: to do the right thing. And one of the things
34:44
Speaker 4: that they don't teach you in law school is that
34:46
Speaker 4: you can be right on the facts and the law
34:49
Speaker 4: and still lose if you have judges that have a
34:51
Speaker 4: different agenda. And that's a very painful lesson for lawyers,
34:55
Speaker 4: especially lawyers that do criminal defense work and really believe
34:59
Speaker 4: in some of their co clients. And I think what
35:01
Speaker 4: you're doing is probably the most important. As they say,
35:04
Speaker 4: sunlight is the best disinfect and people know that a
35:08
Speaker 4: wrong was done, and I think if they think that
35:10
Speaker 4: it can be done in darkness, then there is little
35:13
Speaker 4: incentive for people to want to come forward and right
35:16
Speaker 4: or wrong, because it is hard for prosecutors to admit
35:19
Speaker 4: that they made mistakes. It is hard for judges to
35:21
Speaker 4: admit that they made mistakes. It is hard for lawyers.
35:24
Speaker 4: But let's make this right.
35:26
Speaker 5: I've been there since day one. I've gone to every
35:28
Speaker 5: court thing. I have all the documents and me having
35:32
Speaker 5: my own daughter, I couldn't imagine your kids mean everything
35:35
Speaker 5: to you and then for somebody to use your kid
35:37
Speaker 5: against you for their own personal gain. That's what's really
35:41
Speaker 5: hard for me to understand. I just want them to
35:43
Speaker 5: see how the justice system is wrong and how it
35:47
Speaker 5: incarcerates completely innocent people and rips lifes apart. Not only
35:52
Speaker 5: for my brother, not only was he wronged, GM was
35:55
Speaker 5: wronged by the system too. I used to tell Ronnie
35:59
Speaker 5: that one day we be standing somewhere talking about how
36:02
Speaker 5: the truth would come out and people would really see
36:06
Speaker 5: what a person around he really is instead of what's
36:09
Speaker 5: been cast upon him. It will happen just one day.
36:13
Speaker 3: Our justice system is broken from the foundation to the top.
36:17
Speaker 3: All the checks and balances that are supposed to protect
36:20
Speaker 3: an innocent man like myself fails. It failed because it
36:24
Speaker 3: is run by corrupt people who only see people like
36:27
Speaker 3: myself as money and a conviction rate, and they care
36:31
Speaker 3: nothing about true justice or the truth. I think everyone
36:35
Speaker 3: who has heard and knows my story and say that
36:38
Speaker 3: I was not given a fair trial, I was deliberately
36:41
Speaker 3: denied a fair trial. When it comes to sex abuse allegations,
36:45
Speaker 3: I have learned that no evidence is needed for a conviction.
36:48
Speaker 3: All the players in our justice system know how sensitive
36:52
Speaker 3: the public is towards sex abuse, and they exploit this
36:55
Speaker 3: fear to convict innocent people like myself, all for money,
36:59
Speaker 3: all for power, not for real justice or public safety.
37:03
Speaker 3: This is bigger than me. This can easily happen to anyone.
37:07
Speaker 3: It could happen to you, to someone in your family.
37:11
Speaker 3: This must stop. The system has failed me and my daughter.
37:15
Speaker 3: To the people listening, I need your help. These corrupt
37:19
Speaker 3: individuals work in the shadows. They don't want cases like
37:23
Speaker 3: mine to be in the public eye. So I need
37:25
Speaker 3: all those who are listening to be my voice to
37:28
Speaker 3: expose what happened to me. The whole people that listen
37:31
Speaker 3: to this, the bigger and brighter that light becomes, and
37:34
Speaker 3: then these corrupt individuals won't be able to hide in
37:37
Speaker 3: those shadows no more, and the truth, God willing will prevail.
37:42
Speaker 3: I am pleading with all those listening to talk to
37:45
Speaker 3: everyone they know and encourage them to listen to this podcast.
37:49
Speaker 3: Thank you for your time and God bless you.
37:57
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen
38:00
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Speaker 1: my fellow executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartis, and Jeff Kliber.
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