Latest / Two Doting Dads with Matty J & Ash / #274 Keira Rumble: The Rollercoaster Of Motherhood

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#274 Keira Rumble: The Rollercoaster Of Motherhood · Two Doting Dads with Matty J & Ash

• 0:15
  Speaker 1: Matt, you and I both know how hard parenting is,
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: and today's guest has been through hell and back.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: Kira Rumble, she is a successful founder and CEO of
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: the Crumbled Group that creates specialised products for mums, such
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: as drinks, skincare and, Ash, very tasty treats. She's even
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: got a cookbook.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: But it's her role as a mum. To her two
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: kids that she's most proud of.
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Kira says that she wanted to be a mum
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: her whole life, but when it came to try for
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: a baby, her journey to motherhood was nothing like she
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: ever imagined.
• 0:47
  Speaker 3: I was shocked to hear about the multiple pregnancy losses,
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: the severe pregnancy sickness and the postnatal depression on top
• 0:54
  Speaker 3: of a postpartum period that was far from what she
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: had imagined being a new mum would be.
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: It's quite a full-on, very vulnerable chat. So just a
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: reminder that We do talk about topics of depression and suicide.
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: So if you are struggling or you know someone who is,
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: we will put links in the show notes of where
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: to get help.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: He's Kira Rumble.
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: Welcome back to Two Doting Dads and One Doting Mum.
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: I am Matty J. I'm Ash.
• 1:18
  Speaker 4: And I'm Kira.
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: And this is a podcast all about parenting. It is
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: the good, it is the bad.
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: And the relatable.
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: What was it?
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: The relatable. I haven't been here for a week.
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: And if you come for advice. Shut up.
• 1:32
  Speaker 4: Me? Go, go.
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: Finish.
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: We don't give advice.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: No, we don't.
• 1:36
  Speaker 4: No advice.
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: You're allowed to.
• 1:38
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: If you've got it. We have to apologise because this
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: morning has been one of our worst.
• 1:44
  Speaker 4: I'm here for it. I feel like this is the
• 1:46
  Speaker 4: first time meeting you guys and I feel like this
• 1:49
  Speaker 4: is a normal thing.
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: So I rocked up first, which.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's two weeks in a row.
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: I'm normally very late. So I arrived first. There was
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: a note wedged into the door and I pulled out
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: the note being like. Love letter. Yeah, I was like,
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: who is it? oh, wait, don't like us because we're
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: too loud.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: Me specifically.
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: I thought maybe it was like a formal complaint, but
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: it was from the energy people saying you're disconnected. And
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: I was like, what? We forgot that when you move
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: into a new property, you need to connect the power.
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: I've only ever moved into a residential, so you can ignorance.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: I would say.
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: And we then counted nine letters from the power company.
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: And so we have, we've hijacked power from the kitchenette
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: and we put it in here where we've made Kira
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: sit through like an hour.
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: We are behind.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: She's probably thinking, what the fuck is this?
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: There's 30 meters of extension cord. I was like to
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: JB Hi-Fi, I'm like, what's your biggest extension cord?
• 2:45
  Speaker 4: Is that why you went down to go get extensions?
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: You would have seen me run in the streets. And
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: they were like, we only have 10 meter ones. I
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: was like, well, that's not going to do is it?
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: So we just want to say very sorry.
• 2:56
  Speaker 4: That's okay. It's been a, it's been an experience.
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I'll take responsibility.
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: I think I also put my hand up to say
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: that I would buy the water for guests as well,
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: which is not here.
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: I'm drinking out of a jar.
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 3:08
  Speaker 4: Just, just. That's because you forgot your bottle though, right?
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 3:11
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: Kira, if you ever come back in the future, just
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: know that it will be a vastly different experience.
• 3:18
  Speaker 4: It's okay.
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: Don't vastly. Don't set us up like that.
• 3:21
  Speaker 4: You guys are in suits and you're all polished next time.
• 3:25
  Speaker 4: You're like, hello.
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: Yes, this is actually what we really like. Look, how
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: we usually start these is we want to know a
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: little bit about the person, which is yourself. And we
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: want to know, do you recall the most amount of
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: trouble you got in as a child?
• 3:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah. So.
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: From the Central Coast. This is going to be good.
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: Strap in, guys.
• 3:42
  Speaker 4: Listen, I used to swear a lot in my teens
• 3:45
  Speaker 4: and I remember my mum used to wash my mouth
• 3:47
  Speaker 4: out with soap all the time and then dabbled with
• 3:50
  Speaker 4: a bit of chilli in my mouth. I asked her
• 3:54
  Speaker 4: this and she's like, I never did that. Do not
• 3:56
  Speaker 4: say that because I'll sound like a monster.
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: Always deny it, don't they?
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: Always.
• 4:00
  Speaker 4: I'm like, I remember differently.
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: When my kids swear or they're naughty, I give them
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: sourdough toast because it cuts inside out. Sorry, that's horrible.
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: It's better than soap.
• 4:11
  Speaker 4: What kind of sourdough toast have you got?
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: Just the crust.
• 4:13
  Speaker 4: Oh, just the crust.
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: How old were you when this started?
• 4:17
  Speaker 4: Oh, like 12, 13.
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: And so run me through a scenario where it would happen.
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: So you would be like, oh, fucking hell.
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: You didn't sound like that. That was just like a
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: knee-jerk reaction.
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: Fucking hell.
• 4:30
  Speaker 4: Fucking hell. I can't even recall. I just remember this
• 4:34
  Speaker 4: one spot where I was in front of the mirror
• 4:37
  Speaker 4: and she was just like rubbing that bar of soap
• 4:39
  Speaker 4: and then I was like, and I was like, fuck
• 4:42
  Speaker 4: you after.
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: And then she was like.
• 4:45
  Speaker 4: And she's like you're not gonna learn are you oh
• 4:48
  Speaker 4: my god i love my mom so much she's like
• 4:52
  Speaker 4: the love of my life.
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah different times.
• 4:54
  Speaker 4: Different times there was no information then and my daughter
• 4:58
  Speaker 4: has definitely come back to really like show me that
• 5:01
  Speaker 4: i was fucked she could use a bit of soap
• 5:03
  Speaker 4: you reckon oh yeah she'll probably get the soap too.
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: I never had the soap me either.
• 5:08
  Speaker 4: Didn't you i was like oh this is just a
• 5:09
  Speaker 4: millennial thing this is what It was.
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: Always threatened by my grandmother mainly, but it was the
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: wooden spoon or the hard plastic spoon.
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: How long would the taste last?
• 5:19
  Speaker 4: Oh, not that long. But you'd get it, like, right
• 5:21
  Speaker 4: in your teeth and you'd.
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: Have to clean it.
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: It's a full bar too. It's a full bar. It's
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: not shower gel.
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: What was that brand of soap? Dove?
• 5:30
  Speaker 4: No, it's that, like, that soap.
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that thick stuff.
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: Is it green, that one?
• 5:36
  Speaker 4: No.
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: Oh, green.
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: Nah.
• 5:38
  Speaker 4: I used to talk a lot when I was little.
• 5:41
  Speaker 4: And I couldn't concentrate. Now I've got ADHD and autism
• 5:43
  Speaker 4: so that's like obvious. That'll do it.
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: What's your swearing like now?
• 5:47
  Speaker 4: Oh, I swear a bit, yeah.
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: That didn't stop.
• 5:51
  Speaker 4: It didn't prevent me from.
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: It didn't work. You can swear here. We don't have
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: any soap and we encourage.
• 5:56
  Speaker 4: Great, thank you.
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: If you want to get it all out here, you
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: can because, yeah, we're pretty bad.
• 6:00
  Speaker 4: You know those videos of those kids where the parents
• 6:02
  Speaker 4: are like, okay, we're going to put up a camera
• 6:04
  Speaker 4: and you can swear and then they're going to shut
• 6:05
  Speaker 4: the door?
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: So good. I feel like it. Yeah, yeah.
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: This is that space for you if you want curiosity.
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: It's on camera too.
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we can hold it against you later on.
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: Look, I was reading the rap sheet. You know, Vic
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: puts together a very thorough bit of research and as
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: I was going through it, I was thinking to myself,
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: holy fuck, your motherhood journey has been full on.
• 6:30
  Speaker 4: It's a lot.
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: Full on. Yeah.
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: Right from the beginning, right from the get-go.
• 6:34
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: So you had nine pregnancies. Of those nine, you have
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: two beautiful kids.
• 6:39
  Speaker 4: So it's 11 now.
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: That's 11.
• 6:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's been 11 total.
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: We've been fed incorrect information.
• 6:44
  Speaker 4: Maybe I might update that with Chelsea. But, yeah, 11
• 6:48
  Speaker 4: pregnancies and two living babies.
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: That is full on.
• 6:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: Do you know what the issue was when you were
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: trying to fall pregnant to then go to IVF?
• 6:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah. So I got unexplained infertility a lot. And then.
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: Is that a term?
• 7:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: Is that what they use? Yep. Okay. Yeah.
• 7:06
  Speaker 4: And I was like, nah, no way. Like you don't
• 7:09
  Speaker 4: have this many losses. And I had a heterotopic pregnancy,
• 7:12
  Speaker 4: which was like my biggest doozy. So it was pregnancy
• 7:16
  Speaker 4: in my uterus and then a pregnancy in my fallopian tube.
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: Wow. This is the first I've ever heard about. Yeah.
• 7:20
  Speaker 4: So twins and one got stuck in my tube. And
• 7:24
  Speaker 4: so I've for like four or five weeks kept on
• 7:27
  Speaker 4: going up to the hospital and this doesn't feel like
• 7:29
  Speaker 4: a normal miscarriage. And they're like, oh, it's a miscarriage.
• 7:31
  Speaker 4: And then it got to the point where I was
• 7:33
  Speaker 4: like keeled over. I had so much like shoulder tip
• 7:35
  Speaker 4: pain because if you're bleeding internally, you get shoulder tip
• 7:37
  Speaker 4: pain sometimes. Really? Yeah.
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: I'm learning so much already.
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 7:41
  Speaker 4: And so I was like, there's just something not quite right.
• 7:44
  Speaker 4: And so I pushed to get a scan and they
• 7:46
  Speaker 4: were like, just go to your local scanning place. And
• 7:49
  Speaker 4: then they're like, yeah, you need to go straight up.
• 7:50
  Speaker 4: You're bleeding internally. And so I had a ruptured ectopic too.
• 7:54
  Speaker 4: Oh my goodness.
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: Do you recall what number? Pregnancy this one was?
• 7:59
  Speaker 4: I think this is like fifth and sixth from memory. Yeah,
• 8:03
  Speaker 4: and it was at that point I was like something's
• 8:05
  Speaker 4: not right. Like why is this happening?
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: And you might have said, sorry, how many weeks pregnant
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: were you at this stage?
• 8:10
  Speaker 4: So when I went in I was about six, but
• 8:13
  Speaker 4: it took four weeks for them to be like, okay, no,
• 8:15
  Speaker 4: there's like it's not just a miscarriage.
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: Oh, my goodness.
• 8:19
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it was really– It's a long.
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: Time for you to be bleeding internally. I can imagine,
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: I can't imagine how uncomfortable that would have been.
• 8:24
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, so I don't think it was, yeah, I
• 8:26
  Speaker 4: think it was the last few days where it finally ruptured,
• 8:29
  Speaker 4: but it was really intense and really hard.
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: And what did they call that again? What did you
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: call it?
• 8:34
  Speaker 4: A heterotopic.
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: And do you know how common that is?
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: Do we know?
• 8:38
  Speaker 4: No, I think it's like one in 20,000 or something.
• 8:40
  Speaker 4: Don't quote me on that.
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: Okay. No, we'll put it on a T-shirt.
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, 120,000.
• 8:46
  Speaker 4: And I think that was when I started like speaking
• 8:48
  Speaker 4: about it online and then that's when I realised there's
• 8:51
  Speaker 4: something more than just unexplained. And so I went to
• 8:55
  Speaker 4: one IVF doctor, had surgery because I had really bad
• 8:58
  Speaker 4: pain from the ectopic rupture and then they found endo.
• 9:02
  Speaker 4: So I was like, great, is it endo?
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: Endometriosis.
• 9:05
  Speaker 4: Endometriosis, yeah. And then kept on having miscarriages and I
• 9:09
  Speaker 4: was like, no, there's something else. So I swapped IVF doctors.
• 9:12
  Speaker 4: And then they found out that I have a blood
• 9:13
  Speaker 4: clotting condition. So I was like, okay, there's some answers.
• 9:17
  Speaker 4: And so I think that even though when I was
• 9:20
  Speaker 4: still doing IVF it was very much unexplained, I believe
• 9:23
  Speaker 4: it's the blood clotting issue that was.
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: The cause for the miscarriages.
• 9:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: And with your journey to motherhood being so rocky, has
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: that changed how you view motherhood?
• 9:35
  Speaker 4: Oh, 100%. I am– It's all I ever wanted. And
• 9:41
  Speaker 4: my son, I love my daughter and my son equally.
• 9:44
  Speaker 4: Don't get me wrong.
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: Sure you do.
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: Same.
• 9:46
  Speaker 4: But my son was the one that like I was
• 9:50
  Speaker 4: desperate for and he was all I ever wanted.
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: His number one?
• 9:53
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it be weird if it was number two and
• 9:56
  Speaker 4: it was all I ever wanted.
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: Fair point.
• 10:02
  Speaker 4: He's five and he is just literally like, I don't
• 10:05
  Speaker 4: think I knew what love was until I met him.
• 10:08
  Speaker 4: He's just the, he's such a joy and such a
• 10:11
  Speaker 4: beautiful boy. And I think the difference between my postpartum
• 10:14
  Speaker 4: experience between him and my daughter, vastly different. I cried
• 10:18
  Speaker 4: all the time when Hunter was born, but I was
• 10:20
  Speaker 4: just so happy. I literally would just hug him and
• 10:22
  Speaker 4: not let him go. I was just so happy, so positive.
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: I mean, after like how many times did you fall
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: pregnant before Hunter was actually born?
• 10:32
  Speaker 4: I think it was eight.
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: Eight. Yeah. So I can imagine the anticipation. Yeah. And
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: obviously all of the sad news that you had to
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: go through along the way, I'm just picturing you in
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: that moment.
• 10:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean I was so numb to connecting with
• 10:45
  Speaker 4: him properly that I didn't even have a– I referred
• 10:48
  Speaker 4: to him as the baby for weeks after when he
• 10:51
  Speaker 4: was born.
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: Why is that?
• 10:52
  Speaker 4: Just– I don't know. It's just I just didn't want
• 10:56
  Speaker 4: to connect in case something went wrong.
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: So he was prem.
• 11:00
  Speaker 4: So he was born at 36 weeks. So he had
• 11:02
  Speaker 4: to go to special care. He had to be resus.
• 11:04
  Speaker 4: So all of these things I'm like, oh, I just–
• 11:06
  Speaker 4: I don't want to, you know, connect too much. But obviously,
• 11:09
  Speaker 4: you know, he's the best little guy and boys are
• 11:11
  Speaker 4: the best.
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: Was Hunter, did he give you the issues with your
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: pregnancy throughout or was that Goldie?
• 11:18
  Speaker 4: No, they're both, both. Hunter was a lot better. So
• 11:21
  Speaker 4: I have hyperemesis or HG. It was a lot worse
• 11:24
  Speaker 4: with my daughter. But yeah, so I was vomiting eight
• 11:27
  Speaker 4: to ten times a day with Hunter.
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: From the get go?
• 11:29
  Speaker 4: From the get go.
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: Eight to 10 for the whole period?
• 11:31
  Speaker 4: The whole time. So with Goldie, it was, it could
• 11:34
  Speaker 4: be 30 to 40 times. I was, yeah, I tore
• 11:37
  Speaker 4: my esophagus with Goldie. It was. Really? Yeah, really.
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: So how do you manage that day to day with Hunter?
• 11:43
  Speaker 4: So that was kind of the thing that I really
• 11:46
  Speaker 4: struggled with the most is because I was like nine
• 11:48
  Speaker 4: months of his life that I missed really I mean
• 11:51
  Speaker 4: I've got photos of me him in the car watching
• 11:55
  Speaker 4: his iPad and me on the floor next to him
• 11:57
  Speaker 4: with a bucket or me in the bathroom and him
• 12:00
  Speaker 4: just like stacking up toilet paper like rolls to like
• 12:03
  Speaker 4: entertain himself because I was on my own a lot
• 12:06
  Speaker 4: my partner was working all the time for our business
• 12:09
  Speaker 4: and it was just me at home I've got an
• 12:11
  Speaker 4: incredible nanny which I'm really fortunate about but my mum
• 12:14
  Speaker 4: wasn't close by at that point.
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: So this might be a dumb question but Do you
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: just hate pregnancy?
• 12:21
  Speaker 4: For someone that all I've ever wanted is to have babies,
• 12:24
  Speaker 4: I hate it. Like I fell pregnant a year and
• 12:27
  Speaker 4: a half ago naturally and unexpected. And when I saw
• 12:32
  Speaker 4: that pregnancy test, I ran downstairs.
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: Going, no!
• 12:36
  Speaker 4: Like my nanny was like, your face just went white.
• 12:39
  Speaker 4: And I started shaking because I was like, I can't,
• 12:41
  Speaker 4: like I will do this, but I can't. How am
• 12:43
  Speaker 4: I going to survive? Yeah. Like I was depressed, suicidal.
• 12:47
  Speaker 4: all of the things were goldie. It was not, not good.
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: Do you say 30 to 40 times a day?
• 12:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah.
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: Oh my God.
• 12:54
  Speaker 4: Like I had a permanent cannulary and I'd have to
• 12:56
  Speaker 4: go to the hospitals. I was in the hospital in
• 12:58
  Speaker 4: the home.
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: It's so crazy. Like I just thinking like growing up,
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: you think, okay, your partner, she gets pregnant and you
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: have a baby, but no, it's crazy that no one
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: really talks about how much it actually, and just the
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: different variations of what can happen in that nine months.
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: Like Listening to you say 30 to 40 times of
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: being sick.
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: You had to be on a cannula.
• 13:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: You had to be your esophagus. That's horrific to then
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: also be expecting a child.
• 13:28
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah.
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: Was there anything along that way that sort of gave
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: you any reprieve?
• 13:33
  Speaker 4: Meds.
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: Like is it pain meds or like?
• 13:35
  Speaker 4: No, it's like anti-nausea.
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: Anti-nausea.
• 13:37
  Speaker 4: Yeah. There's a sleeping tablet that they actually prescribe when
• 13:40
  Speaker 4: you've got HG that helps with nausea. So that, B6. Yeah. And, yeah,
• 13:45
  Speaker 4: it was like one of the whole reasons why I
• 13:46
  Speaker 4: created one of our brands was because I was like
• 13:49
  Speaker 4: being told pump Powerade and I'm like, well, then I'm
• 13:51
  Speaker 4: vomiting up like artificial colours and blue shit the whole time.
• 13:55
  Speaker 4: It's like not fun.
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: With the trauma of all your pregnancies and your losses,
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: how do you digest all of those emotions?
• 14:03
  Speaker 4: I was really fortunate that I found a therapist that
• 14:06
  Speaker 4: has actually had HG and she, so I found her
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: when I had really bad postpartum depression with Goldie. in
• 14:14
  Speaker 4: my postpartum period. I had really bad postpartum rage and
• 14:17
  Speaker 4: I was like, I need help. This is not okay.
• 14:20
  Speaker 4: And my friends were like, you need to go see someone.
• 14:23
  Speaker 4: And I was so lucky that I found this woman, Heidi,
• 14:25
  Speaker 4: because she was like, I've had HG three times.
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: Was there a moment before seeing that that made you go,
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: I need to see someone? Was there a particular moment?
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: Yeah. So my rage was really bad because I think
• 14:36
  Speaker 4: Goldie was colicky. So I was like, fucking hell, like
• 14:39
  Speaker 4: I've just had the worst time of my life. And
• 14:42
  Speaker 4: now you're colicky. I've got two under two screaming baby.
• 14:47
  Speaker 4: I was on my own pretty much. And I'd be
• 14:50
  Speaker 4: so sleep deprived and so angry. And I would never
• 14:54
  Speaker 4: touch my kids, but I would hit my head so
• 14:57
  Speaker 4: hard up against the wall. And I was like, that's
• 15:01
  Speaker 4: not normal. And I told my friend and I was
• 15:04
  Speaker 4: really quite conscious of it because I'd been so suicidal
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: during the pregnancy that I was like, this is fucked.
• 15:12
  Speaker 4: And she was like, go see someone.
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: So what was it like then seeing a therapist for
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: the first time?
• 15:18
  Speaker 4: She was like, I'm really worried about you and your
• 15:21
  Speaker 4: baby and we need to get you better. If we
• 15:24
  Speaker 4: don't get you better, then you're going to have to
• 15:26
  Speaker 4: go somewhere and you won't have your kids to go
• 15:29
  Speaker 4: and get help. And she's like, I know how much
• 15:31
  Speaker 4: you don't want to be away from your kids. So
• 15:33
  Speaker 4: I was like, okay, how do we do this? And
• 15:36
  Speaker 4: I think as soon as I started being like, I'm
• 15:38
  Speaker 4: not okay– and I have really bad postpartum rage and depression,
• 15:43
  Speaker 4: that it was kind of like a relief that someone
• 15:45
  Speaker 4: was like, it's not normal but let's get you better.
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: You know, you open the tap and stuff where you
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: feel like I have to hold this in for so
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: long or I have to hold this in because I
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: just need to do it myself. When someone says it's
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: okay for you to be like that, the tap, hey,
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: just opens.
• 16:00
  Speaker 4: And I was running three businesses so I had pretty
• 16:03
  Speaker 4: much nine months of barely being able to function. The
• 16:06
  Speaker 4: business was nearly bankrupt at that point. I was like,
• 16:09
  Speaker 4: I need to get back to work. I don't have
• 16:10
  Speaker 4: time to feel all these feelings. So I think as
• 16:13
  Speaker 4: soon as I was like, okay, no, it was like
• 16:16
  Speaker 4: this switch that I was like, how do I get better?
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah. What did your recovery look like?
• 16:22
  Speaker 4: It was just, it was over Christmas. Thank goodness. So
• 16:25
  Speaker 4: I was able to have a bit more support. My
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: partner wasn't working as much, so I got a bit
• 16:29
  Speaker 4: more sleep and I think I was just, my family
• 16:32
  Speaker 4: was around and it was just medication. Yeah, antidepressants and
• 16:37
  Speaker 4: just really trying to be like, you've got to fix.
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: Do you wish that maybe if you look back that
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: you sought help earlier or was there something holding you back?
• 16:46
  Speaker 4: I mean, in hindsight, yeah, maybe. But I think I
• 16:51
  Speaker 4: needed to get that bad to realise like, you know what?
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: That's the only way. What do they say? You've got
• 16:58
  Speaker 4: to hit rock bottom before you can.
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: The reason I ask that question is because there'd be
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: probably a lot of parents listening to this thinking– do
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: I have to hit rock bottom to seek help? And
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: the answer is no.
• 17:09
  Speaker 4: No, definitely not. And I think speaking to your friends
• 17:12
  Speaker 4: was one of the biggest things that I found really important.
• 17:15
  Speaker 4: And I think I clocked onto it pretty quickly because
• 17:18
  Speaker 4: compared to Hunter's postpartum experience, I was so joyful and
• 17:22
  Speaker 4: happy and it was just such a different experience, whereas
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: I was just fucked from the get-go. And I remember
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: I went to the park with a friend and I'm like,
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: I just can't stop crying. Is this like baby blues?
• 17:34
  Speaker 4: And she's like, babe, that was like, you're five weeks postpartum.
• 17:38
  Speaker 4: Probably not. I'm like, oh. And so I think it's
• 17:41
  Speaker 4: just speaking to friends and having, I was really lucky
• 17:44
  Speaker 4: that I had that second postpartum experience to compare it to.
• 17:47
  Speaker 4: But yeah, I think feeling so angry that you want
• 17:50
  Speaker 4: to hurt yourself or your baby is definitely a huge
• 17:53
  Speaker 4: flag and there's nothing to be ashamed of it because
• 17:55
  Speaker 4: the amount of people that I've spoken to and they're like, yeah,
• 17:57
  Speaker 4: we've been there.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: When you were speaking to the therapist, was there anything
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: that you discovered about yourself that that helped with your
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: recovery that you didn't know previously?
• 18:06
  Speaker 4: Oh, she was like, have you ever been assessed for
• 18:09
  Speaker 4: ADHD or autism? Like the third appointment, I'm like, nah.
• 18:14
  Speaker 4: And she's like, okay.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: And so how do you think that was impacting you negatively?
• 18:19
  Speaker 4: So my autistic brain thrives off routine and my ADHD
• 18:24
  Speaker 4: brain is just like, da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. So I think that the
• 18:28
  Speaker 4: way that she explained it was your brain space is
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: focusing on kids and And you've got no time to
• 18:35
  Speaker 4: like be able to mask your autism and no time
• 18:37
  Speaker 4: to like really, you know, go into that fight or
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: flight mode. So my whole world was just like imploding.
• 18:42
  Speaker 4: So she's like, you need to be able to figure
• 18:44
  Speaker 4: out how your brain works. And so then I got
• 18:47
  Speaker 4: assessed for ADHD.
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: And so then how does that help you then day
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: to day when you're juggling so many different items like
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: the business and the kids?
• 18:54
  Speaker 4: So I didn't do my autistic diagnosis until a year
• 18:59
  Speaker 4: after my ADHD. And I found that all of my
• 19:02
  Speaker 4: autistic traits were like raging when my ADHD was like
• 19:07
  Speaker 4: under control.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: And for people who might not know, what are the
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: autistic traits?
• 19:12
  Speaker 4: So for me, if someone's parked in my spot, I
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: like can't focus. I would have to go get someone
• 19:17
  Speaker 4: to move. Like at work, I eat out of certain forks.
• 19:22
  Speaker 4: Promise I am normal to a degree. Yeah. just internal
• 19:28
  Speaker 4: dialogue the way that like I think I've never felt
• 19:31
  Speaker 4: like I've belonged never throughout my whole entire childhood I've
• 19:34
  Speaker 4: always found socialization really really hard and it's quite contradictory
• 19:38
  Speaker 4: considering that I speak to people every single day but
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: I've just masked my whole life.
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah do you feel like any interaction like this, you
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: feel like you're masking?
• 19:50
  Speaker 4: Not like this, but there are certain experiences. Like we
• 19:54
  Speaker 4: do expos and after that I'm like corked.
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: Just down, yeah.
• 19:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm like I just need to sit and not
• 20:00
  Speaker 4: speak to anyone.
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: Is it like a day of improv and then eventually
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: the improv, they're like, okay, you can finish now.
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: Especially like if you're doing– quite high-pressure business-related stuff. You
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: can imagine that it's really helpful in those moments. But
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: then afterwards, and then also afterwards, you go home to
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: the people closest to you, like your kids, and you
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: try and pick yourself up around your kids. Is that
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: something that you struggle with?
• 20:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think my kids are very much my safe space.
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: If we go back to when you had that moment
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: where you needed to see a therapist, what do you
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: think the hesitation was to reach out to someone and say,
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: I need help?
• 20:37
  Speaker 4: You know, I think as a mom, you put everyone
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: else first always. And so I was like, no, I'm fine.
• 20:44
  Speaker 4: Like I'll get over this. I've gone through hell and
• 20:47
  Speaker 4: back my entire life, really. I'll be fine. And then
• 20:51
  Speaker 4: I think it was when my friend was like, babe,
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: this is not okay. You are not well. So I
• 20:55
  Speaker 4: think it was that moment that I was like, and
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: I said it out loud. I was like, oh, it's
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: Me getting a bruise on my head from hitting my
• 21:02
  Speaker 4: head is not good.
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: When you hear from a friend, someone who's really close
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: to you, say those words that I don't think you're okay,
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: what does that feel like?
• 21:11
  Speaker 4: I think it was like something that I was trying
• 21:13
  Speaker 4: to ignore for a long time and be like, fuck,
• 21:16
  Speaker 4: I actually really do need to go see someone. Yeah.
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: It's funny when you hear it out loud, you're like,
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: because your thoughts, especially for someone like you with ADHD
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: and autism, your thoughts, they just come and go. But
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: when someone's like, hey, that's not normal. Yeah. And once
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: that light bulb went off, talk us through, because a
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: lot of people as well who listen don't know what
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: the next step is. Yeah.
• 21:35
  Speaker 4: So finding a good therapist is something that I've struggled
• 21:39
  Speaker 4: with a lot throughout my whole entire life. I mean,
• 21:42
  Speaker 4: I've got complex PTSD from childhood trauma, which is something
• 21:46
  Speaker 4: that I didn't unpack until I was in my early twenties.
• 21:50
  Speaker 4: And then I really struggled to find my person because
• 21:53
  Speaker 4: therapy is hard work and I'm kind of one of
• 21:56
  Speaker 4: those people that if I don't see something straight away
• 21:59
  Speaker 4: getting fixed, I'm like, fuck, I'm bored.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 22:02
  Speaker 4: So.
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: I've never been to a therapist. So what are you
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: looking for when you're coming in contact with different therapy specialists?
• 22:13
  Speaker 4: I think feeling not judged is really important and for
• 22:16
  Speaker 4: someone to really understand, like, There's so many varying different
• 22:21
  Speaker 4: mental health issues out there. And I think for me,
• 22:24
  Speaker 4: what I was looking for was someone that specialized in
• 22:26
  Speaker 4: postpartum maternal care. And so, because that was what I
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: needed at that time. It was just so happened that
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: she also was very much neurodivergent focused. But yeah, it
• 22:36
  Speaker 4: just depends what you think the underlying issue is. Because
• 22:40
  Speaker 4: I once upon a time was looking for someone that
• 22:42
  Speaker 4: specialized in EMDR therapy, which is really great for PTSD.
• 22:45
  Speaker 4: So I think for me, I try and look at
• 22:47
  Speaker 4: it from like a pragmatic point of view going, okay, well,
• 22:50
  Speaker 4: what's the problem and how do I fix it? And
• 22:52
  Speaker 4: that's where therapy is really hard because you've got to
• 22:54
  Speaker 4: stick with it. And sometimes I'm in therapy, I'm like, fuck,
• 22:57
  Speaker 4: when's this over? But you've got to do the hard work.
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: And so then when you then have your first session
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: with the therapist that you ended up connecting with. Yeah.
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: In addition to medication, were there any tools that they
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: gave you that better helped you manage day to day?
• 23:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah, just different grounding techniques and different. She gave me
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: this app and I wish I could know. I'll let
• 23:22
  Speaker 4: you guys know. And it was very much like almost
• 23:24
  Speaker 4: a guided grounding meditation app that actually helped me just
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: switch off listening to binaural beats. What's that?
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 23:33
  Speaker 4: So it's like different frequencies to help. calm your brain down.
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: I actually had listened to it before for focus. And
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: then when she mentioned it in therapy, I was like, oh,
• 23:43
  Speaker 4: you're my person. This is great. So it's just different.
• 23:45
  Speaker 4: And now I know that, you know, she very much
• 23:47
  Speaker 4: specializes in ADHD people. I'm like, ah, that's why I
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: liked it so much then. That's why you recommended it.
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: Just different grounding techniques and like trying to I would
• 23:56
  Speaker 4: get into like a really panic state. And so she's like,
• 23:58
  Speaker 4: you need to just try and, you know, count. I
• 24:01
  Speaker 4: think it's count 10 things. It's like, can you smell?
• 24:04
  Speaker 4: What can you hear? What can you touch? And it's
• 24:06
  Speaker 4: very much trying to like regulate yourself. So all of
• 24:09
  Speaker 4: those practical tools I find really helpful. But yeah, it's
• 24:12
  Speaker 4: been a while since I've actually had to.
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: The sounds is it like, just so I can wrap
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: my head around. It's just constant.
• 24:18
  Speaker 4: Like high pitch frequencies.
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: I never heard about that.
• 24:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah. It's really cool. really cool i like white noise
• 24:24
  Speaker 4: yeah kind of yeah but like really like high frequency
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: have you ever been like scrolling on instagram and you
• 24:30
  Speaker 4: hear these high frequency noises and it's like take a
• 24:33
  Speaker 4: deep breath in no we're.
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: In different lines all chinese it's interesting isn't it i
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: just don't think about like i know that some some
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: particular sounds are definitely but like i don't know there
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: was actually.
• 24:45
  Speaker 4: Like there's yeah yeah do you think.
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: Was there any residual trauma from your pregnancy journey that
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: you hadn't dealt with?
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: Oh, 100%.
• 24:53
  Speaker 4: Yeah. And that's what she said. She goes, you have got,
• 24:56
  Speaker 4: because at that point I was like, I still want
• 24:59
  Speaker 4: to have another baby. And she's like, we've got so
• 25:02
  Speaker 4: much work to do until you can get into that space.
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Because it's such an interesting juxtaposition with your situation,
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: especially where it's something that you want more than anything,
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: but at the same time, it's something that causes you
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: so much pain and grief and heartache.
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah. I have a friend that had such severe HG
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: that her organs started failing and her doctor was like,
• 25:23
  Speaker 4: you could die if you get pregnant again. That's how
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: severe HG can be for some people.
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: And it's so hard because I would love nothing more
• 25:31
  Speaker 4: than to have another baby. But for me, I just
• 25:34
  Speaker 4: can't put myself through that again and I can't do
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: that to my kids.
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: Do you think you'll ever get to a plateau? You've
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: closed that.
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: I've closed it, yeah.
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: How does that make you feel?
• 25:44
  Speaker 4: Really sad, yeah, really sad. Because being a mum is
• 25:49
  Speaker 4: so awesome. Like it's just they're my happiest times of
• 25:53
  Speaker 4: being with them.
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: What do you love most about it?
• 25:55
  Speaker 4: Yesterday morning, my son has started his school orientation. So
• 25:58
  Speaker 4: I had a slow morning because it started at 10.
• 26:00
  Speaker 4: So I didn't have to rush off to work. So
• 26:02
  Speaker 4: that was great. So I could actually just enjoy the moment.
• 26:04
  Speaker 4: And I was just watching them and they were laughing
• 26:06
  Speaker 4: and giggling, not fighting, which is rare. And I was like,
• 26:10
  Speaker 4: this is so awesome. Just like these little people learning
• 26:14
  Speaker 4: and just growing together. those little humans and I created that.
• 26:19
  Speaker 4: It's really cool.
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: When you think about you as a mum and Goldie
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: and Hunter that you've raised, what makes you most proud?
• 26:27
  Speaker 4: They're just so, well, my daughter is sassy as fuck
• 26:32
  Speaker 4: but my son, he's so sweet and he's the little
• 26:39
  Speaker 4: kid that will go and pick up flowers and like
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: just hand them to me. And just, he's just so
• 26:45
  Speaker 4: kind and caring.
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: What's his energy levels like?
• 26:48
  Speaker 4: He's nowhere near as hyper as my daughter. Okay. Yeah.
• 26:51
  Speaker 4: He's like, he's happily to like colour in, chill.
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 26:56
  Speaker 4: He does parkour though, which is really cool to see.
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: Parkour!
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: In an inappropriate setting.
• 27:01
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like proper teachers and stuff.
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: Not on my couch.
• 27:05
  Speaker 4: Yeah. And then my daughter, just watching her world open
• 27:10
  Speaker 4: up and her imagination and just playing. It's just, it's great.
• 27:15
  Speaker 4: They're the best kids. It's just the best job.
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: And then when you think about the moments of parenting
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: that are the hardest.
• 27:22
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah.
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: What is that for you?
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: Well, two under two was corked. Like I don't even
• 27:26
  Speaker 4: recognize the woman that I was doing that. That was
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: a rough slog. So that was really hard. And now
• 27:34
  Speaker 4: I look back at it. I'm like, oh, well look
• 27:35
  Speaker 4: at what I've got now. Yeah. Easier said than done.
• 27:38
  Speaker 4: That was hard.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: You do look back and think, how did I get
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: through that? And then like, especially like if you're a
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: few years after that, not too far away and you're like,
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: you might see someone who's struggling with two kids and
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: you're like, how did I get through that?
• 27:52
  Speaker 4: I mean, parenting is really hard and I sound like
• 27:55
  Speaker 4: my kids are a dream, but they definitely challenge me.
• 27:59
  Speaker 4: And especially I work long hours and I've got amazing
• 28:03
  Speaker 4: support around me. Like I leave at seven o'clock each
• 28:05
  Speaker 4: morning and my mum comes until my nanny comes. Like
• 28:08
  Speaker 4: I'm very, very fortunate in that respect. But yeah, parenting
• 28:12
  Speaker 4: is really challenging, but I think it's been really in
• 28:14
  Speaker 4: the past year that I've kind of come out of
• 28:16
  Speaker 4: that postpartum fog and my daughter's three and a half.
• 28:20
  Speaker 4: So like it took me two whole years to like
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: really go, okay, who am I and what do I
• 28:26
  Speaker 4: want to be?
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: How do you prioritize when you're juggling the business, juggling
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: your friendship, social circles, juggling the kids?
• 28:34
  Speaker 4: Oh, my friends know that I'm shit at seeing them.
• 28:37
  Speaker 4: I'm like, I love a call, but in terms of actually,
• 28:40
  Speaker 4: and I think that's very much my autistic brain coming out,
• 28:43
  Speaker 4: but socializing, I'm not, that's not me. I'm lucky that
• 28:46
  Speaker 4: all my friends are really long distance friends because I'm like, great,
• 28:49
  Speaker 4: see you in six months.
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: How do you juggle it all then? I know that's
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: like a really cliche question, but how do you manage it?
• 28:56
  Speaker 4: I just make it work. I very much, I think
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: a year ago when I was like, I don't like
• 29:02
  Speaker 4: how I'm dressing I don't like how I look I
• 29:04
  Speaker 4: don't like how I feel in my body I'm exhausted
• 29:07
  Speaker 4: all the time I'm not eating the right things I
• 29:10
  Speaker 4: don't like this person and I think it was like
• 29:13
  Speaker 4: for me to go okay how do I get to
• 29:15
  Speaker 4: where I want.
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: To be yeah I mean when you become a parent
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: you lose a lot of your identity a whole lot
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: yeah and for you do you remember a moment like
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: where you thought okay this like you just said who
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: is this person when you thought okay I need to
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: get my identity back.
• 29:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I got a stress fracture in my
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: foot and I was wearing a bloody boot and sand shoes.
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: Sneakers.
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: Nothing more attractive than a moon boot.
• 29:39
  Speaker 4: Yeah. And I was like, this is fucked. Why am
• 29:42
  Speaker 4: I wearing these kind of clothes? I feel so uncomfortable.
• 29:45
  Speaker 4: And I think I was so tired all the time
• 29:47
  Speaker 4: that I was like, nah, like I know I'm sleep
• 29:50
  Speaker 4: deprived and I know I'm doing a lot, but surely
• 29:53
  Speaker 4: there's a way out of this. And it was just
• 29:55
  Speaker 4: a slow... I think I literally just started doing like
• 29:58
  Speaker 4: 10 pushups a day. And I was like, okay, I'm
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: just going to start doing that. And then start doing
• 30:02
  Speaker 4: more exercise.
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: I did think when you came in, I was like this.
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: Strong triceps. Yeah.
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: You got some strong triceps.
• 30:08
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: It's sort of like you just, I mean, I could
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: imagine all of the mums out there now like feel,
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: and every parent feels this, we feel it as well,
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: where you do lose the sense of identity and you
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: try and keep hold of it or you scrap it,
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: you try and grab it. But what you mentioned there
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: is just something that, So small that can compound to
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: help you find yourself.
• 30:28
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: And do you think that really put you on a journey?
• 30:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah. I tried to do one of those fitspo challenges at,
• 30:35
  Speaker 4: I think like three months postpartum. And I was like,
• 30:38
  Speaker 4: I'm going to do it. I'm going to lose all
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: this like infertility and baby weight. And I'm going to
• 30:41
  Speaker 4: try and feel good about myself. And like that flopped
• 30:44
  Speaker 4: because I was like, I wasn't ready.
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: And there's a lot of pressure.
• 30:47
  Speaker 4: So much pressure. And I think it was being okay with, okay,
• 30:51
  Speaker 4: I'm like two and a half years postpartum now. And
• 30:53
  Speaker 4: now I'm ready. And I'm like, Okay. And then for me,
• 30:57
  Speaker 4: I was like, I need something small and achievable. And
• 30:59
  Speaker 4: if I actually stick with it, then I'll add something else.
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah. That's really good advice, I think. And a lot
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: of mums out there would be like, okay, well, yeah,
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: you always fall for this drastic thing to change my life,
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: but that's actually not the most impactful thing or the
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: most Yeah.
• 31:14
  Speaker 4: Beneficial.
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: It's that, that little thing.
• 31:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah. And for me, I never, I used to always
• 31:19
  Speaker 4: see these things online about, I'm more on the person
• 31:22
  Speaker 4: that I used to be. And for me, I never
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: wanted to be back there. Like all I ever wanted
• 31:26
  Speaker 4: was to become a mom. Yeah. So it wasn't that
• 31:30
  Speaker 4: it was more about, okay, well, all I've lived for
• 31:33
  Speaker 4: like my late twenties was not being able to have kids.
• 31:37
  Speaker 4: And then I was so, so unwell. And then I
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: was in the thick of this postpartum hell hole. Then
• 31:43
  Speaker 4: I was like, okay, who's this new person?
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: Why do you think you wanted to be a mum
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: so bad?
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: Mum had four kids. I don't know.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about what your mum was like with you guys. Yeah.
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: Was it that maybe she was a bit of a
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: role model and you're like, I would love to do
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: that one day, do you think?
• 31:59
  Speaker 4: Possibly. I think my, so there's a 14 year gap
• 32:01
  Speaker 4: between myself and my baby brother. So maybe like I
• 32:04
  Speaker 4: saw that maternal.
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 32:07
  Speaker 4: I was 14. Yeah. And so.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: Work experience.
• 32:11
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Mom put me to work. I mean, so there's
• 32:14
  Speaker 4: a seven year gap between my second youngest brother and
• 32:17
  Speaker 4: then a 14 year gap. Same mom and dad. That
• 32:20
  Speaker 4: was really fertile. I'm like their daughter.
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 32:23
  Speaker 4: I was like, I've got this in the bank. Mum's
• 32:25
  Speaker 4: had four kids. She had two kids in an IUD. Like,
• 32:27
  Speaker 4: I'm sweet. And then I started struggling. I'm like, what?
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not transferable.
• 32:32
  Speaker 4: No, no. And even with her, she had really bad
• 32:35
  Speaker 4: morning sickness until 16 weeks. I was like, okay, cool.
• 32:37
  Speaker 4: And then it was like 20 weeks in. I'm like, what?
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: She really just handed you all the good stuff with utility,
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: didn't she?
• 32:43
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah. She really did. Thanks, Mum. Yeah, well, actually,
• 32:47
  Speaker 4: the blood clotting condition is a genetic thing. It was
• 32:49
  Speaker 4: from my dad's side.
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: Hmm. Before you fell pregnant, how did you think that
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: experience was going to be like and unfold?
• 32:58
  Speaker 4: I thought I was just going to be like a
• 33:00
  Speaker 4: glowing goddess pregnant. I honestly had no idea how unwell
• 33:06
  Speaker 4: I would be. I think I was very much like, oh,
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: I've got all these Pinterest boards of, when I fell
• 33:12
  Speaker 4: pregnant with Hunter and we got to, I think it
• 33:14
  Speaker 4: was 10 weeks, I was like, okay, I can kind
• 33:17
  Speaker 4: of relax a little bit. And I had all these
• 33:18
  Speaker 4: Pinterest boards of, all the outfits that I wanted to wear,
• 33:22
  Speaker 4: although we were in COVID. So I was like living
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: in La La Land.
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: You can wear them around the house.
• 33:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah, around the house. And I think I was like,
• 33:29
  Speaker 4: I'm going to just breeze through this because I've had
• 33:32
  Speaker 4: such a shit show to get pregnant. Surely I'm not
• 33:35
  Speaker 4: going to be sick. And then I was sick. And
• 33:38
  Speaker 4: then he was prem at 36 weeks. And then he
• 33:41
  Speaker 4: was in special care. I'm like, this is fucked. But
• 33:44
  Speaker 4: then he was an absolute dream baby. And then I
• 33:47
  Speaker 4: was like, okay, well, at least when Goldie comes out,
• 33:49
  Speaker 4: I'll have another dream baby.
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: What's it like though?
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: The expectation.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: What is it like when the reality is so vastly
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: different from what you imagined it to be like?
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: It's hard. It's really hard not to be in that.
• 34:02
  Speaker 4: Why me? And I think I definitely... With Goldies more so,
• 34:07
  Speaker 4: I was just in such a bad headspace. I was like,
• 34:09
  Speaker 4: why does this shit happen to me? Like, what have
• 34:11
  Speaker 4: I done to deserve this? And it was so hard
• 34:13
  Speaker 4: to get out of that headspace. And even with Hunter,
• 34:17
  Speaker 4: I think because I had, well, I still do have
• 34:20
  Speaker 4: such a community of people going through loss and it's
• 34:22
  Speaker 4: something that I'm so passionate about still. I think I
• 34:25
  Speaker 4: didn't really tell people how unwell I was for a
• 34:29
  Speaker 4: very long time online because I was like, I can't
• 34:31
  Speaker 4: be seen to be a miserable fuck. Because all of
• 34:34
  Speaker 4: these people would die to be in this position. And
• 34:38
  Speaker 4: so I really struggled with that for a long time.
• 34:41
  Speaker 4: I think I was like 28 weeks until I was like,
• 34:43
  Speaker 4: I'm not okay. So there was that. There's so many
• 34:47
  Speaker 4: why me's and it's hard to like shift being like, okay,
• 34:51
  Speaker 4: this is just your journey. You're going to have to
• 34:53
  Speaker 4: suck it up.
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: And I mean, we all do as parents, we all
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: go through those moments with our kids where it's sort
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: of like they're being bad, you're in a bad mood
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: and you're like, God, this is like, you know, and
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: you're not enjoying it. And for someone like you, who's
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: like always wanted to be a mom, do you ever
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: find yourself in that moment thinking, I really wanted this,
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: but I feel guilty because I'm annoyed with.
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: Them, if that makes sense. Yeah, definitely. I try and
• 35:17
  Speaker 4: do like a bit of a mental reset at nights.
• 35:20
  Speaker 4: Like if I have a bad night, I mean I
• 35:22
  Speaker 4: pretty much for the first two years was on my
• 35:25
  Speaker 4: own for every bedtime while my partner was working. So
• 35:29
  Speaker 4: I was like on my own for a lot of
• 35:31
  Speaker 4: it and I remember I'd get so frustrated and run
• 35:34
  Speaker 4: between both rooms trying to put them to sleep and
• 35:37
  Speaker 4: like I was breastfeeding Goldie and then my son, I'd
• 35:39
  Speaker 4: like give him the iPad and all of that. It
• 35:41
  Speaker 4: was just so chaotic and I was like, fuck! And
• 35:45
  Speaker 4: I would just try and reset each night and be like,
• 35:47
  Speaker 4: you know what? More often than not, my kids would
• 35:49
  Speaker 4: wake up like after an hour and I'm like, fuck.
• 35:51
  Speaker 4: But like, yeah, I think it's just trying to be like,
• 35:54
  Speaker 4: you know, tomorrow's a new day.
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: Postpartum, there's this idea of it being this magical and
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: amazing thing. And look, it can be for sure. Can
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: you tell us what you thought it was going to
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: be like versus the reality?
• 36:08
  Speaker 4: Well, I guess I did have two very different experiences.
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: So with Hunter, it was COVID. So I was home.
• 36:15
  Speaker 4: Wasn't as much pressure to do things. and he was
• 36:19
  Speaker 4: a good easy baby and I didn't have that intense
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: I still felt very lonely definitely I definitely remember feeling
• 36:28
  Speaker 4: just lonely but with Goldie I think that I expected
• 36:32
  Speaker 4: that that's what I would have with her yeah and
• 36:35
  Speaker 4: I'm like I'll breeze through this I mean I was
• 36:37
  Speaker 4: booking jobs left right and center thinking oh yeah I'll
• 36:40
  Speaker 4: just bring my like four week old baby that's fine No,
• 36:44
  Speaker 4: she hated the car. Remember I had to go down
• 36:45
  Speaker 4: to Sydney with her for something and I'm like, this
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: is just fucked up. I am never going to do
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: this again. And like, how distracted are you just trying
• 36:52
  Speaker 4: to throw stuff at the back to calm them down,
• 36:54
  Speaker 4: pulling over. And I just remember going, this is just
• 36:58
  Speaker 4: so different. And I feel so deeply for those that
• 37:01
  Speaker 4: have that for the first experience. But yeah, I definitely thought,
• 37:06
  Speaker 4: oh yeah, I'll have like the best, best experience with
• 37:09
  Speaker 4: two under two. I'll have that really clean house and
• 37:12
  Speaker 4: just be like picture perfect. But no, my house is
• 37:15
  Speaker 4: still a bomb.
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: It's your house is allowed to be.
• 37:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: For someone who would be very naive to the realities
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: of postpartum, how can you describe what that is like?
• 37:28
  Speaker 4: It's like you are so lonely, even if, you know,
• 37:33
  Speaker 4: your house is full and you've got people around you.
• 37:35
  Speaker 4: It's this feeling of just like this dark loneliness that,
• 37:40
  Speaker 4: Days can drag on. You're watching the clock. You feel
• 37:45
  Speaker 4: like you're the only one in it. And it's so foggy.
• 37:50
  Speaker 4: And I think that's probably, yeah, alone and foggy is
• 37:53
  Speaker 4: like a reality of what my postpartum was.
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: You said something there. Your house is so full but
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: you feel so lonely.
• 37:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's hectic. I reckon there'd be a lot of
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: people out there feeling that exact feeling.
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Like it actually makes me really like emotional how–
• 38:11
  Speaker 4: How alone I felt.
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry I had to go through that.
• 38:15
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's fucked. But I think it's given me such
• 38:19
  Speaker 4: an understanding and a level of, like, empathy for when
• 38:23
  Speaker 4: I see someone, like, really in the thick of it. And, like,
• 38:26
  Speaker 4: I'll see a mum, like, you can just tell that
• 38:29
  Speaker 4: she's fucked and I'm like, you're doing a really good job.
• 38:32
  Speaker 4: Because I had all the old fuddy-duddies. I hope I'm
• 38:35
  Speaker 4: not the old fuddy-duddy to them. But I used to
• 38:38
  Speaker 4: have so many of them be like, you're doing such
• 38:40
  Speaker 4: a good job. Like I remember I was actually getting
• 38:42
  Speaker 4: out of the chemist with Hunter, getting my anti-vomiting meds
• 38:45
  Speaker 4: for Goldie, like when I was pregnant with Goldie. And
• 38:48
  Speaker 4: I was just fucked. That was such a bad day.
• 38:51
  Speaker 4: And I was like, I'm out of my meds. And
• 38:53
  Speaker 4: she's like, looked at me and she's like, you're doing
• 38:54
  Speaker 4: a really good job. And I was like, oh, thanks.
• 38:56
  Speaker 4: And just like sobbed the whole way to the chemist.
• 38:58
  Speaker 4: But yeah, I think it's just, I just feel so
• 39:01
  Speaker 4: deeply for those that are really in the thick of
• 39:03
  Speaker 4: it and they just don't see a light at the end.
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a pretty thankless job, especially with, With young toddlers.
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 39:13
  Speaker 4: But it does get better. It does get easier. It's
• 39:15
  Speaker 4: not like you wake up one day and you're like, oh, sick.
• 39:19
  Speaker 4: I'm good now. But it's just that slow realization that,
• 39:22
  Speaker 4: you know what? Things are easier. Morning routines are easier.
• 39:24
  Speaker 4: Bedtime's easier. You know, you'll have the odd one here
• 39:27
  Speaker 4: and there where it's cooked. But for the most part,
• 39:31
  Speaker 4: it gets easier.
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: You're also getting better at it.
• 39:34
  Speaker 4: True.
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: I always think that too. It does get easier, but
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: you build up some stamina around it. And young parents
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: with really young kids, you're saying, and I see it.
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: I'm the same. I feel it now when I see
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: someone struggling, you know, like whether it's mum, dad, whoever. Yeah.
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: but you're like, you know what, you're just building that
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: muscle so that when they're actually like five, three and
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: a half, you're like, you're trained.
• 39:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: You know, you're still learning, but you're trained.
• 40:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean, I, what is it? A football hold
• 40:02
  Speaker 4: held my, where were we leaving? Where was I? Oh,
• 40:05
  Speaker 4: a birthday party on the weekend. And she's like, I
• 40:07
  Speaker 4: don't want to get out of the pool. I'm like,
• 40:08
  Speaker 4: we are done. I'm done. There was like 20 kids
• 40:11
  Speaker 4: in this pool and I was like, I'm out. And
• 40:13
  Speaker 4: she was like screaming. I was like, underneath you and
• 40:15
  Speaker 4: I'm like running in. I'm like, fuck, like what's the
• 40:18
  Speaker 4: point of time? Oh, she was kicking and screaming. I
• 40:21
  Speaker 4: was like, see ya, we're gone. And Hunter's like, do
• 40:23
  Speaker 4: we have to go? I'm like, we've got Lego at home.
• 40:25
  Speaker 4: Or the amount of like deep bellowing, get in now.
• 40:32
  Speaker 4: I don't use that deep voice often, but I used
• 40:34
  Speaker 4: it the other day and Hunter's face was like, okay,
• 40:37
  Speaker 4: that's right. Yeah.
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: What's a day for me?
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: I know my kids don't take it seriously anymore because
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: I'm just like, sit down. And they're like, no.
• 40:46
  Speaker 4: I was like, damn it.
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: And how are things going now? Juggling being a mom
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: and the business.
• 40:54
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's good. It's hard. Like I'm still very, very,
• 40:57
  Speaker 4: very tired, but I feel like they're easier now. I mean,
• 41:01
  Speaker 4: three and five. It's a lot more manageable. They're good
• 41:05
  Speaker 4: kids for the most part. And I'm kind of like
• 41:08
  Speaker 4: last night I came home, I'd had like a hectic
• 41:12
  Speaker 4: day and then Hunter's like, can I get some sticky tape?
• 41:14
  Speaker 4: I'm like, oh, I know what you're going to do.
• 41:17
  Speaker 4: He gets sticky tape and he wraps it around like
• 41:19
  Speaker 4: all of the chairs and like makes like a boat.
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: And so I've got like six dining chairs and he's
• 41:25
  Speaker 4: wrapping all of this sticky tape and I'm like, fuck.
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: Wait till he finds a cling wrap.
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: Oh, God.
• 41:31
  Speaker 4: And I'm like. okay, buddy. And then he's like, can
• 41:33
  Speaker 4: I get some scissors? And I'm like, yeah, sure. Just
• 41:37
  Speaker 4: use those ones. And I just have to be like,
• 41:38
  Speaker 4: you know what? He's not hurting anyone. And I think
• 41:42
  Speaker 4: I had to really just let go of being perfect.
• 41:45
  Speaker 4: And I think that was a really big moment for
• 41:47
  Speaker 4: me when I'm like, you know what? It's okay. I'll
• 41:50
  Speaker 4: take it apart when you're asleep.
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: You sticky tape those chairs.
• 41:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah, he was like going around and around. He was
• 41:54
  Speaker 4: having so much fun. I was like, I've got 15
• 41:55
  Speaker 4: minutes to cook myself some dinner. Yeah.
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: You mentioned before, like it gets to like five and
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: three and a half and it gets easier. I think
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: because we get masked by those sort of things where
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: they come, they're a person now. They're becoming a person.
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: And you might still have those moments, but it's sort
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: of like they give back to you way more. Are
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: there any moments... that you would say are the favorite
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: moments you have with your kids just week to week?
• 42:20
  Speaker 4: Oh, just going to the beach.
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 42:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Like even in winter, I'd just take them down
• 42:24
  Speaker 4: to the beach and just let them run. And we'd
• 42:25
  Speaker 4: like make stick forts and we'd go treasure hunts are
• 42:29
  Speaker 4: a big thing for us.
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 42:30
  Speaker 4: We'll write a little list and give them buckets.
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 42:34
  Speaker 4: Yeah. We've got good treasure hunts and it's just like
• 42:37
  Speaker 4: a good hour and a half of just them running
• 42:39
  Speaker 4: up and down. And it's like something that we did
• 42:42
  Speaker 4: from a really young age because me getting out of
• 42:44
  Speaker 4: the house with two under two was so hard for me.
• 42:47
  Speaker 4: But if I was at home with my thoughts, I
• 42:50
  Speaker 4: would find myself, I'd just not be okay.
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: Everything escalates, doesn't it? Yeah. With the waves, it just
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: sort of drowns them out a bit.
• 42:56
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's right. Just go for a run.
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: When Hunter and Goldie are all grown up and they're
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: no longer living at home, what would be the one
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: thing you'd want them to remember about the house they
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: grew up in?
• 43:10
  Speaker 4: Just that it was full of love. Yeah. Like I
• 43:14
  Speaker 4: just all I want for them in life is to
• 43:16
  Speaker 4: know that they are loved. Yeah. They're the best kids.
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: I love that.
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: They're very lucky to have you.
• 43:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah, thanks.
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: You should be very proud of that.
• 43:23
  Speaker 4: Thanks.
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: You know, there are so many times, Ash, as a
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: parent where, you know, I'm thinking to myself, gosh, this
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: is just so bloody hard. Why have I got it
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: so tough? And it's conversations like this that really put
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: your own situation into perspective.
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: There are so many different variations of what can happen
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: over a mum's journey to becoming a mum. And that
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: one itself just shows that how many speed bumps can
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: be along the way.
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: And just a reminder, once again, we will put details
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: and links to where you can get support if you
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: or anyone you know is struggling right now.
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: And if you've enjoyed this episode, please leave a review, subscribe,
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: join us on social media, Two Doting Dads, Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, thriving, YouTube.
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: And if you have any other guests that you want
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: us to talk to, please send us a message wherever
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: you want.
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: And, Ash, just a reminder that myself and Kira, you
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: had to run out for a brief second. We filmed
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: a very quick recipe for a mocktail, a spicy marg mocktail.
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: So if you want to see that recipe, it will
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: be on our socials.
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: Until then, see you then.
• 44:26
  Speaker 4: Bye.
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: Bye. Two Doting Dads podcast acknowledges the traditional custodians of
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: country throughout Australia and their connections to land, sea and community.
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: We pay our respects to their elders past and present
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: Islander peoples today. This episode was recorded on Gadigal land.