Latest / Reflect Reclaim & Liberate - with Sallyanne Hartnell / Your Divorce Questions Answered: Expert Advice from The Happy Family Lawyer

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Your Divorce Questions Answered: Expert Advice from The Happy Family Lawyer · Reflect Reclaim & Liberate - with Sallyanne Hartnell

0:00
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate, a podcast covering all things relationships, separation and divorce.
0:09
SPEAKER_01: How to create healthy, happy, fulfilling relationships without sacrificing any part of yourself.
0:15
SPEAKER_01: Supporting anyone feeling challenged in their relationship or marriage, these are confidential conversations for you if you're navigating separation, divorce, or reorganising life afterwards.
0:26
SPEAKER_01: Decide whether to stay or leave a relationship or marriage, divorce with less drama, and consciously choose what's next for you.
0:36
SPEAKER_01: I acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast is recorded, the Warren Tree people of the Kulin Nation, and pay my respects to their elders, past, present, and emerging.
0:45
SPEAKER_01: I acknowledge them as the original storytellers of this land.
0:53
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to this week's episode of Reflect, Reclaim and Deliberate, on which I am joined by Clarissa Reywood.
1:01
SPEAKER_01: Clarissa is a wife, mum to two, accredited specialist family lawyer and lover of chocolate, coffee, and anything colourful.
1:09
SPEAKER_01: Clarissa is also the director of Brisbane Family Law Centre, a multidisciplinary practice where lawyers work alongside counsellors, coaches, and financial experts to provide holistic support to clients navigating divorce and separation.
1:26
SPEAKER_01: In 2015, Clarissa published her first book, The Split Field, How to Separate, Stay Out of Court and Stay Friends, and since then has trained family lawyers across Australia and internationally in better and kinder ways to help the clients through a divorce.
1:42
SPEAKER_01: And I hope you enjoy this conversation between Clarissa and me, or I ask her the most common, the most commonly Googled questions about divorce and the ones that I am often asked by clients and by my broader community.
2:00
SPEAKER_01: Introducing Clarissa Braywood.
2:04
SPEAKER_01: Clarissa, thanks for joining us.
2:05
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the podcast.
2:07
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me.
2:10
SPEAKER_01: So this the decision to have this conversation came about because you shared on your socials like 15-second answers to questions like commonly Googled divorce.
2:22
SPEAKER_01: I'm not going to give you only 15 seconds, I promise we're going to actually have so I thought we'd start with the really obvious, you know, my marriage, my relationship is over.
2:32
SPEAKER_01: What do I need to do next?
2:34
SPEAKER_01: What do I need to do to start my divorce?
2:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I would say nothing in this moment.
2:42
SPEAKER_00: Like if it's just happened, you don't want to do anything.
2:45
SPEAKER_00: You want to curl up in a ball, you want to go outside and sit in the sun, like you want to do whatever it is in that moment that's actually going to help you to feel a little bit more comfortable.
2:55
SPEAKER_00: Um, because the timing of moving forward with the legal process, I think can have such a significant impact on where you get to in the end.
3:04
SPEAKER_00: And in a perfect world, and I know that world is never perfect, but in a perfect world, you don't want your first communication after you've just discovered your relationship's over, I think, to be necessarily with a legal professional.
3:16
SPEAKER_00: You might want it to be with your sister, your best friend, your mum, your dad, whatever, someone that can go, oh gosh, like we've got a whole journey to go on now.
3:23
SPEAKER_00: Let's just take it one step at a time.
3:26
SPEAKER_00: And I think then that's what I'd say is if you are at a place where you think I do need to understand what the legal process looks like, then that's exactly how I'd attack it is from a place of education.
3:37
SPEAKER_00: What are my options?
3:38
SPEAKER_00: What how can I do this?
3:40
SPEAKER_00: The how you do it is so much more important than anything else.
3:43
SPEAKER_00: So really trying to get as much information as you can to then make the right decision for you, but taking time to do that because the emotions at the point of separation usually are so heightened that it makes it very, very difficult for any of us to make good decisions.
3:59
SPEAKER_00: And we really do want to be making good decisions when we're dealing with hard, hard, hard things.
4:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, hard things and life course altering decisions.
4:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's it.
4:09
SPEAKER_00: Most important stuff, kids and money.
4:11
SPEAKER_00: Like it's what we're all here for, really.
4:14
SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, huge decisions.
4:16
SPEAKER_01: Next question that I'm often asked is how long is this going to take?
4:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, great question.
4:21
SPEAKER_00: So I did some research so that I could say, right, the answer to that question according to my files is 18 months.
4:28
SPEAKER_00: So that's what I say.
4:30
SPEAKER_00: So for the people that are like, no, tell me, I'm like, 18 months is the average time that a file, so a human's legal life, exists in my office.
4:40
SPEAKER_00: Now there are people I've worked with, I was just chatting with a colleague who's in this room here just earlier, and she's working with a client of ours that's been engaged with our business for 10 years.
4:48
SPEAKER_00: Holy moly.
4:49
SPEAKER_00: And there, yeah, oh my gosh.
4:52
SPEAKER_00: And then there are people that are in, they've reached an agreement, they're getting that agreement documented, and they're out four weeks later.
5:00
SPEAKER_00: So it so depends on the level of I don't want to say conflict, but the uh ability to work together versus the further you are working apart, the probably longer you're gonna find yourself involved in a legal process.
5:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
5:16
SPEAKER_01: I would agree 100%.
5:18
SPEAKER_01: I'm really, I'm really keen.
5:20
SPEAKER_01: I was really happy to know that you've got a real answer to that question.
5:24
SPEAKER_00: It looks like I need to find this out.
5:26
SPEAKER_00: I've got to stick it on a brochure.
5:27
SPEAKER_00: Also, because I think most of us, when we're going through horrible things, we want to be out of them fast.
5:31
SPEAKER_00: So we're like, what do you mean, 18 months?
5:33
SPEAKER_00: Are you for real?
5:35
SPEAKER_00: But if I can tell you 18 months, then hopefully that A gives you some sense, but it also sets expectations around why it's not finished in two weeks' time.
5:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
5:47
SPEAKER_01: Do I need a lawyer?
5:48
SPEAKER_01: Do people actually need a lawyer for divorce?
5:51
SPEAKER_01: And if they don't, where can they DIY or where is it risky to do that?
5:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
5:57
SPEAKER_00: So no, you don't.
5:58
SPEAKER_00: You really don't.
5:59
SPEAKER_00: Um, however, given that I have a business and I am a lawyer, I'm going to give the selfish answer of well as well of.
6:08
SPEAKER_00: I do think we family lawyers add incredible value to helping you understand your options, probably preventing things going wrong that you may not even realize can go wrong, um, and being a bit of a sounding board in terms of this is what I'm thinking.
6:26
SPEAKER_00: What do you think about that?
6:27
SPEAKER_00: And then there's the technical elements, of course, of if you're involved in a court process where there is a big dispute about things, then I would absolutely say having the assistance of a lawyer will make what is a very difficult situation easier.
6:42
SPEAKER_00: Um, but if you, you know, I meet a lot of people that get information, they take that information and apply it to their own life, and then they often come back and say, this is where we've got to.
6:51
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's great.
6:53
SPEAKER_00: It's such a great way of using the tools that are available through lawyers.
6:57
SPEAKER_00: But specifically, you said to me, Sally Ande, you need a lawyer for divorce.
7:01
SPEAKER_00: And divorce, when we define it at law, is an application online now for a piece of paper that doesn't even come as a piece of paper anymore.
7:08
SPEAKER_00: It's a PDF that formally ends your marriage, doesn't do anything in terms of money or the arrangements for your children.
7:16
SPEAKER_00: And it's one of the simplest things that you can do, and you probably really don't need a lawyer to do that aspect of the legal issues at all.
7:25
SPEAKER_01: I think when we speak divorce in a more global laypersons um language, we're talking about agreements.
7:35
SPEAKER_01: We're talking about you an agreement, not that final, that final.
7:41
SPEAKER_00: And I think again, it is a selfish answer.
7:43
SPEAKER_00: You you may be, I think you can choose how you use advisors, all types of advisors, lawyers being one of them.
7:49
SPEAKER_00: I would strongly recommend at the point where you've got an agreement and you're about to sign it or document it or do something with it, you absolutely should be running that by a legal advisor because there are just things you don't know.
8:01
SPEAKER_00: Classic was a few months ago in this firm, someone rang and they'd done their consent order, didn't realize there was two mortgages on their house, get to settlement, and the people, the solicitors that are helping to deal with the settlement of the house say, Well, you need another$300,000 to pay out that other mortgage.
8:19
SPEAKER_00: And she's in a panic going, but there was one mortgage.
8:22
SPEAKER_00: No, no, there's two.
8:23
SPEAKER_00: And this is one of the things that I is just such a classic example for me of things that you just might not know to even look for, check how to check all of those things.
8:32
SPEAKER_00: So you you ideally want one of us in your back pocket to be able to then go, okay, we've got a problem.
8:37
SPEAKER_00: How do we fix it?
8:39
SPEAKER_00: Or to not have the problem in the first place.
8:42
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
8:44
SPEAKER_01: Even better.
8:45
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
8:46
SPEAKER_01: Use the term consent orders.
8:48
SPEAKER_01: One of the questions I wanted to ask you is what are the options in terms of formalizing agreements and pros and perhaps you know, basic pros and cons of each.
8:58
SPEAKER_00: So can I categorize these this into financial matters and parenting matters?
9:03
SPEAKER_00: Because the options are subtly different.
9:05
SPEAKER_00: Um, let's talk about parenting matters.
9:08
SPEAKER_00: There are three clear options for me.
9:10
SPEAKER_00: One is no document at all.
9:12
SPEAKER_00: There are many parents that navigate parenting arrangements, never having assigned anything.
9:18
SPEAKER_00: And for some families, that's perfect.
9:20
SPEAKER_00: Um, a level up from the nothing is what's called a parenting plan, which is defined at law as being any document in writing signed by two parents.
9:31
SPEAKER_00: And a parenting plan is a really useful tool.
9:34
SPEAKER_00: Um, it's not enforceable in the way that a court order is.
9:38
SPEAKER_00: And what that means is I can't take my parenting plan to a judge and say the other person didn't do what they were supposed to do, punish them or make them or do something about that.
9:46
SPEAKER_00: Um, but what a parenting plan does have under the Family Law Act is the effect that a court has to look at the terms of a parenting order and consider it if they're being asked to make a court order.
9:57
SPEAKER_00: So if you had a parenting plan and the other parent wasn't doing the right thing, it's gonna be great evidence, we lawyers would call it, where you're able to say, this is what we've all agreed to, this is what should be happening.
10:07
SPEAKER_00: And very powerful.
10:09
SPEAKER_00: But again, perfectly in a perfect world, you should never need the court process.
10:12
SPEAKER_00: And what a parenting plan does is just gives people certainty.
10:15
SPEAKER_00: So we know what we're organizing, we know whether we can go on holidays in Easter or not, or when we can go.
10:20
SPEAKER_00: Like humans need, I need to know what I'm doing when.
10:25
SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's what a parenting plan is great for.
10:27
SPEAKER_00: Then the third option for parenting is a consent order or a court order.
10:32
SPEAKER_00: So whether you have a judge make an order, whether you agree on the terms and you send it into the court and ask them to make the order for you, the same document comes from that process.
10:42
SPEAKER_00: Um, and they're great as well.
10:43
SPEAKER_00: They're more formal, of course.
10:45
SPEAKER_00: So once you've got a court order in place, um, you must comply with it, or there can be consequences.
10:51
SPEAKER_00: And the other property thing to know when you're thinking about parenting arrangements is it can be tricky to change parenting orders by um if you ultimately don't think they're working for you.
11:01
SPEAKER_00: So I like to try and work with people in the parenting plan phase, particularly in the early stage of a separation when we're trying to work out what even works.
11:08
SPEAKER_00: And then if you really need the formality of a court order, then that's the third option and a great idea.
11:14
SPEAKER_00: Um, with financial matters, I would never suggest the nothing in writing deal.
11:21
SPEAKER_00: That goes away for financial matters.
11:23
SPEAKER_00: For financial matters, we want one of two documents.
11:26
SPEAKER_00: We either want a court order, which again can be a consent order, so you've agreed, or it can be a judge has made the order.
11:33
SPEAKER_00: Um, or you will have a financial agreement, often referred to as binding financial agreements.
11:38
SPEAKER_00: Both are helpful, both are effective, both finalize the financial relationship, which is the key thing.
11:45
SPEAKER_00: You want to be able to take your share of things, go on with your life, win lotto in three years and never worry about it.
11:51
SPEAKER_00: You don't want to be in a zone where it's like, oh gosh, what if, how will, what will happen here?
11:56
SPEAKER_00: So they would be the two documents.
11:58
SPEAKER_00: There's a complicated legal conversation around should I have a court order, should I have a financial agreement?
12:04
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I I'm not even going to entertain it today because it's like 40 minutes of your podcast, you'll never get back.
12:09
SPEAKER_00: But they both work.
12:10
SPEAKER_00: And it's something, again, you'd want to have a chat to a legal advisor about the circumstances that the family have and work out which one's the best one.
12:17
SPEAKER_01: Which one works for your family, your unique circumstances?
12:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:21
SPEAKER_01: Another top question, and I think this comes from in Australia, it comes from not understanding our legal system and perhaps looking to America or other legal systems.
12:33
SPEAKER_01: Um, what are the grounds for divorce?
12:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:36
SPEAKER_01: Such a it's a great one.
12:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a good question.
12:40
SPEAKER_01: Um, why what about someone's behavior?
12:42
SPEAKER_00: You know, because the movies, it's like so cool, isn't it?
12:48
SPEAKER_00: These reasons, and I'm gonna get some great consequence because of the reasons.
12:52
SPEAKER_00: In Australia, we have what we refer to as a no-fault divorce system.
12:56
SPEAKER_00: Um, when we're talking divorce in its legal frame again, where it's the application to formally end a marriage, um, all you need to establish is that you've been separated for a year.
13:08
SPEAKER_00: So that's all it is.
13:09
SPEAKER_00: Doesn't matter how wonderful or terrible the relationship was, it's the separation for 12 months.
13:16
SPEAKER_00: Um, the poor behavior piece, that's such a broad phrase I'm using there now, um, has no relevance to the divorce.
13:26
SPEAKER_00: The poor behavior piece, if it's an affair, for example, I would still say probably has no real relevance for even a financial settlement or parenting matters.
13:37
SPEAKER_00: Maybe, maybe not, depends.
13:38
SPEAKER_00: Um, but not in it doesn't have relevance in the way that we see in the movies, where people are running around with private investigators trying to catch someone out so that they can say it was your fault and there's some consequence at law as a result of that.
13:52
SPEAKER_00: We we simply don't have that in Australia, which is a great thing.
13:58
SPEAKER_01: Who gets what?
13:59
SPEAKER_01: Now, this is an emotionally loaded question, right?
14:02
SPEAKER_01: But it's often one that we're asked in various forms.
14:07
SPEAKER_01: How much will I get?
14:08
SPEAKER_01: How much will I have to give?
14:10
SPEAKER_01: So can you explain, broad brush, how assets are divided and why it's not always just a neat 50-50 split.
14:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's no like Bible, and I so sometimes wish there was this Bible of family law outcomes where I could go, let's go to page 74, because that's the answer for us.
14:30
SPEAKER_00: So it's a discretionary system.
14:32
SPEAKER_00: Um, four steps.
14:35
SPEAKER_00: I'm conscious you could have some lawyers listening, Sally Ann.
14:37
SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna say five if you're really interested in some detailed case law, but for simplicity today, we're gonna go four steps.
14:44
SPEAKER_00: Um, the first step is to just identify and value all of the assets, the debts, the superannuation, the random money that you gave to your aunt, like all the things that people have.
14:54
SPEAKER_00: And it's the value today.
14:56
SPEAKER_00: So if you're separated a year ago, too bad, the value today.
15:01
SPEAKER_00: And if you don't sort this out for another year, it's the value in a year's time.
15:05
SPEAKER_00: And so that we all boring lawyers just have spreadsheets where we're just constantly updating, oh, look, the house value's gone up, oh, the share price has gone up, down in two days, whatever it is.
15:14
SPEAKER_00: But we just start by going, what do you even have?
15:17
SPEAKER_00: Then we look at how I say, how did you create the things that you have?
15:23
SPEAKER_00: And the phrase in the Family Law Act is looking at contributions and different types of contributions that people make.
15:29
SPEAKER_00: But if you think of it as how did we create the stuff we had?
15:32
SPEAKER_00: Was it that someone had a whole lot of things when we first met and that helped us to jump ahead?
15:37
SPEAKER_00: Was it that we both worked?
15:39
SPEAKER_00: Was it that someone worked but someone else cared for children?
15:42
SPEAKER_00: Like what happened in your family that led to a place where you have the things that you have now?
15:46
SPEAKER_00: Did you inherit a bunch of money?
15:48
SPEAKER_00: Did someone with lotto?
15:49
SPEAKER_00: Like all these things make a difference.
15:51
SPEAKER_00: And so that's why I can't say to you, and so the answer to that will always be 52.5%, because it's different in every single relationship.
15:59
SPEAKER_00: And the length of the relationship makes a difference here as well.
16:02
SPEAKER_00: So there's all lots of pieces.
16:03
SPEAKER_00: And I find myself talking like I am to you today with my hands going round about and I'm trying to weigh it up and go, oh, I imagine.
16:09
SPEAKER_00: Um, and the longer you do this work, the more cases you see and the more experience you get and being able to go.
16:15
SPEAKER_00: I think therefore the answer for you is somewhere between here and here.
16:19
SPEAKER_00: And you'll never see family lawyers going, and the answer is 52.5%.
16:23
SPEAKER_00: They'll always be like, oh, it could be anywhere from, I don't know, 45 to 65.
16:28
SPEAKER_00: Massive gap.
16:29
SPEAKER_00: So that's the second stage.
16:30
SPEAKER_00: Third stage is what does the future hold?
16:33
SPEAKER_00: We're trying to look at your financial circumstances and life circumstances today to predict the future.
16:40
SPEAKER_00: And we're thinking then again about um, is everyone working?
16:43
SPEAKER_00: If they're working, are they earning money?
16:45
SPEAKER_00: If they're not working, what does that mean?
16:47
SPEAKER_00: Could they get into the workforce?
16:48
SPEAKER_00: Are they caring for children?
16:50
SPEAKER_00: Are they caring for other people?
16:51
SPEAKER_00: Do they have health conditions that impact their future?
16:53
SPEAKER_00: Like if you just think about life and all the strange things that happen to all of us, what is happening in this family and what might that mean for the future?
17:01
SPEAKER_00: And so once that's all been balanced in again, we see ourselves going, oh, okay, well, that changes things again, you know, now we've got to adjust this percentage again.
17:09
SPEAKER_00: And the fourth step is the most confusing of all.
17:11
SPEAKER_00: So we tend to ignore it, but it's called the justice and equity.
17:14
SPEAKER_00: So we're trying to look at what's the actual impact of this?
17:17
SPEAKER_00: If we're saying that it's a 50-50 division, as you said at the beginning, what does that mean people get?
17:23
SPEAKER_00: Who's keeping what?
17:24
SPEAKER_00: How do we divide this?
17:25
SPEAKER_00: If we're saying it's 7030, like what does that mean in the scheme of things?
17:28
SPEAKER_00: And what do people get and how does that all work?
17:30
SPEAKER_00: So there's a practical piece at the end of trying to understand how does that all play in.
17:35
SPEAKER_00: Um, if I was an outsider looking in, what I'd be trying to focus on is what happened during our relationship that led us to where we are now?
17:42
SPEAKER_00: And what does the future hold as best as any human could ever predict it?
17:48
SPEAKER_00: And we're trying to balance those things in when we're um making these decisions.
17:52
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, it's a hard one, Sally.
17:54
SPEAKER_00: And there's no like nice, neat there's the answer.
17:57
SPEAKER_01: I would like the Bible to open it up and say, okay, page 78.
18:01
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
18:02
SPEAKER_00: It'd be so much easier.
18:03
SPEAKER_00: But I wonder with these AI tools how far away some of that stuff is.
18:08
SPEAKER_00: Because they can obviously analyze all of the decisions that have been made and hypothetically say, well, the court usually, in your circumstances, gives you anywhere from here to here, like massive percentage.
18:17
SPEAKER_01: There's still going to be a range, right?
18:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
18:20
SPEAKER_01: AI is going to come down to 43.796%.
18:25
SPEAKER_00: It just can't.
18:26
SPEAKER_00: And this is the discretionary piece.
18:27
SPEAKER_00: Like obviously, lawyers are basing our advice on decisions that end up in the court.
18:32
SPEAKER_00: And the research tells us that less than 3% of families end up having judges make decisions.
18:38
SPEAKER_00: So we're getting this real microcosm of the world that we live in when we look at those decisions.
18:43
SPEAKER_00: And then judges are different.
18:44
SPEAKER_00: Um, and often you go to family law conferences and they'll put the speaker or put up a here's a family.
18:51
SPEAKER_00: What do you think the outcome should be?
18:53
SPEAKER_00: And every time I've seen the range in the room, like a 40% differential.
18:58
SPEAKER_00: So, as everyone just has different ways of approaching it and we value different things, and judges are exactly the same, they're human beings.
19:04
SPEAKER_00: So, with property, what I'd be saying all the time is don't get focused on the percentage.
19:10
SPEAKER_00: It's so immaterial, really.
19:12
SPEAKER_00: Get focused on what does that outcome mean for me financially, in a very tangible sense.
19:19
SPEAKER_00: Um, and this is where financial advisors can be so helpful because they can genuinely model.
19:24
SPEAKER_00: If you do this and if you make that the financial structure, this is what it looks like for your future.
19:29
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a much more powerful way of thinking than, but did I get 51%?
19:34
SPEAKER_00: Because it was really important to me that I got more than half.
19:36
SPEAKER_01: And I I always love having a financial neutral in the midst.
19:40
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
19:40
SPEAKER_01: Because they can, as you said, model and map and can lead each person, each member of the separating couple down a pathway.
19:50
SPEAKER_01: If you do this, this it looks like this for you and looks like this for them.
19:55
SPEAKER_01: And therefore, it looks like this for your kids.
19:57
SPEAKER_00: I think in that collaborative model.
20:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:01
SPEAKER_00: And if you are working together as a couple, albeit separating, you know, we we have a commitment to paying for our kids to attend at this particular school.
20:08
SPEAKER_00: Working with those financial neutrals to say, how can we do that?
20:11
SPEAKER_00: What are our options?
20:12
SPEAKER_00: Because when you're working together, there can be some really creative tools to achieve those sorts of things.
20:17
SPEAKER_00: When you're not working together, all of that disappears.
20:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
20:22
SPEAKER_01: I mean, there are reasons that you're getting divorced, right?
20:24
SPEAKER_01: Oftentimes communication is broken down, whatever.
20:26
SPEAKER_00: But fair enough.
20:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:28
SPEAKER_01: Together and focus on this little part.
20:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's mu there's a lot of power in it.
20:34
SPEAKER_01: What if I can't find my ex-partner and I want to file for divorce?
20:37
SPEAKER_01: So we've, you know, somebody's disappeared.
20:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:41
SPEAKER_00: Um, the court's pretty good with this now.
20:42
SPEAKER_00: And again, the beauty of things like social media and technology and blah, blah, blah.
20:46
SPEAKER_00: So initially you've got to try and serve them.
20:49
SPEAKER_00: Um, then you'll set out to the court, these are the 50 steps I've taken to try and locate and serve this person.
20:54
SPEAKER_00: And you sort of end up reaching a point where the court will go, as long as you can establish you've done all the things that you can possibly do, you've told their mother you've found their old email address, whatever it is.
21:03
SPEAKER_00: There's a point where they'll probably just go, sure, you're divorced.
21:06
SPEAKER_01: Done.
21:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:09
SPEAKER_01: Um, what about the after bits?
21:11
SPEAKER_01: Changing my name back, changing kids' names.
21:15
SPEAKER_01: Do I need proof of divorce?
21:18
SPEAKER_00: So to change your name, you don't.
21:20
SPEAKER_00: And this is different in every state.
21:22
SPEAKER_00: Um, I haven't looked at this for Queensland for about two or three years.
21:25
SPEAKER_00: So I apologise if I do get this wrong.
21:27
SPEAKER_00: But the last time I looked at it, you could change your name in Queensland once a year just because knock yourself out.
21:34
SPEAKER_00: You know, it doesn't need any connection to anything.
21:36
SPEAKER_00: Just you change your name, you go for it.
21:38
SPEAKER_00: Um, I I can't comment on other states because I haven't looked at it, but as a general rule, you can change your own name without needing a divorce certificate or any of those things.
21:47
SPEAKER_00: You can simply say, I choose to now call myself Clarissa something else.
21:51
SPEAKER_00: Um, kids is much harder.
21:53
SPEAKER_00: Kids to change kids' names in a proper, appropriate, legal way, two parents should consent to that.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: And then that would be done appropriately.
22:03
SPEAKER_00: We often see um kids' names just sort of organically being changed because we just start calling them something different.
22:10
SPEAKER_00: And next thing you know, that's where we get to, and it's all fine and dandy until they're about 15 or 16 and they're trying to apply for a license, and all of the documentation does not align with the name that they think they are.
22:23
SPEAKER_00: So with changing kids' names, I would really encourage you to do it the right way.
22:30
SPEAKER_01: And it requires generally consent.
22:32
SPEAKER_00: Both parents or a court order.
22:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:35
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
22:36
SPEAKER_01: What else did I want to ask you?
22:39
SPEAKER_01: Um, time limits.
22:40
SPEAKER_01: Not how long does it take, but talk to me about the time limits.
22:44
SPEAKER_00: Time limits, yeah.
22:45
SPEAKER_00: So time limits impact us mainly in financial matters.
22:48
SPEAKER_00: Um so once you're separated, if you're in a de facto relationship, you have two years to have either finished your financial settlement or to have at the very least started a court process.
23:03
SPEAKER_00: And if you leave it after that two years, the short way of saying this is it just becomes a shit show.
23:11
SPEAKER_00: So please don't do it before the two years.
23:15
SPEAKER_00: There's always exceptions and there's always workarounds, but none of them are cheap, fun, or easy.
23:20
SPEAKER_00: So just do it before the two years.
23:23
SPEAKER_00: Um, with married couples, the time limit's different.
23:27
SPEAKER_00: So you um need to be divorced before the time limitation kicks in at all.
23:34
SPEAKER_00: And there are many people who are married that never get divorced.
23:37
SPEAKER_00: So this now creates a new risk for married couples.
23:40
SPEAKER_00: And I had this very early in my career where a couple had separated, done their property settlement, but informally, the good old, you just take this and you take that, and we'll all get on with our lives.
23:51
SPEAKER_00: And 13 years later, the wife came and said, I'm here for my property settlement.
23:57
SPEAKER_00: Thanks.
23:58
SPEAKER_00: Um, and they hadn't been divorced.
24:00
SPEAKER_00: So that's why she was able to do that.
24:02
SPEAKER_00: So for married couples, once you're divorced, you have 12 months to have finalized your property settlement or to have commenced the court process.
24:10
SPEAKER_00: And exactly as I said before, you want to make sure you do it within that time frame, or it just becomes such a difficult thing thereafter.
24:18
SPEAKER_00: But the other thing to be mindful of if you're married is if you're not proceeding with a divorce, which many people don't, and there's no technical need to, then you're just extending that time frame for the rest of eternity, which can be problematic.
24:30
SPEAKER_00: So if we're not getting divorced, that's cool.
24:33
SPEAKER_00: Please let's do our financial settlement, get our consent order, get our financial agreement, get our court order, whatever we need to make sure that that is locked in as much as it ever can be.
24:45
SPEAKER_01: I regularly say to clients, do not file yet.
24:52
SPEAKER_01: I want to rip that band-aid off.
24:54
SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm done yet.
24:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
24:56
SPEAKER_00: And it's that feeling of I did something, I've moved forward, I got my divorce.
24:59
SPEAKER_00: Like, and if you are going to do it, can you please make sure you've told your lawyer that you've done?
25:03
SPEAKER_00: Because I've certainly had that too, where the client's like, oh yeah, I did that.
25:06
SPEAKER_00: That was easy.
25:07
SPEAKER_00: When did you do that?
25:10
SPEAKER_01: All right.
25:10
SPEAKER_01: If someone's listening to this and they're just in that thinking about it stage, maybe they're secretly Googling these questions, what's the one key thing that you'd want them to hear from a legal perspective?
25:25
SPEAKER_00: I would love you to think more about the how you're going to do this than the what am I going to get?
25:31
SPEAKER_00: So if you can, if you can, and not everyone can, but if you can work together with your former partner, if you can use collaborative practice, if you can use mediation, if you can use these tools where they're set up to let families be really at the front of their own decision making.
25:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, I think, and I know from seeing it so many times, so many good things come when you can do that.
25:57
SPEAKER_00: Not everyone can, and that's okay.
25:58
SPEAKER_00: So if that's not appropriate in the family, then what I would again say is I want you to do as much research and information as you can get around what your options are for how you do this.
26:10
SPEAKER_00: Um, because even in the most difficult family situations where violence, um, urgency, all of these things exist, there can still be ways that don't need an immediate straight-to-court approach.
26:25
SPEAKER_00: And just understanding what those options are and what the costs are and what the time frames are just should mean that you're able to feel much more in control of what's happening rather than things are happening and you're just sort of being guided along a path.
26:40
SPEAKER_00: So, really asking lots of questions if you are working with advisors, asking why, asking how, asking, but what if I didn't do that?
26:47
SPEAKER_00: What else could I do?
26:48
SPEAKER_00: Just really trying to sit in that space of feeling like you're leading your ship, obviously, with advice, not the ship's just sailing and you're on the back of it.
26:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love it.
27:01
SPEAKER_01: I often say to clients, and this is speaking to the how piece, how you start it is really important.
27:09
SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, so important.
27:10
SPEAKER_01: Throw a bomb in there and blow everything up.
27:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's really hard to come back from that.
27:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and if you're the one choosing to end the relationship, end the marriage, the way you raise that with your ex-partner is important.
27:26
SPEAKER_00: The way, the timing, the location.
27:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, all of that stuff.
27:30
SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh.
27:32
SPEAKER_01: Um kids, we've barely touched on kids.
27:36
SPEAKER_01: What are what are say three to five, two or three things that you wish every parent knew about separation divorce when it comes to the kids?
27:49
SPEAKER_00: Um try and imagine that the other person is the best version of themselves, not the worst version of themselves.
27:56
SPEAKER_00: Um try and remember that there's different ways that we parent.
28:00
SPEAKER_00: I try and remind myself of that daily.
28:04
SPEAKER_00: And that not always uh right nor wrong or anything else, but we just all do things differently.
28:09
SPEAKER_00: Um kids are 23 and 21.
28:14
SPEAKER_00: Really?
28:14
SPEAKER_00: Okay, that's how you do it.
28:16
SPEAKER_00: I don't do it that way.
28:17
SPEAKER_00: Um, but that's not bad.
28:19
SPEAKER_00: It's frustrating as it might be.
28:20
SPEAKER_00: Try and remember the things that drove you nuts when you're together probably won't disappear when you separate.
28:27
SPEAKER_00: Or if they do disappear and suddenly the other person becomes amazingly efficient at the thing that used to drive you to death, then try and remind yourself that, well, the kids are going to benefit from that now.
28:38
SPEAKER_00: Would have been awesome if they could have done it three years ago, but okay, now's good too.
28:41
SPEAKER_00: Let's roll with that.
28:42
SPEAKER_00: Um, remember that your parents for life.
28:46
SPEAKER_00: No one takes that away.
28:48
SPEAKER_00: And remember that kids are resilient.
28:50
SPEAKER_00: We love to say that, but they're also not because they're humans, they're just smaller versions of us.
28:54
SPEAKER_00: And we feel everything.
28:57
SPEAKER_00: So as much as you say, oh, but they didn't hear it, they didn't see it, like energy is everything.
29:02
SPEAKER_00: That's how humans interact.
29:04
SPEAKER_00: So the minute I'm down, my kids are going to feel that, whether I want them to or not.
29:08
SPEAKER_00: The minute my tension's up, the minute my voice is a bit crackly, the minute I'm like not looking at you because I can't.
29:15
SPEAKER_00: Um, everything matters.
29:17
SPEAKER_00: And so know that.
29:21
SPEAKER_00: Adjust where you can, but know that.
29:24
SPEAKER_00: And don't try and do the, oh no, we're all good.
29:27
SPEAKER_00: Because we're not.
29:28
SPEAKER_00: We're not really, really hard.
29:29
SPEAKER_00: Was that four or five?
29:30
SPEAKER_00: I feel like that was four or five.
29:31
SPEAKER_00: Might have been ten.
29:32
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
29:33
SPEAKER_01: There's a there's enough in there, and I think you've hit the the key points.
29:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
29:38
SPEAKER_01: Um, I said I actually said to a client just earlier today, do you think you're the better parent?
29:43
SPEAKER_01: She's like, Yeah.
29:44
SPEAKER_01: Just like, and do you think he, because it's dad, do you think he's a good enough parent?
29:48
SPEAKER_01: She goes, Yeah, yeah, I do.
29:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
29:52
SPEAKER_00: So we're all just don't set out to be bad parents.
29:55
SPEAKER_00: That's not usually the life goal that everyone has.
29:58
SPEAKER_00: Um, I've just come back from court today, and you know, one of the absolute challenges today was how do I even pay for a parenting app?
30:06
SPEAKER_00: You know, for some people, just these very basic practicalities then imp, you know, impact everything.
30:13
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, again, we're not setting out to create havoc, but I've just got this very real life practical problem.
30:20
SPEAKER_00: I can't pay for this, and a whole court order depends on it.
30:23
SPEAKER_00: You just that again, like talking through, not just assuming that person's being as difficult as they can.
30:28
SPEAKER_00: Let's let's assume that there's maybe more to the story and let's just ask more questions.
30:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and perhaps they are really doing the best that they can do.
30:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
30:37
SPEAKER_01: Clarissa, thank you so much for just sharing time and your wisdom and a bit of humour.
30:44
SPEAKER_01: It's been great.
30:46
SPEAKER_00: And thank you for giving me more than 15 seconds to answer some of these questions.
30:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you answered any of those in 15 seconds, but you did a really good job.
30:55
SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much.
30:56
SPEAKER_01: No problem.
30:58
SPEAKER_01: I hope you enjoyed and got something from this conversation between Clarissa and me.
31:02
SPEAKER_01: You can connect with her via the links in the show notes.
31:06
SPEAKER_01: I'll drop a link to her website and social media accounts should you wish to follow up.
31:11
SPEAKER_01: And don't forget her book, Splitzville, is available.
31:15
SPEAKER_01: As always, thanks for being here.
31:16
SPEAKER_01: Until next week, bye for now.
31:20
SPEAKER_01: I'm Sally Ann Hartnell, divorce coach and strategist, and you've been listening to Reflect, Reclaim, and Liberate.
31:25
SPEAKER_01: You can follow me on Instagram at Reflect Coaching.
31:28
SPEAKER_01: And if you can think of anyone who would love or benefit from listening to this episode, please share it with them.
31:34
SPEAKER_01: I'd also be so grateful if you would follow and review the podcast so we can get in the ears of a whole lot more people just like you who are ready to reclaim and liberate themselves in life and love.
31:45
SPEAKER_01: I hope you'll join me next week for another episode of Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
31:49
SPEAKER_01: Until then.