Latest / Most Things Kenobi - A Star Wars Podcast / Episode 103: The Gray Jedi

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Episode 103: The Gray Jedi · Most Things Kenobi - A Star Wars Podcast

0:00
Hello there. It's most things Kenobi.
0:04
This is the podcast you're looking for.
0:19
Hi everyone, welcome to another episode of most things Kenobi.
0:22
A podcast about Obi-Wan Kenobi and all things Star Wars.
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I'm your host Leanne and I'm your host Lauren and we're back
0:31
from our one week off, which was the first week we ever took off
0:35
in the past two fucking years out of necessity.
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Really, I crashed hard. I crashed hard on this week.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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I mean it's been a lot. I've been and you have it a lot
0:49
going on in your house with Renovations and honestly how do
0:53
you even follow up an interview like that with James Arnold
0:56
Taylor? You don't you just take a pause
0:59
regroup and come back. So we're back.
1:05
Oh man. Was that cool though that this
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last episode that we did with James is probably one of our
1:11
best. I'm very proud of that episode
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of. Yes, it was a good interview.
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I think it was fun. At least I hope our listeners.
1:18
Most of the Feedback. We've gotten has been very
1:20
positive, so very positive, not only that, but James being the
1:23
kind-hearted soul that he is, he didn't even have to do this, but
1:26
he shouted us out you and I on his podcast recently.
1:30
So, that's he said, thank you to us.
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Yeah. I did not expect it.
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Yeah. It was very kind.
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So, once again, thanks James. Thank you.
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We'll just keep this circle of thank yous going until the end
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of time. So this week we are diving into
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something controversial which I can't even believe this is
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controversial honestly I don't get it either me, neither me
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neither. We're going to chat about gray
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Jedi and hopefully it's not anger the internet.
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Well let me ask you a question. Yes.
2:10
Do you believe in the gray? Jedi?
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Yes, I do under certain circumstances because there's
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two definitions of gray Jedi. So yes, right and I believe in
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it too and guess what? Brace yourselves.
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Okay. We're still Star Wars fans and
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all of you out there, all of you out there who don't believe in
2:34
the gray. Jedi, you're still Star Wars
2:37
fans. Yes, what an excellent point
2:41
mind. Blown Oh, what an idea it was
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gonna be different opinions. Yeah.
2:51
But it is interesting. It's very interesting and it's
2:55
more than I realized because I did do some research for it.
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It's way more complicated and there's more specific
3:01
definitions than I realized were out there so it was yes, very
3:06
interesting to research, I learned a lot.
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Do We Begin by reading what the gray Jedi code is because, you
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know, The Sith and the Jedi have their codes as we know and it
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turns out that the gray, Jedi also have a bit of a code.
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I have. Yes, if you have one, you want
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to read. What I found is that there are
3:24
multiple there are, there are, but the one I like the most, the
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one that makes the most sense, given what I know about the
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gray, Jedi is this, there is no light without the dark, through
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passion, I gain Focus through knowledge, I gain power through
3:43
See, I gained strength through victory, I gained Harmony.
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There is only the force I like that because there's some kind
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of balance it's the yin and the Yang you can't have Darkness
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without light you know you can't appreciate good things without
4:01
knowing the bad things you know? Yes for sure.
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And I think people argue that it's it's totally in a position
4:10
to a George. Lucas was arguing about the
4:13
force, which I don't think is actually true.
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If you've seen the mortise Arc, I don't think true true but I
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think what it is showing is that and I think that was his point a
4:25
little bit is extremism or fundamentalism in either
4:29
direction isn't good because I someone played a clip of him
4:33
talking to the his room of writers using it as an example
4:36
of why gray doesn't work. And, in my opinion, it was
4:40
explaining why being right down the middle is what you want.
4:43
You don't want to be a Sith and like Jedi are selfless but if
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you're too selfless you lose your sense of self and your
4:50
Humanity. Mmm.
4:52
So it's like finding that middle ground and I don't think Well
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let's start with how about we explain what the two definitions
5:04
of gray Jedi are that would be a great place to start because if
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anyone is unfamiliar, there's a whole thing behind, what a great
5:13
Jedi is. Yes, there's two specific
5:18
definitions in one is a force user who uses both the light
5:24
side and the dark. So a lot of times it's a Jedi
5:29
who turns away from the Jedi Code so to speak and will allow
5:34
themselves to use the dark side and explore all facets of the
5:39
force. Then there's the definition of a
5:43
gray Jedi, who kind of turns away from the Jedi Council
5:46
specifically and doesn't follow a code.
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They followed the force and they don't have to use the dark side
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like that. Definition doesn't necessarily
5:55
mean a Jedi, using the dark and the light.
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It just means When the force whatever that means to them.
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Well, I can think of like three Jedi right off the top of my
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head that come to mind whenever I hear that definition.
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Yeah. Saying I do, I do think it's a
6:10
dangerous game to mingle in the dark because if you're touching
6:14
the dark, it has a way of grabbing hold of, even the most
6:18
well-intended Jedi. So I think the first definition
6:21
you gave kind of allows for a little more.
6:27
He got to be a lot real, real cautious.
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Well, I think that's the definition that angers people
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and they're like, you don't understand the force and that's
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not what George Lucas met like. I think when people are talking
6:38
about that part of it, I get why people are upset about.
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Honestly, also, I don't get why people are upset because it's
6:44
that real life but well there's that.
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Yeah, I mean this is a fictional story that doesn't really exist.
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But yeah, so I guess Lee talking about the gray Jedi is talking
6:55
about a much larger topic. It's, can you be black and white
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and Or should you live in the gray?
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And I'm talking like, can you be strictly committed to one side
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and one side only in your life? Or should there be balanced and
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take, Jedi, take the word, Jedi, right, out of it.
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Yes. Yeah, it's an examination.
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This whole episode is an examination on, you know, can
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you dabble in the gray and still remain true to, you know, your
7:23
own beliefs or whatever and still do good with it?
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If you touch a little? Did I think that I answer is
7:28
yes. I think.
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So too, because while researching this that came
7:32
across the dark Jedi, which I would love to do an episode
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about also that's the other side of things, right?
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Because Ventress is a really good example, of a dark Jedi
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that she was sits, she studied the dark side, and then she kind
7:47
of went her own way, and used her power, but didn't
7:52
necessarily use it for bad after she left the Sith.
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So right, there's a whole nother.
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Area. She's kind of like a Jedi who
8:03
left the council. She's a Sith that left the Sith,
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and then like didn't quite make it into all the way into the
8:10
gray. She's living in the dark grey
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so, and we love her for it, but the murky area.
8:19
Yeah, interest here. So yeah, I don't know, I think I
8:24
would consider myself a gray Jedi all the way because there's
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no fucking way I would. I would, how do I phrase it?
8:31
There's no way. I would remain strict to the
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code. I'm thinking Qui-Gon Jinn.
8:37
Hmm. Yeah.
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Same, I'm thinking Ahsoka, I'm thinking Ray.
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There was no code at this time for Ray and she used Force
8:45
lightning, but for a good reason, she tried to save chewy
8:48
on the ship and stop the ship from leaving.
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And that Force lightning is no, no, isn't it like yeah, it's
8:56
right up there with a force choke or Whatever the force
9:00
Crush, you know, crushed. Yeah.
9:03
I so I thought it was very interesting.
9:05
I read about this the most of the stuff is Legends right for
9:10
the most part because gray Jedi are not Cannon, right?
9:15
Every reference for the most part.
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Even when they use the term, I believe, if there is the term
9:21
used gray Jedi, it's always in a Legends scenario, but there was
9:26
this guy. Kyle katarn.
9:30
Have you heard of this character?
9:31
I have this. I think he's from a video game.
9:34
I think it's the Old Republic. Is it okay?
9:37
So thanks. Thank you.
9:38
He was like a stormtrooper right?
9:39
Who then joined the rebellion and realized he was forced
9:42
sensitive. Oh my God.
9:43
Who does that sound like Finn? Yeah.
9:47
Right seriously, actually. That's a good point.
9:51
I wonder if it is based on him. I mean the guy's name is Kyle,
9:56
so he's another one up there. Are with what are the names that
10:01
we named dogs? Like some really pedestrian male
10:04
names? What was it?
10:06
Like Bob Skywalker's. Yeah.
10:08
Bob Skywalker and Evan and Jo and Peter.
10:13
And now Kyle is in on the mix master Kyle.
10:21
But he, he kind of expressed this idea that The force isn't
10:28
Affiliated. It's neither light, nor
10:31
Darkness, the Sara Lee, like it has a tendency when it's
10:33
imbalanced be on the light side and darkness comes in and tips
10:36
the balance. But there's this idea.
10:39
I think they called the potentially mm Theory, and it's
10:42
actually mentioned in a Legends book.
10:46
That the, the allegiance of the force is determined by the user.
10:52
Not the force itself. Absolutely.
10:54
So there there's There is no Darkness.
10:58
There's dark people who use the force and dark ways.
11:01
And I guess they retconned this to be like a Sith ideology or
11:04
something like that. But I think it's actually I
11:09
think that makes a lot of sense personally.
11:12
Well it's it's it's like a weapon that can be used for good
11:18
or bad you know and only when it's used for bad is it
11:21
destructive but if you use it for good you know in defense
11:25
mode like so many Said I did then you know, if you're
11:28
battling an opponent and you're on the defense you're still
11:31
fighting them but I don't even know if that's a good example.
11:35
Maybe I'll cut this but but power power has the ability to
11:39
be used for good or corrupt the person exactly?
11:42
Yes, yes, yes, yes. That's kind of what I was
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getting at. Yeah.
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But how do you know if it's good?
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If you don't know bad, right? Right.
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That's it. That's this is where it gets
11:54
into the like larger fee. Softball question of what is
11:58
good? What is bad?
12:00
And that's determines like by a sense of social norms, I guess.
12:05
I mean, you could say, the goodness is and evil or maybe
12:08
inherent because they quote existed at the beginning of the
12:11
universe. Or did they like the if you
12:13
believe in things, like the big bang was there?
12:15
Such a thing as evil and good at that time.
12:18
You know, like I do this, get it way far off into like LOL and
12:24
here but that's That's ultimately where you come down
12:27
to, how do you know, what's good and what's bad?
12:31
Well, this is the question that we have asked on this show to
12:34
ourselves and to others is it brings up.
12:38
The question of were the Jedi were the Jedi Knights
12:41
peacekeepers. During the war they were still
12:44
following the code that were following the council but they
12:48
were actually doing harm in some ways they were fighting.
12:52
They were killing. They like there were actual
12:54
casualties in what they were doing it.
12:57
This happens in The Avengers because not to cross fandoms but
13:01
a lot of people argue that the Avengers did a lot more bad than
13:06
they did. Good.
13:07
And I'm thinking of the Winter Soldier movie where they went
13:09
into whatever town or city that was and like they literally blew
13:13
up the place to save something and in doing so they killed a
13:18
bunch of people. I think about that every time I
13:21
watch a superhero movie and something crashes into a
13:24
building of like how many people were in that building, just
13:27
people didn't ask for this because you're in some kind of
13:30
game with trying to fight evil and you know, it's the same
13:32
thing in Star Wars. There's so many casualties but
13:35
it's one of those things where It's like the it's like the
13:39
necessary evil of you have to go in.
13:43
You have to do this job and others might suffer because of
13:45
it for the greater good. Now, you could think of that on
13:48
a galactic scale, essentially, that's what the rebels were
13:50
doing. But as we saw in and or there's
13:53
a lot of scummy bad decisions that are being made on behalf of
13:58
the greater good, right? Which it's like what is good?
14:01
What is bad and to what end I like that Star Wars doesn't shy
14:06
away from As well. It's even a clone wars to an
14:09
exit, and then you see it in and or because at the beginning of,
14:12
well, not the beginning, but like is and or is a child like
14:14
when Cassie cat Casa is a child? That's a republic ship that goes
14:19
down. Yeah, yeah.
14:21
And it's not all of that Mining and the way his planet was
14:27
ruined was Republic. Yes, because he was kind of like
14:30
a separatist. They even kind of imply, that at
14:33
certain points. So like as a child until the
14:36
empire, Fire came. You know, people were kind of
14:38
like in the outlying but they were still affected and they
14:41
talked about in Clone Wars with the Mandalore thing with Satine,
14:44
trying to argue like the fucking Senate votes to invade her
14:49
Planet without her getting a say Rose, like, what the fuck is
14:53
that? And then the lurmen are another
14:55
good example. Excellent example, the Jedi are
14:59
there and they're protecting. But also like maybe the
15:03
separatists are there because the Jedi are there, you know,
15:06
it's like It's, yeah, it's difficult.
15:09
Yeah, it's it's complicated. It's a gray area.
15:13
It is. So what else did you research?
15:20
Well, there was an actual. Well again, this is Legends.
15:24
There was a faction of actual like gray, Jedi another.
15:30
I'm going to be able to pronounce this correctly.
15:31
The Gents are, I don't know if you've heard of them.
15:36
So this was is this very messy and complicated, whoever came up
15:41
with this idea, I feel like they like got themselves into a
15:44
spider's web and didn't know how to get out of it.
15:47
But the idea is that it was during the Clone Wars, there was
15:52
a Jedi who found a holocron that was a forbidden holocron in the
15:57
Jedi archives, and he listened to it, read from it, learn from
16:00
it. And inside was a message that
16:04
the Jedi and the Sith had once been the same and they learned
16:09
from the same foundation. And then the Jedi took
16:12
everything they could from the Sith and then outcasted them and
16:16
treated them like the evil. Ones and the Jedi are then,
16:20
founded on an evil foundation. And so, this guy goes off and
16:25
starts. His own faction called The Gents
16:30
awry. And they are supposed to be gray
16:32
Jedi where they use, Darkness and Light.
16:36
But it turns out, that that whole holocron was planted by a
16:40
CID of course to make the Jedi fracture from within.
16:45
So like it didn't end up going anywhere and this Is all legends
16:50
anyway, but they particularly, like hated Obi-Wan Kenobi
16:53
because he was Wow, real Jedi, and of course, other stuff.
16:58
So, yeah, they hate us because they ain't him.
17:03
Exactly. I could see that.
17:07
Yeah, I would hate Perfection to if I if I wasn't perfect, which
17:12
I'm not. But I'm saying, like, if I was a
17:13
Sith, I would hate the antithesis synthesis of me,
17:17
which is Obi-Wan Kenobi. Be Wicked OB for sure.
17:22
So that is perfect hair. Sorry.
17:24
Yeah. No, it's true.
17:26
He's like perfect in every way and its really, really is.
17:28
It's this stupid anyway, yeah. So but then I also came across
17:36
Bend you. Yes.
17:38
Okay, yes. I saw this too.
17:41
All right. Yeah, go ahead.
17:43
No nothing. I mean, just like he is the
17:45
perfect example of that middle ground?
17:48
Yes. Which is now Cannon.
17:51
Yeah. Yeah, sorry everybody.
17:53
But yeah it's okay I love the Bindu.
17:58
And I love that Kanan who is actually an incredibly good.
18:01
Jedi had an interaction with the Bindu and at first, he scared me
18:09
at first and then he didn't but then he did and I can totally
18:12
see why he's somewhere in that gray.
18:16
Where if you treat it right, you can get good from it.
18:19
If you treat it wrong you can get.
18:21
It's like yes take take the information but take it with
18:26
very Extreme Caution, you know? It's like the father and mortis,
18:30
exactly. So here's here's where all this
18:34
comes together because because Kanan was good.
18:37
He could gather from it, did Ahsoka, Ahsoka was with the
18:39
band. Do it one time, right?
18:40
Or is their art from? There's art of her.
18:43
The Dave, filoni drew that I'm looking at right now it makes
18:46
total sense, because in my opinion, Ahsoka is very gray.
18:50
She lives in the gray, she's been ousted by the Jedi Code or
18:54
I'm sorry, the Jedi Council and then she chose to not return.
18:58
Earn. So and it's just like Qui-Gon
19:01
Jinn and and in my opinion, Qui-Gon Zen came to untimely,
19:05
but he would have been an extremely successful.
19:07
Jedi just like Ahsoka is an extremely successful Jedi.
19:11
Hmm. And you kind of have to live
19:15
through the darkness and and the fact that Ahsoka was there at
19:17
mortise and went through this Rebirth of You know all you know
19:22
as we know from the mortise Ark. Yes.
19:25
She quite literally turned dark and then was brought back to
19:28
life by having the spirit of good put inside her like yeah.
19:32
If anyone's balanced she is. Holy shit, physically and
19:36
mentally. He's just but she chooses you
19:40
could think of all the shit that happened to us Sokka.
19:42
She could have so easily turned dark, just like Obi-Wan, all of
19:46
them hurt in the loss and the Betrayal but no, these Remained
19:51
good and they they kept that fine balance, you know, intact
19:58
Obi-Wan for instance, just stayed true to the code to the
20:02
very end and that's that Ahsoka did not and became was still an
20:08
extremely successful Jedi. So, There's a lot of black and
20:16
white and very much gray. Yeah.
20:18
Well, and the thing that kind of gets me with Ahsoka and Qui gonn
20:25
is they don't really have attachment.
20:28
No, they don't have, they care about people, obviously Ahsoka
20:33
and Rex have a very deep past. But there's this aloofness to
20:37
her in Rebels, where and even in Mandalorian, you know, it's like
20:41
she's warm, but she doesn't let people into Too close and
20:46
Qui-Gon was kind of the same, he was warm but he never liked.
20:51
He did not his, his judgment wasn't clouded by attachment.
20:55
And and I think clouded by other things like an obsession with
21:00
the What's the word I'm looking? The prophecies.
21:05
But yes that's different and and I love Ahsoka and Qui gonn in
21:11
particular because they would not be told what to do.
21:16
If they would not go along with something if they felt, it was
21:19
wrong. Yeah.
21:22
So why does that make them any less of a Jedi?
21:24
It's really, it's really I mean in the eyes of the council, I
21:27
should say sure because wasn't Qui-Gon kind of frowned upon On.
21:32
You don't even know, people even even Obi-Wan.
21:35
Even says like, oh, you shouldn't do that.
21:37
It should just go along with the car, the the council, and my
21:40
guys just like, oh you have so much to learn young Padawan,
21:43
there's some form of that phrase, you know?
21:45
And it's like that's maturity and seeing a lot more of the
21:50
council than say, somebody younger has and knowing ya that
21:54
the limit of it. Yeah.
21:56
Anybody following something blindly without question, you
22:00
run the risk of Really pulled far into something and something
22:06
you might not even agree with and you might get neck deep in
22:10
it before you turn around and be like, wait, what, how did I get
22:13
here? What am I doing?
22:15
And I think Anakin started to have that to you see 100
22:18
personally in the last couple seasons of Clone Wars and then
22:21
Revenge of the Sith where he was unfortunately primed by
22:25
Palpatine the whole time. So that when that doubt came in,
22:29
he turned to the dark side, whereas Ahsoka, oh, was she had
22:32
that doubt turn to herself and the force?
22:36
Yes, what there is only the force.
22:40
Yeah, which is why Qui-Gon is so amazing of a character to me.
22:46
I know some people really hate Qui-Gon, but what, who show them
22:49
to me? I've heard, I have a whole bunch
22:52
of messages in my Tumblr. People shit-talking Qui-Gon.
22:56
They don't like it because he abandons Obi-Wan and they feel
23:00
higher. I get that I get It and guess,
23:03
guess what? There's still Star Wars fans.
23:05
Yes exam want to repeat this throughout this episode.
23:11
You can think what you want in Star Wars.
23:13
And still be a Star Wars fan. This is true.
23:16
Yes. So I had this thought while
23:19
doing this research that the whole reason that Qui-Gon and
23:25
Obi-Wan, and Yoda, and Luke can preserve their Consciousness
23:29
after death is because of Qui God, On 100% the fact that he
23:35
didn't listen to the Jedi Council that he went and studied
23:38
other forms of the force that he found things fascinating and
23:42
would pursue them, because the force touched his heart to do
23:45
that, they must the force, they the midi-chlorians, whatever he
23:50
Wills. We must have found him worthy
23:52
enough to reveal this insane secret that no other Jedi and
23:57
Millennia had. Hmm.
23:59
So he's The middle ground. He's the gray area and so worthy
24:07
of the wills that they reveal this crazy.
24:11
This crazy thing that no Jedi has ever believed before.
24:14
They did not believe his room survived after death in any way.
24:18
Yeah. They believed you joined the
24:19
force. That was what they believe.
24:22
Well, you brought up and I find this very interesting, you
24:25
brought up the fact that Ahsoka and Qui gonn did not have they
24:30
stayed completely attached from any kind of attachment and isn't
24:34
that what the Jedi code? And the council wanted of a
24:38
Jedi. Hmm, you can't say the same
24:42
about a lot of other Jedi but these two quite literally
24:47
remained detached forever, not in a cold way, but in a warm
24:53
friendly like you described and they're still considered
24:58
somewhere in the gray. So does the council, or would
25:03
the council if they still existed, have a problem with
25:07
them still? Or would they applaud them for
25:10
their lack of attachment even though they're being they're
25:13
questioning the council and the code itself, right?
25:17
They would probably applaud that lack of attachment but I do feel
25:21
like especially nearing the end of the council's, existence,
25:25
they started to be much more. It seems like they only Did
25:30
people to follow what they said? Hmm, you know, they didn't give
25:35
any room. Like, how many times did they
25:38
send Obi-Wan on these insane missions?
25:41
That were actually really damaging in the long-term to
25:44
Anakin and Obi-Wan? And isoka?
25:46
Ultimately I was going to say definitely damaging to Anakin.
25:50
Yeah I'm pretty sure Palpatine knew it was going to be damaging
25:54
to Anakin and thus sent made sure to send him.
25:57
It's part of his grand plan. Exactly.
26:00
But in the meantime, he developed a Soca as a side that
26:04
he didn't even know as like a as like a I'm having trouble with
26:09
words today, I'm so sorry. She's like the unexpected
26:14
consequence of trying to manipulate and brainwash Anakin
26:20
intern Palpatine ended up creating one of the greatest
26:23
Jedi that ever lived. Technically.
26:25
I mean, if you want to go that route, she lives in the balance.
26:28
She's she made it to the end. So, Beak.
26:30
She was like the best of what Anakin had to offer.
26:34
Precisely. Yeah, so there's the balance.
26:37
There's the balance, the Son, and the daughter, you could
26:41
compare. Yes.
26:45
It's coming full circle now. That's why I love the mortise
26:50
dark because it shows there is an extreme on either side and
26:55
then there's the father in the middle and he has great power
26:59
and a great Burden that he carries being in charge of
27:04
controlling these two Powers. But even he succumbed, he said,
27:09
I made a grave mistake, I was a fool, mmm, to not see what was
27:15
happening with his son and his daughter and the greater plan
27:17
and blah, blah blah, like all this stuff, right?
27:20
So it does there is some somewhere in there, you miss
27:25
stuff, just like the father missed stuff.
27:28
Yes for sure. There's No, like protection.
27:32
There's no perfection in any of these forms.
27:36
But if you're trying to find the closest alignment with the force
27:43
that, I feel like the gray Jedi is the way to go, where you're
27:47
not. And I don't mean like having
27:50
little dark power. Yeah, right.
27:51
But if you think about it, Bend you was fucking scary.
27:55
He was he wanted that storm. It was terrifying but he was
28:00
violets. He's right in the middle.
28:03
Right? He's not aligned with Lighter
28:04
dark. You just don't want to To piss
28:07
him off. Well, that reminds me the been
28:10
do wasn't original George. Lucas thing.
28:12
We talked about it in the wills episode that we did this.
28:16
So, down the line, this is still kind of Cannon, right?
28:22
I mean a little bit not by definition but in the sense that
28:27
there are gray entities like the been do.
28:30
Yeah and I think that all the shows you know, with filoni and
28:35
Jon Favreau They're kind of trying to take, remember how
28:40
when we talked about the wills. I think it was in the Wheels
28:42
episode where we talked about George Lucas's plan for his,
28:45
yes, Trilogy. Yes, the shows are kind of
28:48
taking those ideas and slowly integrating them.
28:52
So, I think the been do was one of the first places that because
28:58
it was the Jedi been do, right? That was like, one of the first,
29:00
that's correct. Deep cut references from George,
29:03
Lucas back in the day. So, I think.
29:08
He that character is so beautifully, performed to buy.
29:13
What's his name? Tom Baker, who was one of the
29:16
doctors from Doctor Who his voice is so perfect.
29:21
His voice is fantastic and he does it.
29:23
He has that edge to it, where it's kind of in, okay, it kind
29:27
of reminds me of The Wizard of Oz when he's high as yes.
29:33
Exactly. Are you following me and then
29:35
like when you meet um it's just diminutive If it's just a voice
29:39
changer, but like he has that kind of scary Willie.
29:42
Help me Willie not help me. Like, what do I do?
29:44
Kind of voice. It's really good.
29:46
Yeah, it's really good. Yeah, it's kind of, it's the
29:48
kind of voice that makes me feel like, glass or it's not deep and
29:52
warm. Like, it can be, he can have
29:55
that deep resonance. But it's also like harsh and
29:57
like, yes, selective and brittle and he can pitch up where you're
30:01
just like, he's mad. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
30:04
I really. I really love the band do
30:08
because he's mysterious and just I don't know.
30:12
I like the mystery of it. I do too.
30:15
And it's like, is he an animal? Is he Earth.
30:18
Is he a plant? Right?
30:20
Right. You always having all these
30:22
things? Yeah.
30:24
And I think that's what I love about some of the animals.
30:28
Like The Loft. Wolves are a good example
30:30
because they're like they are just the force.
30:34
Yeah, I know, you know, they could be scary, they're big
30:39
animals, they're predators and so, yeah, that could be scary,
30:43
but it's kind of more that nature, you know, like sometimes
30:48
nature is brutal, but it's Yahweh, it's the balance, it's
30:51
the cycle. That's how it's supposed to be.
30:54
And so, I think that the, the ven du and the Loft, wolves are
30:58
great examples of just like the living Force.
31:02
Hmm. But they weren't scary for us.
31:04
Ezra Ezra was able to befriend them and call upon them and they
31:07
came because they trusted azra and they knew his for Signature
31:12
was good and and it's like it's like that thing where it keeps
31:18
saying it, the gray can be good in the gray can be bad depending
31:22
on the user which is something you said and I pray fully
31:25
believe that I fully believe in that.
31:27
Yeah yeah. Well and those I don't remember
31:31
what they're called, but in Rebels, there's the likes.
31:34
Her animals. Whatever the Remember, by the
31:36
been do. I fucking hate those?
31:38
I don't want to talk about those.
31:39
No, I don't. Like, I don't either.
31:41
But then they like, I can't watch any of any of those
31:44
episodes, but they're also forced centered.
31:47
You know, it's like to us, it's horrific.
31:50
I don't want anything to do with that.
31:51
But again, it's an example of, like, just because it's gross,
31:54
doesn't mean it's in, its pure form, I know I feel really bad
31:58
saying that because I feel bad for hating snakes and spiders
32:04
and stuff like in real life. But I know that they're
32:07
creatures that deserve to be here and that they serve a
32:09
purpose and just because they fucking make, give me the
32:11
willies. That doesn't make them bad,
32:14
right? I'm the same.
32:15
I mean I have like a phobia for Real where I actually feel like
32:19
I'm going to be ill when I think about this stuff, but yeah, but
32:22
it's supposed to be here just like yes, you know, those
32:26
creatures that are potentially horrific Star Wars like they
32:30
deserve Purity as well. So it's kind of It's an
32:34
interesting thought because our instinct is to be revolted.
32:40
Yeah. Well I mean, think of the Wampa,
32:43
we see we saw one holding the elevator door for people at
32:47
Celebration who knew that wompus were so kind, I'm still not over
32:52
that. A waffle holding the elevator
32:54
door, come on in, they're so polite, Luke had it all wrong,
33:00
the Stormtroopers that we saw on the train.
33:03
I was, I was just like, Hmm. Yeah.
33:04
Worlds colliding. Sorry.
33:07
I just a Wampa in an elevator is too much for me but I really
33:13
like the gray concept. It doesn't need to be Cannon for
33:18
me to enjoy it. Like many things in Legends.
33:22
Well yeah, I don't feel like I need a specific definition.
33:25
Like we were, I think we said this with mishaela in our 100th
33:29
episode just because it's not an official, doesn't mean that's
33:32
not what the characters are. Yeah.
33:34
Like sorry. But there are characters who are
33:37
right down the middle who aren't Jedi and who aren't Sith?
33:40
What are you going to call them gray?
33:41
Jedi call them whatever you want.
33:43
That's what they are. Is right down the middle.
33:47
Yes. So I don't understand the
33:50
controversy, really, I don't either, but I don't understand.
33:54
I don't understand a lot of Star Wars controversy.
33:56
I'm just here for the fun and it's fun to think about this
33:59
kind of stuff. I mean, yeah, there's just so
34:03
much available to consider in this world of Star Wars, and I
34:06
don't think we should limit ourselves to some things because
34:11
it's a whole big wide world out there in that Galaxy, you know.
34:15
Well, and you how many times have we thought?
34:18
We had an idea, right? And then something new comes out
34:21
and yes, we're wrong. So I'm quite glad though I mean
34:26
that was really cool in The Last Jedi and not that that's my
34:30
favorite. But when Luke said, it's time
34:32
for the Jedi to end. I wasn't like what how dare he
34:35
it was like okay explained about tell me more.
34:38
Yeah and he even said the Jedi had hubris and it was part of
34:42
their downfall and suicide he was right with you that He's a
34:46
gray Jedi as a result of it. Well, I was going to ask you.
34:50
Do you think Luke falls into this category?
34:54
I mean, if we were to, he's so good but he's emotional, you
35:00
know, he will go out of his way to not, listen to save his
35:04
friends. Still there.
35:05
The good is still there because he's doing good.
35:07
But like you know recklessly leaving his training like yoga
35:10
Yoda was like why is this guy Walker?
35:12
He's Reckless. There he goes like, you know
35:14
what I mean? But, But it doesn't do that
35:17
after he learns from that he doesn't really associate with
35:22
anything. He's just he's going to build a
35:24
new Jedi Council, we know that and teach him from a different
35:28
point of view. One that Strays from the
35:30
original Jedi theme Jedi thought process Jedi yeah form to make
35:38
them a little more balanced and a now that we know that we're
35:40
getting another movie with Daisy Ridley and her dabbling in This
35:46
perhaps we'll get more on the gray concept.
35:49
Maybe she's gonna start a school of gray Jedi and the
35:52
twitterverse will explode. Probably.
35:55
I mean, I just hope Finn is with her because Finn deserves so
36:00
much more for his character. And since we literally just
36:03
described him in talking about this, seriously, he would be an
36:08
excellent example. Excellent.
36:11
You know, you got to have the dark in order to have the light
36:15
you If everything was perfect, what fun would that be?
36:19
Okay, don't challenge me on that.
36:20
But you know what I'm saying? Like the level of appreciation,
36:25
goes way up for a sunrise. When there's a sunset.
36:28
You know what I mean? Absolutely.
36:30
And I think that talking about Luke is a good example of that.
36:34
And even James brought this up in the interview, because
36:36
Obi-Wan has that moment where he says, you know, he says, like,
36:40
only the weak embrace, the dark side, and he is, kind of.
36:45
And he even said, said that, he feels like Obi-Wan has a lot
36:47
going on underneath that. He never lets out and it's to
36:52
me, I've always taken that line. As Obi-Wan knows, he has
36:55
Darkness, because we all do. We all have?
36:58
We have a temper, we have frustration, and it's how we
37:02
choose to participate in that emotion, that makes us who we
37:06
are. And so, he acknowledges, I think
37:08
that he has Darkness, but chooses to not give that agency
37:13
in his life, you know? And so I Luke is similar.
37:18
Luke has a temper. We've seen it from the
37:20
beginning. He has the ability to rush in
37:22
without thinking now maybe that's not an ability to see
37:27
being a Skywalker. Exactly.
37:30
Who he is. But I think he also isn't held
37:35
back by the attachment. He has for his sister and his
37:39
best friend and eventually his nephew which then he is that o
37:44
goes off in America. Anything.
37:46
But yeah. What?
37:47
So in Return of the Jedi you see the rage that enters Luke Sighs
37:51
and he does dip his toe into the dark side before being like, oh
37:56
wait a minute, what have I done? Not gonna do this and he
37:59
immediately stops. So yeah, I think that he I think
38:05
he could be considered a great Jedi.
38:07
I'm not sure. I think of him that way because
38:09
I think of him is such a pure Jedi picanha.
38:13
If you look at him compared to Jedi from The Republic.
38:17
He's nothing like them. Yeah, exactly.
38:19
That would be. My point.
38:21
Is that if you compare them I don't look at him as a gray Jedi
38:24
either. I look at Ahsoka and Qui-Gon and
38:27
Ray. I look at them as great more
38:31
great grayer than Luke but Luke has dipped his toe and like you
38:35
said it but he made that choice, you know?
38:37
And then in the end he understood through his studies.
38:41
How wrong and how far the Jedi strayed from Balance from The
38:46
Balancing point and how bad that it was for them.
38:50
So he had this knowledge kind of like hindsight's 20/20 right?
38:55
He saw everything that already happened and realized this is
38:57
wrong. We can make this better by dot
39:00
dot dot, whatever he wanting to do so that it was him
39:05
experiencing the dark seeing and seeing what worked and what
39:08
didn't? And I don't think I see him ever
39:11
using the dark to, you know, to do anything.
39:14
I'm gonna chokes those Gomorrah Ian's with, that's the truth,
39:18
get it. But I mean, I mean that's why I
39:24
feel like, Jabba's Palace is a good example.
39:27
He goes in there, ready to fight if necessary, he chokes people
39:30
out coming through the door, starts to fight right away.
39:33
And oh, yeah, that's not what the Jedi would do during the
39:36
Republic era. So, Anakin might have done that
39:41
but I think it would have done it and then re done it if you
39:44
didn't like how he did it the first time.
39:49
Wait wait wait, I wasn't harsh enough.
39:50
Let me go back out and re-enter hang on.
39:55
Yeah of him I do too. So, yeah, I think personally for
40:00
me if I want like if I'm going to be a Jedi, I want to be like
40:04
Luke. I want to be that kind of Jedi
40:06
because I think he realized the code.
40:09
It is a good foundation, but it can't be lived by.
40:12
And from what I read to the Jedi didn't use to have the no
40:15
attachment code that was added into the code later because
40:18
well, I mean Qui-Gon did have attachment with the.
40:21
What's her name, right? All yes.
40:24
But that's a different. Well, that's Legends.
40:28
But there is a reference to a cannon relationship.
40:31
He had that they Dooku. I think, or maybe it's not
40:36
Dooku. It's the other guy rail avarice
40:38
in. Master and Apprentice book.
40:40
He teases Qui-Gon and is like, what happened?
40:43
Like, don't give me shit. Don't you remember how you went
40:46
and fell in love with a Wookie or something?
40:49
I don't know. I'll walkie.
40:51
Yeah, I think it was a Wookie. I'm not sure.
40:54
I looked up the person's name and I was like did quagga fall
40:58
in love with a Wookiee. I'm sorry.
41:00
Right now, I'm thinking of that Instagram account of like, sorry
41:04
if no one knows what I'm talking about.
41:06
Look it up but it's like a female Bigfoot.
41:09
Foot who walks around with a bow in her hair and she dances songs
41:13
on Instagram. That's the, that's the Wookiee
41:15
I'm thinking I love this idea so much.
41:20
Oh my God, I'm gonna look at this up if you know you know if
41:24
you don't then I just gave you a mental image that you probably
41:27
never be able to get rid of. Oh my God.
41:33
I love it. Okay.
41:37
So I would be a great Jedi. I would be more like a Sokka.
41:39
I there's no way I could ever live with a code.
41:42
I'm sorry. The council, I can't I can't
41:45
with the council. So if I were to be like anyone,
41:48
I would want to be, like I said, okay, number one because she has
41:50
two blades. And number two, she doesn't
41:53
follow the counsel and I like that about her but she still out
41:57
there doing good and helping where she can at all.
41:59
Times. And that's in essence, the best
42:03
form of a gray Jedi. If we're considering her as one,
42:08
I think so. I think that the old ways of the
42:11
Jedi, you know, the Republic ways that they were inactive on
42:15
certain things, they were passive about certain things and
42:19
I think Ahsoka is a great example about of how being
42:25
proactive can be a very positive thing that the Jedi Could have
42:30
used, you know, for sure. And we're all still Star Wars
42:36
fans. Yes, we are.
42:44
So this week, our question for our listeners, do you believe
42:49
the gray Jedi? Are you a fan of it?
42:51
Do you like it? Or are you really opposed to it?
42:53
And if so, tell us why, we would love to hear your thoughts on
42:56
this next week's episode is a dedication episode essentially.
43:03
The character of Princess Leia and the incredible woman who
43:09
played her Carrie Fisher because Carrie Fisher just got her star
43:13
on the Hollywood. What, what is that Hollywood
43:16
Boulevard? Whatever Boulevard is Stars,
43:18
whatever it's called. The the Walk of Fame Walk of
43:21
Fame as she should. Her daughter was there.
43:25
Mark Hamill was there. We'll talk about it.
43:27
We'll talk about her as a human and how princess or Leia Organa
43:32
has really Impacted us, especially now that we've seen
43:35
her in child form and Kenobi. So, it's an all Princess Leia,
43:41
Carrie Fisher. Episode coming up next week.
43:47
Last week as you know, we had an interview with James Arnold
43:50
Taylor but though well not last week two weeks ago because I
43:53
guess we took a week off and then the week before that, we
43:56
talked about our favorite Kenobi moment.
43:59
From the Clone Wars that made us both Fanatics Obi-Wan Fanatics.
44:04
So we asked our listeners. What was your Kenobi defining
44:08
moment from the Clone Wars series and we got a few
44:10
responses here on Spotify. I'll uh, said for me, it was
44:16
definitely the episode. The Lawless the line he says to
44:19
Maul about how he can kill him but never destroy him and like
44:23
how he's just as so destroyed when Satine dies but controls
44:27
yes couldn't agree more so good. It's such a devastating moment
44:32
but it is a Kenobi defining moment.
44:35
It really is, it really is. I mean above and be all beyond
44:40
all that moment right there defines his Derp.
44:44
Yeah, it's amazing. I could never do it.
44:49
I was just crumpled like a dry piece of paper.
44:53
That was me. Yeah, you'd have to come back to
44:55
me after a week or so. And asked me how I felt.
45:00
Okay. Goldie said when he negotiated
45:03
and Christophe christophsis, I can never stop that.
45:08
Fuck that place. Yes.
45:10
How do you say it? I can never pronounce it.
45:12
Christophsis, Christophsis, thank you.
45:16
Bless you in the Clone Wars. Movie that moment changed my
45:21
life forever. Do you remember this Lee Anne?
45:23
When he's like dragging it out and he wants a cup of tea.
45:26
Oh after sleety really slow cup of tea is so fucking like boss.
45:33
It's just the height of like casually stirring.
45:38
It sipping it like, what's the rush?
45:39
And he's just, you know, oh my God.
45:42
And the guys getting more and more or angry watching him just
45:46
fuck around. It's so good.
45:48
I love it. And then light wise said, when
45:52
he pauses and wants to find out how the geonosian mindworms work
45:56
and asked Anakin, whether he thinks they will enter through
45:59
the nose or the mouth. That man is endlessly curious.
46:03
He is though, he went into science mode in the middle of
46:07
like the craziest location and the craziest of circumstances
46:11
and even luminara's, like, can we hurry it up?
46:14
Like, I'm up here? You know?
46:16
Good. That is one of my favorite
46:18
episodes ever. I I'll ever be sewed.
46:22
These are great comments. Thank you all.
46:24
Yes, thanks to everybody who wrote in.
46:26
So, for the question of we just asked, previously you can answer
46:29
directly on Spotify. You don't even have to find us
46:32
on social media if you don't want to, but you can and you can
46:34
email us these, the feedback any find us anywhere.
46:39
Send us messages. It's it works great.
46:44
And thank you so much for joining us here on the most
46:47
things Kenobi podcast. We appreciate every single one
46:50
of our patrons and we've gotten so many new ones since the
46:53
general Taylor interview. We thank you so much for your
46:57
support and really if you want to see the video of us and James
47:02
talking and doing the interview, it is available for our Jedi
47:05
Master tier. So if that interests you head
47:08
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47:12
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47:14
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47:21
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47:24
And if you need just one place to find all of these head, over
47:27
to most things Kenobi.com. So until next time my space to
47:32
win, May the force be with you always.