Latest / 360 with Katie Woolf / Darwin Barrister John Lawrence says the old youth detention centre could have been refurbished and Don Dale closed while the new facility is built

Transcript

Darwin Barrister John Lawrence says the old youth detention centre could have been refurbished and Don Dale closed while the new facility is built · 360 with Katie Woolf

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Now we know that there are renewed calls to close
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: don Dale Youth Detention Center with a rally or an
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: event held at Raintree Park on the weekend, and John
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: Lawrence sc joins me in the studio right now to
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: tell us more about the event on the weekend.
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: Good morning to you, John.
• 0:16
  Speaker 3: Good morning Katie.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: Thanks so much for your time. Now, Measure, I know
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: that there was.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: Quite a few of you there on the weekend, John,
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: What exactly was the event?
• 0:27
  Speaker 3: It was organized by Indigenous grandmothers here Alice Springs, and
• 0:31
  Speaker 3: I think they were similar to in Sydney and Melbourne,
• 0:34
  Speaker 3: and it was basically about addressing the incarceration of juvenile
• 0:39
  Speaker 3: aboriginals here obviously in don Dale, but also elsewhere, so
• 0:43
  Speaker 3: that's what it was. They organized that. There's about half
• 0:45
  Speaker 3: a dozen speakers. It was fairly well attended and they
• 0:49
  Speaker 3: were basically calling on an end to what we continue
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: to do. It's the same request, cry call. None of
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: that's changed. But I suppose the news this week has
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: been On Sunday, I think it was the OPCAT, which
• 1:06
  Speaker 3: is that body from the United Nations who have come
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: to visit or detention centers in jails and that's because
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: we became a signatory to that United Nations Convention in
• 1:18
  Speaker 3: two seventeen. Malcolm Turnbull eventually dragged Australia into becoming a
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: signatory and this was the first visit. And what they
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: have a brief is to go around prisons and detention
• 1:28
  Speaker 3: centers uninvited and they have to be allowed in and
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: they have to be cooperated with so that they can
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: monitor and police and observe the conditions that are in
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: there to make sure that there's no torturing going on
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: or no contradictions to United Nations conventions. They're not a
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: very heavy wielding unit. All they do is observe. If
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: there's things not proper, they report to the federal government
• 1:53
  Speaker 3: who and advise them that you shouldn't have don Dale
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: for instance.
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: And so have I done that in down now yet?
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: Well they've visited don Dale. But what's happened is they've
• 2:04
  Speaker 3: pulled the plug, they've abandoned ship. They've after five or
• 2:08
  Speaker 3: six days, they've said because of the lack of cooperation
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: and difficulties encountered by the various correction bodies in each
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: some of the states, particularly Queensland and New South Wales,
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: but general difficulties, but we don't know what they are.
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: They've said there's not much point in us continuing on
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: this and we're just going to go. So it's a
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: horrible look for Australia as an international body because the
• 2:32
  Speaker 3: United Nations have basically said that the reception we've received
• 2:39
  Speaker 3: as we try to do this has been so poor.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: So now, John, I know that you know, like you said,
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: the calls still closed on Dale aren't new, but a
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: lot of people are going to be thinking if we're
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: not going to be if we're not going to have
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: kids going into Dondelle who have offended and done some
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: pretty bad stuff, where should they go?
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: What should happen in the main top?
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: Well, I mean that's the perennial question, isn't it. When
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: you ask that children shouldn't be kept in a dump
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: like don Dale, A lot of people say, well, where
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: are they're going to go? Where are they going to go? Well,
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: I mean my answer to that is they simply if
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: they have to be detained, say they've committed a serious
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: crime and have been sentenced. Remember seventy percent of these
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: kids are on remand they haven't actually been sentenced. They're
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: just sitting waiting to be dealt with by a court
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: system that's not efficient enough for it. But they if
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: they've committed a serious crime, like a serious assault or
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: maybe even a sexual assault that that can occur and
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: detention is an appropriate option, then they should be placed
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: in a youth detention center that is appropriate and custom
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: built for that. They have them all over the world.
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: They've had them for fifty sixty years. I mean they
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: used to be called Borstal when I was a kid,
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: and they were pretty tough, but they weren't don Dale.
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: They had relitation components, they had sport and wreck, they
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: had discipline, they had all that kind of structure and
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: qualified people. So and that could literally have happened here.
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: Remember these kids have been in this prison now for
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: over five years, in fact seven. That could have happened
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: within six months if the government had said right. Revamped
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: on Dale, the original which sits five hundred meters down
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: the road from Beerma. It was purpose built for kids.
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: It has twenty four rooms, no sales, it has classrooms,
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: it has a gem revamp it, spend money, extend it
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: if need be. There's twenty four rooms. That could have happened,
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: But our government have steadfastly refused to do that kind
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: of thing.
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: And so they're building a new one. Though they are
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: building a new facility. What are they telling you, or
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: they're probably not telling you, but how soon are we
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: expecting it to open?
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: Well, they're telling the community for what it's worth. What
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: they say that it's going to be finished next year.
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: Our received correspond and saying October next year hopefully, which
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: to me means twenty twenty four, so you know. And
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: plus they're building it adjacent to the adult prison, which
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: is contra to the Royal Commission's recommendation direct and they're
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: saying it's shangri la. You know, it's just going to
• 5:18
  Speaker 3: be the best thing in the world. It's going to
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: be Holland, Canada, Scandinavia, and you know, the whole thing.
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: I don't believe a word of it. I do not
• 5:26
  Speaker 3: believe a word of it because as student Parliament Hall,
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: when the Royal Commission published its report, Michael Ganner, the
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: then Chief Minister, got up there and said in twenty seventeen,
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: as far as I'm concerned, my greatest priority is the
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: Chief Minister of the Territory, is to ensure that none
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: of this stuff ever happens again. That was seven years ago,
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: and the same thing has been going on and on
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: and on and on and on. Now. I don't know
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: how other people in the community feel about what politicians say,
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: but you know, I think we live in a period now,
• 5:56
  Speaker 3: surely to God, where we realize that whether you Boris Johnson,
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: Donald Trump, Scott Morrison, make or Gunner, you cannot take
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: anything that a politician assauts has been born a fades
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: or even remotely truthful. So I don't believe any of.
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: It, John, I know, though, there's gonna like honestly, and
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: we say this every time. I say this to you,
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: every time you come on the show, and I appreciate
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: that you continue to come on the show, but there
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: will be so many people listening this morning who are
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: sort of thinking to themselves, Look, I've heard this before.
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: I have heard the calls for don Dale to close.
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: But unfortunately I continue to suffer from you said of
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: breaking the law, either breaking into my home. You know.
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: Even on the weekend, there was an older woman who
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: was assaulted by two teenagers, allegedly knocked to the ground
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: and had a wrist broken at a shopping center in Casarina.
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: So there is going to be people listening that are
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: that are just thinking to themselves, well, what are the alternatives?
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: Well they're frustrated, yes, and they're angry and they're scared,
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: and you sound like a broken record, and I seem
• 7:00
  Speaker 3: like a broken record because what I'm going to see
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: is the brooken record, which is that's all bad and
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: it has to be reduced. They will never be stopped,
• 7:09
  Speaker 3: but it has to be reduced, and it can be reduced.
• 7:11
  Speaker 3: But what we're doing now is guaranteeing that those cremes
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: will continue, if not increase. By putting children that are
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: delinquent to use an all face in town in Dondale
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: without any rehab and treating them like absolute garbage, you're
• 7:28
  Speaker 3: just going to guarantee, without a shadow of a date,
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: that when they come out, they're going to continue. Crame
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: teleticians know that.
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: Can you paint a picture for us because a lot
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: of us have never been into don Dale, right, A
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: lot of us have no idea you know, what programs
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: might be operating or what might not be operating. So
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: I know, for me, I think, well, look, if a
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: child goes into don Dale, if a youth goes in there,
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: I expect that there is going to be rehabilitation programs
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: for them to undertake, because that's the whole aim that
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: you know, they then come out better people, not better offenders.
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: Are they undertaking rehab programs from your perspective that are
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: going to help them?
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: Virtually none and far less than they used to be
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: ten twenty years ago. We have deteriorated, and you know,
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: you know what should happen, really and be interested to
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: see what you think you should be allowed in there.
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: You changed to.
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: Absolutely you speak for the people. You inform and advise
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: the people on what's going down. And there's no good
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: reason I can see why the media shouldn't be a
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: given access like OPCAT were given access so that you
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: can come back and say, well, I've actually been in
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: there and I can tell you what's going down now.
• 8:37
  Speaker 3: I've been in there. I've been in there hundreds of times.
• 8:40
  Speaker 3: I went there when it was an adult jail and
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: it was pretty ghastly. And what's more, I went in
• 8:46
  Speaker 3: I've been in the B block, which was the maximum
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: security section when it was the adult prison. Now you
• 8:51
  Speaker 3: had to go in there to visit your client because
• 8:53
  Speaker 3: they weren't allowed out into the visiting yard because they
• 8:55
  Speaker 3: were so dangerous, or they needed protection because they were
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: convicted pedophiles. So I used to go into B Block
• 9:02
  Speaker 3: and visit them in their cells or in their adjacent area.
• 9:05
  Speaker 3: And it's horrible. It's I mean, it's actually imagine in
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: a Victorian sense. It's steel, it's keys, it's bangs, it shouts,
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: it's concrete. It's like a ghost trading times ten. You know,
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: it's a really horror show. And to place children who
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: we know are already cognitively impaired. Because most of these kids,
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: the reason that the real explanation why they're carrying on
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: and committing crimes is they've ran away from home because
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: homes a war zone, and they've been subjected and they've
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: been exposed to watching violence and trauma and drug abuse
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: and alcohol abuse, and so the behavior is affected accordingly.
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: So you know, they're completely affected and bruised. So the
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: last thing anybody would ever dream of doing to a
• 9:48
  Speaker 3: twelve year old that's in a condition such as that,
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: it's put them in don Dale because you know for
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: a fact that it's going to make the kid's condition
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: and his behavior worse. We're digging our own grieve and
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: that's again a message I'd like to send to the
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: victims of crime who are jacked off with all these
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: kids running a muck and nothing ever seeming to fix it. Well,
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: all I'm seeing is I can sympathize. I mean, we've
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: all been touched by it to a degree, but what
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: the government continues to do is going to make it worse.
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: Exest, this is where we're at it.
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: I reckon at the moment where people are, to put
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: it really bluntly, they're so pisced off with the issues
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: that we're seeing. You know, every day I'm seeing information
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: come through from the police about different crimes that are
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: being committed.
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: By young people.
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: A lot of the time, we've got listeners calling in,
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: going Katie, where are their parents or where are their families?
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: Why are they not rallying around them to.
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: Get them off the streets or stop them engaging in
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: this kind of behavior.
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: But then you know, we're hearing from.
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: The government all right, well, we want to actually have
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: different programs in place so kids can rehabilitate, but we're
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: not really seeing or finding out more about what those
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: programs are. So I think the message that's getting through
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: really clear to me. Is people have not only had enough,
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: but they're feeling as though nothing's changing in any way.
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: And it's getting worse. It's getting worse, I mean, and
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: it's going to get worse if you keep kids in
• 11:10
  Speaker 3: conditions like that.
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: So what are the alternatives there?
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: John? You know, I suppose That's what I'm getting to with,
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: you know, from for our listeners, is what do you
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: reckon the alternatives are? Because even the week or so
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: ago when they said we're raising the criminal age of
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: responsibility and we're going to implement these different programs, but
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: there didn't seem to be a lot of evidence or
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: a lot of discussion about what those programs actually are.
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: I think the first alternative has to be that we
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: have to look at this honestly, we have to talk
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: truth because this is a really holistic issue. I was
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: listening earlier to the domestic violence issue, and that's a monster.
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: I mean, that's a horror show and it's probably the
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: biggest disaster in Australia our society at the moment is
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: the danger that women are in and it's getting worse
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: and worse and worse. And you know, with the grace
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: of respect to the Don House and all that, which
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: are you know, short term heroic measures to deal with
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: or try and help women and deal with men as well.
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: We've got to look at this in the big picture.
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: This is out of control and it's similar to juvenile
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: crime here. I mean, we can't just say we're going
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: to put a program in the new don Dale because
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: the kids are going to go in there for a
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: month and you know they're going to come out again.
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: So we're kidding ourselves on to just use these words.
• 12:34
  Speaker 3: We definitely have a problem and one of the explanations
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: for it is that all of these kids, and they're
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: all Indigenous, most of them are Indigenous, and many of
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: them and Darwin at least, come from that stream of
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: stolen generation antecedents, which include you know, suffering from post
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: trauma from generation to generation. We've got to look at
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: it in a holistic way and realize that, you know,
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: what we've been doing today doesn't work. That's all I'm saying.
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: Right There isn't a pill here that fixed this. But
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: if we could only be honest about it and stop
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: just listening to the newspapers the radio, I mean.
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: You know, listening to me, John, I don't think so.
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: No, no, now, listen, listen. Let me just give you
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: an example of how the media can be a bit
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: a bit dangerous here. This has been going on for
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: thirty years. It's called the law and order debate or
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: tough on crime. You know what I'm talking about now.
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: I went to see the anti news journalist Craig Dunlop,
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: who used to work up here.
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: All right, we better be I just need to make
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: sure that we're okful. We are running out of time
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: as well.
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: John, all right, well, he gave evidence that the Parliamentary
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: Committee on Youth Crime and he said that journalists learn
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: on day two of school that the public like negative stories,
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: not positive stories.
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: Okay, well, I can't speak for him, but I know,
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: like for me, what we like, Well, what we talk
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: about is basically what impact listeners.
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, but this is a self perpetuating thing.
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: So what do you think that we shouldn't report on it?
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: Of course not, of course you must report on it.
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: But there is a relationship between the media and politicians
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: which self perpetuates itself. The politicians listening to the media.
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: The media say crimes out of control. The politician says,
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: I'll cure it. Vote for me, and this has been
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: going on forever and ever, and it's definitely the case that.
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: Look at the NT news story the other day where
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: I have to read this out, so it's going to
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: be short. That the author is Riley Walter, an NT journalist,
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: and he talks about a guy that got sentenced to
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: eighteen three years imprisonment suspended after eighteen months. But he
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: describes it like this, a man of the serious history
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: of violent offending who knocked a stranger out, had more
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: than half of his prison terms suspended. And the headline
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: is sentence slashed, and then he goes on to tell
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: us that he's going to be out of here six
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: months right now. The actual sentence was three years imprisonment backdated.
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: You've already said over twelve months. You'll be released in
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: eighteen months. But the newspaper deliberately gives the impression to
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: the reader that once again, here we go blooks getting
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: chocolate biscuits for doing very serious cream. Now that's deliberate.
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: There's no in main. Mate.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: I'm obviously not the journalist, so I can't, you know,
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: I can't determine how they've chosen to run a story
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: or how they've not but what I can say is
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: I know that you know, for us here on the radio.
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: Station, we're actually like we every day.
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: We're getting phone calls from people who are the victims
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: of crime. So it's pretty hard to ignore. It's pretty
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: hard to ignore that people are hurting. It's pretty hard
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: to ignore. You know, we had locked cars being stolen,
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: businesses being ram rated, people being assaulted by youths in
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: you know, in the city.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: We'd heard about that last week.
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: It's hard for us to ignore that and get you know,
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: I get the argument that you're making that obviously those
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: negative stories sell, but it's also stuff that's happening to
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: people every single day.
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: It is happening. But we're not in the Ukraine. And
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: you know, if an objective person came into this community
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: and read what's in the newspapers and listen, they might
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: think they're in Libya and it really you know, some.
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: Of those businesses might feel like they are going through
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: it pretty bad.
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: Well I'm sure they do feel that they are going
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: through it pretty bad. But the point I'm trying to
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: make is that this cycle has been going on for
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: twenty years, and all it's led to is a punitive
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: approach which has not worked. Now, what I would like
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: the media to consider is changing the direction, changing the approach,
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: looking at what is causing it historically, and thinking about
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: how it can be fixed. Because we have to plead
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: guilty to the fact that what we have been doing
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: today is only making this worse. Therefore we must change.
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: Well, John, we are going to have to wrap up.
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: We've got to go across to the eleven o'clock National
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: News for a couple of minutes late.
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: I appreciate your time this morning. I know that some.
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: People fire up a lot after you've been on the show,
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: but look, I think that we've got to look at
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: things a little bit differently.
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: So I appreciate you having a chat with me this morning.
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: You too,