Latest / Dear Chelsea / Family Secrets with Therapist Nedra Tawwab

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Family Secrets with Therapist Nedra Tawwab · Dear Chelsea

0:00
Speaker 1: Hi.
0:01
Speaker 2: Hello. This is Chelsea Handler Joy, Chelsea Joy, Chelsea Joy Handler.
0:05
Speaker 3: Hello, this is Catherine Elizabeth Lah. How are you.
0:07
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm good. I'm just sitting here in my bedroom
0:10
Speaker 2: with my big black lover, Doug, and he is so cute.
0:14
Speaker 4: Now.
0:14
Speaker 2: I came home. I was gone for two weeks. I
0:17
Speaker 2: went to my worka and I came home and he
0:20
Speaker 2: has this new thing where he just jumps on you
0:23
Speaker 2: and then puts your hand in his mouth with a
0:25
Speaker 2: light and he's not really biting, but he's trying to
0:27
Speaker 2: drag you. And I'm like, you better cut that fucking
0:30
Speaker 2: shit out, buddy, because people are not going to respond
0:32
Speaker 2: well to they I'm doing that. People who don't like
0:34
Speaker 2: dogs are gonna be scared, right, Doug, make sure Mobell
0:37
Speaker 2: tregged him to do that.
0:38
Speaker 5: While in my absence, she's like, fol of Shenanigan's that Mabel.
0:42
Speaker 1: Of course.
0:43
Speaker 2: Of course. I was just listening to Alex Cooper's interview
0:46
Speaker 2: with Kamala Harris on My Jove in. I was so
0:51
Speaker 2: so blown away that she got that interview. I texted
0:54
Speaker 2: her right away. I was like, holy shit, So that's awesome,
0:57
Speaker 2: that's amazing. I love to see that.
1:00
Speaker 5: Yeah, I also like to see candidates being real and
1:03
Speaker 5: normal in the modern world, like doing something like a podcast.
1:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, exactly. I like when they just act like
1:09
Speaker 2: normal people, Like you don't have to always be spouting Paul,
1:13
Speaker 2: like you're a human being. I want to see the
1:14
Speaker 2: human humanity in everyone you know and be like, Okay,
1:18
Speaker 2: but anyway, I've been spending a lot of time in
1:20
Speaker 2: my hyperbaric chamber because I'm a home for two weeks
1:22
Speaker 2: and I figure I might as well regenerate and rejuvenate.
1:26
Speaker 2: Or somebody told me the other day that my skin
1:27
Speaker 2: looked incredible, and I was like, you know what, thanks
1:30
Speaker 2: for that hot tip. I'm going to keep going. I'm like,
1:32
Speaker 2: it must be the hyperbaric chamber.
1:33
Speaker 5: So I was like sleeping like a vampire in your tube,
1:36
Speaker 5: among all the other things that I do to myself.
1:40
Speaker 3: Are you reading anything exciting right now?
1:42
Speaker 2: I did. I just read a great book. I think
1:45
Speaker 2: I don't know that it's out yet, because my editor
1:48
Speaker 2: sent it to me. It's called Like Mother, Like Mother
1:50
Speaker 2: by Susan Rieger. I read that. I read Cutting for
1:54
Speaker 2: Stone Over the Break. That is long and laborious, and
1:58
Speaker 2: I would not recommend that unless you're into you because
2:01
Speaker 2: he's the one who wrote the Covenant of Water Abraham
2:04
Speaker 2: fa Yes, yeah, I did just reread Many Lives, Many Masters,
2:09
Speaker 2: because it's come up so many times on the podcast.
2:11
Speaker 2: I did much. I just reread that and then I
2:15
Speaker 2: gave it to my aunt because she could use a
2:16
Speaker 2: little spirituality booster. I gave that to her with her
2:19
Speaker 2: well bucher and that I dropped off at her house
2:21
Speaker 2: the other day. I said, start taking one of these
2:24
Speaker 2: a day every day. Please. She's like, you know, I'm
2:26
Speaker 2: not unhappy. I'm like, no, no, no one's saying you're unhappy.
2:29
Speaker 2: You just need a little bit of a moodlifter. I'm like,
2:31
Speaker 2: it's just so that you're a little bit more optimistic. Yes,
2:34
Speaker 2: And she's like, I am optimistic, but I'm also realistic.
2:38
Speaker 2: And I'm dying. I'm like, you're not dying, you're just old.
2:41
Speaker 2: We're all dying. That's my dad.
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Speaker 5: He's like ever since he turned I mean, I don't know,
2:44
Speaker 5: probably thirty, but like literally every year he's like, I
2:46
Speaker 5: probably won't make it five more years.
2:48
Speaker 3: I'll probably die by the time i'm fifty.
2:50
Speaker 2: Why do people say things like that. I so either
2:53
Speaker 2: read or listened or someone told me that if we
2:57
Speaker 2: make it through the next ten to fifteen years, we're
3:00
Speaker 2: going to be able to live until we're one hundred
3:02
Speaker 2: and twenty. I'm like, no, thank you. First of all,
3:05
Speaker 2: I can't afford to live until I'm one hundred and twenty. Okay,
3:07
Speaker 2: I don't have that kind of money. You want to
3:09
Speaker 2: retire someday? Who the fuck wants to do that to
3:13
Speaker 2: one hundred and twenty.
3:15
Speaker 3: I mean, have you seen old people? It's hard to
3:17
Speaker 3: get around.
3:18
Speaker 2: Oh please, Well, apparently there's gonna have that. We're gonna
3:20
Speaker 2: be all these things to help us keep us young.
3:22
Speaker 2: But it's like I'm gonna spend most of my time
3:23
Speaker 2: in a fucking hyperbaric chamber. I already feel like crazy
3:26
Speaker 2: like a fox. Oh by the way, there are still
3:28
Speaker 2: tickets for Kansas City, Saint Louis, and Indianapolis that are
3:32
Speaker 2: coming up at the end of October October twenty fifth, sixth,
3:35
Speaker 2: and seventh. Anyway, we have a serious guest today. We
3:38
Speaker 2: have the professional today on the show No funny Stuff.
3:42
Speaker 2: This was a recommendation from my friend Yanica. So please
3:46
Speaker 2: welcome Nedra to wob Welcome Nedra to WAB Thank you
3:50
Speaker 2: so much for being here today.
3:52
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me.
3:54
Speaker 2: I have lots of questions for you. I follow you
3:56
Speaker 2: on Instagram. A lot of my friends also follow you
3:59
Speaker 2: on Instagram, so I'm not sure who turned who on
4:01
Speaker 2: to you. But I read your book Drama Free, and
4:05
Speaker 2: I've sent it to a lot of people anonymously, just
4:09
Speaker 2: so you know. I like to just send books to
4:11
Speaker 2: people without them knowing exactly where it came from. But
4:14
Speaker 2: there's a couple of things in your book that I
4:15
Speaker 2: want to touch on right away. First of all, your
4:18
Speaker 2: licensed therapist, so you have a lot of experience right
4:21
Speaker 2: with dealing with different people, different kind of dynamics and relationships.
4:26
Speaker 2: What I found very interesting, I had never really understood
4:30
Speaker 2: the term enmeshment before, and I was interested in you
4:35
Speaker 2: kind of delineating the difference between codependency and enmeshment because
4:42
Speaker 2: some of the examples in the book that you used
4:44
Speaker 2: for in meshment sounded to me like codependency. So I
4:48
Speaker 2: want to be better at knowing what the real differentiation is.
4:52
Speaker 1: Oh, that's a good one.
4:54
Speaker 6: When I think of codependency, I think of us trying
4:58
Speaker 6: to enable some unhealthy behavior, and a person trying to
5:02
Speaker 6: rescue them from some sort of outcome, trying to manage
5:07
Speaker 6: things in.
5:08
Speaker 1: Their lives so they will be better.
5:10
Speaker 6: When I think of, you know, this enmeshment that we
5:14
Speaker 6: have in our relationships, people can be very healthy in
5:17
Speaker 6: their own life and very enmeshed at the same time.
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Speaker 6: It's that couple that doesn't have any outside friends. It's
5:25
Speaker 6: the siblings who won't let anybody else in. Nobody has
5:28
Speaker 6: a drug addiction, nobody needs saving from anything. But there
5:33
Speaker 6: is no outside influence. It's just us. And so the
5:37
Speaker 6: enmeshment is really like we have no boundaries because we
5:41
Speaker 6: have nothing else besides what's in this situation.
5:45
Speaker 2: So would you say it's like a little bit like isolation,
5:48
Speaker 2: like isolating someone.
5:50
Speaker 1: Well, it could be isolating a lot of people.
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Speaker 6: I think you know you brought up Drama Free, which
5:55
Speaker 6: is about dysfunctional family relationships, and one of the things
5:59
Speaker 6: that happens in dysfunctional families is there is this immeshment around.
6:06
Speaker 6: We are the only people who can love us, right
6:10
Speaker 6: Like everybody else is an outsider, a friend, a teacher,
6:15
Speaker 6: everyone is an outsider. It's only us. And it doesn't
6:18
Speaker 6: mean that those people aren't healthy. For you, but it
6:22
Speaker 6: certainly breaks up that dynamic and can point out some
6:25
Speaker 6: of those things that are a bit dysfunctional, and so
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Speaker 6: for the dysfunctional system to sort of continue, we have
6:32
Speaker 6: to be enmesh.
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Speaker 2: Okay, because one of the examples you use for enmeshment,
6:35
Speaker 2: I think if I recall, it was about like getting
6:38
Speaker 2: accepted to a college that was far away from home,
6:41
Speaker 2: and your family desiring for you to go to college
6:43
Speaker 2: close to home, and you choosing to go out of state, say,
6:47
Speaker 2: and then having there'd be a consequence within your family
6:51
Speaker 2: about that, like how dare you go so far away
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Speaker 2: from us? You're supposed to stay close. So that's a
6:56
Speaker 2: good example of enmeshment.
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Speaker 6: Absolutely, when we are unable to get away from something,
7:02
Speaker 6: even if we're going to this healthier thing, even if
7:04
Speaker 6: our family has taken really great care of us, they
7:07
Speaker 6: don't want us to leave. It's very healthy for people
7:12
Speaker 6: around a certain age to leave the nest. And if
7:16
Speaker 6: you're not allowed to do that, that can be problematic
7:20
Speaker 6: for you. If you're not allowed to raise your children
7:24
Speaker 6: a little differently than how you were raised, if you're
7:27
Speaker 6: not allowed to have friends outside of the family, if
7:31
Speaker 6: you're not allowed to go on vacation with people who
7:35
Speaker 6: are other than family. Those things are problematic.
7:38
Speaker 2: That very much sounds to me like an instance of
7:41
Speaker 2: a man controlling a woman, say in a relationship where
7:43
Speaker 2: they isolate them, right, and they don't want them to
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Speaker 2: have any friends, They don't want them to do anything
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Speaker 2: unless it's been approved. That kind of abuse, that kind
7:51
Speaker 2: of situation that most typically leads to abuse control.
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Speaker 6: Right, Yes, so it typically is a control tactic because
8:02
Speaker 6: the people we love, we want other people to love
8:05
Speaker 6: them as well. And if I am saying to you
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Speaker 6: I am the only person who can love you, or
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Speaker 6: we are the only people who can love you, I
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Speaker 6: will pick the people that's not good for your sense
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Speaker 6: of autonomy, like you don't get to you know, be
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Speaker 6: at work. It maybe pick some people who are good
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Speaker 6: for you because they've already been picked. And so if
8:24
Speaker 6: I am saying I am the barrier for entry of
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Speaker 6: anyone else, yes, I'm trying to control your life in
8:30
Speaker 6: some sort of way.
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Speaker 2: Okay, let's talk about counter dependency versus codependency. So would
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Speaker 2: you say that counter dependency is basically the opposite of codependency.
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Speaker 6: Well, yes, counter dependency is the isolation of people as supports,
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Speaker 6: as confidantes, as emotional companions. People who are counter dependent,
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Speaker 6: they tend to function pretty well in life. They have
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Speaker 6: this very strong exterior. They have a mantra of I
9:01
Speaker 6: don't need anyone to really do it yourselfers they believe
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Speaker 6: in this philosophy of being self made, and they have
9:10
Speaker 6: a high ability to feel very lonely because we need
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Speaker 6: people in the world. When you are of the mindset
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Speaker 6: that people have harmed you and the safest thing to
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Speaker 6: do is stay away from people, it causes this isolation
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Speaker 6: of I am the only one with me, so even
9:30
Speaker 6: if I can do it all, I still feel bad
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Speaker 6: about having to do it all, even if I'm pushing
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Speaker 6: people away. So sometimes, you know, we'll see this in
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Speaker 6: dating as the person everything is going really well, it
9:44
Speaker 6: seems like it's a you know, really great relationship, and
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Speaker 6: then it's supposed to maybe go to the next step,
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Speaker 6: and they start to push you away because there's too
9:52
Speaker 6: much closeness, there's too much vulnerability. So you see that
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Speaker 6: a lot with folks who are counterdependent, or and you
10:00
Speaker 6: may see them carrying a heavy load and they are
10:03
Speaker 6: unable to allow you to help them. Sometimes with our
10:07
Speaker 6: family members. This is the person who we don't see
10:10
Speaker 6: very often, the person who may not call us, the
10:14
Speaker 6: person who keeps to themselves, but they function pretty well
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Speaker 6: in life, but they are very isolated from everyone else.
10:21
Speaker 2: And is there a way to be counterdependent? Because my
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Speaker 2: sister and I were talking about this term over the
10:25
Speaker 2: weekend and we were saying how we were both we
10:27
Speaker 2: both became counterdependent because our parents were so well useless
10:31
Speaker 2: pretty much. I mean they were around, but they weren't
10:33
Speaker 2: really doing anything. And so we were like, oh, we're
10:35
Speaker 2: both but we weren't. We're both very much involved in
10:39
Speaker 2: our family. We're not isolated from our family. So how
10:44
Speaker 2: does that fit in? Like, if you're somebody who's very
10:46
Speaker 2: self sufficient, like I always feel like that. I'm like, oh,
10:49
Speaker 2: I'm all on my own. I've got to do everything
10:50
Speaker 2: on my own. But I've become quite used to that
10:53
Speaker 2: because that's how I grew up, Like I had to
10:56
Speaker 2: be self sufficient, but I'm not isolated from the rest
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Speaker 2: of the family.
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Speaker 1: Well, how do you invite people in?
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Speaker 2: I've always have people around.
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Speaker 1: But how do you invite people in emotionally?
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Speaker 6: Because there's a difference between having people around and being
11:11
Speaker 6: around people and being able to show up in that
11:13
Speaker 6: space and allowing people to be there for you, allowing
11:17
Speaker 6: people to support you when you're going through something, not
11:21
Speaker 6: you always being the supporter, but really letting people in,
11:25
Speaker 6: letting them know what's going on. So you can have
11:28
Speaker 6: relationships and still not be evotionally available in those relationships.
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Speaker 6: So I would wonder if a person is counterdependent, how
11:36
Speaker 6: are you being vulnerable or not?
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Speaker 2: So coundre dependent would mean that you're not that you
11:41
Speaker 2: are being invulnerable or can you be counterdependent and be vulnerable?
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Speaker 6: Counterdependent and vulnerable with a small few, with a small few.
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Speaker 6: Sometimes I'm just gonna live into that category.
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Speaker 3: I think that's true.
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Speaker 6: Yeah, with a small few, because what I've seen with
12:01
Speaker 6: that is people who are vulnerable with a small few
12:05
Speaker 6: is it is very small. I mean it's not enough
12:08
Speaker 6: to even have a party with. It's really like I
12:14
Speaker 6: have two people, and if something happens to these two people,
12:17
Speaker 6: I don't have anyone else. There's no inviting in, there's
12:20
Speaker 6: no more opening up because you know, again, somewhere along
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Speaker 6: the way, like you said, like you know, my parents
12:26
Speaker 6: were useless, So I grew accustomed to doing things on
12:30
Speaker 6: my own because I know I can do them. Well,
12:32
Speaker 6: I know things will be done, and I have not
12:36
Speaker 6: developed that trust for other people to do them. Now
12:39
Speaker 6: I can talk to people about my problems, but I
12:42
Speaker 6: don't really want people to get in there and resolve
12:44
Speaker 6: my problems for me. So I think there is some
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Speaker 6: variation of how we're vulnerable with others as well. Sometimes
12:54
Speaker 6: with counterdependency, people are very vulnerable after the fact. They
13:00
Speaker 6: they talk about things as they have already resolved those things,
13:03
Speaker 6: and not necessarily maybe as they're going through those things.
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Speaker 2: Okay, let's talk about the term. Is it alexathemia. That
13:12
Speaker 2: was a word I had to look up that I've
13:14
Speaker 2: learned in your book, So thank you. I love learning
13:16
Speaker 2: new words. So tell us what that means.
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Speaker 6: Alexithymia is where we have like this emotional restriction. We're
13:27
Speaker 6: not aware of what we feel. We almost can't tap
13:30
Speaker 6: into our emotions. Sometimes this will show up in people
13:34
Speaker 6: saying things like I don't cry, or I don't get
13:38
Speaker 6: upset about stuff, or I don't get very angry. Well,
13:42
Speaker 6: emotions are very helpful for us. Now how we express
13:46
Speaker 6: those emotions it matters. You can be angry, but do
13:49
Speaker 6: we want you to be angry and get out of
13:51
Speaker 6: your car and yell at a driver. No, we don't
13:52
Speaker 6: want that, but it is okay to have some level
13:56
Speaker 6: of a feeling in your body. Ultimately, you know, people
14:01
Speaker 6: have to be able to identify what their feeling is.
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Speaker 6: And with alexithymia, I think we see a lot of
14:07
Speaker 6: folks who don't even know what they feel. It's like,
14:10
Speaker 6: I don't know what I feel. I'm often confused about
14:13
Speaker 6: what my feeling is about this thing, or they're pocketing
14:17
Speaker 6: everything into you know, maybe two feelings. I'm angry or
14:21
Speaker 6: I'm sad. Well, let's talk about this whole wheel of
14:25
Speaker 6: other things.
14:25
Speaker 1: You might feel.
14:26
Speaker 6: You might feel disappointed, you might feel confused, you might
14:30
Speaker 6: feel lonely. So being able to communicate your feelings, especially,
14:36
Speaker 6: you know, going back to counterdependency, a lot of counterdependent
14:40
Speaker 6: folks really struggle with being able to identify what they're feeling,
14:45
Speaker 6: and so it can be challenging in your relationships with
14:48
Speaker 6: people if you can't even show feeling and then be
14:52
Speaker 6: able to recognize those feelings and other people and respond
14:56
Speaker 6: to it because you don't have them. You're like, I
14:59
Speaker 6: don't even understand why they're upset about this thing because
15:02
Speaker 6: that wouldn't upset me. Well, we have to be able
15:06
Speaker 6: to show up for people in relationships. We have to
15:09
Speaker 6: be able to acknowledge what we're feeling. And you know,
15:13
Speaker 6: as a therapist, we use things like feelings charts and
15:18
Speaker 6: you know, mood trackers to kind of help you distinguish
15:21
Speaker 6: between a happy moment, of exciting moment, a sad moment,
15:27
Speaker 6: of this moment of that moment, because most people will
15:30
Speaker 6: give you like two things, but once you break it down,
15:32
Speaker 6: it can be hopeful to know that, actually I was
15:36
Speaker 6: enraged when I did that. That was a step beyond anger.
15:40
Speaker 6: When I responded in that way, I was actually very hurt.
15:44
Speaker 6: I wasn't angry. Those can be very hopeful tools for
15:47
Speaker 6: you to be able to communicate with others and certainly
15:51
Speaker 6: to manage your behaviors.
15:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, you talk about that a little bit with a
15:55
Speaker 2: couple that like, this woman was just frustrated with her
15:57
Speaker 2: husband and not he wasn't able.
15:59
Speaker 1: She was.
15:59
Speaker 2: She was ready to leave him, and he wanted to
16:01
Speaker 2: maintain the relationship and stay in the marriage. Yet he
16:04
Speaker 2: didn't know how to He didn't know how to communicate
16:07
Speaker 2: or what the problem was because he had grown up
16:09
Speaker 2: with a family of you know, parents who were divorced
16:12
Speaker 2: or had an unhealthy dynamic, and so he didn't know
16:14
Speaker 2: how to express his emotions. And when someone is that stuck,
16:18
Speaker 2: and you talk about this also like having patients that
16:20
Speaker 2: aren't ready to make changes, you know, sometimes there's like
16:23
Speaker 2: a phase of there are several phases of going to
16:25
Speaker 2: therapy where you're curious enough to think that there is
16:28
Speaker 2: a problem. Then you go and you start talking to somebody.
16:30
Speaker 2: But I know from experience, my own therapy experience, that
16:33
Speaker 2: it is there's a phases to when you're willing to
16:36
Speaker 2: accept and learn more about yourself and actually gain self
16:40
Speaker 2: awareness about your behavior. But when someone is so stuck
16:45
Speaker 2: and is emotionally unavailable and emotionally almost uneducated, right, they
16:51
Speaker 2: have an inability to express themselves, where do you begin?
16:55
Speaker 2: How do you salvage a marriage if somebody is that
16:58
Speaker 2: far removed from their own emotions.
17:01
Speaker 6: Well, if that person is in therapy, I think a
17:03
Speaker 6: therapist would point out their feelings for them. There have
17:07
Speaker 6: been times where I say, you know, you sound very
17:10
Speaker 6: sad about your partner wanting to leave the relationship without
17:15
Speaker 6: that person being able to identify, Oh my gosh, I'm sad.
17:18
Speaker 6: I'm like, is this accurate or am I far off right?
17:22
Speaker 6: And then we'll talk about what that feeling looks like.
17:26
Speaker 6: But if that person is not in therapy, I think
17:29
Speaker 6: sometimes when we're in relationships with people, it can be
17:33
Speaker 6: really challenging to push them to the point of change
17:37
Speaker 6: because people have to want that, and there are you know,
17:40
Speaker 6: there are people who grow an age who you know,
17:44
Speaker 6: never change because it's it's so uncomfortable. It can be
17:48
Speaker 6: so uncomfortable to move away from this idea that I
17:52
Speaker 6: have to manage everything or I have to keep things
17:54
Speaker 6: really private to I'm going to be an open book
17:58
Speaker 6: with someone. For some people, they would rather that marriage
18:03
Speaker 6: in than to risk being vulnerable in that relationship, because
18:07
Speaker 6: that's way scarier. I have had some clients where it
18:11
Speaker 6: has taken you know, maybe years maybe for them to
18:14
Speaker 6: get to this point of being able to quickly recognize
18:18
Speaker 6: what they feel and act on it. Particularly in marriages.
18:23
Speaker 6: You know, a lot of marriages. You know, we kind
18:26
Speaker 6: of talk about infidelity, We talk about, you know, how
18:29
Speaker 6: you communicate when people have kids. That's a really troubling
18:33
Speaker 6: spot as well.
18:34
Speaker 2: I want to talk about this section of your Brook.
18:36
Speaker 2: I took a screen grab because I found this it
18:38
Speaker 2: resonated for a lot of situations that I've seen before
18:42
Speaker 2: signs of emotionally immature parents. So there's a list of
18:46
Speaker 2: One of the first thing says you feel lonely when
18:48
Speaker 2: you're with them, which is so sad. The relationship is
18:51
Speaker 2: one sided. They dismiss or minimize your emotions. They demand compliance,
18:56
Speaker 2: and they don't respect boundaries. Also, they make their problems
19:00
Speaker 2: seem more significant than yours, and they are unable to
19:03
Speaker 2: hold space for your feelings or problems. So it sounds
19:08
Speaker 2: that sounds also very narcissistic. Is there a correlation between
19:13
Speaker 2: being like an immature parent because all of these things
19:16
Speaker 2: are also signs they think of narcissism.
19:18
Speaker 6: No, they could be, but I think a narcissis is
19:23
Speaker 6: a little more strategic. I think an emotionally unavailable parent
19:30
Speaker 6: is maybe a little more aloof because there can be
19:35
Speaker 6: love there, like the parent can love.
19:37
Speaker 1: You, but just not have those tools to really show
19:40
Speaker 1: up in a way.
19:41
Speaker 6: Even if you tell them like the application of these things,
19:47
Speaker 6: they can't quite grasp it. So I would say what
19:50
Speaker 6: a narcissist is a little more strategic. They really don't
19:54
Speaker 6: have a desire to change. They are certainly manipulating a
19:58
Speaker 6: situation with an emotionally immature parent. There just may be
20:03
Speaker 6: a lack of understanding. Certainly they don't have a grasp
20:08
Speaker 6: on their mental health. And I think that if a
20:13
Speaker 6: narcissist or emotionally available person was a client, the emotionally
20:19
Speaker 6: unavailable parent would likely be able to change and the
20:24
Speaker 6: narcissist would not.
20:25
Speaker 2: Right, because it is that's typical, right. I remember asking
20:29
Speaker 2: my therapist if I was a narcissist, and he said,
20:31
Speaker 2: typically narcissists aren't asking for feedback.
20:36
Speaker 1: Yeah.
20:37
Speaker 6: I think sometimes we confuse narcissism with like being highly
20:42
Speaker 6: concerned or putting your needs in the forefront, Like that's
20:47
Speaker 6: not necessarily narcissistic. I think there is some strategy to
20:52
Speaker 6: a narcissist that maybe we don't understand about that dynamic
20:56
Speaker 6: where someone is strategically trying to manipulate you or make
21:00
Speaker 6: you believe something is happening that's not happening.
21:03
Speaker 1: With a parent.
21:06
Speaker 6: I think what's happening is that parent probably still needs
21:10
Speaker 6: a lot of parenting themselves, so being able to show
21:14
Speaker 6: up for a child is just out of their wheelhouse.
21:17
Speaker 6: Because they're really still looking for the same things that
21:21
Speaker 6: you're looking for, which is a lot of nurturing. Kids
21:24
Speaker 6: lead a lot they need people to tune into their world,
21:27
Speaker 6: and some parents they just don't have those skills and
21:30
Speaker 6: they don't really know how to develop them because they're
21:32
Speaker 6: still trying to get it from you or to give
21:36
Speaker 6: it to themselves.
21:38
Speaker 2: And what advice would you give to children like that
21:40
Speaker 2: that are dealing with an emotionally immature parent. How do
21:44
Speaker 2: you guide that?
21:46
Speaker 6: Well, you can have a relationship with an emotionally immature parent,
21:50
Speaker 6: the relationship is not going to be ideal because you
21:56
Speaker 6: cannot change that parent. So you know, for instance, if
22:00
Speaker 6: you have a parent who doesn't respond to let's say
22:03
Speaker 6: your career successes and you're like, mom, I got a
22:06
Speaker 6: new show, or mom, I got this thing going on,
22:08
Speaker 6: and they're like, oh, okay, you may want to not
22:12
Speaker 6: share with your parent until you feel secure in the
22:16
Speaker 6: way that they might respond. You may want to share
22:19
Speaker 6: with people who can really have a warm level of
22:22
Speaker 6: excitement and then tell your parent as a formality. But
22:25
Speaker 6: going to that person who has shown that they can't support,
22:29
Speaker 6: you know, looking for that support, that's going to hurt
22:32
Speaker 6: you every time. So the strategy for being in relationships
22:37
Speaker 6: with emotionally unavailable people is really to manage how you
22:42
Speaker 6: interact with them, your expectations around what they are actually
22:46
Speaker 6: capable of. With parents, we often give them expectations that
22:51
Speaker 6: they can never achieve because you know, everybody is not
22:56
Speaker 6: prepared to parent. What is the stat like seventy percent
22:59
Speaker 6: of people have unplanned pregnancies, So you know, people are
23:03
Speaker 6: not necessarily equipped to deal with everything that you know
23:09
Speaker 6: happens with a child, even when that child is an adult.
23:12
Speaker 1: Because you'll have.
23:13
Speaker 6: A lot of adults who say, well, maybe I could
23:15
Speaker 6: understand that they didn't get it when I was a kid,
23:18
Speaker 6: but now I'm thirty, I'm forty, and they still don't
23:21
Speaker 6: get it. And it's like, why do you think that
23:24
Speaker 6: the aging process means maturing emotionally? It doesn't necessarily mean that.
23:30
Speaker 6: And you're talking about them maturing during a high stress scenario.
23:36
Speaker 6: They were raising you and working and doing all these things.
23:39
Speaker 6: That's not the time to mature. So you know this
23:42
Speaker 6: idea that our parents should be able to get it
23:46
Speaker 6: at some point, it's like, well, what work have they done?
23:50
Speaker 6: What work are they doing? Are they listening to this podcast.
23:53
Speaker 6: Are they going to seminars? Are they in therapy? Like,
23:56
Speaker 6: what are they doing? If they're not doing anything, expectation
24:01
Speaker 6: of them changing is pretty small. And if you're into
24:05
Speaker 6: this sort of self improvement work and mental health projects
24:10
Speaker 6: and all of this sort of stuff, if you're into that,
24:12
Speaker 6: then that's great for you. But it's certainly not something
24:15
Speaker 6: that is likely to rub off on a person who
24:18
Speaker 6: is uninterested, and certainly a person who doesn't seem to
24:22
Speaker 6: have a problem with themselves.
24:24
Speaker 2: Okay, that's very interesting. Not everybody is mature and just
24:27
Speaker 2: because they are getting older, right, that's an important nugget
24:30
Speaker 2: of information to remember when you're dealing with a sixty
24:34
Speaker 2: year old moron. Remember that, everybody. Okay, we're gonna take
24:37
Speaker 2: a quick break and we'll be right back to take
24:38
Speaker 2: some callers.
24:44
Speaker 1: We're back, We are back.
24:45
Speaker 2: Okay, we're back with that. You're chob Yeah.
24:47
Speaker 3: So I wanted to ask about enmeshment.
24:50
Speaker 5: And we get a lot of calls and emails from
24:53
Speaker 5: people who are having difficulty with their family, either because
24:56
Speaker 5: they have chosen to leave the religion that they grew
24:59
Speaker 5: up in, that they were raised in, or that they
25:01
Speaker 5: come out of the closet and their families have a
25:03
Speaker 5: poor reaction to that.
25:05
Speaker 3: So I wonder is that a consequence of enmeshment Leaving.
25:08
Speaker 6: A religion can be, particularly if you're unwilling to support
25:15
Speaker 6: your child and discovering the new belief, or if you
25:17
Speaker 6: are unwilling to even accept your child if they have
25:21
Speaker 6: a new belief.
25:22
Speaker 1: Particularly one that they're not joining a cult.
25:25
Speaker 6: You know, you have this sometimes like within Christian sex
25:30
Speaker 6: right like oh my gosh, you've went from Catholic to
25:33
Speaker 6: this other thing, or you went from this to that,
25:35
Speaker 6: and you know, people can have a lot of conversation
25:38
Speaker 6: around that, meaning that everyone in this family needs to
25:43
Speaker 6: be Presbyterian. Everyone in this family needs to be you know,
25:48
Speaker 6: this particular thing, and if you are not that we
25:50
Speaker 6: cannot accept it. So that is an example of enmeshment.
25:56
Speaker 6: I would say that if you have a child or
25:59
Speaker 6: some one in the family who is LGBTQ, typically that
26:04
Speaker 6: is a value challenge in families that we do not
26:08
Speaker 6: believe or we do not support this thing. Is not
26:11
Speaker 6: necessarily we all have to be this one thing. I
26:15
Speaker 6: think that is a little deeper, and it goes to
26:18
Speaker 6: you know, if you are not this thing you end
26:21
Speaker 6: up here, so it you know, I think that's a
26:23
Speaker 6: really big thing in families, and I do talk about
26:26
Speaker 6: that a bit and drama free as to what I've
26:30
Speaker 6: seen sort of backfire for families. I live in the
26:33
Speaker 6: South and so I do encounter a lot of folks
26:36
Speaker 6: who are, you know, perhaps Christian, and you know, their
26:41
Speaker 6: family does not believe in, you know, them having a
26:44
Speaker 6: certain type of lifestyle, and it is a rough road.
26:47
Speaker 6: And my suggestions there is always too one be yourself
26:54
Speaker 6: and two also recognize it. In those situations, you are
27:00
Speaker 6: redefining their idea of who they thought you were, and
27:03
Speaker 6: they have to be able to process that. Sometimes they
27:07
Speaker 6: process it with you, which is terrible because who wants
27:10
Speaker 6: to hear it. And sometimes they find, you know, a
27:14
Speaker 6: therapist or someone else to process it with. But there
27:18
Speaker 6: is this period of time where you know, in some
27:21
Speaker 6: families they do go through this like value or moral crisis,
27:25
Speaker 6: even when they love you and want to be in
27:28
Speaker 6: relationship with you. And I would say that that is
27:31
Speaker 6: you know, on the on the realm of normal to
27:34
Speaker 6: have this sort of like I thought it was this
27:36
Speaker 6: and now I'm starting to understand that you will have
27:40
Speaker 6: a different life than what I thought it was.
27:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that's about It's very important to
27:45
Speaker 2: remember the processing time because for someone like me, I'm
27:47
Speaker 2: very impatient. I want everything to be quick.
27:49
Speaker 1: I'm quick.
27:50
Speaker 2: I take things in quickly and I and I can
27:52
Speaker 2: spit them back out quickly and I can comprehend the situation.
27:55
Speaker 2: But a lot of people do need a duration of
27:58
Speaker 2: time to actually process whatever for new information that they've
28:01
Speaker 2: been given. So when you do get a bad reaction
28:04
Speaker 2: if you're say it is you're coming out to your
28:06
Speaker 2: family and your family isn't as receptive as you would
28:09
Speaker 2: hope they would be, there is a period of time
28:12
Speaker 2: that you have to allow people to adjust to the
28:14
Speaker 2: new information. And I think we can say, you know,
28:17
Speaker 2: I know personally, I can lose sight of that. And
28:21
Speaker 2: it's a good reminder for all of our listeners. You know,
28:23
Speaker 2: everybody processes things differently, and some people take a lot
28:27
Speaker 2: of time and some people take, you know, less time.
28:29
Speaker 2: So to be open and not looking for immediate results.
28:34
Speaker 6: Well, I think it's very similar when we restructure our
28:37
Speaker 6: boundaries in families and we change you know, Hey, I
28:41
Speaker 6: know every year I come home for Thanksgiving, but this
28:44
Speaker 6: year I'm going to do this other thing. That new
28:47
Speaker 6: information can be very problematic. Changing anything when people are
28:52
Speaker 6: used to used to it being a certain way, is
28:55
Speaker 6: you know, a problem, and there is some adjustment people
28:58
Speaker 6: have to make on their end. We have the information
29:02
Speaker 6: well before them, and so we're already adjusted and we're like,
29:05
Speaker 6: what's the problem. Like, I just told you this thing
29:07
Speaker 6: I've been thinking about for two years, why don't you
29:09
Speaker 6: love it? And it's not to be received in that
29:13
Speaker 6: way that people really do need some time to sort
29:16
Speaker 6: of figure out what they feel about it and how
29:20
Speaker 6: to show up with you.
29:21
Speaker 3: Well, should we take some questions?
29:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's go. I can't wait for her to drop
29:26
Speaker 2: some more wisdom, you know.
29:28
Speaker 5: Let's start with a caller. Our first caller is Lauren.
29:32
Speaker 5: She says, Dear Chelsea. Last year, my partner of fourteen
29:35
Speaker 5: years ended our relationship and moved out of our apartment.
29:38
Speaker 5: It was an adjustment to take over full rent payments.
29:41
Speaker 5: My parents offered to let me move in with them,
29:43
Speaker 5: but I was determined to stay in my home and
29:45
Speaker 5: maintain my independence. I've received my lease renewal and the
29:48
Speaker 5: rent will increase by a whopping twelve percent. I've been
29:51
Speaker 5: dipping into an inheritance left to me by my grandparents
29:54
Speaker 5: to cover any shortages. There's not much inventory in my
29:56
Speaker 5: area that's less than what I'm currently paying either, so
29:59
Speaker 5: I can't move. I've renewed my lease, but made a
30:01
Speaker 5: commitment to myself that this will be my last year
30:04
Speaker 5: in this apartment, after which i'll temporarily move in with
30:06
Speaker 5: my parents. This will allow me to pay down credit
30:09
Speaker 5: card debt I accrued while my relationship was ending and
30:11
Speaker 5: I became depressed and did some emotional overspending. I'll build
30:14
Speaker 5: my savings and eventually begin looking for a more permanent home. However,
30:18
Speaker 5: I'm afraid that moving back into my childhood bedroom at
30:20
Speaker 5: thirty eight will tip me further into a depression that
30:23
Speaker 5: I've been fighting my way out of for two years,
30:25
Speaker 5: and I'm uncertain if my self esteem can take this hit.
30:28
Speaker 5: I've felt shame in losing my relationship and struggling to
30:31
Speaker 5: afford my own home and using my grandparents' money for rent.
30:34
Speaker 5: That feeling will now be magnified by living in my
30:36
Speaker 5: childhood bedroom, and I'm scared I'll be trapped. Plus, the
30:39
Speaker 5: loss of independence is scary. How will I date as
30:42
Speaker 5: an adult from my childhood bedroom. I'm truly grateful to
30:45
Speaker 5: have the support from my family. However, I'm still finding
30:47
Speaker 5: it tough as I prepare myself for the emotional toll
30:50
Speaker 5: of leaving home and with it the chapter of my
30:52
Speaker 5: life I spent with my partner and for losing some
30:54
Speaker 5: independence in my parents' house.
30:56
Speaker 3: Thank you both. I absolutely love this podcast.
30:58
Speaker 5: Listening to your wise words of a fe to others
31:01
Speaker 5: is getting me through this tough time of my own.
31:02
Speaker 1: Lauren, Hi, Lauren, Hi, Hi.
31:05
Speaker 4: Lauren Hilsey, Hi, Catherine Hi.
31:08
Speaker 2: This is Nager Chuab. She's our special guest today. She's
31:11
Speaker 2: a licensed therapist, so you're in good hands.
31:13
Speaker 4: Hi o Hi, thanks so much.
31:15
Speaker 2: Okay, so, first off, you have a year right left?
31:18
Speaker 2: I mean to prepare for this move.
31:20
Speaker 4: Correct, Yes, I now have a year.
31:22
Speaker 2: Okay, So isn't there a possibility that within this year
31:26
Speaker 2: you can figure out a different dynamic that won't make
31:29
Speaker 2: you have all of these feelings like finding a roommate
31:32
Speaker 2: to move in with or finding a different kind of
31:36
Speaker 2: I know you said most of the apartments in your
31:38
Speaker 2: area are the same price, but I mean you have
31:40
Speaker 2: a year to kind of find another solution if moving
31:43
Speaker 2: into your parents' house represents all of these kind of
31:46
Speaker 2: misgivings you have about yourself.
31:48
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, sire, And I'm considering the roommate option as well.
31:53
Speaker 2: And possibly getting an additional job, Like what do you
31:55
Speaker 2: do for a living? Do you have time to get
31:57
Speaker 2: another job or something that you could do on the
31:59
Speaker 2: weekends for ex income.
32:01
Speaker 4: I work at an independent bookstore, and sometimes I have
32:03
Speaker 4: to work on the weekends, and that's not always easy
32:06
Speaker 4: for me to tell in advance, so it's hard to
32:08
Speaker 4: schedule a second job. But I have thought about looking
32:11
Speaker 4: into second jobs I can do from home, maybe that
32:13
Speaker 4: aren't tied to a schedule, but you know, data entry, writing,
32:17
Speaker 4: those kind of things.
32:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that sounds a lot better. Like I
32:21
Speaker 2: would say, move into your parents if you were okay
32:23
Speaker 2: with that, but you sound like you're definitely not okay
32:25
Speaker 2: with that, And that has all of these separate meetings
32:29
Speaker 2: to you. And figuring out this situation independently before you
32:33
Speaker 2: have to move in with your parents and coming up
32:36
Speaker 2: with solutions so that you don't have to move in
32:38
Speaker 2: with your parents are going to serve you a lot
32:40
Speaker 2: better than kind of folding into a situation that you're
32:43
Speaker 2: not looking forward to Yeah.
32:46
Speaker 4: I think you're right, And part of why I decided
32:48
Speaker 4: to stay for one more year was trying to find,
32:51
Speaker 4: you know, the fortitude in myself to make changes in
32:53
Speaker 4: how I live, make changes to my budget, and see like,
32:55
Speaker 4: exactly what can I do? What can I do in
32:57
Speaker 4: a year?
32:58
Speaker 2: Yeah? What do you think, Nedra?
33:00
Speaker 6: You know, I wonder if you could reframe this from
33:05
Speaker 6: moving into my childhood home to moving in with my
33:08
Speaker 6: parents and reinventing that space talking to your parents about
33:14
Speaker 6: what living with them as an adult looks like versus
33:17
Speaker 6: living with them as you know, someone zero to eighteen.
33:22
Speaker 6: I think this is a wonderful opportunity for you to
33:26
Speaker 6: reposition yourself to be able to move out and maybe
33:31
Speaker 6: stay out for a longer period of time. But this
33:35
Speaker 6: sounds like a wonderful opportunity. I wonder if you could
33:38
Speaker 6: reframe this really as a gift to be able to
33:42
Speaker 6: have parents who have a space for you to move
33:45
Speaker 6: into where you can revisit your finances and think about
33:50
Speaker 6: how you want things to be in maybe five years
33:53
Speaker 6: or three years or whatever.
33:54
Speaker 1: The plan is.
33:55
Speaker 6: But you know, if you keep thinking of this as like,
33:58
Speaker 6: you know, little Lauren's bedroom where she had this, you know,
34:02
Speaker 6: poster on the wall, it will be a terrible experience.
34:06
Speaker 6: You are an adult, and I'm sure your apartment looks
34:08
Speaker 6: a nice, lovely way and you can recreate that. You know,
34:11
Speaker 6: look at some tiny home stuff on Penrish. You could
34:15
Speaker 6: get really creative with this space and really maximize where
34:20
Speaker 6: you are at this point. You'll have more more discretionary
34:24
Speaker 6: income to hang out with your friends, you might be
34:27
Speaker 6: able to do some of that frivolous spending that you
34:30
Speaker 6: were talking about, and you can certainly buy as many
34:33
Speaker 6: books as you like. So this is really to me,
34:36
Speaker 6: it's like, will they take more people in this house,
34:41
Speaker 6: because it's a wonderful opportunity to reposition yourself for a
34:47
Speaker 6: better situation in the future.
34:49
Speaker 5: Lauren, I'm going to tattle on you a little bit,
34:51
Speaker 5: but this is something that came out when we were
34:53
Speaker 5: having our sort of pre interview call. You know, I know,
34:56
Speaker 5: the breakup happens like eighteen months ago or so, and
34:59
Speaker 5: you're still in contact with your ex and like hanging out.
35:02
Speaker 5: I know that's been sort of difficult for.
35:04
Speaker 3: You guys and to me with that, and like having this.
35:08
Speaker 5: Extra year to sort of make a decision about moving
35:10
Speaker 5: in with your folks. It feels like maybe there's a
35:13
Speaker 5: bit of like a things are moving a little bit slowly,
35:17
Speaker 5: and I wonder, at Needra if you'd have some advice
35:20
Speaker 5: as far as like boundaries there with the ex, if
35:22
Speaker 5: it's okay to keep seeing him, if it's very painful
35:26
Speaker 5: for them, or what are good sort of next steps
35:29
Speaker 5: for Lauren.
35:31
Speaker 6: Well, I think we think about life is like this
35:35
Speaker 6: upward progression of stuff, and if we go back to
35:38
Speaker 6: some period in life, it's like a disaster. It's like
35:40
Speaker 6: go back to school, go back to my parents' house,
35:43
Speaker 6: go back to my ex. When an actuality, maybe everything
35:47
Speaker 6: is just kind of fluid and we are moving in
35:50
Speaker 6: and out of situations, and maybe this is a time
35:53
Speaker 6: with your ex where you need to evaluate how the
35:56
Speaker 6: relationship that you're establishing with your ex now is adding
36:01
Speaker 6: any value to your life or not. Is it putting
36:03
Speaker 6: you more in this space of oh my gosh, we
36:06
Speaker 6: should have been here with things, or is it like
36:08
Speaker 6: this is wonderful companionship. So you know, it's not necessarily
36:13
Speaker 6: bad to have a relationship with your ex, but what
36:16
Speaker 6: is the meaning of the relationship, How is the relationship
36:20
Speaker 6: impacting how you see yourself. Those are important things to
36:24
Speaker 6: think about as you're continuing to connect with this person.
36:28
Speaker 4: Yes, thank you. That all sounds like so many things
36:32
Speaker 4: I need to think about. I think we've had blurred
36:35
Speaker 4: lines over the nature of our relationship, him not wanting
36:38
Speaker 4: to put a label on it, and having some of
36:42
Speaker 4: his stuff still on my home. It definitely at times,
36:45
Speaker 4: I'm not really sure what we're intending. So good things
36:49
Speaker 4: to think about.
36:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean all different and lots of different advice
36:52
Speaker 2: to think about. I mean a lot of different perspectives,
36:55
Speaker 2: or at least a couple of different perspectives. But do
36:58
Speaker 2: you feel like relation to your ex that you guys
37:01
Speaker 2: are in a do you feel like it's a healthy dynamic?
37:04
Speaker 2: What you your communication with him and your relationship with
37:08
Speaker 2: him as it stands today?
37:10
Speaker 4: You know, I'm not sure. The last time we spoke,
37:13
Speaker 4: he expressed a lot of self loathing on his part
37:17
Speaker 4: for having and died the relationship and not knowing why,
37:21
Speaker 4: and listening to him talk, I just kept thinking, you know,
37:24
Speaker 4: like he's not in good working order to start up again.
37:29
Speaker 4: You know, he needs to love himself and I want
37:32
Speaker 4: him to do that. And it's you know, at times
37:33
Speaker 4: I do feel selfish, like think, oh my gosh, he
37:35
Speaker 4: you know, he's second guessing this, or he's not sure
37:38
Speaker 4: why he did what he did. Maybe we'll go back.
37:40
Speaker 4: But I do worry that he might be returning or
37:44
Speaker 4: thinking about returning as a way to kind of boost
37:46
Speaker 4: his self esteem and not have the guilt for ending
37:48
Speaker 4: the relationship.
37:49
Speaker 6: You know, I'm less concerned about what he's doing and
37:53
Speaker 6: what you're choosing to do, Laurene. I wonder what do
37:55
Speaker 6: you want in this dynamic? I hear a lot about
37:58
Speaker 6: I think he's doing this and it's probably like this,
38:01
Speaker 6: and it's like, well, this is your life. What type
38:03
Speaker 6: of relationship do you want with a person if you're dating.
38:07
Speaker 6: I don't know if you consider this dating, But if
38:10
Speaker 6: you're dating a person, what do you.
38:12
Speaker 1: Want that dynamic to look like? And is this it?
38:16
Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you for reframing it that way. Yeah, right now,
38:19
Speaker 4: it's not it.
38:20
Speaker 6: So maybe this is just companionship for now, and whatever
38:24
Speaker 6: his desire is for the relationship, it doesn't override what
38:28
Speaker 6: your desire is for a relationship. So if you want
38:32
Speaker 6: to go to the movies with this fellow, that's fine,
38:35
Speaker 6: But what you're looking for is not what he's offering.
38:38
Speaker 6: So just being clear about that can be really helpful.
38:41
Speaker 6: It can help you draw those boundaries of I need
38:44
Speaker 6: you to get your stuff out of my apartment in
38:46
Speaker 6: thirty days, right, because you know, if I'm just if
38:50
Speaker 6: we're just companions and we're spending time together, maybe in
38:54
Speaker 6: that type of relationship, I don't allow myself to be
38:57
Speaker 6: a storage facility.
38:59
Speaker 1: Right, So you think of what that looks like.
39:03
Speaker 6: Like, Okay, so we have some sort of relationship, but
39:06
Speaker 6: what would the boundaries for this type of relationship be, right?
39:11
Speaker 4: We haven't really put boundaries on it at all, and
39:14
Speaker 4: definitely need it definitely.
39:16
Speaker 1: Yeah.
39:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounds like you definitely need to implement some
39:19
Speaker 2: boundaries in all of your life, you know, like to
39:21
Speaker 2: decide what you want to do, Like if you're going
39:24
Speaker 2: to go move in with your parents, commit to making
39:26
Speaker 2: that a really positive situation. And if you're not going
39:29
Speaker 2: to commit to figuring out a way to make that
39:32
Speaker 2: a really positive situation, because you're in a gray zone.
39:35
Speaker 2: So hopefully some of this stuff that we've talked about
39:37
Speaker 2: today will help you.
39:39
Speaker 4: Yeah, it is, it is so helpful. Thank you all
39:41
Speaker 4: three of you. This is this is really wonderful.
39:43
Speaker 2: Okay, well great, Well.
39:45
Speaker 3: Keep us posted on what happens with you.
39:47
Speaker 2: Okay, Lauren, pick up drama free read some There's some
39:50
Speaker 2: stuff there that will apply to you for sure.
39:52
Speaker 3: Oh we'll do all.
39:53
Speaker 5: Right, Thanks Lauren, Thank you, Lauren, thanks so much. Our
39:56
Speaker 5: next email and this is just an email, so he
39:58
Speaker 5: won't join us. But this comes for from Chris. He says,
40:02
Speaker 5: I'm a gay man in my early thirties, the youngest
40:04
Speaker 5: of three, and this involves my sister, the middle child,
40:06
Speaker 5: who's four years older. Almost ten years ago, after graduating college,
40:10
Speaker 5: I enrolled in graduate school. My older sister, after doing
40:13
Speaker 5: nothing for a few years in her twenties, enrolled two.
40:16
Speaker 5: I initially thought it would be great to have her
40:18
Speaker 5: with me during what was sure to be a stressful
40:20
Speaker 5: few years, and I quickly made a tight knit group
40:22
Speaker 5: of friends, three guys and three girls. Toward the end
40:25
Speaker 5: of grad school, my sister became increasingly close to my
40:28
Speaker 5: friend group, despite having made her own friends during our
40:31
Speaker 5: time in school. Eventually, I finished grad school and moved
40:34
Speaker 5: to a big, fun city one hour north. I was
40:36
Speaker 5: excited for a fresh start to be whoever I wanted,
40:39
Speaker 5: make gay friends and live as an outgay man for
40:41
Speaker 5: the first time in my life. Six months later, my
40:44
Speaker 5: sister moved to the same city as me. I quickly
40:47
Speaker 5: made gay friends and made up for the fun I
40:49
Speaker 5: didn't have while in grad school. Before I knew it,
40:52
Speaker 5: I had so many gay friends and was having a blast.
40:54
Speaker 5: But soon my closest friends were becoming my sister's close friends.
40:57
Speaker 5: I realized she would meet them in passing and then
41:00
Speaker 5: DM them to hang out.
41:02
Speaker 3: Now, while this might not have.
41:03
Speaker 5: Been inherently wrong, it felt suffocating to me. Soon I'd
41:07
Speaker 5: show up to gay friends' houses and she'd already be there.
41:10
Speaker 5: She'd cook dinner for my friends when I wasn't around,
41:12
Speaker 5: and she even once went on a trip with a
41:14
Speaker 5: few of my friends and I didn't find out about
41:16
Speaker 5: it until later. Shouldn't she be busy making her own
41:19
Speaker 5: friends and having her own life. I know the importance
41:21
Speaker 5: of family and how much you talk about sisterly love.
41:24
Speaker 5: I love my sister always, but I do not think that,
41:26
Speaker 5: just because we're siblings, that my sister has allowed carte
41:29
Speaker 5: blanche access to my life, especially when I've expressed wanting
41:32
Speaker 5: boundaries to have some things for myself. Am I wrong
41:34
Speaker 5: for feeling this way, Chris.
41:36
Speaker 2: I don't know it. Does that sound like enmeshment?
41:38
Speaker 1: That's right, It definitely sounds like immeshment.
41:42
Speaker 6: And I'm thinking here that Chris could do a better
41:46
Speaker 6: job of not introducing his sister to his friends. There
41:50
Speaker 6: are some things, it sounds like that need to be private,
41:54
Speaker 6: because if he's expressed that I want my friends to
41:58
Speaker 6: be my friends, please do not call them, please do not.
42:02
Speaker 6: There is something sacred that he needs to keep in
42:05
Speaker 6: place that doesn't involve her, because she's not really honoring
42:09
Speaker 6: this request to have these you know, separate relationships or
42:14
Speaker 6: you go find your own people. Doesn't sound like she's
42:16
Speaker 6: going to do that from city to city, from you know,
42:20
Speaker 6: life event to life event. She's really latching one. And
42:23
Speaker 6: so he will have to be the person to say,
42:27
Speaker 6: I will not invite you to this thing. I will
42:29
Speaker 6: not introduce you to these people, so she cannot continue
42:34
Speaker 6: to have these relationships. You know, I think it could
42:37
Speaker 6: be very hard for your friends to meet your sister,
42:39
Speaker 6: and she's a very lovely person and to say to her, hey,
42:43
Speaker 6: we can't talk anymore because i'm your brother's friend, Right,
42:48
Speaker 6: That's a really hard thing to say. But it might
42:52
Speaker 6: be something that he needs to talk about with everyone
42:55
Speaker 6: in his life that Hey, I'm in this situation with
42:58
Speaker 6: my sister. I love her dearly, but I'm really trying
43:00
Speaker 6: to help her meet her own people. She has this
43:03
Speaker 6: history of really latching on to my people. So if
43:06
Speaker 6: she DMS you, you could just let her know that
43:09
Speaker 6: we've had this conversation. Sometimes with our boundaries, we like
43:13
Speaker 6: to say things once and give people the chance to
43:16
Speaker 6: do something. And then after we say it once and
43:18
Speaker 6: we say it twice, we have to do something about it.
43:21
Speaker 6: We have to start to issue some sort of consequences.
43:25
Speaker 6: The consequence of this would be eliminating her from social things,
43:30
Speaker 6: so she no longer has that opportunity.
43:33
Speaker 4: You know.
43:33
Speaker 6: Also, in a very loving way, you could, you know, hey,
43:37
Speaker 6: have you looked into book clubs?
43:38
Speaker 5: Hey?
43:39
Speaker 6: You know, I work with this lady who's really cool.
43:42
Speaker 6: It says like you all would be wonderful friends. Helping
43:45
Speaker 6: her meet some people could be helpful, But ultimately you
43:48
Speaker 6: will have to take things into your own hands where
43:51
Speaker 6: you say I can't even include you anymore, because I
43:55
Speaker 6: have learned the hard way over and over that you
43:58
Speaker 6: will start to absorb these things.
44:01
Speaker 1: I'm doing as your own.
44:03
Speaker 2: But this woman, the sister, sounds like she has absolutely
44:06
Speaker 2: no boundaries. I mean she's following him from city to city,
44:11
Speaker 2: is hanging out with his friends. I mean, she's not.
44:13
Speaker 1: Going to take that.
44:14
Speaker 2: Well. Obviously, we already discussed people having boundaries set that
44:18
Speaker 2: haven't had them before and their bad reaction to them.
44:21
Speaker 2: So how would you deal with someone who's going to
44:24
Speaker 2: have a hostile reaction to him trying to set a boundary,
44:28
Speaker 2: because I would disagree. I don't think it's up to
44:30
Speaker 2: him to talk to his friends about it. Like this
44:32
Speaker 2: is a her issue, you know, Like I have a
44:35
Speaker 2: lot of friends that are just nice enough to my
44:37
Speaker 2: family that they would hang out with them as a favor.
44:40
Speaker 2: So like he has to go around and basically tell
44:42
Speaker 2: all these people to stop doing it. I mean, I
44:44
Speaker 2: feel like it's a her problem, not is his friend's problem.
44:48
Speaker 1: Well, I agree with you. I think it's her problem.
44:51
Speaker 6: But I think if he has spoken to her, he
44:55
Speaker 6: may want to try something different. Speaking to the friends
44:58
Speaker 6: is just one way to to address it, and other
45:02
Speaker 6: people may not feel comfortable set in that boundary. That's
45:04
Speaker 6: why I say a lot of it will be not
45:07
Speaker 6: including his sister in on certain information or including her
45:12
Speaker 6: in these friend gatherings and social events where she has
45:15
Speaker 6: the opportunity to latch on to other people. She can't
45:19
Speaker 6: DM anyone that she doesn't know about, she can't invite
45:23
Speaker 6: people on vacation if she's never met them, and it
45:27
Speaker 6: can be known that I will not mix my friends
45:30
Speaker 6: with you anymore. And she is entitled to have whatever reaction.
45:35
Speaker 6: But it sounds like, you know, the letter writer here
45:39
Speaker 6: has a really big, important reaction as well. I meant
45:42
Speaker 6: the letter was written to say, I'm having this really
45:45
Speaker 6: big issue, so she can have whatever response she's going
45:49
Speaker 6: to have, and I think the execution of it is,
45:52
Speaker 6: I have to exclude you from certain things as a
45:55
Speaker 6: consequence of you not honoring the boundary. Because the solution
46:00
Speaker 6: is not for her to start to do these things
46:02
Speaker 6: because she hasn't done them. She has very poor boundaries.
46:05
Speaker 6: It is not really anyone's job to fix that, but
46:09
Speaker 6: it is, you know, perhaps his job to make sure
46:13
Speaker 6: that his boundary is honored.
46:15
Speaker 5: I feel like, also if you tell your friends, like
46:17
Speaker 5: if you do meet my sister, like she's a little
46:19
Speaker 5: bit clinging, she like tries to hang out with all
46:21
Speaker 5: my friends and sort of like with an eye roll,
46:23
Speaker 5: they'll they'll kind of get the gest right.
46:25
Speaker 1: They won't want to hang out with her.
46:26
Speaker 2: I think, well, yeah, I mean, but it's I feel
46:29
Speaker 2: like the issue is her. You know, she used to
46:31
Speaker 2: like cultivate her own friendships and her own relationships. Yeah,
46:34
Speaker 2: I mean, And it's hard to hear from a family member.
46:36
Speaker 2: I don't want you around all the time, you know, right,
46:38
Speaker 2: So it's like I just am thinking about like what
46:40
Speaker 2: it would feel like, you know. She thinks, probably like, oh,
46:42
Speaker 2: this is great. My brother and I have all the
46:44
Speaker 2: same friends. We're super close, we do everything together. His
46:48
Speaker 2: friends are my friends. So it's gonna be like a
46:50
Speaker 2: real loud thud when she finds out that's not the case.
46:54
Speaker 5: Yeah, but yeah, Well, let's take a quick break and
46:57
Speaker 5: we'll come back with a question to wrap up.
46:59
Speaker 2: Okay, So we'll take a break and we'll be right
47:01
Speaker 2: back to wrap up with Nedra.
47:07
Speaker 5: And we're back, and we're back, and I have one
47:10
Speaker 5: last quick caller for us. So Allison is calling in.
47:13
Speaker 5: She says, Dear Chelsea, I'm adopted. I found my birth
47:18
Speaker 5: mother more than twenty five years ago, and my birth
47:20
Speaker 5: father at the same time. Over the past twenty five
47:23
Speaker 5: plus years, I've built great relationships with my birth mother,
47:26
Speaker 5: my half sister, adopted sister, cousins, etc. I've enjoyed those
47:30
Speaker 5: relationships immensely. I met my birth father once and have
47:33
Speaker 5: no relationship with him. My question is do I approach
47:37
Speaker 5: my four half brothers on his side, his sons, who
47:40
Speaker 5: he's told me have no idea I exist, and let
47:43
Speaker 5: them know they have a half sister out here before
47:45
Speaker 5: they or I start dying. And we entirely missed the
47:48
Speaker 5: chance to meet. My adopted sister found her birth family
47:51
Speaker 5: and is loving having two new brothers. She's very encouraging
47:54
Speaker 5: of me to reach out to these people. But I'm
47:56
Speaker 5: on the fence. What do you two think? Should this
47:59
Speaker 5: family secret blow up or stay dormant?
48:01
Speaker 2: Allison, That's a tough one.
48:03
Speaker 3: Yeah.
48:04
Speaker 5: The other thing that she mentioned is they all live
48:07
Speaker 5: kind of in the same area and she's worried about
48:09
Speaker 5: her kids and their kids like meeting and volume lo.
48:14
Speaker 2: Hi, Hi, Hi, Alison? How are you? Oh?
48:18
Speaker 6: Wow?
48:18
Speaker 7: Thank you, Chelsea, how are you?
48:19
Speaker 2: I'm great. This is Nedra towab our special guest today.
48:23
Speaker 2: So you've discovered some of your family members and not
48:25
Speaker 2: all of your family members CORP.
48:28
Speaker 7: I've known my birth mother and father for thirty years.
48:32
Speaker 7: I've had a relationship with my birth mother and that
48:34
Speaker 7: side of the family all this time. I have never
48:36
Speaker 7: had a relationship with my birth father, and he has
48:39
Speaker 7: four sons whom I have never met, nor do I
48:42
Speaker 7: believe they know about me.
48:44
Speaker 2: Okay, what do you think ndra about this?
48:47
Speaker 1: I have a question here, who's secret is this?
48:51
Speaker 7: It would be my birth father's secret.
48:54
Speaker 6: Okay, why do you feel the responsibility to keep someone
48:58
Speaker 6: else's secret?
49:00
Speaker 7: Is a very fair question, And I don't know. My
49:03
Speaker 7: grandmother who raised me, basically said she was very old school,
49:07
Speaker 7: and she's like, don't you ever embarrass him by coming
49:10
Speaker 7: out and you know, telling his kids about you. But
49:13
Speaker 7: my other my adopted sister, has met her family, and
49:17
Speaker 7: she's like, who cares. He's an old Like who cares?
49:21
Speaker 7: Why do you care so much? And I don't. I
49:23
Speaker 7: don't know, I shouldn't, I suppose, but I'm here to
49:26
Speaker 7: hear your feedback, so let me know.
49:28
Speaker 6: Yeah, it sounds like a lot of shame management, Like
49:32
Speaker 6: I'm I'm going to manage his shame by not allowing
49:37
Speaker 6: this thing to come out. That would make him feel
49:39
Speaker 6: some sort of way and you know, be put in
49:42
Speaker 6: position to have certain conversations and confrontations and this sort
49:47
Speaker 6: of thing. So I will try to make him feel
49:49
Speaker 6: comfortable by keeping this secret even though it's not my secret.
49:54
Speaker 7: Yep. That about sums it up.
49:55
Speaker 2: And also you can easily just reach out to them
49:59
Speaker 2: and like leave the ball in their court. You know,
50:01
Speaker 2: you're reaching out to them, you give them the information,
50:05
Speaker 2: I'm your half sister, this is what happened, and then
50:08
Speaker 2: you're covering both. I live in the same community, right,
50:11
Speaker 2: is it the same town, same community.
50:14
Speaker 7: A northern California fish.
50:15
Speaker 2: Yes, you all live in northern California.
50:19
Speaker 7: We do.
50:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, So okay, I live in this area. And it's
50:23
Speaker 2: totally up to you if you guys, because that way,
50:25
Speaker 2: you're kind of accomplishing all of the things you need
50:27
Speaker 2: to accomplish. You're not holding anyone's secret, you're not managing
50:30
Speaker 2: anyone's shame, and you're doing outreach, you know, and actually
50:35
Speaker 2: taking a step towards meeting them. And then it's in
50:37
Speaker 2: their court if they want to meet you. You know,
50:39
Speaker 2: you don't want to force that on anybody. If they're interested, great,
50:42
Speaker 2: and if they're not interested. Okay, well you tried, right.
50:46
Speaker 2: I mean, there's no harm, no foul really, and I agree.
50:49
Speaker 2: I mean, who cares about your birth father and his
50:51
Speaker 2: feelings like that? You have your own life and this
50:54
Speaker 2: is your decision.
50:55
Speaker 5: Yeah, And it sounds like you owe him very little,
50:57
Speaker 5: like he seems like maybe he was a sperm donor basically,
51:00
Speaker 5: and you know here are yeah, exactly exactly. So I
51:06
Speaker 5: don't think you owe him much.
51:08
Speaker 7: Do I give him a chance to tell them ahead
51:10
Speaker 7: by letting this other cousin know that this is my
51:12
Speaker 7: plan in like thirty days, I'm going to come out
51:15
Speaker 7: and reach out to them and give him the chance
51:17
Speaker 7: to come clean ahead of time. Or do I just
51:19
Speaker 7: lay it up and let the chips fall where they may.
51:22
Speaker 6: Well, he's had thirty years to tell them, true, that's
51:26
Speaker 6: a very long time. I don't know if he needs
51:28
Speaker 6: thirty more days understood.
51:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like you don't really owe him anything. That's
51:33
Speaker 2: another courtesy.
51:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I know.
51:36
Speaker 7: It's just so tied up in this whole, like, don't
51:39
Speaker 7: embarrass him, Like I don't know why he would be embarrassed.
51:43
Speaker 7: It was a mistake thirty years or fifty seven years ago.
51:46
Speaker 2: Now, Yeah, and there's not a lot of time. I
51:50
Speaker 2: mean there's I don't sorry, it just sounds so morbid.
51:53
Speaker 2: It's not that there's not a lot of time left,
51:54
Speaker 2: but like enough time has gone by, you know, like
51:58
Speaker 2: sure to avoid it. And you're saying that your grandmother
52:02
Speaker 2: said that to you, you know, don't embarrass him. And
52:05
Speaker 2: there always sentences that some adult has said to us
52:08
Speaker 2: that stick with us for the rest of our lives,
52:10
Speaker 2: that hold such little meaning. It's in a moment where
52:14
Speaker 2: they're saying something and sometimes they don't even know what
52:16
Speaker 2: they've said, or they'd have no idea how hurtful what
52:19
Speaker 2: they've said is. I can think of a couple of
52:21
Speaker 2: sentences my father said to me where I was like,
52:23
Speaker 2: I will never ever forget those two sentences. And I
52:26
Speaker 2: know he would probably want to take that back if
52:28
Speaker 2: he could, so I wouldn't put so much value in
52:31
Speaker 2: what someone said to you about another person.
52:34
Speaker 6: And if your grandmother could speak now, she might have
52:39
Speaker 6: something different to say about the situation. I mean she
52:42
Speaker 6: spoke from a place of being highly concerned about him
52:47
Speaker 6: and less concerned about you.
52:49
Speaker 1: And seeing how.
52:50
Speaker 6: You've struggled with this, probably over the last thirty years
52:53
Speaker 6: I think is you know, it's fair to say that
52:56
Speaker 6: perhaps she misspoke and your loyalty has been to her,
53:01
Speaker 6: But is she still alive? No? Okay, So that loyalty
53:07
Speaker 6: that you had with her, you know, it sounds like
53:10
Speaker 6: you've transferred it to your dad and you haven't even
53:14
Speaker 6: talked to him about this for him to say that
53:16
Speaker 6: there's any embarrassment or you know, any of these things
53:19
Speaker 6: that she assumes that he might feel. So it's you know,
53:22
Speaker 6: it's a lot of hearsay, and sometimes this is the
53:25
Speaker 6: thing that's needed to break situations open. It might explain
53:29
Speaker 6: a lot about who he is to his other children,
53:31
Speaker 6: like who knows. So I don't know if keeping this
53:36
Speaker 6: secret is something.
53:39
Speaker 1: That will feel good to you.
53:40
Speaker 5: Yeah, I love what you said about you know, she
53:43
Speaker 5: might have something different to say now because it was
53:45
Speaker 5: also probably a very different time culturally absolute when she
53:49
Speaker 5: said that, right, it was like back then it was
53:51
Speaker 5: this big, you know, shameful secret if you had a
53:53
Speaker 5: child out quote unquote out of wedlock.
53:55
Speaker 3: But you know, things are different now.
53:57
Speaker 7: Yeah, all right, all right, ladies, Okay, I guess I'm
54:01
Speaker 7: taking a plunge.
54:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, lady, go for it. Report back. Let us know
54:05
Speaker 2: how that works out. Okay, well, thank you so much
54:08
Speaker 2: for joining us. Thank you for all these wisdom pieces.
54:10
Speaker 2: I loved your book. I hope all of our listeners
54:13
Speaker 2: get it. And do you have another book?
54:15
Speaker 1: Yeah?
54:16
Speaker 2: I have.
54:17
Speaker 1: I have a few books.
54:18
Speaker 6: I have Set Boundaries Fine Peace, I have Drama Free,
54:21
Speaker 6: and I have one coming out consider This that will
54:24
Speaker 6: be out in October.
54:25
Speaker 2: Okay, greatly exciting. Okay, well, thank you so much for
54:28
Speaker 2: being here. Ndra.
54:30
Speaker 1: You're welcome and have a great day you as well.
54:33
Speaker 2: Okay, bye, listeners, we'll here, we'll hear you and see
54:36
Speaker 2: you next week. That's from you to us, not the
54:38
Speaker 2: other way around. Okay. So upcoming shows that I have
54:43
Speaker 2: you guys, I'm coming to Texas. I'm coming to Saint
54:45
Speaker 2: Louis and Kansas City, and then I will be in
54:48
Speaker 2: Las Vegas performing at the Chelsea Theater inside the Cosmopolitan Hotel.
54:52
Speaker 2: I'm coming to Brooklyn, New York at the King's Theater
54:56
Speaker 2: on November eighth, and I have tickets on sale throughout
55:00
Speaker 2: the end of the year in December. So if you're
55:03
Speaker 2: in a city like Philadelphia or Bethlehem or San Diego
55:07
Speaker 2: or New Orleans or Omaha. Check Chelseahandler dot com for tickets. Okay,
55:12
Speaker 2: if you'd.
55:13
Speaker 5: Like advice from Chelsea, shoot us an email at Dear
55:15
Speaker 5: Chelsea podcast at gmail dot com and be sure to
55:18
Speaker 5: include your phone number. Dear Chelsea is edited and engineered
55:22
Speaker 5: by Brad Dickert executive producer Catherine Law and be sure
55:25
Speaker 5: to check out our merch at Chelseahandler dot com