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Silicon Valley in a Sand Trap with Sam Ghantous · The Killscreen Podcast

• 0:02
  Jamin Warren: Hi there.
• 0:03
  Jamin Warren: I'm Jamon Warren and welcome to
• 0:03
  Jamin Warren: Kill Screen where we examine the
• 0:06
  Jamin Warren: future of interdisciplinary play.
• 0:08
  Jamin Warren: So today we're talking with artist
• 0:08
  Jamin Warren: Sam Ganus on about his latest work,
• 0:13
  Jamin Warren: your golf course Made My GPU, which
• 0:13
  Jamin Warren: just opened at the I've Yang Gallery.
• 0:18
  Jamin Warren: Here's, uh, something
• 0:18
  Jamin Warren: that you might not know.
• 0:20
  Jamin Warren: The same Ultrapure Silica mine
• 0:20
  Jamin Warren: in North Carolina ends up in both
• 0:24
  Jamin Warren: microchips surrounding us and the sand
• 0:24
  Jamin Warren: traps at Augusta National Golf Club.
• 0:28
  Jamin Warren: This is a geological coincidence, and that
• 0:28
  Jamin Warren: became Sam's entry point into questions
• 0:34
  Jamin Warren: about extraction, desire, and what our
• 0:34
  Jamin Warren: digital lives actually cost the Earth.
• 0:39
  Jamin Warren: Sam was born Oman and now lives
• 0:39
  Jamin Warren: in Zurich and came to game
• 0:42
  Jamin Warren: engines through an unusual path.
• 0:45
  Jamin Warren: As someone who was making games
• 0:45
  Jamin Warren: specifically, but someone trying
• 0:48
  Jamin Warren: to understand how everything today
• 0:48
  Jamin Warren: ends towards this game-like gamified
• 0:53
  Jamin Warren: process, he describes himself as
• 0:53
  Jamin Warren: actually being afraid of hardware.
• 0:56
  Jamin Warren: You'll hear that at the beginning.
• 0:57
  Jamin Warren: And his new work forces us to
• 0:57
  Jamin Warren: confront the physical reality
• 1:01
  Jamin Warren: behind all of our screens.
• 1:02
  Jamin Warren: The work is really cool.
• 1:03
  Jamin Warren: It's got this three channel video
• 1:03
  Jamin Warren: installation, silicone wafer sculptures
• 1:07
  Jamin Warren: featuring Italian Renaissance paintings.
• 1:09
  Jamin Warren: And he's built what he calls, uh,
• 1:09
  Jamin Warren: a confession and an indictment
• 1:13
  Jamin Warren: asking what role any individual
• 1:13
  Jamin Warren: plays in these vast movements of
• 1:17
  Jamin Warren: material from mineral to binary.
• 1:19
  Jamin Warren: Alright, let's get into it.
• 1:21
  Jamin Warren: Okay, cool, cool, cool.
• 1:23
  Jamin Warren: Um, so I, I think before we jump
• 1:23
  Jamin Warren: into, you know, your golf course, can
• 1:27
  Jamin Warren: you tell me a little bit about like
• 1:27
  Jamin Warren: your relationship to, um, I guess
• 1:33
  Jamin Warren: your, your relationship to, um, like
• 1:33
  Jamin Warren: games and game based technology?
• 1:36
  Jamin Warren: 'cause I know there's, there's
• 1:36
  Jamin Warren: a bit of that in this work, even
• 1:39
  Jamin Warren: though it's not explicitly a game,
• 1:39
  Jamin Warren: like some of the other things that
• 1:41
  Jamin Warren: you've, you've worked on in the past.
• 1:43
  Jamin Warren: But yeah.
• 1:44
  Jamin Warren: Can you tell me, um, about
• 1:44
  Jamin Warren: how conceptually this work
• 1:47
  Jamin Warren: fits in with like some other.
• 1:49
  Jamin Warren: Uh, interactions that you've had with like
• 1:49
  Jamin Warren: games as a, as a medium, as an artist.
• 1:55
  Sam Ghantous: Yeah, I mean, I, I
• 1:55
  Sam Ghantous: think maybe to be disappointing
• 1:57
  Sam Ghantous: upfront, it's uh, don't have
• 1:57
  Sam Ghantous: much of a relationship to games.
• 2:02
  Sam Ghantous: Because I got to games through software,
• 2:05
  Jamin Warren: Uh, okay.
• 2:06
  Sam Ghantous: making my first
• 2:06
  Sam Ghantous: games was making them an unreal
• 2:08
  Sam Ghantous: engine, or not an unreal, sorry.
• 2:09
  Sam Ghantous: Wow.
• 2:10
  Sam Ghantous: In Unity, it was a way to make apps
• 2:10
  Sam Ghantous: and the like ability to gamify them
• 2:16
  Sam Ghantous: was something as a way to reflect on
• 2:16
  Sam Ghantous: what it means to use software today and
• 2:20
  Sam Ghantous: its tendencies towards gamification.
• 2:23
  Sam Ghantous: And so I'd rather see all of this
• 2:23
  Sam Ghantous: within this big sludge of media
• 2:27
  Sam Ghantous: more generally, the media that like.
• 2:29
  Sam Ghantous: Is, uh, we are, we are native to,
• 2:29
  Sam Ghantous: that surrounds us, temps us that
• 2:36
  Sam Ghantous: is accessible on one hand, but
• 2:36
  Sam Ghantous: maybe black buffs on the other hand.
• 2:40
  Sam Ghantous: And so I, I'm interested more broadly
• 2:40
  Sam Ghantous: in media, in the ways that that gets
• 2:44
  Sam Ghantous: tangled up with that we tend to say
• 2:44
  Sam Ghantous: are maybe a little more physical
• 2:49
  Sam Ghantous: or more present or more spatial.
• 2:51
  Sam Ghantous: And, and so there's always that interplay.
• 2:53
  Sam Ghantous: And so as far as the.
• 2:56
  Sam Ghantous: The new project goes, it's still about
• 2:56
  Sam Ghantous: that kind of culture of media, even
• 3:00
  Sam Ghantous: if I'm not using the media directly.
• 3:02
  Sam Ghantous: And so tell various stories about
• 3:02
  Sam Ghantous: how that media computation more
• 3:08
  Sam Ghantous: generally and our spaces, our
• 3:08
  Sam Ghantous: environments get rolled up into it.
• 3:13
  Sam Ghantous: And so, for instance, one moment
• 3:13
  Sam Ghantous: of real gamification one of
• 3:18
  Sam Ghantous: the stories I tell in this.
• 3:20
  Sam Ghantous: Um, this video your
• 3:20
  Sam Ghantous: golf course made my GPU.
• 3:24
  Sam Ghantous: three stories.
• 3:25
  Sam Ghantous: One of them is about a sand dredger
• 3:25
  Sam Ghantous: that the giant, giant Chinese company
• 3:30
  Sam Ghantous: that makes this giant sand dredger
• 3:30
  Sam Ghantous: says that it edits the map, right?
• 3:36
  Sam Ghantous: And so it's like using of games, of apps,
• 3:36
  Sam Ghantous: of editability, of user, Uh, authorship
• 3:46
  Sam Ghantous: more, more broadly and applies it to
• 3:46
  Sam Ghantous: the scale of the earth in a scary way.
• 3:50
  Sam Ghantous: And so that, that is the, one of the
• 3:50
  Sam Ghantous: ways, or one of the ways that both,
• 3:55
  Sam Ghantous: um, that culture of media is present
• 3:55
  Sam Ghantous: for all of us, and one of the ways
• 4:00
  Sam Ghantous: that it's tangled up with the earth
• 4:00
  Sam Ghantous: is a kind of giant environment.
• 4:04
  Sam Ghantous: Yeah.
• 4:04
  Sam Ghantous: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 4:05
  Sam Ghantous: I mean, you're also asking, I think
• 4:05
  Sam Ghantous: this has been, um, for people who play
• 4:09
  Sam Ghantous: games, um, there is a, a real emphasis
• 4:09
  Sam Ghantous: on like, newer, better, faster, um,
• 4:15
  Sam Ghantous: you know, games are interesting because
• 4:15
  Sam Ghantous: they're um, a medium that are very.
• 4:19
  Sam Ghantous: At least for video games, it's very,
• 4:19
  Sam Ghantous: they're very bound to technology.
• 4:23
  Sam Ghantous: And so the things that are possible from,
• 4:23
  Sam Ghantous: I mean, I guess the one nice thing about
• 4:26
  Sam Ghantous: games is that oftentimes the things that
• 4:26
  Sam Ghantous: are possible with games are, um, not
• 4:31
  Sam Ghantous: just technology for technology's sake.
• 4:32
  Sam Ghantous: So, you know, advances in, um,
• 4:32
  Sam Ghantous: you know, multiplayer games,
• 4:35
  Sam Ghantous: like that's a function of you.
• 4:37
  Sam Ghantous: Increased internet speeds or like, they do
• 4:37
  Sam Ghantous: all like enhancements in what happens with
• 4:43
  Sam Ghantous: technology does open like new doorways
• 4:43
  Sam Ghantous: to like doing new things with games in
• 4:47
  Sam Ghantous: terms of creating persistent worlds.
• 4:49
  Sam Ghantous: Although I do think we're sort
• 4:49
  Sam Ghantous: of at a little bit of a like
• 4:51
  Sam Ghantous: end of history moment where it's
• 4:51
  Sam Ghantous: like, I feel like we have enough.
• 4:55
  Sam Ghantous: Yeah.
• 4:55
  Sam Ghantous: don't, I don't think it's like, do
• 4:55
  Sam Ghantous: games need to be like more realistic?
• 4:57
  Sam Ghantous: Do you need like, I,
• 4:57
  Sam Ghantous: like, I, I don't think so.
• 5:00
  Sam Ghantous: I think we're like, I think we're good.
• 5:01
  Sam Ghantous: I think we're good for like another,
• 5:01
  Sam Ghantous: another decade a Anyway, all this to
• 5:05
  Sam Ghantous: say, I, I do think for people who,
• 5:05
  Sam Ghantous: who play games, they're not asking
• 5:08
  Sam Ghantous: these questions about like, where
• 5:08
  Sam Ghantous: the technology ultimately comes from.
• 5:10
  Sam Ghantous: And it's very abstract.
• 5:12
  Sam Ghantous: It's extremely abstract in a way that,
• 5:12
  Sam Ghantous: um, in a way that, uh, um, in a way,
• 5:17
  Sam Ghantous: at least your, your, your work, you
• 5:17
  Sam Ghantous: know, for this particular piece kind
• 5:19
  Sam Ghantous: of forces someone to be like presently
• 5:19
  Sam Ghantous: like engaged with what that means to,
• 5:23
  Sam Ghantous: you know, have the newest PlayStation
• 5:23
  Sam Ghantous: five or whatever that might be.
• 5:26
  Sam Ghantous: Um, yeah.
• 5:27
  Sam Ghantous: And I think more than, I mean, I
• 5:27
  Sam Ghantous: think there's a big part of that
• 5:29
  Sam Ghantous: work that has to do with like, it's.
• 5:31
  Sam Ghantous: Particular materiality.
• 5:32
  Sam Ghantous: So another example is a story of like,
• 5:32
  Sam Ghantous: uh, very rare silica, this one specific
• 5:40
  Sam Ghantous: mine in North Carolina that's a result
• 5:40
  Sam Ghantous: of like geological effects from hundreds
• 5:45
  Sam Ghantous: of millions of years ago, is used to make
• 5:45
  Sam Ghantous: all these microchips that surround us all
• 5:51
  Sam Ghantous: the time that enable all this capacity.
• 5:54
  Sam Ghantous: And at the same time becomes this, um,
• 5:54
  Sam Ghantous: golf course or it becomes the, sorry,
• 6:00
  Sam Ghantous: the, um, bunker or the sand trap in
• 6:00
  Sam Ghantous: the premier golf course in the us.
• 6:06
  Sam Ghantous: And so there's a kind of story or
• 6:06
  Sam Ghantous: a set of stories about how that
• 6:09
  Sam Ghantous: stuff is super earthly and mineral
• 6:09
  Sam Ghantous: and material and, and, and dirty
• 6:14
  Sam Ghantous: in a way that we tend to overlook.
• 6:16
  Sam Ghantous: But the other side of that, that I
• 6:16
  Sam Ghantous: think you're getting at as well is
• 6:18
  Sam Ghantous: like, what is the extent, or, or what.
• 6:22
  Sam Ghantous: Yeah, how far will we go for things?
• 6:25
  Sam Ghantous: To what extent do we want to
• 6:25
  Sam Ghantous: exhaust the earth for like, uh,
• 6:29
  Sam Ghantous: Yeah.
• 6:30
  Sam Ghantous: like better graphics, like better GPUs
• 6:30
  Sam Ghantous: that like, did this sound enables GPUs
• 6:37
  Sam Ghantous: to get better compute on ai, et cetera.
• 6:40
  Sam Ghantous: And so, uh, it tries to bring that
• 6:40
  Sam Ghantous: and make it a little more present
• 6:44
  Sam Ghantous: because it oftentimes quite.
• 6:47
  Sam Ghantous: In the distant and, and then also
• 6:47
  Sam Ghantous: covered up by marketing And uh, and
• 6:53
  Sam Ghantous: these stories about like better and
• 6:53
  Sam Ghantous: faster, or sorry, faster is always
• 6:59
  Sam Ghantous: better or more is always better.
• 7:00
  Sam Ghantous: And is that really a
• 7:00
  Sam Ghantous: narrative that holds up?
• 7:03
  Sam Ghantous: Sorry, I'm just gonna mute me.
• 7:05
  Sam Ghantous: No worries.
• 7:06
  Sam Ghantous: these notifications and everything.
• 7:08
  Sam Ghantous: I can't hear them if that
• 7:08
  Sam Ghantous: makes you feeling better,
• 7:10
  Sam Ghantous: No, but they're distracting me.
• 7:13
  Sam Ghantous: um, I, I mean, do you feel like, um,
• 7:13
  Sam Ghantous: I, I guess I feel like, uh, it's a
• 7:17
  Sam Ghantous: bit of, um, uh, what is the, what is
• 7:17
  Sam Ghantous: the, what is the phrase, uh, what.
• 7:23
  Sam Ghantous: No, it's more that like, uh, like the
• 7:23
  Sam Ghantous: technology pushes forward and then
• 7:28
  Sam Ghantous: it's kind of like rec conned into.
• 7:31
  Sam Ghantous: It's rec con, it's utility is
• 7:31
  Sam Ghantous: like rec conned into existence.
• 7:35
  Sam Ghantous: So it's like, we should make all this
• 7:35
  Sam Ghantous: stuff, we should dig up the earth.
• 7:37
  Sam Ghantous: We should make, we need
• 7:37
  Sam Ghantous: more, more, more, more.
• 7:39
  Sam Ghantous: And then like something good
• 7:39
  Sam Ghantous: happens or you know, quote
• 7:42
  Sam Ghantous: unquote good, that might be ai.
• 7:44
  Sam Ghantous: I, I guess I feel, you know, I don't know.
• 7:45
  Sam Ghantous: I mean, I guess I, I'm, I'm torn.
• 7:47
  Sam Ghantous: I'm.
• 7:47
  Sam Ghantous: I guess I, I feel like maybe, maybe it's
• 7:47
  Sam Ghantous: different for engineers where they're,
• 7:50
  Sam Ghantous: they're very clearly can see, like,
• 7:50
  Sam Ghantous: there are certain things I would like
• 7:52
  Sam Ghantous: to be able to do and we are bound by.
• 7:55
  Sam Ghantous: Um, I, I see the VR is like, a
• 7:55
  Sam Ghantous: good, is like a good example.
• 7:58
  Sam Ghantous: Like there are just enhancements, um,
• 7:58
  Sam Ghantous: enhancements with like lens technology
• 8:02
  Sam Ghantous: that we do not have to do things with,
• 8:02
  Sam Ghantous: you know, immersive reality that we
• 8:07
  Sam Ghantous: would like to, or battery storage.
• 8:08
  Sam Ghantous: You can see like, oh, if we, you
• 8:08
  Sam Ghantous: know, if we had this or that.
• 8:11
  Sam Ghantous: But I, I, I guess I, I, at the same
• 8:11
  Sam Ghantous: time I'm like, I also feel like, um.
• 8:16
  Sam Ghantous: Those are, those are kind of explained
• 8:16
  Sam Ghantous: like after the fact, like the sand's
• 8:19
  Sam Ghantous: already out of the earth at that point.
• 8:21
  Sam Ghantous: It's not like we do like
• 8:21
  Sam Ghantous: this research phase.
• 8:22
  Sam Ghantous: We're like, okay, here's how much we
• 8:22
  Sam Ghantous: need and we should do this amount of
• 8:25
  Sam Ghantous: extraction and that amount of extraction.
• 8:27
  Sam Ghantous: It's kinda like, no, do the extraction
• 8:27
  Sam Ghantous: first and that, you know, that
• 8:30
  Sam Ghantous: engine's already running and then
• 8:30
  Sam Ghantous: we'll figure out what we're gonna
• 8:32
  Sam Ghantous: use it for, use it for afterwards.
• 8:34
  Sam Ghantous: Um, but yeah.
• 8:36
  Sam Ghantous: I think you're bringing up another kind
• 8:36
  Sam Ghantous: of sentiment I was trying to sneak in
• 8:39
  Sam Ghantous: with this work, which is like this Yeah.
• 8:41
  Sam Ghantous: This sense of like guilty
• 8:41
  Sam Ghantous: pleasure or uncertainty that comes
• 8:44
  Sam Ghantous: with like, I mean, like, yeah.
• 8:46
  Sam Ghantous: I'm not saying I'm some standing
• 8:46
  Sam Ghantous: on some moral high ground.
• 8:50
  Sam Ghantous: I, I'm struggling with the like
• 8:50
  Sam Ghantous: temptations both for new things and for.
• 8:56
  Sam Ghantous: Fascinating things, but also like
• 8:56
  Sam Ghantous: trying to like not look at my phone, you
• 9:00
  Sam Ghantous: Yeah.
• 9:00
  Sam Ghantous: Yeah.
• 9:00
  Sam Ghantous: bit more.
• 9:01
  Sam Ghantous: And I think that's something
• 9:01
  Sam Ghantous: we all struggle with.
• 9:02
  Sam Ghantous: Like what, what we'll give and what, yeah.
• 9:05
  Sam Ghantous: Trying to find a kind of artistic
• 9:05
  Sam Ghantous: language for maybe dealing with that.
• 9:10
  Sam Ghantous: call it a kind of double bind.
• 9:12
  Sam Ghantous: Like you, you know, sometimes
• 9:12
  Sam Ghantous: that something is happening behind
• 9:16
  Sam Ghantous: the scenes, but you do it anyway.
• 9:20
  Sam Ghantous: the other thing you're mentioning is
• 9:20
  Sam Ghantous: also, yeah, I mean, I think there's.
• 9:24
  Sam Ghantous: Something to be said about the
• 9:24
  Sam Ghantous: capabilities we're able to achieve
• 9:28
  Sam Ghantous: technologically, but then the
• 9:28
  Sam Ghantous: money that like has put down on
• 9:31
  Sam Ghantous: the table to make it happen or to
• 9:33
  Sam Ghantous: Yeah.
• 9:33
  Sam Ghantous: keep, keep that whole
• 9:33
  Sam Ghantous: machine turning in a way.
• 9:36
  Sam Ghantous: Do you feel like your, um, your background
• 9:36
  Sam Ghantous: in architecture makes you, um, I
• 9:42
  Sam Ghantous: don't know, cognizant of constraints?
• 9:44
  Sam Ghantous: You know, I, I was talking
• 9:44
  Sam Ghantous: to someone another.
• 9:47
  Sam Ghantous: Architect and he was telling me that
• 9:47
  Sam Ghantous: like, you know, for that, that line
• 9:50
  Sam Ghantous: 2040 project, like the amount of steel
• 9:50
  Sam Ghantous: that would be required if that came into
• 9:54
  Sam Ghantous: existence is like more steel than like
• 9:54
  Sam Ghantous: currently, currently exists on the planet.
• 9:59
  Sam Ghantous: And so you just like put this idea
• 9:59
  Sam Ghantous: on paper and you pay your consultants
• 10:02
  Sam Ghantous: and you pay your architecture firm
• 10:02
  Sam Ghantous: and you do all these renders, but
• 10:04
  Sam Ghantous: like is totally unmoored from like
• 10:04
  Sam Ghantous: the actual like lived constraints
• 10:08
  Sam Ghantous: of being on being on the planet.
• 10:10
  Sam Ghantous: So yeah.
• 10:11
  Sam Ghantous: I'm just wondering is like, did
• 10:11
  Sam Ghantous: is, is that idea of constraints,
• 10:13
  Sam Ghantous: is that something that, um.
• 10:15
  Sam Ghantous: I don't know, was informed by
• 10:15
  Sam Ghantous: your, your background or your
• 10:17
  Sam Ghantous: interest in in architecture.
• 10:20
  Sam Ghantous: No, I.
• 10:21
  Sam Ghantous: It's okay.
• 10:22
  Sam Ghantous: I might be imputing this.
• 10:23
  Sam Ghantous: no, no.
• 10:24
  Sam Ghantous: I mean, I think it's a, it's a fair
• 10:24
  Sam Ghantous: assumption, but I think maybe that
• 10:26
  Sam Ghantous: was, I mean, maybe there's something
• 10:26
  Sam Ghantous: about constraints that not fit in so
• 10:31
  Sam Ghantous: much in, in, in that kind of, uh, and
• 10:31
  Sam Ghantous: maybe stand outside of that training.
• 10:34
  Sam Ghantous: And maybe this is why I'm an artist.
• 10:36
  Sam Ghantous: It's like I feel less found.
• 10:38
  Sam Ghantous: I, and I recognize maybe I'm, I'm
• 10:38
  Sam Ghantous: talking about that sort of creative
• 10:41
  Sam Ghantous: register and I think you're talking
• 10:41
  Sam Ghantous: about it at a kind of like conceptual
• 10:44
  Sam Ghantous: register of how we see our world a way.
• 10:50
  Sam Ghantous: Yeah.
• 10:50
  Sam Ghantous: I feel like I, I, I'm just, maybe,
• 10:50
  Sam Ghantous: maybe the constraints part is not the
• 10:54
  Sam Ghantous: most thing I relate to immediately.
• 10:57
  Sam Ghantous: No.
• 10:58
  Sam Ghantous: Yeah, no worries.
• 10:58
  Sam Ghantous: I, I find
• 10:59
  Sam Ghantous: Um.
• 10:59
  Sam Ghantous: helpful, but they're not the things
• 10:59
  Sam Ghantous: that I, I, I relate to immediately.
• 11:03
  Sam Ghantous: Yeah.
• 11:04
  Sam Ghantous: Um, for this particular piece, like
• 11:04
  Sam Ghantous: process wise, um, can you tell me about
• 11:08
  Sam Ghantous: like the do do, do, do, do your ideas
• 11:08
  Sam Ghantous: like, um, are you coming across things
• 11:15
  Sam Ghantous: that you see or read in the world?
• 11:16
  Sam Ghantous: You mentioned like, you know,
• 11:16
  Sam Ghantous: coming across this Chinese sand drr.
• 11:20
  Sam Ghantous: Or, you know, sort of seeing,
• 11:20
  Sam Ghantous: um, you know, sand traps in golf.
• 11:23
  Sam Ghantous: I'm just curious, like from a, uh,
• 11:23
  Sam Ghantous: from a conception, because it's also,
• 11:26
  Sam Ghantous: you know, it's a, a linear piece.
• 11:27
  Sam Ghantous: And so, you know, and there's different
• 11:27
  Sam Ghantous: elements to it in terms of the, you
• 11:30
  Sam Ghantous: know, the disembodied voices, this
• 11:30
  Sam Ghantous: dialogue between these two different
• 11:34
  Sam Ghantous: characters set against like, you
• 11:34
  Sam Ghantous: know, this like multi-stage imagery.
• 11:37
  Sam Ghantous: But yeah, process-wise, like where did
• 11:37
  Sam Ghantous: this project, kind of like, what was the,
• 11:40
  Sam Ghantous: the initial seed or, uh, you know, seed of
• 11:40
  Sam Ghantous: inception for, for this particular work?
• 11:45
  Sam Ghantous: I, I think it's a material and, and
• 11:45
  Sam Ghantous: actually there was like a project
• 11:49
  Sam Ghantous: before it, which was like discovering
• 11:49
  Sam Ghantous: these silicon wafers, which is how
• 11:53
  Sam Ghantous: I produce most of these prints or
• 11:53
  Sam Ghantous: all of these prints, and wondering
• 11:56
  Sam Ghantous: like, really, what is this material?
• 11:58
  Sam Ghantous: Because I don't think
• 11:58
  Sam Ghantous: of myself as a kind of.
• 12:00
  Sam Ghantous: Guy that has any relationship to hardware.
• 12:01
  Sam Ghantous: Actually,
• 12:02
  Sam Ghantous: Yeah.
• 12:03
  Sam Ghantous: scares me.
• 12:03
  Sam Ghantous: Like I'm, I'm, I'm really in the screen
• 12:03
  Sam Ghantous: my laptop, like making something.
• 12:11
  Sam Ghantous: And so I, I was printing on this
• 12:11
  Sam Ghantous: material, but like really struggling
• 12:14
  Sam Ghantous: to understand everything about it.
• 12:16
  Sam Ghantous: One for one, like, you know, I get
• 12:16
  Sam Ghantous: this thing called silicon wafer.
• 12:21
  Sam Ghantous: Is this whole thing a chip?
• 12:22
  Sam Ghantous: No.
• 12:22
  Sam Ghantous: Like, it has hundreds of
• 12:22
  Sam Ghantous: chips, but how does it.
• 12:25
  Sam Ghantous: How is that produced?
• 12:26
  Sam Ghantous: So really just like digging into that
• 12:26
  Sam Ghantous: and putting myself in an uncomfortable
• 12:29
  Sam Ghantous: position and then recognizing this kind
• 12:29
  Sam Ghantous: of this, this question I keep coming
• 12:36
  Sam Ghantous: back to, but finding it in this context,
• 12:36
  Sam Ghantous: which is like, oh, it's like it's
• 12:40
  Sam Ghantous: this material, it's this material that
• 12:40
  Sam Ghantous: become, that like enables the digital,
• 12:46
  Sam Ghantous: but also enables this golf course is
• 12:46
  Sam Ghantous: a really strange kind of coincidence.
• 12:51
  Sam Ghantous: And so I was.
• 12:53
  Sam Ghantous: Sam then became this kind of central
• 12:53
  Sam Ghantous: element that I, I keep stumbling across
• 12:58
  Sam Ghantous: because I, I think one of the things I
• 12:58
  Sam Ghantous: try to get across in the video is how
• 13:01
  Sam Ghantous: many different states it can take one.
• 13:03
  Sam Ghantous: As a kind of industrial pro Well, yeah.
• 13:06
  Sam Ghantous: As an industrial product.
• 13:07
  Sam Ghantous: Sure.
• 13:08
  Sam Ghantous: It can be like granule, it can
• 13:08
  Sam Ghantous: be this quartz crystal if, again,
• 13:11
  Sam Ghantous: naturally is formed in a different way.
• 13:13
  Sam Ghantous: Uh, I talk about that.
• 13:14
  Sam Ghantous: You know, you put it with cement
• 13:14
  Sam Ghantous: and water, it becomes concrete.
• 13:18
  Sam Ghantous: Uh, you can make silicone out of it.
• 13:20
  Sam Ghantous: You can make.
• 13:21
  Sam Ghantous: I think it's found like in toothpaste
• 13:21
  Sam Ghantous: and like, and all these strange things.
• 13:24
  Sam Ghantous: So it's these changes in states of
• 13:24
  Sam Ghantous: matter made this like sand, this
• 13:29
  Sam Ghantous: just giant thing that had these many
• 13:29
  Sam Ghantous: stories that I was coming across and
• 13:33
  Sam Ghantous: as I was discovering these stories,
• 13:33
  Sam Ghantous: I was just collecting lots of things.
• 13:37
  Sam Ghantous: So that's part of the process as
• 13:37
  Sam Ghantous: well, like whether it's collecting
• 13:40
  Sam Ghantous: model 3D models and other contexts.
• 13:42
  Sam Ghantous: So in this case just videos
• 13:42
  Sam Ghantous: and, and, and photos of just.
• 13:47
  Sam Ghantous: The labs that they make wafers in.
• 13:49
  Sam Ghantous: For instance, the woman in the
• 13:49
  Sam Ghantous: dunes, if you know this film, this
• 13:54
  Sam Ghantous: Japanese film, I love this one.
• 13:55
  Sam Ghantous: Um, and then in this process of
• 13:55
  Sam Ghantous: collecting, it's always trying to find
• 14:00
  Sam Ghantous: a kind of, um, what, what are the edges
• 14:00
  Sam Ghantous: between these elements with conception,
• 14:07
  Sam Ghantous: but also just very like materially and
• 14:07
  Sam Ghantous: visually like, and so this is where this.
• 14:11
  Sam Ghantous: Building up or eroding of, of images,
• 14:11
  Sam Ghantous: moving images on top of one another came
• 14:17
  Sam Ghantous: about, um, printing on the wafers kind of
• 14:17
  Sam Ghantous: continued through as something that was
• 14:25
  Sam Ghantous: there from before, from the beginning.
• 14:27
  Sam Ghantous: This
• 14:27
  Sam Ghantous: Right.
• 14:27
  Sam Ghantous: project.
• 14:28
  Sam Ghantous: Right, right.
• 14:29
  Sam Ghantous: Yeah.
• 14:29
  Sam Ghantous: I mean that printing on the wafers,
• 14:29
  Sam Ghantous: that effect is definitely present
• 14:33
  Sam Ghantous: in the, in the video work as well.
• 14:35
  Sam Ghantous: Like kind of the paying attention to
• 14:35
  Sam Ghantous: like foreground and the background,
• 14:38
  Sam Ghantous: like simul simultaneously.
• 14:40
  Sam Ghantous: I mean, I was also interested like
• 14:40
  Sam Ghantous: the, the, the, um, like presenting
• 14:43
  Sam Ghantous: sand as a, um, as a site of leisure.
• 14:46
  Sam Ghantous: Um, like, you know, golf
• 14:46
  Sam Ghantous: is a leisure sport and.
• 14:48
  Sam Ghantous: It's always biking down, cycling down
• 14:48
  Sam Ghantous: a sand dune or skiing down a sand
• 14:53
  Sam Ghantous: dune or, um, and, uh, or seeing those,
• 14:53
  Sam Ghantous: um, those beaches, where's the, uh,
• 14:57
  Sam Ghantous: that palm frond, um, that palm frond?
• 15:00
  Sam Ghantous: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 15:02
  Sam Ghantous: I mean there's, uh, you know, again, it's
• 15:02
  Sam Ghantous: meant to be like a place where you spend
• 15:05
  Sam Ghantous: time and this transformation of this,
• 15:05
  Sam Ghantous: like, you know, this site of leisure and
• 15:09
  Sam Ghantous: this like a site of like productivity
• 15:09
  Sam Ghantous: or a site of technological advancement.
• 15:13
  Sam Ghantous: This like transmutation of, of
• 15:13
  Sam Ghantous: sand from one object to another.
• 15:16
  Sam Ghantous: I mean, you're totally right.
• 15:16
  Sam Ghantous: I, I just don't.
• 15:17
  Sam Ghantous: Like, as someone who sits on the
• 15:17
  Sam Ghantous: computer all day, like I definitely
• 15:20
  Sam Ghantous: do not spend a lot of time thinking
• 15:20
  Sam Ghantous: about like the hardware, the
• 15:22
  Sam Ghantous: hardware, the hardware itself.
• 15:25
  Sam Ghantous: Um, so you're certainly
• 15:25
  Sam Ghantous: encouraging me to, to think more.
• 15:28
  Sam Ghantous: Please, please run.
• 15:29
  Sam Ghantous: So I don't have to think
• 15:29
  Sam Ghantous: about the hardware existing.
• 15:33
  Sam Ghantous: I'm, I'm think one of the works I'm
• 15:33
  Sam Ghantous: trying to think about now is like,
• 15:37
  Sam Ghantous: maybe I should just make a chip
• 15:37
  Sam Ghantous: that runs at the scale of deep time.
• 15:42
  Sam Ghantous: Like could hello world, take hundreds
• 15:42
  Sam Ghantous: of millions of years to print
• 15:47
  Sam Ghantous: Yeah.
• 15:48
  Sam Ghantous: would a chip look like?
• 15:49
  Sam Ghantous: Like to, like, maybe it would have to
• 15:49
  Sam Ghantous: be like really thick and just have like.
• 15:54
  Sam Ghantous: A really long path to take to just
• 15:54
  Sam Ghantous: print this one thing, like, I don't
• 15:57
  Sam Ghantous: Oh right.
• 15:58
  Sam Ghantous: something like a delivery at
• 15:58
  Sam Ghantous: the speed of geological time.
• 16:03
  Sam Ghantous: Right, because like so much of
• 16:03
  Sam Ghantous: chip design is like trying to
• 16:05
  Sam Ghantous: like, like put things in the right.
• 16:08
  Sam Ghantous: I, I'm, I, I'm I, this obviously a
• 16:08
  Sam Ghantous: simple, a gross simplification, but
• 16:13
  Sam Ghantous: there are like efficiencies to uh,
• 16:13
  Sam Ghantous: definitely efficiencies to like how
• 16:17
  Sam Ghantous: the board is constructed and how,
• 16:17
  Sam Ghantous: how much speed you can get out of it.
• 16:19
  Sam Ghantous: So if you worked against that, yeah.
• 16:21
  Sam Ghantous: This like long, like deliberately, like
• 16:21
  Sam Ghantous: deliberately expansive, uh, process
• 16:26
  Sam Ghantous: for like turning on the computer and
• 16:26
  Sam Ghantous: just getting that first command, like,
• 16:30
  Sam Ghantous: uh, first command, like out the door.
• 16:32
  Sam Ghantous: Um, um, can you tell me a bit about the,
• 16:32
  Sam Ghantous: um, uh, like how the, uh, the installation
• 16:38
  Sam Ghantous: piece, how people have, like, responded to
• 16:38
  Sam Ghantous: the video work with, to the installation?
• 16:43
  Sam Ghantous: And I, you know, obviously there's
• 16:43
  Sam Ghantous: this backstory you have about
• 16:45
  Sam Ghantous: having the piece like caught up in,
• 16:45
  Sam Ghantous: in customs, um, which, you know.
• 16:48
  Sam Ghantous: Definitely feels like one of these, like
• 16:48
  Sam Ghantous: not making this up, like could not think
• 16:52
  Sam Ghantous: of a, you know, more on the nose, on
• 16:52
  Sam Ghantous: the, no, on the nose, uh, like practical
• 16:58
  Sam Ghantous: operational coordination problem.
• 17:00
  Sam Ghantous: Um, but yeah, in terms of like
• 17:00
  Sam Ghantous: how you were thinking about the
• 17:02
  Sam Ghantous: installation and, um, what you wanted
• 17:02
  Sam Ghantous: people to kind of experience as they
• 17:06
  Sam Ghantous: were, um, in interfacing with the
• 17:06
  Sam Ghantous: multiple works around this same idea.
• 17:10
  Sam Ghantous: I'm not sure I have an
• 17:10
  Sam Ghantous: interesting answer for this.
• 17:12
  Sam Ghantous: Hmm.
• 17:13
  Sam Ghantous: Um.
• 17:15
  Sam Ghantous: Yeah, I mean, I guess I, I kind, I return
• 17:15
  Sam Ghantous: to this idea of like, states of matter.
• 17:18
  Sam Ghantous: How do you encounter these
• 17:18
  Sam Ghantous: different states of matter?
• 17:20
  Sam Ghantous: And I like to think of the, the
• 17:20
  Sam Ghantous: wafer works as portals and that's
• 17:24
  Sam Ghantous: why I also, these frames become
• 17:24
  Sam Ghantous: these important characters in them.
• 17:27
  Sam Ghantous: They're all made as, um, rings of sand in
• 17:27
  Sam Ghantous: my studio that I scan and then print out.
• 17:33
  Sam Ghantous: And so there's this kind of clearing
• 17:33
  Sam Ghantous: away of this dusty matter to reveal this.
• 17:39
  Sam Ghantous: Not quite otherworldly.
• 17:43
  Sam Ghantous: Scenario, but it's other worldly
• 17:43
  Sam Ghantous: presentation of our, our earth.
• 17:47
  Sam Ghantous: These images are like constructions
• 17:47
  Sam Ghantous: of, um, not re not constructions, but
• 17:52
  Sam Ghantous: uh, reappropriation of images by bot
• 17:52
  Sam Ghantous: and key characters have been erased and
• 17:57
  Sam Ghantous: replaced by, for instance, the Dubai, uh,
• 17:57
  Sam Ghantous: France, the Dubai Palm Island, Franz, um,
• 18:07
  Sam Ghantous: Dm. Trademark is trademark, so
• 18:09
  Sam Ghantous: There you go.
• 18:10
  Sam Ghantous: yeah.
• 18:10
  Sam Ghantous: the like, uh, lithography machine
• 18:10
  Sam Ghantous: that costs hundreds of millions
• 18:14
  Sam Ghantous: of dollars to and that, uh,
• 18:14
  Sam Ghantous: uh, print those actual laers.
• 18:19
  Sam Ghantous: And so I was seeing them as a kind of
• 18:19
  Sam Ghantous: series of portals this time around and,
• 18:23
  Sam Ghantous: and it's quite weird, and this is quite
• 18:23
  Sam Ghantous: different from how I usually present
• 18:30
  Sam Ghantous: and construct work, which tends to be a
• 18:30
  Sam Ghantous: much more environmental, like one that.
• 18:34
  Sam Ghantous: One is in the situation and
• 18:34
  Sam Ghantous: uses the software, sits at a
• 18:38
  Sam Ghantous: kind of furnishing that I made.
• 18:39
  Sam Ghantous: So that's what I'm
• 18:39
  Sam Ghantous: more, uh, familiar with.
• 18:42
  Sam Ghantous: But this time I'm treating
• 18:42
  Sam Ghantous: them really as Wall Works.
• 18:45
  Sam Ghantous: And instead the central
• 18:45
  Sam Ghantous: piece is the video, which is
• 18:49
  Sam Ghantous: a three channel, uh, video.
• 18:51
  Sam Ghantous: And, and because of that three channel
• 18:51
  Sam Ghantous: and them being strung together and
• 18:54
  Sam Ghantous: curving just a bit, they produce
• 18:54
  Sam Ghantous: this kind of like horizontality that
• 18:57
  Sam Ghantous: I was thinking of as horizon of the
• 18:57
  Sam Ghantous: earth again, as this thing that.
• 19:03
  Sam Ghantous: Is beneath us and, and turning and, and
• 19:03
  Sam Ghantous: kind of undergirds the whole, um, project.
• 19:08
  Sam Ghantous: And so it's, difficult for
• 19:08
  Sam Ghantous: me to talk about it 'cause
• 19:11
  Sam Ghantous: it's far, I don't wanna say
• 19:14
  Sam Ghantous: Perfect.
• 19:15
  Sam Ghantous: than usual, but a little more
• 19:17
  Sam Ghantous: Yeah.
• 19:18
  Sam Ghantous: environmental than
• 19:19
  Sam Ghantous: Yeah.
• 19:19
  Sam Ghantous: Yeah.
• 19:20
  Sam Ghantous: Um, you'd mentioned that, um,
• 19:20
  Sam Ghantous: in another interview that you
• 19:23
  Sam Ghantous: empathize with sand, I think.
• 19:25
  Sam Ghantous: Um, and, uh, I was curious if
• 19:25
  Sam Ghantous: you like being based in Zurich.
• 19:28
  Sam Ghantous: Do you miss, do you miss sand at all?
• 19:30
  Sam Ghantous: I, I mean, I, it is that, so, you
• 19:30
  Sam Ghantous: know, it's not, it's not part of your,
• 19:34
  Sam Ghantous: it's not part of the environment.
• 19:35
  Sam Ghantous: In which you currently are.
• 19:36
  Sam Ghantous: I live in Los Angeles, so like I do have
• 19:36
  Sam Ghantous: the optionality, both desert and beach
• 19:41
  Sam Ghantous: if I wanna get my hands on, on sand.
• 19:42
  Sam Ghantous: But yeah, as a, as a material like, you
• 19:42
  Sam Ghantous: know, you are quite, quite far from it.
• 19:46
  Sam Ghantous: So yeah.
• 19:46
  Sam Ghantous: I was just curious if
• 19:46
  Sam Ghantous: you have a personal, uh,
• 19:48
  Sam Ghantous: I was just at the beach for 10 days,
• 19:52
  Sam Ghantous: okay.
• 19:53
  Sam Ghantous: this is why we were, uh,
• 19:53
  Sam Ghantous: this is our vacation.
• 19:56
  Sam Ghantous: No, I don't, I don't miss it.
• 19:59
  Sam Ghantous: I think for me, maybe the thing that's
• 19:59
  Sam Ghantous: a little more poignant is like, um,
• 20:03
  Sam Ghantous: don't notice how much it travels.
• 20:06
  Sam Ghantous: growing up I, I moved around a lot and I
• 20:08
  Sam Ghantous: Yeah.
• 20:09
  Sam Ghantous: Yeah,
• 20:09
  Sam Ghantous: pull out of sand
• 20:10
  Sam Ghantous: yeah.
• 20:10
  Sam Ghantous: Yeah.
• 20:10
  Sam Ghantous: as well.
• 20:11
  Sam Ghantous: And culturally, there is some, I,
• 20:11
  Sam Ghantous: I don't say it that I relate to
• 20:14
  Sam Ghantous: it, but it's a kind of background
• 20:14
  Sam Ghantous: that is not surprising to me.
• 20:17
  Sam Ghantous: And so.
• 20:18
  Sam Ghantous: Maybe that's a little more
• 20:18
  Sam Ghantous: present for me somehow.
• 20:22
  Sam Ghantous: But then, you know, maybe, but maybe
• 20:22
  Sam Ghantous: what this project has done is like
• 20:25
  Sam Ghantous: helped me to recognize the way that.
• 20:27
  Sam Ghantous: A dust kind of accumulates around us and,
• 20:27
  Sam Ghantous: and b, how present sand is otherwise.
• 20:33
  Sam Ghantous: So that's been really interesting
• 20:33
  Sam Ghantous: and, and just how different sand is
• 20:37
  Sam Ghantous: in different places, which is pretty
• 20:37
  Sam Ghantous: dorky to say, but like when I was
• 20:40
  Sam Ghantous: at the beach just last week, I was
• 20:40
  Sam Ghantous: like, oh wow, like, it's so fine here.
• 20:44
  Sam Ghantous: Like it's
• 20:44
  Sam Ghantous: Yeah.
• 20:45
  Sam Ghantous: I don't know.
• 20:46
  Sam Ghantous: It, it's, it's really dumb, but it helped
• 20:46
  Sam Ghantous: me to see that material in a new way.
• 20:51
  Sam Ghantous: Um, yeah.
• 20:53
  Sam Ghantous: But then thinking about the
• 20:53
  Sam Ghantous: places I lived, you know.
• 20:56
  Sam Ghantous: On the one hand, there's this
• 20:56
  Sam Ghantous: kind of trope of it being
• 20:58
  Sam Ghantous: kind of tabular Raza, right?
• 20:59
  Sam Ghantous: Like sand is nothing there.
• 21:02
  Sam Ghantous: But you go camp in the desert, and I
• 21:02
  Sam Ghantous: remember the last day camping when I was
• 21:06
  Sam Ghantous: in middle school, we went in on a class
• 21:06
  Sam Ghantous: trip and I, you know, just had the sand,
• 21:11
  Sam Ghantous: or not sandbags, the sleeping bags out
• 21:11
  Sam Ghantous: in the desert up, like picked up my water
• 21:16
  Sam Ghantous: bottle and a scorpion was underneath it.
• 21:17
  Sam Ghantous: So it's never, nothing.
• 21:20
  Sam Ghantous: Is there
• 21:21
  Sam Ghantous: Yeah.
• 21:21
  Sam Ghantous: Yeah.
• 21:21
  Sam Ghantous: something, is there something,
• 21:21
  Sam Ghantous: was there a long time ago?
• 21:26
  Sam Ghantous: And that should be
• 21:26
  Sam Ghantous: applied to anywhere we go.
• 21:28
  Sam Ghantous: And I think that sounds
• 21:28
  Sam Ghantous: the case for Zurich too.
• 21:31
  Sam Ghantous: Yeah.
• 21:33
  Sam Ghantous: Yeah, that's a good point.
• 21:34
  Sam Ghantous: Um, let's see here.
• 21:35
  Sam Ghantous: Um, the, like the voices and the, and
• 21:35
  Sam Ghantous: the dialogue, um, did you script them
• 21:41
  Sam Ghantous: like in conversation with one another?
• 21:44
  Sam Ghantous: Um, or did like kind of one character
• 21:44
  Sam Ghantous: kind of sit in, uh, you know, it
• 21:47
  Sam Ghantous: did, um, did you develop like one
• 21:47
  Sam Ghantous: character at a time or you kind of
• 21:51
  Sam Ghantous: thinking about them in, in discourse?
• 21:53
  Sam Ghantous: Um, like from the, from the, from
• 21:53
  Sam Ghantous: the, from the beginning, but yeah.
• 21:56
  Sam Ghantous: Tell me a little bit
• 21:56
  Sam Ghantous: about those, those voices.
• 21:58
  Sam Ghantous: No, the, the, it was more conventionally
• 21:58
  Sam Ghantous: a kind of, um, not conventionally, but
• 22:02
  Sam Ghantous: like a more internal monologue that I,
• 22:02
  Sam Ghantous: I realized was an internal dialogue.
• 22:07
  Sam Ghantous: Again, what we was talking about
• 22:07
  Sam Ghantous: earlier about this kind of.
• 22:10
  Sam Ghantous: Uh, toggling between like guilt,
• 22:10
  Sam Ghantous: like, like knowing, be like in, in,
• 22:15
  Sam Ghantous: uh, pleasure and knowing better or
• 22:16
  Sam Ghantous: Right, right, right.
• 22:17
  Sam Ghantous: pleasure and guilt and, and
• 22:17
  Sam Ghantous: trying to find that in myself
• 22:20
  Sam Ghantous: and give it a kind of voice.
• 22:21
  Sam Ghantous: And that was actually the most
• 22:21
  Sam Ghantous: uncomfortable part was try and like
• 22:25
  Sam Ghantous: separate those two voices, somehow
• 22:25
  Sam Ghantous: give them a different And, and then,
• 22:30
  Sam Ghantous: you know, the struggle of also like,
• 22:30
  Sam Ghantous: how, how do you materialize that voice?
• 22:34
  Sam Ghantous: And so I ended up like, um.
• 22:37
  Sam Ghantous: Wanting to speak to some kind of
• 22:37
  Sam Ghantous: inner naivety or child like, which
• 22:44
  Sam Ghantous: is that this thing of like being
• 22:44
  Sam Ghantous: totally tempted and consumed by this
• 22:49
  Sam Ghantous: glowing device in front of me, that
• 22:49
  Sam Ghantous: produces things in a magical pace.
• 22:55
  Sam Ghantous: and so without many children in my life,
• 22:55
  Sam Ghantous: apart from my seven month old child,
• 23:01
  Sam Ghantous: I started using, uh, one of these, um.
• 23:05
  Sam Ghantous: Text to speech and speech to speech kind
• 23:05
  Sam Ghantous: of, uh, offerings of AI and exploring how
• 23:10
  Sam Ghantous: to coax like a kind of voice out of them.
• 23:14
  Sam Ghantous: And so, you know, you run into
• 23:14
  Sam Ghantous: interesting problems of like
• 23:18
  Sam Ghantous: attributing a kind of emotion to
• 23:18
  Sam Ghantous: text, uh, in, in these platforms or
• 23:22
  Sam Ghantous: in the one platform I ended up using.
• 23:25
  Sam Ghantous: And if you like, dial up anger all the
• 23:25
  Sam Ghantous: way, you just get like, I kind of like.
• 23:30
  Sam Ghantous: Real time meltdown
• 23:33
  Sam Ghantous: Yeah.
• 23:35
  Sam Ghantous: Um, and, and so that there was that
• 23:35
  Sam Ghantous: kind of, that that process itself was
• 23:39
  Sam Ghantous: kind of, kind of hard and interesting
• 23:39
  Sam Ghantous: and trying to find out where one
• 23:43
  Sam Ghantous: thought ends and one thought overlaps
• 23:43
  Sam Ghantous: with this internal, internal dialogue
• 23:49
  Sam Ghantous: that's expresses a kind of external one,
• 23:51
  Sam Ghantous: Hmm.
• 23:51
  Sam Ghantous: Yeah.
• 23:52
  Sam Ghantous: was part of the problem in it.
• 23:53
  Sam Ghantous: Yeah.
• 23:54
  Sam Ghantous: Uh, what comes next for the,
• 23:54
  Sam Ghantous: uh, what comes next for this
• 23:57
  Sam Ghantous: particular, this particular problem?
• 23:59
  Sam Ghantous: I, yeah, I have, I am like
• 23:59
  Sam Ghantous: drowning in so many ideas.
• 24:03
  Sam Ghantous: I mean, this is like, um, attention
• 24:03
  Sam Ghantous: towards geology, attention towards
• 24:07
  Sam Ghantous: the earth is a kind of new, territory
• 24:07
  Sam Ghantous: in the last couple of years.
• 24:11
  Sam Ghantous: And, and I, I feel like I'm just.
• 24:14
  Sam Ghantous: Overflowing with ideas, but really
• 24:14
  Sam Ghantous: needing to find resources and time
• 24:18
  Sam Ghantous: and to sort of work through them.
• 24:20
  Sam Ghantous: But I think I hinted at one, which is
• 24:20
  Sam Ghantous: I think they're a series of these, um,
• 24:25
  Sam Ghantous: slightly more, uh, let's say active or
• 24:25
  Sam Ghantous: software based or maybe architect like
• 24:30
  Sam Ghantous: software architectural based, uh, um,
• 24:30
  Sam Ghantous: efforts including like, um, two separate
• 24:37
  Sam Ghantous: games that might affect one another.
• 24:40
  Sam Ghantous: Right to think about the kind of
• 24:40
  Sam Ghantous: consequences of our actions on other
• 24:44
  Sam Ghantous: parts of the earth or, other communities.
• 24:50
  Sam Ghantous: Um, but equally just a lot of
• 24:50
  Sam Ghantous: sculptural ideas is start to bring
• 24:54
  Sam Ghantous: earths um, you know, active or, or,
• 24:54
  Sam Ghantous: um, computational elements together,
• 25:02
  Sam Ghantous: if that's a vague enough hint for
• 25:02
  Sam Ghantous: what might come in the future.
• 25:07
  Sam Ghantous: Yeah.
• 25:07
  Sam Ghantous: Yeah.
• 25:07
  Sam Ghantous: Cool.
• 25:08
  Sam Ghantous: I look forward to seeing what's next.
• 25:11
  Sam Ghantous: ,
• 25:11
  Sam Ghantous: Jamin Warren: All right.
• 25:11
  Sam Ghantous: That's it.
• 25:12
  Sam Ghantous: Thanks so much to Sam
• 25:12
  Sam Ghantous: for making time to chat.
• 25:15
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  Sam Ghantous: Thanks so much.
• 25:44
  Sam Ghantous: Cheers.