Latest / Karl and Crew / Separating Biblical Fact from Fiction with Dr. Jim Coakley & When Evil Masquerades as Good with Dr. John Koessler

Transcript

Separating Biblical Fact from Fiction with Dr. Jim Coakley & When Evil Masquerades as Good with Dr. John Koessler · Karl and Crew

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  S1: Broadcasting from Chicago, across North America and beyond. Come as
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  S1: you are an experienced guide, overcome what seems impossible and
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  S1: live as you never imagined. Start your morning with a laugh.
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  S2: Practical from the Bible. Tips and tricks to kill. Not tricks,
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  S2: but tips and tricks. Tips and tricks to kill. Tips
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  S2: and tricks.
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  S1: Delivering the truth daily.
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  S3: All of my attempts to, you know. Prop myself up
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  S3: with achievement and good works. But God wasn't impressed by that,
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  S3: even if other people were.
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  S2: The gospel changes everything.
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  S4: Freedom in Christ. Man, it's like that backpack of cement
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  S4: just falling to the ground.
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  S1: Now from the call of Hope Studios. This is Carl
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  S1: and Crew.
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  S3: We have to jump right into this because here is
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  S3: an interesting, fun fact. So many of the most beloved
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  S3: Bible verses that are commonly quoted aren't in the Bible
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  S3: at all. Doctor Jim Coakley joining us in studio professor
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  S3: here at Moody Bible Institute, you call them the Phantom Verses? Yes.
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  S3: Is that in the Bible? That's the subject of our conversation,
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  S3: Doctor Coakley, Phantom verses. Yes. Where did you come up
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  S3: with that one?
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  S5: Well, it's the idea that people think they're in the Bible,
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  S5: but they're not. So you look for them. Of course,
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  S5: you try to find them in a concordance and they're
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  S5: just there's no reference that kind of backs them up.
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  S5: And so we have a lot of different things like this.
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  S5: And again, there's nothing necessarily harmful about some of these,
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  S5: but some of them I think can be really bothersome
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  S5: if we don't really understand the full context. And that's
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  S5: really the the whole key.
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  S3: So I'm going to throw you a couple. These definitely
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  S3: came in on Facebook. One of the ones, and I've
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  S3: heard this and I don't know where I've heard it
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  S3: attributed to, but people will often say cleanliness is next
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  S3: to godliness. Is there any where is that in Scripture? One.
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  S3: And if not, is there anything like it? Where did
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  S3: that come from?
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  S5: No kindliness is next to godliness is really from John Wesley.
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  S5: Not in a scripture. Okay, so it kind of follows through.
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  S5: I mean, you kind of know that if you have
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  S5: a good, organized, well designed life and you're, you know,
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  S5: you're hygienic as well, uh, you know, you're going to,
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  S5: things are going to go better for you than if
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  S5: you have halitosis or bad breath. Uh, you know, you're
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  S5: going to be turning off people. And so the idea
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  S5: that cleanliness is next to godliness, I mean, probably you
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  S5: can see how they're, they're wrapping in a number of
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  S5: elements like holiness from the book of Leviticus and all
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  S5: these things. And they're just kind of making it into
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  S5: a pithy statement. But the core essence of the statement
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  S5: itself does not exist in the Bible.
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  S3: So don't quote that when you're trying to get your
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  S3: teenager to clean their room. No, no. You know, it
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  S3: says cleanliness is next. No, it doesn't exactly say that.
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  S3: What about this one? I hear people say this. This
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  S3: too shall pass.
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  S5: Yeah. Actually, there's a funny story for those of us
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  S5: in Chicago area, because John or Mike Ditka, when he
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  S5: was let go as a coach, he got after his interview,
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  S5: he was kind of in tears and stuff and he said, yeah,
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  S5: the scripture say this too shall pass. And the idea
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  S5: that his his time has, has now ended as coach
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  S5: of the Chicago Bears. And so, you know, he said
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  S5: he was quoting the scripture. And a lot of people
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  S5: think that that's in the in the Bible. It really
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  S5: comes from a Persian proverb, the idea that, you know, again,
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  S5: time heals all wounds or something similar to that. And
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  S5: so the idea is, you know, really we have to
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  S5: realize that that particular concept may be touched upon in
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  S5: small ways, but it's not really as stated in the Bible.
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  S3: So I know that one of your great passions is
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  S3: to help people read and understand the Word of God.
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  S3: One of the books we've featured often 14 Fresh Ways
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  S3: to enjoy the Bible. What is the, I guess the
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  S3: source of some some of these common misunderstandings. Is it
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  S3: a biblical illiteracy? Is it just kind of a blurring
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  S3: of the lines? Is it when things kind of sound
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  S3: King James Version esque and the language, we think, oh yeah,
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  S3: that must be biblical?
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  S5: No, I think you hit on a lot of them.
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  S5: I mean, one of them is just pure ignorance and
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  S5: the idea of biblical illiteracy. And so sometimes people can
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  S5: kind of yank our our chains by saying, hey, turn
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  S5: in the book of Hezekiah, or second hesitations or even
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  S5: some small things. Jonah and the whale. Well, the Bible
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  S5: doesn't mention whale. It's a great fish. And so we're
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  S5: just kind of illiterate on a number of kind of fundamental,
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  S5: foundational kind of fundamental truths. But the idea is some
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  S5: of them sound so are so close. They're, they're, they
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  S5: sound proverbial. They almost sound like they could come from
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  S5: the book of Proverbs. And sadly, some of them confirm
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  S5: our biases. So if we have certain things that we
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  S5: already are predisposed to believe, and we hear something that
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  S5: kind of falls in line with that, we can kind
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  S5: of quote that and use that as support as another
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  S5: support chain to kind of hold up our arguments.
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  S3: Yeah. And I've noticed that some of these are often
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  S3: uttered in attempt to make sense of the world or
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  S3: to make sense of pain. Like like the this too
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  S3: shall pass. Yes, it feels very comforting, like the idea
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  S3: that how it is right now isn't how it will
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  S3: always be. And there's, there's. You can certainly build a
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  S3: biblical case for the some of those ideas. But we
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  S3: often want to offer comfort. And so these, these little
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  S3: sayings feel meaningful.
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  S5: Yeah. Because, I mean, we want to condense a lot
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  S5: of things right quickly to get to a pithy statement
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  S5: to get right to the, the really the question or
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  S5: the issue at hand. And so it's understandable completely on
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  S5: a human level why we want to do that. Well,
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  S5: let's open our Bibles to let's read a whole chapter,
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  S5: know when we can just kind of quickly give out
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  S5: a line. Some of these are, again, you know, like
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  S5: the idea the wolf or the lion shall lay down
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  S5: with the lamb. Well, you look at it and the
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  S5: actual passage says, it's the wolf shall lie down with
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  S5: the lamb. But yet we have our image. Sometimes we
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  S5: see it on Facebook and other things. We see a
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  S5: book of Isaiah kind of verse, and it talks about
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  S5: lion and the lamb kind of lying down in the
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  S5: field next to each other. Well, you know, again, there's
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  S5: nothing wrong because it's a wild, ferocious animal, but it's
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  S5: not really the lion. It's the wolf.
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  S3: Yeah. Doctor Jim Coakley with us right now. So coming
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  S3: up let's talk about some basic principles to read and
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  S3: study the word. Some of these may be review for
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  S3: those of you who've been reading the Bible for some time,
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  S3: but I want you to listen carefully. We want to
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  S3: make sure that we are reading and studying and getting
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  S3: the most out of the word and the most word
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  S3: into us so that we don't make these mistakes, and
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  S3: so that we can help lead others who may be
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  S3: well intentioned in some of the things that they're saying,
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  S3: but just need a slight correction. More with Doctor Coakley coming.
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  S1: Up, standing on the Rock each and every day, you're
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  S1: listening to Carl and crew.
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  S3: Does the Bible say that? And if it does, does
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  S3: it mean what it's commonly applied or intended to mean
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  S3: or used at these popular phrases? This too shall pass.
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  S3: God helps those who help themselves don't judge. Only God
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  S3: can judge me. God knows my heart. I hear a
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  S3: lot of these. Doctor Jim Coakley is going to help
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  S3: us this morning. Let's talk about. before we get into
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  S3: some of these passages, some principles that can guide us
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  S3: and make sure that we're not aiming for perfect understanding
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  S3: every day of your Bible reading, there are going to
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  S3: be times where you're you're not totally clear on what's
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  S3: being said.
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  S5: That's why the Bible is wonderful because it allows even
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  S5: kind of neophytes or basic babes kind of understanding things.
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  S5: And yes, you have to read it and reread it,
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  S5: and then you get more each time you come through it.
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  S5: So that's the beauty of God's word. It's something you
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  S5: can never exhaust. I kind of chide that when I
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  S5: get to heaven, I want to be in the advanced
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  S5: Bible classes, so I want to have all the good
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  S5: basic stuff down now so I can get into the
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  S5: to the higher classes up there. But because we're going
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  S5: to still be learning in heaven. Yeah. Believe it or not,
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  S5: the Word of God lasts forever. And so we're going
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  S5: to be hearing about it for all of eternity. And
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  S5: so God is embedded so much there. But, you know,
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  S5: this is really a part of a whole course. I
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  S5: teach here in the undergrad at Moody Bible Institute, you know,
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  S5: Bible study methods, hermeneutics, as we call it, the art
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  S5: and science of Bible interpretation. Number one has got to
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  S5: be you got to pay attention to context. You know,
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  S5: we often have this this statement, you know, a text
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  S5: without a context is a text without context is a
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  S5: pretext for a proof text. Oh, okay. And so that's
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  S5: the kind of the thing there. And so we have
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  S5: to read the, not just the verse. And that's some
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  S5: of the, the problems we read slivers of passages or
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  S5: just even a verse itself. And we pull that out.
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  S5: We read it on somebody's Facebook feed or social media feed,
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  S5: and we never really take the time to read it
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  S5: in the setting in which it was found. So those
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  S5: verses are in a neighborhood. So you got to get
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  S5: to know not just that one verse, but the neighborhood
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  S5: all around that verse. Number two is find out what
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  S5: did it mean to the original audience before you quickly
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  S5: try to see what does it mean to me today? Yeah.
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  S5: And so this we have to understand that not all
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  S5: the Bible is written directly to us now. It's written
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  S5: for us, but it's not always written directly for us.
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  S5: There's a lot of the Old Testament was written to
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  S5: ethnic national Israel. And so we can't necessarily claim everything
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  S5: for application and our purposes today. And then also another
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  S5: one is let the clear interpret the unclear. And sometimes
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  S5: we have to then compare scripture and say, what is
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  S5: it that this other passages have to contribute to this conversation?
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  S5: And this is really more of a topical study, but
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  S5: it helps to call what we say kind of consult
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  S5: the biblical map, make sure that when you apply a
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  S5: verse that the rest of the Bible lines up with that.
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  S3: Because there's quite a few passages, there's so many layers
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  S3: to this. When you start looking at looking at these
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  S3: commonly misquoted or, or basically flat out invented passages, but
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  S3: there are some common ones that are they're there, but
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  S3: they're misapplied or misread a big one. God won't give
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  S3: you more than you can handle. And this is often
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  S3: told to people who are going through great suffering. And
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  S3: the idea is, if God's given it to you, if
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  S3: God's allowed you to bear this, then you can handle
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  S3: it like you have the strength. He wouldn't put more
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  S3: on you than you could possibly bear. What do you
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  S3: say on that one?
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  S5: There's, again, there's partial truth to these things because certainly
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  S5: we know God's grace is sufficient for us to endure
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  S5: all sorts of hardships. So we know God's grace is there.
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  S5: But to say that God won't give you more than
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  S5: you can bear, I think, is overstating really what the
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  S5: text says. Now it is in the context of Corinthians.
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  S5: God will make in temptation a way of escape. Yes.
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  S5: And so when you're tempted, if you find that escape hatch,
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  S5: God's already provided that for you to go through. Now,
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  S5: he's not saying that you won't undergo all sorts of
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  S5: tremendous suffering and pain and agony, because Paul says this
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  S5: when he says this in this is in second Corinthians
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  S5: chapter one, verse eight. We do not want you to
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  S5: be unaware. So he goes on, for we were so
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  S5: utterly burdened beyond our strength that we despaired even of
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  S5: life itself. So I think at that moment, I don't
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  S5: think that verse that, you know, God won't give you
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  S5: more than you can handle. Paul says, I can't handle this.
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  S5: I was so despairing even of life itself. And so.
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  S5: But there was no temptation there. It's just saying what
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  S5: we need. The world needs to see exhibit A of
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  S5: what happens when we see believers under pressure and what the.
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  S5: What did they default back to? Did they go back
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  S5: to trust or did they, you know, look for, again,
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  S5: mechanisms to cope and to, you know, kind of mitigate
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  S5: the pain and the agony or just totally try to
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  S5: skirt all around it? Or do they remain under that
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  S5: pressure and let God's grace continue to minister to them?
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  S3: So what would be a more accurate like so instead
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  S3: of God won't give you more than you can handle?
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  S3: What would be a more accurate way of saying that?
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  S3: I'm trying to think in real time. Uh, God will
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  S3: always give you the grace is like, yeah, God will
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  S3: always give.
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  S5: You the grace. Yeah. God will always give you the
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  S5: grace to do the right thing at that time.
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  S3: Oh, okay. I like.
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  S5: That. And so I guess, you know, and this is
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  S5: what I love, this is again, trying to apply the
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  S5: word of God that does, in a sense, gives credence
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  S5: to the application. I mean, wants to look for application
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  S5: but gives again, full dependence upon. There's a context here
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  S5: and we don't want to overstate. We want to overwrite
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  S5: a check. We can't we don't want to write checks
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  S5: that we that God can't cash. Yeah. And this is
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  S5: really what we're trying to do because people get really
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  S5: discouraged if we over promise things. Train up a child
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  S5: in the way you should go. When he's old, he
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  S5: won't depart from it. Parents will then take that to
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  S5: the spiritual bank and say, well, I raised my child
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  S5: in church and they're not. They're going to come back
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  S5: someday because God said it. Well, that's in the book
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  S5: of Proverbs. That's a genre of again, these are proverbial things,
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  S5: generally true, but they're not universally true.
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  S3: Principles. Not promises.
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  S5: Right. Principles, not promises.
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  S3: Yeah. Now, what about this one? Jeremiah 2911. This one
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  S3: is oh, and it's such a beautiful passage that I
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  S3: know the plans I have for you, plans to give you,
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  S3: to prosper you, not to harm you, to give you
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  S3: hope in the future. That's what I have from memory.
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  S3: So forgive me if I've not quoted it perfectly, but
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  S3: to speak to that one.
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  S5: Well, first of all, let me confession. When I was
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  S5: a pastor, I wrote birthday cards to every one of
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  S5: my church. In one year, I had this verse plastered
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  S5: on every birthday card that I sent to everybody in
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  S5: the congregation for their birthday, and I now realize that
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  S5: that was wrong. So again, well-meaning people, people at graduation time,
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  S5: they see this on a on a card they want
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  S5: to give. And though it sounds really, really wonderful because
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  S5: God does generally want success for his for his children,
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  S5: but really what this is, if you read it in context,
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  S5: this is talking about the Israelites in Babylon. And so
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  S5: their sentence has been served. They served their 70 years
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  S5: in exile. My plans for you are to prosper you.
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  S5: So you're going to go back. But it's not saying
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  S5: every time you know everything is going to turn out
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  S5: hunky dory, everything's going to be fine in this life
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  S5: because sometimes we deal with the consequences, or we just
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  S5: live in a fallen world and things are not going
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  S5: to be good.
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  S3: Okay, this one just came in by text message. What
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  S3: about I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me?
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  S5: Well, You're an athlete, Ellie, aren't you? You've probably heard this. Well, I.
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  S3: Was at one point in time that might be generous
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  S3: to apply it to my current day state.
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  S5: But this is very, very common. I remember back in Sydney, Australia,
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  S5: in the Olympics, a diver, Laura Wilkinson, if I recall
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  S5: her name, right, every time she would do a platform dive.
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  S5: And these are really, really challenging dives to do. She
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  S5: would you could hear her recite when she's up there.
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  S5: I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
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  S5: And she won a gold medal.
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  S3: Wow.
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  S5: And so you think, oh, that must be the secret.
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  S5: You've got to use this as a kind of a
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  S5: a way to kind of get what you want. But
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  S5: that's not talking about, again, sports or winning gold medals. Hey,
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  S5: if I were to go up Mount Everest, hey, I
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  S5: can ski down Mount Everest. You know, I can do
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  S5: all things through Christ. I'd probably tumble in the first
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  S5: five feet and, you know, be a mess. By the
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  S5: time I would even get halfway down the first kind
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  S5: of bend. And so I can't do all things. Now,
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  S5: what Paul is saying in the context of Philippians four
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  S5: is when he's doing ministry for God. God will provide
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  S5: everything he needs. I can do everything that God wants
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  S5: me to do for his glory. And so it's not
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  S5: like saying I can become an Olympic athlete or I can,
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  S5: you know, you know, get a million bucks by the
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  S5: time I'm 30 or whatever. You know, I can't. You know,
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  S5: those are the things that you can't promise. But if
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  S5: you're in ministry, I can do all things through Christ
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  S5: who strengthens me, that God puts you in front of you,
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  S5: in front of you.
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  S3: Okay. Now, this is one that I hear all the time.
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  S3: And so this I want to tackle this one because
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  S3: I often hear in services, and it can be a
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  S3: powerful prayer meeting or a worship service. And people will say, well,
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  S3: we're 2 or 3 are gathered. And the idea being
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  S3: that since we are gathered together, whenever God's people gather,
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  S3: there's an anointing, there's a blessing, there's a promise of
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  S3: his presence. Uh, again, the principle of it. Certainly God is.
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  S3: God is with us. God's with me. God's with you, right?
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  S3: But this idea that 2 or 3 are gathered, I
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  S3: have that one is taken out of context quite a bit.
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  S5: Oh, especially when you have small gatherings where you expect
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  S5: more people to come. You say, well, okay, we got
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  S5: 2 or 3 here. That's fine. That's where 2 or
• 15:58
  S5: 3 are gathered. You know, God's in our midst. Really.
• 16:00
  S5: If you look at that whole passage in Matthew 18,
• 16:03
  S5: it's really talking about doing something very, very challenging, which
• 16:05
  S5: is discipline, restoring and erring brother or sister. And I
• 16:09
  S5: think what the context here is saying, hey, remember when
• 16:12
  S5: you go, you go to them privately first. Then if
• 16:15
  S5: they don't listen to that, then you go with the group.
• 16:18
  S5: And I think in that setting, what Jesus is saying
• 16:21
  S5: in Matthew 18 is, hey, you go and do that
• 16:24
  S5: very challenging thing where 2 or 3 are gathered in
• 16:27
  S5: my name doing this, restoring a brother or sister. I
• 16:30
  S5: am right there with you. I want you to envision
• 16:33
  S5: me helping you to restore this fallen brother or sister. Wow.
• 16:37
  S5: That's powerful. When you realize that's hard to do, is.
• 16:40
  S3: To.
• 16:40
  S5: Absolutely do that. Well, that's what we're not talking about
• 16:43
  S5: because then it's like, well, if I'm not with you
• 16:45
  S5: or somebody a 2 or 3, does that mean God's
• 16:47
  S5: not in their midst when I'm praying? Yeah. You know,
• 16:49
  S5: so again, you look at the flip side of that,
• 16:51
  S5: what the verse is not saying, and then you realize, oh, okay. Yeah,
• 16:54
  S5: that's probably not what this verse is saying, is that
• 16:57
  S5: we need a small group in order to have God's
• 16:59
  S5: presence with us. No, I can be have God's presence
• 17:02
  S5: when I'm praying by myself.
• 17:03
  S3: Now, you've given a couple of when you're reading at home,
• 17:06
  S3: a couple of kind of tips and tricks. We like
• 17:09
  S3: to talk about that around here, but things that can
• 17:11
  S3: that can really help us. And one of them is
• 17:14
  S3: going to be to, to aim for reading things, not
• 17:17
  S3: just pulling out a verse here and there. So beyond
• 17:19
  S3: the context is important for sure, but training ourselves not
• 17:23
  S3: to pull out verses, but to actually read it as
• 17:26
  S3: it's intended, speak to that. And then a couple of
• 17:28
  S3: other tips.
• 17:29
  S5: Yeah, I mean, certainly read the whole book or read,
• 17:32
  S5: especially the long passage or section at that. That verse
• 17:35
  S5: is in. Uh, I would say before I know there's
• 17:38
  S5: a lot of good Bible studies out there and they
• 17:39
  S5: go right quickly into doing, you know, kind of concordance
• 17:42
  S5: work and individual work. No, no, no, before you get
• 17:45
  S5: into that. And that can be really effective. But down
• 17:48
  S5: the road, read the passage ten times. That's probably going
• 17:51
  S5: to be more helpful for you to get the train
• 17:53
  S5: of thought of what the biblical author is trying to stress.
• 17:57
  S5: And that way then you're less likely to go astray
• 18:00
  S5: by doing that. So that's one the idea is, you know,
• 18:03
  S5: reading in, in a couple of translations, listen to it orally.
• 18:06
  S5: I do this all the time now because there's so
• 18:08
  S5: many things where you can listen. I have audible and
• 18:10
  S5: I have a couple of translations of the Bible, and
• 18:13
  S5: when I'm drifting off to sleep, I'll put one of
• 18:15
  S5: those in and you know, I'll wake up in and
• 18:18
  S5: out and all of a sudden I'll hear, you know,
• 18:20
  S5: for the next 3 or 4 chapters down the road.
• 18:23
  S5: But it's great because it's consuming my mind with the
• 18:26
  S5: Word of God. And you're hearing it the way the
• 18:29
  S5: original audience heard it is through the ear gate rather
• 18:31
  S5: than through the eye gate. And so context, the reading
• 18:34
  S5: the passage over and over again in its entirety. And
• 18:37
  S5: now there's actually Bibles that you can buy without chapter
• 18:41
  S5: and verse numbers. That also can be somewhat problematic if
• 18:44
  S5: we think that, oh man, this verse has 60 verses
• 18:46
  S5: in it. It's a long chapter. Well, this has nothing
• 18:48
  S5: to do with what the author is trying to focus on,
• 18:51
  S5: how long this particular chapter is. They didn't even have
• 18:53
  S5: chapter and verse numbers. So reading it like we would,
• 18:56
  S5: a normal piece of literature, I think helps to go
• 18:59
  S5: a long way towards keeping things in context.
• 19:01
  S3: Yeah. And one thing that I will add just from
• 19:03
  S3: my own personal experience is to don't get frustrated as
• 19:09
  S3: this is as someone who, you know, I work at
• 19:11
  S3: Moody Radio, but I did not go to Bible school.
• 19:14
  S3: I was never formally trained. And so there's a lot
• 19:18
  S3: of areas where I feel like, oh my goodness, all
• 19:20
  S3: these people are so much smarter than me. They know
• 19:22
  S3: so much more of the Bible, and that can plague
• 19:25
  S3: many of us, but not to get frustrated, to be
• 19:28
  S3: faithful and diligent with God's Word and trust that he's
• 19:30
  S3: doing something in you. Even if you're feeling like you're
• 19:34
  S3: getting stuck in these passages where you're going, okay, who
• 19:37
  S3: is saying what and what is this? Right? I mean,
• 19:40
  S3: wouldn't you. Wouldn't you agree?
• 19:41
  S5: I totally agree, and this is where, again, when we
• 19:43
  S5: think about how we spend our leisure time, you know,
• 19:46
  S5: we can binge watch, you know, television programs on Netflix
• 19:49
  S5: or Prime or whatever else. And we never sit and
• 19:52
  S5: read this, the Bible for that length of time that
• 19:55
  S5: we can sit and watch several episodes of a show
• 19:58
  S5: over and over again. And the average time that we
• 20:01
  S5: watch an average film, which is about, you know, one
• 20:03
  S5: and a half to 2.5 hours. Yeah. So many books
• 20:06
  S5: of the Bible could be read during that same amount
• 20:08
  S5: of time. Not the whole thing, but just individual books.
• 20:11
  S5: You can read Matthew, in the same time that you
• 20:13
  S5: sit down and watch a film. So think about that
• 20:15
  S5: the next time you sit down. Listener, are you spending
• 20:19
  S5: quality time in God's Word? Just not just studying it,
• 20:22
  S5: but just reading it to allow the word of God
• 20:25
  S5: to just kind of, you know, kind of enter into
• 20:27
  S5: your mind and then you have better insights because you
• 20:30
  S5: have the context of the word of God. And in
• 20:32
  S5: your mind.
• 20:33
  S3: Great conversation with Doctor Jim Coakley. I mentioned his book,
• 20:36
  S3: 14 Fresh Ways to Enjoy the Bible. We have an
• 20:39
  S3: excerpt that he's made available for you. So just text
• 20:42
  S3: fresh to 800 555 7898. If you enjoyed this conversation,
• 20:48
  S3: you are going to love this resource. Just text fresh
• 20:50
  S3: to 805 557898.
• 20:54
  S1: It's Carl and Crew on Moody Radio.
• 20:57
  S3: We are really having a lot of fun with this
• 20:59
  S3: conversation around these commonly misquoted or misunderstood passages of scripture,
• 21:06
  S3: and I want to tackle one that came in probably.
• 21:09
  S3: This was probably the number one submission when I asked
• 21:12
  S3: this question, both on Facebook and on Instagram. What is
• 21:14
  S3: a commonly attributed statement attributed to the Bible that's not
• 21:18
  S3: actually there. Yeah. Before I tell you what it is,
• 21:23
  S3: I'm going to tell you a little bit of the
• 21:25
  S3: story behind it. Okay. So are you familiar with Aesop's Fables?
• 21:31
  S3: Have you? Yes, a couple of the popular ones, the
• 21:34
  S3: tortoise and the hare.
• 21:35
  S4: Mhm.
• 21:36
  S3: The boy who cried wolf, and you immediately, when you
• 21:39
  S3: hear those. You know what the takeaway was, right? So
• 21:42
  S3: for the. The tortoise and the hare.
• 21:44
  S4: Slow and steady.
• 21:45
  S3: Slow and steady wins.
• 21:46
  S4: The race.
• 21:47
  S3: The boy who cried wolf. What was the takeaway on
• 21:49
  S3: that one?
• 21:49
  S4: You keep lying. Who's going to believe you? Your credibility
• 21:52
  S4: is gone.
• 21:52
  S3: Exactly. Yeah, yeah. And so there are these little stories
• 21:55
  S3: that become a part of our kind of our cultural understanding.
• 21:59
  S3: And so we immediately know that there's one that you
• 22:02
  S3: may not have known, and it is about a farmer. Okay,
• 22:06
  S3: so let me tell you this fable. So this fable
• 22:09
  S3: is that there's a farmer and he's driving his horses
• 22:11
  S3: and his wagon and they're going, it's been raining and
• 22:14
  S3: they're going through the mud. And as they're going through,
• 22:17
  S3: one of the wheels gets stuck deep into the mud. Okay, okay.
• 22:23
  S3: So he climbs out of his wagon and he gets
• 22:27
  S3: down on his knees or, or cries out one of
• 22:31
  S3: the two, okay? And he curses his bad luck, and
• 22:35
  S3: he calls upon Hercules to help him. Okay, so this
• 22:40
  S3: is this is the fable.
• 22:42
  S4: Gotcha.
• 22:42
  S3: And then, according to the fable, Hercules responds by telling
• 22:47
  S3: him to put your shoulder to the wheel, that heaven
• 22:51
  S3: will only help you.
• 22:53
  S4: Who.
• 22:54
  S3: Help when you help yourself.
• 22:56
  S4: Okay.
• 22:57
  S3: Does that sound familiar?
• 22:58
  S4: Yes. Yes it does.
• 23:01
  S3: God helps those who help themselves. So that's actually a
• 23:06
  S3: commonly attributed to Ben Franklin was the one who sort
• 23:09
  S3: of popularized it later as one of the Poor Richard's Almanack.
• 23:14
  S3: But originally Aesop's fable was where that originated. And it
• 23:19
  S3: sounds when you hear that story, you think, okay, yep,
• 23:23
  S3: he's calling out for Hercules. And again, this is according
• 23:26
  S3: to the fable. I'm not promoting any of this. I'm
• 23:28
  S3: simply explaining. And so the idea is, no, get out
• 23:33
  S3: of that wagon and try to get that wheel unstuck.
• 23:36
  S3: Don't cry out for help. Try to help yourself first
• 23:40
  S3: and then you will get yourself free. Where do I
• 23:43
  S3: start with? Why this one, my friends? Not only is
• 23:49
  S3: it not in the Bible, it is the exact opposite.
• 23:53
  S4: Of.
• 23:53
  S3: What God calls us.
• 23:55
  S4: To do.
• 23:56
  S3: Let's get to it. Great conversation this morning. If you
• 23:59
  S3: missed any of it, or a conversation with Doctor Jim Coakley,
• 24:02
  S3: that in particular, I know you're going to want to
• 24:03
  S3: hear again or share with someone on our show cast
• 24:06
  S3: is a great way to get caught up. If you
• 24:08
  S3: miss something or if you want to share it with someone,
• 24:10
  S3: just text show to (800) 555-7898. Text show to (800) 555-7898. I
• 24:20
  S3: also want to point you to, I mentioned that I
• 24:22
  S3: put this post out on Facebook on Instagram. If you
• 24:25
  S3: are not following us, if you are on those platforms,
• 24:27
  S3: if you're not, hey, no problem. But if you're on Facebook, Instagram,
• 24:31
  S3: I don't blame you by the way, but I digress.
• 24:35
  S3: We're on Facebook, Instagram, we're also on YouTube. So this
• 24:40
  S3: particularly for our younger listeners, or maybe you have a grandchild,
• 24:43
  S3: you'd like to introduce them to Moody Radio, but they're
• 24:46
  S3: not really much of a radio listener. YouTube is a
• 24:49
  S3: great way to get some of this content. A lot
• 24:52
  S3: of it is broken down. Savannah does a great job
• 24:54
  S3: of putting together.
• 24:55
  S4: These.
• 24:56
  S3: Reels and the shorts that really, um, the short attention span.
• 25:00
  S3: My son watches these shorts. Drives me nuts, by the way. Like,
• 25:04
  S3: where did you learn that? Well, I learned it on YouTube.
• 25:08
  S3: Some content not as trustworthy, but everything that we're putting
• 25:12
  S3: out is solidly biblical. It's going to encourage, it's going
• 25:16
  S3: to help, going to inspire. So if you know somebody
• 25:18
  S3: who really likes to be on YouTube and that's their
• 25:22
  S3: preferred platform, send them there, just text social, we'll get
• 25:25
  S3: you connected with all of our other places you can
• 25:28
  S3: connect with us. Just text social to 800 555 7898,
• 25:33
  S3: Social to 800. Five. Five. Five. 78. 98.
• 25:38
  S1: Get to know the team behind the scenes. Follow Carl
• 25:41
  S1: and crew on Facebook and Instagram.
• 25:44
  S3: What do we do when evil is called? Good and
• 25:47
  S3: good is called evil. Doctor John Kessler, retired professor here
• 25:52
  S3: at Moody Bible Institute. He's got a book out. It's
• 25:55
  S3: called Dangerous Virtues How to Follow Jesus when Evil Masquerades
• 26:00
  S3: as good. Timely conversation. Don't want to miss it. Coming up. Well,
• 26:03
  S3: one of the challenges of the day that we are
• 26:06
  S3: living in is you call one thing good, but someone
• 26:10
  S3: across the room from you or sitting right next to
• 26:13
  S3: you may totally disagree and say that that thing that
• 26:17
  S3: you're calling good is evil and vice versa. How do
• 26:21
  S3: we define what is good and evil in a culture
• 26:25
  S3: where that's becoming increasingly confusing? Doctor John Kessler joining us,
• 26:30
  S3: he has written a great work. It's called Dangerous Virtues
• 26:34
  S3: How to Follow Jesus when evil masquerades as good. You
• 26:38
  S3: know there's nothing new under the sun, Doctor Kessler. So
• 26:41
  S3: there's always been challenges in terms of our agreement upon
• 26:45
  S3: good and evil. But it does seem like we are
• 26:48
  S3: more confused than ever and more people shying away from
• 26:53
  S3: calling anything good or evil for fear of offense. Well, first,
• 26:57
  S3: speak to the cultural kind of moment that we are in.
• 27:00
  S3: Is it new or is it not?
• 27:02
  S6: It's only as new as the Garden of Eden, right?
• 27:05
  S6: I mean, isn't it the case where Satan comes in
• 27:08
  S6: and redefines what's good for Adam and Eve? Eve buys it.
• 27:13
  S6: You know, she she's persuaded. Adam's not persuaded, but he
• 27:19
  S6: doesn't want to shake things up, so he's silent. And
• 27:22
  S6: so really, that's how all of this that we're dealing
• 27:25
  S6: with our confusion about it, the problem of definition, it
• 27:29
  S6: all starts there. That is the whole story of man
• 27:33
  S6: is dealing with the reality of sin. Our confusion about
• 27:37
  S6: it and God's intervention, both to help us see the
• 27:40
  S6: truth and to provide a remedy for it.
• 27:43
  S3: Talk a little bit about the impetus for this book.
• 27:46
  S3: What prompted you to. Is it what you were seeing
• 27:49
  S3: in culture? Was it what you were hearing in conversation?
• 27:52
  S6: I think it was when things were really heating up.
• 27:56
  S6: You know, culturally, and there was division about really things
• 28:01
  S6: that they say 50 years ago we would not have
• 28:04
  S6: disagreed over. Even among those who identify as Christians call
• 28:08
  S6: themselves followers of Jesus, and some people saying, oh, this
• 28:11
  S6: is sin, and other people saying that it's not. But
• 28:14
  S6: it also grew. All my books really are self-therapy. You know,
• 28:18
  S6: it grows. They grow out of my own wrestling with issues.
• 28:22
  S6: And I have been impressed by how subtle and complex
• 28:27
  S6: the problem of sin is in human experience in my
• 28:31
  S6: own life and the lives of the people that I
• 28:33
  S6: care about. And the tendency of the church to oversimplify
• 28:38
  S6: the notion of the seven deadly sins became sort of
• 28:41
  S6: a framework to just hang that conversation on.
• 28:44
  S3: Let's talk about the seven deadly sins you hear that
• 28:48
  S3: referenced a lot. Is that come straight out of the
• 28:51
  S3: Word of God?
• 28:52
  S6: The idea of sin does for sure. The Bible, the
• 28:55
  S6: Bible is full of lists that identify things that displease God.
• 28:59
  S6: I mean, one of the ones the most famous really
• 29:02
  S6: is the Ten Commandments, a kind of list of sins
• 29:06
  S6: thou shalt, thou shalt not. Proverbs. In the New Testament,
• 29:10
  S6: you have a number of ethical passages where you have
• 29:13
  S6: lists of sin lists, virtue lists. So it's not it's
• 29:17
  S6: not a new thing at all. The notion of the
• 29:19
  S6: seven deadly sins is something that develops around the fourth
• 29:23
  S6: century from a particular monk who came up with a list,
• 29:27
  S6: what are called the capital sins. And by that they
• 29:30
  S6: were categories. Really. It wasn't that he was trying to
• 29:34
  S6: make a list of the most important sins or the
• 29:36
  S6: worst sins, but categories of sin under which pretty much
• 29:41
  S6: all human sinful behavior can fall. It's not an exhaustive list.
• 29:47
  S6: It's just a good starting point for thinking about it.
• 29:50
  S3: We've got Doctor John Kessler with us right now. He's
• 29:53
  S3: a retired professor and faculty emeritus from Moody Bible Institute
• 29:57
  S3: and Pastoral Studies, also author of the book Dangerous Virtues
• 30:00
  S3: How to Follow Jesus. When Evil Masquerades as Good. I
• 30:03
  S3: want to go back to something you said a little
• 30:05
  S3: bit earlier. You talked about the church's over oversimplification of sin.
• 30:11
  S3: I don't want to misquote you there, but can you
• 30:13
  S3: explain a little bit more what you mean about that?
• 30:16
  S6: I think the tendency of the church today is to
• 30:19
  S6: feel that all it has to do is define. So
• 30:22
  S6: if it points to sin and says, oh, that there
• 30:26
  S6: that you're doing, that's a sin. Then that problem is
• 30:31
  S6: addressed when you listen to the conversations we're having about it,
• 30:34
  S6: particularly the cultural conversations. That's really what a lot of
• 30:39
  S6: it is. We say, oh, that sin. Oh no it isn't.
• 30:41
  S6: Oh yes it is. Oh no it isn't. Oh yes
• 30:44
  S6: it is. The problem is that if all we needed
• 30:48
  S6: was to understand the list, to say, oh, that third
• 30:53
  S6: thing that you're doing, that's a sin. And once we
• 30:56
  S6: knew it, then we could just stop doing it. Then
• 30:59
  S6: you wouldn't need Christ. All you'd need is the law,
• 31:03
  S6: which Paul says can't save anybody. And Christ comes because
• 31:08
  S6: sin is so deeply rooted in our being. And the
• 31:13
  S6: work of Christ through the cross creates such a fundamental
• 31:18
  S6: break with sin. It's not that it evaporates and disappears
• 31:21
  S6: in some senses, quite the opposite. The struggle just starts
• 31:25
  S6: at that point. But it is the ultimate remedy for sin.
• 31:28
  S6: And if I don't understand not just what constitutes sin,
• 31:33
  S6: but how Christ is the remedy for it, I can
• 31:36
  S6: never overcome it.
• 31:38
  S3: The whole idea of evil masquerading as good. You talk
• 31:42
  S3: about the definition of sin. There's a lot of things
• 31:45
  S3: that the church is defining as sin based on the
• 31:48
  S3: Bible that the world is getting really upset about. I mean,
• 31:53
  S3: speak to that a little bit. Is that part of
• 31:55
  S3: what makes us maybe reflexively stick to the definitions, because
• 31:59
  S3: it's kind of drawing the line in the sand, because
• 32:02
  S3: the world pushes back against those definitions, even as sin.
• 32:06
  S6: It is. And also, I think that in this age,
• 32:09
  S6: we believe that the solution to every problem is education.
• 32:14
  S6: And if you just tell people the right thing, they'll
• 32:17
  S6: look at it and they'll say, oh, oh, we were wrong.
• 32:20
  S6: Let's do right. The Bible doesn't say that the Bible
• 32:23
  S6: is in favor of education. Right? The gospel is a message.
• 32:27
  S6: It's all about truth. But there's also this spiritual dynamic
• 32:32
  S6: that the Bible warns us about spiritual blindness, that I
• 32:37
  S6: can't see the truth. And so when it comes to
• 32:40
  S6: this whole issue of defining sin, there are two major
• 32:43
  S6: problems that we're dealing with. One is you mentioned it earlier,
• 32:46
  S6: quoting really from Isaiah, woe unto those who call good
• 32:49
  S6: evil and evil good. That is the age in which
• 32:52
  S6: we live and the way we deal with some of
• 32:55
  S6: these things that culturally, traditionally were viewed as sin. We
• 32:59
  S6: redefine them. We say, oh no, no, that's not sin.
• 33:01
  S6: That's just an old view. And now that's changed and
• 33:04
  S6: it's good. But the other problem is, is our own
• 33:07
  S6: sin nature, which causes us to be hypersensitive to the
• 33:13
  S6: sin in others and not nearly as aware of the
• 33:17
  S6: reality of the same sin, although manifested differently within ourselves.
• 33:24
  S6: So that's one of the reasons we're we're sort of
• 33:27
  S6: caught in this trap of just pointing, pointing the finger
• 33:32
  S6: because it's much easier to see it in you and
• 33:35
  S6: to point at you than it is really to understand
• 33:38
  S6: it within myself. Once I see it in myself, then
• 33:41
  S6: I have a whole different perspective on sin. Then I
• 33:45
  S6: have to think about it from the perspective of redemption,
• 33:48
  S6: because I begin to see like, I need help, I need,
• 33:51
  S6: I need to be saved. That's when I can begin
• 33:54
  S6: to look at what the Bible has to say about
• 33:56
  S6: God's remedy. And it is a remedy that goes beyond
• 34:00
  S6: just behavior. It goes right to the heart of who
• 34:04
  S6: we are, our very nature. And that's what has to
• 34:07
  S6: be changed.
• 34:08
  S3: Yeah, I think that that's the missing part of the
• 34:10
  S3: conversation where we're just defining it, but we're not talking
• 34:13
  S3: enough about the power that I need, that you need that.
• 34:18
  S6: There's a simple word for it. What's missing is the gospel.
• 34:20
  S6: If I'm just defining and I'm just talking about the
• 34:24
  S6: moral categories. That's all law. And I'm not saying that
• 34:29
  S6: that's an unimportant conversation. It's a very important conversation in
• 34:33
  S6: many regards. It is the starting point. But if I
• 34:36
  S6: don't go beyond that and get to the what the
• 34:40
  S6: scripture calls good news about why Jesus came, how that's
• 34:45
  S6: not only clearly stated in the Gospels, but then, you know,
• 34:49
  S6: extrapolated and discussed in the in the letters of the
• 34:54
  S6: New Testament, which point to how it affects our experience
• 34:58
  S6: and who we are and how that fundamentally changes us. Well,
• 35:02
  S6: then we're really not providing anybody with any help to
• 35:05
  S6: the problem of sin. We just rule them out. We say, oh,
• 35:08
  S6: what you did was wrong. You shouldn't have done that.
• 35:11
  S6: Just telling me to stop doesn't give me the power
• 35:13
  S6: to stop. And knowing that it's wrong. Paul's very clear
• 35:16
  S6: in Romans seven, the struggle he has with sin. He's
• 35:20
  S6: doing things he doesn't even want to do until he
• 35:24
  S6: comes to. Romans eight. The solution of Christ puts a
• 35:27
  S6: new law within him. The law of the spirit of life.
• 35:31
  S3: So how do we as Christ followers. How do we
• 35:34
  S3: hold out the hope of the gospel where it's. It's
• 35:38
  S3: a gospel of grace and it's not a gospel of
• 35:42
  S3: law calling sin what it is in a culture that
• 35:45
  S3: pushes back constantly, but holding out the hope of the gospel.
• 35:48
  S3: How do we. I mean, I guess that's the million
• 35:51
  S3: dollar question is how how now? Shall we live? I mean,
• 35:55
  S3: in light of what the call on the believer.
• 35:58
  S6: It's a great question. And I think the answer is
• 36:01
  S6: that we go back to the source material, which tells
• 36:06
  S6: us what the message is, and we pay attention to
• 36:09
  S6: how those who first declared that message. Did you know?
• 36:12
  S6: So so Paul says, you know, here's the truth. Jesus
• 36:16
  S6: Christ came into the world to save sinners of whom
• 36:21
  S6: I am chief. So it identifies the category, the reality
• 36:26
  S6: of the problem of sin that draws in all of
• 36:28
  S6: our attempts to help people understand the definitions, which is
• 36:32
  S6: not empty work. It's only empty if you don't take
• 36:35
  S6: the next step. It also goes beyond the US them
• 36:39
  S6: dichotomy that we're so, you know, that's part of the
• 36:42
  S6: reason the world struggles with it to say, well, you're
• 36:44
  S6: you know, what you're doing is a sin. What you're
• 36:46
  S6: doing is a sin. And then they come back and say, well,
• 36:49
  S6: what about what you're doing.
• 36:50
  S3: For the person who is listening and gets frustrated because
• 36:54
  S3: they see so much out there, that's wrong. How do
• 36:59
  S3: we one not get persuaded that evil is good? We
• 37:04
  S3: keep our own clear headedness about it, but that we
• 37:07
  S3: also hold out the hope of the gospel for people
• 37:10
  S3: who their eyes have not been opened yet.
• 37:13
  S6: I think there's a place for lament. You see it
• 37:15
  S6: in the Psalms. You see it, you know. You see
• 37:17
  S6: it in the New Testament. You see it in statements
• 37:19
  S6: about Jesus. And I think one of the ways to
• 37:21
  S6: deal with it is to cry out to the Lord,
• 37:24
  S6: to pray that he would intervene in the lives of
• 37:28
  S6: the people. Often there's a face connected, somebody we know
• 37:32
  S6: and care about. I think the danger is that when
• 37:34
  S6: you become so outward focused, you lose that personal dimension.
• 37:38
  S6: Take the next step, turn inward and say, okay, Lord,
• 37:41
  S6: show me today how the power of Christ transforms that,
• 37:46
  S6: how it changes it first by forgiveness, because Jesus came
• 37:51
  S6: to pay the penalty for sin so that those people
• 37:54
  S6: who are struggling with sin, that price has been paid.
• 37:58
  S6: And you have to start with that. You start with
• 38:00
  S6: receiving this as a gift. And then there's the power
• 38:03
  S6: that comes. So that Romans 611, the apostle Paul says,
• 38:07
  S6: count yourself, reckon yourself dead to sin. It is a
• 38:11
  S6: way of seeing yourself before. It is a way of
• 38:14
  S6: behaving and living. And then Colossians three five, put to
• 38:18
  S6: death whatever belongs to your earthly nature. It's one of
• 38:22
  S6: the geniuses of the way Paul talks about is he
• 38:25
  S6: makes this fundamental separation between sin and himself. He describes
• 38:29
  S6: it as something that is inside of him, but not
• 38:32
  S6: fundamentally him. So that for the Christian, every time I
• 38:36
  S6: am wrestling with sin, I have to realize that somewhere
• 38:39
  S6: within me. But it isn't me. Because of what Jesus
• 38:42
  S6: Christ has done. He's made a division there and he's
• 38:45
  S6: forgiven it.
• 38:46
  S3: Doctor John Kessler. Great conversation. The book is called Dangerous
• 38:49
  S3: Virtues How to Follow Jesus when Evil Masquerades as Good
• 38:53
  S3: just text virtues to 805 557898. Text virtues 805 557898.
• 39:03
  S7: Hey, this is Carl with Carl and crew, and I'm
• 39:04
  S7: so grateful that you listened to this show cast. Thank
• 39:07
  S7: you mostly for being part of the boom crew as
• 39:10
  S7: we help you take your next step with Jesus, you're
• 39:12
  S7: a huge encouragement to us. We'll be here again live
• 39:15
  S7: every weekday morning from 5 to 9 a.m.. Godspeed.