Latest / Difference Makers Podcast / DMD Live - Integrating Finance, Fashion, and Family: Michelle Shuttleworth’s Inspiring Journey

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DMD Live - Integrating Finance, Fashion, and Family: Michelle Shuttleworth’s Inspiring Journey · Difference Makers Podcast

• 0:16
  Sinead: Good morning, good afternoon and good evening everybody, to our next edition of Difference Makers Discuss.
• 0:23
  Sinead: I am joined today by ICAST member Michelle Shuttleworth and I cannot wait to delve into her story.
• 0:31
  Sinead: I'm going to try and do a little bit of service to Michelle with the introduction, but I'm sure I'm going to miss something out.
• 0:37
  Sinead: So Michelle will help me on it.
• 0:38
  Sinead: Trained at PwC, specialising in FS advisory and M&A, has an amazing career journey spanning household names such as Virgin Entertainment, burberry, bbc, thomson Reuters, sits on a number of not-for-profit boards and currently is CFO of the Francis Crick Institute.
• 1:00
  Sinead: She also, in her spare time, is mum to four boys and has founded a clothing line company.
• 1:06
  Sinead: So I think it's fair to say the next 30 minutes are going to be chock-a-block of information and questions.
• 1:13
  Sinead: Michelle, thanks a million for joining us.
• 1:16
  Sinead: I'm so excited to speak to you.
• 1:18
  Sinead: Thanks so much for having me.
• 1:21
  Sinead: You're welcome.
• 1:22
  Sinead: So look, let's start at the beginning.
• 1:24
  Sinead: I've given a little bit of a brief introduction there, but do you want to fill in the gaps and maybe tell me a bit about your journey from when you decided to be a charged accountant up to today?
• 1:36
  Michelle: Sure, yeah, let's do that, and then we can go from whatever direction you think Exactly Interesting.
• 1:43
  Michelle: So I did accounting and finance and economics actually at university, which is slightly tedious, but, um, I studied at the lse, thinking, I think in those days you sort of didn't really know, uh, career advice wasn't particularly good.
• 1:58
  Michelle: So you should think, well, I want to be a professional, and so that tends to either mean, well, I'm going to be an accountant or a lawyer or a doctor, um, and I knew I didn't want to be any of the other two.
• 2:06
  Michelle: So so I thought, well, I'll do accounting, that can probably let me do all sorts of things in the future.
• 2:11
  Michelle: Um, and then actually did, I did a internship when I was there with what was Coopers and my brand, um, and absolutely loved it.
• 2:22
  Michelle: I mean, I think it was just I was a sort of very normal girl from Essex, hadn't really travelled very much.
• 2:29
  Michelle: They took us out to Greece.
• 2:30
  Michelle: It was terribly exotic and I got to meet lots of really interesting people from all different backgrounds and I suddenly sort of felt this lesser brethren of this far wider world and yeah, that really sparked a love of sort, of a desire to go and join the big four, I think so.
• 2:47
  Michelle: Um, so I went off and joined coops and libram, which then quite rapidly became pwc, um and, as you say, specialized in insurance, financial services, um, and I spent some time there training in audit but doing some transaction services and M&A and latterly did some media M&A, which is what then got me into going to work with Virgin Entertainment, which, for those who remember record stores Virgin Entertainment had a load of record stores, basically that, including the big mega store on Oxford Street.
• 3:22
  Michelle: So that was a fantastic experience and I went from sort of this big, huge, uh, very corporate environment wearing some very smart suits, all the rest of it, to somewhere where people were turning up in flip-flops and, um, I didn't quite know what to do with myself.
• 3:37
  Michelle: And I think what was brilliant about that was that I was sort of in my early 20s and it really rubbed the edges off me.
• 3:44
  Michelle: I think I'd had quite a.
• 3:45
  Michelle: I hadn't appreciated till then, actually, what a narrow perspective I had had being in that kind of environment.
• 3:50
  Michelle: You know, you're surrounded by lots of people who are incredibly bright, who have are all very driven, all very ambitious, and they've all got to a certain point in order to be part of that firm, and then I think what you realize when you go out into the big wide world is that there's a vast array of people from all sorts of backgrounds, um, who are hugely successful in whatever they do, um, who are driven in a completely different way.
• 4:15
  Michelle: Um.
• 4:15
  Michelle: So I loved that um and I spent about three or four years there doing all sorts of things from uh, they owned a site that was an ex?
• 4:23
  Michelle: Uh nightclub in Manchester that they needed to work out what they were going to do with it.
• 4:27
  Michelle: They'd bought to make into a cinema and you know all these sorts of random Richard Branson-esque things that um that come up.
• 4:33
  Michelle: So, uh, it was all, and did you?
• 4:36
  Sinead: meet?
• 4:36
  Sinead: Did you meet the man himself?
• 4:37
  Michelle: I did, yeah, I did he had a um, an annual party at um, a club on Kensington High Street that he had an involvement with.
• 4:48
  Michelle: So all the staff would go every year up to this rooftop bar with flamingos and all the rest of it.
• 4:53
  Michelle: Sorry, real flamingos, real flamingos.
• 4:58
  Michelle: Yeah, stop it.
• 4:58
  Michelle: Ordinary man, yeah, oh, brilliant.
• 5:01
  Michelle: Yeah, it's quite an interesting time, but a very cash-strapped organisation.
• 5:08
  Michelle: So it was a lot of working through retail at that time, particularly record stores.
• 5:14
  Michelle: With the advent of digital downloads, etc.
• 5:16
  Michelle: It was a struggling industry.
• 5:20
  Michelle: So it was an interesting lesson in the importance of cash flow planning actually, because I think probably in no other role since then, um, the cash flow sort of done itself once you've got your balance sheet, but in that one it really was the key.
• 5:33
  Michelle: So an interesting time.
• 5:36
  Michelle: Um, and I'd spent a few years there and then got an opportunity to go and join Burberry.
• 5:42
  Michelle: Uh, and I have a huge love of fashion.
• 5:45
  Michelle: I spend a lot of my spare time doing courses in art and pattern cutting and design, which, um, you mentioned, clothing business, so that's so.
• 5:54
  Michelle: I had this passion outside and I thought, well, wouldn't it be great to be able to try and combine those things a bit?
• 6:00
  Michelle: Um, and went to work for Burberry under Angela Ahrens, who later went on to head up Apple's retail business.
• 6:09
  Michelle: Um, she's a phenomenal woman and she'd relatively recently taken over this brand um, as an American a very British brand um, and put through some very significant changes, you know, moving manufacturing from a base in Wales, sending a lot of production offshore.
• 6:27
  Michelle: You know, with lots of work on margin management, and it was a real lesson in sort of bravery, I suppose, brave leader.
• 6:34
  Michelle: So I learned a lot there.
• 6:38
  Michelle: But I also fell pregnant with my first child and I had this view that gosh well, you know, I worked very hard and long hours.
• 6:44
  Michelle: I can't possibly do this once I've got a child um, and I was being courted a bit by the BBC and, uh, I went and had a chat with them and was blown away by the fact that, uh, the, the, the heads of what was the corporate finance team at the BBC at the time were two women doing a role share, which I thought was terribly and um, so, yes, so I had to be there.
• 7:09
  Michelle: I just thought this was phenomenal.
• 7:10
  Michelle: And they actually used to.
• 7:11
  Michelle: The BBC used to run nurseries as well on site for their staff.
• 7:15
  Michelle: Um, that's great.
• 7:17
  Michelle: They closed shortly after I joined, but, um, forgive my puppy, uh, who's's in the background?
• 7:24
  Michelle: So it's a.
• 7:28
  Michelle: Yeah, it was a great, a great experience.
• 7:40
  Sinead: Michelle, before we leave Burberry, what I'm really fascinated on is it's a company that seems to have gone on an immense journey of of marketing, and I think you said there there was some brave decisions.
• 7:43
  Sinead: I mean, what did you learn from a company like, like that?
• 7:47
  Sinead: Because it really has reinvented itself, I'd say I want to say at least twice, and it's phenomenal.
• 7:53
  Michelle: Yeah, it is phenomenal.
• 7:55
  Michelle: And when I joined it was coming off the back of the whole sort of chav connotations that there were through the noughties probably, and they had a relatively new creative director there at the time, christopher Bailey, who's very British, very young, very much interested in bringing back a lot of the archival stuff.
• 8:19
  Michelle: So interesting going back to the roots of the brand and saying, well, actually, what makes Burberry?
• 8:24
  Michelle: Burberry and its quintessential Britishness was so, um, central to that, I think.
• 8:30
  Michelle: And he was incredible and sort of picked up on not only sort of patterns, designs, uh, branding ideas, logos etc from the archive which he then spun into stuff for the catwalk, but also connected that very much with, um, current music and youth and, uh, british culture in a way that sort of they hadn't done previously, which I think is what really reinvigorated the brand.
• 8:59
  Michelle: Um, my cfo at the time uh was brilliant, brilliant woman, also pwC trained, actually very British, and I think there's something about the fact that the brand trades off of its Britishness that the heads of that organisation need to embody that in some way shape or form.
• 9:20
  Michelle: And I think it just caught a moment in time and, as you say, I know fashion brands in particular, tend to go through these sort of cyclical reinventions, um, but at that time it was a really exciting time because it was it was growing really rapidly and I think the catwalk line which is called Prossum was um was going great.
• 9:40
  Michelle: Guys and we, from a finance perspective, you'd had these extraordinary situations where um materials are so important and, you know, for that brand, you'd be um making handbags out of these extraordinary fabrics, um which you know, uh meant that the margins were phenomenal.
• 9:59
  Michelle: Yeah, or you're balancing that or trying to complement that with a set of products that are maybe higher volume, lower margin.
• 10:10
  Sinead: Yeah, yeah, it's fascinating and I think there's there's probably something, something in that for us all.
• 10:14
  Sinead: And look, I'm going to come back to fashion a little bit later because I'm dying to hear about your, your own company.
• 10:21
  Sinead: But so you went into BBC and how Will we do that again?
• 10:28
  Sinead: No, it's fine, that's all good.
• 10:30
  Sinead: I love that.
• 10:32
  Sinead: Okay, so you went into BBC and you were there for, I think, a fair whack number of years, is that right?
• 10:45
  Michelle: Yeah, about five and a half years.
• 10:46
  Michelle: Yes, yeah, and I had my.
• 10:49
  Michelle: So I actually went.
• 10:51
  Michelle: I got the job at the BBC when I was on maternity leave.
• 10:55
  Michelle: It was when I very recently had my first child.
• 10:58
  Michelle: So I think that was my place that I went to, thinking that I'd have this very different approach to my career post children.
• 11:07
  Michelle: So I went to the BBC thinking, right, well, this is great.
• 11:11
  Michelle: You know, I've got some bosses who do a role share who are very appreciative.
• 11:16
  Michelle: The reason they did a role share is because they had young children and it's a fantastic environment actually for that.
• 11:23
  Michelle: I think I just, yeah, I just learned so much from that team.
• 11:27
  Michelle: It is just a phenomenal finance team in all sorts of ways and really I sort of yeah, I sort of grew up there.
• 11:35
  Michelle: I spent time in corporate finance, which is basically the team where you look at all of the major projects that are going on across the BBC and look at business cases and all the rest of it.
• 11:44
  Michelle: Projects that are going on across the BBC and look at business cases and all the rest of it.
• 11:47
  Michelle: So things such as moving broadcasting north, moves of big buildings, etc.
• 11:51
  Michelle: Of which there was plenty in the time that I was there and I went over to work for BBC Radio and look after the finances there under who is now the DG, timavey um, who actually is a marketeer by trade, and he was a fantastic boss to have, because he just had a very different perspective about how these things should run.
• 12:11
  Michelle: You know, he wasn't a bbc lifer, he hadn't grown up in broadcasting um, unlike many of the others uh who were in leadership there.
• 12:18
  Michelle: So that was really refreshing and I learned a lot from him um.
• 12:23
  Michelle: And then I uh had another baby and many of my jobs are punctuated with children in one way shape or form.
• 12:30
  Michelle: So I came back from my maternity leave with my second into a big finance transformation programme.
• 12:36
  Michelle: So we were doing some changes both to systems and to structures across the BBC and the finance team, and I led a part of that looking at management, information and analytics.
• 12:48
  Michelle: And it was great because it got me out across the country visiting teams in all sorts of places looking at how we would make the financial information better and provide more information to people on the ground so people could use systems to put their own numbers in and, um, you know, it would make finance uh more focused on partnering than just on producing numbers.
• 13:12
  Michelle: So there was a an interesting set of change programs there and off the back of that I then became finance director of the non-broadcast stuff at the bbc.
• 13:21
  Michelle: So um, all of the uh technology and um procurement activity, um and finance itself and HR and others, so anything that was non-broadcast I looked after um and it's yeah what I.
• 13:36
  Michelle: What I loved about the BBC, in addition to just having a fantastic team, was and still is the fact that I I that sort of governance and funding model of the BBC frequently in work because it has a very interesting public-private almost dimension to it.
• 13:56
  Michelle: You know this very relatively fixed income base from a licence fee.
• 14:00
  Michelle: That is not that malleable.
• 14:04
  Michelle: A license fee that um is is not that malleable.
• 14:09
  Michelle: But your focus can be around costs and delivering value and actually then how you report and present success in that is really challenging.
• 14:14
  Michelle: And so lots of the stuff that we're doing with um certainly the quick now, but also with charities.
• 14:19
  Michelle: Um really picks up on that because you know you may have some commercial activity in a separate arm or whatever it may be that can give you back some income.
• 14:28
  Michelle: But your core mission delivery is all about how you take a pound and deliver the most value from that pound that you possibly can, and how you demonstrate that to people who have either paid their taxes, their license fee or, you know, given philanthropically to a charity is an incredibly powerful thing.
• 14:50
  Sinead: Which is actually really refreshing to hear a charter accountant say that, because so often we can be kind of caught in the whole maelstrom of cost cutting and just reporting, whereas what you're doing is driving value and getting the best from the limited resources you have.
• 15:04
  Sinead: So that's phenomenal.
• 15:07
  Sinead: Brings us nicely on to Crick Now.
• 15:10
  Sinead: I've done a bit of research on this and I've had the luxury of chatting to you before, so I know a bit about the Francis Crick Institute.
• 15:18
  Sinead: But please tell the audience because it's phenomenal.
• 15:24
  Michelle: Yeah, it is, and actually it's phenomenal.
• 15:25
  Michelle: Yeah, it is, and actually it's one of those things, unless you are a scientist, which, um, forgive me, some of your listeners may be, but, um, I hadn't heard of it before I went to work there.
• 15:33
  Michelle: And yes, it is, this, um, incredibly important part of uk life sciences.
• 15:40
  Michelle: So the crick institute was set set up almost seven years ago now by my boss, sir Paul Nurse, which was an amalgam of a couple of different institutes run by Cats Research UK and the Medical Research Council at the time, who came together on a single site, and it is the largest biomedical science facility in Europe actually.
• 16:01
  Michelle: So we've got about a million square foot just outside St Pancras station and it's a purpose-built discovery science centre.
• 16:10
  Michelle: So what happens there is that we have around 150 groups who are dedicated to discovery research.
• 16:19
  Michelle: They're looking at questions around how life works and they're doing it from the perspective of just wanting to find the answer.
• 16:27
  Michelle: So it's not necessarily about translation, which is where you take these findings and you create a therapy or a drug or a solution to something.
• 16:37
  Michelle: Others may do that and we do have an arm that does that activity, but actually the majority of the institute is around discovery science.
• 16:44
  Michelle: So it is these, a collection of these incredibly clever people who come together under one roof to share facilities and to share support and to share funding, and what myself and my team do is work with them.
• 16:59
  Michelle: I look after finance and facilities and infrastructure and a few other bits and pieces, and I have a team who run grant awards so they work with the scientists to get additional funding from various calls that might go out into the public domain, so from places such as the Wellcome Trust.
• 17:19
  Michelle: So the Crick as a whole has got six core partners and there's founder funders.
• 17:28
  Michelle: So, as I mentioned, cancer research uk earlier, there it's also the medical research council, the welcome trust and three university partners where um we work together to bring in phd and postdoc students who can continue their educations through the crick um and as a part of this new purpose-built building in camden there is a huge uh education and outreach and community program also that sits with that.
• 17:55
  Michelle: So we have a number of local school children who come in and spend time um in the discovery labs downstairs understanding a bit about stem and what it means to go to work in a biological science field, and we also put on some exhibitions.
• 18:10
  Michelle: So there's one at the minute about the brain which talks about evolution of the brain and how the connections in that have changed over time.
• 18:18
  Michelle: So it's a really fascinating place to be, and I'm very much not a scientist and I think actually, in a way, it's sort of helpful.
• 18:29
  Michelle: So we obviously have our executive committee as a whole, of which I'm a part, has a number of very clever scientists on it, a number of Nobel Prize winners who think in a completely different way, and I think that is a powerful thing, that diversity of thought.
• 18:48
  Sinead: What is it kind of a more creative way or a more innovative way, or what?
• 18:54
  Michelle: Very different, perhaps more creative.
• 18:57
  Michelle: I think it's, but not creative like a designer, creative more like a sort of practical solutions driven creativity.
• 19:08
  Michelle: So where you know people who've come from a consulting background or a big for background, you know can be quite processed edward.
• 19:14
  Michelle: People process data technology.
• 19:16
  Michelle: You know it's um, they think in a more sort of holistic way.
• 19:19
  Michelle: That is well, I just need to get from there to there.
• 19:21
  Michelle: So what's the shortest possible route to do that?
• 19:23
  Michelle: And actually I don't mind so much about whether that's repeatable or not, or auditable or any of those other things.
• 19:29
  Michelle: So you sort of put that lens onto it.
• 19:31
  Michelle: Um, but it also means that you have these bizarre days where you can have, uh, significant diplomats or uh, politicians visiting the site and you know you go around being a um, a glorified guide of the building and trying to explain some of these amazing microscopes etc.
• 19:52
  Michelle: That we have um that are funded through these joint programs across europe.
• 19:57
  Michelle: Uh, because it is a, a fantastic facility for the uk to have in the heart of london.
• 20:05
  Michelle: Yeah, absolutely, you know there's something like 65 of our um employees are international, so it's a huge melting pot of ideas and innovation and increasingly across things such as AI and use of technology in science.
• 20:22
  Michelle: So we also have some commercial partners in the building who have some space places like DeepMind, merks, heart and Dome, etc.
• 20:34
  Michelle: So, you know, scientists are able to collaborate across the discovery and research and higher education field, in addition to with corporates and translation.
• 20:45
  Michelle: So it's a it's a fascinating place.
• 20:50
  Sinead: And how much of your work in that, Michelle, is kind of stakeholder management per se, Because it sounds like there is quite a lot of that.
• 20:59
  Sinead: It sounds like you've really morphed away from the and maybe I'm wrong, I know you're the CFO, but almost morphed away from the traditional finance route and there's a lot of, as I say, stakeholder management.
• 21:10
  Sinead: There's a lot of almost selling or representing the purpose.
• 21:17
  Sinead: Is that my right at all?
• 21:20
  Michelle: Yeah, I think so.
• 21:20
  Michelle: Well, I think it's partly in being a true CFO in some respects, isn't it?
• 21:26
  Michelle: Because, yes, I do have everything from going through internal audit reports and making sure that our policies and procedures are up to date.
• 21:36
  Michelle: Of course, there's a level of that.
• 21:37
  Michelle: Excuse me, but I, unfortunately, I have a really good team who look after lots of that, and actually a lot of my role and purpose is around storytelling, is around how we take our numbers and tell a story about that to funders and to founders and to government and whomever it may be.
• 21:56
  Michelle: Um, which is really a story about investment in uk life sciences.
• 22:00
  Michelle: You know there's a.
• 22:01
  Michelle: There's a significant drive for the uk to become a um, a life sciences superpower, by 2030, so you know this needs.
• 22:10
  Michelle: Uh, there's a lot of interest in this at the moment, and actually how we connect that up with global talent is a big part of my role.
• 22:19
  Michelle: Who I'm talking to?
• 22:19
  Michelle: About how we fund ourselves, what is successful and actually where we need investment in order to do more faster.
• 22:27
  Sinead: I like that, the storytelling piece, and I think you're right.
• 22:31
  Sinead: I think any C-suite that is a huge element of their job.
• 22:36
  Sinead: You talk there about purpose and obviously the Crick Institute is hugely purpose driven.
• 22:44
  Sinead: I would work a lot in my year as president this year with the Next Gen.
• 22:50
  Sinead: That was my theme and I heard more and more and more from the younger generation now that they, whatever they go into, they need a sense of purpose and they need to feel purposeful and I think that's probably something that, as a profession, we need to ensure that we are mindful of that.
• 23:07
  Sinead: How important do you think it is A for you?
• 23:10
  Sinead: But also, do you see that coming through in the next gen important?
• 23:13
  Michelle: do you think it is a for you?
• 23:14
  Michelle: But also, do you see that coming through in the next gen?
• 23:16
  Michelle: Oh for sure, yes, um, when I left thompson, reuters and um, I actually went to work for a charity who was supported by the reuters foundation for a while, who needed cfo, and I think I had this perception of what it would be like to work for a charity or a mission-led organisation that was just A, unfounded and B wrong the quality of the people and the interesting things that you'd get involved with and how it spans all sorts of industries and the access that it gives you.
• 23:52
  Michelle: So if I think about our board, we have this phenomenal board of people who work in venture capitalists, energy, banking, politics, all sorts of fields, and so actually a mission-led organisation tends to attract all sorts of people who are brought together by this mission, which is quite different from a profit making.
• 24:17
  Michelle: You know we're there to serve our shareholders kind of environment.
• 24:22
  Michelle: So that to me has become a really important part of what I do.
• 24:26
  Michelle: But I particularly see in young people coming through the business and those who we get who come and join the team at the Crick.
• 24:34
  Michelle: You know charities don't always pay the most and so they do tend to attract people who have a strong affinity with a cause or a purpose or a mission and want to feel as though they're contributing to that.
• 24:49
  Michelle: So a lot more of my team at the moment, and you know, and how we ensure retention, that and all the rest of it is about making sure we bring to life that science and the impact that individuals in the team are having to that.
• 25:01
  Michelle: So we, you know, we have a we had a quarterly finance thing this week and we always make sure we bring one of our group leaders along to talk to us about their science, um, and they, you know, make it suitably pedestrian for a sovijan understand what's going on.
• 25:15
  Michelle: But there's, there is always that's always people's favorite part of our time together, um, because it really brings to life what's going on in that building around you.
• 25:24
  Michelle: And so you may be processing invoices day in, day out, or you may be, um dealing with management, accounts, journals, um.
• 25:32
  Michelle: But when you start to step back from that and say, well, why am I doing this and why is it important, actually you can really connect back to us because I'm supporting this person here in doing this amazing thing which could have a real life impact, either now or at some point in the future.
• 25:47
  Sinead: Yeah, yeah, I love that.
• 25:49
  Sinead: And actually there's more.
• 25:50
  Sinead: There's a bigger takeaway to that as well, not just the purpose built, but for an accountant and for any young accountant that might be listening to this podcast, I think, especially if you're in audit, it's not enough to just tick and bash.
• 26:03
  Sinead: You need to really understand the business.
• 26:05
  Michelle: You really need to understand what's going on, and I think that's something that maybe, as finance or or training of finance people, we sometimes fail to say, so I I do think that's really, really important um, because I think, particularly as we're getting more um, machine learning coming into accounting and, you know, some of the more process-led activity can be conducted elsewhere and that stuff that I would have done when I was training you know that was banking cash and whatever else and so that value-add piece of really understanding a business and making the connections between dots and thinking more holistically about its value, either to UK economy or to shareholders or to whomever it may be, in order to then understand where the areas of risk are and how you need to focus income or cost to make sure it's sustainable over time, I think that is the far more important piece and that's where you know we as accountants and are continuing to evolve to.
• 27:04
  Sinead: Yeah, I was struck with at the start of our chat and you said you know that one of the reasons there was three professions you might have gone into, but one of the reasons you went into accounting was it enabled you to do all sorts of things.
• 27:17
  Sinead: And certainly that has seems to be the story of your career to date.
• 27:22
  Sinead: Do you think you've found your niche?
• 27:24
  Sinead: Do you think not-for-profit is your niche?
• 27:26
  Sinead: Oh gosh.
• 27:29
  Michelle: I don't know I'm enjoying it at the moment, I don't.
• 27:33
  Michelle: I used to see earlier on in my career as a big believer in you know, the five year plan, the way in 10 years, or it was constantly asked of you whenever you had an annual appraisal when do you want to be in five years or 10 years?
• 27:45
  Michelle: And I think actually now I sort of I had an ambition to be a CFO, ambition to be a CFO.
• 27:50
  Michelle: So then you do that and that's not to say well, that's done.
• 27:53
  Michelle: You know you can do all sorts of things with that.
• 27:54
  Michelle: You can either be a CFO somewhere bigger, or you can be somewhere more complex, or you can do it in a different industry or whatever it may be.
• 28:01
  Michelle: But actually what I think about in terms of my career now is more around skills and how the things that I am good at I can translate into helping a leadership team in some way, shape or form.
• 28:15
  Michelle: And so, although I am an accountant, that has brought with it an opportunity to develop lots of other skills.
• 28:22
  Michelle: You spoke about stakeholder engagement earlier and actually you know this large part of my job that is around telling the story about our numbers.
• 28:35
  Michelle: The story about our numbers, um, that's a skill and it's being able to do that in an engaging way and being able to support businesses and leaders in telling their story in a way that attracts funding or retains funding or grows funding um is a really powerful thing.
• 28:46
  Michelle: So is this my niche?
• 28:48
  Michelle: Not, not necessarily.
• 28:49
  Michelle: I mean, I think the point around I have to really believe in what a business is trying to do, its mission in some way shape or form, and also in its leader.
• 29:00
  Michelle: I think so much of my role is about how I partner with the CEO or the director and you know we're very much a team and do I, do I really buy into the way in which they lead and the values that they are bringing to the organization and can I support that?
• 29:20
  Michelle: That's really important to me.
• 29:21
  Michelle: So I'm slightly more agnostic of sector in many ways, provided I can say that you know I really love and respect and I'm inspired by what they're trying to do and it's got a fantastic leader who I want to be with and I want to learn from.
• 29:42
  Sinead: Yeah, that's brilliant.
• 29:43
  Sinead: That's brilliant.
• 29:44
  Sinead: Come here.
• 29:45
  Sinead: I have to go and explore Boa Wool.
• 29:49
  Sinead: So Boa Wool is and to the listeners, that's B-O-A-W-O-O-L is the company that you have founded, and if you go onto the website, it's only gorgeous.
• 30:02
  Sinead: Tell us it's a clothing company.
• 30:05
  Sinead: Tell us about it.
• 30:07
  Michelle: Do you know?
• 30:08
  Michelle: This was sort of one of my early midlife crisis things, so a number of years ago when I turned 14.
• 30:13
  Michelle: You're of my, uh, early midlife crisis things, so a number of years ago when I turned you're too young for a midlife crisis.
• 30:16
  Michelle: I thought I must have started business by the time I'm 40, because there are all these you know things about.
• 30:21
  Michelle: You know top, top women under 30.
• 30:25
  Michelle: It all becomes about age and what you've done at what age.
• 30:28
  Michelle: I've realized now, by the way, that this is far less important, but I had thought, right, well now, well, no, I want to start a business, and I'd been spending quite a lot of time doing pattern cutting and various bits and pieces and I was thinking about, well, actually, what you know, this whole thing about passion and you know, if you're going to invest time that you already don't have, building something that you really believe in.
• 30:51
  Michelle: It's got to be something that answers a need of yours that you feel is reflected in in others also.
• 30:57
  Michelle: And, um, boa is really, and it was the initials.
• 31:01
  Michelle: At the time, I had three children and, uh, so it was the initials of three of my children.
• 31:06
  Michelle: Obviously, I spent a phenomenal amount of time deciding the name.
• 31:08
  Michelle: That's okay.
• 31:09
  Michelle: Um, I really wanted to build something that was that really felt like me.
• 31:15
  Michelle: So what it does is it's a.
• 31:18
  Michelle: It's a slightly cool play on very traditional clothing, sort of, you know, short trousers and beautiful linen shirts and that kind of thing, but what I really wanted to bring out was the Britishness of it and maybe this I was speaking about this in respect to Burberry earlier the Britishness of it and maybe this I was speaking about this in respect to Burberry earlier UK manufacturing has had a very, very difficult time, and particularly in the fashion industry, and there is lots of mills and various factories across the UK that have closed over the course of the last 10, 20 years and there is a phenomenal skill set there that is slowly being lost, and that's not to say my business is going to reinvigorate this, but it's one of a relatively small movement that is growing momentum around bringing manufacturing back to the UK and also what I was keen to do is have something that had as small an impact on the environment through the production process as possible.
• 32:12
  Michelle: So all of my fabrics are sourced here.
• 32:14
  Michelle: You know I can point to the sheep that the wool comes from that ends up being woven into fabrics that are on my tweeds.
• 32:24
  Michelle: So it's lots of little small businesses.
• 32:27
  Michelle: I chatted to people at trade fairs who set up micro mills and were working with rare breed sheep and I just discovered this whole new world of micro fashion, if you like, around that banner of slow fashion.
• 32:45
  Michelle: So, and because I had a number of young children of my own and, uh, I had a particular style, a particular way, I wanted to dress them, um that still, that wasn't sort of stuffy there's lots of these sort of traditional clothing.
• 32:57
  Michelle: Brands are very, you know, it sort of feels as though you must sit there very neatly.
• 33:00
  Michelle: Um, I have, uh, four boys who definitely do not sit there very neatly.
• 33:05
  Michelle: So I wanted things that look great but that are durable and that you can play in and you can really live your life in, um, and that you can pass down from child to child to child, you know, as they grow and evolve.
• 33:20
  Michelle: Um, I have a relatively big family, you know.
• 33:21
  Michelle: My, my sisters, all have lots of children as well, so there are a lot of cousins around and, um, subsequently, clothing tends to last many years before anywhere near being dead.
• 33:33
  Michelle: So I really wanted to build something that picked up on all of that and allowed me to design and to draw, and allowed me to meet some interesting people who were experts in a completely different industry to mine.
• 33:47
  Michelle: And what was great about it is great about it is that, you know, I started off being a complete idiot in lots of respects.
• 33:55
  Michelle: You know I knew nothing really about end-to-end manufacturing in a very, very small business.
• 33:59
  Michelle: I knew about it theoretically and I'd obviously worked in a large organizations who have supply chain set up and the rest of it.
• 34:05
  Michelle: But this is about developing one from scratch, building a website, working with people to help you design and build a website, um.
• 34:11
  Michelle: Setting up pricing structures for your own business rather than for someone else's um.
• 34:16
  Michelle: So it's.
• 34:17
  Michelle: It's a really different thing and I I spent a long time feeling completely fraudulent.
• 34:21
  Michelle: So you know you'd go along to these shows and talk to people about their amazing buttons or whatever else they were making and you sort of very shyly say, oh yes, no, I've got this.
• 34:29
  Michelle: This little business it's nothing, it's nothing.
• 34:30
  Michelle: And you realize that actually so much of the time you you sort of very shyly say, oh yes, no, I've got this little business, it's nothing, it's nothing.
• 34:33
  Michelle: And you realise that actually so much of the time you sort of talk yourself down about these things but actually it's great and I love it and I've learnt so much from doing it and I'd love for it to be bigger and more of my life I'm very passionate about it.
• 34:47
  Sinead: Oh, it's phenomenal.
• 34:48
  Sinead: I mean, do you have a team producing the garments?
• 34:52
  Sinead: Not?
• 34:53
  Michelle: that are my employees I work with, and actually they are all women.
• 34:57
  Michelle: I work with a fantastic lady who's an illustrator, who draws a lot of the little pictures that you'll see on my website and my brand logos and alphabets, etc.
• 35:07
  Michelle: Because a lot of this is about the look and feel, um.
• 35:10
  Michelle: And a fantastic lady who, uh, helps me to do newsletters and layout website um.
• 35:16
  Michelle: So, and then I have, um, some seamstresses out in East London who I work with who do really small production runs for me.
• 35:24
  Michelle: Um, because it's not you know, it's not a big business.
• 35:26
  Michelle: I can't carry loads of stock, so sometimes we'll make stuff to order um, and there's a relatively quick turnaround to that.
• 35:33
  Michelle: But they'll work with me on really small runs, um, and they're real experts, they're just brilliant, and it's that face-to-face thing, so I can drive out there and have a chat to them about um.
• 35:43
  Michelle: You know who they're working with at the minute and and you know what what's going on um, and they'll talk to me about new ideas, new designs, new things that are coming, are coming through.
• 35:51
  Michelle: So it's great.
• 35:52
  Michelle: So I work with all these experts in their field in different parts of that process, which is probably a very clunky way of doing it, but it means I get to meet lots of people.
• 36:03
  Sinead: It's brilliant and you can hear the passion in your voice.
• 36:05
  Sinead: It's obviously something that means an awful lot to you.
• 36:08
  Sinead: I have to ask son number four does he feel really aggrieved that he's not in the name?
• 36:15
  Sinead: And what are you going to do for son number four?
• 36:18
  Sinead: You're going to have to set up another company I do his.
• 36:21
  Michelle: his name starts with a p, so actually I've um.
• 36:24
  Michelle: We have a sheep as our logo so I said, well, we'll call the sheep percy, because that's his, so he gets a bit of a look in, but yeah unfortunate timing, yeah, no, so.
• 36:39
  Sinead: So look, I'm going to have to ask the question that gets asked of every successful, successful business person that has a family how do you fit it all?
• 36:54
  Michelle: in.
• 36:54
  Michelle: I mean, you just do so much.
• 36:54
  Michelle: Yeah, listen, I won't say it's.
• 36:57
  Michelle: People say, gosh, the juggle is real, it is very real, and there are absolute points in life where you feel as though you are failing at everything rather than at least succeeding at something.
• 37:09
  Michelle: But you know, each day you sort of get up and start afresh and I think what?
• 37:14
  Michelle: What keeps you going through that is the knowledge that a the time when they are young is relatively short and you know, I didn't, I knew I didn't want to pause altogether during that time, but I also really want to get time with them while they're still at these um interesting stages before they decide they no longer need mummy anymore.
• 37:36
  Michelle: So it's, it's always a challenge, because you, you know, it's relatively easy to say, well, I'm just gonna spend all my life working, um, I'm just gonna spend all my life, um, walking the dogs or whatever.
• 37:46
  Michelle: But actually the juggling is is ridiculous.
• 37:50
  Michelle: But what I do find is is I've become better over the years at asking for what I need.
• 37:56
  Michelle: So I'm very fortunate that I have a very supportive work environment where I'm allowed to work flexibly.
• 38:03
  Michelle: I have a part time working arrangement, arrangements, um, so I can manage my time in a way that means I can do the things that are really important to me with the children while still delivering what I need to.
• 38:18
  Michelle: And I think you know that the reason that works is because it's it's flexible on on both sides, so it might be a day when I'm not due to be in the office, but if I've got a board meeting, of course I'm there and of course I'm on the phone, um, but equally that can mean I'm still there for the nativity and whatever else is going on.
• 38:36
  Michelle: Um, and I think there's sort of the business, the clothing stuff.
• 38:39
  Michelle: I I do that because it keeps me sane, I love it, I love designing and I love, and so, for me to sort of feel balanced, I sort of make the time to do that.
• 38:49
  Michelle: So that's my, that's my downtime, if you like, and I guess I was fortunate that, um, when I first set it up, my youngest at the time was my fit model, because I think he was three, so, um, he would just come along to everything with me.
• 39:02
  Michelle: We forced to wear clothes all the time and so, even now the shoots that we do, um, I started off being some of my children are too old to wear my stuff now because it goes up to age 10.
• 39:15
  Michelle: But uh, they they come along and support in other ways so they'll help getting the other models ready and, um, and it's, yeah, it's good you can.
• 39:23
  Michelle: You can fit it all in with one.
• 39:24
  Michelle: And I think the thing that I've learned is not to shy away from the fact that I have a family.
• 39:29
  Michelle: And I know when I applied for the role at the Crick, I originally joined as an interim and right at the start of my CV it says mother of four.
• 39:43
  Michelle: And my now boss looked at that and I remember the interview, said to me gosh, I thought you were terribly brave putting that right up front in your CV.
• 39:51
  Michelle: And it really made me look because, um, most people would not mention that or would be quiet about it, thinking that it may detract from the fact that they can do a good job.
• 40:03
  Michelle: But she said you know, he said well, I actually took that as if you're saying this up front, you're obviously confident enough about your ability to deliver your job well, despite having all this other stuff going on.
• 40:15
  Michelle: And actually that to me says it's you know, you're able to juggle a lot of things at once and still be successful in that, and so there's you know there's skill in that and appreciated this sort of upfront nature of it, and I like to be as open as possible about you know, if I need to leave early or not go to a board and or whatever it may be, because I've got things to do with the children, I will definitely not shy away from saying that's the reason I'm going.
• 40:42
  Sinead: That is brilliant, and I think the importance of that can't actually be missed, because I know when I was a younger charge count younger accountant and I would have my kids are a bit older now, but when they were younger I'd do stupid things like you know leave the jacket on the back of the seat and nip home and try and feed the baby and then come back in to work and what I didn't realize was that it's such a bad role model to people looking at you.
• 41:07
  Sinead: So what you're doing is a fantastic role model and well done and and thank you to for all on behalf of all the women and men.
• 41:16
  Michelle: Well, I think the reason that you do that is because we, you know, it was exactly like that when I started and, you know, had my first couple of babies and but I wasn't in a role that could have a voice to support, I suppose, in the way that I can now.
• 41:31
  Michelle: So, you know, I have a team now.
• 41:33
  Michelle: I have a voice in that and I can support people to work more flexibly and to be more open about the reasons why they need to do that, be it children or other responsibilities, whatever they may be.
• 41:42
  Michelle: But I'm a big believer in you know we were speaking about the juggle earlier.
• 41:47
  Michelle: The reason that works is because I don't think about it.
• 41:50
  Michelle: As you know, people talk a lot about work-life balance.
• 41:52
  Michelle: Actually, it is just life.
• 41:54
  Michelle: It is life Part of my life is being at work and that gives me a certain sense of purpose but is a part of a broader life.
• 42:03
  Michelle: It's not a separate bucket over there and I think once you sort of get your head around that the sort of melding of the world together into your life makes more sense yeah, no, absolutely, um, absolutely.
• 42:17
  Sinead: I'm going to begin to start wrapping it up, but as I'm listening to you, I was, I had in my head that that really your name should be a creative accountant, but of course that has all sorts of connotations to it, so I couldn't really.
• 42:28
  Sinead: But I know, I know, but you do have that wonderful mix of you know, the create, the creation, the creativity and the design, and I know you're a board member on the photographer's gallery, which which is it, does it, it does it, do what it says on the tin.
• 42:46
  Michelle: I mean yeah, and actually that's what I was doing, doing this morning with signing off our accounts at the moment.
• 42:52
  Michelle: So, yeah, the Photographer's Gallery is the home of photography in the UK.
• 42:57
  Michelle: In many ways it's a.
• 42:58
  Michelle: We have a site in Soho and it's a wonderful, wonderful place and I've been involved with them for about four and a half years now and I love it.
• 43:07
  Michelle: That again gives you know, speaking before, about your career and things you do through work, giving you access, and I guess what that has given me is access to these phenomenal artists and exhibitions internationally that I can go to and discuss photography with people and learn about a different media, and I love that.
• 43:28
  Michelle: I love that accountancy can can do that for you because it means you meet the most extraordinary people and although your angle is not not necessarily a creative one, it's, you still play a role in that.
• 43:44
  Michelle: You know so it's.
• 43:45
  Michelle: And what that gives me as well is this you know this sense of perspective Gives me as well as this.
• 43:50
  Michelle: You know this sense of perspective, it's a relatively small charity and it's helpful professionally to really support that view of proportionality.
• 43:59
  Michelle: So when you're thinking about, well, you know you need an accounting system.
• 44:03
  Michelle: They, you know they don't need a big ERP SAP far too big so actually it makes you, forces you, to think about what you do differently, in a way that would work for somewhere far smaller but can still bring some of the things that you've experienced as being good into that world.
• 44:18
  Michelle: So it's, it's a great thing.
• 44:19
  Sinead: Non-exec work michelle, I have so thoroughly enjoyed talking to you and I could talk to you all day.
• 44:26
  Sinead: I think you are absolutely an ambassador for what the profession can bring to someone.
• 44:34
  Sinead: I think you've smashed the perception of an accountant.
• 44:37
  Sinead: I think you said it at the start Accountancy does enable you to do all sorts of things.
• 44:42
  Sinead: You have so embraced that in your life and I just want to say thank you for talking to us and the best of luck with everything you do in the future.
• 44:49
  Sinead: We'll keep an eye out for you.
• 44:52
  Michelle: Such a pleasure.
• 44:53
  Michelle: Best of luck with everything you do in the future.
• 44:54
  Sinead: We'll keep an eye out for you.
• 44:54
  Sinead: Such a pleasure, best of luck.
• 44:55
  Sinead: And what I would say to the audience is do go on to Boa Wool.
• 44:59
  Sinead: I suspect there could be lots of little children of accountants around the world running around in those clothes.
• 45:06
  Sinead: And thanks a million again and the best of luck, thank you.