Latest / Ridiculous History / The Story of Claudette Colvin, with Nimene Wureh

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The Story of Claudette Colvin, with Nimene Wureh · Ridiculous History

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Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
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Speaker 2: Is your little eye?
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Speaker 3: Yeah?
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Speaker 4: thank you. I like to gaze into them.
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Speaker 1: If anything, I do have what they call rom com eyes,
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Speaker 1: and I appreciate that they.
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Speaker 2: Don't know what that means. It's something I made up,
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Speaker 2: like bedroom eyes. Who knows?
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Speaker 1: You know, that's up to your Particulous Historians write to
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Speaker 1: us and let us know what.
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Speaker 2: Rom com eyes are.
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Speaker 4: What Ben Bolen's eyes look like to you?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's me.
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Speaker 1: I'm going by Ben Mike check Bollin for today's episode,
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Speaker 1: and Noel, you and I have something very very special
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Speaker 1: here at the end of the year. We're gosh. We
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Speaker 1: are both avid fans of music. You know, I particularly
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Speaker 1: am a huge fan of hip hop. You are a
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Speaker 1: multi instrumentalist.
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Speaker 4: And we both go out for history occasionally, you know,
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Speaker 4: every sort of talk about it from time to time.
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Speaker 4: Every yes, one hundred percent. I do like to make
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Speaker 4: beats in my spare time, and you also have been
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Speaker 4: known to drop some firebars in your spare time time
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Speaker 4: to Oh my gosh, thank you, I'm twitter painted.
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Speaker 1: This is also this is also the time for us
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Speaker 1: to say that we might be working on a little
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Speaker 1: music off the books together. True, but we are doing
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Speaker 1: something song related today, an exploration that we are so
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Speaker 1: excited about. We are this is a true story. We
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Speaker 1: are hanging out with the creator, the host, I dare say,
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Speaker 1: the musician behind the fantastic podcast Historical Records.
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Speaker 2: Noel.
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Speaker 1: Can you help me with the introduction here?
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Speaker 2: Boy? Can I?
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Speaker 4: Ever? We love to welcome to Ridiculous History, the wonderful
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Speaker 4: and nemone ware of Historical Records Fame. Yeah, we're really
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Speaker 4: good at intros, aren't we, Neminy. It's like sort of
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Speaker 4: our thing. We don't even need to. We don't even
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Speaker 4: need to go on from here. We'll just like let
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Speaker 4: it lie with the introne. I'm kidding, Nemini, Welcome to
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Speaker 4: whatever this show is called. This is called ridiculous History
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Speaker 4: is what this is called.
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Speaker 5: Thank you having me, very exciting me here.
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Speaker 2: Of course, So you know, Ben kind of set it up.
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Speaker 4: You know, Historical Records is a I guess it's been
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Speaker 4: described to me often as history with a beat. It's
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Speaker 4: a podcast kind of created in conjunction with the Wonderful
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Speaker 4: Story Pirates kind of children's podcast network company production House
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Speaker 4: and also Questloves production company and yourself. And I've described
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Speaker 4: it to many folks. It's sort of like a almost
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Speaker 4: like an audio hip hop themed Yo Gabba Gabba that
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Speaker 4: very much leans on history. And I hope you take
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Speaker 4: that as a compliment, and I think Yo Gabba Gabba rules.
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Speaker 5: It does.
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Speaker 3: I definitely that was definitely my show back in the day.
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Speaker 3: I've never heard it described like that. I hope you
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Speaker 3: don't mind.
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Speaker 5: I think I'm gonna steal it.
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Speaker 1: Oh steal away, an explosive fusion of hip hop and history,
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Speaker 1: described as Taylor made for music loving kids and families,
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Speaker 1: and to be honest, a. When I was hearing some
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Speaker 1: of these episodes earlier, I started sending them to my
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Speaker 1: nieces just to just.
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Speaker 4: To let kids know that I'm sure, take you important.
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Speaker 4: It's important to let to remind them occasionally. But you know,
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Speaker 4: it's neat because it really is something that is, you know,
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Speaker 4: certainly appealing to kids, but it has such a broad
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Speaker 4: appeal to adults as well, because there's so much stuff
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Speaker 4: kind of little Easter eggs hidden that might fly over kids' heads,
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Speaker 4: but it's just really multi layered and just an absolute
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Speaker 4: joy to listen to. Can you tell us a little
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Speaker 4: bit about kind of how this came together and and
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Speaker 4: sort of how your role is sort of solidified in
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Speaker 4: this in this world of historical records.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, so historical records, as you mentioned, it came it's
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Speaker 3: from the beautiful mind of the people at Story Priors,
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Speaker 3: Lee Overtree, myself, questlove Jonathan Glickman, and so it was
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Speaker 3: maybe it was like, I feel like during the pandemic,
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Speaker 3: maybe right after the pandemic. So a few years ago
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Speaker 3: we came to me with this idea of this new
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Speaker 3: project that he had coming together and wanted me to
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Speaker 3: audition to be the host and I think at the time,
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Speaker 3: I had been doing story parts and voiceover for a while,
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Speaker 3: which was never a lane I thought I would go into.
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Speaker 3: And I wanted to be like an actress, like I
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Speaker 3: wanted to do theater.
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Speaker 5: I wanted to do TV.
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Speaker 3: So I was like, Okay, I need to like take
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Speaker 3: a break from the voice over and focus more on
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Speaker 3: this other stuff.
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Speaker 5: So at first I was like, no, I don't want
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Speaker 5: to audition.
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Speaker 3: And so then he comes back a few months later
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Speaker 3: and it's just like, Niminie, can you just please just
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Speaker 3: send me to anything, just send me whatever, and like
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Speaker 3: send me something. And then just because I lovely, he
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Speaker 3: such just media, I was like fine or whatever. So
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Speaker 3: then I just recorded some stuff I was having fun,
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Speaker 3: sent it in and he's like, great, Jonathan.
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Speaker 5: Glickman wants to meet you. And I was like, oh, okay, great.
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Speaker 3: So I was actually I was babies. I was a
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Speaker 3: nanny at the time, and I was at work and
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Speaker 3: the mom she was she worked from home. So I
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Speaker 3: was like, hey, like, is it okay? I have this interview?
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Speaker 3: Can you like take the baby for like ten minutes?
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Speaker 3: So I kept like have this interview and she was
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Speaker 3: so amazed. She was like oh my god, of course,
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Speaker 3: So she took the baby and they went in the
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Speaker 3: living room, and then I just like had an interview
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Speaker 3: with Jonathan Gickman and with Lee and with Jamie Sokka,
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Speaker 3: who's also like the creator of story parts with Lee,
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Speaker 3: and then I mean it just went really well. And
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Speaker 3: then from there I kind of just I got the job.
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Speaker 3: And then we started brainstorming on what did we want
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Speaker 3: it to look like, what is the format, what are
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Speaker 3: our themes, like, how who are the people we want
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Speaker 3: to talk about, and what is the message we want
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Speaker 3: to you know, all the background stuff. And then do
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Speaker 3: I want to also be a writer, and like what
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Speaker 3: does my role look like as the producer creat a producer?
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Speaker 5: And so then we talked.
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Speaker 3: About all of that, and then I mean then we
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Speaker 3: just like started Roland and I wrote I think I
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Speaker 3: wrote the first.
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Speaker 5: Song of my calaued it coman song. I wrote that
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Speaker 5: like two three years ago.
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Speaker 3: It's been a second and so yeah, and so that's
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Speaker 3: that's how it came about and how I became a
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Speaker 3: part of it.
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Speaker 4: Pandemic kind of created a time warp for all of us.
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Speaker 4: It's a little hard to even envision a boy.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, and uh. I would also love to share a
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Speaker 1: couple of fun facts. Not to put you too much
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Speaker 1: in the spotlight here, but uh, nimini, so we could
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Speaker 1: get to know you. I am incredibly curious in your
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Speaker 1: background as a polyglot. Is it true that you speak
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Speaker 1: for languages?
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Speaker 5: It is true.
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Speaker 3: I guess I can say that I'm proficient in three
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Speaker 3: and the fourth is like a beginner intermediate.
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Speaker 2: Oh that's great.
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Speaker 1: I'm total at three and the first one i'm proficient
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Speaker 1: and mildly is Irish, so I'm not that great at
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Speaker 1: the one I mean.
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Speaker 4: And I alsoy you know, I was once a small
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Speaker 4: German boy, as I said on the show, and I
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Speaker 4: was born in Germany and went to proper German kindergarten.
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Speaker 4: But I think I probably still barely speak German at
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Speaker 4: a kindergarten level.
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Speaker 2: So what are the ones you're proficient in?
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Speaker 5: So I'm proficient? I mean obviously I always say English
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Speaker 5: because you know that a number.
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Speaker 1: Counts, it counts.
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Speaker 2: Every win's a win.
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Speaker 5: Yeah, and then French. French is when I started learning. Second,
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Speaker 5: I love French, oh my god.
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Speaker 3: And in Spanish, you know the basics, because also my
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Speaker 3: brother's like girl, well, fiance longtime part or as Mexican,
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Speaker 3: and she always spoke Spanish to be growing up, so
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Speaker 3: I just like learned.
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Speaker 5: From her and then I started living Korean during the pandemic.
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Speaker 2: Oh no, pandemic handle I love it. Yeah, hand goal
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Speaker 2: the alphabet.
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Speaker 3: Oh yes, I'm not that proficient.
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Speaker 2: Well we're all doing but that's incredible.
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Speaker 4: So, you know, the creative side of it super interests
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Speaker 4: me because I mean it is like any kind of
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Speaker 4: show like this is going to have a lot of
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Speaker 4: folks involved.
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Speaker 2: But what did that.
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Speaker 4: Kind of creative participation sort of end up becoming, you.
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Speaker 5: Know, for you with the with historical records.
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Speaker 4: With the show, Yeah, I was like, you know how
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Speaker 4: like like how much were you involved in the songwriting,
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Speaker 4: the day to day creation and also we're picking the
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Speaker 4: picking the historical figures that you guys wanted to cover.
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Speaker 5: Yeah, oh yeah, definitely I think I was.
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Speaker 3: I was very involved in the process, especially with like
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Speaker 3: at the way beginning a figure, as I saying before,
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Speaker 3: like the themes and what we wanted to do and
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Speaker 3: like how we wanted to format it and like how
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Speaker 3: we wanted my character to be because I also have
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Speaker 3: a character Niminy on story prior its who is different
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Speaker 3: from this character Niminy on Historical Records.
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Speaker 5: So then we were talking about like.
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Speaker 3: Bouncing around ideas of do we want her to have
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Speaker 3: a sidekit, and what do we want the sidekick to
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Speaker 3: look like and such, and just doing research on people that.
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Speaker 5: We wanted to talk about in the podcast.
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Speaker 3: Doing going through the scripts, working at making edits, making comments,
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Speaker 3: listening to the drafts.
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Speaker 5: I'm a part of like every part of.
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Speaker 3: It, but I'm especially part of the songwriting portion the
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Speaker 3: music because music is a first love of mine and
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Speaker 3: i love writing music, and so I've written a few songs,
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Speaker 3: a few choruses and a few full songs for the
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Speaker 3: podcast that I'm very excited about.
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Speaker 5: And yeah, I mean I'm just really involved, like everywhere.
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Speaker 1: And one thing that really stands out and differentiates Historical
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Speaker 1: Records is that there's this narrative spine of music. It
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Speaker 1: is a character in the story right each episode, it
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Speaker 1: moves us through. We were talking a bit off air,
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Speaker 1: we'd love to give people just a sample taste maybe
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Speaker 1: by nol What do you think playing the theme song?
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Speaker 2: Absolutely, Historical Records.
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Speaker 6: You are now listening to Historical.
10:33
Speaker 7: To make history, you got to have struggles to make history, you.
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Speaker 6: Got to show poised.
10:37
Speaker 3: Cannot be quiet.
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Speaker 7: Loud as a riot to make history, you gotta make
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Speaker 7: some noise.
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Speaker 4: But man, I mean just the first from the first
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Speaker 4: moment that I heard that theme song, I fully understood
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Speaker 4: what this show was about. The idea of you have
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Speaker 4: to have poise, you know, all of these notions of
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Speaker 4: the types of historical figures that you're discussing, which for
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Speaker 4: some people you might consider them kind of if we're
11:01
Speaker 4: using like hip hop terms, kind of deep cuts. Like
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Speaker 4: a lot of these folks I was not personally super
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Speaker 4: super aware of. There were a few that I was,
11:09
Speaker 4: and then more than that, ones that I that I
11:12
Speaker 4: wasn't familiar with, people like Ida tar Bell, who is
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Speaker 4: like a very important investigative journalist who was, you know,
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Speaker 4: the subject of the very first episode. Each episode also
11:22
Speaker 4: features interviews with kind of subject matter experts, and that
11:25
Speaker 4: one included a fabulous interview with Susan Orlean, who I'm
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Speaker 4: a big fan of from her work on The Orcive Thief,
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Speaker 4: which is a film that was adapted into one of
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Speaker 4: my favorite films of all time. Adaptation and just you know,
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Speaker 4: the idea of exploring some of these figures and giving
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Speaker 4: a little bit more kind of meat on the bones
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Speaker 4: for some of these folks that maybe folks have heard
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Speaker 4: of just kind of like in whispers or in little
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Speaker 4: snips and snaps here and there. But can you kind
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Speaker 4: of talk about how that aspect was so important And
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Speaker 4: it's a little hard to even choose which ones of
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Speaker 4: these figures that maybe folks aren't fully aware of to pick.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think, and what we really wanted, I mean,
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Speaker 3: which is exactly everything that you guys have been expressing
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Speaker 3: about how they're like to use your words, like deep
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Speaker 3: cuts and things and people that are just so prominent
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Speaker 3: in our everyday lives who have done things to really
12:15
Speaker 3: change how things work these days and we just don't
12:18
Speaker 3: know anything about. And so it is really tough to
12:20
Speaker 3: choose because there are so many that we don't know about,
12:23
Speaker 3: which is why we're you know, hoping to continue this
12:25
Speaker 3: and continue highlighting people in history.
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Speaker 5: But I think just.
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Speaker 3: It's really about kind of what we wanted this first season,
12:34
Speaker 3: because you know, we're still figuring it out. So what
12:36
Speaker 3: we wanted the first season to be and what it
12:38
Speaker 3: was that we wanted to express, So we wanted to
12:40
Speaker 3: start with some who with people who were maybe like
12:43
Speaker 3: people knew about them, but they didn't really know, so
12:47
Speaker 3: it didn't seem too like, too far removed from what
12:50
Speaker 3: people understand. And then you know, as we go on,
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Speaker 3: we would be more maybe a little bit more obscure.
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Speaker 1: I love that, like I've heard like someone says, oh,
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Speaker 1: I've heard the name, but I don't know the story, right,
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Speaker 1: And that's that. I think that also speaks to the
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Speaker 1: approachability here, you know, because I'm immediately sucked in right
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Speaker 1: with the with the pace and the exploration of this.
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Speaker 1: Choosing one historic figure has to be you know, an
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Speaker 1: embarrassment of riches, as they say, right, And one thing
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Speaker 1: that we are extremely excited to learn with you about
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Speaker 1: today is the true story from the civil rights that
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Speaker 1: a lot of people simply aren't aware of.
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Speaker 2: Right.
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Speaker 1: They may have heard the name Claudette col they've definitely
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Speaker 1: heard the name Rosa Parks, but they may not understand
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Speaker 1: the full detail behind these two historical figures. As you
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Speaker 1: said earlier, you have incredibly interested in Colvin well before
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Speaker 1: Historical Records becomes a show.
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Speaker 2: So we'd love to we'd.
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Speaker 1: Love to learn maybe, uh, we'd love to learn the
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Speaker 1: full story. Maybe we can start with what people know
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Speaker 1: about Rosa Parks.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, so what people know about Rosa Parks is that
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Speaker 3: she sat during the Montgomery bus boycott. She sat on
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Speaker 3: the bus in the section that was marked off for whites,
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Speaker 3: and then she refused to give up her seat for
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Speaker 3: a white woman and then she ended up being dragged
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Speaker 3: off the bus going to jail, and it started this
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Speaker 3: whole movement. What people don't know is that Claudette Colvin,
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Speaker 3: who was younger than Rosa Parks, was actually she did
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Speaker 3: it before Rosa did. So Claudette was very young, and
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Speaker 3: you know, she goes, you would go to school on
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Speaker 3: the on the bus, and so essentially essentially she just
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Speaker 3: did the same thing. She didn't get off the bus
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Speaker 3: when they asked her to, so then they dragged off
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Speaker 3: the bus and then they took her to jail and
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Speaker 3: they put her in an adult jail sale instead of
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Speaker 3: with when she's fifteen, Yes, when she's fifteen, they put
15:06
Speaker 3: her in with the adults when she was supposed to
15:08
Speaker 3: be with you know, the juveniles.
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Speaker 5: And so then her friends went ran and told her family.
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Speaker 3: Like what was going on, and then it became this
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Speaker 3: whole thing and they got her out and then as
15:19
Speaker 3: she grew up, she had to like move. She ended
15:21
Speaker 3: up having to move because of all the harassment that
15:23
Speaker 3: was coming from the white people in the area, Like
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Speaker 3: her family and her neighborhood and her community would stay
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Speaker 3: up on her block all night and like keep watch
15:31
Speaker 3: to make sure nobody was coming for her.
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Speaker 5: And she ended up having a leave and she moved
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Speaker 5: to New York.
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Speaker 3: But was what was also really interesting about her for
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Speaker 3: me is that she she had been learning she was
15:42
Speaker 3: a part of like the in in DOUAACP. She was
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Speaker 3: part of the NAACP and she was and she was
15:48
Speaker 3: a part of the group that Rosa Parks was a
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Speaker 3: part of the organized group that essentially like created or
15:55
Speaker 3: or got the Montgomery bus Boy got started.
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Speaker 5: And so Rosa Parks was one of her mentors. And
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Speaker 5: so the story.
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Speaker 3: Well as I learned, what I've learned is that she
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Speaker 3: she wasn't able to be the one that was that
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Speaker 3: became well known for it, or to be the face
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Speaker 3: of the movement, essentially because she was younger, and because
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Speaker 3: she was darker skinned, and because they just they just
16:14
Speaker 3: felt like Rosa Parks was more palatable for people that.
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Speaker 2: You know, I've been Yeah.
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Speaker 4: I mean, I've been listening to some interviews with Colvin,
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Speaker 4: who is still alive with us thankfully and as an
16:25
Speaker 4: absolutely delightful human being. And there was a piece on
16:28
Speaker 4: I think it was CBS News. It was like one
16:31
Speaker 4: of the morning show segments where you know, when she
16:34
Speaker 4: was arrested, they basically threw the book at her and
16:37
Speaker 4: accused her of all kinds of, you know, felonies, including
16:40
Speaker 4: like attacking police officers. She was accused of swearing at
16:43
Speaker 4: them and clawing them and all of these horrible things
16:46
Speaker 4: that she of course did not do. And then ultimately
16:51
Speaker 4: a lot of those you know, more heinous kind of
16:54
Speaker 4: charges were stripped due to you know, the NAACP's actions
16:58
Speaker 4: and lawyers and things like that that were later, but
17:01
Speaker 4: that charge that remained of her getting arrested, it did
17:07
Speaker 4: remain on her record up until about three years ago
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Speaker 4: a she petitioned. That was during the Floyd the George
17:15
Speaker 4: Floyd riots and protests. She decided she wanted to get
17:19
Speaker 4: that stricken from her record, and she petitioned to do that,
17:22
Speaker 4: and the judge who had that stricken from her record expunged.
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Speaker 4: They meet for the very first time on this CBS
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Speaker 4: Morning segment, and it was just the sweetest thing. She's
17:32
Speaker 4: just so grateful and she barely knows what to say,
17:35
Speaker 4: and it is an African American man, and I think
17:38
Speaker 4: that was just a moment that was really powerful for
17:40
Speaker 4: both of them to have that meeting. So that was
17:43
Speaker 4: just again seeing her personality and how she kind of
17:45
Speaker 4: explained the situation. But one thing I thought was really interesting.
17:48
Speaker 4: We've talked in the past about women's suffrage movements, and
17:50
Speaker 4: there was a whole period where women would wear these
17:54
Speaker 4: sharp hat pins or hair pins in their hair, and
17:57
Speaker 4: so if they were attacked by men, they would have
18:00
Speaker 4: way of defending themselves. And Colvin talks about when she
18:03
Speaker 4: was incarcerated, how she wished she had one of these
18:06
Speaker 4: because she didn't know, you know, what was going to
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Speaker 4: happen to her in this adult jail when she was
18:10
Speaker 4: locked up, and how she was scared to fall asleep,
18:13
Speaker 4: you know, less she be assaulted.
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Speaker 2: So I mean, this is all these.
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Speaker 4: Stakes are very very high for this young woman who
18:20
Speaker 4: is obviously very brave and put herself in this situation.
18:25
Speaker 4: I'm just wondering, you know how you see that kind
18:28
Speaker 4: of legacy. As she's talking about this stuff, you know,
18:30
Speaker 4: thinking about this so many years back, she said, she
18:32
Speaker 4: remembers the click of the key in the.
18:35
Speaker 2: Jail cell and all of that. I don't know.
18:37
Speaker 4: It's just the legacy of it is so fascinating to me,
18:39
Speaker 4: and it's so neat that we can still hear this
18:41
Speaker 4: directly from her. I was wondering if you'd seen any
18:43
Speaker 4: of those interviews or kind of explore more of how
18:45
Speaker 4: she looks back on it today.
18:48
Speaker 3: I haven't done much since since writing the song about
18:52
Speaker 3: more research on cloud it, so I haven't actually seen
18:54
Speaker 3: the interview, but I will definitely look it up after.
18:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, I highly recommend it's a great watch.
18:59
Speaker 1: And let's go to another thing, because I know a
19:02
Speaker 1: lot of our fellow listeners are going to be curious
19:04
Speaker 1: on this one. Nimini, there's something you said which is
19:10
Speaker 1: I think a very troubling aspect of the story. How
19:14
Speaker 1: Colvin ended up getting for lack of a better word,
19:18
Speaker 1: sidelined right, how she became a deep cut despite doing
19:23
Speaker 1: something so heroic. From what I understand, it's very important
19:27
Speaker 1: that we make this clear for the audience. Colvin was
19:32
Speaker 1: Colvin became a victim of attempts at PR or branding campaigns, because,
19:38
Speaker 1: as you said, there was the skin color issue as
19:43
Speaker 1: the movement leader saw it, and perhaps even more importantly,
19:47
Speaker 1: the fact that she was unmarried and pregnant at the time.
19:51
Speaker 1: When we talk about this internal decision for folks to
19:58
Speaker 1: sort of orchestrate Rosa Park in place of this earlier
20:03
Speaker 1: person who did the same thing, what can we learn
20:08
Speaker 1: about I mean, it seems like very morally gray kind
20:13
Speaker 1: of decision. What do you think was going on? And
20:17
Speaker 1: perhaps do we do we agree or disagree with the
20:21
Speaker 1: reasoning of the movement leaders?
20:23
Speaker 5: Oh?
20:24
Speaker 3: Man, that is the question that's I want to say.
20:29
Speaker 5: I don't know.
20:29
Speaker 3: I hope this doesn't sound bad, but I feel like
20:32
Speaker 3: I would say I like, morally obviously I would disagree,
20:38
Speaker 3: but I think just realistically, with how the world, how
20:43
Speaker 3: America works, and the time in which everything was happened,
20:47
Speaker 3: I would say I agree. I think you know, as
20:50
Speaker 3: a dark skinned black woman in America, colorism is very
20:52
Speaker 3: real and I experienced different treatment, and I have experienced blatant,
20:58
Speaker 3: just like microaggressions and racism compared to the lighter, my
21:01
Speaker 3: light of skin black women. And so I recognize that
21:05
Speaker 3: if in a way, especially during that time. You know,
21:08
Speaker 3: if you want a certain thing to move forward, you
21:10
Speaker 3: have to think about what's best for the mission and
21:13
Speaker 3: what's best like what's going to get people, what people
21:15
Speaker 3: are going to pay attention to. And I think because
21:18
Speaker 3: they already don't pay attention to darker skinned people and
21:21
Speaker 3: didn't see them for us as humans at the time,
21:25
Speaker 3: that it might have been more difficult to push a
21:28
Speaker 3: message across.
21:30
Speaker 5: So yeah, that's what I would say. I think that's
21:32
Speaker 5: a tough one.
21:33
Speaker 4: I know, No, I'm totally with you, and the way
21:35
Speaker 4: you guys handle it on historical records, I think is
21:39
Speaker 4: really admirable because you do address that question, you do
21:42
Speaker 4: address that kind of moral gray area. But at the
21:44
Speaker 4: end of the day, it is sort of about you know,
21:47
Speaker 4: it's and I say, Claudette knew that this decision was
21:51
Speaker 4: important and understood that, you know, that she needed to
21:55
Speaker 4: take that back seats and that it was important for
21:57
Speaker 4: someone maybe that was had that prominence, was a little older,
22:01
Speaker 4: was part of the NAACP, be that kind of face
22:03
Speaker 4: of the movement. So I don't know, I just think
22:05
Speaker 4: that calculation, while maybe question easy to question or easy
22:09
Speaker 4: to kind of look sideways at, made perfect sense at
22:12
Speaker 4: the time and maybe maximize the.
22:14
Speaker 2: Impact of the movement.
22:16
Speaker 4: And then of course Claudette did ultimately get her due
22:19
Speaker 4: and was very well respected within the movement, even though
22:23
Speaker 4: she may be overshadowed big picture historically speaking, you know by.
22:26
Speaker 1: Rosa Parks, and Rosa Parks being the mentor to Claudette
22:30
Speaker 1: is also or a mentor is also another part of
22:34
Speaker 1: the story. There's a there's that famous quote that Rosa
22:39
Speaker 1: Parks made after the fact, and she said, if the
22:42
Speaker 1: White press got a hold of that information, meaning the
22:45
Speaker 1: personal details about Claudette's life, they would have had a
22:48
Speaker 1: field date. They call her a bad kid, her case
22:52
Speaker 1: wouldn't have a chance. So there's also I think this
22:56
Speaker 1: argument that they they may have said they were in
23:00
Speaker 1: some way protecting this kid. You know, this is a child.
23:04
Speaker 1: We have to remember that. It's it's a fascinating story,
23:08
Speaker 1: and I know we got to as you said, Noel
23:11
Speaker 1: the the judge who expunged that that conviction, way after
23:17
Speaker 1: the fact. But could you tell us then how you
23:21
Speaker 1: personally first began learning about Colvin's story.
23:25
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I actually learned a little bit about it before,
23:30
Speaker 3: like years before the podcast. So my mom my mom
23:35
Speaker 3: was in prison for a while, and so she was
23:38
Speaker 3: a part of this writing group and she was assigned
23:43
Speaker 3: a project to write about a historical figure, and lo
23:46
Speaker 3: and behold, she chose Claude Covid. And so, you know,
23:49
Speaker 3: when we would have our phone calls, like she would
23:52
Speaker 3: she would tell me about like what she had been
23:54
Speaker 3: learning about Claude, and I was like, oh my god,
23:56
Speaker 3: like wait, wait a minute, I thought it was Rosa Park.
23:58
Speaker 3: So then so I started to learn about from my
24:00
Speaker 3: mom through her writing projects, and so and then after that,
24:07
Speaker 3: when and and then I just learned more about her
24:09
Speaker 3: as I was recording the episode and looking at all
24:11
Speaker 3: the research and to write the song about her.
24:20
Speaker 1: And with this too, this is something that I think
24:25
Speaker 1: is brilliant about historical records. It is all too easy
24:29
Speaker 1: when we're learning about history to feel that we're forced
24:33
Speaker 1: to interrogate dusty tones. You know, there's someone lecturing time
24:38
Speaker 1: and date to you names of people that we might
24:41
Speaker 1: not ever meet. But historical records brings history alive by
24:47
Speaker 1: doing a psychological thing that I'm quite a fan of,
24:52
Speaker 1: which is encoding information through music. Could you tell us
24:57
Speaker 1: a little bit about your songwriting process on historical records
25:02
Speaker 1: and how how you guys encapsulate uh these these deep
25:07
Speaker 1: cuts of history in a way that's approachable again to
25:10
Speaker 1: even like my six year old niece thinks I'm cool
25:13
Speaker 1: to get that.
25:19
Speaker 3: So my songwriting processes it like differs, but specifically for
25:22
Speaker 3: this song. So I get I get a research packet,
25:26
Speaker 3: like someone does a lot of research. And then I
25:28
Speaker 3: get that packet and then I go through. Well, first,
25:32
Speaker 3: you know, they were like, hey, do.
25:33
Speaker 5: You want to write this song about Claudic Cole?
25:34
Speaker 3: And I was like, one second, let me see about
25:36
Speaker 3: google is and yeah.
25:38
Speaker 5: So then then I'm like, yeah, oh, I got you,
25:39
Speaker 5: so cool.
25:40
Speaker 3: And so I look through the research packet that they
25:42
Speaker 3: give me and then I create my own own I
25:46
Speaker 3: create my own document and then I'll put like the
25:50
Speaker 3: information that I feel like I would want to include.
25:52
Speaker 5: In a song, I'll put that on my document. And
25:53
Speaker 5: then I go and I do my own.
25:55
Speaker 3: Research, listen to her interviews and do everything I need
25:58
Speaker 3: to do, and also get my my own research and
26:00
Speaker 3: put it in the document as well. And then I
26:02
Speaker 3: go through and I'm like, okay, well, what's a theme?
26:04
Speaker 3: What were the things that stuck out to me in
26:07
Speaker 3: this research and in her story and then what like
26:09
Speaker 3: what can I create from that?
26:10
Speaker 5: And so I actually wrote two songs for Claudette.
26:14
Speaker 3: The first one I wrote was it was it was slower,
26:18
Speaker 3: It was more like jazzy, like bluesy at a James style,
26:23
Speaker 3: and it was about and it was more about like
26:26
Speaker 3: the particular moment of her being pulled, dragged off of
26:32
Speaker 3: the bus and taken to jail. So it was about
26:34
Speaker 3: that specific that day. And so then I like sent
26:37
Speaker 3: it over and they're like, oh, this is great. And
26:39
Speaker 3: then I got really sick. I was really sick, and
26:42
Speaker 3: I was in bed for like a day and I
26:44
Speaker 3: was listening to the song and I was like.
26:46
Speaker 5: I was like, I think this needs to be like
26:47
Speaker 5: more upbeat, like this is for kids.
26:49
Speaker 3: I like this song and for me that lay down
26:51
Speaker 3: the list do but this is I needed like keep
26:53
Speaker 3: in mind my audiences. And so I was like, you
26:55
Speaker 3: know what, let me like bake something more a beat.
26:57
Speaker 3: And also like, let me just wrap this is a
26:59
Speaker 3: hip podcast. Why am I trying to do.
27:01
Speaker 5: Blues right now?
27:02
Speaker 3: I could do that another time, like, so I was like,
27:04
Speaker 3: let me just do some rapping. So then I went
27:06
Speaker 3: back into my document got more research, and I was like, okay,
27:09
Speaker 3: so there's not like enough essentially here. I mean, I
27:13
Speaker 3: could have stretched it, but I don't like to like
27:15
Speaker 3: make things like I don't like fluff. So I was like,
27:17
Speaker 3: there's not too too much. There's a lot there, but
27:19
Speaker 3: too much for like a full like three and a
27:21
Speaker 3: half four minute song with me talking really fast. So
27:23
Speaker 3: I was like, Okay, then what else can I talk about?
27:25
Speaker 3: Let me just talk about her entire life. Great, because
27:27
Speaker 3: I think her life is so interesting. So I was like, great,
27:29
Speaker 3: she got the sister, she was adopted. Like I was like, oh,
27:31
Speaker 3: there's all these things that like I think are cool
27:33
Speaker 3: to also humanize her, and it's like she's not just
27:37
Speaker 3: the being dragged off the bus and being and not
27:39
Speaker 3: being a part of the movement, and she's also like
27:43
Speaker 3: a whole entire human being who had a life before
27:45
Speaker 3: this and who had a life after this.
27:46
Speaker 5: So I was like, let's just humanize her and let's
27:48
Speaker 5: do that. So then I just like wrote it.
27:50
Speaker 3: I wrote it in a few hours, and then I
27:52
Speaker 3: recorded it in my closet and then I just sent it.
27:54
Speaker 5: Over and then they were like.
27:55
Speaker 2: Meminy, this is amazing.
27:59
Speaker 5: Okay, the other side. I spent like weeks on it, and.
28:04
Speaker 2: That's how the inspiration goes, you know.
28:06
Speaker 4: I mean like you just in like a moment where
28:08
Speaker 4: something hits you and you just kind of churn it
28:09
Speaker 4: out like in a heartbeat. And I think it really
28:12
Speaker 4: shows because this song that we're going to hear in
28:15
Speaker 4: a bit is just kind of, you know, full of inspiration,
28:18
Speaker 4: and you know, it does make me kind of look
28:20
Speaker 4: back to at some of Colvin's kind of quotable quotes,
28:24
Speaker 4: and there's one in particular that she says a lot
28:27
Speaker 4: in interviews and then I really love and that has
28:29
Speaker 4: a poetry to it as well, she says when asked,
28:32
Speaker 4: like why she didn't get up from that seat, because
28:34
Speaker 4: it's crazy too.
28:35
Speaker 2: They apparently it was not only it wasn't.
28:37
Speaker 4: Just one seat, it was four seats because like whites
28:42
Speaker 4: and our blacks were black people were not allowed to
28:44
Speaker 4: sit next to or adjacent to white people, so she
28:47
Speaker 4: had to give up four.
28:48
Speaker 2: Seats, which is just bonkers.
28:50
Speaker 4: And when asked why she didn't want to get up,
28:52
Speaker 4: she said, history glued me to the seat. I felt
28:56
Speaker 4: like sojourner Truth was pushing down on one shoulder and
28:59
Speaker 4: Harriet Tubman was pushed down on the other saying sit
29:02
Speaker 4: down girl, and I was glued to my seat. I
29:05
Speaker 4: don't know, there's just something powerful and really expressive about that.
29:09
Speaker 4: That kind of I think sums the whole thing up.
29:10
Speaker 4: And I think you achieved that same kind of poetry
29:13
Speaker 4: in your.
29:13
Speaker 5: Song Oh thank You. Yeah.
29:17
Speaker 3: I was very inspired by that because in the like
29:19
Speaker 3: in the first song, I did use a lot of
29:20
Speaker 3: her quotes from interviews and I put them in there,
29:23
Speaker 3: and that was a big one where I was like,
29:25
Speaker 3: I also wrote a line on that as well, because
29:27
Speaker 3: I just thought I.
29:27
Speaker 5: Was very inspired by that, because I don't know, just.
29:31
Speaker 3: To be so young and to be so confident, so
29:33
Speaker 3: headstrong and just like know what you want and know
29:35
Speaker 3: that you're not being treated right, and to be able
29:37
Speaker 3: to stand up for that.
29:38
Speaker 5: That's just like that. I feel like you don't come
29:41
Speaker 5: across that.
29:42
Speaker 2: Yeah.
29:42
Speaker 1: It's one of those things that people with a benefit
29:47
Speaker 1: of retrospect will imagine themselves doing, you know, to look
29:51
Speaker 1: back and say, oh, I could have I would have
29:54
Speaker 1: done that. But all too often in the moment, we
29:59
Speaker 1: we see that what people like to think of themselves
30:03
Speaker 1: doing versus what they will do can be to very
30:07
Speaker 1: different things. One other part of Colvin's statements that really
30:12
Speaker 1: stood out in a heartbreaking way in several interviews is
30:17
Speaker 1: the context that she gives, not just the more poetic
30:23
Speaker 1: historical line of feeling glued to the seat, but she
30:26
Speaker 1: often says, look, if the lady was elderly, I might
30:30
Speaker 1: have moved, And that to me was a sort of damning,
30:37
Speaker 1: heartbreaking look at the context of the time, you know
30:41
Speaker 1: what I mean, because we get the feeling that Claudette
30:45
Speaker 1: was clearly able to discern that. You know, it's not
30:51
Speaker 1: like you're giving up your seat for someone with mobility
30:55
Speaker 1: issues or an elderly person.
30:58
Speaker 4: The very definition of the idea of privilege. I mean,
31:01
Speaker 4: that's sort of work invented. Yeah, I know, you're one
31:03
Speaker 4: hundred percent on the money there ben One thing I
31:06
Speaker 4: love too about the format of historical records is how
31:09
Speaker 4: in your segments where you have interviews with kind of
31:12
Speaker 4: subject matter experts, you have a actual facts to quote
31:16
Speaker 4: our friend Lauren vogelbab small child doing the interviewing, and
31:20
Speaker 4: you kind of moderate it really And there's a wonderful
31:23
Speaker 4: segment on the claud Ut Coleman episode where I'm sorry
31:27
Speaker 4: the young young girl's name is Escaping Me. But interviews
31:31
Speaker 4: Rock Sane Gay about kind of the civil rights movement
31:35
Speaker 4: and about being an activist. And one thing that the
31:37
Speaker 4: segment kind of leaves you with is this idea that
31:40
Speaker 4: anyone could be an activist and that you know, there's
31:43
Speaker 4: always you know, while we sometimes look at like the
31:45
Speaker 4: civil rights movement is something from the past, very much
31:48
Speaker 4: still the movement needs to persist and needs to continue,
31:52
Speaker 4: and that there is, to quote Rok Sane, you know,
31:54
Speaker 4: still a lot of work to be done. I just
31:57
Speaker 4: wonder if you see, you know, how you see that
31:59
Speaker 4: idea of anyone can be an activist, and you know
32:01
Speaker 4: you by doing this podcast, you are being an activist,
32:04
Speaker 4: and don't anything you might say to young people about
32:07
Speaker 4: how to you know, continue telling these kinds of stories
32:10
Speaker 4: and to continue standing up for what's right.
32:12
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, parting words of wisdom or anything like.
32:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, and what they take away from historical records.
32:18
Speaker 5: Yeah, okay. I never even considered myself an activist by
32:23
Speaker 5: doing this podcast. So I guess that just goes to
32:25
Speaker 5: show that I mean, if you like.
32:29
Speaker 3: Have some information, if you know, if you have some
32:34
Speaker 3: information on something and you share it in whatever capacity,
32:38
Speaker 3: whether that's creatively making your own work, writing a story,
32:42
Speaker 3: writing a song, creating a podcast, or even just like
32:46
Speaker 3: talking to your friends about about something that you're passionate
32:50
Speaker 3: about that you feel like. And activism doesn't have to
32:52
Speaker 3: be It doesn't have to be I feel like for me,
32:55
Speaker 3: I always thought activism was like I have to be
32:57
Speaker 3: in the streets, I have to be like getting shot
32:59
Speaker 3: by rubber bullets.
33:00
Speaker 5: And but I.
33:02
Speaker 3: Think it could be as simple as literally writing a letter,
33:06
Speaker 3: literally writing a letter.
33:07
Speaker 5: I feel like it could be anything simple.
33:09
Speaker 4: That's why I thought the quote was so powerful or that,
33:12
Speaker 4: you know, the piece, because it just shows how anyone
33:14
Speaker 4: can do this. It doesn't have to be this grand,
33:17
Speaker 4: you know, high minded idea of what you're talking about,
33:20
Speaker 4: like being out in the streets, you know, being directly
33:23
Speaker 4: at harm's way. It starts with just talking to people
33:26
Speaker 4: and sharing and also just in our own way not
33:29
Speaker 4: standing you know, not standing for injustice right.
33:32
Speaker 5: And I think I think also it's so cute.
33:34
Speaker 3: There's a little a quote what she said her name
33:37
Speaker 3: is escaping me as well, but with Roxane Gay when
33:40
Speaker 3: she's interviewing her and the young the little child or
33:44
Speaker 3: what you said, and Roxanne was like yeah, and she's like,
33:47
Speaker 3: there's we have a lot of work to do. But
33:49
Speaker 3: as you said, and then the little girl was like, well,
33:51
Speaker 3: how much work do we have to do?
33:52
Speaker 5: I thought it was so sweet.
33:57
Speaker 3: And then I'm like, well, now she's going to go
33:58
Speaker 3: to her friends and be like, well, you we had
34:00
Speaker 3: a lot of work to do, so let's get started.
34:03
Speaker 5: Yeah.
34:03
Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, and Roxanne almost doesn't know how to answer
34:07
Speaker 4: that because she is flummexed by that, where she's like,
34:10
Speaker 4: I asked myself this every single day, and it's like,
34:13
Speaker 4: you know, while you don't want to let the weight
34:15
Speaker 4: of the negative things in the world kind of crush you,
34:18
Speaker 4: you know you do need to kind of always be
34:20
Speaker 4: moving forward, always be asking questions and never standing for injustice,
34:26
Speaker 4: you know, and in our own way. I think we
34:28
Speaker 4: can all do that in some small way, even if
34:30
Speaker 4: we're not necessarily, you know, out there in the streets
34:34
Speaker 4: being shot at by rubber books.
34:35
Speaker 1: The way, the way I like to put it, Limity,
34:38
Speaker 1: is that the human race is a team sport. The
34:43
Speaker 1: human race is the ultimate group project, right, just like
34:46
Speaker 1: in school, and there are lessons that surround us. History
34:51
Speaker 1: is a continuing conversation. It's not really a past tense thing,
34:55
Speaker 1: and as we often say here on the show, history
34:57
Speaker 1: is way closer than it looks in the rearview mirror.
35:02
Speaker 1: We want to thank you again so much for spending
35:05
Speaker 1: time with us. We have a special treat for our
35:08
Speaker 1: ridiculous historians at the very end of this episode. But
35:12
Speaker 1: before we go off to various adventures, we have to
35:17
Speaker 1: ask where can people learn more about your work, not
35:21
Speaker 1: just with historical records, both story Pirates, your background at
35:25
Speaker 1: sketch comedy and if I'm not telling tales out of
35:29
Speaker 1: school a little bit of theater.
35:32
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, well, you can learn more about me on
35:36
Speaker 3: my website www dot Nimini dot com. And that's Nimini
35:42
Speaker 3: n as in November, I am as in March E
35:45
Speaker 3: and as in November e dot com.
35:48
Speaker 1: And folks, that is our show. We are not as
35:51
Speaker 1: they say, blowing smoke. Historical records is awesome. In full disclosure, Noel,
35:57
Speaker 1: you're affiliated with this project as well?
35:59
Speaker 2: Correct?
36:00
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I've had the absolute pleasure to work with
36:01
Speaker 4: Lee and the story Pirates, folks, and you know the
36:05
Speaker 4: Quest Love team.
36:06
Speaker 2: I didn't do anything creatively.
36:08
Speaker 4: I just helped kind of be the liaison between the
36:10
Speaker 4: outside production companies and iHeart and they've just been incredible.
36:13
Speaker 4: Lee Overstreet as a wonderful person and an absolute creative
36:17
Speaker 4: genius and such an incredible voice when it comes to
36:19
Speaker 4: telling these stories that are of course geared towards kids,
36:22
Speaker 4: but like we said earlier, absolutely applicable to so many
36:26
Speaker 4: other types of folks and walks of life. And you know,
36:28
Speaker 4: I just think it's a fabulous show and I'm really
36:30
Speaker 4: proud of what they've made.
36:32
Speaker 1: Agreed, big, big thanks to our super producer, mister Max Williams,
36:36
Speaker 1: Big thanks to Alex Williams. Spoilers, folks, listen through our
36:40
Speaker 1: thank yous, because we do have a treat at the end.
36:43
Speaker 4: Yes, Ben, it's true you had the brilliant idea of
36:47
Speaker 4: saving the best for last. This is the song that
36:51
Speaker 4: we were discussing the whole time, that Nimini wrote herself
36:54
Speaker 4: lyrically and was produced in conjunction with the team at
36:59
Speaker 4: Story Pirates and Questloves Crew.
37:02
Speaker 2: And we just are so stoked about it.
37:05
Speaker 4: Then you absolutely texted the group the moment you heard
37:08
Speaker 4: it about how.
37:09
Speaker 2: Excited you were about it.
37:10
Speaker 4: It really does have a bit of an earwormy hook,
37:12
Speaker 4: and it tells the story brilliantly.
37:14
Speaker 1: Stem to Stern some big, big thanks to the good
37:18
Speaker 1: folks at Historical Records, of course, huge thanks to Neminy.
37:23
Speaker 1: This is what we're talking about when we say education through.
37:27
Speaker 4: Music, indeed and advance less you know the usual thanks
37:30
Speaker 4: of course to our guests them anywhere, the folks over
37:33
Speaker 4: at Historical Records, Jonathan Strickland, the quister, A J.
37:37
Speaker 2: Bahamas, Jacob's the Puzzler.
37:38
Speaker 1: And so without further ado, we cannot wait to share
37:42
Speaker 1: with you Nemini's song about Claudette Colvin.
37:46
Speaker 2: We don't have to wait here. It is right now.
37:48
Speaker 2: See you next time, folks.
37:51
Speaker 7: Claude Debt that's my name, Miss Alabama. Born and raised
37:55
Speaker 7: this Montgomery to be spacistic.
37:57
Speaker 2: Hope you don't.
37:58
Speaker 7: Mind these on the ristic see your nine zero five
38:01
Speaker 7: thirty nine, the birth date of a future leaders civil
38:03
Speaker 7: rights activist, The catalyst to be Montgomery Bus Boycott again
38:07
Speaker 7: with me, Montgomery Bus Boycott, that is correct.
38:10
Speaker 6: A lot of people.
38:10
Speaker 7: Don't know about the juicy tidbit. Couldn't be the face
38:12
Speaker 7: of the movement because I wasn't ridging because of my
38:14
Speaker 7: complexion I'm never in the press, just thinking I was
38:17
Speaker 7: only fifteen, fellow with my routine.
38:18
Speaker 5: And the segregat of see.
38:20
Speaker 3: Years after that, I curve and I couldn't find work,
38:22
Speaker 3: and I.
38:22
Speaker 7: Moved to New York and nurse.
38:24
Speaker 6: It began woman. Nine before there was Claudet Gorman, and
38:32
Speaker 6: it began woman.
38:34
Speaker 1: Did you know?
38:35
Speaker 6: Did you know? I wouldn't give up my seat? Nine
38:39
Speaker 6: months before Rother he was Claude Gorman.
38:41
Speaker 7: Let me start from the beginning. My dad left, Mama's
38:44
Speaker 7: wallet was sin me see. I was born Claude that Austin.
38:47
Speaker 7: Then I went to live with my uncle and my aunt,
38:49
Speaker 7: and that's how I got the name.
38:51
Speaker 5: Calvin.
38:51
Speaker 7: Had a little sister e I was a oh that
38:53
Speaker 7: lost her to poly yoga.
38:55
Speaker 5: Only knows my pain.
38:56
Speaker 7: I was so fi yo logically strange, looking to you.
38:59
Speaker 5: Washington High School.
39:00
Speaker 7: I started going there in nineteen fifty two. I was
39:02
Speaker 7: in the city, a place I couldn't walk to, so
39:04
Speaker 7: right in the bus is what I had to do.
39:06
Speaker 7: It was nineteen fifty five. I didn't give up my seat.
39:08
Speaker 7: They called the police and they arrested in me. But
39:10
Speaker 7: I had been learning that by my ancestry. And then
39:12
Speaker 7: the youth come.
39:13
Speaker 6: Up with AAA se pain, So what said, I.
39:15
Speaker 2: Know my constradutional rights.
39:16
Speaker 7: There was an empty rubberside and he said, this isn't right,
39:18
Speaker 7: Jim cross. There's black kids to the crossing the white.
39:20
Speaker 6: We always got to be behind them.
39:22
Speaker 3: And this said, I'm like, put me off the bus.
39:24
Speaker 6: I didn't fight work fuss.
39:25
Speaker 7: I didn't feel fair because I was young, and tempt
39:27
Speaker 7: to put me in.
39:27
Speaker 3: An adult fell with no phone call.
39:29
Speaker 5: But my friends went to find my mom.
39:30
Speaker 6: And it began with me nine before they was corn
39:39
Speaker 6: And if begal with me?
39:41
Speaker 2: Did you know?
39:41
Speaker 1: Did you know?
39:43
Speaker 6: I wouldn't give up my seats?
39:45
Speaker 3: Nine? Before?
39:46
Speaker 6: Brother?
39:49
Speaker 7: One year later we had brought a versus Gail. I
39:51
Speaker 7: was one of five plaint tests talking about how the
39:54
Speaker 7: law had failed at the bust and we wasn't gonna
39:56
Speaker 7: take in the federal court. They made the decision the
39:58
Speaker 7: Supreme Court.
39:59
Speaker 6: They made that decision in.
40:00
Speaker 7: The bus segregation was against the competition.
40:02
Speaker 5: And they ended it properently. And to begin with me.
40:08
Speaker 6: Nine and the beginning with me, did you know didn't know?
40:16
Speaker 6: I wouldn't give up nine?
40:22
Speaker 7: That's my main Miss Alabama Born and.
40:25
Speaker 5: Race episode.
40:29
Speaker 6: Brithday you will nine pause again with me.
40:39
Speaker 5: Oh, I almost forgot.
40:41
Speaker 7: The city of Montgomery, Alabama, declared Mark second Claudette Colvin Day.
40:50
Speaker 4: For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
40:53
Speaker 4: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.