Latest / Thinking Class / #070 - Nuriyah Khan - Modern-Day Religious Revolution In Britain: What Does The Future Hold?

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#070 - Nuriyah Khan - Modern-Day Religious Revolution In Britain: What Does The Future Hold? · Thinking Class

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hello classmates and welcome to Thinking Class.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm John Gillam and today I'm speaking with Nuria Khan.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: Nurya is the host of the YouTube channel Holy Humanist and is a prominent ex-Muslim and women's rights campaigner, known for her fearless advocacy and outspoken views.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: In this episode, Nurya and I think out loud about her experiences as an ex-Muslim and her views on women's rights and human rights.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: We also talk about the changing landscape of Islam in Britain, the perception of institutional preference for Muslims over other religious adherents, the potential for an Islamic reformation led by Saudi Arabia and particularly Mohammed bin Salman, the role of British Muslims in public discourse, the media's treatment of Islam, and the cultural expressions of Englishness that Nurya think are so important to retain and why patriotism needs to make a comeback.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: Nurya also shares her insights on the challenges and opportunities for integration and the future of a multi-ethnic Britain, which she wants to be optimistic about, but feels like she leans towards realism, which others might read as not good.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: And you can expect much, much more.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: In the exclusive Substack Q ⁇ A, we also discuss Nuria's views on how to contain extremism in Britain, and much besides.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: So do make sure to like, subscribe, and follow the show on YouTube, your podcast platform of choice, and Substack, whereas I'm sure you've picked up paid subscribers get the opportunity to contribute questions to a special QA that I put forward to my guests, and that only you will get access to listening to.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: Let's grow Thinking Class together.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: Enjoy the show, classmates.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for having me.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: Nuria, you have made a name for yourself in one of the many dark corners of the internet, which people like you and I are inhabiting increasingly these days.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: You're an ex-Muslim, you speak out about women's rights issues and human rights more broadly, and indeed the issues that you face as an ex-Muslim and the response to you from at least certain fellow Muslims or your ex-fellow Muslims.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's fair to say there's been somewhat of a foraw in Britain recently.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: We've had the beginning of Ramadan, and some of our most uh prestigious institutions, and indeed the heads of those institutions, have opened the doors to Muslims to celebrate Ramadan and breaking iftar.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: This includes our king, Charles III.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: He opened up Windsor Castle and the Great Hall in there for an iftar.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: And uh indeed Keir Starmer and his cabinet did so in the halls in Parliament.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I believe Canterbury Cathedral has done the last couple of years too.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: Commentary on this suggests it's a big issue on some sections of the commentary app, and others say, well, this isn't an issue, this is just about uh being kind and welcoming.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: What's your take on all of this?
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, it it I wouldn't have too much of an issue if it was about being kind of kind and accommodating, um, and this was something that we saw across the board.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: But increasingly, um, what I've seen around me, especially, and given you know, uh institutions in London and across the country, as you mentioned, um, as far as the king himself, um, and the the mayor of London um with the Ramadan lights, for example, for the last couple of years, there seems to be more and more of a spotlight on Islam, Islamic practices, Islamic celebrations, and you know, the general English society having to kind of cater to and accommodate that uh across the board.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: So it was even with the whole, you know, um King Charles setting out dates and packaging Istar pack uh packages, I thought, let me just hold fire on this one because I'm assuming the same thing would be happening for Lent coming up and Easter and you know, let's just not kind of uh you know jump down that rubbit hole straight away.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: But it turns out that it is just uh a heavily, heavily uh kind of Islamic pandering that we see happening more and more.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: So obviously he didn't really do anything for Lent, and I saw people arguing that, well, fair enough, uh he's never usually come out and said anything about Lent in the past.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I thought, okay, fair enough, let those sleeping lions lay.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: But um yeah, I mean, I think a lot of this has to do with just how captured the society is and the wider society in terms of our institutions, um, when it comes to Islam, and there is no there is no kind of easing of this.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: If this was the same treatment that we saw for Hindus celebrating Holi or Diwali or things like that, or we saw the same things for like Hanukkah or Passover, it would be a bit more, you know, the fact that society and these religions are given kind of equal prevalence.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: But there seems to be this complete bending over backwards to accommodate Islam.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's even when it comes to uh politicians in power, they are they seem to be the loudest minority at the moment.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: So it is a worrying trend.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I did comment on it on my channel itself, because I thought, you know what, if if the royal family are gonna stand behind Islam in this manner, then we expect them to stand for all faiths.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I do understand that King Charles himself had said that he didn't want to be seen as the defender of the faith, but the defender of all faiths, um, which made me think even more that this was something you know he would apply in equal measure.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: But unfortunately, it is Islam that was seeing kind of be given the loudest uh backing.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: King Charles is, I think, known for his uh quite nuanced and complex philosophical worldview.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think he's uh what you call a perennialist, someone who sees that um all of the major religions contain some sort of transcendental truth and there's some overlap there.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's probably fair to say, however, that adherence to any of those religions and the common person who hasn't necessarily had the same um formation as our king probably don't see things that way uh when it comes to uh advancing the interests of their religion or being concerned about it or its supremacy.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I suppose this goes for any of them.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't want to make you a kind of a newly appointed spokesperson for a lot of people you don't know, and indeed people who are not even your fellow religionists these days.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um however, uh, you probably have more of an insight into the mind of uh someone who understands the the culture of Islam.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: What would you say the um common person, a common Muslim, might be thinking about the uh institutional uh changes that we're seeing within Britain that are seemingly leaning in favour toward Islam?
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that people will be welcoming of it?
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think they will think Britain's bending over backwards too much?
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: Will there be some who think that here comes uh here comes a great victory, or is it more uh uh an ambivalence?
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: Is this being led more by institutions than the the people?
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: What what do you think's driving all of this?
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think the nature of Islam itself, you know, so whether you're a kind of let's just say nominal Muslim um or a non-practicing Muslim, the fact that you are part of this greater Islamic religion, you are part of the Ummah, so to speak, which is you know the the the actual Islamic um I guess sorry to bring this up so early, but because Islam is so also political in its nature and it sees everything else outside of it as the other.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: So, like regardless of how entrenched you are within the fold of Islam and how practicing you are or not, um every tiny kind of step you would see is if you see the king on TV packaging dates, whether you're a heavily practicing Muslim or just kind of say I believe in Allah, you know, in my heart personally, you would celebrate that as a small win, in my humble opinion, because it is still at some level having your religion be recognized in the mainstream.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I hate to say it as well, but you're seeing your religion be being recognized in the heart of a Western democracy, essentially.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that that can not be anything but a win for a properly practicing believing Muslim and in the greater sense for Islam itself.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that every time, whether it's you know institutionally sanctioned or just a general act of kindness, or trying to a random Muslim in the street, you know, letting it be known that he's fasting or she's fasting, and somebody needs to um kind of accommodate them.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: That for them, each time that accommodation is made, they will see that as a win.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because on the flip side, for example, when you look at the Middle East, and I spent a lot of time in Saudi Arabia and Dubai where I grew up, there was there was no concessions made for non-Muslims during Ramadan.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, like everything was pandered and catered to the Muslims.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: And when we see snippets of that leaking into society here, and I'd say it's far more than just snippets within the UK society now, it's almost like I'm there's there's more of a halal balloon about the the beginning of Ramadan than there is about any other celebration.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I would go as far as to say even Christmas has been toned down to it's not been celebrated to the same extent amongst the like organizations within themselves.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: So generally for Islam, every single time it is kind of brought to the mainstream or brought to the forefront or celebrated or been accommodated for, and they see white people pandering to their needs and their religion, it most definitely will seem like a win.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: And just to kind of throw in the caveat, the reason for that is essentially because they are in this largest like mindset of trying to kind of you know have the West pander to Islam.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: So the West should not be, you know, the the greater power here.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: And Islam flexes its status in tiny little kind of moments like this, whether it's praying in unison on the streets, for example, or whether it's you know celebrating breaking the fast outside Buckingham Palace.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's those tiny things in society it's that are infiltrating ever so slowly, but they are uh kind of getting the Western mind ready for this almost slight sense of capitulation to Islam.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: So the getting the mind ready and the capitulation to Islam.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um this this sounds this sounds a little bit similar to the theme of a book by the French novelist Michel Hulebeck, he wrote a book called Submission, where the theme of the book effectively was that institutions over time start to accommodate themselves toward uh Islamic practice, cultural norms, and in the end fully flip.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, in fact, there's a whole bunch of other stuff in there around an Islamic party uh that comes along and then joins with left-wing parties to be able to topple the previous government in the next election, and then society changes.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: I suppose the reason why I bring this up is, and this question's probably coming a little bit sooner than expected, but depending on who you speak to on the street, and I think it is probably determined by their general worldview, is some will see this not necessarily as an issue, they don't necessarily see there being a direction of travel.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: This is just a what we ought to do in a multi-ethnic, multicultural, multi-religious society.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: For others, it's uh well, the direction of travel seems like it's moving more and more in one way, and what's the natural end point of this?
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so um I think from your perspective, what does the future of a multi-ethnic, multi-religious Britain doing what it's doing with regards to the institutional uh inclination towards Islam?
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: What does that look like in 10, 20, 30 years on its same uh on this same trajectory?
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it looks very, very big if we continue down this path that we're on um at this rate that we're going, especially.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: And honestly, John, when I started um my activism being an outspoken ex-Muslim, it was just because I kind of had read the sources and kind of had this revelation as to what Islam truly wants and what it actually kind of stands for.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: But I just thought, let me just kind of make some YouTube videos and let me kind of speak about it so other women don't fall into this trap of you know, essentially being uh just submissive baby making machines for this political agenda, if you will.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought that was just gonna be it, you know, inform some people about what what Islam is is actually like, the true nature of it, the general kind of war manual that the Quran is, if you look at it in the in that right sense.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: So then a call that area becomes almost like a roll call.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, it gets it gets very dark in that sense.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: But I I thought that's what it would be limited to.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then coming back to the UK and living in London and seeing how quickly things around me had changed.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: And as you said, like institutions, probably our places of work and the societies we live in, the the general mindset surrounding us, so that I'm like I'm the strange one around my entire social circles for having the views that I hold.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it just seems like such an uphill battle because of how deeply entrenched we are into this mindset that you know everything should be in the spirit of tolerance, uh, we should carry on going the way we are, and nothing needs to give or nothing needs to change.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: But I've been listening to commentators on this, and I I'm not the one, I'm not generally the one to kind of fear monger, and I tend to be a bit more of an optimist in general, but I'm also very much a realist.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: And when I hear people who are not more well-versed on these topics than myself say that Britain is heading towards civil war and things to that effect, it really kind of sends a shiver down my spine because it's not indifferent from what I see around me.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: And we've seen pockets of this where this flares up, you know, in incidents like Southworth and things like that, where these two starkly different communities go head to head, or the government just withholds information for us, albeit Kate Osama says, you know, for these reasons that were generally um valid, which is fair enough, but it is a very, very dark reality if we don't you know change something now and we don't kind of for example what America has done with since Trump has been elected, and this kind of Trump effect where you can say things that essentially sound like common sense but were deemed to be so um kind of just inflammatory beforehand.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we see the rise of the right across Europe.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: It just goes to show that people are raving this kind of common sense by saying, like, yes, if somebody has come to this country and they have sexually abused little girls and they're not from this country, why on earth should we pay to keep them here?
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: It makes no sense saying that would make you, you know, uh be a social pariah in certain contexts, even though that that sounds like a very normal thing to say.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I just this concept of you know accepting tolerance, even if they're intolerant to us, or we have to tread on eggshells because hey, Islam is just another religion and we don't go around criticizing people's beliefs for whatever reason that might be, you know, historically or whatever, or we've just gone so soft as a people's um that we're just gonna let this unfold the way it's happening.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: It the future looks very dark indeed for the United Kingdom, and I'm not surprised why people are fleeing in their droves or people are having to move.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I just think it's such a sad reality that in a country you call home, if you're having to continuously move or continuously question why you're here or how long you can stay here or the safety of your grandchildren and how they're gonna grow up, it it's it it's just it's a very kind of it brings a huge sense of despair.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: Even people like I think I was listening to uh Liz Tras talking on the matter, and she says we it would take us about 40 to 50 years to undo legally all the damage that's been done and kind of enshrined into law that is propagating all of these situations that we see play out, whether it's like mass immigration or you know, people being able to stay in this country due to their right to a family life or what have you.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, it's just I think it's high time now to to act.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I really didn't think conversations on Islam would be as relevant, or let's just say, for the sake of people saying not all Muslims, Islamism uh or the growing rise of Islamism in the UK would be such a dire threat at the moment.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you you mentioned your time uh as a uh split growing up, I suppose, in in London and then the Middle East.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: And you can find figures in the Middle East pretty influential, we'll get on to some of those in a moment, who talk about how they do not tolerate extremists in their society, and in fact, they've commented on what they can see taking place within Europe and say, how is it that you're allowing this to go on in your society?
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: And this isn't really referring specifically to Islamophobia sessions or or lights up in West London, but rather the news stories that are generally not pushed out there so much, um, but we know are happening, whether it's the Rotherham Peace scandals, all of these other things, is what are you doing allowing this to take place?
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: We would have stamped this out a long time ago.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: And um, let's stay on the Middle East for a moment, because about eight years ago, I think, uh, the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia, Mohammed bin Salman, he was, I think, at a future investment conference which Saudi Arabia had put on.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think he's repeated these comments a bit recently as well, though I couldn't find sources for them.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: But he was on stage saying that um where is the quote?
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we want to destroy Islamic extremism and coexist with other religions.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: And then he goes on to talk about how there ought to be moderation and tolerance.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: So, my question to you is Is there somewhat of the beginnings of perhaps an Islamic reformation here?
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: Or are words like this to the effect that these those saying them are that they're self-serving in some way, they're wanting to seem more moderate and tolerant than they are, or do you think that they've reached the point within their own uh imperial ambitions?
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I say imperial insofar as United Arab Emirates, Qatar, Saudi, very influential, very moneyed, they sponsor an awful lot of events all over the world, they own lots of property, they they in many respects have a uh an Arabian empire, as it were.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and there is you know these historical cycles that say when empires get to a certain level and uh they become multi-ethnic in some way, they start to liberalize.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so we've seen that with Western empires and all the rest of it.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think this is uh something that is genuinely occurring, that we might be seeing the beginning of an Islamic Reformation, a softening of some of those uh more that that more conquering uh rhetoric and and scriptural reference you've talked about, or is it something else?
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: Is that in the Middle Eastern context you were asking?
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, yes, in the Middle Eastern context, but I suppose they're also highly influential in Europe too.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess you've got Erdogan is always whipping up um Turks in in Germany um with whatever it is that he's focused on.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but there's also lots of examples of um Saudi or Qatar funding various um institutions, uh centers, all the rest of it here.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: But if we're seeing some of the rhetoric changing amongst some of the most influential leaders, is that rhetoric to be believed?
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: Is it something that suggests that there could be moderation and tolerance, or is is it something else?
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so oh it it's it's quite a long winded question, but I'll try and answer it for bestiviability.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Because there's guilty elements.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, no.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's fine.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just trying to give you a succinct answer, but I'm gonna be jumping a bit as well.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: Because obviously I think um some of these GCCs, the Gulf Corporation countries, are still very much, you know.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm looking at Qatar here when I think of funding channels, especially and Saudi Arabia back a few decades ago, and how they've already kind of done so much damage when it comes to British institutions, uh, namely universities and things like things like that, with the amount of money that they've kind of channeled into these, and we see the rise of Islamic societies and you know, who have a lot more of a kind of um extremist element to them in terms of their societies aren't just like any other you know, cookery society or reggae society at university, it comes with a huge dose of dawah, which is essentially propaganda for Islam that's that's seeped into it.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of always operating um in the background.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: But then I would say that I in my again, my humble opinion, I do think when it comes to countries like Saudi Arabia, which has been so heavily governed um in a Wahhabi kind of context with the ruling class, which were always the um uh ulema, which is the religious kind of authority which take precedence even over the monarchy, for example.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's been ruled like that for so long, and you realize how in this modern day and age that you know that stifles a lot of progress and a lot of money to be made.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: And if you look at countries like the UAE, they have put their economy and things like that to the forefront as opposed to exporting Islam per se in that same way.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I do think uh Mohammed bin Salman to some degree does want reclamation because he is quite a young king himself, and you know, he knows that Saudi Arabia would need to take some of uh like kind of take a deep out of Dubai's book or the UA's book in general, if it wants to be a key player in the global economy and if it wants, you know, tourism and things like that, which it will need to rely on because their oil is not going to last forever.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: So when I I mean some people have even gone as far as to say, and I don't know if I buy this, but they've gone as far as to say maybe deep down he is not a Muslim himself, and then he's kind of turned his back on the faith, but that would never be an outward confession that he'd be able to make.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: But I think he has taken up this fight uh against the existing status quo where it's the ulema who make all the decisions and govern the country, and he wants to push back on that because he has said some very radical things to the effect of you know, literally 80% of the hadith collection, which in Sunni Islam is very much like sacrosanct to part of your beliefs because of like essentially Muhammad's life.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: He said that that is not reliable, um, and it's not something we should follow, and about you know, 20% of that is probably accurate, and then we've got the Quran.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: And saying something even as radical as that a few years ago would have definitely had the heads roll.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but he had said it, and the kingdom is still moving in the direction.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think they've had some concerts now, they're constantly hosting snooper championships and all sorts, and you know, there's little tweaks there like, do we allow alcohol, do we not?
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: And they've they've they haven't gone that far yet.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: But I do think um as a leader, he definitely wants change.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: And there is a general growth up in the Middle East, I have seen like there is a stark difference when it comes to Arabs who like Muslim Arabs in, let's say, for example, the GCC countries versus Muslims in South Asia, and then the British Muslims that we see in this country.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the Arab Muslims in the GCC, they tend to be a lot more relaxed when it comes to their religion.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm talking about your not nominal everyday person.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because obviously they live within an Islamic state in general, and there's kind of enough of Islam governing their lives, and they really, really care about uh economics a lot more.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you've got this again, this is also a problem with Islam because it's it puts it puts Arabic and it puts Arabia on such a pedestal that if you're not, if you don't speak Arabic, first of all, you're not even classed as you know, truly understanding the religion, that's always up to question.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, you don't really belong to the land that it originated from and then it's kind of been imposed on your culture.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: So what I tend to see is that Pakistani Muslims, that my like ethnicity, Bangladeshi Muslims, um Muslims from Malaysian Muslims, Muslims from all the all other countries tend that much harder to try and support Islam or kind of you know show that they're Muslim.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: And in the UK, for example, that has really translated into riling up previous generations of British Muslims who actually hold their Muslim identity as their identity first and foremost before being British.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: And that's kind of the fight that they chosen to fight, whether it's in whatever's happening to your politically at the time, we need to take a stand and we take a stand for Islam before we would ever take a stand for this country.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I go as far to say they almost have a point to prove that they are out to um go against the West and show the West why they're so bad and why they're so wrong.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: And you see this with like, you know, casual Islam British uh Muslim scholars who go on the platforms and say, yes, we are at war with the West, or we do absolutely hate Christians and Jews because that's what Albert says, and we will continue to do so.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: And you've got figures like Majid Nawaz who come out and act as if he's all reformed and he understands the extremist line.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, the questions that can be raised as to has that really taken hold, or has he still kind of got the exact you know, battle that he's fighting?
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: But it's the whole concept of takiyya and Islam as well, that you can pretty much do anything to push forward Islam's uh goals, regardless of what you have to say to get there.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I do think the way Islam um kind of manifests itself amongst non-Arab Muslims in a Western context is very different from how Islam manifests itself with Arabs within Arab countries.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, sorry, I hope that answered your question.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: It it it does, and it's it's a good point to bring up the different um approaches to the Islamic faith, depending on where you're from geographically, because I know um Rakeeb, one of our own uh British Muslim commentators, academics, he's a practicing Muslim.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: He is uh very proud to be British.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I've had him on the podcast.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: He uh he often complains about the um the the rising influence of Islam in um in everyday life and says he would prefer to live in the country that promotes and is more open about its Christian heritage instead of suppressing it.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um and following the Rotherham uh, or at least a uh a resurfacing of the great scandal, which we call the Rotherham scandal, but it hit 50 different towns and and cities in which there have been um thousands, tens of thousands of um girls um raped uh underage and and otherwise um uh around the country by uh what have been referred to as screaming gangs, and then those who've sought to break that um that illusion, I suppose, um, or rather vague term, call it uh Pakistani Muslim uh rape gangs, is what you hear the likes of Matt Goodwin and and others say.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: And um Rakeb, who is of a Bengali origin and lives in Lucent today, has written some pieces saying, well, we can't just focus even on that country because there are specific areas of the country which are known to be very different in how they approach both their faith and uh their community relations than others.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so actually, I think he was trying to make the point that when we're thinking about immigration from uh Muslim countries, uh, or indeed thinking about the issues that we might see um with uh Islam, or he was making the broader point, just more broadly with immigration, that you actually need to get very, very specific with regards to the area of a country that they might be from, because that you you can probably predict there are going to be issues there.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um I don't I don't really know whether an immigration policy like that in Britain will ever come about, given our current approach to to immigration.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I suppose you've um you've mentioned uh that Majid Nawaz has acted as though he's a reformed character, you've brought up Takir, which is this idea of advancing Islam uh through by any means necessary, and that can be deception.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um you have been quite outspoken, I would say, on um on Muslim voices uh within Britain and more broadly.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think, and and I'm I'm paraphrasing, so you can put me right if it's misquoting, but I know you have said that unless someone has disavowed their Muslim faith, it's very hard to take what they say at face value because of those theological tenets like takir um and also because they are duty bound to advance Islam.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I suppose the reason why I brought up some of those British Muslim voices is what do you think that means for the public conversation amongst Muslims and non-Muslims?
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: Where do people go to find their information and to engage in good faith about this stuff?
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: Have you got advice?
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well, this is uh a really, really tough one, um, because like I'm sure, as you mentioned, I'm sure there are genuinely, and I can speak for my own family here as well, there are genuine um British Muslims who are really able to kind of put us a lot of what Islam says aside um in terms of you know and and of generally even willtily ignorant of what it commands and what it tells you to do.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but and they're able to kind of balance this sense of being British and loving the country that they're a part of and that they live in, and you know, essentially a country that they call home, and they're able to kind of charter that path very, very well.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I've got no qualms with British Muslims who are able to do that, and they have essentially taken Islam to be this personal religion, just the way that other people would have any personal police system.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they choose to pray behind closed doors or fast or tell the mosque or what have you.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: But my concern is, and I and I do really, I know I kind of put my put myself out there a little bit when I don't trust um British Muslims who claim to be reformed or who claim to, you know, be the spokespeople for anti-terror or counter-terrorism policies, um, and things like that, because I genuinely think if you, somebody like Majid Nawaz, for example, have seen the depth of you know what Islamic Islamism, just for the sake of argument, and and terrorism uh can do and the where it stems from and how deep rooted those sources are within the scriptures, it beggars belief that you would continue to see this as some kind of personal religion and that you could just adhere to.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why Muslims who are in high positions in authority of government as well, actually, if they are trying to back policies that are genuinely gonna be at log ahead with Islam, at some level there would be some kind of mental battle or cognitive dissonance at play because it is very, very hard for you to um kind of adhere to both things at the same time.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I say this because Islam itself, and I I was a believing Muslim at some point, and I was a very, very young girl when I left the UK for the first time.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: But even as a young girl in those few years growing up as a Muslim here in London, I cannot tell you how the way the group think behind closed doors or attending mosque classes or generally understanding what it entailed to be a Muslim meant how much you had already internally other Jews and Christians, and just with a broad paintbrush that, you know, white people in general, despite living in the West.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: So it does come with a very, very unhealthy dose of hatred for the West.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I kind of brought up Zapia as well, because I'm not here to say this person derived up here, this person's guilty of it, this person's not, this person's genuine.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: But all I'm trying to put out there is that is very much a concept within the region as well.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: So if you thought that terrorism was another problem, then you've also got deception, as you rightly said, as another layer of it.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: So how do we filter out the genuine from the from the disingenuous?
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um but yeah, so when it comes to like British policies where the country comes first, the security of the country comes first, the security of our little girls comes first, and then you've got perpetrators who come from, as you mentioned, a very specific part of the world who adhere to a very specific religion and they are severely overrepresented in that area, and we are not allowed to talk about it.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: It does beg the question that the people that are protecting them, why are they protecting them, or you know, who funds them, or what is their genuine uh end goal here?
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: Because you would think that we are we've come so far as a society that anybody that hears of something as abhorrent as the rape can scandals across the UK would be absolutely sick to their stomach.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: And yet we've had to get figures like Elon Musk from across the pond to bring it back to the forefront for people that are talking about it.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so I know to a lot of other ex-Muslims it might seem like, oh, I don't trust anybody until they've left the fold.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: But to me, if you genuinely um if you have a sentence of humanity and you read those sources and you can put two and two together and you don't need to keep decorating in line to yourself that oh, not all Muslims or not in the name of my God, when how many terrorists actually, if they're telling us that they're doing this in the name of Allah, or they're doing this because their book tells you to do so, then I think at some level we should believe them.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: And anyone who, you know, continues to stay in that fold and purports to put British um national safety and security uh ahead of that, I do question their motives and are they playing the long game?
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I'm gonna make a video today as well on just um the gentleman that was put as the head of offset because a lot of people are, you know, a lot of people are up in arms just by the way he dresses and what he looks like, which is fair enough, but I didn't want to get into that.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: But to me, it's more about the Star Academy's uh this trust of the schools, if you will, that he's kind of uh been in charge of for a while that has been you know deemed outstanding.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: Prior to that, you should look into what those schools were called.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: And you should look at within that the Islamic school for boys, what kind of activities are being done there in terms of cadet, um kind of little cadet militias that are being uh created of these young Muslim men and the subjects that are being taught.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: Which again, I said I'm not really the one to usually fear monger, and I am an optimist, but it does kind of send a shiver down my spine when you put all these pieces of the puzzle together, and then you look at how captured our society is and you look at what Islam's end goal is, which I'm sure John you're very much aware of, and it makes me think we need to be extra cautious here in the UK and we need to start backtracking on a lot of what we've let happen.
• 38:30
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• 38:35
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• 38:44
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• 39:00
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• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening, thanks for sharing, thanks for showing your support.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: Enjoy the rest of the show, classmate.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: So the person you bring up for the listeners if if they haven't come across it uh in the news is Sir Hamid Patel, who's become the interim director of Osted, which is for non for non-English and non-Brits, they this is the institution which uh reviews the state of the education system, uh, not just the state education system, but the independent schools as well.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: And um I did I did want to bring this up actually, and uh there was a telegraph article about him.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: There are actually that many articles haven't been published.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think the telegraph have published an article, uh, Five Pillars, which is the Muslim News Network, um, uh has published an article about him.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then there have been a few, the Times of India outside of the UK, obviously, uh and the Middle East Eye and and others.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um on Telegraph, I mean I don't know what the comments are usually like on the telegraph, but I did not find one positive comment about this.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I I don't think anyone is going to be a theology buff.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think largely you can sense a lament as to um the institutions, all the things you've spoken about today, great depth and nuance and understanding about the issues.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I don't think that's really in the minds of a lot of people because they haven't gone to that extent, but I think there seems to be an uneasy feeling out there.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I suppose this is probably a good point to bring up the media class's treatment of um those who are in uh leadership positions who are openly religious, and um clearly Sir Ahmed Patel is.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I wanted to bring up an example of Tim Farron, who is a former Liberal Democrats leader, and he led the Lib Dems into the general election of 2017, up against the political heavyweights of Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: And um Tim Farron was hounded, I think, is probably fair.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think I'm over-emphasizing it here, but you go and do a search for him and the interviews he had leading up to that election, and generally people were going at him because of his religious belief.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: He's an evangelical Christian, and because the modern political settlement has found itself um on the side of abortion, gay and lesbian rights, divorce, is he was repeatedly pushed as to whether his religious beliefs might end up impinging upon that political settlement, and how could he possibly put those he's coming to govern at rest if they think those things are good things, but they know his religious belief doesn't allow it.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I just I just find it curious, I think is probably the best way of putting it that how we have treated Christianity in the public sphere for the last few decades, including generally just thinking it's something that old fusty people do in a bygone era, and it's better that we don't have it because we have we should focus on liberty and that we're all a bit beyond that religion stuff now.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: Is I think, you know, a paraphrase, but I think broadly where Brits have come to these days, is I do find it interesting that clearly uh those who are of a more conservative religious disposition, regardless of the monotheistic faith they follow, uh so Hamid Patel being one of them, is that there doesn't seem to be any public discussion about what his religious belief might mean for governing a secular institution like Ofsted.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and indeed, no one asks that question of Sadiq Khan or Humza Yousaf or whoever else.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I suppose my question to you is is do you think, like, what do you think is behind that?
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: So you have uh, I suppose no questions that get put in this direction.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_01: Is it that there's a a hope that it it won't impact?
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_01: Is there just generally a naivety about um how strongly some people hold their beliefs and how that that colours every decision they make?
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um what your your your view looking into it as someone who's spent time around the issues of Islam in the West, um, what do you think lies behind the media class's treatment of it, good, bad, or or ugly?
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's a result of just how over the decades it's become absolutely uh normal, if you will, and also completely fine to, you know, question Christianity, mock Christianity, um, say what you will about it, and as you said, like you know.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Have it relegated almost to something that was almost a past thing now done by like men of a bygone era.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and Islam has just found itself a nice cushiony place in our society where it's been like it's it's taken off this status um as a a kind of just victim uh mentality for every every follower of the religion and the religion itself as they've really they've done well to mesh it in with race as well.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: So Islamophobia and racism are kind of people, those are the two fears that people have when they even bring up um a concern and a very valid concern, if I may, about Islam.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: And years and years of this have led it to kind of have this buffer around it where it succeeded in its special pleading to kind of be gatekeeped and safeguarded.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_00: He's the end result of all of these special protections that we've given Islam over the years, and it is ludicrous to me as an ex-Muslim that you know, and like I said, I didn't I don't want to judge people by by their looks or their appearance or what have you.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_00: But when you look at Hamid Patel, it is clear that he takes the religion extremely seriously.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, as a as an ex-Muslim, I can tell you that the attire he wears is very much in line with following exactly what they assume the prophet would have worn in the 10th century Arabia.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_00: So everything from his beard to his uh headpiece to the toe, it is very much the exact commands that you should like follow if you're a good Muslim man.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I said again, this is something that a lot of men or British Muslims showcase here in the West, where it's freezing, it's not really the appropriate way to dress in this country, but yet that's how much you care for your religion that you would outwardly choose to express yourself in that way.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I'm very, very worried in the sense that that's why I was um letting you know that I I was actually gonna make a video specifically on this, because people have just focused on, I know I can see on Twitter is a very sensationalized platform, and I do understand that so people were just you know having a go at his beard and the way he dresses.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: But I think as you rightly mentioned, his belief, um how are they gonna play into managing a secular institution um like Off Zed across the board?
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_00: Because I just looked into it for about five, ten minutes the other day to see what his previous schools have done where he's been in charge.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_00: And it struck me straight away that the first subjects that were kind of uh struck off as subjects that replaced it were art, music, um, and te.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that made complete sense to me as an ex-Muslim because you know Islam loaths all well, the mixing of men and women to TE, boys and girls, and wearing shorts and you know, just laying skin in in Islamic uh tradition and what have you.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_00: But music and art as well are two things that are very much not uh a thing in Islam, it just robs society of that, which I think is just absolutely one of the saddest things in in human history.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_00: But there you have it.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so to have a uh a man like him at the helm of that and not giving credence to I think we're a society that very much uh you know recognizes the value of things like art and music, and we truly appreciate that and we've understood its place in in human society and development in general.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but how on earth do you think a man with such stringent beliefs they're not gonna um flow over into the organization of Osted?
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_00: It makes no sense to me.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I you're very I I think people like yourself and myself, it's very much our duty to have those questions, which are very valid, about how do you expect somebody to marry those two things together.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think in that telegraph article as well, the some of the examples of uh what um Sir Hammond Patel has personally instructed at the schools he's looked after as chief executive of the Star Academies.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think one of them was making sure that the the girls at girls' schools, um, not all of them, but one of them, uh, were to wear their hijab out of school as well, uh, which probably seems uh slightly innocuous uh to some listeners.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um also not to bring anything in like lunchboxes or whatever that have un-Islamic images on them, like pop stars.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think the other one was, I've forgotten his name, but he has a YouTube channel with five million watches, and apparently he was uh heavily requested by the pupils to come in to give a talk.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it was the campaign against anti-Semitism who did a bit of digging on this chap and found out that he had been found using uh language like we need to terminate the Jews and referring to Jews and Christians as pigs.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_01: So um, not I think just Jews as pigs, actually.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so not wanting to do the you're guilty by association card, because even as someone who has a very melt-toast podcast um and speaks to people about all manner of issues, is those who lean progressive will typically look at me and go, Why are you speaking to that person?
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_01: Why are you speaking about this thing?
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, as though it's beyond the pale.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I I don't want to I don't want to apply that to them, but I think the questions being, you know, if if these are the things that you are um you are uh pr platforming, I suppose, is how is it that you don't let that bleed over into the rest of it?
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I suppose it's going to be an unfolding story.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, just before we we land into the end zone of uh the main part of the show, um I did want to finish on probably a slightly night, lighter note, which is your Twitter account can be excellent for uh your trips out with the English cricket team or at least the away fans.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you are a proud member of the Barmy Army, as they're called, and uh sometimes they're just videos of you with them whilst they're um trumpeting Jerusalem, uh William Blake's uh poem and the great the great Anglican hymn.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I wonder, as someone who you're you're born in London to a Muslim family, you spent some time in the Middle East, um, you clearly care about um Britishness, Englishness, and some of the traits um of the country and it and and its peoples.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um do you think a place like the English away end um or even just Lords or whatever is one of the last readouts of where Englishness can be uh properly expressed in some way?
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I suppose a follow-up question to that, um you're clearly someone who would be referred to as integrated uh as someone from a recent immigrant background.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um what does what do these symbols of Englishness mean to you?
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_01: And do you think that the place in which you can be English and have expressions of Englishness has uh has shrunk uh markedly and we need to hold on to them?
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_00: I think absolutely we need to hold on to them, and that that really is is my hope.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um and uh it's sad to say, but having left Islam, I was able to kind of embrace them more um more wholeheartedly.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's why I alluded earlier too, you know, there's always going to be some inner conflict if you you come from a religion that tells you that the religion is above everything else, and especially here and know you being at war with the very place you live in.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um but thankfully, I you know, my my family, uh my immediate family as well, like my parents, like they they showed me these elements of what it means to be British, and you know, they they kind of set the the tone in terms of my dad introduced me to like you know cricket on the green and how that's quintessentially English, and you know, a typical Sunday watching a test match and uh with a pint in your hand, or you know, like Wimbledon or kind of the Magna Carta, and he took us to, you know, uh just hot spots in the UK, which really enshrined a sense of wow, this is what you know, English history needs to celebrate, or this is why you should be proud to belong to a country that has changed the world for the better.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I think um a lot of us, even Muslims, don't say it, but when they go abroad, there are probably moments when they internalize, being like, oh, this is why I'm so grateful to be British, or this is what it means to be British, when you know they compare themselves respectively to other things that might be going on around them.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um but no, absolutely I think all we don't have um many days where we celebrate our past or uh, you know, just we don't have independence days per se.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_00: We've got to such a place now where holding up the Union Jack flag can just have really negative connotations.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas holding up the flags of Gaza, you know, you'd get a crowd cheering behind you.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a very that that's a very strange state of affairs.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I yeah, I I think I I'm glad actually I was here.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_00: I heard on the news the other day that they were starting now to, I think they were celebrating uh women in war and their roles, and you know, anybody kind of can kind of submit uh any anybody from their family history who has taken part in it, and we're gonna now kind of try and immortalize these things and describing, for example, Britain's role in World War II, for example, and how important that was just for us to even be able to sit here and have this conversation today, um, John.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_00: But a lot of the younger generations don't understand that and teaching them the importance of that.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_00: And and I see why that's true.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_00: If you've never gone through the education system and been told that that's something to reveal, something to be proud of, I specifically chose history as a subject because I was generally interested in it.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_00: But had I not understood the threat from, you know, fascism and the Nazis and how close we were to that all unfolding in Britain and us speaking German here today, and the university I went to being the headquarters, it it kind of really made it hit home to me that we we could have been in a completely different situation.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_00: But the younger generation are very much immune to this, and they've grown up in a world where, you know, England bad, brown people good, and we're we're trying to set the you know, set the the kind of status quo right on that because we've been downtrodden for so long, and anything that happens to the the Great Britain or English people or white people in general is just oh tough luck because look what they did to us in X, Y, and Z countries or you know, however many years ago.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a very uh very dangerous way to look at the world, and that's why we talked about institutions earlier.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_00: But I think our institutions are guilty of perpetuating this kind of mindset.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_00: So we do need to, I think this is like the last uh memorial services where we had veterans that are still with us, um, because by the time it comes around next year, there's probably going to be zero living uh war veterans.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's extremely like it gives you good spots to even talk about it because that will just be lost to history essentially if we don't immortalize these things now.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, that's this is when, as you said, if you if you can integrate like that, if you can focus on you know things that make this country great and why you're uh proud to be a part of it, it becomes really, really kind of like you celebrate things that are genuinely British, uh, and you enjoy them for what they are instead of constantly you know coming up against them or begrudgingly having to you know accept that they are fantastic, which they are.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um sorry, just for the patriotism great again.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_01: Go on, say that again.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, I was just gonna also say, like, it's it's wild to me having lived in uh places like the UAE where they are able to contain what they consider extremist elements who go against, you know, the the general their country or what have you, but they they're all within the Islamic world.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_00: And if they know how to seed out terrorist organizations or they know how to ban them or recognize them before Britain, then we seriously have a problem here.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_00: So if you've got countries like the UAE banning elements and of, let's say, the Muslim Brotherhood or charities that they deem to be receiving terrorist funds, and we've got those same charities plastering their ads across TFL, Transport for London, and our tube networks, it just says to me like we really need to do some introspection.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_01: Well, uh I'm not gonna hold my breath because I do want to live beyond the next five minutes, and that's if I could even hold it that long.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um one last question, uh, which I ask all of my guests, and then we will finish with a couple of questions for paying Substack subscribers.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_01: So the last question, Nuria, and we've certainly touched on a few of your big mind changes throughout life, but what have you changed your mind on during the course of your life that you once thought was set in stone?
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's unquestionable, it's an absolute, and what was it that made you think differently?
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, the clear and the obvious one is obviously my belief in Islam, um, and that's all-encompassing.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that would be the main one in terms of that, because it seeps into politics.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um and sorry, John, can you repeat the what was the second part of the question?
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_01: What was the trigger for making you think differently on that?
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, what what led to your uh your apostasy, I suppose?
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, the trigger was essentially uh a life scenario, trying as a Muslim woman to file for a divorce and get out um of a relationship that I no longer wanted to be in.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_00: But I would say the biggest reason is reading, honestly, reading, educating myself.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um so, and I would implore everybody, and and I always say the irony, John, is that a lot of people say the first words that were ever issued, issued, the first words that were ever uttered by uh Angel Gabriel to the alleged Prophet Muhammad himself is to read.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I just say, well, I wish that Muslims take that advice and read because honestly, it is a fast track out of there if you trust uh what you are reading.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_00: But that's probably the main thing I've changed my mind, and I've changed my mind on a lot of other things since then, obviously, uh, when it comes to you know, like little things like England's role in the empire, um, things like that, racism, uh, a lot of progressive, extremely progressive views that were instilled in me from the extremely progressive university I unfortunately attended.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_00: There was a lot of unlearning to be done there.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I think those were the two main things.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's been an absolute pleasure to to speak to you so far.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure everyone who is non-paying subscribes to Substat get the hint, guys.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I hope you've enjoyed, hope you've enjoyed this this portion of the show.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_01: Nuria, before we let you go, um let's give everyone the chance to know where they can find you online.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_01: And is there anything that we can expect from you?
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_01: Are you working on anything that you can share with us?
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, well, I you can find me on YouTube.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_00: I have a channel called Holy Humanist, um, where I just it's predominantly focused on my journey, um, leaving Islam, the reasons I left it, the flaws in Islam, um, and with a slight focus on kind of women's rights, or as I say, the lack thereof within Islam.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, there's the YouTube channel and on Twitter, uh sorry, ex normally Twitter.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_00: I can't get used to ex.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's at uh at Nuria K.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and yes, I apologize to everybody that does follow me.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not as active as I would like to be, but I do work full-time.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, watch the space.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_00: As I mentioned to John earlier, I will be making uh a video about the Ofsted situation.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_00: Grateful, I think he's just the interim.
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think right, he's just there for the interim.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think the late, yeah.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm I'm just gonna give my thoughts on that anyway.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_00: I know he's not gonna be a permanent member of OfTead unless he does a stellar job.
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_00: But um, yeah, so anytime there is something that pops up um in terms of the news cycle or something that I think is extremely alarming, I will try my best to comment on it um either to a small video uh or a Twitter post at the very minimum.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, watch this space.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Maria, all the best with all the work you do on the side of your day job.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_01: And it's been an absolute pleasure to be able to get the chance to speak to you.
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for coming on.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, take good care and all the best for your your endeavours.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, John.
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's an absolute pleasure, and thank you for the invite.
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_01: You're very welcome.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_01: Anytime I hope we can talk again in the future.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_01: To keep up to date with all that I am doing, please subscribe to the Thinking Class YouTube channel at Thinking Class and follow me on X at Thinking Classes.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_01: Thinking Class seeks to understand the civilizational issues we face and why what our leaders do in response matters.
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_01: Here I seek to explore the ideas, values, and culture that made our civilization, those that are unmaking it, and how leaders at our public and private institutions should respond.
• 1:02:10
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• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_01: I look forward to seeing you there and for joining me on this journey.