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Why Your Best Employees Clock-in and Coast (And How to Fix It) · Learnings and Missteps by Depth Builder

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Stop overreacting to a bad decision because we know the learning, the growth happens in the failure.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: I got one simple question, maybe not so simple.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: Who is your most important customer?
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: Who are the customers that bring all the life force to your business, to your team, to your operation?
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: The easy answer where most people are going to default to is well, it's the customer that brings us the longest, greatest lifetime value, the highest revenue, the easiest to work with.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: But if that's where you're thinking, you're going to want to stick around because they are not your most important customer.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: The external customer, there are an enormous amount of resources allocated to servicing, coddling, and handhold the external customer, which means largely we are neglecting our internal customers.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: That in Jesse Land, the internal customer is the absolute most important customer.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: One reason is because they're largely underserved, they're taken for granted.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: And your internal people, the people that report to you, the people that work for your business, the people in your team, your friends, your network, they are the they are representing you.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so I promise you, it is dramatically in your interest to invest in them just a little bit more than you have in the past, and maybe even more than you invest on the external customer.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're still not sure, like what the hell is this dude talking about?
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: If you've been frustrated by the people that show up, clock in and clock out, they come in at seven, they leave at 3:30, they don't do all like they don't give the extra, go the extra mile.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: This session is for you.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because what we're gonna be diving into is how to activate the doers, right?
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: There's a whole there's two more sessions we're gonna be going over about the technical experts and the dot connectors, but those are in the future.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: Today we're gonna talk about the doers because we got a lot of doers in our life and how to activate them.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: And here's the keys one is introduce them to autonomy, and two, reconnect them with their critical thinking.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna get further into it before we get into all of that.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: If you're new here, I am Jesse, your selfish servant.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I like having these kind of kinds of conversations because what I want to do is introduce folks out there, leaders, influencers in the construction industry and abroad, to ways to leave the industry better than we found it.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: And they are the ways that I learned and adjusted my behavior that produced the outcomes that I want.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying they're guaranteed, I'm just saying it's what I did and what's worked for me.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so the number one thing that I want to slap you in the face with is you are not paying them, right?
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's very easy to get in this mindset that, well, I pay them, so they should be giving me that extra ooey goobie discretionary effort because I pay them.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: And the fact of the matter is, you do not pay them, the company pays them.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: Now, of course, I'm talking about employees and direct reports, and so the way you get the that extra ooey gooey, the discretionary effort, people only give that away to people that they believe in, people that they know are going to support them and contribute to their path.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: They don't give it away to companies, and so very easy distinction.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you approve their timesheets, right?
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you approve their expense reports, but you are not paying them.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: The company does.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so if you got this sense, this twisted sense of entitlement of because they're my direct reports and they're on my team, they owe me more.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: You're wrong, baby, because you're not, you specifically aren't doing anything to tap into the ooey gooey.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, if you know what I'm talking about, drop a link or drop a comment in the chat.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: If you're out there in the omniverse, let me know you're there.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: If not, if you don't want to, if you're a lurker, that's okay.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: I love you too.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: So now that we got past the slap in the face, and I'll probably say it a few more times, you are not paying them.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if we're not in the business, like in the like on the job type scenario, and you got your community, your friends, your network, same idea counts, except you know, you know you're not paying them, and this is going to be great, bring greater value to you if you start thinking in terms of how can I better serve them, right?
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because when you I know when I contribute to the path of others, they become my advocates.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: They tell other people about me, they let other people know that hey, Jesse gets the thumbs up, he's approved, which helps me in the long run.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: So professionally, or maybe not professionally, just in the social media world or in our networks, in our in our friend groups, etc., making deposits into other people's path is the key.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, even in the personal space, we are faced with people that we get frustrated with.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: And and I'm gonna like full confession, there are people that I see massive talent in, and they're just kind of sitting on it, right?
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like they're not even aware of it.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, bro, like if you just did a little bit more, if you just took this step, like, why aren't you achieving more?
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: Why aren't you contributing more?
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: And it's real easy to get judgy and critical of them.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: But I finally figured out why they're stuck there.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like a conscious decision to like play small.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: The reason they're stuck there is because they have like accessing and leveraging autonomy, it's a new thing.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: They don't have a lot of experience with it, so they need some guidance, they could benefit from some guidance, and also their critical thinking, they haven't had to engage it.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so, what's the best contribution I can make to people in that situation is introducing them to that.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so, we're gonna go over like the how of again how I do it in Jesse Land.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: Back to the point, we're talking about the people getting for like those of us that are leaders, manage team, or see potential in others, and we want to see them rise and serve to the degree that they can.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the number one thing we want to do is introduce them to autonomy.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so, what does autonomy mean?
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, I'm sure we some you can Google it if anybody has a link or whatever on terms of like what is autonomy, please drop it in the chat.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna give you the justified definition or like just my personal understanding of autonomy.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: Autonomy for me is being able to make my own decisions without having to ask for permission and being confident enough to deal with the consequences of those decisions, right?
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like I get to do it, I get to choose to do something, and I get to choose not to do something.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I know back in the day day, I did not understand autonomy.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like when I was an apprentice, early on in apprentice.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: Well, let's go before I was actually a state certified apprentice when I was my dad's helper, I would stand there waiting to be told what to do.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: And it drove my dad crazy because we would go do side jobs with him on the weekend, and it was kind like in his mind, we've done it before.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: In my mind, I had no idea.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: But more importantly, here's some behavior that disconnects people from their autonomy.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: More importantly, I knew that if I did the wrong thing, I was gonna get my butt chewed.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: He was gonna yell at me and bark at me and like you know, make me hurt my little feelers, and so because I was afraid of the consequence, I would not take the action, I would not think for myself, I was waiting for direction.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason I want to point this out to you is because the majority of people, I think it's part of just the natural human progression.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: We are looking for direction, we are afraid to make a mistake.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: We don't want to disappoint people, and so if you got people in your team that you're like, man, make a freaking decision.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like, all you do is show up and stand around sucking your thumb until somebody tells you what to do.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's not because they suck and they're not doing it to be ugly, it's because they don't understand that they have the space to make a decision.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of the time, it is because of the way the the leader, the foreman, the superintendent, the manager, the director, whatever, a lot of time it's because of how the leader, the manager reacts to a less than awesome decision, right?
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: So, what can you do about that?
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: What you can do is stop losing your freaking stuff over somebody making a bad call, over somebody making a mistake.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I want to be clear, we're talking about the doers, right?
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: These people, like hourly folks that have the general responsibilities to do general tasks.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to, I don't know any other way to keep it to clarify that.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: But the folks that are out and they're new, usually they're new to the organization, they're new to the position, and they're just kind of waiting around to be told what to do.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: It is because they do not understand how to leverage autonomy.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: So, number one behavior to change and start working on if you're leading those people, is stop jumping down their throat, stop overreacting to a bad decision.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: Because we know the learning, the growth happens in the failure.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so giving them space to make a decision, to take an action, to make a suggestion and see it through and experience that it ain't gonna be the end of the world, they're not gonna get fired, they're not gonna get yelled at, introduces them to their autonomy.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: Now, another thing that I learned way later than I wish I had was don't like you can create that condition in a sort of a passive sense, like, yeah, man, I don't like here's the here's what I'm looking for, here's what I need you to do.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: I need you to organize the truck, all the material in the back of the truck, just get it done by lunch, and then they do it, and uh and then we just continue going on, right?
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, that's a demonstration of their autonomy.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: I know it's a small one, but I'm trying to keep it simple here.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: What I learned is if I sit down and have a little reflection conversation, is like, hey man, I you know, let's do it again, right?
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, I need you to organize all the material in the back of the truck uh by lunchtime.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: At lunchtime, I'm gonna come and check it out.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, cool.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then they do it, right?
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: That is a like uh uh an example of them saying, Okay, I know what you want, I'm just going to do that.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't tell them piece by piece, point by point.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: I could have, but I didn't.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: And then they do it.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: What I need to do, what I've learned that helps reinforce their confidence to just make decisions and make stuff happen, is say, hey man, all right, like, dude, fantastic job.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: What I particularly appreciate away about the way you organized it was X, Y, and Z, A, B, C.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: Can you tell me, walk me through your thinking?
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why did you organize it this way?
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: Now I'm connecting them to their critical thinking, I'm forcing them to reflect and say, Well, you know, because of this, you know, usually we get these tools the most frequently.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll put them closer to the end, the entry point of the tailgate, this stuff, you know, whatever it is.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: And because we have that conversation, even if they did something dumb, like, man, I don't like putting that over there doesn't make a lot of sense.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: Is there a way to organize it so that this is more accessible?
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe these things go in the back, and then they're gonna be like, Yeah, yeah, I could totally do that.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome, do that, and by the end of the day, we're gonna be golden.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: That whole exchange is introducing them to their autonomy, and I know it's it's pretty simple black and white basic stuff, but man, autonomy is a really, really confusing, scary thing if you've never been like um if you're not accustomed to it, and so why is that important, right?
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: In terms of introducing internal customers to our to their autonomy, is because when they know they have confidence that they can make a decision to produce a better outcome, a better experience, they will do it in service to whoever they're ideally your uh external customer.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: They will take the little chance, the little risk to do something that's not on the agenda or on the SOP to serve that person better.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: And that person has an experience that's like, wow, they like that.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: That was awesome.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: That dude just I didn't have to wait for him to call corporate and get an approval and da-da-da-da-da-da.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't have to submit a formal request, they just helped me out because that person, the doer, the button pusher, took initiative, took the step, delivered the value, and now you made an external customer super happy and super satisfied.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: But that was a result, like I want to be ultra, ultra clear.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: That was a result of introducing the button pusher, the person that just shows up and clocks in and clocks out.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: We love to complain about them.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: It was a result of introducing them to their autonomy.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: So if you got any questions on that, please drop them in the comments.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't I'm not sure if I'm doing a good job describing it, but ultimately don't assume that they think the way you think, right?
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: I said it earlier, the slap in the face is you are not paying them.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: The company is paying them.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: What they are going to do, the thing that's going to help me get the extra ooey-goooey sweet sauce of their discretionary effort is because I am paying them in the form of emotional deposits, in the form of contributing to their path, in the form of giving them confidence and experiences that they can build upon.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: The company doesn't do that.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: I do that as the manager, as the leader.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: And when I make those deposits into those individuals, their confidence goes up.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: They start becoming more aware of, like, man, I can make a decision on my own, and I'm okay, I'm prepared to deal with the consequence, but because the consequence is going to be reasonable in terms of what the risk that was taking.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: Meaning, if it was a bad decision, I'm not gonna come and fire them and threaten them and you know, jump down their throat.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna, we're gonna sit and we're gonna reflect, like, okay, hey, man, you made that decision again.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: Same conversation.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: What was your thinking?
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what was your intended outcome?
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: How did you come about making that decision?
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: And what can we do differently next time to avoid this outcome so that we may actually achieve the outcome that we're looking for?
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's that behavior, right?
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: If now, the opposite for clarity, if you're surrounded by people that can't make decisions, that bring every single problem to you, that sit there and wait for somebody to come and tell them what to do, it is largely your fault as the leader.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I am saying it is your fault.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I am blaming you for that.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: The reason I'm saying it is your fault is because the way you behave and respond to the decisions that they make have signaled to them that it is not in their interest to make a decision.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: It has signaled to them that if I make a decision and take an action, old boy's gonna lose his mind.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: And rather than getting yelled at for that and put my job on the line, I'm not gonna take any risk.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just gonna sit here and be told what to do.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: And then when they tell me what to do, I'm gonna I need like a blueprint step, 3,000-step instruction to make sure I do it right so I don't get yelled at.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: We have a lot of folks out there, especially now, that are so damn terrified of doing something wrong or not doing it right that it's paralyzed them.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, it's us with the highlights, it's our fault.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: We've created that situation.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so when you're leading people and you find yourself with super dependent team members, it's your fault.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: And the gateway to get out of that is start introducing them to their autonomy.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: I know it's a little bit complicated, it's gonna take a lot of practice, but I promise if you activate them and their awareness of their autonomy, they're going to be better team members, they're gonna give you that little bit of extra, that initiative that you've been hoping for and dying for, because you're helping them build confidence and get comfortable with it.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: The second thing is what where I I've already touched on it is introducing them to their critical thinking.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody, and I know it's easy to say, some people are just dumb, some people just don't have it, some people just don't care.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's BS, that's you just being lazy, or maybe that's just me being lazy because I have said that about a few people for a couple of decades in my career.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's not true.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, actually, there's a there's a concept out there, look it up.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's called the Pygmalion effect.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: And basically, uh, what the Pygmalion effect, and there's a study around it, is when I assume something about people, I'm gonna treat them in such a way that it's going to produce the outcome that I assume.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: So if I assume you're a dummy, I'm gonna treat you like a dummy.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: And then guess what's gonna happen?
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna perform like a dummy.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: Where did it start?
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: It started in my assumption, right?
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: So, what I've decided to do is shift my assumption instead of assuming that people don't care, people are gonna steal from me, people are dumb, you know, all these negative uh uh things, I've shifted to assume that everybody's got critical thinking, everybody wants to do a phenomenal job, everybody wants to achieve and serve the person in front of them.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so, based on that assumption, guess what I do?
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: I treat them like that, and then guess what?
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: They start acting like that.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's magic.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: Now, the reason I'm talking about all that is because this critical thinking idea it is very simple, and a lot of times it's like you know, people think at different levels and different degrees.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, I think too much about everything, I'm super obsessive, and other people are not, and that's okay.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so some people, some of us don't have a lot of reps, especially again, entry-level people, people new to the organization, people new to the team, people new to the department, people new to the role, they don't have a lot of experience uh uh or practice and reps in engaging their critical thinking at that level.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so let's just say they're starting off at level zero, meaning they don't question anything, they just blindly follow direction and they'll do what you tell them to do, period, and they don't think twice about it.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: Guess what?
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: You can help them build their critical thinking skills now.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: Again, this is a justified understanding of critical thinking.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so for me, critical thinking is what are the consequences?
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: What are my options and what am I prepared to do?
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like what resources do I have that I can tap into to do this thing?
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: What are the consequences, right?
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: Here's the good stuff, here's the stinky stuff.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: What can I tolerate?
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm gonna make a decision, right?
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's examining second and third order consequences uh to make a decision or before making a decision, right?
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: Realizing that I can think through something, not just do what I'm told.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so introducing people or helping people build that critical thinking muscle is really a dialogue of what were you thinking when you made that decision?
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: What was going through your head, why?
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm gonna I'm gonna caution you on the why.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it is effective.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, however, when when it's paired with like why did you make that decision?
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: It feels accusatory and so could have some um some scary vibes for whoever you're asking it of.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you can do it, it's up to you.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: I I put a lot of effort into avoiding asking why did you do that?
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: I will ask, what were you expecting?
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: What were you looking to achieve?
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: What was like walk me through how you made the decision to do the thing, and if they likely it's very likely actually, you need to expect that when you ask them that those that string of questions, that they're just gonna look at you like uh, because nobody's ever asked them that before, they don't think in that cycle, right?
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: And that's okay, give them space, like take the pressure off, and just say, Okay, just think about it, or maybe you ask some leading questions or whatever, but give them space to examine their thinking because they likely have never done it before, they've never been prompted or asked to examine or explain their thinking, and the the action of questioning it, right?
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: Of poking at it and peeling at it, is you introducing them to critical thinking skills.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: Does it take longer?
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: Hell yes, it does take longer.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: Is it a little frustrating?
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it's a little, it's a lot of frustrating, especially for me because I go a thousand miles an hour, dah dah dah da, and I've obsessed about something before I made a decision.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: I've obsessed about it for days already, right?
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but ultimately, the main idea here is for those doers, right?
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: The ones that that are new, that you get frustrated with, that they're not taking initiative, and all those other things that you're blaming, um, introducing them to their critical thinking skills is super, super powerful, right?
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: Give them the space to examine.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: In their thinking, create the events to have discussions about why they made a decision, about what they were thinking about, about what the outcome, what did they think was going to happen versus what actually happened.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's going to introduce them to like, oh, I've never thought about that before.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: I never looked at it that way before.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: And then you can coach from there, right?
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: Say, okay, awesome.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad you thought about it.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: What are some things that you can consider next time?
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because this scenario is very likely to happen again.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't want you to be afraid of pulling the trigger and making a decision, but let's talk through some other alternatives that you can try on the next rep.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: Which again, that gives them license, that gives them some space of like, oh, I can think about why I make decisions.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I get a pass, I got a green light to make future decisions.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: And my boss or Lucery, assuming, like I'm just gonna say Lucerie is my boss, and she's not gonna yell at me, she's not gonna fire me and terminate me or put me on probation or suspension or whatever.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like, this is part of the development.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: Doing those things, introducing the doers, right?
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: The people that are we'll just say plain small or underperforming, or maybe just going through the motions, another way to think about it.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: Introducing them to their autonomy, helping them get some reps in their critical thinking is a massive, massive deposit in the emotional bank account, especially if they haven't had people in their life that has ever done that before.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll give you another example.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe this is a little extra color to put in your back pocket and use it, right?
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like most of you know, I've been in trouble with the law, I've been on probation um the majority of my adult life now.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: Not anymore.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: I've been behaving myself, just celebrated 10 years of sobriety.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: But I was in the court system for uh like I'm not kidding, the majority of my adult life.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: And in that situation, I was in, I want to be clear, I'm owning it.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like I made decisions that put me in that situation.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: I wasn't a victim, I did the things.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I was surrounded by people that were telling me what to do and what not to do.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: And if I deviated from any of that, I was going to jail.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so a lot of us are in situations at home in our upbringing, or with because of some of the decisions we made, uh tying us to the legal, our legal status, if you will, that we have all these reinforcing elements that signal to us, do not make a decision, do this or else.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so that has a compounding effect on people uh in terms of like minimizing or or helping them stay scared and safe from making a decision.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: So when you have people that are in that situation, again, it's not just people that have been that are in the cart system, it's also people that are in abusive relationships or have had an abusive boss or a neglectful boss in the past, they will naturally show up with these kind of fear and these guardrails up where they're only gonna do precisely what you tell them to do because they're afraid to fail, because they're afraid of the negative consequence.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: So you're gonna have to put in a little extra effort to help them trust and understand that you're actually there to help them grow.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I know that might be a little touchy feely, but for real, for real.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: So we got a question from Miss Lucerie.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: She says, interesting.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, what would you do if tables are turned?
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: What if you are the rookie?
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, oh, tough question.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: What if you're the root rookie and your supervisor keeps underrating you or underutilizing you, sister?
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: I love that you're bringing a challenging question.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I am gonna answer it a hundred percent honestly.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, in Jesse Land, but I want to be clear.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: I am a single man, I have no pets, plants, or people in my life.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: I have zero dependence.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so what I would do if I had a boss that was like telling me to shut up and mind my own business and and don't stop trying to get attention and just like underplaying me, underutilizing me, I would quit.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: I would find another boss.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: Now, quit the company, maybe, quit the department.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I would find a better leader.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I recognize that it's easy for me to say that because of the way I design my life.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: If you have, you know, financial responsibilities, you got a family, you got all these other things, it makes it harder to do that.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: So, the counter to that, like if let's just say you're in a situation where getting another boss um or quitting the job is like not the easiest thing, like that's a real scary thing.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: I get it 100%.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: The secondary option to that is you got to make a living, you got to pay your bills, right?
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: So you got to suck it up, but you can start building your own world outside of that, right?
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: And what do I mean by that?
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like, it would be amazing, like for real, for real, if everybody could find a job and make a living in a place with a team that completely values them and helps them thrive and grow.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: That would be miraculous.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: But the fact of the matter is, there's so many weak leaders out there that is highly unlikely.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: And when you are in that type of situation, you need to appreciate that manager, that leader that is building you and contributing to your path, like for real, because they're rare.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: Super, there's more, there's more and more coming up.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: They're starting to see the light, but they are very, very rare.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: So then the alternative then is okay, if I'm not going to get fulfillment and growth experiences, like my boss, my boss is the company is not structured to help me grow, then I need to develop my own development system.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: I need to create the conditions outside of work that can help me thrive and grow as an individual.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: Does that mean starting a business?
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: Possibly.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: Does it mean starting a community?
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: Possibly.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: Does it mean expanding your network and getting involved with the nonprofit organization?
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: Possibly.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: The point is you can create the conditions for you to learn and thrive and grow outside of your job.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: That is like less than um amazing.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: But Lucy, I recognize you.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: You're you're a you're a baller, you're a make it happener.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so the likelihood of finding an employer and a boss that is really going to be able to see your talent and see what you have and pour into you.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: The reality is it's very, very slim that you will find that.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: So continue to look for that boss.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like understand it when you're in an interview, and this isn't just for loser, this is for everybody else.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: You're not the only damn person getting interview, right?
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: I would I and I mean today because things are different.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: I get I'm not gonna take an offer unless I get to meet my direct supervisor, and I'm gonna put in some damn work to connect with the people that work for them already to find out if she's got game, if I can learn and grow under her or not.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: If not, guess what?
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna take the job.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so maybe that's a secondary point, right?
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: Is be as at a certain point in your career, you get to be more selective about your boss.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: You just gotta find out how your boss operates.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: And if they don't have the demonstrate the behaviors that are gonna help you thrive and grow, go find another one.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: I know that's not easy.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: The alternative to that that you can do concurrently, is start building your own situation, start cultivating the grounds that you know are gonna help you grow and thrive, right?
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's not easy, but that's my recommendation.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: So hopefully that was helpful, Ms.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: Luzeri.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: Now, in the cultivating of the thing, that would be a massive demonstration of your vulnerability, I'm sorry, of your autonomy and your critical thinking.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: Oh man, girl, you're bringing it today.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: Next question is how about managing up or reverse management or coaching?
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: What is your take on that?
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: Tips or tricks?
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god, this one again, I have to couch it with I'm a single man, I ain't got no people, plants, or pets depending on me.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I can take bigger risks than most people do.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: Now, number one thing, number one mistake that I see around managing up, right?
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's what you're asking.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: How about managing up or reverse coaching?
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's important, it's valuable, it's scary too.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: The number one thing is a lot of people get it twisted.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: What they do is they figure out how to we'll just say over-deliver for their boss and they underdeliver with their team.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: So they get, you know, the the colloquial term is suck up, right?
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: They end up sucking up to the boss and they end up being bobbleheads, yes, yes, yes.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: That is not the way, man.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: And and too many people out there have been successful and progressed up the career, the the corporate ladder by being that person, right?
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: Always sucking up to the boss and and that sort of thing.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: I don't recommend it, it's not my style.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: It works, but I don't recommend it.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll be more clear.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: If that's your style, you're not my kind of people.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: Now, in terms of managing up reverse management or coaching up to your supervisors, the bosses, the people that have more influence and authority, my number one recommendation is figure out how to become a trusted resource for that individual.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I know that's kind of general and foggy, so I'm gonna give you a super clear example.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: Something that it's easy to be to overlook and take for granted is that your boss is being a jerk because they're a jerk, because they want to be a jerk to you, right?
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's very easy to assume that.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: Because what we don't see is that they're in a uh they got right, they got more responsibility, they got more pressure, but that's the deal, right?
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: They're getting paid for that.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: What we miss is that they don't have the same, like their support network is thinner, meaning, let's just say they're a director of a department.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: How many other directors of that department are there?
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: Probably zero in the company, right?
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so what does that mean?
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: That means they don't have uh a support network internally within the organization that they can bounce ideas off of or that's gonna give them actionable feedback, right?
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then some organizations that I've been in been a part to, at that level, if they do share, like, hey, I'm not sure, I'm scared, I don't want to make a mistake, like if they demonstrate any vulnerability, any human qualities, other people are out to take their freaking job and they'll use it against them.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: So it's in their interest to bottle it up and just deal with it.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so that's a real human thing that happens in every organization.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: As you progress, there's fewer people at the level at that level, which means you have a smaller network of people that are experiencing the things you're experiencing, so you're kind of going on your own.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: Now, the other thing that's happening because as you progress, you get less factual information.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: Why?
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because people are people, the survival instinct is so strong that people will polish up bad information before they present it to their boss, and then that level of the organization will polish up stinky information before they present it to their boss, and so the further up the ladder you are, the more polished that information is, and you believe it.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: So you make decisions based on bad information, right?
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: Now, going back to your question, Luzerie, of like how do you manage uh managing up or reverse management?
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: My recommendation that I've done multiple times that has served me in like massively is I decided to be the guy that was going to tell them this the real, real stinky news about the information that they were getting.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I'm not talking I was a narc and I was squealing.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: More precisely, what I was telling was like, hey, this outcome that we're after, we're missing it.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's not as good as that report says.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: And here is the behaviors, here are the behaviors that you're doing that are contributing to the negative outcome.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I didn't do that in a meeting, I didn't do that in front of people, I didn't do it in an email.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: I sat down and told them, like, hey, I want to talk to you about the report.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna talk to you about the performance on the KPIs and the OKRs and all the other crap.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: Here's the real real.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: Here are some of the things that I really doubt anybody has told you.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: And here are some of the things that you're doing that are reinforcing this outcome.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: Is that scary?
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: Hell yes.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: But every time I've done it, they said, Oh, damn, we need to talk more because I'm not getting this intel from anybody, it's their blind spot.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe another way to think about it is point out their blind spots in a respectful manner.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you truly intend to support them and help them serve the team better, point out their blind spots.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: Don't judge them.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: Just like, here are the things, here's what you're doing that's making this happen.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe have a suggestion or two.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: But I've never had to have a suggestion.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: All I had to do was point it out, and they're like, Okay, what if I change this?
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: I let's try it, right?
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: And and so from there forward, it opened up all kinds of doors for me.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I think summary in terms of managing up, become a trusted resource.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: Tell them the real, real, right?
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: Do it in a in a meaningful way, in a way that you know they can absorb it.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: Now, also, not everybody is mature enough and confident enough to receive that kind of feedback.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: If you get any indication that they can't, like they don't know how to risk gracefully receive feedback, don't even bother, man.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, do the other thing, go find another boss or start building another situation.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully, that was helpful, my sister.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: Lucerie says, I agree, becoming a valuable and productive resource and learning to not take things personally, having a curious mindset and being a proven innovator.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, 100%.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like, keep doing the thing, man.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: And again, if you're stuck in like a less than awesome situation, do the job.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's millions of people that have gone to a job that they hate.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, my mom, my parents are examples of that.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: They hated their job, they hated their bosses, they didn't get any fulfillment out of their boss.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: They did it, and maybe here's the the punchline so everybody can uh like really, really think about this activating your doers.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they did that and made it through life.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: And guess what they did?
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: Off the clock, they were raising families, they were doing something that was extremely meaningful to them, and so you can actually you're better off focusing on designing a life that brings you fulfillment than you are expecting your job to do that.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: So here's the punchline, and kind of the thing that awakened me to all of this was Mr.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: Fernando Cortinas.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: If you've listened to the podcast at all, Learnings and Missteps, I think it's like interview number three.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: That guy had influence.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody listened to him, like he could the team would just follow his direction, like he had a lot of influence.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: He was a sheet metal mechanic, and I wanted him to be a foreman because he had the skill set to be a foreman.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, I needed to teach him how to do the planning and read the you know, the technical stuff, but in terms of influence and leadership, he had it.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I was constantly pushing him to be a foreman.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: And finally, one day, and he was always like, Yeah, you know, maybe on the next job, maybe on the next job.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: And finally, I got frustrated.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, bro, don't you want more for yourself?
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why are you happy just staying where you're at?
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: And that you know, that wasn't a respectful uh comment that I made.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: And his response to me was like, What do you mean more?
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, Jess, I'm on the um the directors, one of the directors of a nonprofit group.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm on a motorcycle club and we have a nonprofit group where we raise money and funds to do two big events a year in the summertime.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: We do a fan drive for like an impoverished part of San Antonio here on the west side.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: We get as much money as we can so we can buy back boxed fans for the elderly in the neighborhood because they don't have air condition.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, oh damn, that's a lot.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, Yeah, and then on Christmas time, same thing.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: We're raising money and we're doing events and whatever, so we can raise money and get donations to get bikes for all the kids in the neighborhood.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: If I decide to be a foreman, I'm gonna have meetings, I'm gonna have stress, I'm gonna have pressure, and it's not gonna help me, like it's gonna take away from me doing this thing out there that brings me fulfillment.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't know that.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: I worked with this guy for years, and I had no insight to the way he was impacting the community, having way bigger impact than he would have as a foreman.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_00: And that's when the awakening happened.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like, oh shit.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, well, you know what?
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: I know we had a at the time the company we were with, we had like we would do, we would support nonprofit efforts.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: I said, bro, well, what if we teamed up?
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what if I submitted your thing to HR so it could be one of like the official things, and we make it a company event as well, not take it over, but we can contribute.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: And he's like, dude, you would do that?
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: Shit, I'll do that.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so we made that happen.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_00: And after that, like the the amount of that extra ooey gooey discretionary effort I got from him was profound, and that was the awakening.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like, oh crap, I've been doing instead of judging them for just doing the minimum, I need to figure out how to contribute to their path.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the takeaway for you guys.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: Losery, thank you so much for your questions.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully, they were helpful, and I hope I super, super am looking forward to seeing you in the community.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: And folks, the community I'm talking about is the Construction Leadership Lab.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're interested in that, drop community in the chat and I'll make sure and get you a link.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and if not, I still love you.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: Keep being awesome to yourself, keep being awesome to the people around you, and we'll see you on the next one.
• 41:21
  unknown: Peace.