Latest / Systematic Geekology / Alfred Pennywise: More Than a Butler

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Alfred Pennywise: More Than a Butler · Systematic Geekology

• 1:15
  Pennyworth the greatest father figure in all of comics.
• 1:19
  We are exploring this today on another episode of Systematic Ecology in our annual theme, which is the faces behind us, where we look at characters that aren't necessarily the main character of a story, but they play a pivotal
• 1:35
  role in that character story.
• 1:36
  And so this one, we're looking at Alfred and specifically his relationship to both Batman and Nightw.
• 1:43
  I am stoked for this episode, if you couldn't tell.
• 1:45
  I am Kevin Schaefer, huge Batman geek.
• 1:48
  And you've heard me talk about the character and the mythos many times on this show.
• 1:53
  And if you're new, welcome.
• 1:54
  You're gonna hear a lot.
• 1:56
  But.
• 1:56
  And I am very excited because I'm here with the not so dark Knight, the Bald knight of systematic ecology making his return to the show because it has been a minute.
• 2:07
  Will Rose, how are you?
• 2:09
  Oh, man, feels so good.
• 2:11
  Here I am back on the show.
• 2:12
  I've been on sabbatical.
• 2:14
  My church gifted me with sabbatical, three month sabbatical.
• 2:16
  So I was listening to Systemic Ecology.
• 2:18
  As a fan, I was listening to your reactions of things like the Spider man movie and lanterns and kicking out on comics and geeks on a roll.
• 2:27
  All those things I've been listening to in the series of the faces behind us.
• 2:31
  And on sabbatical, I was reflecting on.
• 2:33
  Yeah, who are their faces behind me and how am I being?
• 2:36
  How am I helpful to others, playing the Alford role to others?
• 2:40
  And this is another character that I, I truly adore and love and loved thinking about.
• 2:45
  So, man, glad to be back.
• 2:47
  The Return of the Geek.
• 2:48
  The Return of the Geek is back on system.
• 2:49
  My geekology, the Return of the Geek.
• 2:51
  Luke Skywalker in the back, in the flesh, right on video here.
• 2:55
  It's very exciting.
• 2:56
  But no.
• 2:57
  Well, I cannot wait for this one.
• 2:58
  Glad to have you back.
• 2:59
  And yeah, we haven't even talked Spider man and all that stuff.
• 3:01
  We were catching up a little bit before we started recording, but we have a lot to catch up on.
• 3:07
  So for when we're off the air because I got to get your thoughts on a lot of summer shenanigans here in the geek world, but yeah, awesome.
• 3:15
  Well, for listeners and viewers out there, thank you so much for tuning in Again.
• 3:21
  Whether this is your first time, whether you are a long time supporter of the show, we really appreciate you being here.
• 3:28
  Hopefully we don't bore you to death.
• 3:29
  I like to think that if you are here, you are into two more geeks talking about Batman because, you know, there's not enough of that in the world.
• 3:39
  But please rate and review the show wherever you get your podcasts.
• 3:44
  If you're listening on Apple Spotify or on YouTube, just give us a like, give us a follow.
• 3:51
  You can review us and try.
• 3:53
  If you're going to give a negative review, try not to trash us too hard.
• 3:56
  But, but hey, also let loose say negative reviews are still helpful for the algorithm.
• 4:03
  So, you know, do it.
• 4:05
  Comments.
• 4:05
  Yeah, comments in the.
• 4:06
  You on the YouTubes, on the social media.
• 4:09
  Comments drives it.
• 4:10
  Not necessarily likes, but yeah, throw some stars at us.
• 4:13
  But also, you know, comment.
• 4:16
  Chime in.
• 4:17
  Chime in the conversation.
• 4:18
  We don't geek for you.
• 4:19
  We geek with you.
• 4:20
  So chime in.
• 4:22
  And also last time I talked to Will, I think he said he would be willing to dress as the penguin for Halloween and, and, and do the full Danny DeVito costume if we get 50 likes on a video.
• 4:35
  So that.
• 4:36
  That's true.
• 4:37
  Yeah, that's true.
• 4:38
  The true story.
• 4:39
  I'll squawk.
• 4:40
  I'll make penguin noises.
• 4:42
  If you've ever been to the zoo around penguins, there's usually they're one of the cutest animals but also the stinkiest.
• 4:47
  So I won't shower for a month and then dress up as the penguin and walk down Franklin street and see what happens.
• 4:53
  And even if you're not here in North Carolina, there will be video footage.
• 4:57
  You will, you will see this go.
• 5:00
  So if, if you want to see that make it happen, all you got to do is hit that like button on YouTube.
• 5:05
  And while we are talking about supporters of the show, I want to give a shout out to Jeannie Mattingly.
• 5:12
  Thank you so much for supporting systematic ecology.
• 5:15
  It really helps us out.
• 5:16
  And if you do want to become a supporter or check out our merch store, you can follow the links in the description.
• 5:25
  Even just a small amount really helps us out.
• 5:28
  You can get really cool merchandise.
• 5:29
  So check it all out.
• 5:31
  And then Will I like I said, it's been a minute since we've talked all things geek.
• 5:36
  So before we get into the main topic for tonight, what have you been geeking out on, especially during your sabbatical?
• 5:43
  Yeah, I, I definitely needed to catch up on things when I got back from sabbatical.
• 5:51
  So like X Men 97, my adventures were Superman.
• 5:54
  I've caught up with lanterns, those kinds of things.
• 5:57
  I definitely caught up and love them all.
• 5:59
  Just fin Adventure of Superman.
• 6:00
  Love this season.
• 6:01
  Love that show.
• 6:02
  It's so charming.
• 6:03
  It's so good.
• 6:03
  I love it.
• 6:05
  But.
• 6:05
  But yeah, lanterns.
• 6:06
  Right now we as recording this.
• 6:08
  We are one episode left.
• 6:10
  I can't wait to talk about the full series together with, with you geeks and about, about this and yeah, I, I love the show a lot.
• 6:17
  I, I've been wrestling with some of the different parts you've been talking about in terms of plot, in terms of, you know, the F bombs are jarring from time to time because you know, we're so used to Green
• 6:27
  Lantern from just the Justice League and Justice League Unlimited cartoon and here with, with kind of a peacemaker version of Green Lanterns.
• 6:34
  But I'm here for it.
• 6:35
  I love it.
• 6:35
  Tom King and Linda for knocking out of the Park.
• 6:38
  Can't wait for that.
• 6:39
  And you know, over sabbatical I was started reread of Lord of the Rings and so I am, I am slow reading this thing.
• 6:46
  I am soaking it up like a sponge in the mornings I'm reading a couple pages and journaling and get out my highlighter and pen almost like I'm doing a Bible study, except with Lord of the Rings and it
• 6:57
  is glorious.
• 6:57
  I love it so much.
• 6:59
  And my local theater is doing these retro nights and they've been showing the ext version of the movie.
• 7:04
  So I've been reading the Fellowship of the Ring and then going to watch the extended version of the movie and, and again, it's a masterful movie even though they left out some things, move some things around for the
• 7:15
  plot and whatever is going on.
• 7:16
  But yeah, Lord of the Rings.
• 7:18
  I'm geeking out horror Lord of the Rings right now.
• 7:19
  You gotta talk to Nick folk.
• 7:21
  Oh yeah, we are happy.
• 7:22
  We're gonna be a beer camp together and, and that long car van ride to Kansas City.
• 7:28
  I have lots of questions and lots of thoughts and we're going to geek out hard on that.
• 7:32
  I got to start my reread.
• 7:33
  I mean I watch the movies every year and then I reread it often.
• 7:36
  But I actually, a friend gifted me this beautiful edition last year that it's the entire, it's the entire trilogy, the books in one volume and it's this like leather bound red cover.
• 7:48
  It's great.
• 7:49
  So I mean obviously I have a box set as well, but now I've got both editions on my shelf and.
• 7:54
  Looks glorious.
• 7:55
  Yeah.
• 7:55
  I was gifted a beloved member who passed away.
• 7:57
  He was a big theology geek, big library.
• 8:01
  The family invited me over to the house to pick out whatever book I wanted and.
• 8:04
  And that was the one I grabbed was the Lord of the Rings and one big volume hardback with a ribbon down the middle and all the maps and all that stuff.
• 8:12
  So yeah, thanks.
• 8:14
  That was.
• 8:15
  That's good.
• 8:15
  And that's when we read In Honor of Frank.
• 8:17
  So good stuff.
• 8:18
  I love it.
• 8:19
  What a way to honor a friend.
• 8:20
  But yeah, awesome.
• 8:21
  And then for me, obviously geeking out on Lanterns and that's inspired me to go through some of the older comics in the Green Lantern mythos.
• 8:29
  And so I'm going through the original Kyle Rayner run written by Ron Mars in the 90s when the character was introduced.
• 8:36
  Because I had familiarity with Kyle in other books, but I had never read his origin.
• 8:41
  And there's elements of that that kind of influence the show in terms of.
• 8:45
  Because that's when Hal turns evil and becomes Parallax.
• 8:49
  And you know, while they're not doing that exact thing in the show, they're still influence there that comes across.
• 8:55
  But, but I'm really loving that run.
• 8:58
  It's very 90s and I love Kyle as a character.
• 9:01
  I think he's probably the most relatable of the Lanterns.
• 9:05
  And now granted, like Simon Baz and Jessica Cruz later on, I would say even more so.
• 9:11
  But.
• 9:11
  But yeah, I love that Kyle is just this freelance graphic design artist and he literally just stumbles into a guardian after a big massacre and he gets handed the ring.
• 9:24
  So he has literally no qualifications and I love it.
• 9:27
  But he ends up being really creative and you know, that creativity.
• 9:31
  I haven't read this.
• 9:32
  Do you have the hard copy or is that a tablet I'm reading on the DC app?
• 9:35
  Yeah, because I, I.
• 9:36
  So I subscribed to DC Universe Infinite this year and I've been addicted to it ever since.
• 9:42
  So I have the Ultra and it has all the Vertigo titles as well.
• 9:46
  So I usually read them on my laptop either in the morning or in the evening after work.
• 9:53
  And yeah, the plowing through it.
• 9:54
  Yeah.
• 9:54
  I'm not familiar with Kyle Reiner other than him showing up in other works, but Right.
• 9:58
  Origin and where he started with Ron Mars.
• 10:00
  I haven't read this.
• 10:01
  That's a good pool.
• 10:02
  That's a good recommendation.
• 10:03
  I.
• 10:03
  I'll go.
• 10:04
  I'll maybe go hunt those down.
• 10:05
  So I've get my Green Lantern fix after this.
• 10:07
  TV shows over.
• 10:07
  Yes.
• 10:08
  Oh, I think many are going to be seeking out the comics after the season finale airs.
• 10:13
  Go on Sunday.
• 10:14
  Yeah.
• 10:15
  Awesome.
• 10:16
  Awesome.
• 10:16
  Well.
• 10:16
  Well, I am very excited for our main topic tonight.
• 10:20
  So again, the Faces Behind Us series is our annual theme here at the show and it's again looking at characters who have a profound impact on main characters.
• 10:32
  So we've done episodes on Ma and Pa Kent and Uncle Ben.
• 10:37
  And on the darker side, Joshua and I did one on Lionel Luther in Smallville that was a blast.
• 10:44
  And that you can check out as well.
• 10:46
  And you can check out the whole series by following the links in the description here.
• 10:50
  But today we're talking about none other than the great Alfred Pennyworth, the famous butler to Bruce Wayne and to all the Robins he plays.
• 11:01
  I mean, aside, well, aside from Batman, I would argue he's probably the most important character in the Batman mythos and I cannot wait to talk about him today.
• 11:14
  So we're looking specifically at Alfred's paternal slash mentor role to both Batman and Nightwing, which is interesting.
• 11:23
  That was what, you know, that was the inscription.
• 11:25
  So I mean, obviously Nightwing is Robin later on.
• 11:29
  So this is Dick Grayson, so we can talk about Robin as well.
• 11:33
  But, but I thought this was an interesting setup for this episode to talk specifically about how Alfred influences Batman and the character of Nightwing.
• 11:44
  So we're going to be looking at, you know, different examples from comics, movies, animated series, etc.
• 11:52
  And will just oh yeah, TV, all of it.
• 11:54
  I mean there's, there's so many, I mean there's video games, there's so many.
• 11:58
  So much Batman media out there and so much that Alfred has appeared in.
• 12:02
  So Will, I guess just start off, I mean, obviously, you know, I'm a huge Batman fan and it all started for me with the Animated Series.
• 12:09
  But what, like, where did Batman start for you and, and where, like who was kind of your Alfred growing up in either in movies or TV and in comics as well?
• 13:12
  Yeah, good question.
• 13:14
  So, yeah, I'm, I'm one of the elder statesmen here at Suspect Ecology.
• 13:18
  I was born in the 70s and so I grew up on Saturday morning cartoons and Super Friends and also Adam west reruns of, of Batman.
• 13:26
  And then was in high school when the Batman 89 Batman movie came, came up.
• 13:31
  And so I was familiar with the comics Super Friends and then loved the Animated Series when I was in college watching that.
• 13:38
  And so always been a Batman fan and I've always loved Robin.
• 13:42
  Like Batman's cool, the billionaire, the guy.
• 13:45
  But I've just always thought Dick Grayson and Robin eventually.
• 13:48
  Nightwing has been one of my favorite DC characters.
• 13:51
  Not only just a supporting role, but he's more of a jovial, light hearted, almost Peter Parker kind of character Dick Grayson was and just love, love Robin.
• 14:01
  And so I, when I think of Batman, I automatically, I can't separate Alfred or Robin without Batman.
• 14:09
  I've never known them with, without Them as his support as his Jimmy Cricket consciousness on his shoulder.
• 14:17
  As he's stitching up his shoulder or his neck or helping his wounds from the night of heroing or vigilante whatever he's doing out there.
• 14:29
  He comes back and there is Alfred not only help stitching him up but also part of his moral conscious or asking good questions about why he's doing certain things or helpful hints.
• 14:40
  And you know he's.
• 14:41
  He's the trauma care both physically and emotionally for this kid that he really cares for and watch grow up because he was orphaned.
• 14:48
  And so I love.
• 14:49
  I love Alfred.
• 14:51
  Little history like Alfred.
• 14:53
  His first appearance was in Batman number 16 in 1943.
• 14:58
  There you go.
• 14:58
  Not Detective Comics but Batman number 16.
• 15:01
  He was originally Alfred Beagle was his name.
• 15:04
  And then.
• 15:05
  And he was kind of like this amateur detective that just shows up at Wayne Manor to help out, you know and offer his butler services.
• 15:14
  And then of course that was changed to Pennyworth and has a long history of his relationship with not only British intelligence and as a Shakespearean actor and what he brought to the Waynes but then taking care of Bruce
• 15:29
  in the midst of all those things.
• 15:30
  He does have a last appearance too.
• 15:32
  If you're keeping up with comics.
• 15:33
  He is killed off.
• 15:35
  Spoiler.
• 15:36
  He was killed off in 2019.
• 15:38
  I could not believe it was that long ago.
• 15:40
  I was like yeah, it's been a couple years he's been dead.
• 15:42
  They'll bring him back.
• 15:42
  But it is.
• 15:43
  It's been like seven years.
• 15:45
  They killed him off in the comics.
• 15:46
  Bang.
• 15:46
  Killed him.
• 15:47
  And.
• 15:47
  And The Batman number 77 volume three or four or whatever he's.
• 15:52
  He's in.
• 15:52
  And they've introduced a new kind of butler.
• 15:55
  I don't know if you're keeping up with that.
• 15:56
  Kevin.
• 15:57
  We have the grand niece of.
• 15:59
  Of Alfred who is just showed up.
• 16:01
  Just showed up.
• 16:02
  She just showed up in Matt Fractions beautiful awesome Batman run currently.
• 16:08
  So in Batman number 12 in the current run Matt Fraction we have a new new butler and that's Variety.
• 16:14
  Variety Pennyworth V R I T Y.
• 16:16
  I guess that's how you say it.
• 16:17
  Variety Pennyworth who is part of this like underground almost like John Wick secret society of butlers that take care of heroes or something.
• 16:27
  Was Grant grand niece of Alfred is now a part of this.
• 16:30
  Her first appearance was ago.
• 16:33
  And we'll see how this unfolds.
• 16:35
  I was always waiting to see if when they're gonna bring Alfred back but they haven't.
• 16:38
  They brought back the grand kn which is kind of fun.
• 16:40
  But yeah, so I, I have a long, long geek.
• 16:43
  As long as I've been collecting comics.
• 16:45
  I was a Marvel guy and, and X Men guy, but always loved Super Friends and the animated stuff and some of the comics.
• 16:52
  So Batman's always up there as one of my.
• 16:54
  One of my favorites.
• 16:55
  And manually love a supporting cast.
• 16:56
  Robin and Alfred there is up there.
• 16:58
  So that's where I'm at.
• 16:59
  Well, and also we were talking before recording about seeing a great summary there of Alfred in the comics.
• 17:08
  I did learn that a few years ago, I think when I was reading one of Michael Uslan's book about the original name for Alfred and all that.
• 17:16
  And yeah, I mean that I did not know for a long time.
• 17:19
  And so it was fascinating to get into that history.
• 17:22
  But we were talking before recording about how like you were just watching the Matt Reeves film last night.
• 17:27
  You're like, oh, I forgot that Andy Serkis played Alfred.
• 17:30
  And I mean talk about the like, I mean everyone kind of has their favorite live action Batman with Alfred.
• 17:37
  There is not a bad one at all because you look at just the movies in the last, you know, since the 89 1.
• 17:43
  You had Michael go.
• 17:45
  You had Michael Caine and then Circus.
• 17:48
  And then in the Animated Series he was voiced by.
• 17:55
  I know, it's.
• 17:56
  I just want to get the name right here.
• 18:00
  Yes, man.
• 18:03
  Yeah, I was looking up too.
• 18:04
  I was kind of seeing everybody talks about their favorite Batman version of Batman.
• 18:08
  But then they.
• 18:09
  There's been like over 10 people.
• 18:11
  Yep.
• 18:12
  Playing Alfred and you have Jeremy Iron.
• 18:15
  Jeremy Irons in like Jeremy Irons Snyderverse.
• 18:19
  And so you have all these.
• 18:21
  It's like the, the casting of Alfred is almost as big as news as who's going to play important.
• 18:29
  This role.
• 18:29
  That's how important the face behind Batman is.
• 18:32
  And so rewatching some of the Matt Reeves and.
• 18:35
  And forgot that Andy Serkis was.
• 18:36
  Was Alfred was.
• 18:37
  I watched the scene where he comes in and we got a younger Bruce and he's.
• 18:41
  He's a jerk.
• 18:42
  He's.
• 18:42
  He's jaded.
• 18:43
  You know, he looks at him and stares out of his face and it's like one point he's like, you're not my dad.
• 18:47
  And in any circus version of Alfred is like, I'm well aware.
• 18:51
  And he's just like, oh, gut punch, dude.
• 18:53
  That hurts.
• 18:53
  I don't like this Batman.
• 18:55
  Eventually he grows over the course of this movie.
• 18:57
  That's the point of a younger Bruce.
• 18:59
  But that, that was a powerful scene for me in terms of who he is and what he's putting up with.
• 19:05
  And the patience and the non anxious presence in the midst of someone who's really anxious and traumatized.
• 19:11
  And how is he helping this, this person that he cares about deeply, totally.
• 19:17
  And it's.
• 19:18
  Yeah, Ephraim Zimbalist Jr.
• 19:20
  I.
• 19:20
  I should know that off the top of my head.
• 19:22
  But.
• 19:22
  But yes, he voiced him in the Animated Series, but there's somebody.
• 19:25
  Oh, and Jeremy Irons is great.
• 19:27
  And, and then yeah, we'll probably touch on it a little bit later.
• 19:29
  But the comics too, there's obviously a very different version, but a really badass one in absolute Batman where Alfred is.
• 19:38
  Yeah, because like.
• 19:39
  Oh, we'll get, we'll get to that.
• 19:41
  But yeah, where Alfred is not actually the mentor, but he's this like high tech government agent hunting down Batman and doing a mission in Gotham.
• 19:51
  And it's awesome.
• 19:52
  So we will get.
• 19:53
  So he's an M16 agent who is sent to just observe and reporting at first.
• 19:59
  And as he's observing Batman and this kid, he's.
• 20:03
  He's like intrigued by him and lured to be more than just an observer and get involved.
• 20:10
  And that aspect of Pennyworth is, is pretty cool.
• 20:14
  I think it's pretty awesome.
• 20:16
  It's pretty great.
• 20:18
  Yeah.
• 20:18
  Is there, is there in the Animated Series, is there a specifically Alfred focused episode where they, you know, give some of his backstory?
• 20:29
  Just, just.
• 20:30
  It's just an Alfred episode, not so much.
• 20:33
  But he does play a pivotal role throughout.
• 20:35
  And I did get some quotes here from like, particularly Mask of Phantasm I think is probably like my favorite nice role with him in the Animated Series universe.
• 20:46
  I mean, I love that movie.
• 20:47
  Actually, Christian Ashley and I did an episode on that for Batman Day last year.
• 20:52
  So you can go check that out.
• 20:53
  But, but I got.
• 20:54
  If you go.
• 20:55
  Yeah, no, I don't.
• 20:55
  They never really did, you know, a full origin there.
• 20:58
  That would have been cool.
• 21:00
  I think they wanted to kind of keep some of that a mystery.
• 21:02
  And also Batman.
• 21:03
  The Animated Series was very episodic in nature, so a lot of it revolved around the rogues gallery.
• 21:09
  There was the Robin origin, which is great.
• 21:12
  Robin is reckoning, one of my favorites.
• 21:14
  And Alfred plays a huge role there.
• 21:16
  But yeah, I pulled a few quotes here from different media that I wanted to just share real quick.
• 21:24
  So one is a quote from Mask of the Phantasm and he says, vengeance blackens the soul.
• 21:30
  Bruce, I've always feared that you would become that which you fought against.
• 21:34
  You walk the edge of that abyss every night, but you haven't fallen in.
• 21:38
  And I thank heaven for that.
• 21:40
  I cannot do the voice exactly right by.
• 21:42
  And then one of my.
• 21:43
  Also from Aztimidasm.
• 21:44
  This is one of my favorite lines.
• 21:46
  So there's.
• 21:48
  There's a scene where on the TV Arthur Reeves is saying, what kind of city are we running when we depend on the support of a potential madman?
• 21:55
  And Alfred turns off the TV and he says, what riot, sir.
• 22:00
  Why, you're the very model of sanity.
• 22:02
  Oh, by the way, I pressed your tights and put away your exploding gas balls.
• 22:06
  That's one of my all time favorites.
• 22:08
  Yeah, so good.
• 23:10
  One of my favorites there.
• 23:12
  And then one from Michael Caine's.
• 23:14
  Alfred has a lot of great quotes throughout the Christopher Nolan trilogy, but I think the penultimate one, it's so simple and it's one that Thomas Wayne says first earlier in Batman Begins and Alfred repeats it later on and
• 23:27
  he says, why do we fall, sir?
• 23:29
  So that we can learn to pick ourselves up.
• 23:31
  And it's just this, you know, perfectly, you know, this passing in the church of how Alfred was always the father figure to Bruce and in his darkest moment he is able to comfort him.
• 23:43
  So I love that.
• 23:44
  And then for a few couple Nightwing and Robin quotes here, there was.
• 23:49
  So one you'll really like is from Tom Taylor's Nightwing run.
• 23:54
  This is early on in the Leaping into the Light storyline, but Alfred says it takes a different hero to help without a Mask, where he's encouraging Dick to really hold on to his mantle as Night Wing and too,
• 24:09
  but also to embrace himself as Dick Grayson.
• 24:13
  And then from Dark Victory, he says to a young Dick Grayson, robin, you are not alone.
• 24:19
  I imagine you never will be again.
• 24:21
  And I just love that too because this is at Dick's lowest point where his parents have been murdered.
• 24:28
  He.
• 24:28
  His life is forever upended and he doesn't really see any way out.
• 24:32
  And Alfred's able to really reassure him in that moment.
• 24:36
  I also reread recently Robin Year One by Chuck Dixon where because they did all the year one books like Robin Year One, Batgirl, Nightwing and the Robin one is really fascinating because a lot of it is narrated by
• 24:51
  Alfred.
• 24:52
  So he's like writing letters where he's following Dick as he's starting out and he's all worried that, oh, Bruce is enlisting a child into his never ending war on crime.
• 25:04
  And rightfully so to have that apprehension.
• 25:08
  But it's a really, I think, beautiful story about how he comes to see Bruce grow as well and how Bruce and Dick needed each other at this time.
• 25:18
  And yeah, so I Think I love how Alfred is the father figure to both of them.
• 25:24
  But yeah, those are just a few of the quotes.
• 25:26
  There's so many more.
• 25:27
  Yeah, and you mentioned Tom Taylor's run on Nightwing, which is one of the best runs in comics ever.
• 25:34
  Not even if you like Nightwing or not, but it's just so freaking good.
• 25:39
  And part of that in the midst of that is when Alfred is killed off.
• 25:43
  And so we.
• 25:44
  Part of this series is that you learn because of his stock and owning stock and Wayne, the Wayne Householder estate, that he is a billionaire too.
• 25:55
  And he's just been stashing this money away and he gives the money to Nightwing to Dick Grayson.
• 26:01
  He inherit.
• 26:02
  Dick Grayson inherits Alfred's billions.
• 26:05
  And so then he starts to think about what, okay, now that I have this money, it's not just Bruce Wayne with all this money.
• 26:11
  I live here and what am I going to do with this money?
• 26:14
  What good am I going to do with it?
• 26:16
  Turn it back into the community.
• 26:17
  You know, in a, in an era where, where we literally look at billionaires as like, wow, what are they doing in this world?
• 26:24
  How are they making, are they making life easier or more difficult?
• 26:26
  And I know where I stand on, on that issue, but the, they've kind of pulled away from characters like Tony Stark and Bruce Wayne as the, the billionaire you look up to and take away some of their money
• 26:39
  to make them more normal and not like the 1% of the world we live in.
• 26:43
  But Dick Gr.
• 26:44
  Inherited this from Alfred.
• 26:46
  The trust that Alfred has for him that he's going to do the right thing with this money is, is huge.
• 26:52
  And so again, yeah, those, those quips and that wisdom that he passes along to both Dick and Bruce there, that he knows who they are.
• 27:01
  He, he sees them without the mask.
• 27:03
  There's only a few people who have seen them with, with that knows their secret identity and who they are with the mask on and with the mask off.
• 27:10
  And so he's their conscious Jiminy Cricket.
• 27:13
  He's walking alongside them, he's making sure they're staying path.
• 27:16
  And there's a whole lot of trust and vulnerability.
• 27:20
  Vulnerability that comes along with that which most of our relationships, if they're true, deep, meaningful relationships you're going to have.
• 27:27
  You need both trust and vulnerability with that 100%.
• 27:30
  I mean, I think that's a perfect summation.
• 27:32
  And, and no, it is like fascinating too.
• 27:35
  I know this is like another topic for looking at how we view Bruce Wayne today.
• 27:42
  And I think honestly, that viewpoint has influenced absolute Batman in many ways, because it's like, okay, how do, not only how do we subvert expectations here and tell an alternate story, but how do we tell a modern Batman
• 27:56
  story where you're actually going to root for him?
• 27:59
  Because no one's really rooting for billionaires these days, rightfully so.
• 28:03
  So let's make Bruce Wayne a blue collar worker and, and he has to, you know, build everything from scratch and, and work himself up and he's, you know, just a citizen like the rest of us.
• 28:16
  Which in some ways gives us more hope that hey, well we can, one of us can become Batman now.
• 28:23
  We don't even have to be a billionaire anymore.
• 28:24
  We just have to really bulk up, you know, and so, but hey, it's possible now.
• 28:30
  And yeah, I'm gonna need that Dark Night Returns where I'm gonna need like an exoskeleton to help my knees and joints and back.
• 28:37
  At this point you need another sabbatical and then you do some training.
• 28:42
  Does it, does it?
• 28:43
  Yep, exactly.
• 28:44
  There you go.
• 28:44
  There you go.
• 28:45
  But yeah, well, looking at the character obviously has this huge mentor relationship and I love that you brought up the Reeves Batman because like you said, you're not really supposed to like that version of Bruce for a lot
• 28:59
  of the movie.
• 29:00
  He is just totally angsty, emo, self centered and he's so obsessed with vengeance and he hasn't even figured out what he wants Batman to be at that point.
• 29:09
  And Alfred is the, I got a guiding force there.
• 29:14
  So with that in mind and with really any Batman story in mind and any Nightwing story, what would these stories be like without Alfred's presence?
• 29:24
  Yeah, I mean that for me that answer is super easy that you don't get a hero, you don't get someone to look up you.
• 29:30
  They, they do go dark, they do break bad, they, they do get sucked in to by any means necessary.
• 29:37
  I'm going to do what I need to do to work out where their trauma I have.
• 29:42
  And so yeah, we've talked to many time like many, many of the difference between a hero and a villain is their response to trauma.
• 29:50
  And in horrible experiences in their own life, do they want to relieve that from others and dedicate their lives so that whatever happened to them doesn't happen to others or I'm going to inflict that on others.
• 30:00
  So I think very well, if Alfred's not there for either of these people, these human beings, they could ease.
• 30:06
  They might start off on the right foot, but they're going to, they're going to cross the line too many times to where they do.
• 30:12
  And.
• 30:13
  And there's no coming back from that.
• 30:15
  So, yeah, he's essential for who.
• 30:17
  Who Batman is.
• 30:18
  And even in the comics, when they kill off Alfred, there are moments where Alfred shows up and is talking to Bruce, and you're like, wow, is this a hologram?
• 30:27
  Is he alive?
• 30:28
  Is this downloaded consciousness like a lantern show?
• 30:31
  Or.
• 30:31
  Or just.
• 30:32
  Or just Bruce remembering who this person is and what he would say in that moment is a deep part of who he is and his own identity.
• 30:40
  Hearing Alfred speak to him, even from the.
• 30:44
  When he's dead, it's not a ghost, not an apparition.
• 30:46
  It's literally him remembering and knowing him so well that he's hearing him talk to him and helping guide him.
• 30:52
  His moral compass in life.
• 30:55
  Totally.
• 30:55
  And, I mean, there are plenty of moments where Batman does almost go down that route.
• 31:01
  I mean, where.
• 31:03
  I mean, in the Dark Knight trilogy, early on, it begins.
• 31:06
  There's the moment where he contemplates Bruce contemplates killing Joe Chill.
• 31:11
  And, you know, and then.
• 31:13
  And also, I think both in Batman Begins and in the Batman, Bruce is very much intent on not caring about his family legacy.
• 31:24
  And, you know, they.
• 31:26
  He's just like.
• 31:27
  That's just a.
• 31:27
  Like, I feel like there's that great scene in Batman Begins where he says, like, I don't care about my name.
• 31:34
  And Alfred has the perfect comeback where he says, because it's not just your name, sir, it's your father's name.
• 31:39
  And it's all that's left to feminine, you know?
• 31:40
  And, like, yeah, there's my.
• 31:42
  My best Michael Caine impression.
• 31:43
  That's good.
• 31:44
  That was a great one.
• 31:46
  Yeah, but.
• 31:47
  But, yeah, no, he is.
• 31:48
  I mean, like, he needs that guidance and he needs that heart and soul to really become who he's meant to be.
• 31:56
  Not just to punch criminals in the face, but to really instill Batman with the symbol that can actually change Gotham for the better.
• 32:08
  So, yeah.
• 32:09
  Yeah, I love it.
• 32:10
  And now, well, if.
• 32:11
  So answer honestly here if you.
• 32:14
  Like, since we're talking about three characters here.
• 32:16
  Okay.
• 32:17
  Would you rather be Alfred, Batman, or Nightwing?
• 32:20
  Man, if I had, like, the acrobat abilities of Nightwing and being raised in a circus, be able to do the leaping and the cool stuff that he does, Nightwing as a hero.
• 32:33
  But.
• 32:34
  But in terms of the safety of the mansion and then taking care of others and doing trauma care and pastoral care and, you know, I'm not a big, like, blood and guts guy, but, you know, if I have
• 32:45
  to stitch somebody up.
• 32:46
  I guess I'll.
• 32:47
  I'll learn.
• 32:47
  But the.
• 32:49
  Alfred's not a bad gig.
• 32:50
  Alfred's not a bad gig.
• 32:51
  It's a good point.
• 32:52
  I mean, you know, he gets to make sandwiches and, and take care of the cave.
• 32:58
  And he also has the military training experience, so he can put up a fight if he needs to.
• 33:03
  And that is something I think.
• 33:04
  Yeah, the Animated Series didn't do as much.
• 33:06
  Obviously.
• 33:06
  The comics explorer and then again with absolute Batman.
• 33:10
  We're getting really into that.
• 33:11
  I mean, obviously different version, but we're making a full on action hero Alfred and it's pretty awesome.
• 33:19
  And then come to think of it though, if he's trying to manage this dude's schedule and social calendar and the fundraisers and being the face of both bruise and protecting his identity and keeping all the equipment in line
• 33:33
  and organized and his.
• 33:35
  Maybe it's not a bad.
• 33:36
  Maybe that is a bad game.
• 33:38
  Trying to keep his closet clean and clothes clean along with going along with like hiding his scars and wounds and bruises and black eyes of whatever he's got to go to next.
• 33:49
  In terms of the fundraiser the next day, that.
• 33:51
  That seems like a hard job.
• 33:53
  So maybe, maybe I just, I think that Grayson, I think I'm gonna lean hard on that now.
• 33:58
  That's fair.
• 33:59
  That's fair.
• 34:00
  I'll give the cliched answer and say, I just want to be Batman.
• 34:03
  I mean, I know it would also get me beat up every day, but still be pretty awesome.
• 34:07
  And I have.
• 34:08
  And, well, and on the note of.
• 34:10
  So with this series, we also look at people in our lives who may have attributes of these characters.
• 34:17
  And that was the fun part of doing the one about Lionel Luthor.
• 34:22
  Joshua and I were both like, okay, I hope you don't have anyone in your life who is very much resembles Lionel Luthor.
• 34:30
  You know, except for politicians, but with Alfred.
• 34:33
  I'm curious, Will, if there's an Alfred figure in your life, either a mentor type figure or it could be a friend.
• 34:42
  I'm curious.
• 34:42
  I do have someone in mind for mine, but.
• 34:44
  Yeah, yeah, that's a great question.
• 34:46
  Great reflection.
• 34:47
  I, you know, I had a.
• 34:48
  My childhood pastor growing up, passed away when I was in college pretty abruptly from.
• 34:54
  From your brain aneurysm.
• 34:55
  And I had just started talking with Pastor McSwain.
• 34:59
  Harold McSwain Shad out to Pastor Harold McSwain putting up with us punk kids and youth group.
• 35:04
  And.
• 35:05
  And I was in college.
• 35:06
  I started thinking about seminary and being able to tell him I was thinking about.
• 35:09
  He started getting me on on that path and started and sometimes I wonder if he had lived and watched me become a pastor and how he would have been a mentor at that.
• 35:17
  He was definitely something I really looked up to as a kid and eventually thinking about seminary.
• 35:22
  He's a big person with that.
• 35:23
  So sometimes I wonder if if he had lived longer what our relationship would have been different or how that my relationship would have been with him.
• 35:31
  Going through seminaries as a mentor.
• 35:34
  And I just have a core group of friends that grew up in the church and one of my best friends, Kevin, yeah his house name is Kevin.
• 35:42
  We've definitely been there when we've gone through hard times and you know, hospital visits or whatever's tragedy is going in our lives.
• 35:49
  Been there for each other.
• 35:50
  So definitely a corporate professor specifically Kevin's been been there for me.
• 35:54
  So.
• 35:54
  So yeah then as someone coming off a sabbatical and as someone who extends pastor to others and non anxious presence and to help people get through life and hopefully share nuggets of wisdom, keep them on the right path
• 36:05
  and not break bad is, you know, I, I've been reflecting on like how am I that for others and what gifts do I have as a mentor for others and a role model and those kinds of things.
• 36:18
  So sporadic was a good time to reflect on those who've been that way for me and then how can I be better for others in that way too moving forward.
• 36:26
  I love it.
• 36:27
  No, and good strong name there, your friend Kevin.
• 36:29
  So there you go.
• 36:31
  Yeah, no, a lot of good guys.
• 36:32
  Yes.
• 36:33
  Yes.
• 36:33
  I love it.
• 36:34
  Well and I think for me, so while I do not have a British like secret agent butler, for me it's, I mean I have had many mentors in my life but I think more for this of Alfred's caregiver
• 36:47
  role.
• 36:48
  And I have had a number of caregivers over the years and, and you know, some have been really long lasting but I joke with them often.
• 36:55
  I'm like hey, you're my Alfred.
• 36:56
  Because I mean you're the one like you know, dress and bathe me, drive me around, do all the fun stuff.
• 37:02
  And then we also, you know, do plenty of stuff together.
• 37:05
  My longest term one is my good friend Randy who has been with me like 14 years like that.
• 37:11
  So he's seen me like college through now like and yeah, so I mean I've got him.
• 37:18
  I was just having dinner with one the other night.
• 37:20
  Get in lines with one tomorrow.
• 37:22
  So that when, when you're disabled.
• 37:24
  Caregiving is something that's like extremely intimate and like and It's a unique kind of relationship, and I see a lot of that with Bruce and Alfred.
• 37:32
  And even in the way, like, even when they butt heads with each other and even with, you know, like, the different types of roles that they have, like, that's one that is really central there.
• 37:44
  So.
• 37:45
  So that's got.
• 37:45
  Yeah, no, I, like, I tell all my caregivers, I'm like, yep, you're my Alfred.
• 37:50
  I love that.
• 37:51
  And that kind of trust, vulnerability.
• 37:53
  But then use another word, intimacy.
• 37:55
  And in the midst of those things, you're not going to always agree.
• 37:58
  You're going to butt heads at time, you're going to get frustrated.
• 38:01
  But because of that, trust, vulnerability, and being able to be intimate with other person, with your true self and who you are, what you need, and to be honest with that, yeah, you come back around and you're able
• 38:13
  to work together as a team.
• 38:14
  So I like that.
• 38:15
  That's.
• 38:16
  That's good, man.
• 38:16
  Man, that's.
• 38:17
  That's beautiful.
• 38:18
  It's good stuff.
• 38:19
  So.
• 38:19
  Yeah, no, I mean, another way.
• 38:21
  I, like, I.
• 38:22
  I've been called the Batman at work.
• 38:24
  Like, like, that's my role there.
• 38:26
  So I'm, you know, I'm embracing it one day.
• 38:28
  Like, I mean, I'll.
• 38:29
  I'll have the chair just like Batmobile.
• 38:31
  We'll make it happen.
• 38:32
  But, yeah, you can be Nightwing.
• 38:33
  We'll.
• 38:33
  We'll take on crime.
• 38:34
  I'll be.
• 38:35
  I'll be your Nightwing.
• 38:35
  Any day, Kevin.
• 38:36
  Any day.
• 38:37
  Awesome.
• 38:37
  Good stuff.
• 38:38
  Yeah, I love it.
• 38:39
  Awesome.
• 38:40
  Well, and, well, the.
• 38:41
  I would love to continue this conversation, but.
• 38:43
  Because we could talk about this for hours, but we do have.
• 38:47
  With this series specifically, we've got a bonus question for our Patreon subscribers, or, sorry, Fourth Wall subscribers, whatever the.
• 38:58
  The platform is where you become an extra awesome supporter.
• 39:04
  So we have a question here that is only for those listeners.
• 39:08
  And again, if you want to become a supporter, just click on the links in the description.
• 39:12
  But our bonus question for today is if you could have Alfred mentor someone in the Marvel universe, who would you pick?
• 39:20
  So we're gonna get to that in just a few.
• 39:25
  But, Will, before we close out of this episode, do you have a recommendation either related to this topic or something totally different?
• 39:34
  I mean, I know we already touched on a lot of comics and movies and shows, but.
• 39:38
  But what's your recommendation pick for today?
• 39:41
  Yeah, I.
• 39:41
  I would say I.
• 39:43
  I got two.
• 39:44
  One is the Tom Taylor run with.
• 39:46
  With Nightwing.
• 39:47
  It's just.
• 39:47
  It's just really good.
• 39:48
  And you can get like a Cute dog in it.
• 39:50
  And a lot, A lot of cool new stuff in the art's fantastic.
• 39:55
  So Tom.
• 39:55
  Tom Taylor's run on Nightwing.
• 39:58
  Awesome.
• 39:58
  And then also their comic just came out last week, is called.
• 40:02
  It's like a Muppets Marvel crossover for the 50th anniversary of the Muppets.
• 40:07
  A big Muppet fan.
• 40:08
  And so this is big mashup of Marvel heroes with the Muppets as they go to Mojo Verse and a reality show.
• 40:15
  And I was just giggling through this entire comic book.
• 40:19
  It is so good, it's so witty.
• 40:21
  And to see the pairings of whether it's Animal and Wolverine or Deadpool and Gonzo because they're both weirdos.
• 40:27
  And then you have Spider man literally looking up to Fozzie because Fozzie has these jokes and Spider Man's like, this guy's good.
• 40:35
  And then.
• 40:36
  And is like jokes to him like, hey, I got some stuff I want to work out with you.
• 40:40
  What do you think about?
• 40:40
  And he's like.
• 40:41
  I was just like, we don't have time right now.
• 40:42
  We got to do what we need to do.
• 40:43
  So it is.
• 40:44
  I was just giggling through the whole thing, and it was very well written and very good.
• 40:48
  So go.
• 40:48
  Go out there.
• 40:49
  It's kind of an expensive comic, but it's worth it.
• 40:51
  I think it's Marvel Muffets Destroy the Marvel Universe or Muppets and Marvel.
• 40:55
  Anyway, you'll find it.
• 40:56
  It just came out and I highly recommend it.
• 40:59
  It sounds like the.
• 41:00
  Did you read the Jay and Silent Bob Meet the Marvel Universe comic that Kevin Smith?
• 41:05
  Yeah, it's very.
• 41:06
  That's it.
• 41:06
  That's very, very similar with the, with the Muppets, with a great host of.
• 41:10
  It's like an anthology.
• 41:10
  The main story is what I was giggling through the whole thing, but the other stories are really good, too.
• 41:14
  Nice.
• 41:15
  Yeah.
• 41:15
  J Of Future Past.
• 41:16
  I, I, I still love that.
• 41:17
  I've got that one up on my shelf here.
• 41:19
  But, yeah, great picks there.
• 41:21
  I'm also going to give two quick ones.
• 41:24
  One is absolute Batman if you haven't read again, like, for a totally different take on these characters.
• 41:31
  And it's just awesome.
• 41:32
  Amazing art.
• 41:33
  That's just, It's a phenomenal story.
• 41:35
  And then this is a book that I recommended, I think, on a previous episode as well, but it's called I Am the Knight, and it's a history of Batman, the Animated Series.
• 41:44
  It just came out recently.
• 41:45
  I actually got, I got to meet the author because he was doing a signing near South Point at the Barnes and noble there a few weeks ago, but by Daniel Dockery and he's a North Carolina based writer.
• 41:57
  But it was fascinating.
• 41:58
  I read that book in a weekend.
• 42:00
  It also delves into animation at the time.
• 42:03
  So really fascinating stuff.
• 42:04
  Says I am the Knight spelled KN I.
• 42:07
  No, it is, it is N I A G H T because it's the quote from the Animated Series where he says I am the night.
• 42:14
  I am.
• 42:14
  I am vengeance.
• 42:15
  I am the knight.
• 42:16
  I am Batman.
• 42:18
  You recommended that History of Superman book and, and that was fantastic.
• 42:21
  This one, this one is Batman's version.
• 42:24
  So that's good.
• 42:25
  Yeah, it good stuff.
• 42:27
  Awesome.
• 42:27
  Well, again, thank you to all.
• 42:29
  Will, thank you so much.
• 42:30
  This was a blast.
• 42:31
  I know we can go on for hours here and for our listeners and viewers out there, please rate and review the show.
• 42:38
  Wherever you get your podcast, we'd really appreciate it and also want to thank Ethan Overcast for your support.
• 42:44
  We really appreciate it and do check out our merch store.
• 42:48
  A lot of cool stuff out there.
• 42:50
  You can also.
• 42:51
  So and again, the playlist for this series is in the description, so if you want to check out all of the faces behind us, you can check all of that here.
• 43:02
  Really good stuff.
• 43:03
  All right, well, Nightwing, it is time to sign off and return to the bat cave.
• 43:08
  But although we will stick around for a few extra minutes to answer our bonus question.
• 43:11
  But for main listeners, we are signing off.
• 43:14
  So remember, hey, there is an Alfred for all of us out there.
• 43:19
  So treasure the Alfred in your life and and go geek out.