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3 Tots Die in Icy Waters After MOMMY FLIPS SUV, MOM HIGH · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Three little children, three children dead,
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Speaker 1: ages four, three and one. Why because of Mommy, I'm
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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being
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Speaker 1: with us here at Fox Nation in series XM one eleven.
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Speaker 1: First of all, take a looks than to our friends
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Speaker 1: at Fox seventeen. Deputy say, a mother was driving down
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Speaker 1: James Road here right after eleven o'clock this morning when
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Speaker 1: she lost control, veered across the lane, flipped and ended
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Speaker 1: up in a retention pond. I'm going to step out
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Speaker 1: of the way actually so you can see where that
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Speaker 1: suv ended up in the water, which is about three
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Speaker 1: to four feet deep according to police. Now, Deputy say,
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Speaker 1: three kids were in child restraint seats and were under
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Speaker 1: water when rescue crews arrived. One two of the brothers,
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Speaker 1: a three and a four year old, died at the hospital.
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Speaker 1: The one year old is in critical condition tonight. The
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Speaker 1: mother was able to escape from the vehicle and is
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Speaker 1: hospitalized as well. So far, please haven't released any further
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Speaker 1: information or the names of these victims. Three young children,
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Speaker 1: Jerome the third, age four, Jeremiah age three, and Josiah
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Speaker 1: age one. Mommy Letitia Marie it's all on you. Eleven am.
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Speaker 1: Was this an accident where the roads wet was at
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Speaker 1: a dark and rainy and cloudy? Was it snowing? Or
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Speaker 1: was there another reason Mommy couldn't keep the car on
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Speaker 1: the road At eleven a m. Again, I mean, I
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Speaker 1: see Grayson is his crime stories. Thank you so much
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Speaker 1: for being with us. Second verse, same as the first,
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Speaker 1: Mommy as high as a kite. Listen to Doug Rearden
2:02
Speaker 1: in our cut two Fox seventeen. Thanks got worse for
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Speaker 1: that family and for that community. Today, the youngest of
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Speaker 1: those three boys, just one year old, died this morning
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Speaker 1: and the last hour authorities confirmed to us that the
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Speaker 1: four boys are Three boys are four year old Jerome
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Speaker 1: Gonzalez and three year old Jeremiah Gonzalez, who died at
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Speaker 1: the hospital yesterday, and now one year old Josiah Gonzalez,
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Speaker 1: who died today. Onto A County deputies say they got
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Speaker 1: the first call at eleven oh four in the morning yesterday,
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Speaker 1: and when they arrived at the scene, the thirty year
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Speaker 1: old woman who was driving was out of the carpet
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Speaker 1: in the water, frantically trying to save those three boys.
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Speaker 1: Deputies who jumped in with no wetsuits had everybody out
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Speaker 1: just ten to twelve minutes later, but it was too late.
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Speaker 1: Why does that always happen? Cheryl McCollum found a director
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Speaker 1: call Case Research Institute. Why does the purp live and
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Speaker 1: everybody else, all the innocent people die. It happens over
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Speaker 1: and over. It's one of the horrible aspects of this
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Speaker 1: whole thing. And a lot of the crashes are talking
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Speaker 1: about whoa whoa, whoa whoa. Wait a minute, did you
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Speaker 1: say accident? I did? Why did you say that this
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Speaker 1: was no accident, Cheryl McCollum. It's not an accident. It's
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Speaker 1: a straight up crime. There's no question about it. And
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Speaker 1: you know, Nancy again, how many times have you and
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Speaker 1: I talked about these cases? There are one hundred percent preventable,
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Speaker 1: these these crashes that you know you start out your day.
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Speaker 1: I mean her her day was not to hurt her children,
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Speaker 1: much less kill them. You know what, Cheryl, correct me
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Speaker 1: if I'm wrong, But um, did you get a law school? No? Oh, okay,
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Speaker 1: because let me remind you that the black and white
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Speaker 1: letter of the law. And I don't mean to be harsh,
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Speaker 1: but this is reality. The black and white letter of
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Speaker 1: the law is, and this is codified. The law assumes
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Speaker 1: you intend the natural consequence of your act. And I
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Speaker 1: said that slowly, because when I was in law school,
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Speaker 1: I had been in English Experience, literature professor. I did
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Speaker 1: not know what anybody was talking about. I had to
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Speaker 1: take these big, long sentences and break them down and
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Speaker 1: say them over and over until I really got it.
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Speaker 1: The law assumes you intend the natural consequence of your act.
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Speaker 1: You get drunk, you get high, and then you get
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Speaker 1: the key of the car, your Chevy Tahoe, and you
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Speaker 1: get in the car, after you put your children in
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Speaker 1: the car, your three babies, and you turn the ignition
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Speaker 1: and you take off. The law assumes you intend to
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Speaker 1: drive drunk or high, and the natural consequence of that
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Speaker 1: is a crash where your children die. Now that's the law.
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Speaker 1: And you waxing philosophically romantically, I might even say that
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Speaker 1: this is not what she intended when she woke up. Yeah, okay,
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Speaker 1: don't care, they're dead. Well, I'll say something that's not romantic.
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Speaker 1: Let's just get down to it. Thirty two people die
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Speaker 1: every day. That means somebody's going to die during the
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Speaker 1: episode of your show today, one hundred and twenty people
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Speaker 1: will be severely injured again because somebody made the decision
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Speaker 1: to not call an uber, not stay home, not get
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Speaker 1: a designated driver. They did that. There's no question about it.
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Speaker 1: And it's not just that, Cheryl McCollum. I mean, listen,
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Speaker 1: I'm a JD, not a DDS. I don't know how
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Speaker 1: to pull your teeth McCallum. I mean I had to
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Speaker 1: pull that out of you. I'm gonna let you think
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Speaker 1: about that and your actions for a few moments. Doctor
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Speaker 1: Angie Arnold joining me, renowned psychiatrist of the Atlanta Jurisdiction.
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Speaker 1: You can find her at Angela Arnold MD dot com.
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Speaker 1: Doctor Angie, what Cheryl McCollum just said after I pulled
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Speaker 1: that out of her is absolutely correct, But it's not
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Speaker 1: is taking your own life in your hands when you
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Speaker 1: at end the lives of three helpless children Jerome four,
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Speaker 1: Jeremiah three, Josiah one. I mean, that's a whole another
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Speaker 1: lair of wrongdoing. Oh. I agree with you, Nancy, and
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Speaker 1: I don't know how. I don't know how this woman's
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Speaker 1: going to ever live with herself. You know, I wonder
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Speaker 1: about that, doctor Andre, because some people, I guarantee you
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Speaker 1: will say, oh, it was an accident. It's not an accident.
6:35
Speaker 1: You know. I want to go to doctor William Moroney.
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Speaker 1: Doctor Moroney not just an incredibly famous chief medical examiner
6:44
Speaker 1: joining us out of Michigan. He's the author of American Narkham,
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Speaker 1: but not only that, he has created in Commandeers, a
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Speaker 1: mobile drug treatment unit. He's putting his time, has effort,
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Speaker 1: his money, his energy while he's raising children to help
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Speaker 1: other people with drug problems. You know, doctor Moroney, you've
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Speaker 1: seen it all, and I guarantee you people like this
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Speaker 1: woman Letitia Marie will rationalize to herself, oh, you know what,
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Speaker 1: I didn't mean that to happen. I'm so torn up,
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Speaker 1: be as Maroney. You know, what we have here is
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Speaker 1: the investigation is going to need to do drug and
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Speaker 1: alcohol testing at a level to decide it's an automotive accident,
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Speaker 1: but it was caused by an individual that may have
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Speaker 1: been impaired. There's a lot of testing that goes. If
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Speaker 1: she has drugs at a level that made her incompetent
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Speaker 1: and incapable of driving, well, then somebody's culpable and that
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Speaker 1: brings in the homicide. But as a medical examiner, I
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Speaker 1: would say that the choice. You have five choices on
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Speaker 1: a death certificate accident, homicide, natural suicide, and indeterminate. The
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Speaker 1: medical examine or that county may think it's too complicated
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Speaker 1: to call it an accident or a homicide, and then
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Speaker 1: the default on the death certificates would be indeterminate. You know,
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Speaker 1: doctor Marney, I wasn't really asking you as a medical examiner.
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Speaker 1: I was asking you as someone who has been around
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Speaker 1: so many attics in your lifetime. It's always a shape
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Speaker 1: shifting thing. They blame everybody but themselves. Look, I'm all
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Speaker 1: about forgiveness. I'm all about doing the right thing, but
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Speaker 1: I'm also about you do a horrible crime. You caused
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Speaker 1: the death of three infants. You're going to jail for
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Speaker 1: a long time. You can get saved and get for heaven,
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Speaker 1: get forgiven behind bars. What I'm asking you about is,
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Speaker 1: after all the attics you've seen, they shift the blame.
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Speaker 1: I guarantee she's not gonna be all torn up that
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Speaker 1: this is her fault. She is going to say this
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Speaker 1: was an accident. I didn't mean it. That's where that's
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Speaker 1: where her mind is. Drug use can never excuse a
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Speaker 1: criminal fatal behavior in a good, legitimate court that will
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Speaker 1: be clearly determined. Drug use can never be an excuse
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Speaker 1: for criminal fatal behavior. Um, you know what, Jackie, I
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Speaker 1: want to talk about a mom you brought up right
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Speaker 1: before we went to air and I said it was
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Speaker 1: completely dissimilar. Susan Smith. Will you pull up that sound
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Speaker 1: for me and tell me when you've got it? Dave
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Speaker 1: Mac what happened in the case where Letitia Marie Gonzalez
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Speaker 1: was driving and ends up with three dead babies strapped
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Speaker 1: in in the back? Nancy? Shockingly enough, this happened around
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Speaker 1: eleven o'clock in the morning. The road conditions perfectly clear.
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Speaker 1: There's no snow, no sleep, no rain, The roads are dry. Okay,
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Speaker 1: whoa wa wa wait tell me that again. No snow,
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Speaker 1: no sleet, no rain, dry roads, no reason for anything
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Speaker 1: bad to happen. But it did. She the driver, missus Gonzalez,
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Speaker 1: swore it went across the opposite lanes of traffic, hit
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Speaker 1: a curb. The Chevy Tahoe rolled over and landed in
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Speaker 1: a retention pond that was about three to four feet
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Speaker 1: deep with water. However, it had about six inches of
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Speaker 1: frozen ice on top. The vehicle landed on its hood
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Speaker 1: on the top and the three boys ages four, three,
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Speaker 1: and one were trapped in their car seats in the vehicle.
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Speaker 1: Missus Gonzalez got out of the vehicle herself. Nine one
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Speaker 1: one was getting calls of people, you know, noting the
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Speaker 1: accident or the wreck. Fire. Rescue was unseen within minutes
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Speaker 1: and where they were able to get the boys out
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Speaker 1: of the vehicle. However, the three year old and four
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Speaker 1: year old died at the hospital later that day. The
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Speaker 1: one year old died the next day. And they call
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Speaker 1: it they all drowned. Benzal Is herself was able to
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Speaker 1: get out of the car. Time stories with Nancy Grace.
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Speaker 1: Let me understand something, Doctor William Ronney joining me, chief
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Speaker 1: medical examiner, are joining side of Michigan. How is it
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Speaker 1: that you drown like a delayed drowning because they were
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Speaker 1: alive when nine on one got there and then they
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Speaker 1: died at the hospital. How does that happen? Drowning is
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Speaker 1: the end result of not enough oxygen getting to the
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Speaker 1: brain because of water in the lungs and then the
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Speaker 1: sinus and you can't get all the water out and
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Speaker 1: it begins a process that we would call a sequela
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Speaker 1: of anoxia. What a sequela of an anoxia, and anoxic
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Speaker 1: brain damage comes because ice, cold water, regular water, it
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Speaker 1: doesn't matter. It gets in the body and it starts
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Speaker 1: this anoxic cycle, and it's without oxygen, anoxia without oxygen.
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Speaker 1: And just because you can clear the water when you
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Speaker 1: get to the hospital doesn't mean I mean the brain
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Speaker 1: dies in five to six minutes. So if they're under
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Speaker 1: water for five to six minutes and they're extracted at thirty,
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Speaker 1: morally and ethically, ms still have to take them to
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Speaker 1: the hospital. You don't pronounce children in a retention pond.
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Speaker 1: You put them in the burney, You get them in
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Speaker 1: the ambulance, you run them through we are, you get
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Speaker 1: them to U. You give children every possible opportunity for
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Speaker 1: revival and miracles. We don't pronounce people dead unseen and
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Speaker 1: you just hope for the best. But realistically, brain dies
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Speaker 1: in five to six minutes without oxygen. I know the
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Speaker 1: medical examiner determined the voice actually drowned. I'm trying to
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Speaker 1: figure out how this whole thing went down. Letitia Marie
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Speaker 1: a thirty one, veered left across east bound lanes of traffic,
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Speaker 1: crossing multiple lanes. It's a miracle she didn't have a
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Speaker 1: head on collision with oncoming traffic and then somehow goes
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Speaker 1: off the road, catapults the tahoe and ends up upside
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Speaker 1: down in frigid, icy water. And those or the last
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Speaker 1: minutes of these boys lives as they scream out for who, mommy, mommy.
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Speaker 1: I can't be in a grocery store or a mall
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Speaker 1: or anywhere when I hear somebody say mommy. It's like
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Speaker 1: a shock goes through my system because I'm so used
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Speaker 1: to turning and find what is it to Wendy Patrick,
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Speaker 1: California prosecutor, author of Red Flags. You can find her
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Speaker 1: at Wendy Patrick PhD dot com, the host of Today
14:32
Speaker 1: with Doctor Wendy on KCBQ San Diego. Wendy, can you
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Speaker 1: imagine what these children lived through in their last moments?
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Speaker 1: A drowning death is one of the worst deaths you
14:46
Speaker 1: can have because you're conscious until the last moments. Now,
14:51
Speaker 1: that's absolutely right, Nancy. This is just tragic. And you know,
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Speaker 1: this is why driving under the influence is a crime.
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Speaker 1: You know, you talk about natural concert clinches. The jury
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Speaker 1: instructions talk about knowledge and intent. I mean, I know
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Speaker 1: parents that won't even drive their precious cargo. I either
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Speaker 1: children if they're tired, much less if they know they've
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Speaker 1: they've ingested and intoxican, regardless of how they think that
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Speaker 1: they feel. So this is one of those cases where
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Speaker 1: not only is it inexcusable regarding that the driving, but
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Speaker 1: as you mentioned, the cause of death and more just
15:26
Speaker 1: it's almost tragic to think about the manner of death
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Speaker 1: and what it must have been like in those last moments. Guys,
15:32
Speaker 1: take a listen to our friends at Fox seventeen, our
15:34
Speaker 1: cut three. Now they have to use witness interviews and
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Speaker 1: any video they can find, as well as markings on
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Speaker 1: the ground and on the suv to figure out how
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Speaker 1: the car left the road in the first place. And
15:44
Speaker 1: on top of it all, they're dealing with the errific
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Speaker 1: loss of three young members of their community. Can imagine
15:51
Speaker 1: pretty much everybody that was out there yesterday as a
15:54
Speaker 1: father or a mother and then to have to deal
15:58
Speaker 1: with that, but it doesn't compare to what the family
16:04
Speaker 1: is going through, and our heart squat to them and
16:08
Speaker 1: hal and Jaugio Fire Rescue also responded to that on Thursday.
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Speaker 1: We also know all three of those kids were wearing
16:13
Speaker 1: approved the child safety seats at the time of the crash.
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Speaker 1: I mean, Cheryl McCollum. I'd be lying if I said
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Speaker 1: my heart didn't break for the mother who caused this
16:24
Speaker 1: for the family. But Lady Justice is wearing a blindfold
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Speaker 1: for a reason. She may be heartbroken now, but again,
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Speaker 1: the law is clear, and I am quoting directly from
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Speaker 1: the black and white letter of the law. One may
16:44
Speaker 1: immediately regret the deed, but that does not negate intent
16:50
Speaker 1: or malfeasance at the time the act was committed. She
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Speaker 1: may be heartbroken right now. I'm sure she is heartbroken
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Speaker 1: right now, But under the law, the law has to
17:01
Speaker 1: decide what happened when these children died at the hands
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Speaker 1: of mommy. As a matter of fact, take a listen
17:12
Speaker 1: to a recounting of the Susan Smith story. Our lives
17:18
Speaker 1: have been torn apart by this tragic event. In nineteen
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Speaker 1: ninety four, Susan Smith claimed she was carjacked by a
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Speaker 1: black man who took off with her two young sons
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Speaker 1: in the back seat. She pleaded for the safe return
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Speaker 1: of her boys, fourteen month old Alex and three year
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Speaker 1: old Michael. I would like to say to whoever has
17:40
Speaker 1: my children that they please may please bring them home,
17:47
Speaker 1: little by little, twenty three year old Smith's story fell
17:50
Speaker 1: apart until this bombshell announcement. Susan Smith has been arrested
17:57
Speaker 1: and we'll be charged with two counts of murder in
18:00
Speaker 1: connection for the dance of her children. In reality, Smith
18:04
Speaker 1: let her car roll down a boat ramp into this
18:06
Speaker 1: lake with her two boys still strapped in their car
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Speaker 1: seats in the back. The reason, according to authorities, she
18:13
Speaker 1: was having an affair with a man who didn't want children.
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Speaker 1: Both of her sons drowned. You're hearing our friendlist Trent
18:19
Speaker 1: at Inside Edition. So my question, let me put a
18:22
Speaker 1: hard question to you, Cheryl McCollum, How was that any
18:27
Speaker 1: different from Letitia Marie because same end result. The little
18:34
Speaker 1: boys are upside down underwater, strapped in seat belts, dead
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Speaker 1: because of mommy, Susan Smith, as she's begging the public
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Speaker 1: for help. What a fake, what a liar? Knowing where
18:50
Speaker 1: the boys were the whole time, at the bottom of
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Speaker 1: the pond here, I mean there, we know she intended
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Speaker 1: the whole thing, But here Mommy intended to get high
19:01
Speaker 1: before she got behind the wheel and rosodically strapped her
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Speaker 1: boys in ages four, three and one. Well I'm gonna
19:08
Speaker 1: start there. This lady strapped her children in for safety.
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Speaker 1: Susan Smith strapped hers in so they couldn't get out.
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Speaker 1: Completely different, even though the end result is the same
19:22
Speaker 1: and it's still going to be murder. And here's the deal.
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Speaker 1: This lady leaves her house, puts her children in a
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Speaker 1: car for safety to head wherever she's going. She never
19:32
Speaker 1: dreamed that that car was fixing to end up upside
19:36
Speaker 1: down in icy water. Susan Smith got in her car,
19:40
Speaker 1: strapped her children in so they could not escape, got
19:43
Speaker 1: out of her car, let that car slowly go into
19:47
Speaker 1: that water and sink while her babies were screaming for her.
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Speaker 1: Completely different, devil. Everything that you just said is correct,
19:56
Speaker 1: however non responsive My question, why how is the end
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Speaker 1: result any different? The boys are dead and mommy is
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Speaker 1: the reason that's the end result. One intended it from
20:13
Speaker 1: a plan, a premeditated plan. The other brought about the
20:17
Speaker 1: same end result by driving high. As a matter of fact,
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Speaker 1: Dave Mattcrime online dot Com, what was in her system
20:25
Speaker 1: I'm talking about, Leticia Marie. Leticia Marie Gonzas was actually
20:29
Speaker 1: taking methodone as on a daily basis with an actual
20:34
Speaker 1: methodone clinic as part of a recovery program. The initial
20:41
Speaker 1: dosage that she took at six thirty that morning after
20:43
Speaker 1: clinic was her normal dosage. However, within thirty minutes, she
20:48
Speaker 1: was on the phone with a connection somebody she knew
20:51
Speaker 1: that also had methodone and was hitting up this other
20:55
Speaker 1: individual to what she said in the text was borrow
20:58
Speaker 1: a dose. So she was already taking She'd already taken
21:03
Speaker 1: her normal dose for the day, so she would be okay.
21:05
Speaker 1: But she wilfully and intentionally went and got another dose,
21:10
Speaker 1: knowing the end result would be that she would be high. Okay,
21:14
Speaker 1: I need you. Doctor William Maroney, chief medical examiner joining
21:18
Speaker 1: Sout of Michigan and author and father, explain to my mind,
21:23
Speaker 1: methadone is a recovery drug that you use as kind
21:28
Speaker 1: of a path to get off of a more serious
21:31
Speaker 1: drug like heroine. But what are the effects of methadone. Well,
21:36
Speaker 1: if you take the dose that's prescribed, and only the
21:40
Speaker 1: dose that's prescribed, the effect is it takes the way
21:45
Speaker 1: cravings in your desire to use pain pills or heroine.
21:51
Speaker 1: But if you go double your dose, if you take
21:55
Speaker 1: more than your dose, and if you go to somebody's
21:58
Speaker 1: house and take double the dose to what you had
22:00
Speaker 1: in your clinic. Well, that's not supervised, it's not structured,
22:06
Speaker 1: and it is bootleg methodone because it's distributed illegally. It's
22:12
Speaker 1: illegal for somebody to take their dose and casually move
22:17
Speaker 1: it over to a friend. That's illegal. That's drug diversion.
22:22
Speaker 1: That is not a clinical event. Drug diversion. What's drug diversion.
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Speaker 1: Diversion is using a medicine in any way other than
22:31
Speaker 1: as it was intended, meaning the time, or the strength,
22:38
Speaker 1: or for the purpose. If you take methodone because you say,
22:42
Speaker 1: you know what, it helps my anxiety, hey, it's not intended.
22:46
Speaker 1: It's not approved for your anxiety. That's drug diversion. And
22:50
Speaker 1: that's the same as giving methodone to your next door neighbor.
22:53
Speaker 1: You know, it sounds so casual in the text. And
22:56
Speaker 1: let me throw that to you, doctor Angelaarnold. Everybody, again,
23:00
Speaker 1: this isn't high Tea at High Grove. All right, you
23:03
Speaker 1: don't have the Queen and her corgis here, so jump
23:05
Speaker 1: in if you have a thought, whether you agree or
23:09
Speaker 1: disagree with me, and let's figure this out. To doctor
23:12
Speaker 1: Angie Arnold, it sounds so innocuous, almost cozy. Hey can
23:17
Speaker 1: I borrow a dose? It's like can I borrow a
23:19
Speaker 1: cup of sugar? It casualizes it. And Nancy, most people
23:24
Speaker 1: don't understand what goes on at a methodone clinic. I
23:27
Speaker 1: don't really. I mean, I've gone there to find witnesses,
23:31
Speaker 1: but I didn't take time to figure out what was
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Speaker 1: going on medically. I mean, Nancy, So the doctor is
23:39
Speaker 1: in the methodone clinic and the patients come in, And
23:41
Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you something. When I worked at
23:43
Speaker 1: a methodone clinic, every patient that I saw during the
23:47
Speaker 1: day asked me for more methodone. They are drug seeking.
23:52
Speaker 1: Typically methodone is oftentimes a last resort to get them
23:56
Speaker 1: off of something else. I have to remember that they're
23:59
Speaker 1: drug thinking. And I'm wondering how many times this woman
24:02
Speaker 1: had done us. This was not the first time she
24:05
Speaker 1: ever did this, you know, Nancy, this is Wendy, This
24:08
Speaker 1: type of off label use of narcotics what doctor Moroney
24:12
Speaker 1: is referring to its drug diversion that in in itself
24:15
Speaker 1: is a misuse. And this is just another aggravent in
24:18
Speaker 1: terms of drugs seeking behavior. And then followed by driving
24:22
Speaker 1: with your three babies in the car, So the knowing
24:25
Speaker 1: more about the underlying facts and circumstances and the throes
24:29
Speaker 1: of addiction. And I mean, let's call it out like
24:31
Speaker 1: it is. Otherwise that initial dose would have been sufficient.
24:34
Speaker 1: But even that initial dose, no doubt she was told
24:37
Speaker 1: that she can't drive or operate machinery all the different
24:40
Speaker 1: you know, dangerous warnings that that comes with. So that
24:44
Speaker 1: just goes to the knowledge aspect of what can happen
24:47
Speaker 1: if you do that? What kind of handy I gotta
24:49
Speaker 1: jump in here too, Yeah, and but remind me after
24:51
Speaker 1: you finished, Cheryl McCollum, I want to ask Maroney about
24:55
Speaker 1: the effects of methadone. Is it like being on cracks?
24:58
Speaker 1: It light being on meth being on a pot? I
25:01
Speaker 1: don't know. We really haven't seen a lot of crimes
25:06
Speaker 1: committed when you're high on methodone. But I want to
25:09
Speaker 1: circle back to him. But go ahead, Cheryl, please, I
25:11
Speaker 1: just want to peeyback on what Wendy was saying. You know,
25:15
Speaker 1: damn well not to drive if you've used niquel, it
25:18
Speaker 1: tells you right on the label don't drive. You certainly
25:21
Speaker 1: know if you're home methodone. And I just want to
25:23
Speaker 1: point out because I know you, as my former prosecutor,
25:26
Speaker 1: would have done this. She committed at least three crimes
25:29
Speaker 1: before she ever got in that car. She obtained it illegally,
25:33
Speaker 1: possessed it illegally, consumed it illegally before she ever got
25:37
Speaker 1: in that car. You know why that's so important, Cheryl,
25:39
Speaker 1: because a lot of people consider a drunken accident they
25:45
Speaker 1: think it's an accident as opposed to a crime. They
25:49
Speaker 1: think that it was unintentional. But the reality is is
25:53
Speaker 1: you take a lot of intentional steps before you are
25:56
Speaker 1: out on the road drunk or high. And you're just
26:01
Speaker 1: pointing out three illegal acts before the final three homicides
26:06
Speaker 1: of a four year old, a three year old, and
26:09
Speaker 1: a one year old little boy. And speaking of the
26:11
Speaker 1: little boys, listen to this the oldest I'm reading from
26:14
Speaker 1: their obituary. You know that almost just actually hurt my
26:18
Speaker 1: stomach because I think about my children, John, David, and
26:22
Speaker 1: Lucy in the same sentence as obituary, and it tastes
26:28
Speaker 1: like dirt in my mouth. The oldest, four year old,
26:31
Speaker 1: Jerome the third, was protective of his younger brothers. At
26:36
Speaker 1: four years old, he would protect his younger brothers, while
26:39
Speaker 1: Jeremiah three and Josiah One like to play with toy cars.
26:46
Speaker 1: They were joyful and active. They loved to dance, at
26:50
Speaker 1: play at the park, at home, they played games all
26:55
Speaker 1: the time. Just thinking about them, and I'm looking at
26:58
Speaker 1: their pictures. Three little brothers dead in an icy pond
27:03
Speaker 1: thanks to mommy. Take a listen. This is very critical
27:08
Speaker 1: to our cut five. This is Captain Jay Douglas at
27:11
Speaker 1: the Ottawa County Sheriff's office. When I got out there
27:16
Speaker 1: hour and a half after the crash occurred, the roads
27:18
Speaker 1: were dry. So in my opinion, the road conditions didn't
27:24
Speaker 1: play a factor in this crash. You know, the investigation
27:28
Speaker 1: could prove differently. But there wasn't snow, there wasn't ice,
27:30
Speaker 1: they weren't wet. We have nothing to lead us to
27:33
Speaker 1: believe that there was any pre impact type of accident.
27:39
Speaker 1: Doesn't appear to be any contact between the victim's vehicle
27:43
Speaker 1: or anyone else. Well, it's exactly like you said, Dave
27:46
Speaker 1: mac joining us some crime online dot com. No snow,
27:48
Speaker 1: no sleet, no rain, nothing, eleven AM high visibility, but
27:54
Speaker 1: mommy still veers across multiple lanes eastbound and catapults or
27:59
Speaker 1: vehicle upside down into a drainage pond Time Stories with
28:17
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, doctor William Moroney joining us, author of American
28:25
Speaker 1: narcan can you tell me what the methodone high is like?
28:30
Speaker 1: Is it like heroine, crag meth pot which one? Well,
28:34
Speaker 1: it's not a stimulant and it's not like cannabis. It
28:39
Speaker 1: follows the category of opioids. Taking too much methodone, exceeding
28:45
Speaker 1: your prescribed dose of methodone would be like taking too
28:49
Speaker 1: many pain pills, and it would be like using heroin.
28:53
Speaker 1: It comes with sedation, a sense of well being and drowsiness.
28:58
Speaker 1: That's why she reared across lanes, a sense of relaxation.
29:04
Speaker 1: And then when you see somebody they have pinpoint pupils,
29:08
Speaker 1: pinpoint teeny tiny little pinpoint pupils. That's a sign of
29:12
Speaker 1: opius and the drug recognition expert for law enforcement, and
29:18
Speaker 1: there's probably about a thousand of them in Michigan on
29:20
Speaker 1: Michigan roads. The sheriffs and the Michigan State Police recognize
29:24
Speaker 1: those pinpoint pupils and somebody needs to be drug screened.
29:28
Speaker 1: But they have a decrease in blood pressure, a decrease
29:31
Speaker 1: in heart rate, and breeding can become extremely shallow at
29:35
Speaker 1: high doses. But it's that drowsyit and that sense of relaxation.
29:44
Speaker 1: A patient taking too much method owner any opioid is
29:49
Speaker 1: looking for numbness. They want they want to feel numb.
29:53
Speaker 1: Sometimes they call it oblivion because they can't deal with
29:57
Speaker 1: the stress around them. At the proper dose, it takes
30:00
Speaker 1: away cravings for heroin. At a higher dose, it's just
30:04
Speaker 1: the same as any other diverted drug. It's not intended
30:10
Speaker 1: to make you drowsy. It's not intended to relax you
30:14
Speaker 1: so much. Between beer cross lanes and this vehicle flipped
30:19
Speaker 1: because of a high rate of speed. Because ivan, when
30:23
Speaker 1: you're on an opioid and you're you're not able to
30:26
Speaker 1: process things. The front end of a vehicle goes down.
30:30
Speaker 1: And all across Michigan, from the western shores of Lake
30:34
Speaker 1: Michigan to the eastern shores of Lake Huron, the sides
30:38
Speaker 1: of our roads are beveled to create drainage, and that
30:44
Speaker 1: means the nose of that Chevy went down and at
30:49
Speaker 1: a high rate of speed, the rear axles flipped over.
30:54
Speaker 1: You know, just like you know going on a bicycle
30:59
Speaker 1: and going off the road, you know, your ask goes
31:02
Speaker 1: over your handlebars. That's what it is, and you're because
31:05
Speaker 1: of a lack of awareness, You're you're abtunded. You think
31:09
Speaker 1: slow and you act slow. You know. I want to
31:12
Speaker 1: give an example, and doctor William Moroney is joining us
31:16
Speaker 1: from Michigan, and these deaths of this of these three
31:20
Speaker 1: little children occurred in Holland, Michigan. So what he's saying
31:24
Speaker 1: about the beveled roads, how the roads are beveled down
31:26
Speaker 1: on the side, it's absolutely correct. We should may explain
31:30
Speaker 1: why her car catapulted upside down into that into that
31:34
Speaker 1: drainage pump. But to you, doctor Angel Arnold and Wendy Patrick,
31:38
Speaker 1: I want your thought on this. Many times I've argued
31:41
Speaker 1: to juries about opioids. Okay, typically it was heroin. Now
31:46
Speaker 1: the big thing would probably be fentinol and ox codone,
31:50
Speaker 1: that type of opioid. But most of jurars don't know
31:55
Speaker 1: anything and as they shouldn't about opioid addiction. And I
32:00
Speaker 1: would start it with saying something like, I guess you've
32:03
Speaker 1: all seen Wizard of Oz, right, and they almost make
32:07
Speaker 1: it to Emerald City, and then there's a big field
32:10
Speaker 1: of poppies, okay, which can be used for opioid production,
32:15
Speaker 1: and as they start walking across. Everybody gets sleepy and
32:20
Speaker 1: they don't want to wake up, and they lay down
32:22
Speaker 1: on the ground and they stay there until it starts
32:26
Speaker 1: snowing on them to wake them up. And at the
32:29
Speaker 1: other end of that, and then you see on TV
32:32
Speaker 1: opium dens where people are lying around peacefully smoking opioid,
32:40
Speaker 1: ingesting opioids. And then the reality of doctor Angela told
32:44
Speaker 1: us about the Methodone Clinic where everybody is strung out
32:48
Speaker 1: out of their minds. You have people lying in the street.
32:53
Speaker 1: They have no idea what's going on around them because
32:56
Speaker 1: they're high on opioids, and they ignore everything, their children,
33:03
Speaker 1: they don't want to eat, they don't want to pay
33:05
Speaker 1: their bills, they just want the next hit Doctor Angie right,
33:11
Speaker 1: because Nancy, they don't want to feel anything. And Nancy,
33:16
Speaker 1: the fact that she went to someone's house and got
33:20
Speaker 1: an extra pill means that whatever they were giving her
33:23
Speaker 1: at the Methodone Clinic was not She was accustomed to
33:27
Speaker 1: that dosnell and she was able to feel things, so
33:30
Speaker 1: she wanted to go and get another pill so that
33:33
Speaker 1: she couldn't feel. And as the guests have said, she
33:36
Speaker 1: was a tounded Nancy. And you know something there, I
33:39
Speaker 1: think there are a lot of people to blame here.
33:41
Speaker 1: Does her family know that she's going to a methodone clinic?
33:44
Speaker 1: Don't start, Do not start if she starts, cut or Mike,
33:47
Speaker 1: because we're not blaming anybody but mommy. Her family may
33:51
Speaker 1: have known. I'm sure they had a large hand in
33:54
Speaker 1: getting her to a clinic, but she is the one
33:57
Speaker 1: that texted the friend to borrow another dose. As a
34:00
Speaker 1: matter of fact, take a listen to our fran Marissa o'
34:03
Speaker 1: burrell at Fox seventeen Arc at eight. According to this
34:06
Speaker 1: court filing, Leticia Gonzalez was under the influence of methadone
34:11
Speaker 1: at the time of that crash. Now, she was prescribed
34:13
Speaker 1: the drug as part of a treatment program and took
34:16
Speaker 1: her normal dose the morning of that incident, but thirty
34:19
Speaker 1: minutes later, the filing says, she asked to quote unquote
34:23
Speaker 1: borrow someone else's dose. That person gave her that additional dose.
34:28
Speaker 1: Shortly after that fatal crash was reported. The Ottawa County
34:32
Speaker 1: Sheriff's Office arrested the thirty year old Tuesday on three
34:35
Speaker 1: counts of operating while intoxicated causing death. She went before
34:40
Speaker 1: a judge this afternoon and remains in jail on a
34:42
Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty thousand dollar bond. Davemattcrime online dot Com.
34:47
Speaker 1: That is another step, intentional step to actually go to
34:52
Speaker 1: a friend's home. Well, I don't know if a drug
34:54
Speaker 1: buddies actually a friend, but to go to someone's home,
34:57
Speaker 1: to go out of your way to go to their
34:59
Speaker 1: home to get more drugs. That's another thing she did
35:03
Speaker 1: leading up to the horrible murder of her children, you know, Nancy.
35:07
Speaker 1: The thing that struck me was that we know that
35:09
Speaker 1: she went and got her regular dose at the clinic
35:13
Speaker 1: at six thirty in the morning. Within thirty minutes, she's
35:16
Speaker 1: texting this drug buddy wanting more. This is somebody that
35:20
Speaker 1: she had gone to in the past when she was
35:23
Speaker 1: dope sick. Dope sick is after you run out of
35:25
Speaker 1: medication and you start showing symptoms withdrawal. It's flew like
35:30
Speaker 1: symptoms and it can be very uncomfortable. And she had
35:32
Speaker 1: gone to this person before when she had been dope sick,
35:35
Speaker 1: and this person helped her get through it by getting
35:38
Speaker 1: her some more method on helped her. Yeah, I mean
35:41
Speaker 1: to help her with the symptoms, you know. Anyway, there
35:44
Speaker 1: was a deputy trained in drug recognition signs that was
35:48
Speaker 1: on the scene. Now we have the description how the
35:50
Speaker 1: mom was outside the vehicle and the water trying to
35:53
Speaker 1: heroically get her children out of their car seats. Right,
35:56
Speaker 1: But what this deputy saw right away at them that
36:01
Speaker 1: her pupils were notably constricted and her eyelids were droopy,
36:05
Speaker 1: and she displayed no response to direct lighting. They asked
36:09
Speaker 1: her about drug use, and she lied. Her first response
36:13
Speaker 1: was to lie. The second response was, oh, yeah, I
36:15
Speaker 1: do take methodone. I got it at the clinic, but
36:17
Speaker 1: she did not was not forthcoming about I got another
36:20
Speaker 1: jose later, you know, they found out at the hospital.
36:24
Speaker 1: Then they did the labs on her blood and found
36:26
Speaker 1: out the methodone. But my understanding, and I don't know
36:29
Speaker 1: how this changes. Doctor Maroney can fill us in, but
36:32
Speaker 1: they couldn't determine the level of methodone in her system
36:35
Speaker 1: at the time of the rack. About many Well, the
36:40
Speaker 1: first thing that they do after an accident like this
36:43
Speaker 1: is they bring you to the emergency room with the
36:46
Speaker 1: closest hospital and they take a blood sample. Now, the
36:50
Speaker 1: difference between the drug testing and the methodon clinic and
36:54
Speaker 1: after an accident is that drug testing and methodon clinic
36:59
Speaker 1: or any sub since abuse clinic is like ninety nine
37:03
Speaker 1: urine drug testing, and that's not evidence based to determine
37:06
Speaker 1: whether you're impaired or not. You really can't tell based
37:09
Speaker 1: on that. But after an accident, a blood level, there
37:13
Speaker 1: are levels of methodone that are considered analgesic, and above
37:18
Speaker 1: that you would have the euphoria, the obtendation, the sedation,
37:24
Speaker 1: the slow thinking, the slow acting, and sometimes those circles
37:32
Speaker 1: of what level drug that is they overlap and where
37:38
Speaker 1: they have the determination to say, well, this drug level
37:43
Speaker 1: says she's impaired, Well, you know they technically you judge
37:48
Speaker 1: the impairment by the functional problem behind the wheel that
37:51
Speaker 1: caused the death of the children. You can never use
37:55
Speaker 1: a lab value. You can never say that's the number
37:58
Speaker 1: she's impaired. Well, other thing, speaking of being impaired, let's
38:02
Speaker 1: just get down to it to you, Wendy Patrick. Dave
38:06
Speaker 1: Mack from Crime Online made a point to tell us
38:08
Speaker 1: that she quote his word, not mine, heroically tried to
38:12
Speaker 1: save her children after she lands them in an icy pond. Really,
38:16
Speaker 1: she couldn't even respond to light or answer questions correctly.
38:20
Speaker 1: How much do you think she was helping to save
38:23
Speaker 1: her children. Really, that might be a bit of projection
38:26
Speaker 1: on anybody's part as a parent. We want to think that, absolutely,
38:30
Speaker 1: we wouldn't think that. And I want to add to it,
38:32
Speaker 1: Doctor Moroney and David Max brought up crashing her curR
38:35
Speaker 1: into the latest circumstantial evidence of impairment. That is going
38:39
Speaker 1: to be one of the biggest arguments because we've already
38:41
Speaker 1: ruled out all of the other things that might have contributed.
38:44
Speaker 1: It was clear sky, there was no sweet, no snow,
38:47
Speaker 1: no rains on the road. So the mere crash itself
38:51
Speaker 1: is going to prove what a lab test cannot do.
38:53
Speaker 1: They better get out there with a reconstructionists pronto, because
38:57
Speaker 1: I can imagine all sorts of line the defense might
39:01
Speaker 1: bring up a deer around across a car summoned to
39:04
Speaker 1: a right made revere to the left. I mean, we
39:06
Speaker 1: don't know, so we better get out there pronto with
39:09
Speaker 1: an accident reconstructionist. But I want to point something out,
39:12
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum. You know, when I had the children, the twins,
39:16
Speaker 1: I would actually practice running if I had to save
39:21
Speaker 1: them under various conditions. Would that much weight under both
39:25
Speaker 1: arms because I had two that would have to be
39:27
Speaker 1: saved at the same time, and figured out how I'd
39:31
Speaker 1: try to save them if we went underwater in the car,
39:33
Speaker 1: all sorts of things. Praise God, none of that ever happened.
39:37
Speaker 1: But even to this day, Cheryl, when I have the
39:40
Speaker 1: twins in the car, I try very much not to
39:42
Speaker 1: drive on the interstate. Why not because I'm impaired, Because
39:46
Speaker 1: I'm worried about the other people that are impaired. Going
39:49
Speaker 1: eighty ninety miles an hour. I mean, you can't be
39:53
Speaker 1: too careful. And now these three boys are dead. Nancy,
39:57
Speaker 1: you cannot be too careful. And here's three reality. There
40:00
Speaker 1: were some witnesses that saw her veer enough the road,
40:03
Speaker 1: So those witnesses were going to be key. So is
40:06
Speaker 1: the black box from that car. That data is going
40:09
Speaker 1: to show us when she accelerated, the speed, when she
40:12
Speaker 1: was breaking, the doors that were opening and closing, and when.
40:15
Speaker 1: So they'll be able to show was she trying to
40:17
Speaker 1: save them. It'll show the exact time of the crash
40:20
Speaker 1: and all of that, and you know, the accident reconstruction.
40:23
Speaker 1: This is going to be key. And then they're going
40:26
Speaker 1: to cross check all of that with these text messages
40:29
Speaker 1: and whatnot that she's sending to people trying to get
40:32
Speaker 1: additional drugs. Yeah, I mean, really, Cheryl, I guess she
40:35
Speaker 1: thought she wasn't high enough to go driving with her
40:39
Speaker 1: children in the car. I earlier misspoke. I said murder.
40:43
Speaker 1: This has not been charged as a murderer. It's right
40:46
Speaker 1: now ending up as a vehicular homicide. I think it
40:50
Speaker 1: should be a murder charge because her intentional acts brought
40:54
Speaker 1: about the desk of three innocent babies, now angels. We
41:01
Speaker 1: wait as just as sun falls. Nancy Grace Crone's story
41:06
Speaker 1: signing off good Bye friend,