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Principles of Overlanding: Rugged Terrain Tires · The Overland Journal Podcast

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to the Overland Journal podcast. I'm your host,
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Matt Scott, and I'm here with Scott Brady, the man
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: who does all of the things and travels all over
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: the world. So we're talking about rugged terrain tires today.
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I really like this idea. Our principles of overlanding
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: is one of the subjects that you and I really
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: enjoy doing. It takes a lot more research. We have
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: to do a lot more planning before we do these.
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: And so I'm glad we're sitting down, especially on this topic.
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's one of the most significant growth opportunities
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: in the space is like really good tires for travel. Yeah.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: I mean, uh, the choice of tire that you have
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: has kind of, you've historically had an all terrain tire
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: and you've had a mud terrain tire. So you've had,
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: you know, zero to hero kind of a or B option.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: And to be honest, most of an overland adventure is
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: on pavement. So that's why it has always been the
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: intelligent choice to do An all-terrain tire.
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: Or your gravel roads, dirt roads.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they're completely appropriate for most things, except for that
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: final mile to get to that campsite in Tajikistan or wherever, Yukon,
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: where it's muddy or something, and then you're like, man,
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: I wish I had that mud tire.
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: For over 100 years, General Tire has delivered tires for
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: your lifestyle, your adventure, your anywhere. From the aggressive all-terrain
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: performance of the Grabber ATX to the ultra-high performance Grabber APT,
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: General Tires balance excellent on-road performance with off-road capabilities designed
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: for all weather conditions. General Tire delivers for whatever you do.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: But now we have these rugged terrain tires, is what
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: RT stands for, and I've been taking a look at them.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: So they've been I've never had one before. No, I
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: guess I had the BFG HD Terrain.
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: On your Grenadier?
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: On the Grenadier.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: Sorry, I said the G word. No, I think these
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: RT tires... Now, they're also called hybrid tires. Yeah. They
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: kind of kicked off with that naming convention, but I'm
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: so glad that they picked a universal describer for it.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: AT, RT, MT.
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really helpful. I would say that the thing
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: that I appreciate most about the RT is it allowed...
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: for the all-terrain and the mud terrain to be more
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: pure to what they were supposed to be.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: Because what we were.
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: Finding in recent years was people didn't like how loud
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: mud terrains were, so they started to make mud terrains
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: more quiet on the road.
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: Which makes them perform not as good in the mud.
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: In the mud. Or you were finding these really aggressive
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: all-terrains that then have reduced tire wear, impacts to miles
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: per gallon. You end up with a lot more noise, vibration,
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: and harshness.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: So.
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: none of the tire companies knew exactly how to meet
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: the needs where they were trying to differentiate themselves. Whereas
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: the RT now, it's like now you can just make
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: really great all-terrains or make really great mud terrains because
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: you've got a third category that you can make great
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: as well.
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: So most of my experience, I did the Toyo RT
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: Pro on my Prospector. That car, which is interesting, it
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: had Toyo mud terrains on it. I think it's like
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: their open country MT or something, which is a fine tire.
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: They don't, you know, like a mud tire, they just
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: don't last very long.
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: So, and they get loud, they.
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: They get loud and they get choppy, but that's every
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: mud tire. They're a high void tire. And when, when
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: Scott and I say void, small void does literally mean
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: small void. That's like a, an all terrain tire, less
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: space between the lugs. Yeah, exactly. A mud terrain tire
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: is a high void tire. And these RT tires are
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: somewhere in the middle. And, You know, oftentimes it's the
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: thing that's in the middle that's the best choice.
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: And I would say that where they tend to focus,
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: they tend to tighten the voids on the center line
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: of the tire, at the crown of the tire, because
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: that's going to give you a quieter road behavior. And
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: then they tend to make, compared to an all-terrain, then
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: they'll add some additional void in the side lugs, which gives,
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: I think, a ton of benefits.
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I think tire testing is so subjective. Unless you're
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: doing something that's repeatable in the same conditions, if you
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: test one tire A in the morning and tire B
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: in the afternoon, you're going to get a different result.
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: Especially on track testing. When we did our big all-terrain
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: test many years ago using Joe Bacall, who tested tires
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: for Toyota, we had to do that. We had to
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: do it at the same time every day. They were
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: all fitted to the same Jeep Wrangler the same driver
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: and we, it was double blinded. So he didn't know
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: what he was testing.
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: Interesting.
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: So that was the, that was why our, our test
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: ended up being so significant was, and it was very
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: expensive and very time consuming, but I'd love to do
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: one on the RTs at some point in time.
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: I think it's interesting. I have so far been pretty
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: happy with these tires, like coming from the mud terrain
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: for how I use that truck. The RT really just
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: seems like suited to, for the prospector, you're not really
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: going mudden. I just took that thing across the scale.
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: It's like 9,500 pounds or something.
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: Or 9,250 pounds. That's really heavy. That's how much the
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: prospector weighs?
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: Surprisingly, because I have a 1,600-pound payload on the door,
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: and with me in it and fuel, I think it
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: was 9,200 pounds. Now, we don't know if that scale
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: is calibrated. I was at the local dump.
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but I think it's pretty close. The one right
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: here by the shop, I use that for weighing everything.
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: I think it's pretty close.
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: So it was interesting just to, I mean, I've had
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: three of those trucks now with the Toyo MT, and
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: to go to the RT, it's quieter. What's interesting about
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: this tire is I was able to go from a 12.
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: I was able to go to a 1250 section width tire,
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: which is plenty of width. Yeah, for sure. I actually
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: gained a couple hundred pounds of load capacity per tire
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: despite going wider because it's air volume that holds weight.
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: So it was an inch wider, the new ones?
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: An inch narrower. So they came with 1350s. I remember that.
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: Which is fine, but I think that, I'm not saying
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: this is a tall, skinny 40, but you know, it is,
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: if you look at the aspect ratio, it for sure is.
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: And I, I think it looks great on the truck.
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: I think it looks really good. You know, a lot
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: of these vehicles, especially modern vehicles, I find, I find
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: that they just look really good with the RTs.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: And, yeah, we were talking about that the other day
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: and I totally agree with you. You said like new cars.
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: Are a little more angular, a little bit more angular,
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: a little bit more aggressive. Like they don't necessarily have
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: like the happy face. I think the Grenadier has a
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: little bit of a happy face. It's a little pleasant.
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: Um, Did you just say the Grenadier was pleasant?
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: I just said the G word. Listen, I love the Grenadier,
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: but I also want them to fix a few things.
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: You know, think of like a Tacoma, right, or the
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: new 4Runner. They are very aggressive vehicles. Yeah, for sure.
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: Toyota has really done that. They've really gotten away from
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: the softer, more rounded, like you think an 80 series,
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: lots of rounded curves and things like that. It's very
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: angular now. Yeah.
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: So I think that they, I think that they look
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: very appropriate. You know, I'm only about 2,500 miles into
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: testing these tires, but I think it is important, but
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: the first impressions are good.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: And you had quite a few miles on those BFG
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: HDs too. Yeah.
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: Probably like 7,500 on those. Um, I, I, it's funny.
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: I was actually, some of it may just be, again,
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: this is why I say with the caveat that this
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: is also subjective, but the HD terrains were very squirmy.
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: They had very large lugs. Aesthetically, I loved them for
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: the Grenadier because they kind of looked like that modern
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: Michelin XEL that we covet. Yeah, sure. But you could
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: kind of feel that car move just a little bit.
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: And I've heard other people say that about the HD terrains,
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: but again, it's so subjective. Like Michelin, which is BFG,
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: they make good tires. It's not like it's a... a
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: super issue.
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: I think with the point that you're making is that
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: it's a little bit more aggressive RT. It is, it's
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: also got fairly large side lugs and the tires that
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: you had on the Grenadier were very tall, narrow. Like
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: it was an 80.
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: I don't think I had enough section with 255, 80
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: or 17.
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: Right. So the aspect ratio was 80%, which is very tall. Yeah.
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: I mean, if you think about it, the, The Defender
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: 90 I just bought, I run a 255 section width
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: on that. And the Grenadier weighs 2,500 pounds more than
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: that thing. Sure. That is not a light vehicle. It
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: is very stout in its construction and build quality.
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: I do find that the all-terrains just work really well
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: on the Quartermaster. And the Quartermaster is also a longer
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: wheelbase and all that other stuff. But I do find
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: that I don't really tend to care for mud terrains
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: for most applications. And that's why... we can talk about
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: that right now. Like why go with an RT over
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: a mud terrain? The thing with a mud terrain is
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: you're going to end up with a tire that has
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: a shorter service life, which when you're doing very long trips,
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: it's nice to not have to change out tires. Like
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: for example, for the milestones expedition, we weren't able to
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: get the mud tires into Europe. So we ended up
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: running the same all terrains that left bozeman montana drove
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: across north america drove across europe and then drove the
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: entire length of africa west africa all on the same
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: set of tires and you can get away with that
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: with an altering so a mud tire will have a
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: shorter service life you're going to end up with a
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: lot more noise vibration and harshness. There are not mud
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: terrain tires that qualify as a three-peak mountain snowflake rating.
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: So you're going to have very poor performance comparatively in ice, snow,
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: and on wet road conditions. So there can even be
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: a reduction in payload that's available on it. So A
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: mud tire should be used if you're in the mud
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: quite a bit.
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And we were talking about this the other day too.
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: There's this like 200 mile blinder that everybody have on.
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: That's something I learned from Dave Harriton. It's like what
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: your reality is kind of this 200 mile zone. So
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: for us, And all-terrain is just probably the best tire
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: for the Southwest. We don't really have mud. I mean,
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: in Prescott, we can get mud, but it's really bad
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: etiquette to drive on trails.
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we just don't. Yeah, we don't do it.
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: Because it dries out, and then it becomes like concrete,
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: and everyone hates you. Yeah, don't tear up the trails.
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: And all-terrain is a really great choice for us. But
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: let's say that you're in the Southeast. You're in Georgia,
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: or you're in Vermont, and you're riding those Class 4.
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: I think it's Class 4 roads? Yep, that's right. you're
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: not only kind of rock crawling, but you're rock crawling
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: with mud and water on top of it. It's like
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: something that we have within our 200 mile blinder. Like
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: we cannot comprehend. Right. The RT, let's say you're a
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: full-time traveler or you are, you know, doing a big
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: international trip. Yeah. Like we might start in the Southwest
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: and we may go through Vermont. We may go through
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: Guatemala and we're, going to do a recreational four-wheel drive
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: thing with a local club there or something. The RT
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: is going to get you by, and that's what I
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: like about it, where the all-terrains, particularly in mud, seem
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: to run out of talent quite quickly. Yeah, you're right.
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: They just can't, because of the low void ratio, you
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: just can't evacuate the mud as effectively. In most all-terrains,
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: that's definitely been my experience, especially when you get into
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: clay and stuff. It just won't evacuate that well. Yeah.
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: I mean, I just think they're a good general tire. Yeah.
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: You know, um, I mean, that's why we're talking about
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: the RT today because I mean, you've made the point
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: and I agree with you, Matt is these just might
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: be the perfect tire for overland travelers because, and to
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: be fair too, we also like it when stuff looks
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: cool and RT looks pretty good. They, I mean, they
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: can really look a little bit aggressive. Yep. I think
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: that they look the adventurous part too, which is like,
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: there's nothing wrong with that.
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's a lot out there. I mean, I'm
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: dipping my toe into this through the Toyo world, and
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: they have three different RTs, so they kind of have
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: a soft, medium, hard, so to speak.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: They've done a good job of that, and even Nitto
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: has done that. They've got two that I would say
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: qualify as an RT.
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: And some of the manufacturers haven't quite caught up with
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: their naming convention yet. There's a Nitto that is very
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: much an RT that's called an AT. Right. Um, but
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: maybe it's just an older model. Yeah.
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: But it's interesting to see the tire companies kind of
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: grab ahold of this because they're not bad to drive.
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: They have more noise than an all terrain tire. Like
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: noise I think is, is an important thing. I'll tell
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: you like with the, like in the earth roamer when
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: I had those continentals on there.
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah. Oh my God.
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: Like my ears would hurt at the end of the day.
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: And I have been in, Maybe in the Prospector, which
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: is sealed like.
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: A pneumatic bubble. Yeah, Ram does a good job.
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: In vehicles on the Defender 90, I have KM3 BF
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: Goodrich mud terrains.
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: KM2s.
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: And they're chopped, right? So they've been either not rotated
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: or over-inflated or whatever. Sometimes mud tires just end up
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: doing that.
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: Especially after a little bit of miles on them. Yeah.
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: And what I mean by kind of like that choppy
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: thing is you think, again, with a high-void tire... there
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: is a point where the lug of the tire is like,
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: there's no lug on the ground. So it creates some
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: interesting wear patterns. Like for sure. Any moto riders will
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: kind of know what I mean. If they run a
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: TKC 80 on an adventure bike.
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: Or a, you know, yeah, they can scallop really bad.
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: They can get really angled because of how it impacts
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: the asphalt. So, yeah, I mean, it's, uh, I mean,
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: the mud tires also have an impact to your miles
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: per gallon. So the RT is less of an impact
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: to your fuel economy, which range is a real important
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: thing for us. So if you can, let's say, a
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: mud terrain, in my experience, usually costs you around a
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: mile to a mile and a half per gallon. Let's
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: call it somewhere around 10% to 15% impact to your
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: fuel economy. And it depends on the vehicle. Sometimes it
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: can even be more than that. Yeah.
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: And also just like the longevity of the tire, like
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: you're saying, like my prospector, for example, bought it used.
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: It's on its second set of tires. I know, for example,
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: by the sticker, it was delivered with Cooper ST Maxes
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: and 40s. And it has Toyos on. For a while,
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: AEV couldn't get them during the pandemic, supply chain stuff.
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: So that truck has 25,000 miles on it. It's on
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: its third set of tires. And I just put its
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: third set of tires on there, but they have a
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: 45,000 mile tread life warranty.
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: So it's like, I've already blown through two sets of
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: mud terrains and they really don't also like, I don't
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: think much trains like heat again, being high void and
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: they don't like a lot of pavement. Like a mud
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: terrain is something that if you are genuinely over 50%
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: of the time you are off road, A mud terrain
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: is a great choice for you. But, you know, I mean,
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: if you look at my Instagram feed, I'm, I'm like,
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: I'm in that crowd. I'm like 50% off road.
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: And I think that's most people are probably relating right now. Sure.
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: But the reality is, you know, let's not even talk
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: about like global adventure. Let's just talk about, you know,
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: most people that are overlanding in North America and You know,
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: you live in Los Angeles and you want to go
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: to Moab. You've got a, what, a 1,500-mile drive? Yeah,
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: just over 1,000 miles. 1,000 miles or whatever, yeah, on pavement.
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: And that's a big part of it. Like, that was
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: the whole thing with overlanding, you know, when it really
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: started to become a thing in North America was that
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: they were meant to be more practical vehicles, right?
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: So I think it'd be good for us to talk
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: through the attributes of an RT that we need to
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: be considering when we buy one. So, and this doesn't
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: apply to every.
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: RT, which is why it's important to talk about.
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: So for example, three peak mountain snowflake rating, if you
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: live at altitude in Colorado or in Montana, or even
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: here in Prescott, you may want to have a tire
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: that has that rating because Because it can mean that
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: you can drive to your home without having to put
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: chains on.
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: Well, and in some areas, it means that you don't
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: have to put chains on because you have a three-peak
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: mountain snowflake tire. Like the snowflake rating in the Pacific Northwest.
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: I love snowflakes. What is the Pacific Northwest snowflake rating?
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: I think if you're in some of the passes in
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: Oregon and Washington, if you don't have... chains we're talking
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: about different snowflakes then oh okay yeah there's a lot
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: of snowflake rated in uh portland they like that there.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: So yeah i don't know that's just kind of funny
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: to think about but anyways the uh the snowflake rating
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: can be a big deal if you don't want to
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: have to put chains on if you live at at
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: altitude And they also do perform better. They work better.
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: It's a huge thing that I look for in a
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: tire to be honest. Again, where we're talking about you
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: never know what kind of conditions you're going to come
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: along on, whatever your adventure may be. I think the
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: broader performance envelope that you can have in a tire,
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: generally the better. So if I see an RT tire,
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: like the one on the Handcook XT, DynaPro XT, is
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: a rugged terrain tire that has a snowflake rating. Yep.
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: And that's pretty, and I've used those tires. I've driven
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: actually across the country. I drove from Prescott to Florida
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: and back. Oh, those are the ones that were on
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: Tavia's on Tavia's Jeep. Yeah. And they were super quiet. Um,
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: they don't have a big selection on sizes. I'd love
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: to see some more sizes come out, but, um, they
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: did great off road. They did actually great in sand overall.
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: I was super impressed with those and they have the
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: mountain snowflake rating. The, uh, The other thing that we
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: want to be looking at is does it have three-ply
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: sidewalls or not? Now, this can be a bit of
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: a misnomer. There are some extremely durable two-ply sidewall tires.
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they, like, fold them over or something, right?
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: So you've got to know what's the thickness of the sidewall,
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: what's the construction of the sidewall. But, for example, a
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: Duratrac is going to have three-ply sidewall plus Kevlar. So
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: it really depends on the tire. So you've got to
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: do your research on the sidewall rating. but then there's
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: also going to be like an E rated tire that
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: could be super thick and not even be three ply sidewall,
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: but it's just as strong. So you got to do
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: a little bit of research on that. And then we
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: also want to be looking for the siping on the tire.
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: So if you are in an area with a lot
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: of rain, ice, snowy roads, siping is a really important
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: and effective way of improving traction because it allows for the,
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: and they're across the face of the lug, uh, it
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: allows for that lug to splay open just slightly. It
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: provides an additional biting edge, many biting edges sometimes. Like
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: if you look at a Nokian or something like that,
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: a true woodpecker, tire, they have incredible siping all over it.
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: And that's how they're able to get as much grip
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: as they do, which also applies in wet road conditions
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: as well. So siping can be very effective, but what's
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: the downside to siping? You can have increased chunking and
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: increased tread wear. So We want to be making sure
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: that these are really robust lugs where the siping isn't
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: too deep so you don't get a lot of that
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: chipping and chunking out of it. And then the last
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: thing on this, and this is going to be my
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: rant for this podcast, because I think that the worst
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: thing that ever happened to performance tires was a tread
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: wear warranty. I would love, and this is the responsibility
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: of the consumer. This is not anything that Toyo's done
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: wrong or Nitto or anybody else. What they recognize is
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: that consumers are making purchases based upon treadwear. And I've
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: talked to the engineers at many of these tire companies,
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: and nobody gets 60,000 miles out of an all-terrain unless
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: it's on a Suzuki Samurai. Like if it's on a
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: Grenadier or a heavier SUV or a Land Cruiser or whatever,
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: you're going to get 35,000, maybe 40,000 miles out of it.
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: But because of that, they're making the rubbers harder. They're
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: changing the compact. The rubber is what really affects this. Yeah,
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: they're changing... the compounds to try to meet these ridiculous
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: 60,000 mile tread wear warranties. And it is directly affecting
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: our ability to purchase high performance tires. So for everyone
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: that's listening, if you ever get a chance to go
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: to an Overland Expo or the big thing or anything
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: else where there's tire manufacturers, remind them that you understand
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: that your tires aren't going to last more than about
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: 30,000 miles. Don't build us tires that are supposed to
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: last 60,000 miles. We lose performance out of that.
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: I actually, I guess it's an all-terrain tire, but those,
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: I had a set of those Falcon.
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Wild Peaks.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: Wild Peak AT. Yeah.
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: Two or three.
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, three. It was their all-terrain tire, and now they
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: have the four, and it was the three. I'm sorry.
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: I don't know every tire known to man. I put
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: a lot of dirt miles on that Jeep. Went down
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: Baja twice, a lot of highway miles. I think I
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: sold it at 30,000 miles. And that Jeep got used,
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: and I still see it running around. It's got to
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: have 75,000 miles on these frigging Falcon tires. Now, they
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: actually performed pretty good. They were decent on the road.
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think it can be done. Maybe it's
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: a little kind of contrary. It's good to have a counterpart.
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: But I don't know.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: I guess the strongest point is.
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: You're not getting that in an RT, and you're not
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: getting that in a mud terrain.
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: You have had a lot of high-performance cars, Matt. Have
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: you ever seen a tire... tread wear warranty on a
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: high performance car tire.
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: I haven't, you know, I really wish that came with
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: that for my race car.
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: Instead of like three session, three or four heat cycles
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: and you already start feeling the, actually one heat cycle
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: and you feel the performance drop off.
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: But, but isn't that a good point? So you're, we're
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: spending all of this money. We have these really advanced
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: vehicles and, We want the tire to perform optimally, and
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: tread wear of 60,000, 70,000 miles is not an attribute
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: we should be asking for or encouraging the manufacturers to
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: build tires for for overlanding.
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: 50,000, sure, but like 60,000, 70,000?
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: Tires have just gotten so freaking expensive. I'm looking at 33s.
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: They're 16-inch wheels. This is not a complex tire. 255, 85, R16,
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: an LT tire. They're $ 300 a pop, yeah. Oh, no.
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: They're like more. I mean, yeah, $ 300 to $ 450 a tire.
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: That's a lot of money. And then you've got to
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: mount them, and there's all the whatever. For five tires.
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: Disposal.
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: For five tires, I'm looking at $ 2, 500. You know, if
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: you're daily driving these things, I do think that tread
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: wear is actually important to maybe kind of counter. I
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: think that's one of the arguments. I would like to
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: have options that don't focus on tread wear. man, it,
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: they've become so frigging expensive, you know? Um, but that's
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: where I think it's really important to do your research.
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: And again, where I like these RTs because like, let's
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: be honest, mud tires look really sexy.
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: They look good.
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: Like that's why people buy them off road.
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: They do have a higher performance, you know, they're a
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: higher void tire, but again, these it's that, that sacred
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: middle ground is now this RT and whether that is
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: a reflection of people keeping vehicles for longer, things getting
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: more expensive. So there's more demand for, again, that, that
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: tread wear. But I do think it's nice that there's
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: a lot, like we're looking at, there's a lot of options.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: We've got a.
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: List that we kind of came up with, you know,
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: there's the Goodyear Wrangler Duratrac. We put that one at
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: the top, not because it's the best or anything, just,
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's the OG, it's the OG. I mean,
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: do you remember the, the Wrangler Rubicon when it first
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: came out? Like that was the tire it came with. The, the,
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: off-road tire package for a lot of the Land Rovers overseas.
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: We never got in the U.S. That was the DuraTrac.
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: And they made them in a 19, which is a
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: really rare size.
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: For Land Rover. Super rare. We've got the HD Terrain.
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: There's the Mickey Thompson Baja Boss AT. That one's a
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: little weird because that is.
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: It's an aggressive... That's one of the ones that's kind
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: of mislabeled.
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: It's kind of mislabeled like it was maybe just before
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: the RT thing really started to become.
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: So there's also a Nitto. So there's a Nitto recon grappler, uh,
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: which is a high void AT. Yeah. And I've had
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: those on Tavia's Jeep and they're great. Like I really
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: like those tires. Uh, they look aggressive from the side,
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: pretty aggressive sidewall. They're great for a Wrangler, but then
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: they also make the Ridge grappler, which is now their RT.
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: So they, like a more aggressive thing.
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: That's interesting with Nitto is like in that Ridge grappler,
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: they actually do two different sidewall designs. Like they have like, yeah,
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: like a super aggressive one. I don't know how I feel.
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: I mean, I get that there is like a performance
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: benefit when you're in a rut or something, or you're
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: in a ride or whatever, but yeah, Toyo has the
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: Toyo open country RT, the open country RT trail and
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: the open country RT pro. So I'm using the pros.
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: That's the most aggressive. I think if I was to
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: try another one, this RT trail, A little less void
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: of attire. That one looks kind of interesting.
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: I do like that one.
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: The RT has been around forever. I don't want to
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: say Toyo is maybe the kind of, you know, they
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: really were the first ones to run with the designation
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: of RT. I think in spirit, Goodyear is kind of
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: the daddy of it all. Yeah, they were certainly the first.
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: You know, I think that the RT terminology really stuck
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: from Toyo. There's also the Wild Peak RTO1. That is
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: a tire I have no experience with.
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I've not used it.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: But I will say that if I'm not getting a
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: set of tires for testing, I buy Falcons. They're actually
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: really good tires. Actually, there's not a lot of bad tires.
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: There's kind of like Tier 1, Tier 2, Tier 3, right?
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: All of these Tier 1 tire companies, which are the
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: ones that have brand names that you recognize, I don't
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: know if there's necessarily bad tires there. in that category
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: right now. Yeah.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: You're really looking for those attributes. Like it's hard to
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: find if you want to find a three ply sidewall
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: plus three peaks mountain snowflake rating, you're getting the dirt
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: track for example. Yeah. And there are some other ones that,
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: that qualify for that. Like for example, the Nitto Ridge
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: Grappler is not three peak mountain snowflake. Same with the
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: Toyo open country, the Falcon wild peak, the BF Goodrich
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: HD HD, the Cooper discoverer. So for example, there's some
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: that are though. So like you can get a Mickey Thompson,
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: this Baja boss that you mentioned, but it's really an
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: aggressive AT, but it's, it's available in three peak mountain
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: snowflake in the narrower sizes. So there's not a whole
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: lot of options where it totally overlaps with those attributes,
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: but that's kind of cool.
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: But it is, it is the siping that allows you
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: additional siping that allows you to have three peak.
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: Rating.
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: So the more aggressive that you get with the tire,
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: the more void you have, the less likely it's going
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: to be able to perform to that standard. Yeah, there's
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: also the Yokohama Geolander XAT, which I think is an
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: interesting way of saying RT. It's a little bit more
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: than an AT. They just didn't maybe jump on the
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: RT naming bandwagon yet. Firestone makes some stuff. Firestone's a
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: brand that I never really consider, but I've raced with
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: those tires before, like their Indy 500 and a formula series,
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: like a no down force. Okay. A DOT tire series,
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: the Lucas formula series. And it's actually, I mean, they
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: work really well. Firestone has been around for.
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: A while, a long time. And Firestone and Henry Ford
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: used to overland together.
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah. They did. It's kind of cool. People don't know that.
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: And then there's the Maxis Razor AT. I think that
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: kind of, again, you know, Maxis, I've run them on
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: dirt bikes. I've run them on motorcycles. Maxxis, I think,
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: has some really interesting tire sizes. I think they do
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: like a 35, 9, 50, 15. They have some fascinating
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: tire sizes.
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: Kenda has one that's an RT that's a 35, 10, 50, 17,
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: which is a really nice size. It's what I ran
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: on that GMC.
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: Oh, is that the tire size that that was? Yeah.
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: So really tall and narrow. So I kind of love
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: that one.
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: While we're talking about width of tires, to go a
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: little bit narrower I think has some benefits. I know
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: you literally wrote a white paper on this a long
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: time ago. Many years ago. but I find that, that
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: a lot of the fuel economy loss and also like steering,
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: you know, the one of the things I noticed when
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: I went to the 1250 from a 1350 on the
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: prospector is despite that car having hydro assist steering, there's
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: just less footprint that it has to move all the time.
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: So the vehicle feels a little bit lighter. You know,
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: I noticed that actually in the Grenadier going to the 255,
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: that car is notoriously heavy, horrible steering. And I think
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: it actually got a little lighter, you know, a little
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: bit better return to center because there's less, there's, there's.
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: That's why I run 7.5s on scoot because it's manual steering.
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: It's also the coolest tire.
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: It is a cool tire.
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: Bring back XCO.
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: But when we're thinking about the width of a tire,
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: this could be helpful to the listener. So your vehicle
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: came with a specific tire width. And so you have
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: to think about the engineering that was done around the
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: wheel well, this steering sweep, all of those things were
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: taken into consideration around the width of the tire. So
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: if your car came with a 265, 70 or 17,
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: you may want to consider going with a 255 80
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: or 17. So you can get a taller tire, but
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: the width of the tire is essentially the same. It's
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: within 10 millimeters. So it's going to, when it articulates
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: up into the wheel well, or you get full suspension travel,
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: it's going to still tuck into that open space that
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: was designed by the OEM. So one of the big
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: mistakes I think people make is they're like, I need
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: to have a wider tire. Well, 80% of the flotation
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: that we gain is, when airing down occurs from the
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: tread lengthening, not widening. So it's a go with a tall,
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: narrow tire. And there are limits to that. So what
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: are the limits? You know, we know that the coefficient
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: of coefficient of friction is vertical load force and your
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: tire width. So as the vertical load force goes up,
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: your coefficient of friction remains the same as if you
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: just went wider. But what happens is you hit the
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: limits of mechanical integrity of the rubber. So, If you
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: were to put a 7.5 wide tire on a Porsche 911,
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: you're going to have.
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: A lot of fun.
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: You're just going to burn the rubber off of the tire.
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: So there's mechanical limits. But when you're driving a Tacoma,
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: you don't have a high horsepower car. So you're better
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: off going a little bit narrower because you have less
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: frontal resistance of the airflow there. You have less rolling
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: resistance for better fuel economy. Again, it tucks up into
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: the wheel well properly. It's a lighter weight tire, so
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: you have less rotating and reciprocating mass. So all of
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: those things improve when you go with a slightly narrower,
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: slightly taller tire. So think in those terms.
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: Basically, look at the Brodozer that you see going down
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: the road that has those massively stanced, incredibly wide wheels
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: with no sidewall, but they're mud trains and do the opposite.
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, don't do that. Don't do that.
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, don't do that.
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: Lots of benefits of not doing that, even in your
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: personal life. I don't know.
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: I think that whether you're a traveler or you're kind
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: of getting out on the weekends and that's amazing, I
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: think that the RT stuff, it's this nice, sweet spot.
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: I'm so glad it exists. Yeah. And for overlanders, I mean,
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: if we come back to now, just talking about RT
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: in the context of overlanding, You're going to end up
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: with more tread life than you would from a mud terrain.
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: So these trips can be really long. So you want
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: to make sure that you're optimizing for tread life. And
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: then you also want to make sure that you're optimizing
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: for noise vibration and harshness. Like Matt was saying, a
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: good example is I've got to drive from Southern California
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: to Moab and back. I'm going to drive over 1,000
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: miles on the road to get there and back. So
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: having it being a little quieter, that's a good thing.
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: I think they're a win-win. I'm really glad to see
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: this category expand. It's something that I think, I mean,
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: I would love somehow to find more RT tires that
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: have the three-peak Snowflake rating. Yeah, they just really are limited.
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: By design, right? That's what an all-terrain tire is for.
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I've never even heard of this brand before,
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: but Kanadi, the Kanadi Overland RTX is three-peak. mountain snowflake
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: and it's actually like you can see it here matt
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: like it's it's actually kind of a cool look and
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: tread design there's a lot.
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: Of these tires that are coming out of you know
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: and i don't say this in a bad way and
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: maybe this is another podcast but there's a lot of
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: these tires that are coming out of china and they
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: can be branded for the united states china is one
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: of if not the largest automotive market in the world
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: now they have insane manufacturing capabilities maybe it's worth uh
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: if you're on a budget maybe it's worth checking out
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: i don't have any personal experience with.
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: Them Yeah, that might be... I've never even heard of
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: that brand before, but I looked at the tread, and
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: I thought that was really interesting. It even has stone
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: retention ribs between the big lugs, so it helps eject stones.
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: I don't really get these stone ejectors.
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: They work.
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: Voodoo magic.
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: They work. If you look at between the lugs, it's
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: this rubber ridge or appendage that goes between the lugs,
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: and when the rock gets pressed in, it actually... give
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: some like spring force. It actually helps to force. It
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: doesn't allow it to push all the way down into
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: the void. So it helps once you get the tire spinning,
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: it helps it eject out of there. And then I
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: also like to look for lugs that are not so
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: straight up and down where they have a little bit
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: of a taper to them, a chamfer to them, because
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: that also helps eject stones and it also helps to
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: eject mud. And some of them you'll even see are scalloped.
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: So it's– remember like when you'd see in the old
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: movies of– in the swords in the middle ages and
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: they had the blood groove. So you could pull the
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: sword out of the body. It's the same thing. They
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: have these scallops or grooves in the lugs that help
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: to reduce stiction of the mud and so that it
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: can evacuate. Same thing.
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: Mud tires. Yeah. Again, it's that 200-mile blinder thing. I
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: just never– I never really consider them. I think the
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: last set of mud tires I bought was for my
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: Discovery 1 in high school. And they were KM, not KM2,
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: but KM mud terrains.
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: I like that. Yeah.
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: They kind of have that almost like.
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: What did you have on your Wrangler? I remember the
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: thing I was most impressed about with your Wrangler is
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: that you had driven it from Chicago to Prescott when
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: you came to work here. I was like, that thing
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: made it here?
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: Well, I do remember outside of Denver having to replace
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: two U-joints in a parking lot, and then my front
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: diff blew up in Dillon. I have a horrible track
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: record of vehicles in Dillon. I've blown an engine on
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: an Earthroamer in Dillon. I've blown separately a turbo on
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: an Earthroamer in Dillon. I've blown a differential in Dillon,
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: and I've only driven through there four times.
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: Oh, let's avoid Dillon. Where's Dillon at?
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: In Texas? No, like Silverthorne, Frisco.
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: Okay, got it. Breckenridge.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: Got it. It's like at the end of the Eisenhower Tunnel.
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: Got it. Or the start of the Eisenhower Tunnel.
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that road's hard on cars.
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: That's a big grade. That is one big grade. Like,
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: I'm not scared of the death road in Columbia. I'm
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: scared of I-73 Central Colorado.
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: All right, so now, if you were to pick, because
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: you're looking for some tires for your Defender... which one
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: are you seeing that kind of stands out for you
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: right now that would be a pick for you?
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: Well, there's actually, I have a classic vehicles, I think
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: need a certain tire, right? I think that a lot
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: of these, these RT tires, modern ATs, MT tires, they're
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: really designed aesthetically to look good on a modern vehicle.
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: So that's something that's firstly weighing on my mind is,
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: I don't want to have something that doesn't look the part. Right, sure.
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: Not that aesthetics are everything.
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: So maybe like the BFGoodrich HD or the Toyo M55?
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: Well, this is the thing. In the 25585, which is
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: basically the size I have to run because there's no
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: reason for me to run a 285.
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: No.
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: You know, there's basically two for a 33-inch tire on
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: a 16-inch rim. You have 25585 or you have 28575-16s.
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: So if I go to a 285, 75, 16, I
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: have the world as my oyster.
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: But with these 255s, I don't really have many options.
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: I only have like one or two all-terrain tires.
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't even know that there's any. And then
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: the rest of.
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: Them are mud terrain. So there's the Toyo MT, which
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: I do have a lot of experience with on the Prospector.
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: I think that's a good one.
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: But it looks a little more modern.
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: A little more modern. I mean, that one's not so bad.
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: There's the BFG. which looks very modern with its sidewall.
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: I don't know if I just want a mud terrain.
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: So I'm kind of looking at, you know, this is
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: an RT podcast, but I'm looking at the Toyo M
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: 55 because it's kind of, it's very RT ish though.
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: It's a little bit more aggressive of a, of an
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: all terrain tire. It's a commercial tire. Sure.
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: So I think it's not, you know, it's designed to
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: have a long service life, never fail and noise and
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: a few other things are maybe, maybe secondary. They're incredible.
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: durable i think i'm going to probably end up buying
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: those it's perfect um but there's no you know maybe
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: this is just uh we're seeing this category develop but
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: there's nothing really available in an rt for me but
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: I did just put those R2 Pros from Toyo on
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: the prospector as we were talking about. It's expensive tire
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: bill month this year, man. I remember after you put
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: them on, you're like, the truck drives totally different. So
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: much better. I mean, honestly, I have had this issue
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: with all three of my prospectors where they always pull
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: to the right. And this is something that I've noticed
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: with like the BFG KM2 also. I had those on
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: my Troopy in Australia and that thing would just always
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: pull to the right. And no matter how many times
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: I could, I could not get it aligned to do
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: anything different. And the same thing with my Prospector, but
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: now this Prospector just goes down the road better.
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: Nice.
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: I think that's the other thing with mud terrain tires
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: is they all have some kind of, I'm not going
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: to say pull to them, but a lot they're, how
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: would you say that?
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: Like they, it's hard for them to run true.
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And then like lead, like they all have some
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: kind of, you know, they're trying to do the harmonics
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: and they, they can't, they don't want them to be choppy.
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: So they don't have just like a, like a very
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: choppy tires, like the Michelin X forces that are on
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: that earth roamer. They literally, it's like they have almost,
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: they call it see through. You can literally like see
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: through and it looks like a Lego.
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: If you think of it as such, like you can
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: kind of see through, the void completely.
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: So a lot of them, for whatever reason, like they
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: just tend to kind of pull right. But man, this
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: thing drives so much better.
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: Like I think it drove really good when I drove
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: it with the mud tires and those things were chopped up. Yeah.
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: That truck is, it's act legitimately. I mean, it's way,
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: it's way too, it's way too big for what I
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: like to do, but man, a prospector like for everyday
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: living dump truck. No, it's like, it's kind of a,
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: it's a joyful. And the fact that I could go tow, uh, my,
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: you know, that was like seven, 8,000 pounds of sailboat
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: with it. It literally could care less, like genuinely could
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: care less. I really, I.
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: Really liked the Rams. You know, it's interesting. The thing
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: that got me started on the Ram 2,500 was I
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: had this built up gladiator and I was at the
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: dealer and I parked it next to another, uh, Ram,
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: not another Ram, but I parked it next to a Ram.
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: And then I noticed they were both backed up to
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: the curb. And I realized like within six to eight inches,
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: they are the same size, but I got like eight
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: squillion pound feet of torque and they're still coil sprung.
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: They're very similar chassis.
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: Well, Jeeps just feel so much smaller because the body
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: is narrower than the track width by a lot.
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: So you just, you're basically within inches, but you have a,
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: like it is cavernous on the inside is so comfortable. Yeah.
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: That truck is insanely comfortable. You got to drive it.
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: Cause I regeared it as well. So it is four 44s.
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: So now it has basically stock equivalent gearing on the forties.
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: AV used to regear them. They, the gears were not
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: made during COVID and now it's an option, but they
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: were saying anybody that could make them, we were like, Nope,
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: we can't make the other stuff. So, but yeah, I
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: basically regeared it. And I did the Toyo RT Pros
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: at the same time. I had Bobby at Red for
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: Dead do both for me. And they balanced out with
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: like less than five ounces of wheel. That's crazy. One
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: of them required zero ounces. So there's no tire.
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: Weights on it. Well, a lot of that is the
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: AEV wheels too. They run very, very true.
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: But also a four. I mean, the sidewall. It's gigantic.
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's 17 inches.
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: So what is that? 40 minus 17.
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Like you have almost a foot of sidewall.
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah. 11 and a half inches of sidewall on
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: this thing. It's massive. And to have something like that
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: is a really good indicator of quality on tires.
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: I agree. And a lot of people don't know about
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: tire segments. Like if you buy those really fancy Michelins
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: for like a G wagon or whatever, that's a 12
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: segment tire. So like they, they specifically make them run
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: as true as possible in the manufacturing process, but that's
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: very expensive. That's why those tires are like $ 350 a pop.
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Look again because I'm telling you, tires got expensive.
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: Expensive.
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: Everything's gotten expensive, it seems like.
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, this was a great topic. If anybody wants
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: to reach out, we'd love to hear what you've had
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: great success with around the RTs. Matt's working on some
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: content that you'll see on Expedition Portal around it. We're
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: going to be working on, hopefully, an RT tire test
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: in the next.
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: Year or so. Because we really feel like this is
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: an important category to address. Yeah, that would actually be
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: a fun one. Get some tires on the racetrack.
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: Exactly. Let's do it.
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: Let's do it.
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: Thanks, Matt.
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: Appreciate you, man. Yeah, for sure. It was a great one.
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and we thank you all for listening, and we'll
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: talk to you next time.