Latest / Pod Therapy / #437: No Contact Family, Disrespectful Husband, Depressed Employee

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#437: No Contact Family, Disrespectful Husband, Depressed Employee · Pod Therapy

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Is being in such proximity danger Perhaps not, but I
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: mean most people like that's the thing is they just even.
• 0:12
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  Speaker 1: So we've got some great questions for today's show, and
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: we're leading off the order with how to come back
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: from no contact?
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: Hi friends.
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: Last time I wrote in and shared an update about
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: getting divorced and how thrilled we are about that. I'm
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: in a relationship with the love of my life now,
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: someone I've known since before I met the ex husband,
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: and over the last three years we've built a really
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: beautiful soft life that I love. I'm back in school
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: to get my Doctorate of Nursing Practice hence the user name,
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: which I imagine we'll hear about in a second, and
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: in maintaining my four point oh while working full time.
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: While I'm happy to provide this update, it has not
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: been all sunshine and rainbows. My mom took my ex's
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: side in the divorce and doesn't believe the eight years
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: I spent begging for the bare minimum was me trying
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: hard enough. Ever since I moved back home and have
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: been thriving, she's been bitter and angry about all of
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: my choices, seemingly everything she never got to do because
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: she chose to be a mom at sex eventeen years old.
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: Being in their house feels like being an unwelcome guest
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: and walking on eggshells, not like coming home. Living with them,
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: even for the few short weeks I did, were extremely uncomfortable.
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: Things came to a head because of the way she
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: handled my sister having a new onset seizure, basically abandoning
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: her and refusing to check in or talk to her
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: for about three days. Because I drove out of state
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: to be there at my sister's request, so I am
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: the one who made sure college made reasonable accommodations and
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: stacked her kitchen with food because state laws has no
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: driving for six months following a seizure. I'm the oldest
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: of four and have been the third person for most
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: of my life. I even took the sister to her
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: college orientation because my parents didn't want to, and.
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: She'd note that used to be a year, didn't it.
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: Driving Yeah, yeah, I guess six months doesn't seem like long.
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: I only remember six months, but I I.
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe there's like a scale, maybe based on what's
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: going on. And she wasn't old enough to reserve a
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: hotel room on her own. I sat through the financial
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: aid and parent breakout sessions, not to mention footing the
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: bill for the weekend. When I moved back into my
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: childhood home, I lost all appetite. When I tried to eat,
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: I couldn't do so without vomiting.
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: After I moved into my own apartment, it stepped.
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: It stopped immediately until I went to my parents' house.
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: I couldn't visit their house without vomiting. Multiple times, I've
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: had to pull my car over before even arriving to
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: their house to throw up. During this time, I was
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: in therapy and working through some of this and a
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: history of anorexia bulimia.
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: As I told my.
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: Therapist stories from my childhood, she indicated that the numerous acees,
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: which are adverse childhood experiences I experienced, could constitute abuse.
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: My initial reaction was to reject this, as I don't
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: feel I had a bad childhood, despite lots of loneliness
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: and feelings of neglect. She asked me an emergency She
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: asked me an emergency room nurse. To reframe it in
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: the context of a pediatric patient. If a pediatric patient
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: came into my care and shared these things with me,
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: rejecting a kindergartener's claim of repeated sexual assault by a teacher,
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: refusing to seek care for an eating disorder, being left
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: alone with younger siblings over the weekend, high degree of
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: control over diet, clothing, bodily autonomy, forgotten to be picked
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: up from after school activities. Would I let that pediatric
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: patient return home with the parents?
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: Oh sure? Would you say it all together.
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: Weird peeing on a golf course? Or would I be
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: contacting authorities for further investigation. The answer, of course is no.
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: I would not give that kid back to the parents.
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  Speaker 2: Prude.
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: This was the tipping point to send her a letter
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: saying you are not a safe person for me. And
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: here's why. Mom defended her actions and the only apology
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: was an I'm sorry you feel that way. Oo's the
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: best solid mom Movemright there. I was staying in contact
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: with my dad, who has been living overseas on military
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: duty for two years until I learned to relaying all
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: details of my life back to mom. Now he's upset
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: I'm not talking to him. I get a variation of
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: the same text message every Sunday. In the last year,
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: following my statement of don't talk to me anymore, my
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: dad has attempted to initiate conversation more times than in
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: the ten years prior combined. That's a lot of background
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: for the real question. Is there any coming back from this?
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: Is there a way to coexist at family functions? So
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: this doesn't affect the relationship with my sisters, brother, and
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: brand new niece. They've had professional family portraits done without me,
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: as if I'm no longer one of them. More importantly,
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: is that something I want? This has been the most
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: peaceful period of my life. I love my work, I'm
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: maintaining excellent grades, I'm with the love of my life,
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: I have a beautiful home, financially stable, etc.
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: Etc.
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: Will bringing them back into my life ruin that Mom
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: hasn't always been like this. I don't even recognize this
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: person as my mom. But the longer I stare at
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: the situation, the more tiny little threads of this personality
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: I see woven into the backdrop of my childhood. For
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: the most part I don't even know is their absence,
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: but it gets in the way with my siblings, half
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: of whom have been completely unaffected by my parents being
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: the way they are. The whole situation feels like a
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: forest fire. I am the forest, and I am the fire,
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: and I am the match and I am the witness
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: to it all. Sorry, this is so long, you wouldn't
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: believe the amount of detail I have already trimmed to
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: reduce airtime. Where do I go from here? Almost, Doctor
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: Nurse Joey.
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: Thank you for trimming that, because that usually falls on me,
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: and most of the time I don't do it doing great.
• 9:35
  Speaker 3: Bud, Oh my goodness, so much no contact. Maybe just
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: talking about that for a minute, because I feel like
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: that's a hot topic.
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: So here's the thing that kind of stuck out to
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: me is I think you can make that decision, but
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: then you have to accept the consequences of that. Yeah,
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: miss Party, Yeah, doctor nurse. Doctor Nurse Joey was upset
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: that they did a family portrait without is it her?
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: I think, yeah, Well, that's that's what's going to happen, right, Yeah,
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: And that's the thing that you have to remember, is like,
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: you know, when you set those boundaries, like, hey, you're
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: not a good person for me, I need to keep
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: my distance from you, then you can't also then be
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: upset when they do things without you, and like if
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: you're if they're doing family events and then you're not
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: invited or you don't know about it. That's painful and
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: it hurts you know when that happens. But then that's
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: part of the territory also to some degree what you
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: asked for. Yeah. Yeah, so you kind of you're going
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: to don't tell me about it. Yeah, you get it
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: in both directions, right, and you kind of have to
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: accept that that's going to be very difficult. Yeah.
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: I think it's interesting that so post divorce mom takes
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: the ex's side.
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: Ex husband said, see this sometimes, do you see that?
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: I mean godly like often really rough.
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: That's really rough.
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: I feel like and I don't know, I mean I
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: could see a situation where a parent says, look, I
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: love you, but I just genuinely disagree with choices that
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: you made, and I'm not going to pretend like I
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: support that. Okay, but you can still support the person
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: and be like, look, I'm still your parent, right, I
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: love you, I want you to be happy. I'm not
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: going to just keep bringing this up all the time
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: or say you didn't do any like it's been three
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: years post divorce, Like get over it, move on.
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: I know what I see is from their perspective, it's
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: like someone who is part of the family, and especially
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: a lot of couples hide, you know, their right, their struggle.
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: Family doesn't know what they're doing.
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: So then it doesn't make sense them. And this isn't
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: giving them an excuse Joey, but.
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: Just saying it's just.
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: Something that happens and it's not fair. Like I totally
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: think parents should be taking their kids side. I've also
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: seen that, like I have family with you know, kids,
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: and as they start dating, they're like, we love you know,
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: your your girlfriend, she's great, but also you're young, and
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: if you decide y'all don't want to be together, we're
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: always on your team. That was like the thing, and
• 12:09
  Speaker 3: I loved that. I was like, yeah, you're on you
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: can you can love that that person there with but
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: still be team child like whatever you pick.
• 12:18
  Speaker 4: I see it happen every now and then when there
• 12:20
  Speaker 4: are kids in the situation, yeah.
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, stay together for the kids.
• 12:23
  Speaker 4: Well, not even that, but like the like the in
• 12:25
  Speaker 4: laws kind of almost adopting the the X right, not adopting.
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: Is strong, but it happens in meet the parents. Remember
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: like Pam, the girl she's with Ben Stiller and her
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: ex boyfriend is Yeah, he's like always hanging out with
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: the parents, and it's like, what, you guys are really
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: close to him, Like, yeah, it comes over all the time.
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: It's us, oh my gosh about them, I know.
• 12:53
  Speaker 4: I think, yeah, that's it, and that's always like to
• 12:55
  Speaker 4: some degree, I think it's always like the grandparents want
• 12:58
  Speaker 4: to take care of the the grandkids, and like taking
• 13:02
  Speaker 4: care of the other parent sometimes falls into that into
• 13:05
  Speaker 4: that category a little bit.
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, but yeah, I think that choosing to go
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: no contact, you kind of asked the question I was
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: going to ask, why would you want to reconnect, you know, potentially,
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: And it sounds like, maybe, uh, yes, siblings, but it
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: sounds like nothing's been disrupted, yeat, other than the family photo.
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: But really your relationship with your siblings or niece or
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: nephews hasn't been disrupted, so that may be okay. I've
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: seen situations, especially the more kids are. There's like four
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: kids in this family. You're the oldest. I think there's
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: more dynamics to kind of like work around there. You know,
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: they don't have the same experience with your mom that
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: you do, so and that's hard because it feels like invalidating.
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: I'm sure to you, Joey, but like that's just their
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: relationship and maybe someday, I've seen down the road sometimes
• 13:59
  Speaker 3: those siblings to see certain things differently, but they may not.
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: They may just be like, yeah, mom's a little bit
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: over the top sometimes or whatever, but that's just mom
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: and they're okay with that. So yeah, I think you
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: have to do it's best for you. I think paying
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: attention to you describing how you react and feel when
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: you go back home, I mean you mentioning. At first,
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: I thought it was just somatic symptoms going back and
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: having the nausea, and then you mentioned the interact of
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: bolimia history, and I'm like, oh, this is a control thing.
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: You're like thrown My perception is you're thrown back into
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: like I need to have some control before I go
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: back into this situation. And maybe that's coming up naturally
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: maybe as a somatic symptom, but it sounds like those
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: might be tied together. And so I think paying attention
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: to how you feel and how you're reacting when you're
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: going home and then when you're not. And it sounds
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: like you have a pretty clear answer there that when
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: you are away from your mom or your parents even
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: and that secks that dad's a wrapped into that too,
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: But when you're away from them, you're having a very happy, relaxed,
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: peaceful life. And it's hard mentally to get over that
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: because society tells us we need to stay around our family,
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: keep them close, and you're going to be lonely and
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: you're gonna have all these negative things happen if you
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: don't stay connected with your family, or you need to
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: forgive your mom, or you need to be the bigger person,
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: especially as the oldest daughter. I'm assuming. Gosh, that's a
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: whole other topic. You don't have to do that. You
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: can live whatever life you want. You will have to
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: live with the consequences. Nick is totally right, and there
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: will be but it sounds like that might be worth
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: it for you in your situation.
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: As an audio guy. Can we cut that piece about
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: Nick is totally right. Put that with the conversation. Yeah, yeah,
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: just see no.
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: Thank you, Jacob's on team Whitney.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: No, actually it's the limits of technology. Well no, right,
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: I'll bet a good guy could do it.
• 15:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah, as someone who's interacted with quite a few audio
• 15:57
  Speaker 4: guys this week, you can't find.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: A bet and if you could, you can't afford that shift.
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: So I like that we got the reference to the
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: Adverse Childhood Experiences Assessment. At the beginning of the show,
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: I talked about nine year library of audio stuff that
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: we have, and actually in our library is an entire
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: deep dive into the ACE. It's in our series on trauma.
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: And so if you'd like to take the ACE, I
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: actually post it in that post on Patreon and take
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: you on a walk through of what this is, how
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: to assess for it. And it's a really interesting thing.
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: And you know, Joey talks about how upon reflection, right,
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: all of a sudden, the light bulb turns.
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: On and they got did by the way, smart.
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: If there was a kid who had your experiences, are
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: you just hand waving that away and being like whatever,
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: go back to your parent left alone as a child,
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: like you know, them ignoring allegations of sexual touching, like
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: what you know, but like this is second, we're.
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: So accepting of things that happened to us.
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: Wasn't that rat?
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: Also?
• 17:09
  Speaker 4: And kind of from the therapist's point of view, it
• 17:11
  Speaker 4: doesn't matter because your response to it is what the
• 17:15
  Speaker 4: therapist is concerned about. So like call it trauma, call it,
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: call it whatever you want to call it, call it life.
• 17:22
  Speaker 4: Like the therapist is going to call it trauma because
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: you're you're reacting to it as though it's trauma.
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: Sure, And I just I appreciate like how many adults
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: that is the experience that they'll have. It's not until
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: they look at an ace and like look at how
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: therapists quantify real trauma in childhood that they go oh shit,
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: Like they go through the listener. I've had patience like
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: that over there, they're going through lists like wait, wait, yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: there's like tick tick tick tick tick and they're like shit,
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: what does this mean? And you're just like, hey, put
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: the pen down, we're gonna talk a lot about this.
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: And then you just see it in their eyes like
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: I didn't know, but I didn't know this is a
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: bad thing, Like am I gonna be okay, but no, Like,
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: this is a really perfect thing. I think for a
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: lot of people, another way that they sometimes land on
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: this awakening about their childhood is talking to their siblings
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: when they're adults, right, Like, and I think we've.
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: All got siblings.
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: You've probably had some version of this where you're just
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: chatting with your sibling. You're like, oh, remember are you
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: know this happened when we were kids? Remember mom and
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: ever like this and they're like, yeah, hey, that probably
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: wasn't normal, like and it's like oh, and then you
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: both kind of like yeah, no, through an adult pair
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: of eyes, you're yeah, that isn't normal.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: That's weird.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: Huh, that's weird that we're like that, right, And it's like, yeah,
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: I'm like this because of this. It's like me too,
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: and it's it's this kind of dot connecting Joey that
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: I think is a really profound experience. And I think
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: it goes back to what you were saying Whitney. It's
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: very validating, right, and it humanizes your experience you're suffering
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: with these people, and I think it fortifies your decision
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: to say, look, they're not going to change, they're not apologetic.
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: They don't want to make this right, and so I
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: think that, you know, Nick's point about the consequence is
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: also fair game here, because I think it's possible to
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: end a no contact dynamic and restore some amount of
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: a relationship. But I do think it's hard to do
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: that because you're going to have to also have some
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: very strong boundaries and that maybe there are things I
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: will start attending, but there are topics that are I
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: refuse to engage in. I do not want to talk
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: about my ex. I do not want to hear any criticism.
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: I am just here for Christmas. We're gonna open up
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: some presents, and that is it. But then those same
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: rules apply to you, Joey, Like you can't sit down
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: and be like, oh, I got you a present. I'm
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: sure mom didn't because mom's a shitty mom.
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: Like you can't. You can't do that, right, Like luck, Yeah,
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: telling other people what the rules are. That was gonna
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: be my next point.
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: Like when Dad's calling you and you're saying like, oh,
• 19:37
  Speaker 4: Dad's trying to get a hold of me now, Like, yeah,
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: that's what dad gets to do, right, Like Dad, Dad
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: isn't saying no contact?
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: Right if other people.
• 19:47
  Speaker 4: Aren't saying no contact, and you're saying no contact and
• 19:50
  Speaker 4: you're upset that they aren't respecting your wishes of no contact.
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: Sure, I don't, and I don't know. That's the thing
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: that I think people forget about sometimes too, is like
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: when you imagine you're you're talking about setting boundaries with
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: people and like, uh, not necessarily going no contact, but
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: changing the way the relationship is.
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: I don't want to talk about this topic, yeah, just
• 20:13
  Speaker 4: I don't want to talk about this topic topic X,
• 20:16
  Speaker 4: A topic X at Thanksgiving.
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: I don't want to talk about that. Just the idea
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: of like, here's how I picture, here's in my mental
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: picture of what our relationship is going to look like.
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: You have to understand they also have a mental picture
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: of what they think the relationship is going to work look.
• 20:32
  Speaker 4: Like, and so you don't get automatically, might be we're
• 20:36
  Speaker 4: going to talk a lot about topic X.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, your X is coming to Thanksgiving. Yeah. Yeah. So
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: I mean there's a lot of stuff that just because
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: it's your picture of how you want it, that doesn't
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: mean that you get what you want. Sometimes, you know,
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: they're like, well, no, I don't want that, I don't
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: want that at all, this is what I want, and
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: so you kind of have to figure out like, okay, well,
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: and this is the difference again between like, you know,
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: rules versus boundaries, Whereas like rules are like nope, this
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: is how the game's played. Well, if you have control
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: of the game, sure I set those rules. But if
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: you don't, then you understand the difference is a boundary
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: is if I'm gonna play the game, here's what I want.
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: And so it's either I'm going to do things this
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: way or I'm not going to play the game. That's it.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: Those are the only conditions you have. But you you
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: can't always decide how the game's play.
• 21:29
  Speaker 4: Like I live several thousand miles away from family, and
• 21:34
  Speaker 4: when things happen in the family without me, I don't
• 21:38
  Speaker 4: get to be upset about that, Like I'm the one
• 21:40
  Speaker 4: who's not there and so like and I'm the one
• 21:44
  Speaker 4: who's chosen not to be there, and so you know,
• 21:46
  Speaker 4: if they have a family family reunion without me, like
• 21:51
  Speaker 4: I assume that I'm invited, and oftentimes I don't get
• 21:57
  Speaker 4: the official invite even because it's you know, Jacob and
• 22:00
  Speaker 4: be able to make it.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: We don't want to bother in.
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: Several thousand miles underground, you know, because they're more people,
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: and you know, you've chosen to live on the stir.
• 22:07
  Speaker 4: We live at the same longitude in latitudes identically different elevation.
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: Well, it's this whole ordeal. You don't usually get the invites,
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: you know, because it's hard. Similar system goes down every
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: now and yeah, the old banking tube system.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: Similar thing just happened in my family because my my grandmother,
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: I think, turns like ninety five at the end of May.
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: And so my mom called me and said, yeah, you know,
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: your aunt is trying to schedule a birthday party and
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: she wants, you know, everybody to be there. And I've
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: got like thirty cousins. Wow, they are all married and
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: all have like six kids. Oh lord, and most of
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: those kids are high.
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: School or older, probably like twenty.
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: And so I'm like, yeah, good luck, that's not going
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: to happen. There's only one way that that happens. There's
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: a single way that that actually happens.
• 23:02
  Speaker 4: That that is if Grandma calls everybody, sends out a
• 23:05
  Speaker 4: video message personally to everyone.
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: It is like I'm gonna die. Iiminutely.
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: This is it.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: Come see me at this event. Well, and what we
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: ended up that's that's the only thing I thought you
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: were going to say.
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: It's a treasure map thing where she's like, I have millions.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: It's the question you're out of the will.
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the only way.
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: The best solution. I think what they came up with
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: was awesome, which is basically a month long open house, oh,
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: which is just kind of like, Hey, if you happen
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: to be in Iowa and June, stop by Grandma's house.
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: That's the way to do it. You want to go
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: to Iowa, that down. I could definitely show up and
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: be like, I'm one of your grain. I think it's
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: open invitation. Oh, we should do it. We should go
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: to Gramma tangments. We got to go to you know,
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: I could as a relative. Not no, no, she's ninety five.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: But she is smart, she's fully functioning. I'm not saying
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: that your grandmother is That's what I'm saying. I mean,
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: like they have cousins and I don't know all of them.
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like he's got a really good shot.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's a way, there's definitely.
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: What about is the hair going to be a giveaway?
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: Does he need to cut his hair.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: No, No, I think you could be a boy. You
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: could pass as a boyfriend of one of the grandchildren. Oh,
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: that's I want to. I want to. I want to
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: get into the will. I think you go for it.
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: I think I believe in the will.
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: Bare foot overall straw hat. She will have no idea
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: which one you are. It's just going to be a blend.
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: Are tugged up in the hat, another one. It's all
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: this hour.
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I don't know what our advice.
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: I was going to say though, really quick. I think
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: the last thing Jacob had kind of left off on
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: was like, you can't be upset if you're not invited,
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: and I feel like, I mean, this is therapist Whitney speaking,
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: you can be upset, like you can have feelings about that.
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: But again it just goes back to like you might
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: be missing out on things, but it might be worth
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: the cost if you have a peaceful life and they're
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: missing out on things in your life like your parents are.
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: So it's reminded me of this little Instagram thing I
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: watched just the other night where a lady's talking about
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: how she reached out to her mom after being no
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: contact and she was upset by the response because essentially
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: the mom was like, well, you can't just come back
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: in my life, and you know what you put some
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: on the internet people have their own comments to say.
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: But it was a really interesting dynamic because I thought
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: that was kind of an asshole response from the mom,
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: But I also was like, she's not wrong, like she
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: doesn't have to give into your rules or boundaries, and
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: that may just feel validating in itself. Then you're like, oh,
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: I'm softening, let me reach out, and then you get
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: that response, you're like, Nope, made the right decision, let
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: me just stay back.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: I think an extra note on that as well, Joey.
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: I think if a person does this, one of the
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: things that I would often talk to them about is
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: not holding out for justice, because I think sometimes are
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: no contact if you're no contact is for you because
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: you vomit and you're viscerally unhappy every time you're around
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: this person or these people, and it's just it's for
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: your own mental health. Hey, I get that, and let's
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: support that and let's see you do that and let's
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: like navigate it. But I think sometimes there's this sense
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: of like I want justice, and when I find out
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: the family just moves on without me. When I find
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: out they take the side of my ex when I
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: find out that they're all celebrating, they're all happy. There's
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: this belief I guess that we hold that they should
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: all be mourning or they should be sitting around going
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: what have we done? You know, this weeping of gnashing
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: of teeth, like how do we win her back? Or
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: we need to apologize, and like you need to abandon
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: that sense of justice or that expectation. In my experience,
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: most of the time, it does not arrive. Humans will
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: not do it.
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: If you're doing it for you, do it for you,
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: do it only for you.
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: But yeah, if you're expecting any kind of justice, you
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: need to abandon that and you just need to decide,
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: I'm doing this for me, here's why. And if that
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: truly is what you land on, then I think it
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: becomes increasingly irrelevant what they do. Right If they go
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: on to have a family reunion or a good Christmas
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: or a Thanksgiving and they don't deal you in because
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: you've said stop contacting me, Yeah, okay, then then you
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: all just move your separate ways.
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: But just work on that relationship with your siblings. That's separate.
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I love that you're doing therapy on this,
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: by the way, I think that's huge.
• 27:29
  Speaker 4: I mean, I'm just kind of struggling get that because
• 27:31
  Speaker 4: I mean the relationship with the siblings and the parent,
• 27:33
  Speaker 4: like it's it's all going to be intertwined.
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: Sure it can be, it can be separate, and you
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: can be your best to keep it separate.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but it sounds like joe a mother figure to
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: her younger siblings, right, Like, And that's one of Joey's
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: points is like Mom was very neglectful and nobody was
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: there for me, so then I tried to show up
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: for you guys. That's why she has that whole side
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: story about like taking care of a younger sibling in
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: college and after a seizure and all this stuff, Like
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: mom doesn't do jack shit, so I and but that's
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: also something importan to Joey's And I don't think you
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: said this in the letter, but just in case, I
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: would hope you wouldn't perceive it as disloyal that your
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: younger siblings choose to have a relationship. But it isn't
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: an act of non fidelity to you or dismissiveness to
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: your suffering. They also get to have a personal choice
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: about whether or not they get something from that parent,
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: and it's worth it for them versus when it's not.
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: And you didn't say that, but I just I would
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: hope that again, if you're holding onto this like torch
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: of justice and like wanting this karma or something like that,
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: that's not going to come. So it has to be
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: for you, and that has to be a full stop
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: end of it, and you should be thinking, I hope
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: the rest of them are happy whatever. Mom's never going
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: to come crawling back tell me that she's wrong. There's
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: not gonna be this mutiny of all the siblings joining
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: together and unizing and standing against mom. It's not gonna happen.
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: It's not gonna be a vigil in your honor. You
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: didn't say that you wanted that, but in my experience, I.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: See that show. Okay, fair enough, we can assume I would.
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: We all would like a nice tasteful. But every month
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: I'm tired of going to your vigils. Yeah, yeah, it's lovely,
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: it's totally once a month.
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I've been banned from the tiki store. You know,
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: just keep going in there buying these things by the dozen. Anyway, Joey,
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: thank you for the letter. Glad to hear that you're
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: wrapping up the doctorate. Congratulations, Excited that you're going to
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: be crossing over.
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: That's going to be awesome for you. And glad to
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: hear that your life's going as well as it is
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: when you get it. Don't do anything foolish like that.
• 29:24
  Speaker 4: Don't proposition. I have a collection I would be interested
• 29:32
  Speaker 4: in expanding.
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: Wouldn't it be great if he just it's like human skulls,
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: all these advanced degrees from suckers who have come into
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: his stack up this faustian bargain anyway, picturing.
• 29:46
  Speaker 4: Like you know, the old like the poster setups you'd
• 29:48
  Speaker 4: see like Walmart and everything with the like the vertical posters,
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: huge book of them.
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, that's great library science. How did you
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: get that? That's because I knew if the Dodgers were gonna.
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: Lose anyway, Joey, congratulations, and you know, keep those boundaries
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: up for now. Focus on your life, your health, keep
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: going to therapy, because clearly this letter came in hot
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: because there's a lot of emotion still surrounding this and
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: so I want you to keep doing the work. And
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: that's the only healing that's really going to present itself.
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: You're not gonna find that from other people. You're gonna
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: find that within yourself. That's the only way to repair.
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: We're gonna take a quick break and when we come back,
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: we're talking R.
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: E S P e c T.
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: Find out what it means to me. You're listening to
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: pod therapy.
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: Today's episode is brought to you by Smitty Scoop, Mason Miller,
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: Test Miller, Builer T Paris, Team Monico, Oscar swanros Anna Marine,
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: Emma Kaine, Myra and Sam Cone. And if you'd like
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: sponsor the show, become a therap producer at patreon dot
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: com slash therapy so almost Doctor Nurse Joey. In addition
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: to the letter that we just read, send in some
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: trivia and I'm pretty sure this is just a fuck
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: you to Nick oh Good who has to read this. Yes,
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: welcome to my life medical trivia. Oh you know, damn well,
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: this is gonna be It should be a drinking game.
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, if you're at home, pour yourself a good stiff
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: drink and take a sip every time. He mispronounces a word.
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: You won't know, you'll know.
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: Drink anyway, Nick will pause for a long Just be confident.
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: Just that's right. In the uh we're gonna do. There's
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: only two questions, So you're all gonna have a crack,
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: all right, Okay, buzz it in. Okay, No, we're just
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: gonna let you pick, let you pick other options, yes,
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: all right. In the late one one nine nineteen fifties,
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: in the late nineteen fifties, start in the late nineteen
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: fifties and early nineteen sixties, Peladomi feladamide was marketed as
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: a medication to treat morning sickness associated with pregnancy. But
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: but but given the points, but ended up causing more
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: than ten thousand serious birth defects or I don't, I
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: don't remember this. I was not alive?
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: Was it?
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: Like? Fuck off? Ten thousand serious birth defects and numerous
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: miscarriages before being temporarily pulled from the market, which brought
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: it back. Yeah, now it's in the milk. Which medical
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: condition do we still use palladamide to treat today? Select
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: all that apply.
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: There's more than one Okay, Yeah, there you.
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: Go, Jacob's uh, here we go. A leprosy.
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: I mean that's that's fair though, right, it was like,
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: but this thing is like a really shitty medicines like
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: leprosy like. I mean it's six and one half does b.
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: Plural?
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: Mm hmm. I guess that's when there's more than one
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: of you, that's right. Yeah, it's what Michael Keaton had
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: in the film multiple multiple documentary believe documentary documentary, dangerous condition.
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: I hope they find a cure for that. It's spelled
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: p L e U R I S.
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: Why.
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we know. Oh okay, I've seen the movie.
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: I just told you about a film recovery. Also, there
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: are so many Michael Keaton's right now. I mean it's
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: getting weird rights every honestly my opinion, not enough, not enough. Still,
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: every great, if every actor was just Michael, all movies
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: are just like AI is gonna get there one day.
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: We're gonna have every single part in the movie. We
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: make Top Gun, but all Michael.
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: Keaton, No, no, no, no remake basic instinct.
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: Michael Keaton, that's the one. I okay. See certain cancers
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: d h I V or e ebola.
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: The damn it was originally for morning sickness. Leprosy, h
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: I V, ebola, cancers or pleurisy.
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: Is it more than one? It is more than one.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: We're all going to fucking lose. So just pick two letters. Yeah,
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: it's two of them. Were just going until what are
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: we doing? Take a shot each, get one shot.
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna take plurisy because that was sexy. Okay, I
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: want plurisy, and go ahead and throw in.
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: Give me some of bola. I feel like a bowla
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: has gotta be a shot. I see you're bolak and
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: I'll give you HIV. You'll throw it in for free.
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: I don't know that I want it, nick.
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: Okay, So you want B and E polite pass for
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: the record. Yes, I'll take a breaking an entering Whitney.
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: I'll go A and C.
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: I don't even leprosy and certain cancers? Sure, I want cancers, okay,
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: just certain ones. Yeah? And what was hi V?
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: Give me give me h he's taking cancer and hi
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: V C D, B and E and A and C.
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: It's a n C whit he gets it? WHOA? Leprosy
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: and certain cancers? I knew the cancers one, yeah, I
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: had the cancers one for sure.
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: Half a point.
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: Okay, uh Okay, you're doing so good. No, this one sucks. Okay,
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: which bacteria I do? I really hate this.
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: Keep sending this in listeners, just make them so bad,
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: harder and harder.
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: I do better, luck, I would do better if this
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: was in French. I was not listeners.
• 36:02
  Speaker 4: The way you could make him suffer more is make
• 36:03
  Speaker 4: them mental health questions, because then when he can't read
• 36:07
  Speaker 4: the questions that are in the like the d h
• 36:10
  Speaker 4: L d h L, the moving company, in those trucks whatever.
• 36:16
  Speaker 4: I assume they just carry that book around in those trucks.
• 36:18
  Speaker 4: But it's a very big book. It's a very big book.
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: Which bacteria is considered to be the most infectious bacteria
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: of all time? Oh? Man a, oh my god? Uh?
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: Trump and Treponema paladum a k A syphilis b oh
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: my god. Uh methyl methacile, syllin, methicillin resistance traffic staph
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: infections sounds like infection, MRSA. Uh, I'm not even gonna
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: try that one. Cola Okay, I love it, uh, Michael,
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: Bacterium tuberculosis. And what's the question, Which bacteria is considered
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: the most infectious bacteria of all time?
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: So we got tuberculosis E Coli, mersa and syphilis and syphilis.
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: I'm going to jump on tuberculosis. Give me that syphilis again.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: All right, I can't get.
• 37:27
  Speaker 3: Enough because I actually think it's TV.
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: Probably it is tuberculos. Thank you, John Green.
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: I know that because you wrote a book called Everything
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: Is Tuberculosis.
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: That was right, That is what she wrote in here
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: d John Green wrote a book about it. Everything is Tuberculous.
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: Also makes me think you saw this trivia before I
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: bought the book. Oh yeah, and he read it.
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: Sounds like no, I gave it myself. I'm aware the title,
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: and I love John GREENO. Listen to his podcast, listen
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: to everything him and Hank do. So I was very
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: aware of it. My son loves micro biology and all
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: that ship. So I got in the book.
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: Did you call and talk to the guy who?
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: Oh?
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: That guy?
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: He gave me a cell phone number and so I
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: need to text him. But yeah, I'm going to talk
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: to him. I email him and he emailed me back
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: and then give me a cell phone number. But we
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: haven't been able to connect. Pretty excited the man who
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: shall not be named the man yea.
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: In my mouth. Yeah, so I'm winning right.
• 38:29
  Speaker 3: No, No, I think Whitney got yeah answers right, So
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: that's double yeah things crush.
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: It is the second round of trivia. More of that.
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: Exactly whatever?
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: All right?
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: R E s P E c T find out what
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: it means to me? So, I, thirties female, once read
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: this quote and it really resonated with me. Quote representation
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: of the world, like the world it's self is the
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: work of men. They describe it from their own point
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: of view, which they confuse with the absolute truth end
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: quote from Simone de Beauvier.
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: Is that how you say that? Next?
• 39:11
  Speaker 5: Huh?
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: We looker.
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: It made me more aware of how people myself included,
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: tend to treat our own perceptions.
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: As objective fact. Hmmm, I think it's bou yet vukoo shay, I.
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: Think it's beauv wire.
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: Hey, I fucking pronounced it right. Okay, I'm over here
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: doing laps on this bitch. He can't even get medicine names.
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: Idiot? Where were we at?
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: I've noticed my husband, thirty's male, is particularly prone to
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: dismissing me and my experiences. Compared to when we first
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: started dating ten years ago, husband is now more certain
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: in his experiences, more grandiose about his ideas, and he
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: has treated me in an increasingly belittling manner whenever I
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: disagree with him. One example, we were in a party.
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: Doesn't you're wrong?
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Nice, nice, nice, I'm proud of you. No, you
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: know what it was bold?
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: It was bold, and I know you had second thoughts
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: and you just fucking went. You just you ripped one out.
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: I'm really proud of you, man.
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: That was the move. Tried not disagreeing with him.
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: M hm and not speaking in that high pitched, naggy
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: voice that would you hear it too? I hear it,
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: just very high falsetto almost it just hurts my ears.
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: Have you seen that billboard that says this year millions
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: of men will die out of stubbornness and somebody graffitied
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: on there, No, we won't.
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: It's the best.
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: Its to be like a ps A campaign about like
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: just getting a medical checkout.
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: I love it. One example, we tried to go to
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: a doctor's appointment the other day. They canceled it on
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: what's called.
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: And Jacob refuses to make another one.
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: I'll show you. Yeah, no, our with both of our schedules,
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: the closest we were able to do was a month out? Yeah,
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: They're like, oh, no.
• 41:07
  Speaker 4: You've got you have priority since we're having to cancel
• 41:10
  Speaker 4: on you like this, let's let's find I was it great,
• 41:12
  Speaker 4: let's do it, Let's do it a week now, we
• 41:14
  Speaker 4: can't do it, then we'll how about the next one?
• 41:16
  Speaker 4: Can't do it then? And they're like going through these
• 41:19
  Speaker 4: different days. I'm like, no, no, none of those days.
• 41:21
  Speaker 4: They're like, oh, how about this Wednesday? Like, don't offer
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: me wednesdays. Yeah, you're not going to find a time
• 41:26
  Speaker 4: on Wednesday that's gonna work.
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: The American healthcare system. One example, we were in a
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: bar joking about he's on drugs Adderall for his ADHD,
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: which he only takes his prescribed and how it's hard
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: it's a hard drug since Adderall is an amphetamine. Then
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: husband states it's impossible to overdose on amphetamines. Now, I'm
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: no doctor, but I do have a college background in biology,
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: whereas husband has an engineering background. I replied, well, when
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: you take amphetamines as prescribed, yes, you won't die from
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: an overdose, but you can absolutely die from amphetamines. Husband
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: patted me on the shoulder and told me it's okay
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: to be wrong.
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: This man does not want to get laid. That is
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: a choice. My man, you were at a bar. It
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: was going really well for you.
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: I doubled down. You can overdose on amphetamines. You can
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: overdose on all drugs, with maybe the exception of weed.
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: I hear the screechiness.
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: You hear it, right, Yeah, it's way up there, just
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: like ooh, the class is gonna.
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: Be yeah, so God, tone it down. I'm sorry, writer,
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: I like that we're all just taking on this one.
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: This is good.
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: I gave the example of how alcohol has a depressive,
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: slowing effect on the body that can cause people to
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: stop breathing if they've taken too much. Husband, doubled down.
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: You cannot die from amphetamines or weed. I took out
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: my cell phone and googled what happens when a person
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: has an acute overdose.
• 42:56
  Speaker 4: Fuckers who plant a flag on a fucking hill these days?
• 43:01
  Speaker 4: What are you doing unless you fucking know, Like if
• 43:05
  Speaker 4: you hear me planting a flag on something?
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, very least. I think I'm one hundred million percent.
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: I can only think of like two things that I
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: would really plant to flight on. One of them is
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: not many. One of them is Pergolis. Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure, yeah,
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: the hill. We now die.
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: They're terrible.
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: You're going to and I'm by your side, Okay, I
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: want to know that I'm your right.
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: Dies.
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm at the Perkole party. Bitch, you're just jealous.
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: We're also at the Perkola party, just not under the
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: because they're going to get burned and we're going to
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: be half burned. I took out my cell phone and
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: googled what happens when a person has an acute overdose
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: of amphetamines. They stimulate slash, speed up the body's metabolism,
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: and you can overheat, have seizures and die.
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: That was already nicer than what I would have done.
• 43:56
  Speaker 4: What I would have done is pulled out my phone
• 43:58
  Speaker 4: and without breaking eye contact with my spouse, I would
• 44:02
  Speaker 4: have said into my phone, Hey Siri, can you overdose
• 44:07
  Speaker 4: on amphetamines?
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah? That's absolutely what I would have done.
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: That's better than I think what a lot of people
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: would have done, which is handed him his bottle of
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: amphetamines instead.
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: My favorite answer, I'll.
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: Drive us to the er and we'll sit in the
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: parking lot and let's just go to town.
• 44:29
  Speaker 3: I was going to say, then you don't know. He didn't.
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: You put your money where your mouth is.
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: Husband did not admit that he was wrong, but he
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: also did not push the topic further.
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: No, ship, and you are a saint for not saying
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: the words it's okay to be wrong.
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: On the meanwhile, I was seething, I was frustrated, I
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: felt dismissed. I took it took effort to calm myself
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: down and switch to a different topic. Another example, we're
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: driving to Costco, a weekly ritual of ours. We're on
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: the main road and husband is preparing to take a
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: left turn onto a smaller street. The oncoming traffic has
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: a stop sign, which husband did not notice. After we
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: safely make a left turn, he comments about how it
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: was weird for the oncoming traffic to yield to our
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: left turn when when through traffic has a right of way.
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: I told him they don't have a right of way
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: because they have a stop sign. Husband says, well, you
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: have bad vision, buddy, you gotta you gotta stop.
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: Okay. In his defense, he's on a lot of amphetam
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: this whole time.
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: He's right now.
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: High driving so slow. Actually, you know what, when when
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: was this letter in this guy, this guy dead, this
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: guy might be. This might be a moot point anyway.
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: Yes, I have to wear glasses while he has been
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: blessed with twenty twenty vision. But I was wearing my
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: glasses and I saw the stop side. Husband makes our
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: standard bed a reciprocated There was a stop side. Yeah,
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: you can also just see that big head.
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: It just there.
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: Husband makes our standard bet a reciprocated back massage that
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: I didn't see it. I raised the ante and my voice.
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah we can tell, and I bet an unreciprocated back
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: massage that there is a stop sign. This makes husband hesitate.
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: He suggests we can check on the drive home. But
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: I didn't have to get so intense about it.
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: Oh God, what a move.
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: Continue, you're just getting so excited, hysterical if I may,
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: This is a great way to gaslight your wife is.
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: Such a good letter. When we leave, we take a
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: different route home, and Husband comments that we can't verify
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: the press. He'll have to wait till next week.
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: Oh nice move, dude, Nice move. For context, husband comes
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: from a big family where conversations are loud, direct, and
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: often borderline abrasive. Dinner conversations are like the verbal equivalent
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: of bears wrestling each other. Statements are made that are
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: borderline rude, but are said without malice. So I don't
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: take offense to his comments like you have bad vision
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: or your emotional but I do take offense to the
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: context in which it's used. It completely invalidates my experiences.
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: Husband doesn't know how much his dismissiveness during these weekly
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: disagreements bother me. I haven't brought it up because I
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: know that he'll brush me off as being too emotional.
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: I want to feel like he is equal in the
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: disagreement rather than a know nothing insubordinate. My question is
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: how do I bring this up to him in a
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: way that he'll actually hear me? And how do I
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: set slash and force boundaries when he talks to me
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: this way without escalating the situation into a bigger conflict.
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: Much love, signed Aretha Franklin.
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: Oh wow, there's so much what I want to say
• 48:13
  Speaker 3: right away Whenever Aretha you mentioned I.
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: Believe it's Oh, Queen of Soup, thank you for correcting her. Yes,
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: oh yes, he doesn't even have it. He doesn't even
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: have a copy of the script. He just knows you're
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: not pronouncing it right anyway, Whitney, I think that we're
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: done with your thoughts. Yeah, thanks, I'll jump in. I'm
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: gonna jump in. Guys love the show. You have to
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: have something jump in with.
• 48:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah, go, I'll listen for now. Just calm down, I'm
• 49:06
  Speaker 3: very calm, very calm.
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: A scholarly show.
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: Anyway, you're good, Go on, doctors, if.
• 49:23
  Speaker 3: You learned, doctors. It is challenging when you say at
• 49:31
  Speaker 3: the end, like I don't I want to bring this
• 49:34
  Speaker 3: up about escalating the situation. Who fucking cares at that point? Okay,
• 49:38
  Speaker 3: here's my thing. No, here's my thing. Yeah, you don't
• 49:42
  Speaker 3: want to try and escalate, okay, But also I'm I'm
• 49:46
  Speaker 3: not going to be worried about his reaction because that's
• 49:48
  Speaker 3: his problem. My my issues are going to be what
• 49:51
  Speaker 3: my problems are. My problems are. I'm feeling invalidated. You're
• 49:55
  Speaker 3: you're just treating me like a child, and yeah, like
• 49:58
  Speaker 3: an insubordinate however worded it. But that's not okay. And
• 50:03
  Speaker 3: you are an angel for even accepting some of the
• 50:06
  Speaker 3: things to saying and saying like oh I don't mind
• 50:08
  Speaker 3: this or that I would like that's that's gonna be
• 50:12
  Speaker 3: a no, like, absolutely not, But you don't. You don't
• 50:17
  Speaker 3: have to take that. I think you can share with
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: him in a very calm manner if you choose to
• 50:21
  Speaker 3: do so in a calm manner, like, Hey, when you
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: say these things, this is how I feel. I know
• 50:29
  Speaker 3: it's like therapy, one on one, basic bitch therapy, but like, yeah,
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: when you say this, this is how I feel. And
• 50:35
  Speaker 3: he can try and brush you off, and I would
• 50:37
  Speaker 3: just call that shit out right there. You're brushing me
• 50:39
  Speaker 3: off when you say that. Do you hear what I'm
• 50:41
  Speaker 3: telling you? Like, I would just ask him to repeat
• 50:43
  Speaker 3: it back, honestly. I mean, if he's gonna act like
• 50:45
  Speaker 3: a child, I'll treat you like a child. He doesn't
• 50:47
  Speaker 3: have to know you're treating him like a child, but
• 50:49
  Speaker 3: that's what we do with children. So repeat it back
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: to me so I know you heard me.
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, stand up when you're talking to me.
• 50:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And you don't have to say it.
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: With those little hands. What say with your chest chest? Bitch? Oh?
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: I noticed you didn't go back to the stop side.
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: Is it because you've lost your fucking way? You need
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: to ask directions back to the stop side.
• 51:13
  Speaker 3: No, I feel like you can say, you know, I
• 51:16
  Speaker 3: love you, I I love our banter, I like our
• 51:21
  Speaker 3: you know, little fun. What is it the reciprocating that
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: back massage thing? Like all that's fine and good, and
• 51:28
  Speaker 3: I know you come from a boisterous, you know, rambunctious household,
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: but for me, that is too much. And I'm just
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: telling you how I feel. If you choose to continue
• 51:37
  Speaker 3: doing the things you're doing or saying the things you're
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: saying without trying, then that's not going to go well
• 51:42
  Speaker 3: long term.
• 51:44
  Speaker 4: And I if you want to phrase it differently, I
• 51:47
  Speaker 4: think you can also phrase it. It's just like, this
• 51:49
  Speaker 4: isn't what I want my relationship to look like.
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah, it's very like.
• 51:54
  Speaker 4: This is not the back and forth that I'm like you,
• 51:57
  Speaker 4: you're used to this back and forth of like you know,
• 52:00
  Speaker 4: so the high arctane yelling at each other and you'll
• 52:03
  Speaker 4: like prove me wrong and you'll yell me down, and
• 52:05
  Speaker 4: then once you get yelled down, you expect everybody just
• 52:08
  Speaker 4: move on. But now you've been yelling for the last
• 52:11
  Speaker 4: ten minutes and now you're fucking pissed.
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he will either understand it when you explain it
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: to him or he'll understand it when he gets the
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: divorce paper.
• 52:20
  Speaker 3: Yes, he came out of nowhere.
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, right, at some point in his life, he'll get it.
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: He's gonna be like wrong, right, Yeah.
• 52:30
  Speaker 3: No, that's that's I think. My biggest thing is you
• 52:32
  Speaker 3: have to share with him how you feel. And if
• 52:34
  Speaker 3: he tries to invalidate, I would just call that out
• 52:36
  Speaker 3: in the moment. And that's not you creating conflict. That
• 52:39
  Speaker 3: is you sharing how your perspective and like Jacob said,
• 52:42
  Speaker 3: how you're feeling, like i don't want a relationship like that.
• 52:44
  Speaker 3: I'm okay with some of this, but I'm not okay
• 52:46
  Speaker 3: with this part. And if he's not willing to accept that,
• 52:50
  Speaker 3: I mean, that's a different conversation. You can you can
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: figure out what's what you want to do with that pit.
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: Great idea, that's option one. Okay, Okay, Whitney's good job, Whitney.
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: Whitney's idea, Option one. I think it's fantastic. It's a
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: great start, really great star. Yeah. Yes, if you don't
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: want to go that way, I'll let you in a
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: little secret secret. Man. This is the thing. If if
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: you want to explain something to a man, or you
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: want to win an argument to a man. Okay, you
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: have to speak the man's language and let her know.
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: Men learn through statistics. Okay, Option option one you have
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: a conversation like Whitney's idea. Option two is you keep
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: doing these bets, you keep kicking his ass, and you
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: keep really good statistics. It spread where going.
• 53:56
  Speaker 3: Calendar?
• 53:58
  Speaker 6: Okay, because I mean at some point if you are
• 54:02
  Speaker 6: oh and ninety five, like guys who go play basketball
• 54:08
  Speaker 6: at the y and they just get their ass beat
• 54:11
  Speaker 6: every single Tuesday night that they're playing pick up basketball,
• 54:14
  Speaker 6: you know what they stop doing.
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: They stop playing basketball.
• 54:17
  Speaker 3: I know they divorce. You're encouraging him to divorce.
• 54:22
  Speaker 4: You are exploring the path of trying to win this argument,
• 54:28
  Speaker 4: and I think that is the wrong path to go down.
• 54:31
  Speaker 4: I think stop betting back massage. Oh, I think start
• 54:35
  Speaker 4: betting one hundred dollar bills.
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: Oh, there it is. I think very simply, you just
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: start betting one hundred dollar bills.
• 54:42
  Speaker 3: Oh my god, I actually really like this.
• 54:44
  Speaker 4: And I think the way you start it is you
• 54:47
  Speaker 4: go to the bank and you walk into the bank
• 54:50
  Speaker 4: and you get say four or six an even number
• 54:54
  Speaker 4: of one hundred dollars bills, and you hand half of
• 54:58
  Speaker 4: those to him. Oh and that's how you started. You say,
• 55:02
  Speaker 4: here are your two hundred dollars bills. I have two
• 55:05
  Speaker 4: hundred dollar bills here these are this is our new currency.
• 55:09
  Speaker 4: This is fuck this massage ship. Yeah, I'm not getting
• 55:12
  Speaker 4: the massages I want anyway.
• 55:15
  Speaker 7: So.
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: Massage not strong enough. So you know what I want?
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: I want to see.
• 55:22
  Speaker 3: No, I want to go pay for my massage and
• 55:27
  Speaker 3: after you walk.
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: In in a few weeks with fucking rolexes on. Yeah.
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: Person, this kind of person though, God, they are insufferable
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: and like to be married. I mean, like, look right,
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: I don't want to not disider just ship on your husband,
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: like you know obviously you're happy.
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you go do it for money only for money
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: on the chest. No, but like this kind of is
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: used to be a family show. No, but like this
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: kind of person will there what coffee take?
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: It is such an annoying thing whenever you talk to
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: a friend or you have that person in your group
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: who just always like they again, they pick these weird
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: hills to dig.
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they're really.
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: Contentious and just like no matter what you say, they
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: always have to correct or they always have to like
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: add actually, yeah, the well actually guy. Fuck, oh you
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: just it's a really annoying move. It's just really off
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: putting to other people. It lacks intellectual humility. And like
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: I love this quote by the way, Like that was
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: a really good quote to start off your letter with you,
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: And I also think that you're humanizing the experience a bit.
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: And the writer kind of says like, look, you know
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: I do this too, Like we all think we're right
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: in our own mind. But the difference is do you
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: have the intellectual humility to understand that you are often
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: not right and to hold conclusions loosely because it's off
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: putting and because you're not leaving room to learn.
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: Well, that's it.
• 56:47
  Speaker 4: I mean, if you're the well actually guy and you're
• 56:50
  Speaker 4: right all the time, sure, that's one thing. Yeah, if
• 56:53
  Speaker 4: you're the well actually guy and you're wrong.
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: Right, And this is where I think Nick and Jacob's
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: theory is to beat it out of him.
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: By helping him learn through cold hard facts, yeah, that
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: you're not what you think.
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: It's basically the version of a guy who's all talk
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: and then you finally just play him one on one
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: and fucking stuff him and just like he just never
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: gets the ball out and you're just like he misunderstanding
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: that you're this bad, like not what.
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: You My plan is not he learns a lesson. My
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: plan is you just make one hundred dollars every time.
• 57:24
  Speaker 3: It's it's just when win, no matter what.
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: That's a good idea because then at that point then
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: you will enjoy him being wrong.
• 57:31
  Speaker 8: Oh yeah, then you're great or nothing on the stop side,
• 57:35
  Speaker 8: and now all you're seeing his opportunities. I think the
• 57:37
  Speaker 8: stat sheet is the wrong move. I think you just
• 57:40
  Speaker 8: go with one hundred dollar bills and you just say
• 57:43
  Speaker 8: that great, this.
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: Is just this is life.
• 57:45
  Speaker 3: I feel like the stat sheet he will still find
• 57:47
  Speaker 3: a way to gaslight around that. I mean, he's avoiding
• 57:49
  Speaker 3: going home to not get proved, like that doesn't matter
• 57:52
  Speaker 3: to him. One hundred dollars bills that matters people.
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it hurts.
• 57:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: I do think there's a possibility, a very small possibility,
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: that Whitney's right.
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: Uh again a tomic. You know what. I have an idea,
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: you know, I have an idea. I think I think
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: you should talk to him, say more. I think it's
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: classic therapist thing, like basic bitch therapy. Yeah, but I
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: think like you just got to explain. Yeah, you know,
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: well you know he's explaining those Yeah, it's just like
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: I don't know. It wasn't listening, Yeah I was, I
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: was listening.
• 58:36
  Speaker 3: I do no.
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: But there is some truth to this, right, Like if
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: you're with somebody who like, Look, I'm sure there's so
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: many qualities you love about your husband.
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: I'm sure there's so much that's good.
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: But whenever, over the years, this person increasingly becomes condescending
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: and hyper arrogant. I think at the end of the day, yeah,
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: we can try to humiliate them, we can try to
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: fight fire with fire, we can get increasingly passive aggressive.
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: But the writer says, look, I don't want to escalate this, right,
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: I don't want to have an unhappy marriage. I don't
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: want to fight, and if I win, I don't feel
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: like I'm winning. Like there's that old marriage therapy, you know,
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: axiom that says you can either be right or you
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: can be happy, but you.
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: Can't be both.
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: And in this situation, unfortunately Whitney's right that you know,
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: that's where you have to sit down with your partner
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: and you have to say, look, I don't like this
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: dick measuring contest that the two of us constantly get
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: into sometimes your tone is playful and then sometimes it
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: quickly moves into condescending and hurtful. And I think that
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: you're not good at sensing when that line is crossed.
• 59:28
  Speaker 4: Also when you're when you are wrong, it makes you
• 59:31
  Speaker 4: look like an idiot. Yeah, and I don't know, but no, no,
• 59:37
  Speaker 4: that's it.
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: That is it.
• 59:38
  Speaker 4: It is like, it makes you look like an idiot,
• 59:42
  Speaker 4: and I don't want my significant other to be an idiot.
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, or you know another phrase like it upsets me
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: when my significant other looks like a fucking idiot, and
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: it does. That's what it looks like.
• 59:54
  Speaker 5: Would you yell at me that there's not a stop
• 59:56
  Speaker 5: sign and I can see the fucking stop sign? Yeah,
• 59:59
  Speaker 5: you fucking get I have seen that move actually work though,
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 5: in couple's therapy where the wife said some variation of that,
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 5: but she said, it's just it makes you look unattractive and.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: Because you know, she's like, I'm so attracted to you.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: She started with that premise, but it's just and I'm
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: really attracted your intellect. But I always think it's it's
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: more attractive when you have like a humble, you know, stance,
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: because you are very smart, and usually you have a
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: way of teaching.
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: So smart, but it's so unattracted intelligence. Well, I think
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: it's it's like this.
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: It's like whenever you do counseling with somebody with NPD,
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: with narcissi perci, we don't.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: Tell them they have that doesn't work. Instead we say
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: so what's going wrong in your life?
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: And they're like, everybody around me is just a fucking moron,
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: and they all run away from me because they're so
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: intimidated about it.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: The kindest thing we can do for stupid people is
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: to just help them understand that they are stupid, help
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: them learn. Well, they don't, don't try to do these things,
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: you idiot.
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: Well, I think for the writer there is I think
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: Whitney's theory is a really good one if you're trying
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: to be collaborative, if you don't want to one up them,
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: but to pull them aside and explain there are qualities
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: about you. That is part of the reason I married you.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: I love your confidence. I love that you constantly think
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: of interesting things to say, and that you know I'm
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: fascinated by you. I learned things from you all the time.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: But there is this line where it comes off as
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: hurtful to me, and it's no longer playful, it's no
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: longer kind of this boyish charm that you have. It's
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: it's unattractive and it's hurtful and it's kind of gross.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: And when that happens, I feel myself pulling away from you.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: I want to push back on you, and the ruins
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: are night right. So like, I love your theory on
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: that Whitney that it's like, no, we do need to
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: have this proactive conversation that we explain with their feeling words.
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: This is what's happening inside of me when you do that,
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: and in the future, the next time you do that,
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: instead of fighting you on the fact or falseness of
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: the claim making or whatever you're saying, I'm going to
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: let you know, Hey, this is one of those moments
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: where your tone is sharp and this is hurting my
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: heart a little bit, and I'm just gonna ask that
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: we not take a hard stand on this one.
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: This feels weird. What'd you say, Jim, Oh nice, it
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 2: doesn't work the other way.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 3: I don't know. I think that was pretty good.
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: All the ladies listening are like, ohber, it's not like this,
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: you know, with that high shrilly shit.
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: They sound what they were saying.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: Anyway, I think about seventy percent of.
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: What Whitney said was right.
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, according to you know, it was good.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: Enough anyway, Area, Thank you for the laughs.
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: That is a great question. I'm glad that we got
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: to read it, and thanks for being a listener. I
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 2: just like to I'm glad when we hear that celebrities
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 2: are listening to the very flattering, very flat, especially dead ones. Yeah.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know a lot of people don't know our
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: largest demographic dead people.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: We're huge in funeral homes. Just played on rote more celebrities.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: Michael Keaton, if listening right in, uh, he's everywhere.
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: We're gonna take a quick break in when we come back,
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: we're talking about how to help an employee.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: You're listening to pod therapy. Today's episode is brought to
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: you by s Mindi, Scoop, Bason Miller, Test Miller, Biler,
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: T Paris, t Monico, Oscar Swandro's, Anna, Marie, Emma Kains,
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 2: Myra and Sam Cone. Would you like to sponsor the show?
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: Become a therapist for patreon dot com splash therapy. Alright,
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 2: I'm winning, I'm tays are over. Oh it's a new game,
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: new game, God damn it. Whenever, and I guess I
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: wasn't winning anyway. All right, let's go closest without going
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: over all? Right, how many countries are there in South America?
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: Jim O CA. So that's more than one? In Risk,
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: there's four. I'm gonna go with four. Okay, okay, ten? Okay, Oh,
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: there's more than ten. Fifteen Whitney twelve, wow, okay, Wow,
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 2: there are a lot. That is a lot of countries.
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: Jesus Wow.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: There's Chile, Argentina, Argentina, There's Brazil.
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: Paraguay, Uruguay, Peru, Colombia, Venezuela, Ecuador, Sirina.
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: Where all the crack comes from Colombia.
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: French Guyana and Guyana.
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: Huh, French. Guiana and Guyana are two different places.
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: They are one's French and one is not.
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: Get the fuck out of here. They're spelled the same.
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: No, that's pretty cool. What's the largest country without a
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: public airport? Oh?
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 3: Vatican all airport?
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: If we all three guesses.
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: All right round one fight, largest country without a public airport,
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna go Luxembourg, good guess, but no, you you
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: hear that it is in Europe.
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 2: Oh, Luxembourg is in Europe. Yeah, as well as the answer.
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 3: Great, just really talks to himself very close.
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: That doesn't help Jim because he doesn't know where Europe is.
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: I just remember that that's like a small country country.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 3: Even give me a hint now to can Jacob go next?
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: You can, but he might get it.
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 7: Let's say public airport, public airports, France, my brain camp, Germany.
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: They were all destroyed in World War solid.
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 3: Islands.
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: Let's try. Is that in Europe?
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 9: Spain, right, Transylvania, Yes, no, trans No, that's in Asia,
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 9: European countries.
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 2: Jim, you could do this time to suck them up,
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 2: all right, open book, use a nap if you will. Jim, No,
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: God damn it. All right, it still got one left. Uh,
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 2: I'm just gonna go.
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 3: No.
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: I can't take me oh of Vatican City. No, No,
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: I said that. It's a good guess from Jim.
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 3: Greenland.
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 2: No, it's on the border between France and Spain.
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 3: Ship I don't know, Monico.
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 2: No, that's not on the border of Spain from the
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 2: Mediterranean Spain.
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 3: What's that little island.
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 2: Were Napoleon Island?
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 3: Well, my guess was going to be this little island.
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 4: You can use it.
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 3: This is not no, I won't find it on the.
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 2: Jim. Whatever your guess is, it's wrong, as is Jacob's problem.
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: It's and I was gonna say Portugal Andora. That's why
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 2: I can never several airports like Lisbon.
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, flew from one airport in Portugal to another airport.
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 2: I've flown in two airports in Portugal. Great, I'm winning.
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: How to help an employee, as is the customary Australian greeting,
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: good day, cunts, thank you. I'm the team leader for
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: five guys who fixed hospital sterilization equipment.
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 2: I thought.
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: I feel like a letdown here. I was pretty excited. Really,
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: is the team leader.
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 2: Of a burger joint. Yeah.
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: We travel all over the place, covering an area roughly
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: Washington to Texas. That's about half the USA geography, Jim.
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: We talk with nurses, sterilization technicians and other staff members.
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: Will install, maintain, and repair the equipment, as well as
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: teach the folk who use it how to use it.
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: One of my guys over the last few months has
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 1: been getting more and more agitated, swearing on site, throwing
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 1: tools around in frustration, getting snippy with the nurses, just
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: being a bit of a cunt. Really, the work is
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: still good. Dude just needs to calm down.
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 2: He's about sixty years old, no friends, no family, jokes.
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: About how he hates everything, that's it and only wants
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: to talk to his bird and cat. He will complain
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: about his lack of friends or any personal life, while
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: also actively pushing people away. During a recent training session
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: with multiple technicians from all around the country, he went
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: out of his way to tell the others not to
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: ask him for help, don't call me with questions, don't
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 1: message me for advice, don't send me an email if
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: you complain, you can't make friends. Saying things like this
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: to people is probably why the last few months this
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 1: behavior has been getting worse. I forced him to take
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: a week off to calm down. He's been talking for
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 1: years and years about some Thai island that he would
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: love to visit someday.
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 2: I told him on his week off, do they have
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 2: an airport?
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 3: Ah?
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 2: That good?
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: I told him on his week off to go get
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: a passport and book everything to finally go to that
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 1: island later in the year where he can have a
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: few more weeks off and chill out. He's a crew
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 1: about nine weeks of annual leave, so clearly he needs
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: to be taking more time off from work. During this
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: week off, he accomplished nothing towards getting closer to going
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 1: on his dream holiday, and since coming back, his behavior
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 1: has continued to decline.
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 2: Oh so Thailand's cheap, especially from Australia. Oh right, yeah, yeah,
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 2: people don't as show you love going over there? Are
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 2: they close closer than we are? There?
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 3: You go?
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 7: Uh?
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 2: In the US? Thailand Australia, no said good day?
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 3: Hunt covering air raff from Washington to Texas. That's half
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 3: the US.
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but he's from Australia. Oh but he might live
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: in America, but I think.
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 3: He lives in the US.
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 2: He's giving us a US representation there that he covers
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 2: in Australia.
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 3: Oh I thought I was like Australian living in the US.
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: Oh okay, I'm glad we covered that up the end
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 1: of show. Yes, his behavior continued to decline when I
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 1: called the check on him, not asking about his work specifically,
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 1: just asking how he's going, because I know his mental
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 1: health isn't great. He says things like if he were
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 1: a bird, he'd fly into a jet engine. He also
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: flatly told one of the nurses at were but he
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 1: was thinking about killing himself. I've told him to take
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: more time off work to see a doctor or a therapist.
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 1: He refuses, saying sitting at home alone with nothing to
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: do does not help him. I forward him the details
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 1: of our EAP service, which he's ignored. When he was
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: going through the photo album on his phone to show
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: me something for work. I even caught a glimpse of
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: a selfie with a gun in his mouth. Is there
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: anything more I can do to support this person? I
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: call him just a chad and be a friendly ear.
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 1: I show him where to find mental health support. I
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 1: offer him time to relax, recuperate and get some help,
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 1: but he just turns it all down. I've even tried
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 1: to get him to listen to you, guys, because I
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 1: know you've helped me. I don't think he's.
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 2: Listening to this. If you are a friend, let me help.
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 1: What can I do other than just waiting to see
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 1: if today is the day he steals for home plate?
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 1: Thanks for all your help, signed goof scoop PS. A
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 1: reservoir of pillows would be a great attribute when going
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 1: on tour.
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 2: Is that it No, you had it right, Sure, I
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 2: got it wrong. I'm sorry. This sucks.
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm really grateful for this question because as the
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 1: writer was describing the anger from from the friend from
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 1: the coworker, the whole time that I was reading that,
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 1: I was thinking, oh, you know, this is I want
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: to make sure I make the point that one of
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 1: the manifestations of male depression is often anger and irritability,
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 1: and that's an incredible unfortunate symptom, right, because what we
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 1: tend to see with female depression is somewhat you'll see
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 1: isolation and stuff, right, but you'll see the classics symptoms
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 1: of sadness, which I think tends to be in some
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 1: ways attractive, right, Like people would like to comfort, there's pity,
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 1: there's there's a sense of like we must attend to
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 1: this person, whereas male depression often manifests as irritability, short temperedness, anger,
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 1: which inherently pushes people away and then just seen as
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 1: a dick.
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I I completely misread this because as it was
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 2: going I was thinking, Okay, grumpy old man, yeah right,
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 2: just somebody who's just just me you, well, yeah, you're
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 2: just kind of like I've been doing this job for
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 2: so long. I'm tired of this. I'm not going to
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 2: listen to other people. There's no incentive for me. I'm
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 2: not going to move up the corporate ladder. I'm not
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 2: going to do any of this. So now I'm just
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 2: going to say how I really feel. But in hindsight, uh,
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 2: the kind of grumpy old man stereotype probably is depression.
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 2: It's grief, loss, isolation, yeah, dread, Yeah, no that I.
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 3: Think it would be really challenging to work with someone
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 3: or even as it sounds like they're a supervisor to
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 3: this person. Supervisory, I mean because I think as a
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 3: supervisor you care about the people that are working for
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 3: you or on your team, and so I think it's
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 3: natural to want to reach out, just like you already have.
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 3: You're like, hey, these are all the resources I've given you,
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 3: given you eap information, like I've tried to let you know.
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 3: I mean, how many supervisors that like, take your time off,
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 3: go take your weeks Like, yeah, thanks, Australia, you can
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 3: share that.
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 2: When Goo Scoops said nine weeks, everybody, the four Americans
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 2: in this room were just.
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 3: Like, what.
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 2: That's what I wouldn't go do with nine weeks.
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 3: I know, I knew one person that would get six
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 3: weeks of vacation in the US for their job. I
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 3: was like, ooh, that's up there.
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 2: You don't even get nine weeks from maternity leave. Now
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 2: I can give a ship that baby's still wet. You
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 2: get back to work. You had a weekend, What do
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 2: you want? God damn, it was a long weekend.
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 3: You work remote, Just like, fine, You're welcome. So I
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 3: feel I hear that sense of responsibility over this person
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 3: because you are responsible for them in their work life,
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 3: and you naturally develop these personal connections with people we
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 3: work with typically, so now it might bleed into like
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 3: I feel responsible for how their personal life is turning out.
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 3: And gosh, I don't love my answer I'm about to give,
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 3: but pardon me. Feels like you have done like about
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 3: everything you can. I mean, unless you know of something
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 3: else you can try next. But really you have tried
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 3: a lot of things, goof scoop and at the end
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 3: of the day, like each person is responsible for how
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 3: they want to live their life. There is autonomy there,
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 3: and it's really hard to see that. And I think
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 3: you just calling and reaching out honestly, I think is
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 3: wonderful if you have this the mental space and emotional
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 3: capacity to still do that, because it can be draining
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 3: being connected to people who are depressed. They are not
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 3: typically in their best space. Yeah, it's hard. It's a hard,
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 3: hard place to be. So I think it's wonderful that
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 3: you're still reaching out to them, and I think continuing
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 3: to do that as long as you can is about
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 3: the extent maybe continuing to remind them.
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 2: But you've yeah, you've already done amazing. Yesh, like you've
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 2: already as you yeah you want yeahs this is just extra.
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you've done everything you can goof And you know,
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 1: I think that there's I love what you just said
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 1: Whittening about basically the dignity of risk, right, And this
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 1: is something that we as therapists often have to face
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 1: as well, because we'll have people that we know need help.
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 1: They're they're not at the threshold we would like call
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 1: aus like ward and put them in there, but we
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 1: know they need to follow up, and they're giving up.
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 1: They're saying, what's the point of all this? It doesn't matter.
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 1: Nobody cares about me anyway, And you're trying to just
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 1: keep them engaged and keep them coming back, and there's
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 1: a sense of like, look, I can't chase them down right,
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 1: And in an addiction treatment, we've seen the same thing
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 1: where we often tell people I'm not willing to work
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 1: harder for your recovery than you like. At the end
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 1: of the day, I have to grant you that the
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 1: dignity of risk, the dignity of personal autonomy. In fact,
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 1: that's one of the sense principles in our ethical coats
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 1: is to ultimately allow them. And some people are going
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 1: to choose to be sick and choose to embrace the suffering,
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 1: and that's something they want to do. We can offer them,
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 1: we can keep opening up that door checking on them.
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 1: But as you both have said, Goose Scoop has already
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 1: done that. So I do think that there's nothing morally
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 1: wrong with allowing somebody that space. And you know to
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 1: the extent that your consciousness wants to keep checking in
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 1: on them, and that feels moral to you that I
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 1: think do that to be consistent with yourself. But I
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 1: don't want you to feel like it's your burden.
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 1: But having said that, I think this letter is so
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 1: illustrative to so many listeners who do struggle with depression.
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 1: There are people listening to this right now who have
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 1: done this exact same thing. They are the grumpy old
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 1: man in this at any age, inside of the delusion
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 1: of depression, it is a jail cell locked from the inside,
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 1: and you are pushing everybody out of your life. You're
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 1: saying to yourself, nobody actually cares. When people show up
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 1: and show some symbol of care or concern, you convince
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 1: yourself it's not real. It doesn't count, it's not enough.
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 1: They're just annoyed whatever. And then you sabotage the relationships
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 1: and you're just constantly firing a gun in your own
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 1: boat and wondering why your feet are wet. And this
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 1: is why this is a goddamn mental illness. Like that
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 1: is crazy town. Like you are destroying your own ecosystem,
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 1: your own life. You are causing yourself to get sicker
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 1: by experiencing the very same things that you believe you
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 1: are suffering from. And this is why you can't just
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 1: like will power your way out of depression. It's why
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 1: you have to go through this very long, multi modal
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 1: process of medicine and ecosystem change and fitness and movement
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 1: and social life and yeah, fucking therapy, and you have
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 1: to wiggle every corner of the triangle trying to get
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 1: something to budge. It is a very hard process. And
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 1: if you're out there and you hear this letter and
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 1: you think, God, damn, I do that, I'm sabotaging my relationships,
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 1: especially ment and you know, like we've talked about this before,
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 1: one of the things that I think this show enjoys
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 1: broad listenership. As far as I know, we don't have
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 1: any particular demographs.
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 2: Yes, some some I think apparently we can't pick anymore whatever, but.
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 1: No, I mean, one thing that I think over the
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 1: years we've been very I think pleased to find out
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 1: is that a lot of men have listened to the show,
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 1: and the jocular humor and the crassness and the blueness
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 1: and all our bullshit for them is very like normalizing.
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 1: And then we pivot hard and we start talking about
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 1: mental health. And we've had people over the years say,
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 1: as a man, I didn't know how to talk about
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 1: my emotions. I didn't know how to talk about these things.
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 1: And hearing this group of people talk about it, especially
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 1: men talking about it the way I know men talk,
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 1: normalized that it gave me the vocabulary to describe things
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 1: in myself, to recognize these things in myself. And so
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 1: I think letters like this are really really important, because,
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 1: especially for men, a very common manifestation of major depressive
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 1: disorder is volatility, anger, hatred, irritability, short temperedness, convincing yourself
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 1: that everybody's a jackass, that everybody's ignorant, that nobody does
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 1: anything right, and just push everybody away. And you have
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 1: to take that step back to realize I may be
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 1: going through an illness. I may be seeing the entire
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 1: world and all my relationships through these glasses of depression
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 1: that are just tinting everything with rage, and that that
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 1: is part of the disease. And if I can recognize that,
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 1: then maybe I can take up my eap, maybe I
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 1: can talk to my friend and maybe just touch that
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 1: emotion right to just fucking cry, like let hot tears
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 1: pour out, and just be honest with yourself that you're
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 1: not just angry, you're fucking sad, and that it's bigger
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 1: than you and you don't know what the answer is.
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 1: And there are so many men that say, oh, I'm
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 1: not gonna bother going to therapy because it won't fucking
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 1: help anyway.
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 2: Then fucking prove it.
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 5: Go, yeah, prove it.
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 2: Take all the amphetamines. Wait, that was the last question. Uh,
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 2: don't do that.
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 1: It turns out you can die according to Google. Many
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 1: people are saying, teach the debate, that's all we're saying.
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 1: It teaches the controversy. No, but like, if you're out
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 1: there and you've you've convinced yourself that nothing's ever gonna
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 1: fucking work, that taking an antidepressant is not gonna work,
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 1: that go in and talking to a doctor is not
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 1: going to work, that opening up to your friends isn't
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 1: gonna work, going to see a therapist isn't gonna work.
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 1: Then fucking put up or shut up, go do it,
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 1: show up, go do the entire course of treatment. And
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 1: when they say they give up and there is no
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 1: more point and you're dismissed, then you can call it quits.
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 1: And by quits, that just me not going to therapy,
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 1: not a drownding home base. But yeah, I just I
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 1: hear stories like this, and I think it's so important
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 1: to understand from that old man's perspective, not even that old,
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 1: he's in the sixties, but like just this thank you.
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, easy.
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 1: But like from that person's perspective, the employee's perspective, he
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 1: doesn't probably understand that he is going through all the
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 1: symptoms of depression right now. He probably just thinks the
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 1: world is rejected at him, life is not worth living,
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 1: and he's just going to continue to escalate and hurt
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 1: himself and others until he pushes everybody away. It's just
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 1: really sad to watch now.
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 2: I will say, goofscoop. One of the things that Jim
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 2: said kind of comparing this to our role that we've
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 2: done in substance use treatment, because I think this will
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 2: hopefully be some good advice for you to be able
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 2: to take and use. And it's just more of a perspective.
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 2: But I always used to use this example a lot
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 2: with my interns is to kind of understand what your
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 2: role is and what you have control over and what
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 2: you don't. And the best metaphor that I've come up
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 2: with is rock climbing. If you've ever done any rock climbing,
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 2: there's always the person that's on belay, that's on the
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 2: rope right, that's at the very bottom, that basically anchors
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 2: themselves in. They're strapped into the lead rope, they take
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 2: the slack out. You know, so when this person, if
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 2: the person who's climbing falls, they can catch him. That's
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 2: your role. That's it's you get ballaied nice. And the
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 2: thing is with that is like you have to understand that,
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 2: like you can you're not the one climbing, and it's
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 2: frustrating to be in that position and see someone struggling,
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 2: But you have to understand what you can do and
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 2: what you can't. Like you can point out like, hey,
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 2: you've got a handhold, you know at at at ten o'clock,
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 2: can you reach that? Or hey, you know this spot
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 2: doesn't look good. Maybe if you go this way, you
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 2: can provide some advice. But one thing you can't do
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 2: is you can't pull them up the mountain. It doesn't
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 2: work that way. You know. The best thing that you
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 2: can do is just let them know that you're there
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 2: and that you're not going to go away and you'll
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 2: be there in case they fall.
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 1: Best you can do I think another thing that that
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 1: goofsecoop can do. And I'm totally open to being challenged
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 1: on this. I'm throughout an idea and if if it
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 1: comes off the wrong way, pushback on it.
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 2: Can you Can you be less emotional? Yeah? Yeah, you
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 2: get it. So No, But like Jess, there's two of them.
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 3: I'm bleeding onto him.
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 2: As long as you're not bleeding none of the furniture.
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 7: No.
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 1: But like in addictions treatment, and I think in this too,
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 1: sometimes the most helpful thing you can do is allow
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 1: somebody to experience the natural consequences of their choices. And
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 1: if I'm your boss and in your depressed state, I
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 1: know you're depressed, but you're being an asshole to your coworkers,
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 1: to our customers. We do medical technology, and you're giving
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 1: the nurses who ultimately work for our employers a hard time.
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 1: These are the people we're here to train, and you're
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 1: giving them shit. I can, at some point impose a
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 1: consequence on you, and I can pull you aside, and
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 1: I can say, listen, Larry, you have been inappropriate. You have.
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 1: We've getten complaints about you. You've been short tempered. You're
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 1: not being a good colleague. People feel intimidated by you,
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 1: they're put off by you. Our customers are unhappy with you.
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 2: I'm writing you up and that might feel.
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 1: Scary because you might think, like, well, hold on this
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 1: guy's really fragile.
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 2: You got trigger.
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 1: But I actually think that there's something very valuable with that,
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 1: because goofscoop has an ability to impose a natural consequence
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 1: on this person in a way that may cause him
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 1: to open up his eyes. He doesn't want to take
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 1: off time from work, so he clearly still values his
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 1: identity as an employee. And if you come to him
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 1: and go, look, this isn't personal, your work behavior is inappropriate.
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 1: And so I require that you think about this. I'm
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 1: putting you on a PIP and I encourage you to
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 1: go get some fucking help.
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah or yeah, you're on an administrative leave until you
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 2: access the EAP, you know, to the extent I wonder
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 2: if you can.
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, if there's a world where you can do that,
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 1: I think as long as you've documented everything, I would
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 1: stop pulling my people.
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 2: I've heard of employers doing this before, like sending their
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 2: people to employ anchor man management. Yeah. So if you
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 2: want to keep your job, then you need to go
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 2: complete these anger manage classes.
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 1: So I had a patient in exactly that situation where
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 1: it was a male. He was very very pressed. Nobody
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 1: in his life knew it. He was lashing out at everybody,
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 1: and the only way that he ultimately got help was
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 1: because he lashed out one too many times at work.
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 1: He went way too far and there was a complaint chain,
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 1: and then the supervisor brought him aside and said, yeah,
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 1: we are upset at this, We're documenting all this. You
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 1: are in real deep shit, and we actually do require
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 1: that you now go through our EAP and complete an
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 1: anger management course and when we have confirmation that that's done,
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 1: then your PIP is resolved.
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 2: And that's ultimately what led to.
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 1: Him getting therapy with me was because he went and
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 1: did anger management work completely unrelated to me, and through
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 1: that process learned that he's probably fucking depressed and like said, well,
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 1: maybe I'll go to individual therapy, and that was the
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 1: only thing.
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 2: It probably saved his life.
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 1: But like, that's what goofscoop can do, and we've seen
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 1: that in addictions treatment all the time. A lot of
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 1: interventions also have the person's boss as part of it,
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 1: and that's often one of the most powerful motivators, is
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 1: that the boss showing up and saying this is no
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 1: longer okay. I think that you're way too much. You
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 1: embarrass us, your liability I insist that you get help
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 1: or there will be consequences, and like, sometimes we need
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 1: somebody to bring that natural consequence to that person because
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 1: it's the wake up call.
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 2: It's also treating them like everybody else.
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 1: Treating them like everybody else, like an adult, you know,
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 1: allowing them to have the consequence that they're.
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 2: Like, I'll give you the dignity of treating you like
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 2: an adult. I can't. I can't have somebody working for
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 2: me that's doing this all the time. I can't do it.
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 2: I know you're also sad. I know there's something going on. Man.
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 2: I want to help you. I want to help I
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 2: want to do whatever I can for you, but I
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 2: also I can't have this. Yeah. Yeah, and that's fair.
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah and goof scoop. You've tried everything else, so I don't.
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 3: I don't hate that idea at first.
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 1: I was, but I feel like that's also his role,
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 1: Like you're allowed to let this guy experience the consequences
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 1: of his actions.
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And I do feel like, uh, you know, older populations,
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 3: especially if if they are really tied to their work
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 3: and that is their identity. Like you kind of hooked
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 3: me with that. I was like, that is very valid
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 3: that if you start not threatening that, but you know
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 3: things are going awry now at work, that it could
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 3: affect my job, I think then they will respond to that.
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 3: It's like, well, damn it, I gotta do this now
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 3: because my job's making me or whatever. Now I've gotta pip,
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 3: no gotta pip, and I've gotta go therapy.
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 1: I think that it's an important consequence because it brings
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 1: that real life component to it.
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 2: We've seen that a lot of.
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 1: Addictions treatment too, where it's like the only reason somebody
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 1: came out and got help was from that external motivator.
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 1: Nick's talked about this in the show before There's the
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 1: Carrot and the Stick. Sometimes people are internally motivated to
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 1: get healthy because they've realized that most of the time,
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 1: especially men, they will not go get help for anything
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 1: until something bad has happened. I mean, how many men
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 1: have shown up to therapy because their spouse finally told
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 1: them like I'm gonna fucking leave you, like that's it,
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 1: And it's like, well, who I don't want to still, right,
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 1: but this is a really common thing. You physical therapy
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 1: or mental therapy, poor bastard, But yeah, be fair.
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 2: He can't walk get to either. One broke his knee,
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 2: Kathy bates him.
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 1: But anyway, you know, Goof, You've done so much for
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 1: this person, and I think you've tried doing it the
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 1: right way. You've offered the time off. Apparently your employee
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 1: takes that as a punishment, and so I would almost
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 1: utilize that to say, listen, man, I'm rooting for you.
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 1: I'm here for you as a friend. I'm also still
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 1: your supervisor, and as Jacob languaged it, I cannot.
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 2: Allow you to do this anymore. So here's the deal.
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 1: You cannot treat people this way. The next time you do,
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 1: I'm going to have to follow the procedures of our job,
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 1: and I'm gonna have to treat you like I would
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 1: anybody else. I'm not pulling punches anymore. I hope you
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 1: see that as me treating you with respect by not
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 1: babying you. And then, you know, let the chips fall
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 1: where they may. Maybe the guy tunes up and he starts, okay,
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 1: well hold on, let me put myself in check.
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 2: Maybe he doesn't want that pip, maybe you don't want it.
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 1: And ultimately, if a person becomes self reflective and notices
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 1: that they're lashing out in anger. That is part of
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 1: depression treatment, right, Like I want them to become introspective.
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 1: If he doesn't and he can't help himself and he
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 1: does lash out, then he does get put on administrative leave.
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 1: And apparently he doesn't.
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 2: Fucking want.
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 1: Give him the pill, get out your pipp and cane,
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 1: give him rap across the face. Anyway, goof you're a
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 1: good person, you metal in this, But don't be afraid
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 1: to allow him to experience consequences, because sometimes if he's like,
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 1: well I don't want to miss any more work, okay,
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 1: then I need you to straighten up or go get
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 1: help man, And maybe.
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 2: That's the reason he would.
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 4: Also, he did not show you a picture of himself
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 4: on his phone with the gun in his mouth by accident.
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a solid point. Yeah, I mean, like, you
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 2: don't show pictures on your phone to people by accident.
• 1:30:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that dick pic I sent you guys though, that
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 1: was an accident?
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 2: Sure? Is that why it was framed? Yeah? No, I
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 2: have a duck pick and a snail mail.
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, you framed the ship yeah yeah yeah, then
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 1: you text did you get my picture?
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah? On accident?
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Oops? We had to sign, Yeah, certify mail. You
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 2: ensured that.
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 3: How much a lot?
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 2: Anyway, Goof Scoop, thanks for this letter. Did you see
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 2: We don't get the same picture either.
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 3: It was mine was a duck pickout.
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 2: Duck pick is a very sensible duck pick anyway, Nick,
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 2: and I got what I can only refer to as
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 2: a study. Anyway, Good luck with you, Goof.
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 1: We appreciate you. That's a really important letter here. I
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 1: think there's a lot to learn from it. And you
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 1: know you're out of moves that you can do on
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 1: the positive side, but allowing somebody to experience consequence somebody
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 1: is the kindest thing.
• 1:31:44
  Speaker 2: You can do for them.
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 1: We're gonna take quick break and when we come back,
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 1: we are wrapping up the show. You are listening to
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 1: pod Therapy.
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 2: Today's episode is brought to you by Smitty Scoop, Mason Miller,
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 2: Test Miller, Biler, t Paris Monico Ostro, Swanrose, Hannah, Marie
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 2: as A kne and Sam Cone. And if you would
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 2: like to sponsor the show, you've become a therap producer
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 2: slash therapy Sauce.
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 1: We get to the end of the show, we're reviving
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 1: a long lost segment of the show, which is apologies.
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 1: We actually got a letter with a correction to something
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 1: I said last Oh yeah, so a very good letter.
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 1: I'm actually gonna read it because I just think it's
• 1:32:19
  Speaker 1: a great learning opportunity. But last week, in the last episode, by.
• 1:32:23
  Speaker 2: The way, we love getting corrections. I always love getting directions. Yeah,
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 2: that's great, but not from Aretha Franklin. I don't. I
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 2: don't want her telling me what's what you know? Because
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 2: she just fucking wrong.
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 1: There was no stop sign, all right, I saw it,
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 1: shew nothing, there was a yield sign.
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 2: She doesn't know what the fuck she's talking about.
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 1: You know, she can't see you know that she wears
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 1: those glasses.
• 1:32:40
  Speaker 2: That's the when you start telling me about her, I
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 2: just have a hard time paying attention to what you're saying.
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I get it, I get it. So last
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 1: week we were talking about medicine. We were talking about antidepressants,
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 1: and I was recapping some of the different kinds of
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 1: antidepressants that have existed, and I was doing like a
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 1: very quick run through of general rations of antidepressants that
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 1: have led up to the current ones that are very
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 1: very safe. This is when you got into all of
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 1: the initials, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, and so one of them.
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 1: I've impressed that anybody listened through all of them. Yeah,
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 1: I'm sure they didn't, but one person did, surprise. So
• 1:33:16
  Speaker 1: one of the ones that we were talking about, I
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 1: was talking about are m A o I s or
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 1: maui's and I had just very briefly said, uh, yeah,
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 1: and those were really dangerous. And I'd even made a
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 1: joke about like, if you drink grapefruit juice, your heart
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 1: would explode, you know, and just which was obviously an exaggeration.
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 1: But the part where I said they were very dangerous
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 1: but I've moved on from them implied that nobody uses
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 1: them anymore, and if you prescribe them, that's a bad eye.
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 2: So this letters from somebody in the grapefruit industry. Yeah,
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 2: from Ocean Spray actually, yeah, spray corporations here, Jim, go
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 2: fuck yourself. Yeah, we know where you live. Uh.
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 1: This is a physician responding to me.
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 2: Nice. Yeah, really appreciated this letter.
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 1: Somebody I'm gonna read it.
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 2: This is great because Jim is not a doctor, yea,
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 2: not even close.
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 1: So the letter reads, Hi, First, I've been a patron
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 1: for some time and appreciate the way y'all handle complex
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 1: and difficult topics with both the necessary seriousness and a
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 1: sense of humor. However, I do feel compelled to push
• 1:34:14
  Speaker 1: back on one thing. On episode four thirty six, Jim
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 1: said that MAO inhibitors were dangerous. I'm concerned that a
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 1: person hearing this might be unnecessarily.
• 1:34:23
  Speaker 2: Eye stands for inhibitor. That's it.
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 1: They might be unnecessarily fearful of trying one of these
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 1: drugs if other antidepressants had not worked. As a physician,
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 1: I'm an anesthesiologist, not a psychologist or a psychiatrist. I
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 1: spend a fair amount of time discussing why the thing
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 1: that the patient read or heard on the internet is
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 1: not correct in trying to allay unnecessary fears about certain
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 1: medications or anesthetic techniques. So I was dismayed to hear
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 1: Jim say that a drug class that is still used
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 1: was dangerous without any qualifications. It's true that MAOIs have
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 1: some interactions with other medications that can cause life threatening complications.
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 1: Merparidine a ka demarrole is the most famous, but there.
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 2: Are grapefruits exactly but just true. But there aren't that
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 2: many drugs.
• 1:35:15
  Speaker 8: I feel compelled alive, but.
• 1:35:20
  Speaker 1: There aren't that many drugs you have to watch out for.
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 1: It's also true that patients taking ma aois have to
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 1: be careful about eating certain types of foods, typically aged
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 1: cheeses and meats, since they can result in dangerously high
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 1: blood pressure, although it appears that the actual risk of
• 1:35:36
  Speaker 1: this is significantly lower than was previously thought. Aged meats,
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 1: I think so, or just age cheeses and any meats. Yes,
• 1:35:47
  Speaker 1: and I knew enough about these potential problems that I
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 1: was reluctant to try taking ma aois, even though I
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 1: was very depressed and the myriad of other antidepressants I
• 1:35:57
  Speaker 1: had tried had not worked or had cause significant side effects. Fortunately,
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 1: my psychiatrist was able to convince me to try it,
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 1: since it ended up working very well, I would encourage
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 1: you to walk back the characterization of MAOIs as dangerous,
• 1:36:12
  Speaker 1: while noting that they do require a modicum of caution
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 1: to use. By the way, the above refers to non
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 1: selective MAO inhibitors, there are also selective MAO B inhibitors
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 1: that only inhibit a particular variant of the enzyme. These
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 1: are frequently used for treatment of diseases like parkinsonianism and
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 1: do not have the same risk of interactions that non
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 1: selective MAO inhibitors have. Sorry for the long email, but
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 1: I thought it might be helpful to explain my reasons
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 1: for writing.
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 2: Keep up the good work.
• 1:36:43
  Speaker 1: I'm sure your show has helped a lot of people,
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 1: myself included, to better understand mental health issues, both from
• 1:36:50
  Speaker 1: the patients and the therapist's perspectives.
• 1:36:52
  Speaker 2: Whoop, doctor H.
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 1: So doctor H, thank you for that. That is a
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 1: great follow up. So I wanted to just read it
• 1:36:59
  Speaker 1: in its entirety so that folks can understand you are
• 1:37:01
  Speaker 1: absolutely right. My language was harried and inaccurate, so the
• 1:37:06
  Speaker 1: public is now better informed for you writing.
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 2: It that being said as an anesthesiologist.
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 1: Yes, according to the many degrees on the wall, I
• 1:37:14
  Speaker 1: do not.
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 2: Sleep well and I would like to get the Michael
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 2: Jackson cocktails.
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 4: Oh okay, yes, this is a request if you could
• 1:37:23
  Speaker 4: hook me up with you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, please
• 1:37:27
  Speaker 4: I just send that right on over. Yeah, I'd really
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 4: appreciate it.
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 2: I that you were speaking as an anesthesiologist. I didn't
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 2: know that H who is an anesthesiology, got it.
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 1: Yes, send us Horse tranquilizers. We'll take it live on
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 1: the show for our end of the month thing.
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 4: I mean, you know, I'm fine with the energy level
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 4: of the horses around me.
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 2: I for one, believe horses.
• 1:37:51
  Speaker 1: Anyway, Thank you, doctor h And as we wrap up
• 1:37:53
  Speaker 1: the show, want to remind you all you can go
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 1: to patron dot com slash therapy. You can get our
• 1:37:57
  Speaker 1: extended show ad free a day early, as well as
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 1: enjoy our live chat discord community and our deep dives interviews,
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 1: skill shares, research roundups and rants. And we've got some
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 1: new friends to welcome to the therap party here in
• 1:38:08
  Speaker 1: Mental Health Awareness Month.
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 2: Who's new to the party here, Nick, we got two
• 1:38:12
  Speaker 2: new therap pals welcome, Burnt Toasts Nice and Ed Johnson. Hey, hey,
• 1:38:17
  Speaker 2: if that's your real name called out, probably toasted Toast.
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 2: And we got two new therapods BB Hermit, Nice and
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 2: Sherry Phillips. Welcome I fam.
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 1: And we'd like to thank the Benevolent, revered, generous and
• 1:38:35
  Speaker 1: flagrantly pro therapy Diehard, who loves you all so much
• 1:38:38
  Speaker 1: they give till it hurts our therap partner, Pickett Ticket.
• 1:38:41
  Speaker 1: And we want to thank our bosses, the mysterious and
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 1: shrouded Illuminati members of the fan club that their producers
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 1: thank you. Jake Schneider, Meira, Robert Brownie, Junior, Mint, Smitty Scoop,
• 1:38:50
  Speaker 1: Richard Fucking Macy, Jody Schneider, Malia, Leon Cassab Carol and Albert,
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 1: Kevin Chamberlain, Tess Miller, Dan Martin, Sammy Scoop, Slurpie Kaye Motherfucker,
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 1: Ben Stanley, slapping your face, Sarah Smith, Adam Hathaway, Builer
• 1:39:03
  Speaker 1: t Mike helm Oscar Swan, ros paris A, Sonny Boy,
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 1: Darren Cunningham, Lib Sandra Mcwoffle Team Monaco, Thunder Cougar, Falcon, Scoop,
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 1: Heyo Hannah, Marie Andrew Langmead, Emma Tonka and Pony Soprano,
• 1:39:16
  Speaker 1: alenap Brady Malaychick Chick, Filatio Gabriela Dame, Sean Sutherland, max
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 1: A Ginger, Scoop, Chad mag Adam Moore and Inkle of Prince,
• 1:39:23
  Speaker 1: Sam Cone, b Gay, Do Crimes, l e O Dare Not,
• 1:39:26
  Speaker 1: Karen Knightley and Amy Ardvark.
• 1:39:28
  Speaker 2: And if you later this episode uncut in un edited,
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 2: and why wouldn't you and enjoy our sponsaneous side projects.
• 1:39:34
  Speaker 2: Go to patuon dot com. Slash therapy and thank you
• 1:39:36
  Speaker 2: for supporting mental health. That's all the time you get
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 2: for this week's session.
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 1: I want to think our landlords, s J and the
• 1:39:41
  Speaker 1: Ruckus Scenic Coy Pond Studios. And thanks to those of
• 1:39:43
  Speaker 1: you contributed to our show today. We really appreciate it.
• 1:39:47
  Speaker 1: But remember pop therapy isn't something that she following yourself
• 1:39:50
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• 1:39:52
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• 1:40:01
  Speaker 2: Do you want to submit a question to the show,
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 2: You can ask anonymously podtherapy dot mat email us at
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• 1:40:11
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• 1:40:12
  Speaker 3: I'm next, I'm Whitney, I'm Jim.
• 1:40:13
  Speaker 2: Thanks and we'll see you for your appointments next week.
• 1:40:19
  Speaker 1: Brought to you by the Michael Jackson Cocktail. Feeling things
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  Speaker 1: don't Michael Jackson approves, It's Milt and