Latest / CrossCurrent Podcasts / Christian Parent, Crazy World - Beyond the Mask: What Every Parent Needs to Know About Teen Suicide (w/ Emma Benoit & Jennifer Ellers) - "Best Of" Ep. 49

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Christian Parent, Crazy World - Beyond the Mask: What Every Parent Needs to Know About Teen Suicide (w/ Emma Benoit & Jennifer Ellers) - "Best Of" Ep. 49 · CrossCurrent Podcasts

0:05
Speaker 1: Welcome to Christian Parent Crazy World, the podcast that tackles
0:10
Speaker 1: tough topics to help you be a godly parent in
0:13
Speaker 1: an ungodly world. I am your host, Katherine Segers, and
0:18
Speaker 1: in today's episode, we are going to tackle a life-altering question.
0:23
Speaker 1: What if your child is struggling in ways you never see?
0:27
Speaker 1: And you don't realize how much they're hurting until it's
0:31
Speaker 1: almost too late. Today, we are talking about one of
0:35
Speaker 1: the most terrifying things a parent can imagine. That is
0:39
Speaker 1: teen suicide. Today you're going to hear the story of
0:44
Speaker 1: Emma Benoit, a vibrant, beautiful, 16-year-old varsity cheerleader whose hidden
0:51
Speaker 1: battle with anxiety led her to attempt to take her
0:55
Speaker 1: own life with a gun. Now, Emma survived something that
1:00
Speaker 1: about only 1% of people who sustain a self-inflicted gunshot
1:04
Speaker 1: wound do, but she was left paralyzed from the waist down. Today,
1:11
Speaker 1: Emma has turned that unimaginable pain into a mission to
1:15
Speaker 1: help other young people find hope and to save lives.
1:20
Speaker 1: And she's joined today by Jennifer Ehlers, who is a
1:23
Speaker 1: Christian counselor, a crisis responder, a trainer, and an author
1:28
Speaker 1: who specializes in youth suicide prevention. Together, we are going
1:33
Speaker 1: to talk about what may be happening beneath the surface
1:37
Speaker 1: of our kid's the warning signs parents need to recognize,
1:42
Speaker 1: and how we can create families and communities where struggling
1:46
Speaker 1: young people know that they don't have to suffer alone.
1:51
Speaker 1: That's the plan for this episode of Christian Parent Crazy World. Hey,
2:04
Speaker 1: moms and dads. I just want to say before we
2:08
Speaker 1: I get into this conversation today that this is a
2:11
Speaker 1: very special archive episode. It was actually one of my
2:15
Speaker 1: first and it hits very close to home for me
2:20
Speaker 1: because just a few weeks ago in our homeschool community,
2:24
Speaker 1: a young man who had been a student of mine,
2:27
Speaker 1: he was on my son's baseball team, took his own
2:31
Speaker 1: life and It honestly has just rocked our world. It's
2:37
Speaker 1: been devastating to think and know what this family is
2:40
Speaker 1: going through. And I wish, I wish that this young
2:45
Speaker 1: man could have heard the conversation you're about to hear
2:47
Speaker 1: today before he took those steps. Because this was actually
2:52
Speaker 1: one of my very first interviews ever. Prior to doing
2:56
Speaker 1: this episode with Emma Benoit and Jennifer Ehlers, I was
3:00
Speaker 1: a solo podcaster. It was just me and a mic,
3:03
Speaker 1: and I had a script. And sometimes I go back
3:07
Speaker 1: and listen to those old episodes, and I'm like, dear me,
3:12
Speaker 1: I think I've come a long way. But this request
3:17
Speaker 1: that I got in my inbox was the one that
3:20
Speaker 1: made me finally take the leap into doing interviews. Emma's
3:25
Speaker 1: story was just riveting to me. I heard her. She
3:28
Speaker 1: was on Dr. Phil and some other large media outlets.
3:32
Speaker 1: And she had a documentary coming out about her life.
3:36
Speaker 1: And so we watched that. I actually watched that with
3:38
Speaker 1: my kids. And it was pretty mesmerizing. Her story is
3:42
Speaker 1: powerful to really get behind the scenes, kind of in
3:47
Speaker 1: the mind of someone who's struggling like this. And I
3:51
Speaker 1: could relate. I've struggled with mental health issues for much
3:54
Speaker 1: of my life. I had a severe crippling, crippling anxiety
3:58
Speaker 1: and depression for 17 years. God did a lot of healing.
4:00
Speaker 1: And I talk about this in our conversation today as well.
4:04
Speaker 1: But it's also especially timely after last week's episode with Dr.
4:09
Speaker 1: Tyler Evans, where we talked about men's mental health. That
4:12
Speaker 1: is a hidden crisis in our country that nobody is
4:15
Speaker 1: really talking about because four out of every five suicides
4:19
Speaker 1: happens male. So we really need to be checking under
4:23
Speaker 1: the hood there about what's going on in men's mental
4:26
Speaker 1: health with our husbands, with our sons, with our brothers,
4:31
Speaker 1: as well as with our sisters and our daughters and
4:36
Speaker 1: our girlfriends. So I wanted to give you a few
4:39
Speaker 1: statistics before we jumped into this conversation, though, that I
4:42
Speaker 1: think are really shocking. Gen Z and Gen Alpha are
4:45
Speaker 1: definitely struggling to in their mental health. Suicide is actually
4:50
Speaker 1: the second leading cause of death among young people. And
4:55
Speaker 1: according to a 2019 study, 8.9%, almost 9% of all
5:02
Speaker 1: high school students report attempting a suicide in the previous year.
5:07
Speaker 1: That's like almost 1 in 10. Those numbers, they're staggering.
5:13
Speaker 1: And behind every number is a person whose life matters
5:16
Speaker 1: and a family whose life has changed forever. So that's
5:20
Speaker 1: why I wanted to bring this conversation back. I want
5:23
Speaker 1: you to hear firsthand Emma's story about what was happening
5:27
Speaker 1: in her mind just prior to taking a gun, aiming
5:32
Speaker 1: it at her chest and pulling the trigger. And I
5:35
Speaker 1: want you to hear what Jennifer Ehlers has to say
5:37
Speaker 1: because she really helps us to recognize the signs. She
5:41
Speaker 1: also helps us to understand how to respond to someone.
5:44
Speaker 2: Who is struggling.
5:46
Speaker 1: And also, I think this is fascinating. It's something you're
5:49
Speaker 1: probably not going to hear on a lot of other
5:51
Speaker 1: shows that talk about suicide or mental health. And that
5:55
Speaker 1: is the very real spiritual battle that is taking place
6:01
Speaker 1: underneath it all. So with that said, I want to
6:04
Speaker 1: take you to my conversation with Emma Benoit and Jennifer Ehlers. Emma, Jennifer,
6:10
Speaker 1: welcome to Christian Parent Crazy World. I'm so glad that
6:13
Speaker 1: you could join us here today.
6:15
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having us. Appreciate it.
6:18
Speaker 1: So Emma, I gathered from your documentary, which is called
6:22
Speaker 1: My Ascension, that you were battling with crippling anxiety and
6:27
Speaker 1: what eventually led you to attempt suicide.
6:30
Speaker 3: Is that correct?
6:31
Speaker 2: Yes, that's correct. As a child, I didn't understand how
6:36
Speaker 2: big my feelings were and I didn't know what to
6:38
Speaker 2: do with them. So I struggled pretty greatly with anxiety
6:42
Speaker 2: and not feeling like I had the right to struggle
6:46
Speaker 2: because externally my life was this picture perfect life that
6:50
Speaker 2: you were describing. So as a kid, you know, not
6:53
Speaker 2: having these life skills and processing skills, I felt shame
6:58
Speaker 2: for my anxiety. And as I grew up, it just
7:00
Speaker 2: continued to grow.
7:03
Speaker 1: What exactly did that look like for you? Can you
7:06
Speaker 1: describe what that felt like?
7:09
Speaker 2: So the anxiety, I remember it kind of manifested from
7:12
Speaker 2: my insecurities and my self-esteem issues. When I was a
7:16
Speaker 2: little girl in elementary school, I can remember feeling so
7:19
Speaker 2: self-conscious even to get up in front of my classmates
7:22
Speaker 2: to walk to the bathroom. I was so insecure and
7:25
Speaker 2: so self-conscious that they would be talking about me or
7:27
Speaker 2: making fun of me. And so those insecurities really created
7:31
Speaker 2: made me feel extremely anxious. And that bled into social
7:36
Speaker 2: anxiety as well, feeling so insecure that I was afraid
7:41
Speaker 2: of judgment and my peers bullying me that ultimately that
7:47
Speaker 2: anxiety kind of turned into a form of social anxiety
7:50
Speaker 2: where I was filtering what I was saying in front
7:53
Speaker 2: of my friends to make them happy and laugh. Or
7:57
Speaker 2: I was not fully being myself. I was pretending to
8:01
Speaker 2: be someone just so I could feel like I was
8:03
Speaker 2: fitting in with the group of kids that I wanted
8:05
Speaker 2: to be friends with. And so that was very heavy
8:08
Speaker 2: and hard for me to struggle with as a kid
8:10
Speaker 2: because I didn't understand what it was.
8:13
Speaker 1: So your friends didn't know and your parents didn't know either,
8:16
Speaker 1: did they?
8:17
Speaker 2: No, no one knew. And that's because I was ashamed
8:21
Speaker 2: of it. So I made sure that no one ever
8:25
Speaker 2: worried about me because I didn't want to have people
8:29
Speaker 2: in my life look at me in that light because
8:32
Speaker 2: of that stigma that I was totally believing in. I
8:35
Speaker 2: felt shame. I was like, there's no reason I have
8:39
Speaker 2: to feel anxious and insecure. You know, people tell me
8:41
Speaker 2: all the time, you're so beautiful. You know, you have
8:43
Speaker 2: a great life, just be grateful. But I never felt
8:46
Speaker 2: that way. So because of that, I felt guilty and
8:50
Speaker 2: I felt like there's no, I don't have a right
8:53
Speaker 2: to feel this way. So because of that, I protected
8:57
Speaker 2: myself from it and I put a mask up.
8:58
Speaker 1: Hmm. Jennifer, I want to ask you, so when do
9:03
Speaker 1: most kids start experiencing that kind of anxiety or depression?
9:08
Speaker 1: Is there a common age when that kind of onset occurs?
9:12
Speaker 3: Well, traditionally, it is about the age that I believe
9:17
Speaker 3: Emma really started going through difficult times, which was right
9:21
Speaker 3: around the 12 to 13 mark. When the hormones start
9:25
Speaker 3: to change, you go into adolescence, there's puberty. And by
9:28
Speaker 3: the way, hormones can really shift things and create some
9:33
Speaker 3: of the biological predisposition to things like anxiety and depression,
9:37
Speaker 3: which are then exacerbated by also the circumstances that teens
9:41
Speaker 3: are going through, because that middle school time is known
9:45
Speaker 3: to be the most difficult and challenging with regard to
9:48
Speaker 3: social situations and your peers and identity and a lot
9:51
Speaker 3: of the things that Emma was struggling with. But I
9:54
Speaker 3: do want to say what we're seeing, especially in the
9:57
Speaker 3: last 10 to 15 years, is that age is getting
10:01
Speaker 3: younger and younger. And that's something that I want to
10:05
Speaker 3: make parents aware of, because if you're sitting there with six, seven,
10:08
Speaker 3: eight year olds thinking, well, this is not relevant for
10:10
Speaker 3: a few years. I wish that was true. And when
10:13
Speaker 3: I was in graduate school and I was going through
10:16
Speaker 3: my education, that was true. But what we're seeing is
10:19
Speaker 3: a huge increase in suicidality, suicide attempts, and even tragically
10:24
Speaker 3: completed suicides in children ages six to 12. And we're
10:29
Speaker 3: also seeing an increase in that age group, children going
10:35
Speaker 3: to hospitals and to doctors with mental health related concerns
10:42
Speaker 3: in that age group. So that is something that's new.
10:46
Speaker 3: But I think so many people, even mental health professionals,
10:49
Speaker 3: but especially parents, are not aware that it can start
10:52
Speaker 3: much earlier. And this can be a risk for even
10:55
Speaker 3: younger children.
10:57
Speaker 1: You know, my my oldest daughter, I can remember at
11:00
Speaker 1: age five, panic attacks, full flown panic attacks on Sunday school.
11:05
Speaker 1: You know, we're not not even not even going to school.
11:08
Speaker 1: Sunday school, dropping her off there. And she has battled
11:12
Speaker 1: with anxiety for most of her life. And it's a
11:16
Speaker 1: battle that we're, you know, we're waging with her. But
11:19
Speaker 1: can you tell us then what signs should we be
11:22
Speaker 1: looking for as parents in those early stages?
11:26
Speaker 3: Well, it's really hard because the stages are different for, say,
11:30
Speaker 3: someone Emma's age, when that started for her teenagers, even
11:34
Speaker 3: young adults and adults, it's different than parents. younger children.
11:38
Speaker 3: But I would say to look for signs that your
11:42
Speaker 3: child is, something is different about them. So something has
11:48
Speaker 3: changed for them. We say traditionally across all age groups,
11:50
Speaker 3: look at their eating and sleeping patterns. Are they sleeping well?
11:54
Speaker 3: Are they not? How are they doing in school? How
11:56
Speaker 3: are their grades? Have you seen personality shifts or changes
12:02
Speaker 3: And so those are some of the first signs. And
12:04
Speaker 3: then also if your young person is having, I don't
12:09
Speaker 3: want to go to school for some reason, or they've
12:10
Speaker 3: been engaged in an activity that they seem to love,
12:14
Speaker 3: then all of a sudden they don't want to do
12:15
Speaker 3: it anymore. So then it's just about asking questions because
12:19
Speaker 3: maybe they literally don't want to play that sport or
12:22
Speaker 3: play that musical instrument, but maybe there is another reason.
12:25
Speaker 3: Maybe it's tied to a social situation, depression or anxiety,
12:28
Speaker 3: but the hardest part of this is is that we're
12:31
Speaker 3: looking for signs and I'm giving you some of those,
12:34
Speaker 3: but the truth is some parents won't see the signs
12:38
Speaker 3: because like Emma, a lot of kids are masking it
12:41
Speaker 3: and they're doing a really good job at pretending to
12:45
Speaker 3: be fine and specifically not just not telling their parents,
12:49
Speaker 3: but actually hiding it from friends and family. That's why
12:53
Speaker 3: it's important not just to look for signs, but to
12:55
Speaker 3: have those conversations, even if you think everything is fine.
13:00
Speaker 3: It means talking to your kids about how are things
13:03
Speaker 3: going and what do you like and what do you
13:05
Speaker 3: not like, but also even specifically, have you felt down
13:10
Speaker 3: or depressed? Have you had bad days? And then what
13:13
Speaker 3: does that look like for you? And having those conversations,
13:17
Speaker 3: do you get anxious? Do you get nervous about things?
13:20
Speaker 3: Do things upset you, keep you awake at night? Do
13:23
Speaker 3: thoughts kind of go through your head and get stuck
13:25
Speaker 3: and you're not able to get those thoughts out of
13:27
Speaker 3: your head? So having some, age appropriate, depending on the
13:31
Speaker 3: age of your child or teen, some conversations with them.
13:36
Speaker 3: In younger children, that might mean playing with toys and
13:40
Speaker 3: asking those questions. But with teenagers, having the conversations, but
13:44
Speaker 3: not in an accusatory or threatening way. Make sure that
13:47
Speaker 3: it doesn't feel punitive or that you're saying this is
13:52
Speaker 3: an expectation you have of them that they're okay. But just,
13:56
Speaker 3: you know, I know a lot of young people experience this.
13:59
Speaker 3: In fact, so many do. Can we talk about it?
14:02
Speaker 3: Because that's going to open the door. And again, making
14:07
Speaker 3: sure they know that you love them and it's okay
14:10
Speaker 3: for them to share that with you. All you want
14:12
Speaker 3: to do is help and give them support.
14:14
Speaker 2: Yeah.
14:15
Speaker 1: You know, one thing that really stuck out in the
14:17
Speaker 1: film to me is that one of the doctors, I think,
14:20
Speaker 1: said that children are good about talking about physical pain.
14:24
Speaker 1: but they are not good about talking about emotional pain.
14:27
Speaker 1: That's something that we try to mask. That's something that
14:30
Speaker 1: we feel ashamed of. I'll be doing some future podcasts
14:35
Speaker 1: on this, but I struggled with clinical anxiety and depression
14:38
Speaker 1: for 17 years and knock down, drag out. And so
14:42
Speaker 1: this one hits close to home. I did not get
14:45
Speaker 1: to the point where I seriously contemplated suicide, but there
14:49
Speaker 1: were many times I prayed to die and wanted to die.
14:53
Speaker 1: And so I understand getting to that place of desperation.
14:57
Speaker 1: So Emma, at what point in your battle with anxiety
15:03
Speaker 1: did you start thinking about ending your life?
15:13
Speaker 2: So I struggled for pretty consistently for years, all throughout
15:17
Speaker 2: middle school and really all throughout high school as well.
15:20
Speaker 2: But I would say the breaking point, kind of the
15:23
Speaker 2: spiraling moment that my thoughts really shifted from suicidal ideation,
15:30
Speaker 2: which is the type of thinking that you were describing,
15:32
Speaker 2: just not really having a plan or an idea, but
15:36
Speaker 2: just desperately not wanting to be here and thinking things like,
15:39
Speaker 2: wish I wasn't born. If I just accidentally passed away,
15:43
Speaker 2: I would be okay with it. Things like that. But really,
15:47
Speaker 2: I would say the summer before my senior year of
15:49
Speaker 2: high school, is really when those thoughts kind of transition
15:54
Speaker 2: from that type of thinking to more active suicidal type thinking.
16:00
Speaker 2: So I would say it was about two to three
16:03
Speaker 2: months that I was having those types of thoughts before
16:08
Speaker 2: I made the attempt.
16:10
Speaker 1: And it wasn't a specific event or anything that intensified?
16:17
Speaker 1: Were the events involved with it or was it just
16:19
Speaker 1: this growing? anxiety that you were feeling?
16:23
Speaker 2: So I would say it was a culmination of everything.
16:25
Speaker 2: It was a culmination of years worth of undiscussed and
16:30
Speaker 2: untouched feelings and years worth of struggling with depression and
16:35
Speaker 2: not having a set of coping skills, never feeling that
16:40
Speaker 2: like I could justify these things with anyone. All of
16:46
Speaker 2: those factors, I feel like truly led me to making
16:49
Speaker 2: that decision. But there was kind of a triggering point,
16:53
Speaker 2: if you will. A week before my attempt, I was
16:56
Speaker 2: in New York City on a trip that was for modeling.
17:00
Speaker 2: And at the time, I had begun to spiral because
17:05
Speaker 2: I decided not to try out for cheerleading. I had
17:08
Speaker 2: started working a job that I wasn't really too happy about.
17:12
Speaker 2: And just my life felt like it was not going anywhere.
17:16
Speaker 2: You know, it was the summer for my senior year.
17:18
Speaker 2: So I was... hopeful to go into college, but I
17:21
Speaker 2: didn't have any plans. So I just felt like I
17:24
Speaker 2: wasn't going anywhere with my life. And I felt like
17:27
Speaker 2: nothing is ever going to get better because my life
17:30
Speaker 2: has always looked this way. It's always been this constant
17:34
Speaker 2: challenge and a challenge that I don't feel like I
17:37
Speaker 2: could ever talk about with anyone. So I got to
17:40
Speaker 2: a point coming back from that trip that I got
17:44
Speaker 2: invited onto where I just hit rock bottom. Because being
17:48
Speaker 2: on that trip and being asked to be a part
17:50
Speaker 2: of that was such a confidence boost. And it truly
17:53
Speaker 2: did bring back a lot of my joy. And so
17:57
Speaker 2: when I had to come home from that trip, I
18:00
Speaker 2: kind of had something to compare it to. So I
18:03
Speaker 2: hit rock bottom. And honestly, there were so many things
18:07
Speaker 2: going through my head. But the biggest thing that I
18:09
Speaker 2: felt was hopelessness. And I felt like I was a burden.
18:13
Speaker 1: Hmm. I just have to ask, where were you like
18:17
Speaker 1: in your spiritual walk at this point? Were you going
18:19
Speaker 1: to church? Did you have a relationship with God at
18:23
Speaker 1: this point or was that pretty stagnant?
18:26
Speaker 2: So growing up, I never really had a relationship with God.
18:30
Speaker 2: I always thought that I was too imperfect for God
18:34
Speaker 2: to love me. I never felt like he heard me
18:36
Speaker 2: when I prayed to him. And actually, when I was
18:39
Speaker 2: a kid, I would attend church with my friends. and
18:43
Speaker 2: her family. And I loved it. As an elementary school kid,
18:47
Speaker 2: I just truly loved it. Look forward to it every Sunday.
18:50
Speaker 2: And I really love that. But the thing with my
18:58
Speaker 2: faith was I never felt like I was a part
19:01
Speaker 2: of the family. I never felt like I was a
19:04
Speaker 2: child of God, but I loved being a part of
19:07
Speaker 2: it with their family. So as I got older, I
19:11
Speaker 2: kind of just slowly changed. got further and further from,
19:14
Speaker 2: from God and, you know, not attending church, not having
19:18
Speaker 2: faith in, in my environment and my home really talked
19:22
Speaker 2: about and a big part of it. It was just
19:25
Speaker 2: not something that was a part of my life truly.
19:29
Speaker 1: So, so Jennifer, do you know if most people who
19:33
Speaker 1: contemplate suicide before attempting it, do they do that for
19:37
Speaker 1: a long period of time, short period of time? Does
19:39
Speaker 1: it just vary from person to person?
19:42
Speaker 3: Well, it does really vary from person to person, but
19:46
Speaker 3: with young people, a much higher percentage, it's impulsive. It's
19:50
Speaker 3: very impulsive. And that's one of the things that I
19:54
Speaker 3: really want parents or any caregivers to realize that most
19:59
Speaker 3: adults will take much longer to think through, plan, process
20:05
Speaker 3: before they take action. But of younger people, and that's
20:10
Speaker 3: really those under the age of 30, but particularly the
20:14
Speaker 3: younger you are, the more impulsive this can be. I
20:18
Speaker 3: believe that something like half of them have a crisis
20:22
Speaker 3: within the 24 to 48 hours prior to the attempt.
20:26
Speaker 3: And for many of them, even I think a certain percentage,
20:29
Speaker 3: I don't have those right in front of me, but
20:31
Speaker 3: I think something like around 25% literally less than five
20:36
Speaker 3: minutes had elapsed between the time that they decided they
20:41
Speaker 3: were going to take their life and actually doing it.
20:45
Speaker 3: This is from studies of those who had very much
20:48
Speaker 3: like Emma near fatal suicide attempts. They had interviewed a
20:53
Speaker 3: lot of people who had had near fatal suicide attempts
20:56
Speaker 3: that had attempted and didn't die. And many of them
21:01
Speaker 3: said it was a very impulsive decision. The other thing
21:04
Speaker 3: that's important, and I'd love for Emma to tell this
21:06
Speaker 3: about her own story, is that for those who survived,
21:11
Speaker 3: most of them had a story that literally within minutes,
21:14
Speaker 3: seconds after their attempt, they regretted it. They wish they
21:18
Speaker 3: hadn't done it. It was not something that they wanted
21:24
Speaker 3: to do, but it was more of an impulsive decision.
21:27
Speaker 3: And then they didn't really want to die. And so
21:30
Speaker 3: I think that's important for us to know because it
21:32
Speaker 3: leads to some things that we want to discuss. And
21:35
Speaker 3: that's about restricting access to lethal means during that time.
21:39
Speaker 3: Because oftentimes that period of really wanting to end your
21:43
Speaker 3: life is very short and they're not thinking clearly.
21:47
Speaker 1: You're leading to my... Very next question, actually. Yeah, I
21:52
Speaker 1: wanted to hear Emma talk about that too, because one
21:54
Speaker 1: of the doctors in the documentary, this fascinated me. He
21:57
Speaker 1: talked about how seductive, that's how he called it. He
21:59
Speaker 1: said it was how seductive the idea of suicide can
22:03
Speaker 1: be for someone. It seems like the pressure just comes
22:07
Speaker 1: in waves where it gets more and more intense. And
22:09
Speaker 1: the idea of suicide just seems like a blessed relief.
22:13
Speaker 1: And the other thing he said was that no one
22:15
Speaker 1: wants to end their life. They want to end life.
22:18
Speaker 1: the pain. And so how would you speak to that, Emma?
22:22
Speaker 1: How would you describe that seductive feeling leading up to
22:29
Speaker 1: your attempt to take your life?
22:31
Speaker 2: Oh, it's 100% accurate. I mean, like I said, I
22:34
Speaker 2: had been struggling with those types of intrusive type of
22:37
Speaker 2: thoughts about a month or two before the actual attempt happened.
22:41
Speaker 2: And when those intrusive thoughts would hit the forefront of
22:44
Speaker 2: my brain, It was like the only thing I could
22:46
Speaker 2: think about. The only thing I could see, it was
22:50
Speaker 2: the only option. And it sounded like the smartest option
22:54
Speaker 2: to me mentally in that time. But it was 100%
22:58
Speaker 2: an impulsive decision because immediately, I would even say milliseconds
23:05
Speaker 2: after it happened, I experienced instant regret. And I knew
23:09
Speaker 2: that I had just made a mistake and that I
23:11
Speaker 2: didn't want to die. And so- I have to believe
23:16
Speaker 2: that a lot of other people who make an attempt
23:20
Speaker 2: feel that same way in those initial moments after the
23:23
Speaker 2: attempt has been made, because the reality is when you
23:28
Speaker 2: have so much emotional and mental hurt and pain that
23:33
Speaker 2: you're experiencing and you don't feel like you can talk
23:36
Speaker 2: about it, you don't feel like it's ever going to
23:39
Speaker 2: get better. The best solution is, um, seems like escaping
23:45
Speaker 2: it and the escape would be death. And so death
23:50
Speaker 2: isn't really what we're after. If you're suicidal, it's this
23:55
Speaker 2: gate from the turmoil and the pain.
23:59
Speaker 1: Ending the pain. And I, I relate to that. I
24:02
Speaker 1: truly do. Um, You called it suicidal ideation. You know,
24:06
Speaker 1: I never really got to that place where I seriously
24:09
Speaker 1: contemplated it. But I would be lying if I didn't
24:12
Speaker 1: say I was there. There were times when I was
24:14
Speaker 1: driving around a corner in a car and thought, wow,
24:16
Speaker 1: it'd be nice to wrap my tree around that my
24:18
Speaker 1: car around that tree or, you know, just because I
24:21
Speaker 1: wanted to end the pain. You know, I I love
24:24
Speaker 1: that you had Kevin Hines. in your documentary. I was
24:28
Speaker 1: familiar with his story years ago. I thought it was fascinating.
24:32
Speaker 1: And he spoke to the very thing you're talking about,
24:36
Speaker 1: this seductive quality. I liken it to that ethereal lure
24:41
Speaker 1: of the sirens on the rock that we hear about
24:43
Speaker 1: the ancient sailors. They would hear these voices coming from
24:46
Speaker 1: the rocks, beckoning them to bring their ships. But if
24:49
Speaker 1: their ships went to shore, they would crash and die
24:52
Speaker 1: on these rocky shores. it's this lure towards something that
24:56
Speaker 1: seems good. And yet at the end, it's not what
24:58
Speaker 1: we really want. And Kevin talked about that because of course, uh,
25:02
Speaker 1: you know, his stories, but my listeners don't, he attempted in, uh,
25:07
Speaker 1: 2000 in the year 2000 to jump off the golden
25:10
Speaker 1: gate bridge. And just for a little context, since 1937,
25:15
Speaker 1: approximately 1800 people have ended their lives from, by jumping
25:21
Speaker 1: from the golden gate bridge. Heinz, um, Kevin Hines is
25:24
Speaker 1: one of only 35 people who has survived that jump.
25:28
Speaker 1: That's like 2%. You're 1% of people who have survived
25:33
Speaker 1: a gunshot wound. Now, Kevin said in his, I read
25:37
Speaker 1: an article about him. It's exactly what you're describing. He
25:40
Speaker 1: said he kept hearing a voice in his head saying,
25:43
Speaker 1: jump now, jump now. And he said he felt compelled to.
25:48
Speaker 1: to die. And it just alludes to that seductive quality
25:52
Speaker 1: of suicide that we've been talking about. But he also
25:55
Speaker 1: said the moment, the very moment his fingers left the railing,
25:59
Speaker 1: he felt an instant regret. He said, I thought it
26:03
Speaker 1: was too late. I said to myself, what have I done?
26:05
Speaker 1: I don't want to die. And he realized at that point,
26:09
Speaker 1: he said that he made the greatest mistake of his life.
26:15
Speaker 1: And you said something similar right after I recall in
26:19
Speaker 1: the documentary, what did you say right afterwards? Your mother,
26:22
Speaker 1: describe what happened in that scene.
26:24
Speaker 2: Yes. So my mom, actually, I was on the phone
26:27
Speaker 2: with her before the attempt happened. And kind of like
26:30
Speaker 2: we were talking about with teenagers, there's oftentimes that moment
26:33
Speaker 2: of crisis. And my moment of crisis was comparing the
26:38
Speaker 2: way I felt in New York to the way I
26:40
Speaker 2: felt back at home. And I had a panic attack.
26:43
Speaker 2: My first ever fully fledged panic attack ensued. And I
26:47
Speaker 2: picked up the phone, called my mom because I was confused,
26:50
Speaker 2: lost and hopeless. And so I called my mom and
26:53
Speaker 2: I was attempting to talk to her and try to
26:57
Speaker 2: explain to her these things that I had been dealing with.
27:00
Speaker 2: And in the midst of our conversation, I felt an
27:04
Speaker 2: immense feeling to just end it. And I felt like,
27:08
Speaker 2: what is the point of trying? You're burdening your mom.
27:11
Speaker 2: She doesn't need to deal with this right now. Um,
27:14
Speaker 2: and you're, you're just a problem child. Um, and that's
27:18
Speaker 2: what I was telling myself amidst all of the other
27:20
Speaker 2: racing thoughts that I had. But what happened was my
27:25
Speaker 2: mom had to put me on hold and she placed
27:27
Speaker 2: me on hold. And then immediately that thought just, it
27:32
Speaker 2: was like, it couldn't.
27:33
Speaker 3: Get rid of it.
27:34
Speaker 2: Um, and being, you know, 16, having an under underdeveloped mind, um,
27:40
Speaker 2: and not having any clue, um, I just impulsively acted
27:44
Speaker 2: on it.
27:47
Speaker 1: And then what happened immediately afterwards then?
27:51
Speaker 2: So immediately after I pulled the trigger, my mom actually
27:54
Speaker 2: came back on the other end of the phone because
27:57
Speaker 2: like I said, she had placed me on hold and
27:59
Speaker 2: she got back on the line. And obviously I was non-responsive.
28:03
Speaker 2: And she said that she just had a really bad feeling,
28:08
Speaker 2: a really bad gut feeling. She calls it mother's intuition and,
28:12
Speaker 2: or a sign from God. But she just said that
28:15
Speaker 2: she knew something royally bad had happened. And so she
28:18
Speaker 2: just decided to leave work and come home. And fortunately,
28:24
Speaker 2: she found me immediately as when she got home and
28:28
Speaker 2: was able to get the first responders on the way
28:31
Speaker 2: and really just play a part in saving my life.
28:36
Speaker 2: I think, honestly, it was a culmination of every person
28:41
Speaker 2: responding at a quick pace. But certainly the only thing
28:45
Speaker 2: to attribute my second chance to is the sheer and
28:50
Speaker 2: utter grace of God. That is truly the only way
28:53
Speaker 2: to describe it because I am in that 1%. And,
28:57
Speaker 2: you know, people don't survive gunshot wounds to the chest.
29:02
Speaker 2: They don't survive things that I had that I survived.
29:06
Speaker 2: So there's no other way to describe it other than
29:10
Speaker 2: a sheer miracle.
29:18
Speaker 1: Hey friends, it's Katherine here. If you're trying to be
29:21
Speaker 1: a godly parent in this wild and wacky world, you need.
29:24
Speaker 4: All the help you can get.
29:26
Speaker 1: And I've got you covered. When you subscribe to my website,
29:29
Speaker 1: you'll get instant access to tons of free resources made
29:33
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29:49
Speaker 1: the culture spreads to mothers. Plus, powerful scripture lists to
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29:55
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29:59
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30:09
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30:15
Speaker 1: Christian parenting may be crazy, but you don't have to
30:18
Speaker 1: do it alone. No doubt.
30:23
Speaker 2: No doubt.
30:23
Speaker 1: You know, I'm reminded of... Isaiah chapter 61, verse 3,
30:28
Speaker 1: it talks about there being a spirit of despair. Some
30:31
Speaker 1: versions of scripture call it a spirit of heaviness. And
30:34
Speaker 1: what I see in the instances that I've encountered suicide
30:40
Speaker 1: throughout my life and other families, it seems like this,
30:45
Speaker 1: we talk about the physical aspects of what people go through,
30:49
Speaker 1: and that's certainly a part of it. But there is
30:51
Speaker 1: a very spiritual battle in play here.
30:54
Speaker 2: As well.
30:55
Speaker 1: And, and when you're describing it to me, you're describing
30:59
Speaker 1: the seductive quality to it. And Kevin, the same thing,
31:02
Speaker 1: the same exact thing. And then the instant, the instant
31:05
Speaker 1: you commit to the act, oh, it relieves the pressure. And,
31:10
Speaker 1: and you realize that it, that we're not just physical beings.
31:16
Speaker 1: It's not just a physical battle. There's a very physical
31:19
Speaker 1: component to it, no doubt about it. There's brain chemistry
31:22
Speaker 1: involved that makes some people more susceptible.
31:27
Speaker 3: But there's a.
31:27
Speaker 1: Spiritual battle going on here. And honestly, it just makes
31:33
Speaker 1: me so angry at the enemy that he twists and
31:36
Speaker 1: contorts and lures and tempts and suggests that this This
31:40
Speaker 1: action is what is going to relieve you. And yet
31:43
Speaker 1: it's not what you want. And so I praise God.
31:46
Speaker 1: I praise God that you're still here with us today
31:49
Speaker 1: to tell your story. You know, I'm reminded of David
31:53
Speaker 1: throughout the Psalms. He was clearly, clearly a very depressed man.
31:58
Speaker 1: So I would like to talk to that aspect a
32:01
Speaker 1: bit about it just a little bit. Jennifer, could you
32:03
Speaker 1: talk to that? My frustration that I felt suffering from
32:07
Speaker 1: clinical depression and anxiety for nearly 20 years is that
32:12
Speaker 1: the doctors would want to treat all the physical aspects
32:16
Speaker 1: of it and ignore the spiritual. And yeah, I actually
32:19
Speaker 1: had one doctor say, well, if you don't want to
32:21
Speaker 1: take this medicine, I can't help you. And the medicine
32:23
Speaker 1: wasn't working. And I'm like, it's not working. And I'm
32:27
Speaker 1: all for medicine. I don't have a problem with that,
32:28
Speaker 1: but it wasn't working. And then you get in Christian
32:30
Speaker 1: circles and they tell you the opposite. The Christian circles
32:33
Speaker 1: will tell you, oh, we can just pray it away
32:35
Speaker 1: and you just need to have more faith. And they
32:37
Speaker 1: ignore the physical aspects to it. Can you speak to
32:40
Speaker 1: that frustration a bit? Because I know I felt it
32:43
Speaker 1: battling anxiety and depression for so long.
32:46
Speaker 3: Absolutely. And it's so confusing for people, especially Christians. What
32:51
Speaker 3: do I do? Because they're getting maybe one message here
32:54
Speaker 3: and another message there. And first of all, let me
32:56
Speaker 3: just say, I'm so sorry that a doctor would say,
32:58
Speaker 3: I can't help you if you won't take this pill.
33:01
Speaker 3: So let me say the things that we're talking about, depression, anxiety,
33:06
Speaker 3: and definitely the problem of suicidality that can go with
33:11
Speaker 3: both of those or any other mental health problem is
33:15
Speaker 3: not just a mind problem. or a spirit issue. It's
33:19
Speaker 3: a mind, body, spirit issue. All of them are, by
33:21
Speaker 3: the way, we are all whole beings. God created us
33:25
Speaker 3: to be mind, body, spirit. And if you leave out
33:28
Speaker 3: any one aspect of that, then you're not treating the
33:31
Speaker 3: whole person. And so the best approach is really to
33:36
Speaker 3: approach all three. For many people, there is a biological
33:41
Speaker 3: component to depression or anxiety. But that's not all there is.
33:46
Speaker 3: And there are people who struggle terribly with depression or
33:49
Speaker 3: anxiety that it's really not biological. And the things that
33:54
Speaker 3: we have thought in the mental health field for years
33:57
Speaker 3: that depression is really serotonin-based, we're starting to question that
34:00
Speaker 3: because some of the new studies are showing, oh, maybe
34:03
Speaker 3: we can't really verify the link that we thought was
34:06
Speaker 3: there to certain neurotransmitters. And so what we know is
34:10
Speaker 3: that it can look different for every person. But what
34:13
Speaker 3: we know is that for every person, there are some
34:16
Speaker 3: physical aspects. So you need to address the physical. And
34:21
Speaker 3: as a Christian counselor, the first thing I do with
34:23
Speaker 3: any client is I want you to go to your doctor,
34:26
Speaker 3: your family physician, your internal medicine doctor and get a
34:29
Speaker 3: full physical workup and a blood panel because there's so
34:31
Speaker 3: many things that can influence that. But you've got to
34:35
Speaker 3: talk about counseling and you do have to talk about
34:38
Speaker 3: the spiritual because Like we've just been talking about, I'm convinced,
34:41
Speaker 3: like you, that while there is a mental health explanation
34:44
Speaker 3: for depression, anxiety, and suicide, When it comes to that
34:47
Speaker 3: point of actually attempting suicide or ending your life, you
34:51
Speaker 3: won't convince me that there's not a spiritual component as
34:54
Speaker 3: well and that there's warfare. And that voice that Kevin heard,
34:59
Speaker 3: that seduction power you're talking about, I absolutely believe it's
35:02
Speaker 3: Satan who wants more than anything for people to end
35:07
Speaker 3: their lives. I do think that is that seductive piece
35:11
Speaker 3: of that. So I think it's approaching it from body, mind,
35:13
Speaker 3: and spirit, but also then really respecting that individual and
35:19
Speaker 3: where they're coming from emotionally, spiritually, physically, and working with
35:23
Speaker 3: them to attack what's going on with their mental health
35:28
Speaker 3: on all fronts. And so I think there is a
35:31
Speaker 3: component and the best approach is to treat the whole person.
35:36
Speaker 3: That means look at the medical things. And for some
35:39
Speaker 3: people that will maybe mean trying some medication, but Let
35:44
Speaker 3: me just also mention, and I say this a lot
35:47
Speaker 3: when I speak about depression, this is across age groups,
35:50
Speaker 3: that most research studies show that physical exercise, physical activity,
35:57
Speaker 3: moderate physical exercise three to four times a week is
36:01
Speaker 3: as effective or more effective in clinical studies at treating
36:05
Speaker 3: depression than antidepressant medication. So The medicine is not the
36:10
Speaker 3: only answer. Now, for some people, they may need that.
36:13
Speaker 3: And like you said, for some people, it really works.
36:16
Speaker 3: And I don't want people to just assume that that's
36:19
Speaker 3: not helpful or that they shouldn't listen to a doctor
36:22
Speaker 3: and maybe try it. But I've had a lot of
36:24
Speaker 3: clients who tried antidepressants and like you, they didn't work.
36:28
Speaker 3: Anxiety is even harder to medicate because Some of the
36:32
Speaker 3: anti-anxiety medications also have a really powerful addictive quality that
36:37
Speaker 3: we don't want people, especially young people, to have. So
36:42
Speaker 3: we do have to be willing to explore other things.
36:45
Speaker 3: But diet, exercise, prayer, definitely counseling, and then other approaches,
36:52
Speaker 3: other lifestyle approaches. And let me just mention one thing.
36:55
Speaker 3: I don't want to get ahead of things here, but
36:58
Speaker 3: what we also know contributes for younger people. is the
37:02
Speaker 3: amount of screen time that they are, the amount of
37:06
Speaker 3: time that they're on social media, Facebook, Instagram, their phones
37:10
Speaker 3: on screens, the higher the screen time, it really correlates
37:15
Speaker 3: with higher levels of depression and anxiety. And so that's
37:19
Speaker 3: another thing, a lifestyle intervention is can we start to
37:23
Speaker 3: limit the amount of screen time for ourselves? And this is,
37:27
Speaker 3: by the way, across age groups, not just young people,
37:29
Speaker 3: but help young people. find other things that they can
37:33
Speaker 3: participate in and limit that amount of screen time. Because
37:37
Speaker 3: I know it's a factor. We're not going to lump
37:39
Speaker 3: everything on social media because it's multi-factors. There are many,
37:46
Speaker 3: but there are so many things that contribute that we
37:50
Speaker 3: need to be looking at all of those.
37:52
Speaker 2: Yes.
37:53
Speaker 1: I love the way you put that. Thank you so much. Yeah. I,
37:57
Speaker 1: I got so frustrated in my journey, like I said, and, and,
38:00
Speaker 1: you know, medications did help for a bit, but I,
38:04
Speaker 1: I had what, you know, I was back in the
38:05
Speaker 1: Prozac day and, you know, they had Prozac burnout and
38:09
Speaker 1: it just stopped working. And, and that frustration, and you're
38:15
Speaker 1: so right. I finally did get into a good exercise
38:18
Speaker 1: regime that helped so much. Diet helped a lot. Cognitive
38:23
Speaker 1: behavioral therapy. I did that for a while for anxiety.
38:26
Speaker 1: That was helpful. But honestly, there were some deep spiritual
38:29
Speaker 1: wounds that the Lord healed me of that it was
38:32
Speaker 1: kind of a cesspool deep inside of me. And when
38:34
Speaker 1: that cesspool got cleaned out, didn't fix all the brain chemistry,
38:38
Speaker 1: but it fixed what the brain chemistry was feeding on
38:42
Speaker 1: for me. That was my journey. And when I praise God,
38:46
Speaker 1: I can say this. I was on medication for 17
38:48
Speaker 1: years when God cleaned that out and I allowed him to,
38:52
Speaker 1: he had been, you know, kind of pressing me to
38:54
Speaker 1: do that for a long time. When he cleaned that out,
38:57
Speaker 1: I was able to go off and manage without it.
39:00
Speaker 1: Not that I don't still have issues sometimes, but I'm,
39:03
Speaker 1: I'm doing well. So I know that there's hope. And here's,
39:06
Speaker 1: here's what I know. God has a plan to deliver everyone.
39:09
Speaker 1: He does. He has a plan. We have to submit
39:12
Speaker 1: to his prescription, whatever that means, though. So let's talk
39:16
Speaker 1: about then some of those proactive things. You've already mentioned
39:18
Speaker 1: some of them, Jennifer. Let's talk to Emma for just
39:20
Speaker 1: a few minutes about what would you say to another
39:24
Speaker 1: young young person another teenager or young adult who might
39:27
Speaker 1: be thinking about committing suicide what would you tell them.
39:34
Speaker 2: It's not over yet do not let go just yet
39:38
Speaker 2: it's not over yet it's okay to feel that way
39:43
Speaker 2: there's nothing wrong with you because you want to die
39:46
Speaker 2: I know if someone would have told me that it
39:48
Speaker 2: really I feel like would have made a huge difference.
39:53
Speaker 2: I carried so much shame behind my thoughts and my feelings.
39:57
Speaker 2: And I want young people to know if you're there,
40:00
Speaker 2: if you're in that place, it's okay, but it's not
40:04
Speaker 2: the end. And you can get through this. You absolutely
40:07
Speaker 2: have every ability and tool to get through this. You
40:12
Speaker 2: just have to reach out for help. You just have
40:15
Speaker 2: to lean into hope. even though it might not feel
40:18
Speaker 2: like there's anything to be hopeful for, or there's nothing
40:20
Speaker 2: to look forward to, or like you're permanently stuck like this,
40:24
Speaker 2: I promise you, it gets better. Just hang in there.
40:28
Speaker 2: It gets better. And hope is so real. I'm so
40:33
Speaker 2: glad that I finally can see that hope is real.
40:36
Speaker 2: Even whenever I'm having a rough patch or in a
40:40
Speaker 2: moment of despair, I still have hope because I know
40:43
Speaker 2: that it's better. So I want every young person to
40:46
Speaker 2: know that it's not over yet and it gets better.
40:50
Speaker 1: What would you say is the single most important thing
40:53
Speaker 1: that has helped on your road to recovery?
40:57
Speaker 2: The best piece of advice that I heard when I
41:00
Speaker 2: was going through therapy after the attempt was it's okay
41:05
Speaker 2: not to know where you're going. It's okay not to
41:08
Speaker 2: have it all figured out. Kids put so much pressure
41:11
Speaker 2: on themselves, especially in our modern day society where Everything
41:16
Speaker 2: is instant gratification, instant this, instant that, you know, success
41:20
Speaker 2: is like the best thing to a kid. You know, this,
41:24
Speaker 2: it's this image of, you know, stress-free life. And there's
41:28
Speaker 2: so much pressure on our youth today. And so I
41:31
Speaker 2: want kids to know, take off that pressure. It's okay
41:35
Speaker 2: not to know what you want to do with the
41:37
Speaker 2: rest of your life. It's okay not to know what
41:39
Speaker 2: things you truly have a passion for. It's okay. You
41:42
Speaker 2: have time. give yourself grace and give yourself the space
41:48
Speaker 2: to just grow, like grow with life. That would be,
41:53
Speaker 2: that was the best advice that I heard because it,
41:57
Speaker 2: it really just spoke to me. You know, I had
42:00
Speaker 2: never heard a piece of advice address directly to the
42:05
Speaker 2: thing that like always constantly plagued me and bothered me.
42:09
Speaker 2: So when I heard that when I was 16, 17,
42:13
Speaker 2: It really made a difference. So I hope that by
42:15
Speaker 2: hearing that it can help young people to know that,
42:19
Speaker 2: you know, you have time. Just give yourself space and
42:22
Speaker 2: grace and it's OK.
42:26
Speaker 1: So, Jennifer, you talked earlier a little bit about some
42:29
Speaker 1: of the things we might see in younger children. Are
42:33
Speaker 1: those the same kind of signs we would see in
42:35
Speaker 1: older children today? that might be contemplating suicide or does
42:39
Speaker 1: that look different in a, in a child that was
42:42
Speaker 1: Emma's age?
42:44
Speaker 3: Yeah, it can look different certainly with teens, but what
42:47
Speaker 3: we see some additional things that can be some of
42:49
Speaker 3: those things, but also withdrawal from family and friends. And
42:55
Speaker 3: then also, so starting at that age, maybe some issues
43:00
Speaker 3: with substance abuse, substance use or abuse and, as well
43:05
Speaker 3: as one of the big caveats is maybe any kind
43:07
Speaker 3: of self-harm. If you've heard of cutting or non-suicidal self-injury,
43:12
Speaker 3: those are all some signs, mostly that we see in
43:14
Speaker 3: older kids, older teens or young adults, in addition to
43:19
Speaker 3: those same things that we saw in younger kids. But
43:22
Speaker 3: let me also mention something that I just think is critical,
43:26
Speaker 3: and we've sort of all danced around it, and that
43:28
Speaker 3: is being able to talk about feelings and emotions. And
43:34
Speaker 3: we hear a lot in certainly in mental health fields,
43:38
Speaker 3: this term of emotional intelligence. And what that really means
43:43
Speaker 3: is from a young age, from little kids, we need
43:47
Speaker 3: to encourage them to talk about their feelings, be able
43:50
Speaker 3: to identify the feelings they're feeling, and then put language
43:55
Speaker 3: to it and normalize it. When I'm sad, when I'm angry,
43:59
Speaker 3: and then as they get older, maybe more nuanced emotions,
44:03
Speaker 3: like I'm feeling anxious or I'm feeling like a failure
44:07
Speaker 3: or I'm having all this anxiety about not being the
44:10
Speaker 3: level of success.
44:11
Speaker 2: I need to be.
44:12
Speaker 3: And unfortunately, I think as a society, we don't normalize
44:16
Speaker 3: feelings the way we should. The truth is every person
44:20
Speaker 3: of every age has feelings, both positive and negative. There
44:24
Speaker 3: are times when we feel sad or scared or upset
44:28
Speaker 3: or depressed or anxious. But it's how we're able to
44:31
Speaker 3: then talk about that openly and honestly, have that normalized
44:35
Speaker 3: and validated. But then also something that Emma mentioned is
44:39
Speaker 3: help teach young people of all ages. What are the
44:43
Speaker 3: healthy ways to cope when we have those feelings? How
44:47
Speaker 3: do we comfort or soothe ourselves in ways that are
44:50
Speaker 3: healthy versus unhealthy so that people don't have to mask them,
44:54
Speaker 3: but we know the things that we can do that
44:57
Speaker 3: then can help us feel better, but we also don't
45:01
Speaker 3: feel alone, isolated, or the shame and stigma of having
45:05
Speaker 3: those sad feelings because guess what? We all do. Everybody does.
45:10
Speaker 3: And to sort of this image that we have of
45:13
Speaker 3: picture-perfect lives of people that are always happy and joyful,
45:17
Speaker 3: that is unrealistic across the board. Let's just be honest.
45:21
Speaker 3: That's not real. That's not real in churches. That's not
45:23
Speaker 3: real in our families. That's just not real. And we
45:27
Speaker 3: are doing a very poor job, I believe, across all
45:31
Speaker 3: levels in society of teaching people how to cope with
45:34
Speaker 3: those bad, sad feelings and anxiety. Come on, with the
45:39
Speaker 3: world we're living in, we all, even those of us
45:42
Speaker 3: who have great faith in Jesus, we have moments where
45:45
Speaker 3: we're going, I'm scared. This is looking pretty dark out
45:49
Speaker 3: there or things are pretty rough. Look at the economy
45:52
Speaker 3: or look at all the violence and you.
45:54
Speaker 2: Know, it's okay.
45:55
Speaker 3: It's okay to have those feelings and also know then
45:58
Speaker 3: what to do with it. The things that we do,
46:01
Speaker 3: talk to other people, pray, read scripture, listen to music,
46:06
Speaker 3: do things with others in our life, get engaged in
46:09
Speaker 3: having real relationships with people that make us feel safe
46:14
Speaker 3: and better and are able to really listen to what
46:17
Speaker 3: we're going through and support us through that.
46:20
Speaker 4: Yeah.
46:20
Speaker 1: You know, I think a large part of the problem,
46:22
Speaker 1: and Emma, grew up in a different world than I
46:27
Speaker 1: did and you did. We don't have these picture perfect lives,
46:32
Speaker 1: but according to Instagram and Facebook, we do. So it
46:35
Speaker 1: looks that way on the outside. So it's easy. It's
46:38
Speaker 1: a lot easier, I think, for a child in this
46:40
Speaker 1: generation to say, well, that's not how I feel on
46:43
Speaker 1: the inside because that's look what everybody else's life looks like.
46:47
Speaker 1: But none of their lives are like that. It's just
46:50
Speaker 1: a facade. It's just a veneer. And I love you
46:53
Speaker 1: keep anticipating exactly where I'm going, Jennifer. We're on the
46:56
Speaker 1: same wavelength. My next question, which I think you just answered,
47:00
Speaker 1: was how to get our kids to open up emotionally.
47:03
Speaker 1: Because it's like you said, we aren't talking about our feelings.
47:06
Speaker 1: So I think you just spoke to that. But what
47:09
Speaker 1: should we do then as parents when we see, okay,
47:13
Speaker 1: this child really is struggling. This child is in trouble.
47:17
Speaker 1: What steps should we take when we know we've got
47:20
Speaker 1: a child who maybe contemplating suicide.
47:32
Speaker 3: Well, and it depends on if you just say they're
47:35
Speaker 3: struggling or they're contemplating suicide. And I do want to
47:38
Speaker 3: go to Emma's story next because I think it is
47:41
Speaker 3: important for her to speak to this. But if you
47:44
Speaker 3: just know that your child is struggling, then you want
47:47
Speaker 3: to talk to them about it. Again, in a way
47:49
Speaker 3: that's not shaming or accusatory, but bring it up to
47:52
Speaker 3: them in a way that says, I love you and
47:54
Speaker 3: I want to help in any way I can. Let's
47:57
Speaker 3: talk about this and then get them help in a
48:01
Speaker 3: way that feels safe to them. And that can honestly
48:06
Speaker 3: so much can be accomplished just by acknowledging and validating
48:11
Speaker 3: their feelings and saying, I'm going to help you with it.
48:14
Speaker 3: And we are going to approach this together. But if
48:17
Speaker 3: the the young person is actually suicidal, then you have
48:21
Speaker 3: to sort of, if there's a threat of imminent harm,
48:25
Speaker 3: if the young person is suicidal, then there's some other
48:27
Speaker 3: steps to take. You definitely want to consult a mental
48:29
Speaker 3: health professional right away and get that person, that young person,
48:34
Speaker 3: no matter what age, in to see a counselor. You
48:37
Speaker 3: may want to make sure then that they are physically
48:41
Speaker 3: safe by taking lethal means that might be available in
48:46
Speaker 3: the home and out of the home. If there are guns,
48:49
Speaker 3: get them locked up or out of the home, preferably.
48:51
Speaker 3: If there's any medication that they could use to harm themselves,
48:55
Speaker 3: making sure that is taken away. And then just putting
49:00
Speaker 3: some safety protocols around them if there's imminent threat. And
49:03
Speaker 3: by the way, there are suicide hotlines I'm sure you're
49:05
Speaker 3: going to have information on. And now there are ways
49:10
Speaker 3: that you can text and just easy ways for young
49:15
Speaker 3: people to access 24 seven suicide crisis lines, if that's
49:20
Speaker 3: an imminent threat. So again, it depends on how much
49:24
Speaker 3: of a crisis this is, but I would love for
49:26
Speaker 3: Emma to speak to that because I know that, you know,
49:29
Speaker 3: in retrospect, she has a lot to say on what
49:33
Speaker 3: would have made a difference maybe for her at different
49:36
Speaker 3: points in her journey.
49:38
Speaker 2: Well, I think everything that you were just mentioning a
49:41
Speaker 2: minute ago, Jennifer, could have been things that could have
49:45
Speaker 2: been positive factors that may have made my story look
49:48
Speaker 2: a little different. So growing up, mental health was completely stigmatized.
49:53
Speaker 2: I grew up in an environment that you don't talk
49:56
Speaker 2: about your feelings and you don't really feel your feelings even.
50:00
Speaker 2: You get rid of them or you suppress them or
50:03
Speaker 2: you compartmentalize them to keep going and moving forward with
50:07
Speaker 2: your life. because your busy life is the priority, not
50:11
Speaker 2: your feelings or what you're thinking. So that's kind of
50:15
Speaker 2: the reality that I grew up in. So naturally, as
50:18
Speaker 2: I got older, talking about my feelings, talking about the
50:22
Speaker 2: way things affected me emotionally and mentally was so foreign,
50:26
Speaker 2: and it was so uncomfortable. So I never did. And
50:30
Speaker 2: I certainly didn't want people to view me as someone
50:35
Speaker 2: who was damaged or someone who struggled mentally or emotionally
50:40
Speaker 2: because of that stigma. Because I grew up thinking that
50:44
Speaker 2: only certain types of people deal with these types of issues.
50:49
Speaker 2: And I'm not one of those types of people. I
50:51
Speaker 2: grew up thinking that suicide is not a part of
50:53
Speaker 2: my family. It's just not in our family. And so
50:57
Speaker 2: I grew up very naive to all of these real
50:59
Speaker 2: realities when it I feel like had the environment been
51:06
Speaker 2: a little bit different for me growing up, had there
51:09
Speaker 2: been more conversations when I got home from school that
51:12
Speaker 2: looked like, how was your mental health today? Did you
51:15
Speaker 2: have any big feelings that you want to talk about
51:17
Speaker 2: as opposed to what did you learn? How was school?
51:21
Speaker 2: Because like we've been talking about, young people are smart.
51:24
Speaker 2: They know what they can tell their parent just to
51:27
Speaker 2: get them to stop bothering them. And so I went
51:31
Speaker 2: through those motions, you know, and say, oh, it was fine.
51:33
Speaker 2: It's fine. Because A, I didn't want to talk about
51:36
Speaker 2: it because I didn't know how. And B, I didn't
51:38
Speaker 2: think anyone would care or listen to acknowledge it and
51:42
Speaker 2: validate it. So I think having just the environment be
51:47
Speaker 2: completely different and recognizing that mental health and suicide doesn't
51:53
Speaker 2: have a face, a race, a class, a gender identity.
51:57
Speaker 2: It just doesn't. A faith base, it doesn't. It's a
52:00
Speaker 2: human thing that human beings go through and experience. I
52:05
Speaker 2: think really would have made a difference just overall humanizing
52:09
Speaker 2: humans again and teaching myself and my brother that, you know,
52:14
Speaker 2: feelings are valid and no feeling is something that needs
52:19
Speaker 2: to be ignored. It could have been helpful. And also
52:23
Speaker 2: I want to make this statement because I truly think
52:27
Speaker 2: that had the environment been like that when I was
52:31
Speaker 2: growing up, then I think that if someone would have
52:34
Speaker 2: asked me, are you having thoughts of suicide? Have you
52:38
Speaker 2: ever had a thought of harming yourself? Um, that I
52:41
Speaker 2: would have certainly opened up about it. Um, because ultimately
52:46
Speaker 2: that was such a scary thing for me in the
52:49
Speaker 2: moment when I was having those types of thoughts, um,
52:52
Speaker 2: that if someone would have approached me and said, Hey,
52:55
Speaker 2: you know, what's going on? Are you, you know, just
52:58
Speaker 2: ask me the question, are you having thoughts of suicide?
53:02
Speaker 2: it would have made it 10 times more real. And
53:05
Speaker 2: I think it would have prevented me from making the decision.
53:08
Speaker 1: Wow. Just asking you point blank like that.
53:11
Speaker 3: Yeah.
53:12
Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting when I got the trailer for
53:14
Speaker 1: my Ascension in my mailbox and you know, we've got
53:17
Speaker 1: five kids, we homeschool, we're crazy busy. And let me
53:21
Speaker 1: just speak very quickly. One of the things we've done
53:23
Speaker 1: with a couple of my kids that one of them
53:26
Speaker 1: struggles with anxiety and my kids have some, you know,
53:29
Speaker 1: ADHD things. And They were asking for help. And so
53:32
Speaker 1: it took a long time. It was very hard to
53:34
Speaker 1: search out and find someone that are in better insurance
53:38
Speaker 1: even covered it. And so we've been able to find
53:41
Speaker 1: some places where they can go and get counseling for anxiety,
53:44
Speaker 1: get some learning strategies for the areas where they're struggling.
53:48
Speaker 1: So I would encourage parents to do that too, to
53:50
Speaker 1: check into what your insurance may offer in terms of counseling,
53:54
Speaker 1: Christian counseling even, we were able to find. So that's
53:57
Speaker 1: a good choice. But my daughter who struggles with anxiety
54:00
Speaker 1: after I got the trailer and watched that, I'm like,
54:05
Speaker 1: we need to have a talk. Again, we do talk,
54:07
Speaker 1: but it had been a little while, we're busy. And
54:11
Speaker 1: I went up in her room and I sat down.
54:13
Speaker 1: I'm like, how are you doing? how's it going? How's
54:16
Speaker 1: the anxiety? And I did ask her point blank, kind
54:20
Speaker 1: of like you suggested, have you ever thought about harming yourself?
54:24
Speaker 2: She's like, what do you mean?
54:25
Speaker 3: Like cutting?
54:25
Speaker 1: And I'm like, well, yeah. Have you ever thought about that?
54:27
Speaker 1: And she's like, I've thought about it. And I'm like, well,
54:29
Speaker 1: have you ever thought about doing something more permanent? And
54:33
Speaker 1: she told me, she's like, mom, no, I, you know,
54:36
Speaker 1: there've been times when I've felt despair. I haven't wanted
54:40
Speaker 1: to live, but I, you know, because of the anxiety
54:42
Speaker 1: being so bad, but she hasn't thought about doing that.
54:45
Speaker 1: But that was a good conversation to have. And I'm like, look,
54:49
Speaker 1: if you do have those feelings or thoughts, you're not alone.
54:54
Speaker 1: I felt them. Many people have felt them. And we
54:57
Speaker 1: sat down and we watched the film together and talked
54:59
Speaker 1: about it. So I think it's a very good thing.
55:03
Speaker 1: I've talked about it with several of my kids. Is
55:05
Speaker 1: this something you have thought about? And I think what
55:09
Speaker 1: I'm hearing you say, one of the things that would
55:11
Speaker 1: help a lot is knowing Other people feel this way.
55:17
Speaker 1: Other people have thought these thoughts. Other people have battled
55:20
Speaker 1: through them. They have gained victory. And they are not
55:24
Speaker 1: in that hopeless place forever. So before we end today,
55:29
Speaker 1: I know my audience is going to want to know,
55:31
Speaker 1: how are you doing now, Emma? Can you tell us
55:33
Speaker 1: a little bit about your physical recovery? Yeah.
55:36
Speaker 2: So now physically, I am able to walk on my walker.
55:42
Speaker 2: I have regained about 80% of my abilities since going
55:46
Speaker 2: into the hospital, which when I was brought to the hospital,
55:49
Speaker 2: I was paralyzed from the neck down. And so I've
55:53
Speaker 2: regained 80% of my abilities and I have full sensation
55:57
Speaker 2: throughout my entire body. And yeah, I have just made
56:02
Speaker 2: so much progress in my recovery journey physically. And that too,
56:05
Speaker 2: I can only attest and attribute to God himself because
56:09
Speaker 2: the leaps and bounds that I've had to, you know,
56:11
Speaker 2: overcome have truly been just a testament of his faithfulness
56:15
Speaker 2: in my life.
56:16
Speaker 3: Life.
56:16
Speaker 2: And I can drive normally without any adaptations to my vehicle,
56:21
Speaker 2: which was a huge stepping stone and goal for me.
56:25
Speaker 2: And I live independently. So it's just been truly an
56:29
Speaker 2: amazing journey and one that I can look back and
56:32
Speaker 2: reflect on and just see God's hands all up in it.
56:36
Speaker 2: So yeah, and I'm doing great now. I share my
56:40
Speaker 2: story with so much gratitude in my heart and I
56:45
Speaker 2: have so much Much hope for the future. I truly do.
56:47
Speaker 2: And I feel each and every day more and more
56:51
Speaker 2: blessed to not only still be here, but to have
56:56
Speaker 2: such a strong passion and something I truly feel is
56:59
Speaker 2: a calling. So I'm doing really well and I'm super
57:03
Speaker 2: happy and grateful.
57:05
Speaker 1: I remember at one point in the film, it was
57:07
Speaker 1: one of the, I think, most dramatic points of the film.
57:10
Speaker 1: You said you asked God why he was doing this
57:12
Speaker 1: to you. Can you just tell his response to you very,
57:16
Speaker 1: very quickly?
57:17
Speaker 2: Yeah. I was in a mess of a situation on
57:22
Speaker 2: one day in the hospital. And I just remember shouting
57:25
Speaker 2: up to God and just saying, why are you doing
57:27
Speaker 2: this to me? You know, I just wanted to escape
57:31
Speaker 2: the stress and the pain and you've just added more.
57:34
Speaker 2: I'm glad you kept me here, but why did you
57:36
Speaker 2: leave me like this? You know, why did you leave
57:39
Speaker 2: me with this broken body? And he said, well, I'm
57:43
Speaker 2: not punishing you. I'm rewarding you be patient. And those
57:48
Speaker 2: words stuck with me so hard. And, um, actually after
57:55
Speaker 2: that experience and that encounter is when I decided to
57:58
Speaker 2: just dive into my faith and really lean into it.
58:02
Speaker 2: And so, yeah. Hmm.
58:05
Speaker 1: Well, can you tell our audience then where they can
58:08
Speaker 1: find out more about your journey and your mission and
58:10
Speaker 1: ministry and My Ascension, the documentary that chronicles your story?
58:16
Speaker 2: Yes, certainly. So if you want to learn more about
58:18
Speaker 2: the documentary film, you can check us out. We have
58:21
Speaker 2: a website. It's www.myascension.us. And we're also on Facebook. So
58:27
Speaker 2: you can give us a thumbs up or a like
58:29
Speaker 2: on Facebook to follow along on what we've been doing.
58:33
Speaker 2: The documentary film is a feature length film that currently
58:36
Speaker 2: is being shown to community events and high school students
58:40
Speaker 2: as well as middle school students. But it's been truly
58:44
Speaker 2: one of the greatest additions to this journey has been
58:47
Speaker 2: the film. And it's been a great tool to be
58:50
Speaker 2: able to talk about these things and spark these conversations
58:53
Speaker 2: with kids. So if you're interested in learning more, like
58:56
Speaker 2: I said, check us out. It's my ascension.us and my
58:59
Speaker 2: ascension on Facebook. Hmm.
59:01
Speaker 1: And Jennifer, likewise, can you tell us how they can
59:04
Speaker 1: find out more about your work and the American Association
59:07
Speaker 1: of Christian Counselors and their suicide prevention programs?
59:11
Speaker 4: Yes.
59:11
Speaker 3: Our website is aacc.net. That's aacc.net for the American Association
59:17
Speaker 3: of Christian Counselors. And we have many, many resources. We
59:21
Speaker 3: actually did a virtual screening of the My Ascension film
59:25
Speaker 3: for our memberships. And I know we're planning to actually
59:30
Speaker 3: have a panel discussion with Emma. And I'm sure we're
59:32
Speaker 3: going to be including Emma in some of our other
59:35
Speaker 3: events and things like that. But they can find out
59:38
Speaker 3: information about the Hope Focus 3R Suicide Prevention Program that
59:43
Speaker 3: you mentioned. We have both a general version and then
59:46
Speaker 3: we also now have a youth version that's available at aacc.net.
59:51
Speaker 2: Wow.
59:52
Speaker 1: Emma and Jennifer, I just cannot thank you enough for
59:54
Speaker 1: joining me today. Emma, thank you for sharing your heart
59:58
Speaker 1: and your story. And Jennifer, thank you for sharing your expertise.
1:00:02
Speaker 1: It is my fervent prayer that your work and even
1:00:06
Speaker 1: this single episode of Christian Parent Crazy World will save
1:00:09
Speaker 1: lives and it will point people towards freedom in Christ.
1:00:14
Speaker 2: Thank you so much.
1:00:16
Speaker 1: Moms and dads, if there is one thing I hope
1:00:19
Speaker 1: you take away from this episode, it's this. Engage with
1:00:24
Speaker 1: your kids. Talk to them often. Have those heart-to-heart conversations.
1:00:29
Speaker 1: Ask the uncomfortable questions. Don't be afraid to go deeper
1:00:34
Speaker 1: when something doesn't seem quite right. And above all else, pray.
1:00:41
Speaker 1: You know, I've put together a list of scriptures that
1:00:43
Speaker 1: you can pray over a child or really anyone you
1:00:46
Speaker 1: love who is battling anxiety, depression, or any form of
1:00:52
Speaker 1: mental illness. I've offered those Bible verses as a free
1:00:55
Speaker 1: resource when you subscribe at my website at katherineseegers.com. And
1:00:59
Speaker 1: if you're already a subscriber, simply open the email about
1:01:03
Speaker 1: this episode and you will find that resource there. And
1:01:07
Speaker 1: by the way, that resource is actually attached to every
1:01:10
Speaker 1: email I send out. I have a section with all
1:01:13
Speaker 1: of the resources on it, on each and every email.
1:01:17
Speaker 1: But please, please, please remember this. If you or someone
1:01:21
Speaker 1: you know is struggling with mental health and you believe
1:01:24
Speaker 1: that struggle may be life-threatening, call or text 988- The
1:01:32
Speaker 1: 988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline is there to provide immediate
1:01:36
Speaker 1: crisis support. So please don't try to walk through a
1:01:40
Speaker 1: life-threatening crisis alone. And I'd like to leave you with
1:01:45
Speaker 1: one of my favorite hope-filled passages of Scripture. These are
1:01:49
Speaker 1: some verses that God used to help bring me out
1:01:52
Speaker 1: of a 17-year battle with depression and anxiety. So they're
1:01:57
Speaker 1: actually deeply personal to me. It comes out of Psalm
1:02:01
Speaker 1: chapter 40, which says, He inclined to me and heard
1:02:07
Speaker 1: my cry. He lifted me out of the pit of despair,
1:02:11
Speaker 1: out of the miry clay. He set my feet upon
1:02:16
Speaker 1: a rock and he made my footsteps firm. He put
1:02:20
Speaker 1: a new song in my mouth, a hymn of praise
1:02:25
Speaker 1: to our God. Many, will see and fear and put
1:02:31
Speaker 1: their trust in the Lord. That is my prayer today,
1:02:37
Speaker 1: not just for our children, but for every troubled soul
1:02:41
Speaker 1: who is listening. And as always, remember, God gave you
1:02:46
Speaker 1: your kids, your specific kids, for a reason. That's because
1:02:52
Speaker 1: you hold the key to unlocking who God created them
1:02:56
Speaker 1: to be. We'll see you next time.
1:03:06
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