Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / 'Outdoorsman' tracks women like animals through woods to rape and murder

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'Outdoorsman' tracks women like animals through woods to rape and murder · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Have you ever considered delving
0:16
Speaker 1: into the mind of a serial killer? I do not
0:20
Speaker 1: advise it at all. So often we learn of serial
0:26
Speaker 1: killers that seemingly functioned normally in regular life. One was
0:33
Speaker 1: a law student, Ted Bundy, One was a dogcatcher, a
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Speaker 1: church deacon, a dad father that would be BTK buying
0:45
Speaker 1: torture Dennis Raider. I could go on and on and
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Speaker 1: on how serial killers seemingly lead a normal life and
0:55
Speaker 1: they blend in amongst us. Little do we know they
1:01
Speaker 1: are serial killers. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. How did
1:21
Speaker 1: a nerdy local baker get revealed as one of the
1:30
Speaker 1: most prolific serial killers ever in the US? Take a
1:35
Speaker 1: listen to this too. Off duty Anchorage police officers were
1:39
Speaker 1: hunting moose near the Connect River in a wilderness about
1:42
Speaker 1: twenty miles from Anchorage. As they made their way through
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Speaker 1: the dense forests, they happened upon partially buried human remains.
1:51
Speaker 1: They left it undisturbed. The next day, crime scene technicians
1:55
Speaker 1: from the Alaska State Troopers arrived at the scene. Crimes
1:58
Speaker 1: out here fell into state juris diction. Besides clothing and
2:01
Speaker 1: an elastic bandage troopers found a two twenty three caliber
2:05
Speaker 1: shellcasing in the shallow grave. Dental records identified the remains
2:10
Speaker 1: as twenty three year old Sherry Morrow, an exoted dents
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Speaker 1: who reported missing a year earlier by her boyfriend. Troopers
2:20
Speaker 1: called him in to break the news. Her clothes matched
2:24
Speaker 1: the ones he reported her missing him, but her good
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Speaker 1: luck charm, the gold arrowhead pendant she never took off
2:30
Speaker 1: instant was gone. Tomorrow was probably murdered shortly after she disappeared,
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Speaker 1: giving the killer more than a year to cover his tracks.
2:40
Speaker 1: With me an all star panel to break it down
2:43
Speaker 1: and put it back together again. You were just hearing
2:45
Speaker 1: our friend Anthony call the FBI files Hunter's Game talking
2:50
Speaker 1: about the first victim we believe to be attributed to
2:56
Speaker 1: Butcher Baker, an American serial killer. With me Randy Kessler,
3:02
Speaker 1: renowned defense attorney who specializes in not only criminal defense,
3:07
Speaker 1: but family law. Doctor Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, Chief Psychiatry,
3:13
Speaker 1: Memorial Regional Healthcare Systems. You can find them on insta
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Speaker 1: a Doctor Daniel Bober, Jennifer Sen, forensic scientist, former San
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Speaker 1: Diego Police crime Lab director at jenshen Forensics dot Com.
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Speaker 1: Doctor Kendall Crowns, renowned deputy medical examiner, Travis County, Texas.
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Speaker 1: That's Austin and special guests joining us. Leland Hall, author
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Speaker 1: of Butcher Baker, who was Sherry Morrow to you, Leland Hale,
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Speaker 1: somebody who is passing through Anchorage at that time. In
3:53
Speaker 1: Anchorage there was lots of money because the oil pipeline
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Speaker 1: was booming, lots of men who came up there, and
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Speaker 1: there was a pipeline of women who would work as
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Speaker 1: dancers in Seattle. They go to Anchorage, they worked there
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Speaker 1: for a while. They I find it hard to imagine
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Speaker 1: somebody just passing through Anchorage. I mean, I've traveled a lot,
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Speaker 1: both with and without my twins, but I've never just
4:22
Speaker 1: passed through Anchorage. I mean, that's not really on a
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Speaker 1: typical route. You have to go way out of your
4:29
Speaker 1: way to get to Anchorage, Alaska. That is true. But
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Speaker 1: there was a company called Talents West that hired dancers
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Speaker 1: and they had clubs. What's the name of it, Talents West.
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Speaker 1: Talents run West n T S b A l E
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Speaker 1: NTS and that's for strippers, that's for strippers and dancers.
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Speaker 1: They had clubs in Seattle. They had clubs, and in Alaska.
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Speaker 1: They had clubs in Hawaii. So they hire these women
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Speaker 1: often in Seattle, and they would ship them from place.
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Speaker 1: You make them sound like cattle. I started off liking you,
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Speaker 1: Leland Hale. Now you can have a call about that.
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Speaker 1: They ship them around like cattle. Too hard to reach
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Speaker 1: destinations that you can't normally get to. Hawai Alaska Talents
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Speaker 1: West was a local Seattle based mafia organization organized crime.
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Speaker 1: And one of the things in the clubs is if
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Speaker 1: you have people coming back, you want them to come
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Speaker 1: back again and again. So they like fresh talent, and
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Speaker 1: so that's they would work there a while, they would
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Speaker 1: move upon. So that's kind of how these women got there.
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Speaker 1: But of course there were lots of money in Anchorage,
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Speaker 1: so a lot of them stayed, and there was lots
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Speaker 1: of clubs, so they could go from club to clubs.
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Speaker 1: Hold on, just a moment. I got to go to
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Speaker 1: Randy Kessler. I'm sure in the city of Atlanta have
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Speaker 1: represented your share stripper. You know there's a thing about strippers. Kestler.
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Speaker 1: My husband David, one of his friends, very good friend
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Speaker 1: in college, wonderful man's great job. He fell in love
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Speaker 1: with a stripper. She wasn't happy until she bled him dry,
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Speaker 1: ruined his marriage and left him. All right, men are
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Speaker 1: like ATM machines to strippers. So I guess what Leland
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Speaker 1: Hall is saying is a lot of them go where
6:28
Speaker 1: the money is. I guess, so, Kestler, that's true, that
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Speaker 1: allow of the women go where the money is too.
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Speaker 1: In fact, to speak of law school when I was
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Speaker 1: in law school. So when I was in law school,
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Speaker 1: put herself through law school by making that money. And
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Speaker 1: you know what, there's some people that do it and
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Speaker 1: they're not that people. They recognize men are going to
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Speaker 1: pay silly money for to see a naked woman and
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Speaker 1: they take advantage of what they got. That be a
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Speaker 1: lesson ju Kessler. M guys, we were talking about Butcher Baker,
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Speaker 1: one of the most prolific serial killers in the world,
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Speaker 1: and we know that possibly one of his first victims
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Speaker 1: was Sherry Morrow. She wasn't found until two off DD
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Speaker 1: police officers were out hunting and found partially buried human remains.
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Speaker 1: You know, let me go to you, Jennifer Shen. I
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Speaker 1: don't know if he's that smart because the shell casing
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Speaker 1: was still in the grave, isn't it true that you
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Speaker 1: can trace not only the forensic markings on a bullet itself,
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Speaker 1: but on the shellcasing when the shellcasing is ejected from
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Speaker 1: the weapon. Yes, you're absolutely right about that. And you know,
7:37
Speaker 1: it's interesting when I was doing some research on this,
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Speaker 1: you want to when you have a serial killer, you're
7:44
Speaker 1: looking at connecting cramping after crampanther cramping together to get
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Speaker 1: enough information to figure out who's doing this. So he
7:50
Speaker 1: obviously thought that she was far enough away and off
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Speaker 1: the beaten path and that he would be protected from that.
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Speaker 1: I don't know why he would have picked that pick
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Speaker 1: to that up and not left it there, because that
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Speaker 1: was really instrumental in making the cases so to each
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Speaker 1: other and to him later, So that was definitely mistaken. Yeah,
8:07
Speaker 1: you're right, and to you, doctor Kendall. Crown's Deputy Medical
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Speaker 1: Examiner Austin Or think about it. Let's follow it through
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Speaker 1: to its natural conclusion. Maybe he took her there, doug
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Speaker 1: the grave and shot her right there, killed her right there,
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Speaker 1: and didn't realize he had left the shell casing behind. Yeah,
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Speaker 1: that's always a possibility that people in the moment of
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Speaker 1: murdering someone kind of forget about cleaning up after the fact,
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Speaker 1: and especially with shell casings, they often forget to pick
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Speaker 1: those up. Yeah, it's a lot of people know that
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Speaker 1: you can trace a bullet forensically. I'll never forget the
8:47
Speaker 1: first time I watched at the crime lab how bullets
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Speaker 1: were matched up to a particular individual gun. It's like
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Speaker 1: a fingerprint. As that bullet hurls down the barrel of
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Speaker 1: the gun, it strikes the edges the inside of the gun,
9:04
Speaker 1: which is made of metal. Of course, in such a
9:07
Speaker 1: way it leaves striation marks on the bullet that no
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Speaker 1: other gun can leave. Same thing when a shell case
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Speaker 1: is ejected, the ejection pen as I call at least
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Speaker 1: a mark on the shell casing that no other gun
9:24
Speaker 1: will leave. Time Stories with Nancy Grace, we are talking
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Speaker 1: about possibly the post prolific serial killer in the world,
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Speaker 1: definitely and Alaska. Take a listen to FBI files Hunters game.
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Speaker 1: During new road construction. In September two, nineteen eighty three,
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Speaker 1: a Q huners to human skeletal remails not far from
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Speaker 1: where Sherry Marl body had been found one year earlier.
10:04
Speaker 1: The bones had obviously been here for some time, yet
10:07
Speaker 1: until recently, this area of the connect river was so
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Speaker 1: remote that it could only be accessed by boat or
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Speaker 1: light plane. The remains were identified as seventeen year old
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Speaker 1: Paula Goulding, an out of work secretary who had moved
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Speaker 1: to Alaska from Hawaii. She had been missing for five months.
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Speaker 1: Like Sherry Morrow, she had taken a job as an
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Speaker 1: exotic dancer to make ends meet. And like Sherry Morrow,
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Speaker 1: the two twenty three caliber cartridge was found at the site.
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Speaker 1: For Alaska State Trooper Wayne van Clausen, the connection was
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Speaker 1: frightening and at about when everything started to become kind
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Speaker 1: of scary for everybody because the profile was the shame
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Speaker 1: they were. They were topless dancers from the clubs downtown.
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Speaker 1: So we're will give her somebody that frequent strip Clause's
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Speaker 1: how does a seventeen year old girl dance at a
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Speaker 1: strip club in Alaska? I mean, you can't buy booze
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Speaker 1: or cigarettes, but you can dance in a strip club.
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Speaker 1: But also, I'm curious to Leland Hill authorov Butcher Baker
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Speaker 1: or his latest book, what Happened in Craig Alaska's worst
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Speaker 1: unsolved mass murder Leland First of all, there's a hurdle
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Speaker 1: of a seventeen year old girl dancing at a strip club.
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Speaker 1: But the fact that their bodies are in such remote
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Speaker 1: areas tells me a lot about the killer. Right tells
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Speaker 1: you a lot about the killer. It tells you a
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Speaker 1: lot about Alaska, specifically, vast state, easy to get away into,
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Speaker 1: remote places, which is in part explains the carelessness about
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Speaker 1: his brass. He was so far away you can only
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Speaker 1: get there by boat or plane. There is actually a
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Speaker 1: very rough road that goes to the connect I've taken
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Speaker 1: at once. I would not recommend anyone else drives that road. So, yeah,
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Speaker 1: the Kennate River. He was using the bush as his
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Speaker 1: sort of ultimate weapon. Well, I like what you just said,
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Speaker 1: using the bush as his ultimate weapon. The wilderness guys
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Speaker 1: were talking about Butcher Baker, a mass cure on the
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Speaker 1: loose in Alaska. Take a listen to this. Seward Alaska
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Speaker 1: is a small city over one hundred and fifty miles
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Speaker 1: south of Ekludna on the remote Kenai Peninsula. Highway maintenance
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Speaker 1: workers come to do their job and they find a
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Speaker 1: body and the police get to the crime scene. There
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Speaker 1: is a bear and this bear has been gnawing on
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Speaker 1: the victim. Police have a choice shoot the bear or
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Speaker 1: lose their evidence to a bear. So are they killed
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Speaker 1: the bear? The body is wrapped in the moldy sleeping bag.
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Speaker 1: It's a woman without any clothes. Her body has been
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Speaker 1: dragged there hastily buried. There's no identification on the victim,
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Speaker 1: and the troopers transport the body back to town for autopsy.
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Speaker 1: To you, doctor Daniel Bober, the fact that this victim
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Speaker 1: and a moldy sleeping bag getting gnawed on by a
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Speaker 1: bear is naked tells me a lot about the motivation. Doctor,
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Speaker 1: What does it tell you, Nanty, It tells me it's
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Speaker 1: a sex motivation. Whether or not the women have been raped,
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Speaker 1: it's a completely different issue. But the fact that they
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Speaker 1: were naked tells me that the bodies were either stripped
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Speaker 1: before or after death. Now, why was it to sex
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Speaker 1: assault them before death, after death to get rid of
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Speaker 1: evidence that may have been on the close. But the
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Speaker 1: fact that two of the women so far have been
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Speaker 1: coming from strip clubs, one just a secretary at age seventeen.
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Speaker 1: Now the third body naked, that tells me it has
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Speaker 1: something to do with the women being naked, which tells
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Speaker 1: me it's sex motivated crime. I mean, I'm not the
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Speaker 1: shrink you are. Don't try throwing my own question back
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Speaker 1: at me, Bober, but you just did, so tell me
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Speaker 1: what does it mean to you? Well, I think you
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Speaker 1: would have to examine the body closer to know, obviously
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Speaker 1: if there was any sexual assault. But yes, I do
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Speaker 1: think that there's a sexual element to it. I agree
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Speaker 1: with you. To you. Leland Hale, author of Butcher baker
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Speaker 1: latest book, What Happened in Craig, Alaska's worst unsolved mass murder. Leland,
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Speaker 1: explain to me again where this body is found. Is
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Speaker 1: this a separate body or is it the same when
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Speaker 1: we were talking about Paula Goulding. This is a separate body,
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Speaker 1: a third body, a third body, Yes, and it's it's
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Speaker 1: miles in the opposite direction where from where Paula Goulding's
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Speaker 1: body was found. So the Knick River is north of Anchorage.
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Speaker 1: This body was found on the Kenai Peninsula, which is
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Speaker 1: quite a bit south of Anchorage. So this also tells
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Speaker 1: you a little bit about the scope of these crimes.
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Speaker 1: And I said, you know, the wilderness, the bush has
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Speaker 1: his ultimate weapons. So he's all over this wilderness in Alaska,
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Speaker 1: And it tells me a lot about his psyche because
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Speaker 1: you have to be a wilderness expert to go that
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Speaker 1: far into the outback the forest, a very very heavily
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Speaker 1: wooded forest, to know where to bury these bodies, to
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Speaker 1: hide them. So I think that we are now talking
15:54
Speaker 1: about a twenty four year old. He definitely has a time.
15:56
Speaker 1: Youngest so far so far is seventeen. Then you've got
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Speaker 1: Sherry Morrow twenty three. Now Joanna Messina twenty four, who
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Speaker 1: I think is the body in the multi sleeping back.
16:07
Speaker 1: You were just hearing Mark of a Killer on Oxygen.
16:10
Speaker 1: Now take a listen to Mark of a Killer with
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Speaker 1: author Leland Hale. Carna determines that the victim died from
16:18
Speaker 1: a two twenty three caliber gunshot loud. It's a hard
16:22
Speaker 1: powered rifle that's a type of weapon to use to
16:27
Speaker 1: kill large game animals the hunters would be familiar with.
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Speaker 1: By fingerprints, the human remains in that shallow grave will
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Speaker 1: positively identified as Joanna Messina from Seward, Alaska. Police start
16:53
Speaker 1: to interview people who know her. Joanne Messina is a
16:58
Speaker 1: prostitute trying to get a job in a counter. Joanna's
17:05
Speaker 1: friends tell police that Joanna went to meet a man
17:09
Speaker 1: who promised her a shopping spree, but she never returned
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Speaker 1: and talked to her friends about it, boyfriend's parents and
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Speaker 1: the relatives. Everything we did turned out nothing, No suspect.
17:23
Speaker 1: Straight out to Leland Hall, author of Butcher baker Or
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Speaker 1: latest book, What Happened in Craig Alaska's Worst Unsolved mass Murder?
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Speaker 1: Leland what is the m Are all the women shot? Yes,
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Speaker 1: we're on their body? Are they shot? Is it always
17:39
Speaker 1: the same? It's a killed shot, so usually to the
17:42
Speaker 1: carso sometimes right to the heart. What do you mean
17:45
Speaker 1: by kill shot? Well, so you're aiming for the widest,
17:49
Speaker 1: broadest part of the body where all the internal organs are.
17:52
Speaker 1: So that's the same as police are trained military men.
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Speaker 1: Yeah to you, Doctor Kennel Crown's Depu Medical Examine, Austin.
18:01
Speaker 1: Have you ever heard of a kill shot? Yeah, I've
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Speaker 1: heard people refer to a kill shot, specifically an execution
18:08
Speaker 1: type shot where they shoot an individual in the back
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Speaker 1: of the head. Often it's associated with mom type hits
18:15
Speaker 1: where they put the kill shot with another shot and
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Speaker 1: then leave the gun at the site. Prime Stories with
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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. Guys, we're talking about one of the most
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Speaker 1: prolific serial killers to ever walk the US, this time
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Speaker 1: centered in Alaska, the FBI desperately developing a criminal profile.
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Speaker 1: To Leland Hale, author A Butcher Baker explain to me
18:50
Speaker 1: Leland what the profile was that the FBI came up with. Well,
18:54
Speaker 1: they thought it was somebody who was a hunter. Yeah,
18:58
Speaker 1: they thought it was somebody who was a loner. They
19:00
Speaker 1: thought it was someone who was a businessman, had some
19:04
Speaker 1: sort of cover. But I don't I don't get why
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Speaker 1: they're saying a loaner. Of course it's a hunter, because
19:10
Speaker 1: they're out in the middle of the woods and the
19:12
Speaker 1: bullets indicate a high powered hunting rifle. I mean, I
19:15
Speaker 1: can figure that much out. I don't know why they're
19:18
Speaker 1: getting businessman because he could pay to tips strippers. I
19:22
Speaker 1: mean like constructional worker could do that. Anybody could. If
19:26
Speaker 1: you can pay the cover to get in a strip bar.
19:29
Speaker 1: That doesn't mean you're a businessman. Where'd they get that? Well,
19:33
Speaker 1: because they figured quite accurately that some of these bodies
19:39
Speaker 1: found on the connect River were probably transported there by plane.
19:43
Speaker 1: Ah Okay, So even though Alaska has a very high
19:47
Speaker 1: rate of private plane ownership, it still umps the ante
19:52
Speaker 1: of who is in that picture to afford it now,
19:57
Speaker 1: I get it, because these areas were so remote leland
20:00
Speaker 1: hail that they could only be gotten to by playing.
20:03
Speaker 1: Is that what you're saying? Some of these areas for sure, Yes,
20:06
Speaker 1: especially on the connect there's no roads of any note
20:10
Speaker 1: going there, so you can get there by boat. It's
20:12
Speaker 1: a little harder when you're trying to kidnap somebody to
20:16
Speaker 1: take them to a romote place. Guys, finally we get
20:20
Speaker 1: a break one of the would be murder victims lives.
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Speaker 1: Listen to Anthony d Call in a Hunter's Game. On
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Speaker 1: the early morning of June thirteenth, nineteen eighty three, Cindy Poulson,
20:35
Speaker 1: aged seventeen, ran down an Anchorage highway. She was partially
20:41
Speaker 1: dressed and in handcuffs. She managed to flag down a
20:45
Speaker 1: passing truck. She was running for her life. The motorists
20:55
Speaker 1: dropped her off at her motel apartment. The desk it
21:00
Speaker 1: could call the Anchorage police. It's falsa. An officer removed
21:04
Speaker 1: her handcuffs and tried to calm her. All right, let
21:07
Speaker 1: me get this. Anchorage police officer Greg Baker recalls the incident.
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Speaker 1: We found her in handcuffs with very little clothes on.
21:17
Speaker 1: She was real credible. She's very scared. She's very frightened. Guys.
21:22
Speaker 1: The woman is half naked, running for her life in handcuffs.
21:28
Speaker 1: Now to you, doctor Daniel Bober, don't throw my question
21:31
Speaker 1: back at me. Okay, what does it tell you that
21:34
Speaker 1: the victim was handcuffed? It calls me. It could be
21:37
Speaker 1: a few things, Nancy. It could be that that was
21:39
Speaker 1: the way that he subdued the victim, that he used
21:41
Speaker 1: as a tool of control. Or it could be part
21:44
Speaker 1: of something ritualistic sexually. You mean S and M bondage. Correct?
21:49
Speaker 1: Why am I having to spoon feed you baby food? Bober?
21:52
Speaker 1: Out with it? What kind of mind wants the woman
21:57
Speaker 1: to be handcuffed? Someone that enjoys the thrill of the
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Speaker 1: power and the control. Unpsy Guys, what do we learn
22:05
Speaker 1: from her? She manages to live to tell the tale? Listen.
22:10
Speaker 1: Paulson told Baker that she picked up a trick the
22:12
Speaker 1: night before. She described him as wiry, scruffy, about six
22:18
Speaker 1: feet tall, with glasses and to stutter. It was not
22:22
Speaker 1: the kind of person. She thought of his threatening, But
22:27
Speaker 1: as soon as she stepped into his car, heat handcuffed
22:30
Speaker 1: her and put a wood handled revolver to her head.
22:33
Speaker 1: They drove to a respectable residential neighborhood. He pulled her
22:37
Speaker 1: into his house. The place was well kept and full
22:41
Speaker 1: of hunting trophies. He had a chain hanging from the
22:43
Speaker 1: ceiling of his den. He chained her up and stripped her,
22:48
Speaker 1: and there she was tortured and raped repeatedly for hours.
22:52
Speaker 1: Then he went to take a nap, leaving her there,
22:56
Speaker 1: but he wasn't through yet. He said he was going
22:58
Speaker 1: to take her to his cat in the wilderness. He
23:01
Speaker 1: said if she tried to get anyone's attention, he'd kill
23:04
Speaker 1: her and them as well. He told her he already
23:06
Speaker 1: had his alibi worked out here, his friends were willing
23:09
Speaker 1: to lie for him. No one would believe her story. Wow,
23:14
Speaker 1: So he gets her into the home and I find
23:16
Speaker 1: this very very interesting to you. Jennifer Sham, forensics scientist
23:21
Speaker 1: at jen Sham Forensics dot com. I always use Scott
23:24
Speaker 1: Peterson as a good example because it's easy to relate
23:27
Speaker 1: and to understand. Have you noticed that criminals always go
23:32
Speaker 1: where they're comfortable, where they've been before, some place with
23:36
Speaker 1: which they are familiar, to dump a body or committed crime.
23:39
Speaker 1: Peterson was a fisherman, so he kills Lacy Peterson, according
23:44
Speaker 1: to a jury and the California Supreme Court, and dumps
23:48
Speaker 1: her body in the San Diego Bay. Excuse me, the
23:50
Speaker 1: San Francisco Bay, because he's fished there many many times before.
23:55
Speaker 1: We see it over and over and over. So in
23:58
Speaker 1: this case, according to this this young girl just seventeen,
24:02
Speaker 1: who lives running down the road naked and handcuffed. Half
24:07
Speaker 1: naked and handcuffed, she says, he takes her to what
24:10
Speaker 1: she believes is his home in a quote respectable residential area.
24:15
Speaker 1: What is it with criminals? They always go to a
24:17
Speaker 1: place that's connected to them in some way. Yeah, it's
24:22
Speaker 1: kind of shocking, and it tells you a couple of things.
24:24
Speaker 1: Number one that he absolutely was going to kill her,
24:27
Speaker 1: because brings her into his home where she could, you know,
24:31
Speaker 1: basically just discuss what she had seen and did that.
24:34
Speaker 1: In fact, when she got away, it ties her to him.
24:38
Speaker 1: So I thought must have been that he was going
24:40
Speaker 1: to kill her. And you know, murdering someone or torturing
24:43
Speaker 1: raping them, it's a it's a risky business. So you
24:46
Speaker 1: do tend to see serial killers concentrate in areas that
24:50
Speaker 1: they feel comfortable. So that is a measure of control
24:52
Speaker 1: they have over their environment. But actually to have her
24:57
Speaker 1: in his own home is that's pretty That's not something
25:02
Speaker 1: that I've seen a want. That is actually pretty startling.
25:04
Speaker 1: I can understand particular places in the woods, et cetera.
25:08
Speaker 1: But to bring her into his family home or if
25:10
Speaker 1: he was married and had children, that is that's very unusual.
25:16
Speaker 1: So right now we've got Cindy Paulson, just seventeen years old,
25:19
Speaker 1: trying to explain to police what happened to her. So far,
25:22
Speaker 1: all she can say really is that the guy took
25:25
Speaker 1: her to a home which seemed to be a respectable
25:29
Speaker 1: residential area. Their word's not mine. But other than that,
25:33
Speaker 1: that's all she can say in addition to a general description.
25:37
Speaker 1: But then she gives a detail that makes sense. Take
25:42
Speaker 1: a listen to Anthony D. Call Hunter's game banded up
25:45
Speaker 1: at the airport, She could see him loading a weapon
25:48
Speaker 1: into a small aircraft. She also saw her chance for escape,
25:52
Speaker 1: for one chance to save her life. The story sounded outrageous,
25:57
Speaker 1: but her genuine terror compelled Officer Baker to check it out.
26:02
Speaker 1: I had a very street smart female scared to death
26:06
Speaker 1: with the story about being taken at gunpoint and held
26:11
Speaker 1: prisoner at a specific location that she described where it
26:15
Speaker 1: was so she knew where it was. She described the
26:17
Speaker 1: interior of the location. She described a den up to
26:21
Speaker 1: and including various animals who are posted on the mounted
26:24
Speaker 1: on the wall. En route to the hospital for an examination,
26:28
Speaker 1: Paulson insisted on stopping at the airport to show police
26:31
Speaker 1: the airplane she had seen earlier. She positively identified it.
26:36
Speaker 1: While we were in there, we had a security guard
26:40
Speaker 1: stop us and described a car the same way that
26:43
Speaker 1: Cindy described a car, and in fact gave us a
26:45
Speaker 1: license number. That license number confirmed the address or the
26:50
Speaker 1: area at least that Cindy had given us Prime stories
27:07
Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace, Guys, we were talking about one of
27:11
Speaker 1: the most prolific serial killers to ever walk the US
27:14
Speaker 1: or its territories, Butcher Baker. Now we're getting somewhere to
27:19
Speaker 1: Leland Hell, author of Butcher Baker or his lady's book,
27:22
Speaker 1: What Happened in Craig Alaska's worst unsolved mass murder. Leland Hell.
27:29
Speaker 1: Now we're narrowing it down. We now have somebody that
27:33
Speaker 1: owns or rents a plane, a car description, and a
27:38
Speaker 1: tag number. Because when you go to a private airbase.
27:43
Speaker 1: They take your tag number from your car as you
27:46
Speaker 1: go in and out. Usually there's a security checkpoint to
27:48
Speaker 1: get into most of them. So now they're starting to
27:53
Speaker 1: narrow down who the guy might be. What can you
27:57
Speaker 1: tell me about this girl, Cindy Paulson. Well, she was
28:02
Speaker 1: addicted to cocaine. She'd been dancing in a bunch of
28:06
Speaker 1: clubs and hooking on the side. She'd run away from home,
28:14
Speaker 1: was strange from her family. She was obviously very scared,
28:22
Speaker 1: but somehow this young woman, as scared as she was,
28:27
Speaker 1: just had an incredible memory for detail. So going back
28:33
Speaker 1: to the plane, that was the plane. It was the plane.
28:35
Speaker 1: And they, by the way, you could also identify the
28:38
Speaker 1: plane because it has a tail number of it links
28:40
Speaker 1: it to the same person that they're looking for in
28:44
Speaker 1: terms of the car. She was chained up in this
28:48
Speaker 1: basement for hours while he slept watching the clock tick tick.
28:53
Speaker 1: Knew she was going to die. I was determined to live.
28:57
Speaker 1: It's not my time, that's what she's and she was
29:02
Speaker 1: right chained up in a basement watching the clock tick
29:07
Speaker 1: tick tick. After hours and hours of rate and torture. Finally,
29:12
Speaker 1: because of this young girl who would normally face horrible
29:16
Speaker 1: credibility issues across exam addicted to coke, stripper hooking on
29:22
Speaker 1: the side. But this girl is telling the truth. Take
29:26
Speaker 1: a listen to a hunter's game. On the surface, Baker
29:30
Speaker 1: found nothing in Hanson's record to arouse suspicion. He had
29:34
Speaker 1: moved to Anchorage from Iowa sixteen years earlier and opened
29:38
Speaker 1: a bakery. It was a huge success. He had a
29:42
Speaker 1: wife and children, and except for his stutterarn, he fit
29:45
Speaker 1: in completely. When he wasn't in the kitchen, Hanson enjoyed
29:49
Speaker 1: flying his small airplane, a supercub Piper. Back on the ground,
29:56
Speaker 1: he took to the woods. He was a Oland citizen.
30:00
Speaker 1: He just didn't fit the model of a serial killer.
30:05
Speaker 1: There were plenty of others drifting through Alaska more suited
30:08
Speaker 1: to that role. They didn't have businesses, they didn't have
30:12
Speaker 1: families Hanson did. He had everything to lose. Let me
30:19
Speaker 1: understand something, Leland Hale, author of Butcher Baker, This guy
30:23
Speaker 1: Hanson had a wife and children. How do you bring
30:28
Speaker 1: a rape slash murder victim into your home, into your
30:32
Speaker 1: basement with them in the home. How do you go
30:34
Speaker 1: from being a quote nerdy local Baker into a serial killer.
30:39
Speaker 1: So these killings Bob described as his summertime project. His
30:46
Speaker 1: wife was a teacher, and the auten arranged for her
30:51
Speaker 1: to be out of town so he would go to
30:52
Speaker 1: arc she would go to Arkansas to visit her family.
30:56
Speaker 1: The summer that this occurred, she was in Europe for
31:00
Speaker 1: several months, so he had the house to himself and
31:04
Speaker 1: he planned these excursions. Helped his wife plan these excursions,
31:09
Speaker 1: sometimes a year ahead. Wow, Eland, that is a lot
31:12
Speaker 1: of planning. So he's planning the murders a year ahead
31:15
Speaker 1: of time. He is planning liaisons. In fact, five days
31:21
Speaker 1: before the Cindy Cindy Paulson was brought there, he brought
31:26
Speaker 1: another woman there he'd advertised in the was called the
31:31
Speaker 1: Sunday Singles. She happened to be Alaska State Trooper secretary.
31:38
Speaker 1: He brought her to the same place and she said, no,
31:41
Speaker 1: I don't want to have sex on the bearskin rug
31:44
Speaker 1: and you let her go. Five days later, Cindy Poulson
31:48
Speaker 1: is in that same place with a different outcome. Guys,
31:51
Speaker 1: we are talking about so called butcher baker, serial killer
31:57
Speaker 1: posing as the local baker. What can you tell me
32:01
Speaker 1: about his bakery? Leland. He was very successful. His dad
32:06
Speaker 1: was a baker from Denmark, so he really learned that
32:10
Speaker 1: a master's side. He took baking jobs all throughout the
32:14
Speaker 1: Midwest before coming to Alaska, worked for other people, worked
32:19
Speaker 1: Safely Bakery for a while, and then got his own bakery.
32:22
Speaker 1: It was very close to actually was very close to
32:26
Speaker 1: the anchored strip where all the hookers. Wow. Okay, yeah,
32:30
Speaker 1: so he's seeing them as he's got this seemingly normal life.
32:34
Speaker 1: And he had children as well, two children, yes, And
32:37
Speaker 1: I guess they would go with mom when he would
32:39
Speaker 1: ship her off to Arkansas or wherever they would go
32:42
Speaker 1: with mom, that's correct. Would he have a spate of
32:45
Speaker 1: murderers that he could fit in into her trip or
32:49
Speaker 1: was it one a year that we know of? Well,
32:53
Speaker 1: he was most prolific between nineteen eighty and nineteen eighty three.
32:57
Speaker 1: And we have a map with about what seventeen nineteen
33:00
Speaker 1: twenty mark on it, so he was yolific during that period.
33:06
Speaker 1: The map he would bury his victim's bodies and martin
33:08
Speaker 1: their grays with an X on a map that he
33:12
Speaker 1: that he had. But you know what we're saying, how
33:14
Speaker 1: did he transform from a meek mild nerdy, local baker
33:21
Speaker 1: at a bakery into a mass murderer, a serial killer.
33:25
Speaker 1: But you know what all the signs were there. Take
33:28
Speaker 1: a listen to the FBI files. In nineteen sixty seven,
33:31
Speaker 1: he moved to a let hunting. Three years after moving there,
33:35
Speaker 1: his record showed he was arrested for the attempted rape
33:37
Speaker 1: of a young receptionist at gunpoint. He pleaded no contest
33:41
Speaker 1: to assault with a deadly weapon. A little more than
33:44
Speaker 1: a month later, he was indicted for the attempted assault
33:47
Speaker 1: of an eighteen year old woman he followed home soon
33:52
Speaker 1: as the man got to Alaska. He was involved in
33:55
Speaker 1: theft cases. He was involved in abductions. He had psychiatric
34:01
Speaker 1: evaluations showing him to be really unstable and having all
34:04
Speaker 1: kinds of weird sexual fantasies and the rest. True to
34:08
Speaker 1: the profile, Hanson seemed a respectable citizen, so the courts
34:12
Speaker 1: were lenient. In one case, he claimed to have memory
34:15
Speaker 1: lapses and was given psychiatric treatment in five years in
34:18
Speaker 1: a work release program. He abducted one of his early
34:23
Speaker 1: victims outside of coffee shop, took her to a cabin
34:26
Speaker 1: in the wilderness, and raped her at gunpoint. She was
34:30
Speaker 1: seventeen at the time. All of this is fitting together
34:35
Speaker 1: as an m I just don't understand how it was
34:37
Speaker 1: overlooked Leland Hale, the seventeen year old receptionist, as just
34:43
Speaker 1: like his other victims that we know of, two of
34:46
Speaker 1: them seventeen. Yes, it is curious, right, Why didn't he
34:51
Speaker 1: go to jail for twenty to live on the rape? Well,
34:55
Speaker 1: the rape charge was dropped because the woman was a
34:59
Speaker 1: prosecute and they felt like they had the better case
35:02
Speaker 1: with the other woman who he attempted to kidnap and
35:06
Speaker 1: rape because she was not a prostitute. She was a
35:09
Speaker 1: real estate secretary. Okay, so one sex related attempt and
35:15
Speaker 1: rape after the next, and he never was put behind bars.
35:20
Speaker 1: I want you to take a listen to this guy,
35:22
Speaker 1: Robert Hansen, in his own words, remember anything about what
35:27
Speaker 1: she looked light, her size, Harry? Was she bound in anyway?
35:33
Speaker 1: At his point? Going out here? I did not walk
35:44
Speaker 1: and she where where where we was going so far?
35:55
Speaker 1: I guess it. Maybe it made me feel national or
35:58
Speaker 1: our boy are in a control of my life. Braw
36:06
Speaker 1: things like fine in that Redson, but the time went
36:13
Speaker 1: to five. That time you're listening to our friends over
36:17
Speaker 1: at investigation discovery that time. I mean, how many murderers
36:23
Speaker 1: do we attribute to Butcher Baker Leland Hale? How many? Well,
36:28
Speaker 1: at least twenty seven and probably more like thirty thirty two.
36:33
Speaker 1: Hard hard to say. There's there's some on his map
36:36
Speaker 1: that he denied, of course, that there's a couple of
36:41
Speaker 1: marks in the middle of Resurrection Bay, Resurrection Bay near
36:44
Speaker 1: Seward in the water. So who knows, right guys this perp.
36:53
Speaker 1: Robert Hansen, a local baker at the bakery, walked a
37:00
Speaker 1: ast everyone free. Never put behind bars for his sex
37:04
Speaker 1: attacks up to thirty plus murder victims an fyi. He
37:13
Speaker 1: died of old age behind bars. Nancy Grace crime story
37:20
Speaker 1: signing off goodbye friend,