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Bengals Booth Podcast: Reunited · Bengals Booth Podcast

0:03
Speaker 1: Hi, get everybody. I'm Dan Horden.
0:05
Speaker 2: Thanks for downloading the Bengals Booth Podcast. The Reunited and
0:10
Speaker 2: it feels so good. Addition, as NFL coaches, GMS, scouts,
0:17
Speaker 2: reporters and fans returned to Indianapolis for the NFL Scouting Combine.
0:22
Speaker 2: It's the official start of Draft season and on this episode,
0:26
Speaker 2: I'll talk to three of the best draft experts out there,
0:30
Speaker 2: Greg Cosel from NFL Films, Dane Brugler from The Athletic,
0:34
Speaker 2: and Bucky Brooks from NFL Network. The Bengals Booth Podcast
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Speaker 2: healthcare provider of the Bengals. Now here's a quick reminder
1:00
Speaker 2: that you can have the latest edition of this podcast
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Speaker 2: delivered right to your phone, tablet, or computer by subscribing
1:07
Speaker 2: wherever you get your podcasts. It's the greatest thing since
1:12
Speaker 2: rarely having to shovel. I grew up near Buffalo went
1:17
Speaker 2: to college, and then worked in Syracuse and later lived
1:20
Speaker 2: in Boston. There are things I miss about all of
1:23
Speaker 2: those places. But when I saw pictures from the historic
1:27
Speaker 2: blizzard that hit New England a few days ago, I
1:30
Speaker 2: was reminded of something I don't miss. Shoveling. Not shoveling
1:35
Speaker 2: like we occasionally have to do after a few inches
1:38
Speaker 2: fall in Cincinnati. I'm talking about digging out after a
1:43
Speaker 2: couple of feet hit the ground. I know Cincinnati isn't Maui,
1:47
Speaker 2: but after seeing pictures from Boston where the snow on
1:51
Speaker 2: top of cars looked like the mound of cheese on
1:55
Speaker 2: top of a skyline chili threeway, I do feel like
1:58
Speaker 2: I am living in a tropical paradise. Now, let's get
2:03
Speaker 2: to football. After calling a UC basketball game on Tuesday
2:06
Speaker 2: night in Lubbock, Texas, I headed to Indianapolis on Wednesday
2:10
Speaker 2: for the NFL scouting Combine. Unfortunately, I can only stay
2:14
Speaker 2: for about twenty four hours, but they were productive as
2:18
Speaker 2: I got the opportunity to discuss the draft and the
2:21
Speaker 2: Bengals with several of my favorite NFL analysts, beginning with
2:26
Speaker 2: Greg Cosell from NFL Films and the ESPN matchup show.
2:32
Speaker 2: It is always a treat to visit with my friend
2:34
Speaker 2: Greg Cosell at the NFL scouting combine. Let's start with
2:38
Speaker 2: the Bengals defense. It's no secret that they've struggled on
2:41
Speaker 2: that side of the ball over the last couple of years.
2:43
Speaker 2: Based on your film study, what stands out well.
2:48
Speaker 3: They obviously made some significant changes to play young players
2:51
Speaker 3: this year. Obviously, Barrett Carter became a full time starter.
2:55
Speaker 3: I forget what week it was, but it was approximated
2:57
Speaker 3: way through the season. I don't think he's truly a
3:01
Speaker 3: MIC player, so it'll be interesting to see what they
3:04
Speaker 3: do going forward. But they played, you know, Carter and
3:09
Speaker 3: Demetrius Night. Night played up from Week one, so they
3:12
Speaker 3: were playing a lot with two rookies. That's a tough
3:15
Speaker 3: deal to play with two rookies, just because of the
3:17
Speaker 3: nature of the NFL game, because it's more than just
3:19
Speaker 3: athletic movement. You know, there's so much at the linebacker
3:22
Speaker 3: position you have to understand intuitively. You know, they didn't
3:27
Speaker 3: get anywhere near a full season out of Stuart, their
3:30
Speaker 3: first round pick. I mean, I would think in an
3:32
Speaker 3: ideal world they would love this coming season to have Miles,
3:36
Speaker 3: Murphy and Stuart be their edge players. And you know,
3:40
Speaker 3: we finally saw Murphy, who does have physical traits. He's long,
3:44
Speaker 3: he's athletic. I'm not sure he's a super powerful guy,
3:47
Speaker 3: but he definitely improved as this year went on. So
3:51
Speaker 3: in an ideal world, it would be Stuart and Murphy
3:53
Speaker 3: on the edge. You know, Stuart's a fascinating study. We
3:56
Speaker 3: we probably didn't talk about him last year because we
4:00
Speaker 3: do this before the draft, so we didn't know that
4:02
Speaker 3: the Begels would draft him. But he's your classic case
4:05
Speaker 3: of a guy that just everything about his physical traits
4:08
Speaker 3: is really high level. I mean, he's almost freakish, but
4:12
Speaker 3: as a football player, he doesn't play that way. So
4:16
Speaker 3: now you look at him and then a coaching staff
4:18
Speaker 3: has to think I can get him to play that way. Unfortunately,
4:21
Speaker 3: he was hurt a lot, so he didn't really get
4:23
Speaker 3: the reps that they would have liked. So it's not
4:26
Speaker 3: as if his rookie year was a waste, but you're
4:29
Speaker 3: in some level still starting from the beginning. Now, they
4:33
Speaker 3: would love to have Stewart and Murphy be their edge
4:36
Speaker 3: guys because both guys are big enough to be edgesetters.
4:40
Speaker 3: Both guys are big enough to be run defenders, and
4:43
Speaker 3: both guys have enough athletic juice where they theoretically could
4:47
Speaker 3: rush the quarterback, you know, as we speak, and of
4:50
Speaker 3: course you and I are now speaking and at the combine,
4:53
Speaker 3: so you know, we don't know that, but that's what
4:55
Speaker 3: they'd ideally like, and because look last year, they just
5:02
Speaker 3: it was a struggle up front. I mean, I guess
5:04
Speaker 3: Joseph asaih he's a free agency not. My guess is,
5:07
Speaker 3: first of all, I don't think he's gonna command big,
5:09
Speaker 3: big dollars, but I would bet that he's not a
5:11
Speaker 3: big priority at this point, you know. I mean, if
5:14
Speaker 3: it was, if he was the kind of guy that
5:16
Speaker 3: you bring him back on a one year kind of
5:18
Speaker 3: minimum deal, you probably bring him back. Now he won't
5:21
Speaker 3: get big money, but I doubt he's he'll get more
5:23
Speaker 3: than a one year minimum deal. So you know, we'll
5:26
Speaker 3: see upfront. So the linebacker position is young players who
5:30
Speaker 3: can they continue to get better? You know, And the
5:33
Speaker 3: question is they draft at ten?
5:36
Speaker 1: Correct?
5:37
Speaker 3: You know, you know, with someone like Sonny Styles available
5:40
Speaker 3: at ten, he's a really good prospect who's only going
5:43
Speaker 3: to get better. Because he essentially was a safety who's
5:46
Speaker 3: played linebacker for two years and he's he's a little
5:49
Speaker 3: bit freakish athletically with his size and his movement, you know.
5:54
Speaker 3: So we'll see what they decide to do on the
5:56
Speaker 3: back end. You know, the safety position definitely needs an upgrade,
6:02
Speaker 3: you know, the corner position. You know, it's funny. I
6:04
Speaker 3: was having this conversation with our good buddy Jeff Hopson
6:08
Speaker 3: and talking about, uh, Hall, that's Hall, A Hill, that's Hill.
6:13
Speaker 3: And I remember watching him coming out of Michigan, and
6:15
Speaker 3: you and I may have discussed this. At Michigan. He
6:18
Speaker 3: was a safety in their base and a nickel in
6:20
Speaker 3: their sub. But when I watched him, I said, this
6:23
Speaker 3: guy has outside corner traits. And now it's turned out
6:27
Speaker 3: that way. He's probably their best outside corner year player too. Yeah,
6:31
Speaker 3: So I mean I think they'd beat They're comfortable with
6:34
Speaker 3: Hill and Turner on the outside. The question is who's
6:37
Speaker 3: going to play the slot, you know, because I don't
6:39
Speaker 3: think Newton has quite worked out exactly maybe the way
6:42
Speaker 3: they hoped, So they end up playing Uh I'm Davis, right,
6:46
Speaker 3: I was gonna say number thirty five, right, I was
6:48
Speaker 3: gonna say they played number thirty five, I could see
6:50
Speaker 3: him and I could remember his name, you know, and
6:53
Speaker 3: he's actually played better than Newton in the slot. So
6:55
Speaker 3: is he going to be back?
6:56
Speaker 1: They re signed him about a week ago.
6:58
Speaker 3: Okay, so he'llby So I mean they're probably comfortable with
7:00
Speaker 3: him if he has to play in the slot. So really,
7:03
Speaker 3: on the back end, it's the safety position that really
7:05
Speaker 3: needs to be addressed, you know, because when you're uncomfortable
7:09
Speaker 3: on the back end, then then that makes the coordinator
7:12
Speaker 3: gold and uncomfortable with pressure schemes. Because my sense is
7:16
Speaker 3: they probably felt like they were going to be more
7:19
Speaker 3: of a pressure defense this year with Al there and
7:22
Speaker 3: it didn't quite work out that way. And my guess
7:25
Speaker 3: is it's because he was uncomfortable with the back end.
7:27
Speaker 3: Because if you're if you're uncomfortable with the back end
7:29
Speaker 3: as a coach, you're not really sure you want to
7:33
Speaker 3: send pressure because if one guy makes a mistake or
7:36
Speaker 3: you don't feel that one guy can really do the
7:38
Speaker 3: job and coverage, you know, you're afraid you're going to
7:40
Speaker 3: give up a sixty yard touchdown. So you'd rather play
7:43
Speaker 3: a little more conservatively and not give that stuff up
7:47
Speaker 3: and you know, you know how that goes. Sometimes then
7:49
Speaker 3: it looks like you're just giving up way too many plays.
7:53
Speaker 1: Let me circle back to edge guys.
7:55
Speaker 2: Sure, where do you stand on traits versus perduction when
8:01
Speaker 2: evaluating edge players for the NFL?
8:04
Speaker 3: Wow, it's a great question. I think that the trades
8:09
Speaker 3: part needs to be parsed even further because in the NFL,
8:15
Speaker 3: it's always nice to talk about a guy being athletic,
8:18
Speaker 3: but in the NFL, you don't run around offensive tackles.
8:23
Speaker 3: So when you talk about quickness and suddenness, you're talking
8:25
Speaker 3: about first step. You're talking about off the ball. You're
8:28
Speaker 3: not talking about, you know, the third or fourth step. Now,
8:32
Speaker 3: bend is and flexibility is often talked about, and it's important,
8:37
Speaker 3: but I think what tends to translate more is power.
8:43
Speaker 3: You know, normally guys that have can do speed to power.
8:46
Speaker 3: And I remember having an awesome conversation a couple of
8:49
Speaker 3: years ago with Andrew Whitworth, who obviously knows more about
8:53
Speaker 3: tackle play than I do, and he said that it's
8:56
Speaker 3: all about power. He says, I if a guy cannot
9:00
Speaker 3: caused me issues with power, then he's gonna really have
9:04
Speaker 3: a hard time beating because Eventually he's got to get
9:07
Speaker 3: through me. The guys that try to run around me
9:10
Speaker 3: or that dance he said, eventually they got to get
9:13
Speaker 3: past me. So it's the power part that is the
9:17
Speaker 3: most important. And you know that's where Ruben bayin. You know,
9:20
Speaker 3: and again, who knows how this draft's going to play out.
9:23
Speaker 3: You know, as we speak now, probably ruben Bain doesn't
9:26
Speaker 3: get to ten. They may not even be looking for
9:28
Speaker 3: an edge guy. They may feel like, hey, we you know,
9:30
Speaker 3: we drafted Murphy in the first round a few years ago,
9:33
Speaker 3: we drafted Stewart in the first round last year. These
9:35
Speaker 3: guys now have to produce. But someone like Ruben Bay
9:38
Speaker 3: in his game is built on power and physicality that
9:41
Speaker 3: normally translates because you think of a Jared Verse, you
9:44
Speaker 3: think of a Will Anderson that normally translates. So traits
9:49
Speaker 3: are an odd, you know, a kind of odd conversation
9:52
Speaker 3: because you know, there's a phrase I heard a number
9:55
Speaker 3: of years ago, which now I've taken and used it
9:57
Speaker 3: because I think it's very visual motorcycle lean. The guys
10:01
Speaker 3: that can really bend the edge. That's a good trait
10:04
Speaker 3: to have. But if that's the only traits you have Like,
10:07
Speaker 3: if that's the way you have to win, then that's hard.
10:10
Speaker 3: Like someone like Nick Benito who's with Denver, who's developed
10:14
Speaker 3: over the years. He came in as a bend guy,
10:17
Speaker 3: but over the years he's developed a little more power.
10:20
Speaker 3: You have to be able to play off contact one
10:22
Speaker 3: way or the other. You know, whether it's running through
10:25
Speaker 3: a guy, whether it's a great hand move, you know,
10:28
Speaker 3: knocking his hand, whatever, you have to be able to
10:30
Speaker 3: play off contact. And so I think that which fits
10:33
Speaker 3: into the power part, even though some might not see
10:36
Speaker 3: it that way. So I think that the power part
10:39
Speaker 3: is probably number one for me. Do I love watching
10:42
Speaker 3: a guy bend because it looks pretty. You know, It's
10:45
Speaker 3: like the swimsuit competition for pass rushers. It looks pretty
10:49
Speaker 3: when a guy literally can bend and gets his his
10:52
Speaker 3: you know, his front knee literally you know this much.
10:55
Speaker 3: It's like pitchers in baseball, those guys you know that
10:58
Speaker 3: just take that stride and that they're this much off
11:01
Speaker 3: the ground. Tom he was my guy. I grew up
11:05
Speaker 3: in Queens. He was my guy. Right, that looks pretty,
11:08
Speaker 3: But I think, you know, so that's the way I
11:10
Speaker 3: look at at edge rushers. You have to be able
11:12
Speaker 3: to win at some point with power and playing off contact.
11:16
Speaker 2: I do think the Bengals are looking very carefully at
11:19
Speaker 2: this edge rusher class for the tenth pick. They need
11:22
Speaker 2: to improve their pass rush. It's one of the real
11:24
Speaker 2: concrete things that Duke Tobin has said since the end
11:28
Speaker 2: of last season. Based on everything I'm seeing and reading,
11:32
Speaker 2: I don't see a scenario where David Bailey is still
11:34
Speaker 2: there from Texas Tech. But maybe Ruben Bain because of
11:39
Speaker 2: the arm length. Maybe I don't know, but you really
11:42
Speaker 2: like them correctly.
11:43
Speaker 3: Well, I'll say this. This is a cliched statement, but
11:46
Speaker 3: it's true. Bain is just a really good football player. Now,
11:49
Speaker 3: he's a sought off, hyper physical, hyper intense player whose
11:54
Speaker 3: game is built on power and physicality. But he's not long,
11:58
Speaker 3: and the arm length will for some teams be an
12:00
Speaker 3: absolute issue. Because teams do studies, and I spoke to
12:04
Speaker 3: someone who's, you know, part of those studies. There's been
12:07
Speaker 3: no big time pass rusher at the NFL level with
12:11
Speaker 3: arms less than thirty one inches. Now we don't know
12:13
Speaker 3: what his all, you know, but he's probably going to
12:14
Speaker 3: be in that range. So if he end comes in
12:17
Speaker 3: at thirty and seven eighths. Does that mean you don't
12:19
Speaker 3: draft him? That's way beyond my pay grade. Dan, You know,
12:23
Speaker 3: I don't know how teams will look at that. All
12:25
Speaker 3: I know is there have been studies done and guys
12:28
Speaker 3: edge rushers with less than thirty one inch arms don't
12:30
Speaker 3: brush the quarterback in the NFL the way you'd like
12:33
Speaker 3: them to. But he's a really good football player, so
12:37
Speaker 3: you know that becomes you know, that becomes in the
12:39
Speaker 3: eye of the beholder. That's team specific.
12:42
Speaker 2: I am now rooting for Reuben Bain to have thirty
12:44
Speaker 2: and seven eighth inch arms.
12:46
Speaker 3: Yes, he's a good player. I mean he's he's and
12:50
Speaker 3: my guess is he's a little bit of a tempo
12:52
Speaker 3: center because he plays super hard on his hyper physical,
12:55
Speaker 3: hyper competitive, hyper intense. But like I said, he sought
12:59
Speaker 3: off and the arm length will be an issue for some.
13:03
Speaker 2: One quick update before my next question for Greg Ruben.
13:07
Speaker 2: Bain's measurements came in the day after our conversation, and
13:11
Speaker 2: his arm length is under thirty one inches at thirty
13:15
Speaker 2: and seven eighths. So if you've been thinking there's no
13:20
Speaker 2: chance he'll be available with a tenth pick, that might
13:23
Speaker 2: cause some teams picking ahead of the Bengals to pass
13:27
Speaker 2: on Bain, even though he had twenty and a half
13:30
Speaker 2: sacks and thirty three and a half tackles for loss
13:33
Speaker 2: in thirty eight games at the University of Miami, which
13:37
Speaker 2: studied Caleb Downs, the Ohio state safety safeties typically do
13:42
Speaker 2: not get selected in the top ten. It seems like
13:45
Speaker 2: there's a good chance that's going to happen with Caleb
13:48
Speaker 2: Downs this year.
13:49
Speaker 1: What do you think of them?
13:49
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's because it's not a quarterback class. Because
13:52
Speaker 3: normally all those guys get pushed down because four or
13:54
Speaker 3: five quarterbacks are going to go. That won't happen this year.
13:57
Speaker 3: Caleb Downs is another guy to because who's just a
14:00
Speaker 3: really good football player. But he's going to be five
14:03
Speaker 3: eleven and a half give her take, one hundred and
14:06
Speaker 3: ninety eight pounds, give her take. You know he's not
14:08
Speaker 3: Nick im Men worry he's not Derwin James. When I
14:11
Speaker 3: finished watching Caleb Downs, the two players that can you know,
14:15
Speaker 3: when I watch tape, sometimes guys popping, I don't. After
14:17
Speaker 3: I watch a guy I don't, you know, put my
14:18
Speaker 3: head in my hands for a half hour and think,
14:20
Speaker 3: who's he like it? Either Pops into my head or
14:22
Speaker 3: it doesn't. And two guys immediately popped into my head.
14:25
Speaker 3: Both very good football players, by the way, Buddha Baker
14:28
Speaker 3: and Antoine Winfield. You know, both really good players who
14:31
Speaker 3: can play on the back end, who can come downhill.
14:34
Speaker 3: You know, to me, downs is that guy just a
14:37
Speaker 3: really good football like he's going to come in He's
14:40
Speaker 3: going to be a Day one staughter. You know. Can
14:42
Speaker 3: I sit here and say he's going to be an
14:43
Speaker 3: All Pro? I don't know, but he's going to be
14:44
Speaker 3: a really good football player. You know. I can't get
14:48
Speaker 3: into whether like the Jet shoul draft, the MAT two
14:51
Speaker 3: or you know who knows. But he's a fun guy
14:54
Speaker 3: to watch because he's another hyper physical, hyper competitive guy.
14:57
Speaker 3: He's all over the field, never gives up up on
15:00
Speaker 3: a play, makes a ton of plays in pursuit, you know,
15:04
Speaker 3: willing to throw his body around in the right way.
15:07
Speaker 3: You know, he he he would upgrade your secondary. But
15:10
Speaker 3: he's not em and wary. You know, who's six y
15:13
Speaker 3: three and eighth and two hundred twenty pounds. You know
15:16
Speaker 3: he's not that guy.
15:18
Speaker 2: If he's not there at ten, I'd be surprised if
15:21
Speaker 2: the Bengals took a safety at ten, but they're almost
15:24
Speaker 2: certainly going to take one at some point. I know
15:27
Speaker 2: there are a couple of other ones that you like, and.
15:29
Speaker 3: The issue is did those guys get into the end
15:32
Speaker 3: of the first round because it's not you know, a
15:34
Speaker 3: great you know, guys aren't going to get pushed back.
15:37
Speaker 3: The guy who I really liked on tape was aj
15:40
Speaker 3: Halsey from LSU. He's a rocked up, muscled up probably
15:44
Speaker 3: six feet two, twenty to twenty five, physical as hell.
15:48
Speaker 3: He's a tempo setter. You know. I think if you're
15:51
Speaker 3: gonna play, can he play post safety? Yes? But I
15:56
Speaker 3: think in if you if you play a lot more
15:58
Speaker 3: quarters for across, I think that's his game. I mean
16:02
Speaker 3: he comes downhill, he will hit you. In the run game,
16:05
Speaker 3: he sees it well. On the back end. He could
16:08
Speaker 3: definitely play and cover two. Like I said, I don't
16:12
Speaker 3: know if he's a true post Could he play there
16:15
Speaker 3: because he did at LSU? Yeah, But I don't know
16:17
Speaker 3: if you draft him to say he's my post safety.
16:20
Speaker 3: But he's you know, like I said, he's a tempo center.
16:23
Speaker 3: He's an attitude player. He's a swagger guy, and he
16:27
Speaker 3: will hit you. I mean, he's one of those guys
16:29
Speaker 3: I really like his state.
16:31
Speaker 2: Has the value and or importance of safety grown.
16:35
Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely. And I remember the year that Steve Spagnolo
16:40
Speaker 3: was not coaching. He called me up because he met
16:43
Speaker 3: his wife in Philly when he was with the Eagles,
16:46
Speaker 3: and so they had a place in Philly, and he said, Hey,
16:48
Speaker 3: can I come in on Monday and watch tape just
16:50
Speaker 3: so I can stay up on the league. And I said, Spags,
16:53
Speaker 3: of course you can. You come in as many times
16:55
Speaker 3: as you want. And we had some great conversations that year,
16:58
Speaker 3: and he just talked about and how valuable the safety
17:01
Speaker 3: position was in how it expands your playbook and what
17:05
Speaker 3: you can do, because he said, hey, if my safeties
17:07
Speaker 3: aren't very good, that squeezes my playbook. There's things I'm
17:11
Speaker 3: not comfortable calling. And I'm not sure fans think of
17:13
Speaker 3: it that way, Dan, But safeties have become you know,
17:17
Speaker 3: there's so much more split safety now, where safeties have
17:21
Speaker 3: a pass responsibility, a run responsibility, man coverage responsibilities because
17:27
Speaker 3: essentially quarters are covered. Four becomes man if it's a
17:31
Speaker 3: two x two set by the offense and the slot
17:34
Speaker 3: guy runs vertically. Safeties have to match up man to man.
17:37
Speaker 3: So safeties have a lot of responsibilities now and they
17:41
Speaker 3: are really important pieces in the defense.
17:44
Speaker 2: We are visiting with the great Greg co Sell. The
17:46
Speaker 2: Bengals have devoted a lot of draft capital to defensive
17:50
Speaker 2: players over the last four.
17:51
Speaker 1: Or five drafts.
17:53
Speaker 2: Shamar Stewart, Miles Murphy, Chris Jenkins, DJ Turner, Dad Sailed,
17:57
Speaker 2: Demetrius Knight. Those are all first and second round Who
18:01
Speaker 2: are the real building blocks among those young guys for
18:05
Speaker 2: the Bengals going forward?
18:06
Speaker 3: Wow, Well, the guys I think that have to be
18:10
Speaker 3: building Let's put it that way, because you know they've
18:13
Speaker 3: played up to this point. You wouldn't say, you know,
18:15
Speaker 3: any of those guys are all pros right now. But
18:17
Speaker 3: I think there's three guys that have to be building blocks,
18:22
Speaker 3: the two edge guys, Stewart and Murphy and Dax Hill.
18:26
Speaker 3: Because if Dak's Hill, and I think he's shown that
18:29
Speaker 3: he can be a good corner, if he can become
18:31
Speaker 3: an even better corner with his size, his athleticism, his movement,
18:37
Speaker 3: then at least you know that he can match up
18:42
Speaker 3: man to man. You know, maybe he's not matching up
18:45
Speaker 3: man to of course, you have Jamar Chase, but maybe
18:48
Speaker 3: he's not matching up to that level of receiver, but
18:51
Speaker 3: he can match up to most receivers man to man,
18:55
Speaker 3: and you can then take the safety. In other words,
18:58
Speaker 3: you can make him maybe your boundary corner and let
19:01
Speaker 3: him play man to man depending on you know, if
19:04
Speaker 3: it's three by one set, which offenses play with a
19:06
Speaker 3: single boundary X receiver, you can almost have Dax Hill
19:10
Speaker 3: match him one on one and then have that boundary safety,
19:14
Speaker 3: you know, be a poacher, be part of the coverage,
19:16
Speaker 3: and that really gives you so many more options in coverage.
19:21
Speaker 3: So I think that those two guys that the edge
19:23
Speaker 3: rushers because they're also big enough to be edge shutters.
19:26
Speaker 3: I mean, Murphy and Stuart are not small little edge guys,
19:29
Speaker 3: so they can be edge shutters in a run game.
19:31
Speaker 3: Ideally they can rush the quarterback, and then if Dax
19:34
Speaker 3: Hill can become that kind of corner, that gives you
19:37
Speaker 3: so much more with what you can do defensively.
19:40
Speaker 2: The Bengals don't have a great interior pass rusher. They'll
19:45
Speaker 2: be looking for one in free agency if they can
19:47
Speaker 2: find it. They're obviously hoping to get one, maybe more
19:50
Speaker 2: in the draft if they can have you studied any
19:53
Speaker 2: guys in this draft class that would fit that description
19:56
Speaker 2: or not yet?
19:57
Speaker 3: Not there yet? Like I've looked at Kayden McDonald from
20:00
Speaker 3: Ohio State, who's not a pass rusher at this moment
20:03
Speaker 3: in time, but he's a ridiculously good run defender. Like
20:06
Speaker 3: I did not think Chris Jenkins coming out was a
20:09
Speaker 3: pass rusher. Now can he develop into one? That's that's
20:12
Speaker 3: always a hard question to answer. I'm obviously not with
20:14
Speaker 3: him every day. You know, I don't know how he's coached,
20:16
Speaker 3: but when he came out of Michigan, I did not
20:19
Speaker 3: see him as a pass rusher. So yeah, right now
20:23
Speaker 3: they don't have an inside pass rusher. I haven't done
20:26
Speaker 3: enough work with the tackles yet in the draft to know,
20:29
Speaker 3: you know, who those guys could be.
20:32
Speaker 2: We're six years into Joe Burrow's NFL career. He's been
20:36
Speaker 2: healthy for three Those three years have been spectacular, but
20:40
Speaker 2: obviously the Bengals are hoping that year seven is going
20:42
Speaker 2: to be a healthy year for Joe. Is there anything
20:45
Speaker 2: that he can do or the team can do to
20:49
Speaker 2: lessen the chance that he gets hurt again? Or is
20:51
Speaker 2: that just football the toe?
20:54
Speaker 3: You know, that's a fluky thing. I mean it's not
20:56
Speaker 3: you know, yeah, I mean I'm certainly not a a
21:00
Speaker 3: doctor or a trainer. I don't know the answer to that,
21:03
Speaker 3: but it's you know, even even the thing with his
21:07
Speaker 3: was his wrist a few I mean that was fluky too.
21:11
Speaker 3: So the wrist and the toe were really kind of
21:13
Speaker 3: fluky things. God. You know, for someone like myself who
21:17
Speaker 3: loves the quarterback position, I just love watching him play
21:20
Speaker 3: and I just hope, you know, he's one of those guys.
21:22
Speaker 3: Every week it's like, Hey, I can't wait to watch
21:24
Speaker 3: a Borrow. You know, I just hope you can play
21:27
Speaker 3: because you know, he's one of those guys too. He
21:30
Speaker 3: makes them competitive. I mean he's he's one of those guys,
21:33
Speaker 3: even with potential other weaknesses, he makes the Bengals a
21:37
Speaker 3: competitive team. So I just hope he can, you know,
21:39
Speaker 3: play seventeen games. I mean, he's so much fun to watch.
21:43
Speaker 2: We're several minutes into this conversation. I know you have
21:46
Speaker 2: another appointment coming up shortly, but let me ask you
21:48
Speaker 2: about the offensive line because normally when we meet at
21:51
Speaker 2: the combine, we get to that pretty quickly. This year,
21:54
Speaker 2: we've talked to Yeah, we've talked about a lot of
21:56
Speaker 2: other things that have not hit the old line. Because
21:59
Speaker 2: in the second half of last year they played well.
22:02
Speaker 2: Should the Bengals feel fairly comfortable about their aw line?
22:07
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, look, you know how it is in
22:09
Speaker 3: the league offensive honuman do get hurt. You want to
22:11
Speaker 3: have depth. But I thought Mims improved. I mean, Mims
22:14
Speaker 3: looks like he's going to be a good player, and
22:16
Speaker 3: he's got everything you want in a right tackle. Brown's
22:21
Speaker 3: left tackle right correct. I thought he played well. I
22:24
Speaker 3: was surprised because I did not love him coming out,
22:26
Speaker 3: but I thought Fairchild played well as a rookie, you know,
22:30
Speaker 3: well with a point where you think, hey, this guy
22:32
Speaker 3: can be a good left guard in the league. And
22:34
Speaker 3: like I said, I did not love him coming out,
22:36
Speaker 3: but he played well. Carris is you know he's he's
22:39
Speaker 3: not a free agent, is he?
22:40
Speaker 2: Cars They re signed him to another one year extension
22:43
Speaker 2: just before last year.
22:45
Speaker 3: Got it. So you know, he's just one of those
22:46
Speaker 3: solid centers you can line up and play with Carus
22:48
Speaker 3: any day of the week. I guess Risner Dalton Reisner.
22:52
Speaker 1: He is a free agent.
22:55
Speaker 3: Again, I don't know what guard's command. You know, I'm
22:58
Speaker 3: not up on that. You always want to have offensive linemen,
23:03
Speaker 3: you know, they certainly don't need to draft one in
23:05
Speaker 3: the first or second round. I don't know who the
23:07
Speaker 3: free agents are right now. I'm very draft focused right now.
23:11
Speaker 3: Maybe you sign a guy just you know, a guy
23:13
Speaker 3: that you hope if he has to play, can can start.
23:16
Speaker 3: Or maybe he's just you know, a piece that you
23:19
Speaker 3: have and you draft, you know, somebody in the fourth
23:22
Speaker 3: or fifth round. You know, that's what teams do, and
23:24
Speaker 3: you hope to develop them. But the old Lion as
23:27
Speaker 3: the year progressed, played pretty well, and I think Mims
23:30
Speaker 3: is a big key there because he's got big time traits.
23:34
Speaker 2: Yes, he is a big key in every way because
23:36
Speaker 2: he has one large human beings.
23:38
Speaker 3: But he's got pretty light feet for a man that size. Yeah, No,
23:42
Speaker 3: I was. I thought. I'm trying to remember. I thought
23:45
Speaker 3: Mims and was just his second year, yes, right, I'm
23:50
Speaker 3: trying to remember who the other guy was in that.
23:52
Speaker 3: It was Mims and somebody else in that draft class.
23:54
Speaker 3: So I thought had the best feet, you know, just
23:56
Speaker 3: the athletic feet. Now I can't remember, but Mims is,
23:59
Speaker 3: I mean, he can be a top to be honest,
24:01
Speaker 3: with you. If he keeps developing. And I don't know
24:03
Speaker 3: him personally obviously, but if he keeps developing, I think
24:06
Speaker 3: he's got traits to be a top five right tackle
24:08
Speaker 3: in the league.
24:09
Speaker 1: Couldn't agree with you more.
24:10
Speaker 2: It's certainly one of the best success stories they've had
24:12
Speaker 2: in the draft in recent years.
24:14
Speaker 3: So yeah, So the old line is not it's let's
24:18
Speaker 3: put it this way, it's not a problem.
24:21
Speaker 2: Reisner wants to be back. The Bengals have publicly said
24:23
Speaker 2: they're going to try to re sign him. You know,
24:26
Speaker 2: it always comes down to dollars and cents, But I'm
24:29
Speaker 2: guessing that gets done and they return that fivesome, which
24:33
Speaker 2: is always a great way to go into the season.
24:35
Speaker 3: Yeah, and Reisner, look, he's solid player, but I mean,
24:37
Speaker 3: I would doubt that someone's throwing a ton of dollars
24:40
Speaker 3: at him. I mean, he's a solid guard.
24:43
Speaker 2: One of the reasons I come to Indy is that
24:46
Speaker 2: I hope to have the opportunity to visit with you.
24:48
Speaker 2: This was awesome, as always, Thank you so much for
24:50
Speaker 2: your time.
24:51
Speaker 3: Thanks Dan, I always love it.
24:53
Speaker 2: I hope you enjoyed listening to Greg as much as
24:55
Speaker 2: I enjoyed talking to him. I feel like I could
24:59
Speaker 2: randomly call him on any day of the year and
25:02
Speaker 2: he'll sound like he just finished watching five Bengals games
25:05
Speaker 2: on tape. There are a lot of people out there
25:08
Speaker 2: doing great tape analysis on social media, including Bengals on
25:12
Speaker 2: the Brain YouTube post Joe Goodberry, who joined me on
25:15
Speaker 2: this podcast a few weeks ago, and I think Greg
25:18
Speaker 2: co Sell really helped popularize the idea of studying the
25:23
Speaker 2: All twenty two video and then making a complicated sport
25:27
Speaker 2: a little bit easier for the rest of us to understand.
25:31
Speaker 2: The Bengals Booth podcast is brought to you by pay Corps,
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Speaker 2: Health the best care for the best fans. Kettering Health
25:49
Speaker 2: is the official healthcare provider of the Bengals. Up next,
25:53
Speaker 2: another person who is kind enough to join me at
25:56
Speaker 2: the combine every year, the athletics draft guru Dane Brugler.
26:01
Speaker 2: I used to buy several draft guides every year, but
26:05
Speaker 2: that really isn't necessary anymore because of the Beast Danes
26:10
Speaker 2: incredibly comprehensive look at every player in the draft that
26:15
Speaker 2: comes with a subscription to the Athletic Dan. The three
26:20
Speaker 2: players that Bengals fans have been fixated on our Ohio
26:23
Speaker 2: State safety Caleb Downs and edge rusher's Reuben Bain from
26:27
Speaker 2: Miami and David Bailey from Texas Tech, they are all
26:30
Speaker 2: in your top nine and the Bengals select tenth.
26:34
Speaker 1: Can you make a case for.
26:35
Speaker 2: Why one or maybe two of those guys might be
26:39
Speaker 2: available at number ten?
26:41
Speaker 4: Absolutely, this is a top ten that's very unsettled. This
26:46
Speaker 4: is going to be a top ten where just draft
26:49
Speaker 4: good football players. That's gonna be the theme. It's not
26:51
Speaker 4: gonna be chasing upside, it's not going to be focusing
26:54
Speaker 4: specifically on treats. It's gonna be let's go get the
26:57
Speaker 4: good football player. And so a guy like Caleb Downs
27:01
Speaker 4: could go two, he could go twelve. I wouldn't be surprised.
27:05
Speaker 4: Positional value is something that'll be talked about at nauseum.
27:09
Speaker 4: You know, I think this draft, in the top ten,
27:12
Speaker 4: we're gonna have a safety, off all linebacker, a running back,
27:16
Speaker 4: a guy like Ruban Bain who's not your prototypical edge rusher.
27:19
Speaker 4: He's gonna have short arms. Some teams have them on
27:22
Speaker 4: the board as a three technique. So it's just a
27:24
Speaker 4: very unusual top ten and so try especially right now.
27:30
Speaker 4: Maybe we get a better sense when we be a closer,
27:32
Speaker 4: but right now I think it's wide open how the
27:34
Speaker 4: top ten picks are gonna play out.
27:36
Speaker 2: The Bengals need to improve their pass rush. You wrote
27:39
Speaker 2: recently that this draft is rich in top tier talent
27:43
Speaker 2: at edge rusher.
27:44
Speaker 1: How rich?
27:45
Speaker 2: How far down in this draft could the Bengals get
27:49
Speaker 2: somebody that could really help that pass rush.
27:51
Speaker 4: Yeah, this draft might not have a Miles Garrett, but
27:54
Speaker 4: in terms of depth, it is you feel good, second round,
27:57
Speaker 4: third round, maybe even the fourth round find a guy
28:00
Speaker 4: that is going to help your pass rush in some way.
28:03
Speaker 4: And so in my top one hundred, I had seventeen
28:07
Speaker 4: receivers and then sixteen edge rushers, and so those two
28:11
Speaker 4: positions are outstanding. And there's a lot of different types
28:14
Speaker 4: of guys. You know, if you want more power, you
28:16
Speaker 4: want more speed, you want somebody that really specializes in
28:19
Speaker 4: stopping the run. So I think that depending on a
28:23
Speaker 4: type of edge rusher you want, it could get really interesting.
28:27
Speaker 5: And the Bengals.
28:28
Speaker 4: Are They're interesting there because I don't think Reuben Bain
28:33
Speaker 4: fits necessarily exactly what they usually look for in terms
28:36
Speaker 4: of you know, long arms and.
28:39
Speaker 5: You know, so like it'd be a little bit outside
28:41
Speaker 5: the box.
28:43
Speaker 4: But so like, how would that compare it to a
28:45
Speaker 4: guy like Keldric Falk from Auburn who is more of
28:48
Speaker 4: that toolsy The trades are off the charts, he's twenty
28:52
Speaker 4: years old, doesn't turn twenty one until I think August
28:56
Speaker 4: or is that too very similar to what they drafted
28:58
Speaker 4: last year? Would they want to maybe go to a
29:00
Speaker 4: different direction. So the Bengals are in a very unique
29:04
Speaker 4: spot there where I could see them maybe bucking the
29:06
Speaker 4: trend a little bit and going a little bit different
29:10
Speaker 4: than you know, what they usually drafted the position. But
29:13
Speaker 4: at the same time, the leopard doesn't change his spots,
29:16
Speaker 4: so I could see either way.
29:18
Speaker 2: How similar is Keldrick Falk to Shamar Stewart.
29:22
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I think that they are similar, but
29:26
Speaker 4: they are different. You know, Stuart has probably a little
29:32
Speaker 4: more examples on his tape of how he's gonna win
29:38
Speaker 4: as a pass rusher, even though it didn't always manifest
29:40
Speaker 4: itself in the.
29:41
Speaker 5: Stat sheet where Keldrick Fall.
29:44
Speaker 4: A lot of times he was lined up as a
29:45
Speaker 4: four eye or a five technique or head up over
29:48
Speaker 4: the tackle, where he just wasn't allowed to rush as
29:53
Speaker 4: as many opportunities off the edge, And so I think
29:55
Speaker 4: that plays a part more than anything why he didn't
29:57
Speaker 4: have better numbers. Now, not saying anything against Stewart, but
30:02
Speaker 4: something that helps Fulk a lot is the intangibles, the
30:06
Speaker 4: character that Auburn coaches rave about him. He was a
30:09
Speaker 4: team captain this past year as a very young player.
30:13
Speaker 4: So there's a lot that I think teams are gonna
30:16
Speaker 4: come away with this week about the interviews with Falk
30:18
Speaker 4: that they just feel really encouraged about the person and
30:21
Speaker 4: the type of worker they're going to bring into the program.
30:24
Speaker 2: We're visiting with the athletics. Dane Brugler, let's talk about
30:27
Speaker 2: Caleb Downs. It's unusual for a safety to be selected
30:31
Speaker 2: in the top ten. What makes him so special that
30:34
Speaker 2: that's possible.
30:36
Speaker 4: He's a very smart and versatile player, and he's three
30:41
Speaker 4: years in college. He played for three different defensive coordinators,
30:44
Speaker 4: three different schemes, and in every single example, every single defense,
30:49
Speaker 4: he was the guy where he is changing everything for
30:52
Speaker 4: you this year matter Tricha doesn't run a very easy,
30:56
Speaker 4: simple defense. They put a lot on k the Down's plate,
31:00
Speaker 4: and so that intelligence factor that he's gonna be NFL
31:04
Speaker 4: ready from the get go. He's going to enter go
31:06
Speaker 4: into a locker room and help change the culture.
31:10
Speaker 5: That's the type of player that he is.
31:11
Speaker 4: And I think that it's like when you watch the
31:14
Speaker 4: Ohio State secondary on film, watch number two. He's the
31:18
Speaker 4: one that's getting everybody lined up and saying you do this,
31:21
Speaker 4: you do this, this, and that. I think it's a
31:23
Speaker 4: very underrated part of success. And just look at the Seahawks.
31:27
Speaker 4: We talk so much about nick Emmin worry about the
31:30
Speaker 4: rookie year. He had an all credit to him. But
31:33
Speaker 4: when you watch the Seattle Seahawks film, pay attention to
31:36
Speaker 4: Devin Witherspoon. Witherspoon is one, hey do this, you go
31:38
Speaker 4: do the same thing with He's telling Tyreek Woollen, hey
31:41
Speaker 4: you go do that.
31:41
Speaker 5: Like without Devin Witherspoon.
31:43
Speaker 4: That's the skeleton key that unlocks what that defense is
31:46
Speaker 4: on the back end. Caleb Downs can be that type
31:49
Speaker 4: of player for an NFL defense where he's making everybody
31:53
Speaker 4: right because of the communication and because all the different
31:56
Speaker 4: things he can do where he understands he quick to
31:59
Speaker 4: read pass, first run, quick to get to his.
32:01
Speaker 5: Depths, quick to drive on the football.
32:04
Speaker 4: This week's not going to be like a don't I
32:07
Speaker 4: don't expect him to test like a freak or anything
32:09
Speaker 4: like that. But I think it'll be fine. Okay, size,
32:11
Speaker 4: okay athlete. It'll be more of what he does in
32:15
Speaker 4: the interview process and how he impresses coaches and them saying, okay, yeah,
32:19
Speaker 4: we don't really look for a safety as early, but
32:21
Speaker 4: we could really use that type of commanding presence on
32:24
Speaker 4: the back end of our defense.
32:26
Speaker 2: The Bengals drafted linebackers in the second and fourth round
32:29
Speaker 2: last year. They started his rookies. Should they consider Sunny
32:33
Speaker 2: styles tenth overall?
32:35
Speaker 5: If he's there, consider absolutely? Yeah.
32:39
Speaker 4: I think obviously there's a level of how much do
32:43
Speaker 4: we want to let those young guys grow and give
32:46
Speaker 4: them a second season to okay, what kind of jump Because.
32:49
Speaker 5: It's it's hard to play linebacker in the NFL, and.
32:54
Speaker 4: Theoretically you should be a lot better in year two,
32:56
Speaker 4: and so I think nobody will have a better idea
32:59
Speaker 4: than the Bengals coaches of what what the expectations will
33:03
Speaker 4: be for those those two guys going to next year.
33:06
Speaker 4: But Sunny Styles is, you know, as clean of a
33:10
Speaker 4: prospect in this draft. I mean, I heard from two
33:11
Speaker 4: teams last night who told me that his interviews were
33:14
Speaker 4: just awesome, outstanding.
33:17
Speaker 5: So the person's awesome.
33:18
Speaker 4: The player six four, two forty four or five speed
33:22
Speaker 4: just turned twenty one years old. I think you can
33:24
Speaker 4: find a spot for a guy like that, and he's
33:27
Speaker 4: I was so impressed with a jump that he took
33:29
Speaker 4: this past year because you know, he was a safety
33:32
Speaker 4: his first two years, moves a linebacker and his twenty
33:35
Speaker 4: twenty four tape was okay, he would have been drafted
33:37
Speaker 4: probably some more Day two if he came out last year.
33:40
Speaker 4: He goes back for a senior year, and the difference
33:42
Speaker 4: it made in that one year, how much better he
33:45
Speaker 4: was as a linebacker, So impressive him. He is, in
33:48
Speaker 4: my opinion, one of the five best players in this draft.
33:51
Speaker 4: He has every The only knock I have on him
33:53
Speaker 4: as I wish he made more plays and coverage. There's
33:57
Speaker 4: not a lot of examples of plays on the football,
33:59
Speaker 4: but I think that it's kind of the next step
34:00
Speaker 4: for him. But besides that, it's a very very clean player.
34:05
Speaker 2: The Bengals are in the market for defensive tackles, especially
34:08
Speaker 2: if they can rush the quarterback. Peter Woods from Clemson
34:11
Speaker 2: is a name that has come.
34:12
Speaker 1: Up a lot.
34:13
Speaker 2: It's not super high on your board, I think in
34:16
Speaker 2: the thirties.
34:17
Speaker 1: Why what are your concerns about Peter Woods.
34:19
Speaker 4: I just wanted to see more on tape and I
34:22
Speaker 4: was super high on I'm coming in. He was my
34:24
Speaker 4: number one player in August in this draft because of
34:28
Speaker 4: the flashes he put on film in twenty twenty four
34:30
Speaker 4: and it's like, Okay, if he takes another step, we're
34:32
Speaker 4: talking about an eighty five percent version of Jalen Carter.
34:35
Speaker 4: You know, he had the flashes, said that type of ability. Unfortunately,
34:40
Speaker 4: we just didn't get to see that this year at Clemson.
34:43
Speaker 4: You know, there were times where he'd get washed out
34:46
Speaker 4: in the hole. There were times where you just didn't
34:48
Speaker 4: see the disruption as a pass rusher.
34:51
Speaker 5: So if he can just bottle.
34:53
Speaker 4: Up those flashes and turn it into consistency, yeah, sign
34:56
Speaker 4: me up. That's just it's a big projection for him.
35:00
Speaker 4: So I like Peter Woods, but I personally would not
35:04
Speaker 4: take them and as a top twenty five guy. I
35:06
Speaker 4: would consider Caleb Banks over him, who sixty six, three
35:10
Speaker 4: hundred and thirty pounds, thirty five inch arms, eleven inch
35:12
Speaker 4: hans you have to feel okay about medically, just you know,
35:16
Speaker 4: is he going to be able to hold up, say
35:18
Speaker 4: on the field. But if I'm gonna take a chance
35:20
Speaker 4: on one of those defensive tackles, it'd probably be him.
35:23
Speaker 2: If Caleb Downs is gone, I don't think there's another
35:26
Speaker 2: safety the Bengals would take at ten. But what about
35:30
Speaker 2: later in this draft? Who are some of the other
35:32
Speaker 2: safeties that you like.
35:34
Speaker 5: It's a really deep safety group.
35:36
Speaker 4: I Dylan Thieneman and McNeil Warren from Toledo or both
35:39
Speaker 4: guys that should go in the first round. If we're
35:42
Speaker 4: talking Day two. Aj Halsey from LSU is a really
35:46
Speaker 4: instinctive player. Zakey Wheatley from Penn State has a lot
35:50
Speaker 4: of ability. Love the way he drives on the football.
35:56
Speaker 4: I want to see how Genesis Smith, the Arizona safety,
35:59
Speaker 4: how tests. He's more of that Jesse Bates type of
36:04
Speaker 4: free safety where he can play both sidelines.
36:06
Speaker 5: He's really fluid.
36:08
Speaker 4: But the reason we're talking about him is like more
36:10
Speaker 4: of a third or fourth round pick is the tackling
36:13
Speaker 4: is needs to get better, need to have an intervention
36:17
Speaker 4: with him to, you know, ramp up the toughness a
36:19
Speaker 4: little bit. But again, that's when you're talking about safety
36:22
Speaker 4: in the third or fourth round. There's a reason they're
36:25
Speaker 4: getting drafted that area and not earlier. So you have
36:28
Speaker 4: to compromise on something. And so for a true center
36:32
Speaker 4: field skill set with dennisis Smith, you have to give
36:35
Speaker 4: up a little bit of the tackling, and so he
36:37
Speaker 4: could be an option at that point.
36:38
Speaker 5: But this is I think this is a deep safety group.
36:40
Speaker 4: I think every round I could circle somebody that was
36:43
Speaker 4: that I would say, Okay, if we want a safety
36:44
Speaker 4: in this round, I feel good about this guy.
36:47
Speaker 2: Most of us really focus on the first round, but
36:49
Speaker 2: anybody who's picked up the Beast knows that you study
36:52
Speaker 2: every player that is considered for this draft. Do you
36:56
Speaker 2: have a few favorites that are not first or second
37:00
Speaker 2: round guys, but guys that you really like for Day three?
37:03
Speaker 3: Sure?
37:03
Speaker 4: Absolutely, And I'll just give you I'll give you a
37:06
Speaker 4: few of my favorite stories from this draft. Keith Abney,
37:09
Speaker 4: Arizona State corner who probably goes in the third round.
37:13
Speaker 4: He was a three hundred meter national champion in the
37:17
Speaker 4: seventh grade for inline skating rollerblading, and he grew up
37:21
Speaker 4: like for ten years he was that was his number
37:24
Speaker 4: one sport. He wanted to take it as far as
37:26
Speaker 4: he could go Junior Olympics, and then football eventually took over.
37:29
Speaker 4: But you can't tell me some of the core balance
37:31
Speaker 4: and endurance that didn't come from what he did as
37:35
Speaker 4: a really competitive and really accomplished rollerblader growing up. Jack
37:40
Speaker 4: Kelly linebacker from BYU. He was a national champion BMX
37:43
Speaker 4: rider at the age of five, and so he didn't
37:46
Speaker 4: play football growing up because BMX took over his life.
37:49
Speaker 4: And once he got the high school, he said, oh,
37:51
Speaker 4: maybe I'll differentiate a little bit, pick up a different sport.
37:53
Speaker 4: Turns out he's pretty good at football too, and that
37:56
Speaker 4: fearless style that he you know, you have to have
37:59
Speaker 4: to do BMX racing, that shows on the football field.
38:03
Speaker 4: So no mystery where that came from. So I mean
38:06
Speaker 4: that those are two of my favorite stories. But there's
38:08
Speaker 4: a lot of those types of backgrounds and just different
38:13
Speaker 4: different paths and that that's my favorite part about this
38:16
Speaker 4: process is everyone's on the doorstep of the NFL, but
38:19
Speaker 4: they all got here in such different ways, and just
38:22
Speaker 4: peeling back the different different paths to get to this
38:25
Speaker 4: point is really fun and each one's very unique.
38:28
Speaker 2: Do you start on the Beast the day after the
38:31
Speaker 2: draft is finished?
38:31
Speaker 4: This year, I do take a step back in the
38:34
Speaker 4: month of May, but I mean, I'll tell you what.
38:36
Speaker 4: I'm already started on the twenty twenty seven because not
38:40
Speaker 4: on purpose, but you can't help but pick up random
38:43
Speaker 4: things when you're talking to a coach.
38:45
Speaker 5: I'm with a.
38:45
Speaker 4: Scout and something gets brought up about a player for
38:47
Speaker 4: next year, And so the twenty twenty seven Beast is
38:50
Speaker 4: already in the works. And then June first, when I
38:53
Speaker 4: really kick it into gear. Got a nice starting point
38:56
Speaker 4: to get going.
38:58
Speaker 2: I can't wait for this year to come out. It
39:00
Speaker 2: helps me so much when I do my homework. Thanks
39:02
Speaker 2: so much for giving me some of your time here
39:04
Speaker 2: at the Combine.
39:04
Speaker 5: It's not the Combines I get to meet with you,
39:06
Speaker 5: so thank you.
39:08
Speaker 2: A couple of follow ups from my interview with Dane.
39:12
Speaker 2: I watched Ohio state safety Caleb Downs meet with the
39:15
Speaker 2: media on Thursday and Indy and he was specifically asked
39:19
Speaker 2: about the positional value of a safety when it comes
39:23
Speaker 2: to being picked near the top of the draft.
39:26
Speaker 6: At the end of the day, it's who's the best defender.
39:28
Speaker 6: I mean, it's not like really positional value. It's who
39:32
Speaker 6: affects the game, and if you affect the game in
39:35
Speaker 6: a lot of ways, that's what's most important. So that's
39:39
Speaker 6: really all I can worry about. Honestly, I can't worry
39:41
Speaker 6: about what anybody else says or what the.
39:43
Speaker 3: Coaches have done.
39:44
Speaker 6: At the end of the day, my film is what
39:45
Speaker 6: it is, and they're gonna make a decision based off it.
39:48
Speaker 3: Up, Are you in the best offender here? Yeah?
39:52
Speaker 6: I mean, I mean I feel confident every time I
39:54
Speaker 6: step on the field. So if I would say that
39:56
Speaker 6: I walked on the field and thought anybody was better
39:59
Speaker 6: than me, yeah, that's.
39:59
Speaker 2: Not Caleb is the number two defender on Dane Brugler's
40:03
Speaker 2: Big board, behind his Ohio State teammate r Vel Reese
40:07
Speaker 2: and another Buck guy, Sunny Styles is third as for
40:12
Speaker 2: Auburn edge rusher Keldric Falk. He's fifteenth overall on the
40:16
Speaker 2: Brugler Board and number seven among defensive players. Falk generated
40:21
Speaker 2: buzz at the Combine when his measurements came out on Thursday.
40:25
Speaker 2: He's a hair under six six, weighs two hundred and
40:28
Speaker 2: seventy six pounds, and his arms were nearly thirty five
40:32
Speaker 2: inches long. All of that is great, but he had
40:36
Speaker 2: ten sacks in three years with the Tigers and only
40:39
Speaker 2: two this season. Former NFL player and scout Bucky Brooks
40:44
Speaker 2: is one of the NFL Network's top draft analysts. In
40:48
Speaker 2: his latest mock draft, the three guys who many Bengals
40:51
Speaker 2: fans are focused on were all gone. Bucky has Texas
40:56
Speaker 2: tech pass rusher David Bailey going number two to the Jets,
41:00
Speaker 2: Caleb Downs going number five to the Giants, and Ruben
41:03
Speaker 2: Bain going seventh to Washington. He has the Bengals taking Falk.
41:09
Speaker 2: We discuss that and much more so.
41:13
Speaker 7: If you lose Trey Hendrickson, you have Shimore Stewart coming back,
41:16
Speaker 7: but you gonna need to upgrade, and you think about
41:18
Speaker 7: the division, who you're playing, You got to have multiple
41:20
Speaker 7: guys and fault. What you have is more of a
41:22
Speaker 7: run stopping defensive edge player who has potential to develop
41:26
Speaker 7: into maybe a high level pass rusher.
41:29
Speaker 3: But I think about his.
41:30
Speaker 7: Size, his length, is athleticism and traditionally how the Bengals
41:33
Speaker 7: have operated. He would fit that profile just because of
41:36
Speaker 7: the length and the way that he plays.
41:37
Speaker 2: Again, some people have said he is this year. Shamar
41:40
Speaker 2: Stewart didn't necessarily have great production in college.
41:44
Speaker 1: Is that fair?
41:45
Speaker 3: You know?
41:45
Speaker 7: It's funny because the production. You look at the stat
41:47
Speaker 7: line and you say, okay, he had two sacks. But
41:49
Speaker 7: when you ask people in the SEC to say, hey, man,
41:51
Speaker 7: he's a dominant player. He's young, twenty one years old,
41:54
Speaker 7: really explosive against the run, has a bit of a
41:57
Speaker 7: weird frog tens. Yeah, so there's something to that in
41:59
Speaker 7: terms of if you're scared because you took Shamar Stewart,
42:02
Speaker 7: do you want to go that route again or do
42:04
Speaker 7: you want to more approven commodity.
42:06
Speaker 3: The one thing that we also know Cincinnati tends to like.
42:09
Speaker 7: Their big ten players and sunny styles. You have a
42:11
Speaker 7: freak athlete who they know very well because they seen
42:14
Speaker 7: him because he's in their own backyard. I would not
42:16
Speaker 7: be surprised to see him as a pick there, and
42:19
Speaker 7: after he probably works out at the combine, there's gonna
42:21
Speaker 7: be more buzzed about him being a top ten pick.
42:23
Speaker 2: They drafted two linebackers last year in the second and
42:26
Speaker 2: fourth rounds. Those guys started as rookies. If Sonny Styles
42:30
Speaker 2: is there at number ten, do you say, hey, it's
42:32
Speaker 2: great that those guys played last year, but this guy's
42:35
Speaker 2: a difference maker.
42:36
Speaker 7: Well, he is a difference maker, and I think a
42:38
Speaker 7: lot of it is Al Golden switched a little bit
42:40
Speaker 7: in the middle of the season. They went to more
42:41
Speaker 7: of a base defense for three defense with three linebackers
42:44
Speaker 7: on the field, kind of getting done, and it worked
42:46
Speaker 7: for them. I don't think you bypassed good players, and
42:49
Speaker 7: I think you look at your roster and you don't
42:51
Speaker 7: have a first round player position at one those linebacker spots.
42:54
Speaker 7: I think you find a way to make it work.
42:56
Speaker 7: He's talented. Al Golden has done a really good job
42:59
Speaker 7: of getting defense to play respectable defense to last half
43:02
Speaker 7: of the season. To me, I think is about best
43:05
Speaker 7: player available at those spots. You don't want to kind
43:07
Speaker 7: of gamble on projections. Who's the best player that can
43:10
Speaker 7: come and give us that production right away.
43:12
Speaker 2: In your first mock draft, you had the Bengals taking
43:15
Speaker 2: Caleb Downs. Is that the dream for Cincinnati if he's there?
43:19
Speaker 3: I think so.
43:20
Speaker 7: I mean the defense hasn't been right in the back
43:22
Speaker 7: end since Jesse Bates Love. And when you really think
43:24
Speaker 7: about Cincinnati and how important it is to have someone
43:27
Speaker 7: who's not only a high end traffic cop, a high
43:30
Speaker 7: IQ player, but a playmaker. He is a playmaker. You
43:33
Speaker 7: can do a bunch of different things in the box.
43:35
Speaker 7: The versatility is there, and I just think he will
43:37
Speaker 7: be a natural fit. And when you talked about it,
43:40
Speaker 7: because safety normally in the top ten is not viewed
43:43
Speaker 7: as a market position, he very well could be right.
43:45
Speaker 7: There could be a match made of heady.
43:47
Speaker 2: Let me go back to what I said off the top.
43:49
Speaker 2: Those three guys are the players that Cincinnati fans have
43:52
Speaker 2: been fixated on. Which of the three do you think
43:55
Speaker 2: is most likely to still be there at ten if
43:59
Speaker 2: the Bengals had things follow their way.
44:01
Speaker 7: Caleb Downs is most likely to be there, just in
44:03
Speaker 7: safety position, and when you look at the needs of
44:05
Speaker 7: the teams in front of them, safety would be more
44:08
Speaker 7: of a luxury at him. I think I had Caleb
44:09
Speaker 7: Downs projected to go to the Giants at five. The
44:12
Speaker 7: Giants need a right tackle and so depending on what
44:14
Speaker 7: happens in cre agency, they may have to spend that
44:17
Speaker 7: big there.
44:17
Speaker 3: Outside of that, I don't know of another sure.
44:20
Speaker 7: Team that I could put Caleb Down's there and given
44:24
Speaker 7: the need, given the familiarity, because he played in the backyard,
44:28
Speaker 7: he could be in play attempt or visiting.
44:30
Speaker 2: With Bucket Brooks from the NFL Network, let's talk about
44:32
Speaker 2: defensive tackle Peter Woods. You've got him going nineteenth in
44:36
Speaker 2: your latest mock. Is he the best defensive tackle in
44:40
Speaker 2: this draft?
44:41
Speaker 1: And what are his strengths and weaknesses?
44:43
Speaker 3: It might be the most talented.
44:44
Speaker 7: I can't say he's the best because his production dip
44:46
Speaker 7: last year at Clemson, But in terms of talent, when
44:49
Speaker 7: you watch the tape size, speed, first step, quickness, hands
44:55
Speaker 7: that have some violence in them, he's a really talented player.
44:58
Speaker 7: You got to figure out why wasn't a production there
45:01
Speaker 7: his final season, But there's no doubt that when you
45:03
Speaker 7: look at the flashes on tape, he could be a dominant,
45:06
Speaker 7: disruptive player at the point of attack.
45:08
Speaker 2: The Bengals need to improve their pass rush. How deep
45:11
Speaker 2: is this draft in pass rushers?
45:13
Speaker 7: Oh, it's deep, and you always can find pass rushes
45:15
Speaker 7: at live every level. But look when you go all
45:18
Speaker 7: the way down to even the bottom of the first round,
45:20
Speaker 7: top of the second cash is Howell and some of
45:23
Speaker 7: those guys that are there that are fast and athletic.
45:26
Speaker 3: TJ.
45:27
Speaker 7: Parker like, there are guys that are available to make
45:30
Speaker 7: things happen. Is about the identification and understanding who's around,
45:35
Speaker 7: who could be in play?
45:36
Speaker 3: Do we need to move? Can we sit and pick? All?
45:38
Speaker 3: Those things kind of matter when it comes to pass rushers.
45:40
Speaker 2: Do you have a defensive player or a couple of
45:42
Speaker 2: defensive players that aren't necessarily first round picks, but guys
45:46
Speaker 2: that you really like and think maybe others are undervaluing
45:50
Speaker 2: them a little bit.
45:52
Speaker 7: Cal lewis safety linebacker from Pitt. He is really really
45:57
Speaker 7: interesting when you watch him play. He went down to
45:59
Speaker 7: the Senior Bowl and I pressed. But when you watch
46:00
Speaker 7: his tape, man he plays with his hair on fire.
46:02
Speaker 7: He is all over the place. He can make things happen.
46:05
Speaker 7: If you talk about a guy who's a friends first
46:07
Speaker 7: round pick at safety again, Thinneman the safety from Oregon.
46:12
Speaker 7: He is a freak athlete played at Perdue, had six
46:15
Speaker 7: interceptions as a freshman, led the team the next year
46:17
Speaker 7: in tackles, goes to Oregon, makes a bunch of plays. Look,
46:21
Speaker 7: we haven't talked about him now, but there'd be a
46:22
Speaker 7: buzz about him when we come out of the combine.
46:25
Speaker 2: You had to call him recently where you listed the
46:27
Speaker 2: seven teams in their Super Bowl window, the Bengals did
46:31
Speaker 2: not make your list. Hopefully they weren't too far back
46:34
Speaker 2: from number seven.
46:35
Speaker 1: But why not?
46:36
Speaker 3: Defense? I think it's the defense.
46:37
Speaker 7: I think that's the one thing when you look at offensively,
46:40
Speaker 7: they have everything that you could wish for. Maybe I
46:42
Speaker 7: would say a running back, a dominant running back kind
46:46
Speaker 7: of make that offense pop when you think about t
46:48
Speaker 7: Higgins and Jamar Chason on the outside, what it.
46:50
Speaker 3: Looked like previously with Joe Mixon. So offensively, just that tweek.
46:54
Speaker 7: Defensively is where it has And I'm not even saying
46:57
Speaker 7: that you have to play great defense, but you have
46:59
Speaker 7: to be middle of the pack. You have to be
47:01
Speaker 7: able to play Bemba, don't break, don't give up explosive plays.
47:04
Speaker 3: You don't want to engage in shootouts every week.
47:06
Speaker 7: So if they can find a way to play good defense,
47:09
Speaker 7: and some of that can be helped by the way
47:10
Speaker 7: that Zach Taylor operates on offense, Maybe we don't operate
47:15
Speaker 7: an up tempo, maybe we learn how to kind of
47:18
Speaker 7: scale it back and control.
47:19
Speaker 3: The clock a little bit with our offense.
47:21
Speaker 7: There are things that can do, but I would say
47:22
Speaker 7: the defense is the one thing that prevents the Bengals
47:24
Speaker 7: from being in that conversation. But coming off last year,
47:27
Speaker 7: we've seen things can turn around quickly in this league.
47:29
Speaker 7: So who's to say that the Bengals can't be in
47:31
Speaker 7: that mix.
47:31
Speaker 3: All over again.
47:32
Speaker 2: I think they're seventh in available cap space, They've got
47:35
Speaker 2: the tenth pick, they've got all of their high picks.
47:39
Speaker 1: Can they turn the defense around that quickly?
47:41
Speaker 3: Yes, I mean we saw the Patriots do it. Yeah.
47:44
Speaker 7: You have to have a plan, and you have to
47:45
Speaker 7: target the right guys, and your spending has to be economical,
47:51
Speaker 7: meaning you can't.
47:52
Speaker 3: Overpay for you guys.
47:53
Speaker 7: You got to get good guys, but you don't want
47:55
Speaker 7: to overpay where province you can get another good player.
47:57
Speaker 7: They tend to be kind of thrifty when it comes
47:59
Speaker 7: to I think the Bengals can get it done. You
48:01
Speaker 7: gotta tell her to get the right guys, and then
48:03
Speaker 7: you got to enhance whatever you have in free agency.
48:07
Speaker 7: You got to make sure you add some pieces in
48:09
Speaker 7: the draft because you gotta have some young players that
48:11
Speaker 7: can have some of these older players that are gonna
48:12
Speaker 7: come on board.
48:14
Speaker 2: I think if we sat down and had this conversation
48:16
Speaker 2: over the past several years, we would be talking about
48:19
Speaker 2: the Bengals offensive line. It seemed year after year it
48:21
Speaker 2: was They've got to fix the offensive line.
48:23
Speaker 1: Have they fixed it?
48:24
Speaker 2: Because in the second half of this past season it
48:26
Speaker 2: played well.
48:27
Speaker 3: Yeah, they played well.
48:28
Speaker 7: And also help said, when Joe Burrow is healthy and available,
48:33
Speaker 7: he's gonna make them look good because the ball comes out,
48:36
Speaker 7: you can release every olible.
48:37
Speaker 3: He's gonna make.
48:37
Speaker 7: Sure that he protects himself kiss the ball out of
48:39
Speaker 7: his hands. So it's a combination of that. But look,
48:41
Speaker 7: they've been solid. Like they've been solid upfront, you always
48:44
Speaker 7: want better. You always want to be able to dominate
48:46
Speaker 7: upfront because when you dominate at the point of attack.
48:48
Speaker 3: It makes the game easy.
48:50
Speaker 7: They're good enough upfront to be able to get it
48:52
Speaker 7: done with the weapons they have on the outside.
48:54
Speaker 2: There's some University of Cincinnati players that are gonna be
48:57
Speaker 2: selected in this draft. Jake Golday is I will be
49:00
Speaker 2: the first one will be as selected. The Godfather Dante
49:03
Speaker 2: Corleone is on the list. Tight end Joe Royer is
49:05
Speaker 2: on the list. Any thoughts on any of those three guys.
49:10
Speaker 3: Goda's impressive.
49:11
Speaker 7: God is impressive because he has some defensive lines, some
49:14
Speaker 7: edge rush in his background. He can play off ball linebacker.
49:18
Speaker 7: He's really a jack of all trades. He can do
49:19
Speaker 7: a bunch of different things. Size, his length, the way
49:23
Speaker 7: that he plays in the box.
49:24
Speaker 3: He's a really good player.
49:25
Speaker 7: He's gonna test fairly well here for his sigh, so
49:27
Speaker 7: he's gonna be in play the titand that you talked
49:29
Speaker 7: about Royer really intriguing. He's really intriguing because the production
49:33
Speaker 7: was there two seasons ago. Dipped a little bit this year,
49:36
Speaker 7: but man, when I look at my nose on him,
49:38
Speaker 7: I love everything about him. A true h back gets open,
49:41
Speaker 7: hasse wiggle. Both of those guys have a chance to
49:44
Speaker 7: be Day two picks.
49:45
Speaker 2: He played in the NFL, scouted in the NFL. The
49:48
Speaker 2: Bengals have used a lot of draft capital in recent
49:51
Speaker 2: years on defensive players. Miles Murphy, Shamar Stewart, DJ Turner,
49:55
Speaker 2: Dax Zill, Chris Jenkins, Demetrius Knight. All of those guys
49:58
Speaker 2: were taken in the first or second rounds. Do you
50:01
Speaker 2: see some building blocks. We talked about the need to
50:04
Speaker 2: improve the defense from that group of guys, do you
50:07
Speaker 2: see some building blocks for the defense going forward?
50:09
Speaker 7: I'm more optimistic about the group, but I would say
50:11
Speaker 7: they've been a little bit of a disappointment based on
50:14
Speaker 7: how I like those players coming out and.
50:16
Speaker 3: How they've played. I think a lot of it is
50:18
Speaker 3: like what.
50:18
Speaker 7: Can we do to kind of put the pieces of
50:20
Speaker 7: the puzzle together to make sure that they're at their best.
50:24
Speaker 7: There's some intrigue about what the Bengals are have building,
50:28
Speaker 7: but they got to put it together on the grass
50:30
Speaker 7: and so some of that is on Golden some of
50:31
Speaker 7: that is on the personnel staff.
50:33
Speaker 3: All hands on deck when it comes to fixing the defense.
50:35
Speaker 2: You are jumping from interview to interview. I appreciate your
50:38
Speaker 2: time today, Thanks so much, and keep up the great work.
50:41
Speaker 3: Hey, thanks for having me. I loved it.
50:43
Speaker 2: NFL Network provides live coverage of the NFL Scouting Combine
50:48
Speaker 2: through Sunday. That's going to do it for this episode
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