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The Life of Lynn Conway · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I'm welcome to Stephane.
0:07
Speaker 1: Never told you protection of I Heart Radio. And today
0:19
Speaker 1: we are thrilled once again be joined by the fabulous
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Speaker 1: Bridgetad coworker friend. Yes, first recording session of the New year.
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Speaker 1: Oh that's right, happy first recording. How was your your
0:35
Speaker 1: weirdo Christmas? How was your New year? Bridget weird Christmas
0:38
Speaker 1: was super fun? Thank you for asking. It involved all
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Speaker 1: the staples. I hoped it had drunkenness, crazy outfit, fire hits,
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Speaker 1: dancing um. But then sadly, right after that, I got covid.
0:53
Speaker 1: Oh I know, I am recovering from covid um, which
0:57
Speaker 1: it was not how I planned to spend the are
1:00
Speaker 1: part of the holiday. So my New Year's was just
1:03
Speaker 1: really spent sweating and moaning, not for any kind of
1:09
Speaker 1: fun reason, because I was in discomfort. That turns so quickly. Wow, Well,
1:19
Speaker 1: I'm glad you're okay. How are you feeling today? Much better?
1:23
Speaker 1: I mean I unfortunately I got COVID before I was
1:25
Speaker 1: able to be boosted. And so if anyone is listening
1:28
Speaker 1: and they are like, I'll take in their sweet time
1:30
Speaker 1: to get their booster shot, don't do that um my
1:32
Speaker 1: partner also got COVID and he is he was boosted
1:35
Speaker 1: and recovered so much quicker than me. So I'm feeling
1:38
Speaker 1: a lot better. But it really does linger, Like don't
1:41
Speaker 1: let anybody tell you that. Oh, Macron is like, oh
1:44
Speaker 1: it's very mild, like that might mean you don't need
1:46
Speaker 1: to go to the hospital, but it definitely like lingers
1:50
Speaker 1: and you feel like garbage for quite a while, right,
1:54
Speaker 1: I mean that's the report I've been hearing, is like
1:56
Speaker 1: everybody saying it was a mild case, but that doesn't
1:58
Speaker 1: necessarily mean you're not acted or asymptomatic. Literally you're just
2:02
Speaker 1: not at the hospital and you may have the hundred
2:05
Speaker 1: and four favor all the problems and it may last
2:08
Speaker 1: longer than the flu. But yeah, it sounds like being
2:11
Speaker 1: boosted as the way to go. So sorry, Bridget, Yeah,
2:16
Speaker 1: it's okay. I mean, it could have been a lot worse,
2:18
Speaker 1: and I'm I'm happy to be on the men, but yeah,
2:20
Speaker 1: it was a good excuse to stay in bed and
2:22
Speaker 1: watch binge watch shows, so I was happy about that. Well, yeah,
2:26
Speaker 1: it's funny because Samantha and I it was like right
2:32
Speaker 1: before all the cron like we you know, heard about it,
2:35
Speaker 1: but it was before everyone was like, oh my god,
2:37
Speaker 1: it's everywhere. We went to the movies, um and we
2:42
Speaker 1: saw The Matrix and Spider Man. We did a double
2:44
Speaker 1: feature and I after that the news came out everyone
2:49
Speaker 1: had at kron and I was convinced I had it,
2:51
Speaker 1: even though I had no proof, like there's no symptoms
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Speaker 1: or anything. But I essentially stayed in on New Year's
2:57
Speaker 1: as I find I'm not going anywhere I'm gonna see anybody.
3:02
Speaker 1: And it was actually very lovely. It was nice, right,
3:06
Speaker 1: I mean to the point that I think for introverts
3:09
Speaker 1: like myself is now just like okay, well I might
3:12
Speaker 1: have COVID, sooy, I can't I can't go, so sorry,
3:16
Speaker 1: I don't know, such a good, ready made excuse like
3:19
Speaker 1: I might have COVID. I'm worried about COVID. Thinking about
3:23
Speaker 1: COVID like such a good excuse to not have to
3:25
Speaker 1: do things you don't really want to do. I'm like,
3:28
Speaker 1: this is how I live in my comfy forever. I
3:30
Speaker 1: keep mentioning comfies and they are not a sponsor. They
3:35
Speaker 1: need to be a sponsor at this point because I'm
3:37
Speaker 1: always cold and I'm looking at you bridget because you're
3:39
Speaker 1: actually in sleeveless and I'm like, oh my god, and
3:41
Speaker 1: it's sunny where you're sitting as where we are in
3:44
Speaker 1: the darkness and depths of despair, apparently in my comfy
3:48
Speaker 1: but I'm like, wow, this is a drastic difference between
3:51
Speaker 1: us and you. So I am like the other side
3:54
Speaker 1: of the coin, which is that I live in an
3:56
Speaker 1: old apartment and we have old school like radiator heat.
4:00
Speaker 1: We're not really able to control, so uncomfortably warm in
4:04
Speaker 1: my bood window open, even though there's snow on the ground.
4:11
Speaker 1: That is very, very different. We got like a hint
4:13
Speaker 1: of snow in Atlanta and cranking up my radiator. I
4:18
Speaker 1: also have a radiator that I it's tricky to control,
4:21
Speaker 1: but I think I got it figured out. You open
4:22
Speaker 1: the one in the bathroom halfway and you're going to
4:25
Speaker 1: be fine. Yeah, has radiator heat like you have. You
4:30
Speaker 1: have like a weird mechanism of life. You gotta do this,
4:33
Speaker 1: gotta do that. A window like it's it's a delicate art. Yeah.
4:36
Speaker 1: When I first moved in here, I was like, I
4:38
Speaker 1: asked my landlord, what is that? And he looked at me.
4:40
Speaker 1: He said, it's a radiator. You're gonna have to figure
4:43
Speaker 1: that out, like, oh, okay, yes, well okay, now that
4:50
Speaker 1: we've checked in, Bridget, I am so excited with the
4:53
Speaker 1: topic you bought today because I didn't know this story
4:56
Speaker 1: and it's an amazing story. Um, so you tell us
5:00
Speaker 1: what we're going to be talking about today, Yes, I'm
5:02
Speaker 1: so excited to. Um, you know one of my favorite
5:05
Speaker 1: things in the world. That's really talking about overlooked figures
5:08
Speaker 1: in history, the history of technology and the Internet, of
5:10
Speaker 1: which there are many, and I feel like they can
5:12
Speaker 1: really tell us a lot about how our identity is
5:15
Speaker 1: often determined who gets remembered and who gets overlooked, even
5:18
Speaker 1: when someone is responsible for pretty much changing the world,
5:23
Speaker 1: like the person that we're going to be discussing today,
5:25
Speaker 1: Lynn Conway. Lynn Conway is an amazing historical figure. She's
5:30
Speaker 1: still alive, but she essentially changed the world. She is
5:33
Speaker 1: the reason why we have things like personal computers, smartphones, tablets, iPads,
5:37
Speaker 1: all of that, and yet her story almost went overlooked
5:41
Speaker 1: because of transphobia. Right yeah, and it is quite the
5:48
Speaker 1: story and quite the journey. Um, and still still alive today,
5:53
Speaker 1: so that's awesome. Um, still making changes also awesome, But
5:58
Speaker 1: can we get into some of the early history here. Yes.
6:02
Speaker 1: So Lynn Conway she was born in nineteen thirty eight
6:06
Speaker 1: and was assigned mail at birth, but from an early
6:08
Speaker 1: age she knew there was more to her story as
6:10
Speaker 1: it pertained to her gender. U. Her mom was studying
6:12
Speaker 1: anthropology at Columbia, and she would flip through her mom's
6:16
Speaker 1: school textbook sort of looking for any kind of answers
6:18
Speaker 1: or perspectives that spoke to how she knew she was feeling. UM.
6:22
Speaker 1: And there's a really lovely profile of Lynn Conway in
6:26
Speaker 1: Michigan Engineering News, so definitely check that out. But in
6:29
Speaker 1: that profile, she says, it seemed like people in other
6:32
Speaker 1: cultures has found different ways to deal with what I
6:34
Speaker 1: knew I was feeling, but then that became scrambled. But
6:36
Speaker 1: the thought that what I was feeling was that I
6:38
Speaker 1: was gay, but no one ever talked about these things. Um.
6:41
Speaker 1: When Conway was fourteen, she read a new story about
6:44
Speaker 1: the former Army private Christine Jorgensen, who was the first
6:47
Speaker 1: person in the United States to publicly announce a gender transition,
6:50
Speaker 1: and that really changed everything for Lynn Conway. She said
6:53
Speaker 1: from reading that story she knew what she needed to do,
6:56
Speaker 1: like she realized, like I am going through the same thing,
6:59
Speaker 1: and this is what I want to do. When it
7:01
Speaker 1: really set her out on this journey to discover her identity. Wow,
7:07
Speaker 1: I really couldn't imagine in that date and time being
7:11
Speaker 1: in that place like it is difficult as it is
7:14
Speaker 1: today in Oh my god, I said, the year of
7:19
Speaker 1: being a part of the queer community in general, even
7:22
Speaker 1: no matter what, I just you know, not to put
7:23
Speaker 1: too much of my personal life out there. I just
7:26
Speaker 1: had a big discussion with my parents about acceptance of
7:29
Speaker 1: the queer community point blank, not not anything outside of
7:33
Speaker 1: not me coming out, just just what it was. And
7:36
Speaker 1: it was a little bit combative from my parents that
7:38
Speaker 1: just then trying to accept the queer community in general
7:42
Speaker 1: and talking about what that is in relation to their
7:44
Speaker 1: conservative ideas. So I can't imagine if those are the
7:48
Speaker 1: hard conversations we're having today, I can't imagine what it
7:52
Speaker 1: would have been like back then. So what was her
7:55
Speaker 1: coming of age story? Like, what what was it that
7:59
Speaker 1: we need to know of because I can't Again, like
8:01
Speaker 1: my heart just like is pounding at the idea of
8:04
Speaker 1: what she went through. Yeah, it's at that's such a
8:06
Speaker 1: good point. And when I was putting together this outline
8:09
Speaker 1: of her of her life, that was the thing that
8:11
Speaker 1: I kept getting struck by the ways in which we
8:14
Speaker 1: have come so far as a society in terms of
8:16
Speaker 1: accepting but also the ways in which we have a
8:19
Speaker 1: lot further to go as in terms of sort of
8:22
Speaker 1: accepting and supporting uh folks who are on our journey
8:26
Speaker 1: right And so um Conaway initially tried to transition while
8:29
Speaker 1: she was studying M I T in the fifties, and
8:31
Speaker 1: so she basically started taking hormones that she had procured
8:33
Speaker 1: on her own. And then she talked to a friend
8:35
Speaker 1: who was in medical school to see if he could
8:37
Speaker 1: help her connect to a doctor who might be able
8:40
Speaker 1: to help her. And this friend ended up taking her
8:42
Speaker 1: to a dean at the college, and that dean told
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Speaker 1: her that she did not stop taking these hormones on
8:47
Speaker 1: her own, that she would end up at a mental institution.
8:50
Speaker 1: And this fear of being institutionalized and also arrested is
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Speaker 1: something that really marked Lin Conway's life. You know, back then,
8:59
Speaker 1: you know, if you were if you were to you know,
9:01
Speaker 1: transition or Canadas trans in a lot of places, you
9:04
Speaker 1: could just be outright arrested, but also the threat of
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Speaker 1: being institutionalized in a mental institution. And you know, I
9:11
Speaker 1: it's again, it's one of those things that it makes
9:14
Speaker 1: me so sad that even today there are people that
9:17
Speaker 1: equate being trans with being mentally ill or being a criminal.
9:21
Speaker 1: Like it's it's one of those things that obviously it
9:24
Speaker 1: was so salient to lind Conway back in the fifties,
9:27
Speaker 1: but it's not like we've unfortunately, it's not like we
9:30
Speaker 1: have completely moved beyond that, because there are certainly still
9:33
Speaker 1: people out there today who believe, oh, if you're trans,
9:36
Speaker 1: you belong in prison, you belong in an institution. You know,
9:39
Speaker 1: you're you're not quote unquote normal. And yeah, it's just
9:42
Speaker 1: is one of those ways that makes me, on the
9:45
Speaker 1: one hand, marvel at how far we've come, but also
9:48
Speaker 1: lament that we have so much further to go. Yeah, yeah,
9:52
Speaker 1: for sure. I mean just all of the laws we've
9:56
Speaker 1: seen pass, the antitrans laws, it's just ongoing ing, and
10:00
Speaker 1: it's this constant onslaught and you know, it's targeting in
10:04
Speaker 1: a lot of cases young young children, like people in schools,
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Speaker 1: and it's so damaging and so toxic, and I can
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Speaker 1: imagine for Conway, this that fear and being told by
10:19
Speaker 1: the Dean like this was a legitimate fear was a
10:24
Speaker 1: huge setback. Oh absolutely. I mean Lynn Connaway talks about
10:29
Speaker 1: her time at M I t as like fairly traumatic
10:32
Speaker 1: after this really disappointing current of events when she was
10:35
Speaker 1: trying to transition. Initially, she kind of just put transitioning
10:38
Speaker 1: at the back of her mind. She got married, she
10:40
Speaker 1: became a parent, she started working at IBM. Um At
10:43
Speaker 1: this time in Lynn's life, she from the outside seemed
10:46
Speaker 1: to kind of have a picture of perfect life. She
10:49
Speaker 1: was making major moves and innovations at IBM, which at
10:52
Speaker 1: the time was the seventh largest corporation in the whole world.
10:55
Speaker 1: And while she was working at IBM, by all accounts,
10:58
Speaker 1: she was kicking asked, you know, she invented a hardware
11:01
Speaker 1: protocol that enabled the out of order command processing most
11:04
Speaker 1: computers still rely on today. But all of this, all
11:08
Speaker 1: of this, these accomplishments, and all of this like fantastic
11:11
Speaker 1: domestic life that she that she seemed to be living,
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Speaker 1: was put into jeopardy because of transphobia, and that transphobia
11:18
Speaker 1: would really alter the trajectory of her life. I can't
11:34
Speaker 1: imagine a person who has that much stress on in
11:39
Speaker 1: their lives and that much conflict being able to like,
11:42
Speaker 1: what would she have really accomplished if she was able
11:45
Speaker 1: to be fully accepted as who she was at that
11:48
Speaker 1: point in time. And you know, and the other thought is,
11:50
Speaker 1: like her friend really betrayed her. I can't imagine uh
11:55
Speaker 1: trying ever coming out again, or even questioning again, or
11:59
Speaker 1: even saying anything out loud because the person that she
12:01
Speaker 1: trusted literally ranted her out in order to have this
12:06
Speaker 1: agenda pushed against her, saying, nah, you better stay in
12:10
Speaker 1: the norm o a k A. What we think is normal,
12:14
Speaker 1: or you are going to be criminalized essentially for who
12:17
Speaker 1: you are. And I'm just like, uh everything, Uh yeah,
12:23
Speaker 1: That's something that I think about a lot when it
12:25
Speaker 1: when it comes to things like transphobia. You know how
12:28
Speaker 1: much brilliance does the world miss out on because of transphobia.
12:32
Speaker 1: Glynn Conaway accomplished a lot, but could she've accomplished so
12:35
Speaker 1: much more if she wasn't putting up with this? And
12:37
Speaker 1: so I think about transpolkes today, you know, the kinds
12:41
Speaker 1: of like ridiculous legislation that they have to spend their
12:44
Speaker 1: time combating the kinds of ridiculous myths and stereotypes and
12:48
Speaker 1: misinformation about who they are and their identities. If they
12:52
Speaker 1: didn't have to spend their time countering that kind of nonsense,
12:55
Speaker 1: what could they be accomplishing? And so I always wonder,
12:58
Speaker 1: not only is it completely unfair unacceptable that trans folks
13:02
Speaker 1: have to put up with that, but we all miss out,
13:05
Speaker 1: like we all miss out on contributions that can make
13:07
Speaker 1: our lives better or we're interesting and more creative when
13:11
Speaker 1: marginalized people are saddled with these kinds of you know,
13:15
Speaker 1: this kind of nonsense like an onslot of laws and
13:18
Speaker 1: misinformation about who they are, right, Yeah, I feel like
13:23
Speaker 1: that we talked about that a lot on here and
13:26
Speaker 1: all the things that you know, the stories that aren't
13:28
Speaker 1: even being told, and then that impacts what people think
13:32
Speaker 1: or who people think are doing in technology or Stanfield
13:36
Speaker 1: in general, um, who are making these these big moves
13:39
Speaker 1: and you know, still using this technology. That's if we
13:43
Speaker 1: don't know, we don't know about her and all Conway,
13:48
Speaker 1: even though she kind of put this transitioning on the
13:53
Speaker 1: back burner and never really left her mind, right, that's right.
13:59
Speaker 1: So eventually she learned about the pioneering gender transition work
14:02
Speaker 1: of Dr Harry Benjamin Um. He was a famous indo
14:05
Speaker 1: chronologist and sexologist who was really known for his clinical
14:08
Speaker 1: work with transpolkes. And she decided, I want to work
14:11
Speaker 1: with this doctor. This is the doctor who was going
14:13
Speaker 1: to help me. And this is something that I find
14:15
Speaker 1: so heartbreaking that was in that Michigan engineering profile I
14:19
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, It sounds like Conway and her then spouse
14:22
Speaker 1: had really worked out like a solid plan of the
14:25
Speaker 1: logistics of how this transition was going to work for
14:28
Speaker 1: their family. They decided they were going to get a
14:29
Speaker 1: divorce and that Conway would start working with Dr Benjamin
14:32
Speaker 1: to transition, and that she was going to pay child
14:34
Speaker 1: support from this IBM salary that she had had, and
14:37
Speaker 1: they decided that she was going to stay in the
14:39
Speaker 1: lives of their children and that the children would call
14:42
Speaker 1: her aunt right, And so it sounds like as a
14:44
Speaker 1: family unit, they had really ironed out how this was
14:48
Speaker 1: going to work. And according to another really compelling piece
14:51
Speaker 1: I read in Forbes by Jeremy Alessandre, Conway's immediate family
14:55
Speaker 1: and IBM, like her coworkers at IBM, were actually pretty
14:59
Speaker 1: accepting and supportive of her desire to transition at first,
15:02
Speaker 1: like even though this was you know, the fifties, the sixties,
15:05
Speaker 1: like they were kind of okay with that and like
15:08
Speaker 1: we're supporting this choice. However, when IBM's corporate medical director
15:13
Speaker 1: learned that Conway was planning to transition in he told
15:16
Speaker 1: CEO Thomas J. Watson Jr. Who fired Conway to avoid
15:20
Speaker 1: the public embarrassment of employing a trans woman, and so
15:24
Speaker 1: all of this work that that Conway had done with
15:28
Speaker 1: her then spouse to to iron out the logistics of
15:30
Speaker 1: how this is going to work, you know, was basically
15:33
Speaker 1: pulled from under her. And this really, like it sounds
15:37
Speaker 1: like this was like a completely destabilizing thing in her life.
15:41
Speaker 1: Oh God, I mean yeah, absolutely. If you think you
15:43
Speaker 1: have a plan and excited about at least having um
15:47
Speaker 1: forward steps and then having something that is so traumatic
15:51
Speaker 1: that once again is betraying you essentially something that you
15:56
Speaker 1: are so excited about and not even excited about just
16:00
Speaker 1: trying to live your life as you truly are. I
16:02
Speaker 1: can't imagine how this would have just deflated you. I've
16:06
Speaker 1: I've been without a job, I've been fired, and that
16:09
Speaker 1: sense of self is gone and self worth feels like
16:11
Speaker 1: you're it's just a loss of yourself. So someone who
16:14
Speaker 1: can't even express themselves losing even more of themselves. Holy crap.
16:19
Speaker 1: And I can't on top of that, like this again, y'all,
16:22
Speaker 1: Like my Christmas was a doozy. But this again kind
16:27
Speaker 1: of comes back to my conversation with my pears of like,
16:29
Speaker 1: this is why these laws are important, This is why
16:33
Speaker 1: anti discrimination laws need to be in place. And when
16:36
Speaker 1: we talked about tugging at the strings, which is what
16:38
Speaker 1: is happening under the Supreme Court, which is what we're
16:40
Speaker 1: talking about every day. Still, um, these are things like
16:44
Speaker 1: this can happen, and it truly I can't imagine what
16:48
Speaker 1: the impact was for her to be fired during the
16:51
Speaker 1: middle of the things that she thought she could maybe
16:54
Speaker 1: finally find herself. Yeah, it's so sad. It really seems
16:58
Speaker 1: like it started like ad onward spiral in her life.
17:02
Speaker 1: You know, she had to divorce her spouse while losing
17:05
Speaker 1: her sole source of income, which you know, obviously, as
17:07
Speaker 1: you just described, like makes it that much more difficult
17:10
Speaker 1: when you your source of income has gone, your identity
17:12
Speaker 1: that was attached to having this like pretty big deal
17:15
Speaker 1: job being not just being taken from you in this way,
17:19
Speaker 1: but like your contributions. You know, she was someone who
17:22
Speaker 1: kicked ass, who really made a lot of contributions, and
17:25
Speaker 1: being fired like this like meeting those contributions and all
17:28
Speaker 1: of that work just sort of going overlooked because of transphobia.
17:32
Speaker 1: And so it really sounds like this like it was
17:35
Speaker 1: a really dark time for her. The California Social Services
17:38
Speaker 1: tried to keep her way from her kids, and Conway's
17:40
Speaker 1: then ex spouse decided that she could not have any
17:43
Speaker 1: contact with them because she was worried that if Conway
17:45
Speaker 1: was in her kid's life that they would be taken
17:47
Speaker 1: by the state. And at the time, her kids were
17:49
Speaker 1: just babies. They were two and four years old, And
17:52
Speaker 1: this sounds like something that really stuck with Conway. In
17:55
Speaker 1: this profile, she recalls that tore me up. Let me
17:58
Speaker 1: tell you, the hardest part about the whole thing was
18:00
Speaker 1: that I really felt like a mom to them. And again,
18:03
Speaker 1: just what a domino effect, a negative domino effect, being
18:08
Speaker 1: fired for being trans caused in her life, losing her income,
18:12
Speaker 1: losing that identity, breaking up her family, and she you know,
18:16
Speaker 1: she knew this was going to be a really tough
18:18
Speaker 1: process and She relied on her lessons that she had
18:21
Speaker 1: learned from this, like lifetime love of outdoor adventures like
18:23
Speaker 1: canoeing and rock climbing, to steady herself. She described it, Now,
18:27
Speaker 1: I had a plan to get across the river, she said.
18:30
Speaker 1: I could see the steps I had to make. I
18:32
Speaker 1: could see the dangers and how to protect against them.
18:34
Speaker 1: The only problem was I didn't know where I'd end
18:36
Speaker 1: up on the other side. So even though this had
18:39
Speaker 1: cost her her job, her family, her domestic life, she
18:43
Speaker 1: still continued to work with Dr Benjamin to transition right.
18:47
Speaker 1: And there were so many, as that quote described, challenges
18:54
Speaker 1: and obstacles beyond what we've already talked about, which is
18:58
Speaker 1: already a lot, so so, so so much. Um so,
19:02
Speaker 1: can you talk about some of the challenges that we're
19:05
Speaker 1: that conway faced around this transition, Absolutely so, as a
19:09
Speaker 1: lot of trans folks will probably tell you some of
19:11
Speaker 1: the logistics around transition. You know, things like changing your name,
19:15
Speaker 1: getting new identification and paperwork canna be a big part
19:18
Speaker 1: of navigating trans identity so that you can work and
19:21
Speaker 1: ear an income and have a bank account and get
19:22
Speaker 1: a place to live. Even today, this process is really
19:25
Speaker 1: complicated and sometimes like prohibitively expensive. Uh. And again I'm
19:30
Speaker 1: sad to say that not a lot. You know, it
19:31
Speaker 1: was hard back then, and unfortunately it's it's hard today.
19:35
Speaker 1: Unfortunately a lot of trans folks don't have the supporter
19:37
Speaker 1: resources they need to navigate it. According to the National
19:40
Speaker 1: Transgender Discrimination Survey, only one fifth of trans people who
19:44
Speaker 1: have transition have been able to update all of their
19:46
Speaker 1: ideas and records with their new gender, and one third
19:50
Speaker 1: have not been able to update any of their ideas
19:52
Speaker 1: or records. Um Luckily for Conway, she was able to
19:55
Speaker 1: use connections that Dr Benjamin had in Oakland, California to
19:58
Speaker 1: get it done quickly with as you might imagine, was
20:01
Speaker 1: really really important to avoid suspicion back then, because you know,
20:05
Speaker 1: it could easily turn unsafe if somebody suspected, you know
20:09
Speaker 1: that you were transitioning or that you were trans and
20:12
Speaker 1: so being able to navigate this quickly was of the
20:14
Speaker 1: utmost importance for her. She has this quote. She says,
20:18
Speaker 1: you were an undocumented alien from Mars. You don't have
20:20
Speaker 1: a birth certificate. How are you going to get a job.
20:22
Speaker 1: This was the sixties. You can think of it like
20:24
Speaker 1: being a spy in a foreign country. If you were
20:26
Speaker 1: found out, you'd be dealt with immediately. If not by
20:28
Speaker 1: the police, then my people on the streets. Um. And
20:31
Speaker 1: so it's probably clear that why after actually going through
20:35
Speaker 1: this transition, Conway started the period of her life but
20:38
Speaker 1: she refers to as her the stealth phase of her career. Okay,
20:42
Speaker 1: so this entire thing feels like it should be a
20:45
Speaker 1: giant movie, right, should be a featured movie somehow, whether
20:49
Speaker 1: it's like uh, coming of age and or just overall like, yeah,
20:53
Speaker 1: it couldn't like a spy movie in the industry, but
20:55
Speaker 1: it's not. I'm just saying that from her quote in itself.
20:58
Speaker 1: But it's an amazing account of all of the things
21:02
Speaker 1: that she has gone through. Feel like, hello, actors, this
21:05
Speaker 1: is an Oscar yes level of performers if you can
21:09
Speaker 1: get it, and it should be done by a twins
21:11
Speaker 1: woman obviously, Yes, can you talk I want to see this.
21:18
Speaker 1: Can you talk about this stealth base? But yeah, I'm
21:20
Speaker 1: really into the movie now. Yes. So in Conway changed
21:24
Speaker 1: her name, hit her gender identity, and started looking for
21:26
Speaker 1: work and computing. Eventually, she found a job as a
21:29
Speaker 1: contract programmer, which is like pretty entry level, but because
21:32
Speaker 1: she is like a badass. She pretty quickly moved up.
21:37
Speaker 1: She later worked at Memorex and then landed what I'm
21:40
Speaker 1: calling the big account you know in movies and someone's like, oh,
21:42
Speaker 1: we got a big account, Like this was Conway's like
21:45
Speaker 1: her big account working at Xerox as Palo Alto Research Center,
21:49
Speaker 1: which is a huge, huge deal. And again, because she
21:53
Speaker 1: is a badass, she immediately started like kicking ass, just
21:56
Speaker 1: like she had before at IBM before getting fired. So
21:59
Speaker 1: that is to look own city and my my making
22:01
Speaker 1: that up is at the beginning. Yeah, I think that's
22:05
Speaker 1: like that like the Pilicon Valley area, you were, like,
22:08
Speaker 1: that was like where so many of the technological innovations
22:13
Speaker 1: that like we still have today that really shaped like
22:16
Speaker 1: where computers and technology and smartphones ended up going. So
22:20
Speaker 1: much of that research happened right there. So like the
22:23
Speaker 1: big account, So she literally was at the beginning of
22:26
Speaker 1: what is known as one of the biggest technological industrial
22:29
Speaker 1: times of our age. Wow. Absolutely, yeah, absolutely, And again
22:34
Speaker 1: like that alone even if like, like I find her
22:38
Speaker 1: story so fascinating and inspiring, but like that alone is
22:41
Speaker 1: a huge deal, right, Like we haven't even gotten into
22:43
Speaker 1: some of the other parts of her life. But that alone,
22:46
Speaker 1: being a trans woman at the forefront and the precedice
22:49
Speaker 1: of all of these things that would go on to
22:51
Speaker 1: revolutionize all of our lives is so interesting to me,
22:54
Speaker 1: Like that alone would be a huge accomplishment. Yes, and
22:59
Speaker 1: speaking of of there were many other accomplishments that she
23:04
Speaker 1: she was taking part in during this time, right, that's right.
23:08
Speaker 1: So I have to give a little bit of a
23:10
Speaker 1: caveatlet like, I am not an engineer, so engineers who
23:13
Speaker 1: are listening, don't come after me if I say the
23:14
Speaker 1: wrong thing. I'm I'm summarizing. I am a I am
23:18
Speaker 1: a non hard tech person, summarizing someone who was like
23:22
Speaker 1: one of the most brilliant tech minds on the planet.
23:24
Speaker 1: So give me some just know that. So, her work
23:28
Speaker 1: completely revolutionized how microchips were designed, and she sometimes called
23:32
Speaker 1: the Hidden Hands, like that's her nickname for this work
23:35
Speaker 1: and how it led to the tech revolution in the
23:36
Speaker 1: eighties and nineties, and again it's like a big part
23:39
Speaker 1: of the reason why we have smartphones and personal computers.
23:42
Speaker 1: But even while she was accomplishing all of these important innovations,
23:45
Speaker 1: she really couldn't own them because of her identity. Again,
23:48
Speaker 1: she says that she was working in sort of stealth
23:51
Speaker 1: mode where she was just kind of purposely staying behind
23:54
Speaker 1: the scenes despite creating these innovations that would literally go
23:57
Speaker 1: on to change the world. Um and during this time,
23:59
Speaker 1: her train in's identity was not public knowledge. She only
24:02
Speaker 1: told close friends or like hr people or people who
24:05
Speaker 1: were needed to like do her security clearance, And she
24:08
Speaker 1: purposely made herself scarce and stayed behind the scenes, you know,
24:10
Speaker 1: hence the nickname the Hidden Hand. But that meant all
24:13
Speaker 1: of her accomplishments and innovations they also stayed behind the
24:17
Speaker 1: scenes too. And you know, it's one of those things
24:19
Speaker 1: where this is not like you know, people are like, oh,
24:23
Speaker 1: women's history is all of our history, or black history
24:26
Speaker 1: is all of our history, or trans histories all of
24:28
Speaker 1: our history. This is you know, everybody uses a computer
24:32
Speaker 1: or a smartphone for the most part, and like, transphobia
24:35
Speaker 1: almost kept us from having a full accounting of this
24:37
Speaker 1: history that shaped all of our lives, right like Lin
24:40
Speaker 1: Conway touched like her work touched all of us, and
24:45
Speaker 1: we almost did not get a full accounting of it
24:48
Speaker 1: because of the harmful legacy of transphobia and transphobic systems. Okay,
25:05
Speaker 1: can we first say that the Hidden Hand is the
25:09
Speaker 1: title of the movie, right right, if there are any
25:12
Speaker 1: like movie exact listening like the Hand in Hand perfect.
25:18
Speaker 1: Maybe I've been watching Way to Me martial arts film,
25:20
Speaker 1: but I'm like, wait, wait, wait, this is like Asian
25:23
Speaker 1: level of martial arts stealth movie. I don't know what's happening,
25:27
Speaker 1: but I'm seeing it. Maybe just needs to be transformed
25:30
Speaker 1: into that. I don't know, um, but yeah, I hate that.
25:35
Speaker 1: This is once again when we talk about women in history,
25:39
Speaker 1: especially women in marginalized communities, how they literally have to
25:43
Speaker 1: shrink in order to accomplish what they have to do
25:46
Speaker 1: quote unquote, to live what they need to do and
25:49
Speaker 1: be who they need to be. To shrink and disappear
25:52
Speaker 1: into the background so they don't make too much noise.
25:56
Speaker 1: And that is what has been taught for so long,
25:58
Speaker 1: and this is one of the prime examples for so
26:01
Speaker 1: many specially again within the queer community. Yeah, within like
26:05
Speaker 1: women colors, especially black women, being told yeah, you can
26:08
Speaker 1: do it, but you don't be loud about it because
26:10
Speaker 1: then you're just gonna cost too much of a ruckas
26:12
Speaker 1: and your personal life. You just being you will be
26:16
Speaker 1: a distraction, And I'm enraged right now just thinking about
26:19
Speaker 1: it as I continue on, because this is such a
26:22
Speaker 1: pattern with our society and the misogynistic idea overall, that
26:26
Speaker 1: this is how it should have been, and this is
26:28
Speaker 1: how everybody accepted it and was okay with it. And
26:32
Speaker 1: I'm reading all the things that you put in here,
26:34
Speaker 1: and I'm like, wow, wow, wow, Like, how how do
26:38
Speaker 1: you keep going? How do you continue to persevere and
26:42
Speaker 1: create these amazing things when there's so much against you,
26:45
Speaker 1: when you're being continually told don't exist point blank? I
26:50
Speaker 1: mean I I it's it's enraging. And it's like, you know,
26:54
Speaker 1: you were talking about these conversations you were having over
26:56
Speaker 1: the holidays with your family. I think for a lot
26:59
Speaker 1: of people it's exact me what you said. It's I
27:01
Speaker 1: don't hate queer people. I don't hate trans people. I
27:05
Speaker 1: just don't want to. I don't want to think I
27:07
Speaker 1: have to think about them. I don't want them to
27:08
Speaker 1: take up too much space, like this idea that you know.
27:11
Speaker 1: I remember having similar conversations with my family where they
27:14
Speaker 1: would be like, well, I just don't want to shove
27:16
Speaker 1: in my face, and it's like, no one shoving it
27:19
Speaker 1: any like like. For for some people, just existing is
27:23
Speaker 1: shoving it in your face, right, just like taking up
27:25
Speaker 1: space and being yourself is equated with like quote shoving
27:29
Speaker 1: it in someone's space. And so I I agree. I
27:31
Speaker 1: think that it's such a pattern where women, queer folks,
27:35
Speaker 1: trans folks, black folks, folks of color. The only way
27:38
Speaker 1: that we're told that we can safely exist is if
27:41
Speaker 1: we shrink ourselves and sort of try to disappear and
27:44
Speaker 1: try to stay off the radar. And it breaks my
27:46
Speaker 1: heart that that's what Lynn Conway had to do. But again,
27:50
Speaker 1: what could we acco what kind of world could we
27:52
Speaker 1: live in if all these folks didn't feel like that's
27:55
Speaker 1: what they had to do just to exist, I mean
27:58
Speaker 1: literally to be able to say I'm here and this
28:01
Speaker 1: is who I am in the story. And she's not
28:03
Speaker 1: asking for recognition, she never was. She just wanted to be.
28:07
Speaker 1: And I think that's where I I want to throw things,
28:10
Speaker 1: throw things in lots of people, especially obviously the people
28:13
Speaker 1: who are ignorant and are continue to spread these types
28:17
Speaker 1: of hate and this type of environment, saying that the
28:22
Speaker 1: only way that we are happy is if my norm
28:26
Speaker 1: from way back when, which is uh, staped in misogyny
28:30
Speaker 1: staped and patriarchy staped in racism that if this exists,
28:35
Speaker 1: that I'm okay as long as you don't you you
28:38
Speaker 1: don't exist in my world and I don't have to
28:40
Speaker 1: think about you. And that's just a whole other level.
28:43
Speaker 1: But you know what, if this is the movie, I
28:45
Speaker 1: feel like this is the arc where she's becomes triumphant. Yeah, yes, yes,
28:49
Speaker 1: so this is where I think it gets so interesting.
28:51
Speaker 1: So basically, Hanaway had made all of these big contributions,
28:55
Speaker 1: not just during her time at RATS, but also going
28:57
Speaker 1: back to when she was still at IBM, and you know,
29:01
Speaker 1: at this point, none of these contributions were really attributed
29:04
Speaker 1: to her. In computer historian began investigating her early innovations
29:08
Speaker 1: at IBM, which tipped her off that other people had
29:11
Speaker 1: been taking credit or had been like kind of sort
29:13
Speaker 1: of low key taking credit for the work at IBM
29:17
Speaker 1: that she had done under a different name. She wanted
29:19
Speaker 1: to correct the record, but in order to do so,
29:22
Speaker 1: she knew that she would need to open up about
29:23
Speaker 1: her identity and explain why somebody with a different name
29:26
Speaker 1: had made all of these big contributions and accomplishments that
29:29
Speaker 1: she was saying actually belonged to her, And so she
29:32
Speaker 1: ended up telling this computer historian and then quietly added
29:35
Speaker 1: a quote gender transition section to her own website. And
29:39
Speaker 1: this small, quiet decision is what really sparked the next
29:43
Speaker 1: chapter of her life as this you know, outspoken advocate
29:48
Speaker 1: for trans rights. And what an interesting conundrum that would
29:53
Speaker 1: be to say, like, well, I want to correct the record.
29:56
Speaker 1: I want people to know that that this was me,
29:58
Speaker 1: that I did this work. But in order to do that,
30:00
Speaker 1: I really have to, you know, open up about my
30:04
Speaker 1: identity in a way that I haven't really been so
30:06
Speaker 1: comfortable with before. And so how interesting it is that
30:10
Speaker 1: that personal choice and that personal you know conundrum for
30:15
Speaker 1: Linn Conway would go on to broaden all of our
30:19
Speaker 1: understanding of our world and all of our understanding of
30:22
Speaker 1: like why we have the technology that we do and
30:24
Speaker 1: who is responsible for it? And so I just always
30:26
Speaker 1: thought it was an interesting way that like this personal
30:29
Speaker 1: dilemma for Conway had these massive global implications for all
30:34
Speaker 1: of us and our understanding of technology and the internet
30:37
Speaker 1: and history. Right. Yeah, It's one of those things where
30:42
Speaker 1: for for some people that would be such a like
30:44
Speaker 1: minor thing, but that's huge to have to make that
30:49
Speaker 1: decision and to also, like way, the implications of your
30:53
Speaker 1: personal life on something that, again for a lot of
30:55
Speaker 1: people might be pretty minor, but this is It changes
31:01
Speaker 1: Lynn Conway's life, and it changes all of ours and
31:03
Speaker 1: all of the the understanding and information we have about
31:07
Speaker 1: things we do use all of the time and who's
31:10
Speaker 1: behind those and who is responsible for those And yeah,
31:14
Speaker 1: it's not an easy thing to do at all. But
31:17
Speaker 1: also yeah, this really led her down this path of
31:22
Speaker 1: advocating for trans rights right absolutely, So, the list of
31:27
Speaker 1: all the different ways that she became this outspoken advocate
31:30
Speaker 1: for trans rights, it's very, very long. She's given support
31:33
Speaker 1: and assistance to many trans women who were going through transition,
31:36
Speaker 1: and she was an advocate for employment protections for trans
31:39
Speaker 1: folks and then also just a general advocate for trans
31:42
Speaker 1: folks in technology. M One of my favorite things about
31:45
Speaker 1: her that she has done is that Conway and Leandra
31:49
Speaker 1: Vicky of the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill sunfestively
31:52
Speaker 1: lobbied the Board of Directors of the Institute of Electrical
31:56
Speaker 1: and Electronics Engineers, which is essentially a code of ethics
31:59
Speaker 1: pertaining to the engineering profession to include trans identity, which
32:03
Speaker 1: impacts you know, the largest engineering professional society today, and
32:07
Speaker 1: so that's going to have like global, far reaching impacts
32:10
Speaker 1: to make that trans inclusive. And so that was work
32:15
Speaker 1: that she was able to do because she had become
32:17
Speaker 1: this like outspoken advocate for trans right and then like, yeah,
32:21
Speaker 1: just you know, I'm so happy that she had this
32:25
Speaker 1: time in her life where she was able to be
32:28
Speaker 1: a vocal advocate for her people and make make change
32:32
Speaker 1: for other people coming up in technology, Like I think
32:35
Speaker 1: that's so beautiful. Yeah. Yeah, Well, and I gotta ask,
32:40
Speaker 1: did did IBM ever, you know, come back with the apology? Well,
32:47
Speaker 1: so that's a great question. So you're probably thinking, Wow,
32:50
Speaker 1: Conaway is basically this like world changing badass, who is
32:53
Speaker 1: the reason we have smartphones? I Ben really messed up
32:56
Speaker 1: by firing her, And they would agree. After over fifty
33:00
Speaker 1: years of silence about how they treated lind Conway, finally
33:04
Speaker 1: in October, IBM invited their staff to an event called
33:08
Speaker 1: tech Trailblazers and transgender pioneer Lynn Conway in conversation with
33:12
Speaker 1: Diane Gearson. And Gearson, at the time was IBM senior
33:15
Speaker 1: vice president of Human Resources and The event started with
33:18
Speaker 1: a formal apology to Conway for her transphobic firing fifty
33:23
Speaker 1: two years earlier, and Conway said that when this was happening,
33:26
Speaker 1: she was like struggling to hold back tears. And not
33:28
Speaker 1: only did they apologize, but they also recognized her immense
33:32
Speaker 1: and deep contributions to IBM's work that again had just
33:36
Speaker 1: gone like unattributed because they fired her. So they fired
33:38
Speaker 1: her to avoid being associated with a trans woman, and
33:41
Speaker 1: so they couldn't very well be like, oh, well, all
33:43
Speaker 1: these different things we are contributions we have because of
33:46
Speaker 1: this trans woman we fired for being trans. So they
33:48
Speaker 1: basically just like overlooked and unattributed all of this work
33:52
Speaker 1: that she had done. Dario Gil, director of IBM Research,
33:55
Speaker 1: presented Conway with a Lifetime Achievement Award, given to individuals
33:59
Speaker 1: who have changed the world through technological innovations, and Gil
34:01
Speaker 1: noted that Lynn's extraordinary technical achievements helped to find the
34:05
Speaker 1: modern computing industry. She paved the way for how we
34:07
Speaker 1: design and make computing ships today and forever changed micro
34:10
Speaker 1: electronics devices and people's lives. And again, you know, it
34:13
Speaker 1: was fifty two years later that this company finally acknowledged
34:17
Speaker 1: that after she was fired in nineteen that her research
34:20
Speaker 1: was still aiding IBM success today. A spokesperson for IBM said,
34:24
Speaker 1: in nineteen sive Lynn created the Architectural Level Advanced Computing
34:28
Speaker 1: System one simulator and invented a method that led to
34:31
Speaker 1: the development of a super scalar computer. This dynamic instruction
34:35
Speaker 1: scheduling invention was later used to computer ships greatly improving
34:39
Speaker 1: their performance UM and so basically all that is to say,
34:42
Speaker 1: finally IBM was like, oh yeah, this like groundbreaking research
34:45
Speaker 1: that she did we still used today and like actually
34:48
Speaker 1: really helped us today. And you know it just for me,
34:52
Speaker 1: it's like, finally, fifty two years later you can apologize
34:56
Speaker 1: and acknowledge, and Conway said of the event, instead of
34:59
Speaker 1: just be being a resolution of what happened in nineteen,
35:02
Speaker 1: it became a heartfelt group celebration of how far we've
35:06
Speaker 1: all come since then. Wait, so did the dude that
35:09
Speaker 1: fired her? Was he still alive? Because I just really
35:12
Speaker 1: need to know that he needs to know agize. I
35:18
Speaker 1: really need to see this. I want him sitting in
35:21
Speaker 1: the board meeting hearing this conversation and then saying, you
35:24
Speaker 1: know what, this is your fault. You messed up and
35:27
Speaker 1: we're having to do this to do a majacopa because
35:30
Speaker 1: of what you did. I really need that. In the
35:32
Speaker 1: back of my head, I want a if he I
35:35
Speaker 1: don't know if he's still alive, but if you're if
35:37
Speaker 1: he is, I want a personalized video message apology. This
35:43
Speaker 1: this is what I need. And you know what, because
35:46
Speaker 1: I feel like again, this is a movie in my
35:48
Speaker 1: head that I've been playing for the last thirty and
35:50
Speaker 1: watch some thirty in one minute. I need to know.
35:53
Speaker 1: I need to see the scene of her standing by
35:55
Speaker 1: the river with her nice home, talking about her sitting
36:00
Speaker 1: with hopefully her children and our grandchildren, and just talking
36:04
Speaker 1: about where she is today. So can you please finish
36:07
Speaker 1: out this conclusion that I desperately need. Oh my god,
36:09
Speaker 1: I'm happy to you. And this is something else that
36:11
Speaker 1: I love about her story is that she's still very
36:14
Speaker 1: much alive Janie Ray. Second, she celebrated her eighty five birthday,
36:18
Speaker 1: so just a few weeks ago, Happy birthday. And something
36:23
Speaker 1: else that I love about her story is that like
36:25
Speaker 1: she You know, when I was researching for this episode,
36:27
Speaker 1: I found all these great videos of her. She is
36:30
Speaker 1: living her best life. She lives on twenty four beautiful
36:33
Speaker 1: acres of meadow marsh and woodlands and rural Michigan with
36:37
Speaker 1: her husband, where they spend all of their time like
36:39
Speaker 1: exploring the outdoors, you know. And I saw these videos
36:42
Speaker 1: of them writing like four wheelers together on their property
36:46
Speaker 1: and like canoeing together and like climbing together, and I
36:49
Speaker 1: just felt like, I'm so happy that she is like
36:52
Speaker 1: living her best life and she's still an amazing activist.
36:55
Speaker 1: You can follow her on Twitter at Lynn Conway. And yeah,
36:58
Speaker 1: I just I'm so happy that her already ends with
37:01
Speaker 1: her with a loving husband, living her best life in
37:05
Speaker 1: Michigan exploring the outdoors. Yes, and I love that this
37:09
Speaker 1: theme of like adventure and canoeing has been so foundational
37:14
Speaker 1: and helped her through these like tough times in her life.
37:17
Speaker 1: And now she has all this land and she gets
37:20
Speaker 1: to still explore those things that bring her joy. That
37:23
Speaker 1: makes me very happy. Yeah, it's really sweet. Like if
37:26
Speaker 1: anybody like, definitely google that, you can google pictures of
37:30
Speaker 1: her and google videos of her on her property and
37:32
Speaker 1: like it's it's the cutest. It like melted my heart
37:34
Speaker 1: and made me very very happy. We're trying you Samantha,
37:41
Speaker 1: I feel like you need to be attached to this
37:43
Speaker 1: project if everything your heart is I'm just exploding, like
37:48
Speaker 1: this is what I needed today. The feel good but
37:51
Speaker 1: like heartwrenching tell of coming through all the trials and tribulation,
37:55
Speaker 1: then then coming to the end with her massive property, happily,
37:59
Speaker 1: withholding hands of her husband, loving life. It makes me
38:03
Speaker 1: so happy, and I just gotta say, like, you know,
38:06
Speaker 1: trans people like lind Conway deserve to live full, beautiful
38:10
Speaker 1: lives that account for their contributions and their brilliance. And
38:14
Speaker 1: they deserve that regardless of where they are on their journeys,
38:16
Speaker 1: you know, transition. Like obviously this story was very foth
38:19
Speaker 1: focused around Conway's transition, but transition means different things to
38:23
Speaker 1: different people, Like it can mean personal and medical and
38:26
Speaker 1: legal steps, or like telling someone's family and friends and
38:28
Speaker 1: co workers, or using a different name or new pronouns,
38:31
Speaker 1: or dressing differently, or it can be different things for
38:33
Speaker 1: different people, And as we discussed earlier, you know, it
38:36
Speaker 1: can be really financially prohibitive for many and so regardless
38:41
Speaker 1: of whether or not Transpolkes are able to transition the
38:43
Speaker 1: way that Conway did, they deserve to live full lives
38:47
Speaker 1: like they deserve whatever their particular version of a twenty
38:50
Speaker 1: four acre farm on the woodlands and rural Michigan is
38:54
Speaker 1: like they deserve that, whether they can transition the way
38:57
Speaker 1: that she did or not. And so, you know, I
38:59
Speaker 1: and it's want to say that because I think that
39:03
Speaker 1: sometimes it can feel like the reason why her story
39:05
Speaker 1: gets a happy ending is because she was able to transition.
39:07
Speaker 1: And I think that everybody deserves a full life and
39:10
Speaker 1: a happy ending, regardless of where they are on that journey.
39:13
Speaker 1: I mean, that's the end goal is let people live
39:15
Speaker 1: their best life, to truly have the freedom and the
39:18
Speaker 1: peace and and and I'm happy of pursuit of happiness
39:21
Speaker 1: as they should, because this is about them, it's not
39:23
Speaker 1: about us. When people are disenfranchised and pushed to the
39:27
Speaker 1: point of being non existent, that's when we lose great minds,
39:32
Speaker 1: and that's what we lose greatness in general. And I
39:36
Speaker 1: breaks my heart obviously, um as as you have brought
39:39
Speaker 1: the story to us that this is a good ending,
39:41
Speaker 1: and I love that we can celebrate her while she's
39:44
Speaker 1: still here and give her the flowers that she deserves
39:46
Speaker 1: while she's still here. But at the same time. You know,
39:50
Speaker 1: we can't look past the fact that she had to
39:52
Speaker 1: go through this in the first place, and though she
39:55
Speaker 1: was able to get through it, thank God that she
39:57
Speaker 1: was she was able to There's so many others who
40:00
Speaker 1: are pushed beyond those boundaries, and that we don't get
40:03
Speaker 1: to celebrate who they are um because of hate and
40:06
Speaker 1: ignorance and the continue need to erase and completely censure
40:12
Speaker 1: these amazing people just for who they are, just for
40:15
Speaker 1: living and we cannot be quiet and belittle um. The
40:20
Speaker 1: fact that this is an ongoing issue today and the
40:23
Speaker 1: many who have been killed, the many who have died
40:26
Speaker 1: by suicide, Like all of these things are important that
40:28
Speaker 1: we keep talking about what great success can look like.
40:33
Speaker 1: But the fact that that she shouldn't have to have
40:34
Speaker 1: gone through have the that she had to go through
40:37
Speaker 1: and had the many of these people have to go through. Absolutely.
40:40
Speaker 1: I mean, that's one of the reasons why her story
40:43
Speaker 1: sticks with me, because it just reminds me to sell
40:47
Speaker 1: it to like build the monuments to these marginalized people
40:50
Speaker 1: who are so often erased, and do so as a
40:54
Speaker 1: way to honor the people who didn't make it, the
40:57
Speaker 1: people whose voices and whose stories we won't here the
41:00
Speaker 1: people who are making contributions that we don't know about
41:04
Speaker 1: right now, right that we won't find out about. And so,
41:06
Speaker 1: you know, I think it's so important that we not
41:09
Speaker 1: just like you said that, we don't let sexist, racist,
41:11
Speaker 1: transphobic systems erase these accomplishments because they are important to
41:16
Speaker 1: all of us. There there are history as it's just
41:19
Speaker 1: as people as humans. And so it's you really said it,
41:22
Speaker 1: like it's so important to me and it. Conway has
41:25
Speaker 1: this great piece kind of looking back on her life
41:27
Speaker 1: in the Huffingland Post and it ends with this great line,
41:29
Speaker 1: bottom line, if you want to change the future, start
41:32
Speaker 1: living as if you're already there. And I love that
41:36
Speaker 1: for her. I love the idea of all of us
41:39
Speaker 1: taking responsibility to sort of create the world we want
41:41
Speaker 1: to see and build these these monuments to these marginalized
41:45
Speaker 1: voices that we desperately need. So, Lynn Conway, you are
41:48
Speaker 1: a hero. You are incredible. Your story is amazing. You
41:51
Speaker 1: are a badass, And I'm so glad that we can
41:53
Speaker 1: talk about her while she's still alive, like we can
41:55
Speaker 1: go tweet that or if you wanted, Like that's incredible.
41:57
Speaker 1: That is living history that is contete at her from
42:01
Speaker 1: the technologist she helped create. That got me really excited. Um,
42:10
Speaker 1: and thank you Bridget for bringing this story for always,
42:13
Speaker 1: you know, finding these these things that we might have
42:16
Speaker 1: missed that are so important, are so so valuable for
42:20
Speaker 1: us to know and talk about. Um. So we really
42:23
Speaker 1: appreciate it. And thank you thinking, thank you, oh, thank
42:27
Speaker 1: you for giving me a space to do it. This
42:28
Speaker 1: is my favorite thing to do in the world. It
42:30
Speaker 1: makes me so happy. So thanks thanks to the both
42:32
Speaker 1: of you. Yes, um, well I can't wait to do
42:35
Speaker 1: it again. We'll see what we can get moving with
42:37
Speaker 1: this motion picture deal. Um. But in the meantime, Bridget,
42:44
Speaker 1: where can the good listeners find you? You can find
42:46
Speaker 1: me at my own podcast called There Are No Girls
42:49
Speaker 1: on the Internet or We Love digging into the unexplored,
42:52
Speaker 1: overlooked history of marginalized folks and how they shape technology
42:55
Speaker 1: and the Internet. You can find me on Instagram at
42:58
Speaker 1: Bridget Marine d C and on better probably tweeting at
43:01
Speaker 1: Lynn Conway how much I love her at Bridget Murray. Yes,
43:05
Speaker 1: I love it. I love it. Definitely go check all
43:07
Speaker 1: that stuff out, listeners if you haven't already, Thank you again.
43:10
Speaker 1: Bridget and to wait to hang out again in this
43:14
Speaker 1: virtual weird pandemic setting. And thank you listeners for listening.
43:21
Speaker 1: If you want to contact us, you can our email
43:24
Speaker 1: stuff Idia, mom Stuff at I Hurt mea dot com.
43:25
Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast
43:27
Speaker 1: or Instagram and stuff One Never Told You. Thanks as
43:29
Speaker 1: always to our super producer Christina, Thank you and thanks
43:32
Speaker 1: to you for listening. Stuff One Never Told The Strotection
43:34
Speaker 1: by Hour Radio for more podcast from My Hear Radio,
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Speaker 1: I Heard You app Apple Podcast wherever you listen to
43:38
Speaker 1: your favorite shows.