Latest / Private Lending Insights / Navigating What’s Next in Private Lending: Trends, Strategy, and Vision with Anthony Geraci

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Navigating What’s Next in Private Lending: Trends, Strategy, and Vision with Anthony Geraci · Private Lending Insights

• [00:00:00] Rocky: Welcome to Private Lending Insights. I'm your host, Rocky Butani. In this episode, I interviewed Anthony Geraci from Geraci, LLP, also known as Geraci Law Firm. Anthony has built an amazing law firm to serve private lending companies over the past 15 plus years. And they've hosted a lot of conferences, made a lot of connections for people in the industry, including for myself. [00:00:23] And in June, 2025, Anthony has split from the company that he built. That law firm is now called Fort for Law, and Anthony's starting his own law firm from the Ground up, which is still called Geraci Law Firm, or Geraci, LLP. And he has a, a new vision for his firm that is gonna still remain focused on private lending. [00:00:49] Anthony Geraci is a true visionary in our space. He formed the American Association of Private Lenders. It was, uh, his idea to start the conference for a PL. He then started his own conference series for his own law firm, uh, back in 2017. And he has a lot of knowledge about what's happening in the private lending industry. [00:01:10] We talked about the story behind his, uh, new firm and the split from his old firm. We talked about his thoughts on the market, on trends that he's seen. Uh, we talked about, uh, his history with the a PL and, uh, a little bit of his history of him starting the business and what he's accomplished over the years. [00:01:30] We also talked about a couple of new business ventures that he started. Anthony's a true entrepreneur. He, he's very good at starting companies, building them. He is very good at delegating, so he loves to, uh, hire people and start these companies wherever season opportunity. So we touch on those two. Many of you who've attended GIS conferences over the last several years have gotten to know, uh, the law firm's partners quite well, and Anthony's hasn't been one that's been, uh, out there as much as some of the other. [00:02:00] Uh, attorneys from his previous firm. Uh, so you may not know much about him, uh, but, uh, he's a good guy. I've known him since, uh, the first a PL conference I attended in 2013. At the time, I didn't realize that, uh, that he had started it. Uh, I, I thought maybe he was just a speaker on stage and he was just pitching his, his legal services. [00:02:21] But, uh, he's, uh, he's been a true visionary and, uh, helped a lot of people grow in our industry. I hope you find this episode to be insightful. Let's get started. Here's my interview with Anthony Geraci. All right, Anthony, thanks for joining me for Private Lending Insights. It's, uh, great to talk to you. How's everything, uh, with you and, and, uh, all your business ventures? [00:02:44] Anthony Geraci: Everything's great. No, thanks for having me, Rocky. Uh, excited to be here and, uh, talk with you. I mean, I know we've talked for years in the industry, but, uh, excited to be on the podcast, so it'll be fun. [00:02:53] Rocky: Absolutely. So let's start off by talking about what's happening with your law firm and, and, uh, you know, you splitting from the law firm that you started. [00:03:03] If you could just tell us a story behind that. [00:03:06] Anthony Geraci: Yeah. You know, it, it's, uh, something, you know, my, my love of private lending has been, you know, it's my, been my entire career for the last two decades. And as we moved, you know, more and more toward, if you will, 20 20, 20 25, I mean, it, it's amazing how much, how things have changed right? [00:03:22] In the industry from if you'll balance sheet lenders to, if you will, wall Street coming in, securitizing everything and, and so many exciting changes, uh, that happen. Uh. Yeah. As part of that, you know, my firm became bigger and, um, you know, we, we had a lot more partners and, you know, sometimes we, we didn't see eye to eye. [00:03:38] Right. And, and I think that what that came down to is I, I saw going one way and, uh, my partner saw another way. And, you know, what I thought was best way for, for us is I, I didn't see a path forward, uh, with them, especially, you know, as, you know, going into my other business ventures as well. To me, I see my other business ventures actually as complimenting the space, not necessarily, uh, um, uh, distracting from it. [00:04:02] And, uh, I think as we talk more, you'll kind of see my vision for it overall. And so my vision just became something that, that just wasn't part of where they were headed. So, you know, off to, off to, uh, creating slash recreating gsi, LLP 2.0. [00:04:17] Rocky: So, so the firm that, that you built over the years, uh, it's, it's now rebranded to Fort and then you're, you're continuing your law firm under your. [00:04:27] Last name of course, which is Geraci, LLP or Geraci Law Firm. Right. [00:04:31] Anthony Geraci: You got it. Yep. [00:04:32] Rocky: Okay. Okay. [00:04:33] Anthony Geraci: You, you can't have Himi without Anthony Geraci. [00:04:36] Rocky: Exactly. Yeah. Makes sense. And uh, so are you offering the same legal services, uh, as, as the previous company [00:04:44] Anthony Geraci: I am, yeah. So, you know, keep, keep in mind I, I, uh, uh, started the, the, all the divisions, right? [00:04:51] So banking and finance, corporate and securities. I mean, I've done hundreds of funds. I've done, you know, I dunno, hundreds of loan documents, uh, catalyst four 50 state lending, licensing, all that above as like, we, we'll do the same services as well, but I would say our, our niche, if you will, is, is really that high level strategic advice. [00:05:09] You know, that's, that's something I, it was hallmark of my, my, uh, experience for the past two decades. Uh, I've been very fortunate to, to work with some of, uh, what we're now the biggest players in the space, guiding them from, you know, their, their humble beginnings up to billion dollar companies now. And it's just exciting to see where they're headed. [00:05:25] And yeah, I wanna continue that. Uh, I dunno how you feel, Rocky, but I truly, truly believe we're just at beginning of, uh, of what I think the next 10 years will be for private lending, the huge expansion that's gonna come and, and I think the, the, the contributions that can continue to make it into space. [00:05:40] Rocky: Yeah, agreed. It, it's, you know, it, it, I got to a point where I, I thought, how is this space gonna grow even more? I, you know, how is it possible? How are there that many real estate investors and that many deals out there to be funded and, and it, the volume just keeps growing and growing and doubling and tripling. [00:05:57] So, so yeah, I, I think there's still a lot of room to grow and, uh, as long, as, long as there's real estate transactions, especially in the residential sector, I, I think there's still gonna be continued growth in, in private lending. [00:06:10] Anthony Geraci: A hundred percent. And I think what you you're seeing is you're seeing people niche out in different areas, right? [00:06:13] So a lot of, uh, my clients now even we're talking about construction loans and how they're gonna add value to that. And, and really trying to figure out different products. I mean, this is kind of nascent to me of, if you will, 2004, 2006, right before the subprime crash, if you will. You had a lot of different products, and I'll say exotic products, if you will, in that timeframe. [00:06:32] I'm not saying, of course, I'm not alluding to a 2007 crash, if you will. I'm just saying you have a lot of creativity in the space right now. Um, and you're seeing if you will, kind of the, the, the bloody nose that the commercial space, at least the Class A buildings are getting right now, just devaluing significantly as people, you know, you've got this competition of return to work versus hybrid work environments. [00:06:52] And I think, you know what, we're all stand on that one and as a result, just lack of office space needed and you're, you're seeing a lot of class A buildings just getting demolished as far as values, uh, uh, in LA and I would say other super regional areas. Um, we're gonna see that continue for the next few years as well. [00:07:07] Yeah, [00:07:08] Rocky: and I've seen a, a bunch of lenders that, private lenders that were a hundred percent focused on commercial real estate and they're, they're pulling back, scaling, back, pausing, or making the switch to residential because that, that space has just got decimated. Not only office, but Multifamilies, um, you know, which, which was the darling asset class for so many years has, has just, uh, has just not crashed, but it's, uh, it's taken a, a real big hit. [00:07:36] Anthony Geraci: Absolutely. I mean, you, you kind of see this as like, this is kind of the understory that I don't think you hear a lot of, which is technology has allowed all of us to relocate to where do you want to be today? And I say today doesn't mean you have to be here forever, right? You could, you could rent a, a house in Thailand for a month and you could be in, um, Italy for the next month with the same access to internet technology and sophistication as you would here in the United States at any time in history. [00:08:02] Have you ever had that ability to do so? To work for literally from anywhere? And, and you know, as you see these return to office stuff, which you know, may or may not be, uh, accelerating with, uh, popularity, but I would think for private lenders is we could literally work anywhere. As you see me and you we're in two different places right now doing this podcast. [00:08:18] And, and I don't think that's a fed, I think that's gonna continue. And as that continues for other people, you know, what does that mean for multifamily? What does that mean for commercial? If you don't need to stay in one place anymore, do you really have, if you will, the demands on real estate that you once did? [00:08:32] Rocky: Sure. Absolutely. And, um, and so your, your new firm that you've started is this, are, are you gonna stay a hundred percent focused on private mortgage lending or do you have plans to branch out into other. Lending sectors? [00:08:45] Anthony Geraci: No, I, I think there's so much to do in this space. I plan on staying in the private lending space now while I stay just in the real estate, private lending space. [00:08:51] I don't know, uh, as you know, I, I found another company called Stratus Financial and, uh, we do student loans to pilots. I would say anything in the financing state for, I would say alternative lending space, uh, is fair game for our firm. Right. And we've become experts now in student loans, if you will, through me. [00:09:06] And, you know, just, just other interesting asset classes. Um, there, there is so much activity as, as you're probably seeing in equipment financing and, uh, um, all, all kinds of other space. So I, I think we could branch out to that, but for sure, we will stay. The forefront of us is gonna be private lending, non-bank lending, um, with, of course like the core likely to still be real estate. [00:09:25] But I wouldn't see, I, I, I'd see us being o other avenues such as student lending or equipment financing as well. [00:09:31] Rocky: Within the legal services of private lending, there's, uh, there's, there's a few large firms that service most of, of the lenders. Uh, how do you see the. The competitive landscape in, in private lending in terms of, uh, in terms of legal services. [00:09:48] Anthony Geraci: Question always comes down to what I have to ask myself is like, what additional value do I, uh, add to people, right? What can, what can my firm, or whatever I can do in the space, what, what value can I add to them? And at my core, I've always been a connector in the space. Um, you know, I, I, I think, you know, I, I founded a a PL. [00:10:04] Um, I founded the, the conference lines, uh, that, uh, was Geraci conference lines. And of course I'll found another line, but, but, but I've always loved connecting people in the space. Like if I can get you in the room with people you want to know and you get business as a result, that's always. One gratified me, right? [00:10:22] Is I, I, I'm happy to make that relationship happen. And then second is I know, you know, you'll think kindly of me and my businesses will grow as a result. So, you know, I always, uh, say that I'm selfishly selfless in that sense. You know? It's like that's my goal is to connect everybody in the room. So, so funny enough, while I, my, my vision is the same and my, funny enough, my offering is the same. [00:10:40] It's just, you know, I, I, I think my execution will be exactly the same. But, but, you know, my goal is always to be where, where does private lending need to go? And what problems do I need to solve for people? And then how do I get those people in that room? [00:10:53] Rocky: And earlier you, you, uh, I can't remember the term you used, you said strategic. [00:10:57] Was it advisory? Was, was something you said that you specialize in? Um, so that, that's what, what I, what I took from that is that high level, uh, if, if a private lender is trying to figure out their strategy, um, you can consult them on that. You can advise them, you that. [00:11:14] Anthony Geraci: Absolutely. Yeah. So I, you don't just get a lawyer who's been doing private lending for 20 years, although I've been doing that as well. [00:11:20] Um, under Stratus, I've created three funds. I've ran three funds, uh, with warehouse lines, equity, capital, um, and created, if you will, the, the, the, the market in that space. So what can I take from that world and continue to add to private lending? You know, I, I, I believe, as I said, kinda what we were touch, touching on, we're just in our infancy. [00:11:39] I, I truly believe my skillset will be strategically advising, you know, if you will, smaller players if you will now, um, that are really starting their careers and grow in the next 10 or 15 years to be, you know, the giants of our world today. [00:11:52] Rocky: And is this something that you've done over the years, um, with, with lenders that, that started small and, and grew to be, uh, a much larger national lending shop? [00:12:03] Anthony Geraci: Yeah. You know, it's funny, uh, uh, I think, you know, also I launch a podcast, Rocky, you're about to, uh, that's just coming out literally today. Funny enough, and you'll see it out there. Um, so I, I was, I was grateful to have, uh, Ben Fertig on my show. And, you know, we were just talking about, you know, the times we were working together when he was in Jordan Capital. [00:12:18] You know, that's, that's a blast for the past name that probably most people don't know. That was his, his foray into, into private lending. And then it became Constructive Capital. And, and I think everybody recognizes one of the giants in the space. Um, you know, I've worked, you know, I said blessed to work with a lot of players in, in this space and, and, you know, seeing, you know, what they do from the beginning and then grow from there. [00:12:38] People like Steve Pollock and Anchor Loans, um, you know, it, it's been gr gratifying to see how they've taken it to now and then of course with Ray Running Anchor and, uh, seeing what she will do with it, uh, going forward. Um, you know, and it's, it's amazing to see, you know, where, where they all started, where they're going. [00:12:55] And I definitely don't wanna take any credit from them, right? These people have taken the space throughout the warehouse wines talk with, you know, wall Street and really convinced them to do so. Um, funny enough, one of the players that you don't hear about too much, that I give a lot of credit for is, uh, I don't even if you remember AUM and, uh, um, Brian O'Shaughnessy Yes. [00:13:13] From Mathis and Rama Fund. [00:13:14] Rocky: Absolutely. You know, [00:13:15] Anthony Geraci: those guys in 2010 Alene did a lot for, you know, making Wall Street aware of this p this playground, if you will, of private lending. And in 2010, that's where the seeds were coming in. And then of course you got Beth and uh, uh, Ben coming up in 20 13, 20 14, just, you know, taking the world by storm. [00:13:29] So it was awesome to see. [00:13:30] Rocky: Yeah, I remember the first and second a PL conferences I attended, 20 13, 20 14, uh, Athis Rama, or it was, I guess it was more Rama was prominent 'cause they were trying to raise capital, as I remember seeing them at your conferences and. Um, and, and that was fascinating and it's, and, and they've had their own journey in the space, but, uh, there's, there's been a lot of these giants, if you will, that have, uh, that have been in your orbit. [00:13:58] Anthony Geraci: Yeah. And I, I, and again, I, I think we're just starting. I really, really do. I think, you know, there's gonna be a new norm. You know, you've got people, you know, it, when, when you and I were coming in the space, right? It was very regional, you know, uh, private lending, you know, they maybe, maybe they'd be in California, maybe expanded Arizona or Nevada and that's it. [00:14:14] They'd be stay very regional or some people in the Northeast and stay very regional. I mean, today everybody and, and constant demands that I get is 50 state lending. You know, what, what licensing do I need to be in all 50 states. And it's not just a, Hey, lemme get license in one. Okay, let's get license in all 50 right now. [00:14:30] That used to be a rarity, and it's soon to be the norm, you know, as a lot of these players, you know, either get correspondence or really try to securitize their book. Um, you know, and a lot of good work that, of course Beth and uh, John Ham have done from Tour Act, just, uh, just getting awareness through Wall Street of the private lending space, make it easier for everyone to securitize. [00:14:48] Rocky: And there's tons of capital out there now. Um, uh, but it, it seems like a lot of lenders are struggling to get deals, um, even though lenders expand into other states, there's already competition in those states. How do you see that playing out? Is there, is there gonna be enough deals to be had for, for all the, the new lenders and all the existing lenders that are expanding into lots of other states? [00:15:09] Yeah, [00:15:10] Anthony Geraci: I think so. And I, and I think, you know, we don't talk about it much, but I think you're gonna see if you will, the, this divide. Um, and, and something that, you know, I wanna address in my conference line, you're gonna see, um, I'll, I'll call it divide all, just, just call it artificial divide though, between securitizer and balance sheet lenders, right? [00:15:27] And they have two different goals. You know, your securitizer, they're trying to aggregate a lot of rtls and a lot of different, uh, loans and get those up to Wall Street and sell them, make them all look the same and sell them to Wall Street. And you got your balance sheet. Lenders who are looking at deals completely differently. [00:15:40] They're not looking for the X exit in mind. They're looking, Hey, this looks interesting. I can make this deal. Sure. It's not a one size fits all. It's gonna be a lot more work and probably cost a lot more than say, an RTL own will. But it's just as much a good deal as an RTL would be. And your balance sheet lenders are gonna do those deals every day. [00:15:56] So I, you know, I think. Every deal is gonna find a home, and every home is gonna be different. And, and I think there's gonna be a lot more deal flow. Um, the next thing I think we need to do also is just, just get more awareness, if you will, to private lending space. You know, get, train up the next, you know, side of brokers and really get them involved in, Hey, you don't have to just sit on this, banks don't have to do this deal as banks are getting, uh, uh, uh, more and more restrictive on their capital. [00:16:21] You know, I, I see non-bank lending or alternative credit, just taking the world by storm. You know, you hear a lot about private credit and, and how, you know, fuel wall street's trying to get money into the space because it, it's a safe alternative, uh, in a volatile world. [00:16:34] Rocky: Absolutely. I, I've heard of a lot of, uh, builders that, that I didn't realize there were that many builders out there that used banks instead of, instead of private lending. [00:16:42] And, and it seems like a lot of them have been making that shift over. Getting away from banks, just 'cause the banks can't really serve them anymore and they've come to private lending, so they're paying a little more in, in the, in the rates and fees. But, but they're probably getting faster service and, and it's probably made life easier for them. [00:17:00] Anthony Geraci: You got it. And the spreads have never been closer. Right. I mean, we're talking about, you know, especially bank lending, you know, maybe they're at six or 7% and you've got, you know, private lending starting at nine. I mean, you've got 200 bips as a spread between bank and non-bank lending. That's a very thin spread. [00:17:14] Right. And, and 2%, especially if you have the X in mind, like if you're flipping it or rehabbing it or whatever you plan on doing, it may make more sense to close with a private lender than it is going through the bank and the rigmarole and the hoops you have to jump through in the banks. [00:17:27] Rocky: Yeah. And what are your thoughts on, on DSCR loans? [00:17:31] The, you know, the, the, it seems like they haven't slowed down. Well, they've slowed down definitely since 21, 22, but, but the rates are high. They're still, they're still a ton of DSCR loans closing. Where do you see that heading in the future? I [00:17:45] Anthony Geraci: still do see that as more competitive. Right. I, I don't you see that, I mean, it slowed down a little bit to do the market concerns, but I still think that, I mean, you have, if you will, the non QM players playing in the DSER space now. [00:17:56] Right. You know, so they're adding that as a feature of non qms, um, you know, and, and, uh, you know, some old players, if you will, coming up with new ideas, uh, within that. So I, I see that continuing. I don't see a, a slow down, like a, like a stop, if you will. Like the slow down's gonna have been as a result in the market, but you still have creative people in the space trying to find alternative places to put the DSER loans. [00:18:17] And if they can sell it for 50 or a hundred bits cheaper than they'll gain more marketers as a result. [00:18:22] Rocky: And I don't know a whole lot about the secondary market for, for DSCR loans. That's, that's something that I've, I've never known who those players are that are buying all of those loans, but it seems like they've been. [00:18:33] Uh, around doing securitizations for DSCR more than, than the bridge loans are, are, are they just a different type of investor than, than, let's say the ones that are securitizing the bridge loans? The RTL? [00:18:46] Anthony Geraci: Yeah. Your, your securitizations are ly. Wall Street. Right. So people who want to buy 'em up, I mean, you've got, you know, hedge funds and everything to use 'em as a fixed income as against a a a a hedge for, for their riskier deals, if you will. [00:18:57] The people who are buying Dscr and if you, if you can get them actually is more like insurance companies. You know, you've got insurance companies really coming in, they're looking at it differently. They're not trying to find this huge yield. They're trying to just get enough yield to pay their premiums. [00:19:09] So they're willing to accept a, a, a cheaper, uh, uh, uh, coupon if you can show them a safer return, right? So if you can get the, the, the, the dscr R higher, or if you can get the LTVs lower, I think you'd find real buyers and insurance companies. And they're not trying to get the maximum yield possible. [00:19:24] They're trying to get a, a safe return to pay their premiums, uh, that they charge. And so what you look for different business models, and that's a different exit for lenders as a result. [00:19:33] Rocky: And as far as you know, is the, the DSCR loan that are, that are purchased by insurance companies, is that really populated through the insurance industry or, or do you think there's a lot of insurance companies out there that just haven't really touched this investment opportunity? [00:19:51] Anthony Geraci: Both. Right. So, so your bigger insurance companies, of course, know it, love it, are buying it right now. I think you're gonna see kind of what we're also also seeing in, in the warehousing space. You're gonna see, um, regional insurance companies or smaller insurance companies look to, you know, pad their book kinda like the bigger insurance companies are with DSER paper, much like you're seeing right now as warehouse lines, you're seeing regional banks come and, Hey, I'll throw you 10 or $50 million in a warehouse line because I've just seen how easy it is for these bigger banks. [00:20:16] You know, they've taken, they've taken the risk and built that ingen already. You know, it's like, how do I copy and paste that? And you see that, that's when things start getting, if you are a little, a little hot and heavier when you can almost do a copy and paste model of, of the bigger players on a regional level. [00:20:31] Rocky: Sure makes sense. Um, and, uh, what, what are your thoughts on, on where we're headed with, with commercial real estate in the next 18 months or so? Is that, do you think that's gonna make a comeback in any big way? [00:20:43] Anthony Geraci: I don't think so. I think we're still chasing the bottom of that. I, I think you're seeing a lot of media right now, um, and, you know, you know, again, don't wanna call myself a conspiracy theorist, but, but at the same time you have to take a look at who's mandating a return to work environment, right. [00:20:57] And who's mandating the return to office and, you know, railing against this remote environment. Um, you know, I'm not a proponent either of a fully remote environment, although, you know, I love fully remote, but there's also a hybrid that can happen, right? You can have people remote, you can have people in office, and you have both. [00:21:12] I think it's how you structure the, the, the environment more than anything that, that matters more than where they're located. But the people who care about location. Are the people in the office buildings, right? They can't fill the office building as if we don't have people going to the office. And so you still see huge vacancies, I think within even people leasing. [00:21:30] And you have a lot of tenants asking themselves, do I really need this amount of space? So they're either one, you know, gonna go to the class A, uh, office buildings and say, I need less space. Or even more drastically, Hey, why don't I go get that office condo or smaller space. Either buy it or just rent lesser, get a lower, um, um, supple net lease that they can, they, they don't need it. [00:21:51] And or just co co-locate like they do with WeWork and something like that. There's a lack of drive for space. And again, until that changes, I don't think the office environment changes. I mean, you, you always have a place for the smaller office condos, but class A buildings, that's what you're seeing right now. [00:22:07] A lot of these people try to figure out how to convert these into condos. And of course that brings its own set of problems because the plumbing is just not, you know, there in class A buildings to, to be residential. So it's, I I, to answer your question, I I don't think we're, we're seeing the bottom anytime soon. [00:22:21] I, I think you'll still see a race to the bottom for the next couple years. [00:22:25] Rocky: And do you, uh, see, uh, a lot of private lenders that, that are, have been focused on commercial real estate, uh, small balance sheet bridge loans. Uh, do they, I'm sorry, small balance bridge loans, do they, um, do they seem to be sticking with commercial real estate or do you see a shift, uh, from those firms to getting into residential properties? [00:22:47] Anthony Geraci: Yeah, I, I definitely seen a shift. I mean, there'll, there'll be always a home for those smaller commercial buildings, right. Or some light industrial buildings. But, but I, you know, at least what, you know, our bigger lenders in the commercial space, you, you're really seeing the banks, um, making loans with the Class A buildings right now. [00:23:02] And, and just see, see if you will not a lot of alternatives. There can always be one, but the question that every lender has to answer is, what are you gonna value it at? Are you gonna value it at, at 80 cents of the dollar 60, 40, 20? What's the right value? And, and until you, I think you get certain on value, I dunno any lender who's gonna really be certain about what they're lending on. [00:23:21] Um, so I, I don't see that as, uh, something that private lenders are gonna just rely on solely. Um, with that said, you know, I haven't seen too many private lenders in the commercial space, like land on huge class A buildings anyway. You know, those are gonna be your hedge funds and stuff like that, maybe that have a strategic play for them. [00:23:36] So. [00:23:37] Rocky: Alright. Do you have any, uh, insights on, uh, uh, at least some of your clients over the past few years? Or let's just say over the past year, uh, uh, in terms of defaults have, uh, have you seen an uptick, uh, in defaults or does that seem to have tapered off? [00:23:53] Anthony Geraci: Yeah, no, no real uptick. Um, you know, it, it's been rumored that we're gonna see these huge, uh, uh, defaults. [00:23:58] And it's funny 'cause even in the DS DSER world, you're gonna see lots of resets and you thought there'd be huge workouts and there's some, don't get me wrong, there's definitely workouts being had, but there's not this huge default that was supposed to happen, right. Because there's huge reset, or we'd see numerous foreclosures right now, and it's pretty much, you know, there's, there's a slight uptick, don't get me wrong, but there's not this, this wave of foreclosures that I think everybody was expecting by now. [00:24:21] Rocky: Alright. Uh, and, uh, with, with your new firm, are you planning to, uh, offer any foreclosure, uh, related services? [00:24:30] Anthony Geraci: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So we'll foreclose it in all 50 states as well. Um, obviously like, you know, relationships as well. I'm not gonna, you know, overnight become a New York trustee per perche, but, you know, we'll, we'll have, uh, affiliates that will be able to happy that. [00:24:41] But my goal always has been, you know. Uh, move everything around service. So how do I service my clients better? So definitely we'll offer that and then find partners that we think can execute on that, on a level that we, we'd be acceptable to. [00:24:53] Rocky: Okay. And and speaking of that, while your firm is, is just starting out and you've got this list of services that you can offer to, to private lenders, um, I mean, how do you, how do you implement that? [00:25:05] Um, you know, if, let's say you get a, a client that, that has a need for, let's say documents and. Uh, let's say fund formation, you can handle that to a certain extent. Do you just, uh, do you just continue to hire, or, or is that something that you partner with other firms on? [00:25:20] Anthony Geraci: I continue to hire, you know, that's just, I, I'll direct inside and, you know, so I'm talking right now with a couple of people that I think will become either senior associates, uh, or associates in the future. [00:25:30] Um, you know, when the work is there, you know, we're, we're just in active talks right now. Um, as you know, this is only a couple weeks old since, uh, launching. So, uh, still very fresh in that. But no, I, I don't plan on being solo for any succession, imagination. We're gonna have, we're gonna have, uh, associates, and my goal is also to have people truly, truly understanding the space. [00:25:45] So, very experienced associates, um, you know, people, people who have cut their teeth, you know, 10, 20 years in the space is, is, uh, definitely at least my first hires. And, and you know, my goal with my firm is, is really. Let's, let's have the depth and breadth of knowledge, you know, that I've always had in the private lending space and something, you know, you can rely on, you know, people, people whose advice, you know, they've been around, it's time tested. [00:26:07] Um, we've seen a lot of things and how do we truly advise you on the next steps? And, and at least for me, I think this can be a key, especially as people are, are starting out and now, you know, growing to that next phase, they're really gonna need that kind of advice to move forward and, you know, again, need something to rely on so that they can know that they're building a solid foundation in the beginning. [00:26:26] Rocky: And so the, the firm that you built over the last 15, 20 years, uh, which is now for, for law, you know, it's such a, um, you know, you, you built an amazing company. It's got, I mean, pe the, the pe the people there, um, you know, the, just the influence that, that the company has on in private lending. You know, the, the amount of information that's shared freely. [00:26:49] Um, it, it's, uh, you know, and, and just the culture of, of the company, the conferences, everyone's. Grown to love the company and it's, I'm, I'm sure a lot of people are, are sad to see a split or, or, or a breakup, if you will. But, um, uh, but, but how do you, how do you compete with, with, with such an amazing company that you built? [00:27:10] Is it, is it where you just take on, uh, you know, you just take on smaller clients and then slowly build up another firm to that will eventually, you know, um, reach that level? [00:27:23] Anthony Geraci: Uh, you know, I'd like to think I was behind a lot of the cultural, uh, uh, you know, exchanges, if you will. So free advice, all that stuff. [00:27:29] Um, you know, I, I trained a lot of those, uh, people for where they're at today. So, um, you know, I wish 'em nothing but the best, but how, how I compete with it is, is really kind of, you know, staying true to those same, if you will, uh, values is how do I connect people who they need to know? I'd like to think that my last four years in building other companies, that experience will truly add value, especially as I launch a new conference line, bringing players in the space that I don't think anybody has ever seen before. [00:27:55] You know, people who are, have helped behind the scenes. Uh, some of our larger. Lenders, if you will, um, speak at my conference at least. And really, you know, how do we connect different people with different areas and, and understanding that one size doesn't fit all. You know, we're gonna have different players, right? [00:28:09] If you wanna be a broker, we're gonna have a space for you. If you wanna be a balance sheet lender, you're, we talk about things that balance sheet lenders care about, and then it securitize, right? Which is something, you know, my old firm does, and I'll do very well as well, which is how do we connect those people and make sure that they, they understand, Hey, here's your securitization rules, here's the people who can raise money for you. [00:28:27] How do we stop, make this one stop shop for you? And so, you know, competition, I, I think, uh, uh, you know, clients will, will decide that for themselves. You know, my, my goal of course will be continue to add value, continue to pump out information as I always have, um, really, you know, show the industry kind of where I've been the last 20 years and, and show them where I'm going the next 20 years. [00:28:48] And I think clients make those decisions themselves. You know, who do you feel confident with can take you to the next level? You know, do, do you take somebody who's been doing it and created a lot of these things like a PL and the conference line in the firm? Um, you know, and hopefully that, that's a value to people and, uh, if it is, hopefully they call me and, and I'm happy to show them the way. [00:29:03] Right. [00:29:04] Rocky: Uh, that's great. And, uh, as far as the conference goes, so you said you're gonna start a new conference line. Um, the, the conference, uh, you know, the conferences and private lending already seem a bit crowded. Uh, what are your plans for the conference in terms of, you know, uh, how many you're gonna have, where are you gonna host 'em? [00:29:23] Do you have those plans set out yet? [00:29:25] Anthony Geraci: I do. Yeah. So yeah, you're probably your first to hear it, right? 'cause uh, uh, I haven't shown anyone else yet. We don't have a website up yet. Uh, first conference to take place in February in Vegas. Um, 'cause uh, you know, this is my playground. I think everybody loves Vegas as well. [00:29:37] Uh, but it's gonna be more of a hybrid. And so, um, my goal is to have brokers, if you will. My goal is to train new brokers in the space. Like, truly get people who have touched the space, but are really trying to figure out what private lending is. Um, I would almost go take a throwback to 2002, right? You had a lot of people, at least in the subprime space, right? [00:29:56] Not really hard money, but subprime, they're learning how to be brokers, you know, it's, it's, it's hot and heavy. Um, they, people are learning, uh, we're gonna train them how to be brokers as well, so that'd be part one. So I don't expect any private lenders. Is that part really just training, training, you know, real estate professionals, investors, what have you? [00:30:11] Get a, get a room of 200 to 500 people and train them how, how to be private lenders and then see who really wants to take to the next level because the right after that show will be. The, the next event, which, you know, we're actually gonna bring the, the lenders and I'll, I think we'll have a couple of tracks, right? [00:30:25] Are you a balance sheet lender or are you a securitizer? Right. Balance sheet lenders. They're, they're not interested in going to, you know, find the next warehouse line, right? They're, they're not trying to leverage their fund, they're trying to, you know, keep on growing and stuff like that. So keep it educational, you know, uh, truly educational in that space, uh, with what are the latest trends and, and how can you, you know, shore up your mortgage fund, for instance, or how can you shore up different, different loans or, or thoughts like that. [00:30:46] And here's some xs maybe for defaults strategies. And then of course, securitizer. Let's talk about capital markets. Let's say where we're going and, you know, add, add to the conversation, if you will. I will say it'll least the, the similar conversations, but I'll say with new people, people who have been in this space for years that you don't hear about, uh, will be at the conference. [00:31:03] So I'm excited to have them there. [00:31:04] Rocky: And you said the, the brokers are gonna be one conference, do you, do you mean that the lenders would be a separate day or, or this is a totally different conference at a different date to separate the brokers from the lenders? [00:31:17] Anthony Geraci: Yeah, it'll be a separate day, but it'll be affiliated. [00:31:19] So the first two days will be brokers only training them how to be brokers. And then the whole idea is to have a crossover. Have those brokers really want to mingle with lenders to come to that lending conference the next day. So it'll be four day, four day event total, but two days for brokers, two days for lenders. [00:31:32] Rocky: Alright. And focus again on, on just real estate investment lending. Right? [00:31:37] Anthony Geraci: You got it. Okay. Yeah, it's hard to merge all those fields 'cause those are two different things. Um, uh, but yeah, I, I foc I plan to focus just on real estate lending and the conference line for now, but we, we may add stuff for student lending to the extent that we think we can add value to that conversation. [00:31:50] Rocky: Okay. Sounds good. Uh, let's, uh, let's talk a little bit about, uh, about a PL. Um, well, actually, let's back up. Let's, um, so you, you did start a PL, but, but let's talk about how you got started in private lending. I don't normally go into this with, with my interviews, um, but in, in your case, I, I think it's relevant. [00:32:10] Um, so what year did you start out, uh, in, in, in private lending law, if you will? [00:32:17] Anthony Geraci: 2005. So it was my first job outta law school. Um, I worked for, uh, uh, de Doss at, uh, Doss Law for a couple years and, uh, you know, kinda learned, uh, uh, lending, you know, of course, you know, gosh, rewind to 2005, um, subprime days. You know, it, it's funny, I can tell stories that probably aren't even relevant today, but, um, those were the days that subprime, you know, was a darling of Wall Street, if you will. [00:32:40] And, uh, you had New Sentry Option One. I know names that have been historically erased, but, uh, uh, those are the things I grew up in. And, and, you know, learning about Truth and Winning Act and Reg Z and, uh, some of the stuff that, you know, I, I cut my teeth on and created a career out of, um, just fond memories of that stuff. [00:32:57] So yeah, started there and then 2007 launched my own firm. Um, for a couple, you know, a couple reasons is, you know, right. It's funny, I launched it right during the subprime crisis, right when 2007 was happening. I decided that was the time to launch a firm. Um, you know, the, the timing could have been better, but, uh, it was al also such a great run as well. [00:33:16] Um, I still have some amazing stories. Uh. I'll, I'll rewind it back to 2008, if you will. Um, I dunno if you remember New Century back in the day. So, uh, Bob Cole and Ed Tcho were old clients of mine. And, uh, you know, I don't think I've really told this story in public. I just tell it to a few people and, uh, they're supposed to come to my office, you know, right. [00:33:34] When I watched the new firm, I was like, Anthony, we were, we're doing it again. We're gonna watch New Century again. And, uh, so I talked to them and, uh, you know, so I was like, wait, let, let's, whenever you guys are ready, let's talk again. And, uh, unfortunately Ed passed away a couple months later after that, that, uh, uh, meeting. [00:33:49] And then I remember talking to Bob, I was like, Bob, you got you. What are you gonna do? Are you gonna start this again? Or what do you wanna do? I was like, I'm not doing it without Ed. And so, you know, I I would say the new New Century got shelved, uh, as a result of that. But, uh, uh, just a reminder of the times that, you know, just, just how long I've been in the space and, and how things have changed, but how things have stayed the same as well. [00:34:10] Rocky: Well, they, they've definitely changed. I remember, um, first knowing about you or, or seeing you at, uh, at my first A A PL conference. Um, and, and so, so that was also a long time ago, and that was a totally different landscape at the time. So since I mentioned a PL, tell us about, about that journey. Uh, when did you start the American Association of Private Lenders and how did you get that idea to do that? [00:34:35] Anthony Geraci: Yeah, I'll, I'll give you some trivia too. Uh, so it was 2008, uh, when it started, and uh, the first name of it was National Hard Money Association. Uh, probably people don't even remember that back in the day. Um, but yeah, it's 2008. And so the idea behind it was. Everything, kinda what we talked about, right, is the private lending was really fractional. [00:34:54] You had California Mortgage Association, which of course is a great organization still standing today. You have, uh, Arizona Private Lending Lenders Association. So each state had it. And I think at that time it really made sense to only be state level because everything you were doing in lending, at least at that time, just affected states. [00:35:09] You had truthful lending acts and override overarching laws, but you didn't, it didn't really affect people in private lending, right? You could easily comply and then you really had to worry about your state. And then, if you remember right, 2008 came and we had this lovely act called Dodd-Frank. Uh, and Dodd-Frank really changed the landscape to a lot of respects. [00:35:26] Still just consumer, but to me it was kind of the seeds of what was lending gonna be like the next 15, 20 years. And, and looking around, there wasn't an organization that, that really spoke to on a national level to, to lend private lending. And so the National Hard Money Association, uh, was created back in 2008. [00:35:44] Uh, we, we launched it and actually got about 2020 lenders all across the, the nation. Um, as you can imagine, probably a third of them were California. 'cause that's where my base was. Uh, and of course a lot of great lenders back then, but we still got people from Kansas, New York. Everything came in. And, uh, I still remember at the meeting today is like, we were halfway through the, the, the, the focus meeting of, of what should we do? [00:36:04] What should this look like? And I was like, yeah, we really don't like hard money lending. I was like, well, what should it be? Um, but we like the term private lender. I was like, okay. Um, you know, I, I think people understand hard money lending. That's what it's always been. But if you like private lending, let's, let's do it. [00:36:20] And so. The name was changed after that conference. Our first conference in oh eight was changed from National Hard Money Associate to American Association and Private Lenders. Um, funny enough, you start looking at the initials of it, it's a A PL, which is of course is the Apple sign, which is now it, the original logo of a PL wast apple, you know, red, red and white with an little apple. [00:36:39] And I think it was changed to get rid of the, the, the leaf, at least to make it look more of a, a, a circle. 'cause no one liked the A A PO reference. But, uh, that's, that's a fun trivia history. [00:36:49] Rocky: Interesting. And so, so your first meeting was in 2008. Uh, did you, did you always have it in Vegas? And, and because I, I only started attending in 2013, so, so did you have, uh, an event in 2000 9, 10, 11, and 12? [00:37:04] Always. [00:37:04] Anthony Geraci: Yeah. From 2008 on, we've always had an event. Um, 2008 probably isn't credited by a PL 'cause it was more of a focus group. We turned it into a like 2025 focus group. That was our actual first comp. Conference, we'll put in quotes. Um, because there's only 20 people. We want turn it more into a focus group to see what do we want this association to be. [00:37:21] Um, so, and then 2009, when this was our first conference, I think we had something like 116 attendees. Uh, again, a good portion of California just where my draw was. But you know, the whole idea was how do we get people nationwide to understand, hey, there's this national association now we want you to be part of it. [00:37:36] And, and the first couple of years people were like, well, why do I need to be part of this national thing? I live in Pennsylvania, I only loan in Pennsylvania. Um, and at that time, you know, people were just starting to run regionally, right? Not even, of course today it's a 50 state lending, but back then it's like, well, why should I, why, why should I go to my state? [00:37:52] I'm fine with my state. And then people started realizing, at least in California, you know, historically, 'cause there's a lot of, you know, private lending was pretty sophisticated in California, had a lot of people doing it. So the cost of capital was lower. Uh, not as low as it's today, but call it 12% in one or two points. [00:38:09] You go to your neighboring lovely state of Arizona and their, their private lender is getting 14% in four points. They're like, Hey, this is nice. I'm getting paid more over here. Lemme do more loans in Arizona. So yeah, as they started getting the more re regional focus, they, they expanded and, and saw, if you will, the differences. [00:38:25] And then, you know, almost fast forward to today, and we'll come back to, to where we're at, is you, you start seeing this national footprint, national presence because they're able to leverage, you know, the cost of capital, you know, able to drive bargains down and get more deal flow. And that's, that's where you're seeing a lot of competitiveness right now, is just, just for the supply of capital as you know. [00:38:44] Rocky: Um, at, you know, for, for me it was, it was a, it was kind of a turning point in my business 'cause uh, you know, I started officially this, my site, private lender link.com launched in, in 2010. Uh, but it didn't become a real business for about three years. And that's just because it took about three years before. [00:39:02] The site started ranking in Google searches. I didn't have a marketing budget at the time to, to go out and advertise. I didn't know if it was gonna work. I just, I didn't know. But, but then it started to work and, and then I started looking up, Hey, where can I meet private lenders? Because at the time I was just looking online and whichever lender had a, a website where they looked legitimate. [00:39:21] Uh, even the, you know, whether they said that they were direct lender or not, who knows? Right. So I, I always thought that the best way to vet lenders was to meet them in person. So I, I attended the, uh, the a PL conference in 2013 and it, it really, I think was, was such a turning point in my business because I, I kind of learned about, you know, about how legitimate the space is and, and saw the real people behind it and met people from all over the country. [00:39:46] So I, I always appreciated that conference and, and I, I haven't missed any since that year. [00:39:52] Anthony Geraci: Yeah, I know. It, it, it's really amazing, isn't it? Um, I still remember those years too. It was like, uh, Dodd-Frank was still being fleshed out back in 20 12, 20 13, right? The, you studied regs that were still being promulgated five years after these statutes came out. [00:40:04] Some of 'em weren't even effective yet without those regulations. Um, so it, it's crazy how, how things move slow, uh, in those early years and, and as things have, have, if you will, snowballed, right? And as a a PL has found its niche as well as, you know, readily representing the industry itself of, you know, getting up to 800 people, you know, and, and how, how do you serve this industry in such a way that it makes sense to, to, to represent a nation? [00:40:28] And I think you're starting to see also is like no longer do we just, just have these state specific bills. You've got some, some larger federal bills aimed at Right. Lending too. And I think that's gonna just cap it as, as the space gets bigger. [00:40:39] Rocky: Absolutely. Uh, and, and so you've, so you started this association. [00:40:45] I thought it, I think it was a brilliant move to do that. And, um, um, you know, and it, and it was a, has been a really amazing conference, um, very well put together. Um, I've made a lot of connections. I know a lot of other people have. I think at the time the only other conference out there was the pit bull conference. [00:41:02] And, um, and it just had a, a totally different, um, you know, persona if you will. It, it was, uh, you know, you would, you would look at the marketing materials and it, it, you would just have a different impression of it. And, and I didn't attend only because of timing. It was just, um, you know, I know there were, they were in Vegas a lot of times for me, the timing didn't work out, so it took me a while before I started attending those events. [00:41:24] But, but you know, there were only those two conferences. Um, but now you've got all these other. Uh, conferences that have been born out of, out of these two organizations, like you've got, like, you know, your firm started a conference series. Um, uh, so now there's two conferences, and then out of Pit Bull conference, uh, Brett Avi started, uh, his own conference, uh, NLE or Leverage Con. [00:41:49] Um, and then, and then uh, pit Bull got sold and uh, and, and now the National Private Lenders Association has their own conference series. Then, then Leonard Rosen's son, Matt started his own conference, American Lending Conference. And, um, you know, there, there are some of these conferences that have a little bit of focus on, on other sectors, but they're all primarily private lending. [00:42:14] Um, and, and I always thought it's amazing how all of these conferences are still successful. You've got. You've got essentially almost one a month. Um, you know, you could, you could have probably 12 conferences in a year of, of just private lending. And, and it seems like they still do well enough to continue. [00:42:29] Um, is it, is it, do you think it's just because people just keep going to more and more conferences, even even people who are in our industry, they just, they attend one and they feel the need to attend another? Or is there, is there just that many people out there who, who like going to these conferences? [00:42:47] Anthony Geraci: I think a little bit of both, but I, I would say I would almost, uh, take a different tack on it, which is people go where they find value, right? And so there's something to be said about seeing the same people, even if you attend all the conferences, right? One, if you're going, you must see some value in it. [00:43:01] You're not gonna go where you're wasting time and if you don't get value, you won't attend. So I would, I would say that as a threshold. And then the second thing is, think about. Even in our space, or I would say any space, it takes time to develop relationships, right? And so if you're seeing them on, if you will, a monthly basis, kinda like what you're saying is, is it better to see them on a monthly basis at the con these conferences and maybe accelerate that timeframe to where now you make that relationship, uh, versus having to go to only see 'em twice or three times a year, or maybe even worse, having to go, go find, you know, people drive to, you know, LA or Vegas or Miami, wherever they're located, to have those separate meetings to accelerate that timeline as well. [00:43:38] Um, the, the thing I would to say is maybe, you know, especially if everybody's still attending all these conferences, then one, they're getting value of it, and two, it's finally, you know, these are the people, these are the relationships you wanna make everywhere. So you're seeing all the people on a monthly basis. [00:43:52] And they get different value from the conferences, maybe, maybe there's a place for all of them For sure. So [00:43:57] Rocky: that's true also for me because, uh, you know, there was a couple of years where I was attending every single conference out there, and a bunch of them I was sponsoring. So it was a big expense. It was a big effort, but, but it, it really, it really helped to grow my business. [00:44:10] And, and I, I really enjoy the conferences. I, you know, I, I love meeting people in our space. A lot of them. I already know. I like meeting new people. And, and yeah, to your point, I, I really enjoy going back, you know, to all these conferences and in a different place. And even if it's a lot of the same people, for me, at least for my business, I, I enjoy it, you know, even if, even if it's, I see people that I'm not, uh, I'm not doing business with, or I, maybe I'll never do business with them. [00:44:35] I always learn something from them. There's always some value there. But, you know, I always think about the lenders where they, you know, they have, they have an agenda of, Hey, I need to get this much business out of it. You know? And then you get other lenders that say, Hey, I just wanna learn. I just wanna talk to people and see what. [00:44:50] What they're seeing and, and you know, so everyone has certain things that they get out of these conferences. So, but I think they're all important. I just, you know, I, I just worry that, that people feel like there's too many of them, but, but at least it's good to have options. 'cause then you could just pick and choose what works for your location preference or your time of the year. [00:45:09] Anthony Geraci: Yeah, I was gonna say that. Yeah, I think, I think the, the people will speak, right? You know, if there, if there's too many conferences, you'll see people not going to some, right. And I think people go where they get value, you know, if they, if they, you know, stop getting value from somewhere, maybe they'll stop going to those conferences. [00:45:22] But if you're still getting, getting value from all of them, maybe it makes sense to go to all of them or, or maybe select and choose. I, you know, I, you know, I, I, I definitely hear where you're coming from. It's like, oh, there's so many. But I also hear, you know, um, you know, I think Matts is the, the newest conference line before I launched mine. [00:45:36] Right. And, and he's doing well, you know, he is getting a lot of attendees there too. So I, it sounds like there's, there's more than enough, you know, if you will, attendees to go around to all the conferences. So, uh, I say let the people speak and, and if you don't see, you know, if you don't see value, I think they'll stop attending. [00:45:49] Rocky: Sure. Yeah. And it seems like a PL has grown to be the biggest one, uh, in, in our industry. And it's, and it's, it's just one per year. Um, and it, it, it's an interesting time of the year. It, it's a good time of the year because there's not as, there's not as many other conferences in, in November. So, so that one's done well, and, um, that's very consistent. [00:46:08] Um, and, and speaking of the A PLI, I didn't ask you this earlier, but, um, but you, you started it, but then I think at a, at a certain time you had had Let it Go, you sold it. Uh, and Mike Ren was, was the one that was, uh, leading it. And Mike Ren, for people who don't know, is, um, was the, the principal of, uh, uh, en reg, the National Real Estate Investment Group. [00:46:31] Right. Or, I'm sorry, national Insurance. Uh, yeah. Anyways, I, I don't know what it stands for, but yes. [00:46:38] Anthony Geraci: That's a good question. I don't want to, I don't want, I don't wanna say either. 'cause I'm, I may be unsure. Okay. I thought you were right the first time around, so. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I've always had a piece of ownership. [00:46:47] Right. But I, I had sold a majority of my ownership to Mike Ren. Um, you know, and, and that was a actually a time, you know, where, um, you know, Mike Ren was running things and, and. At, at the time. You know, I love where a PL is now, but at the time A a PL is going a different direction than than where I thought it should go. [00:47:03] And that's actually why, you know, I hired Ruby, um, to be, uh, my marketing coordinator all the way back in 2014. And, uh, you know, we, we built a conference line for, uh, GI Rossi at that time, uh, because I saw something very different. You know, I saw a vision that was different from a PL. Um, and you know, I, I, I, you know, I think if you've already got a sense of me, right, I'm gonna wish everybody well and, and take the high road everywhere. [00:47:25] It's just, you know, when I see something where I, I want to create something, I'm gonna create that vision. And, and, you know, so, so at the time, you know, when he was running, it didn't go the way it was, but of course, now you got Eddie, you know, Eddie Wilson, who, uh, uh, he and I are, are owners of a PL. And, uh, you know, it's awesome to see where he's taken it. [00:47:43] And with Linda, you know, as president, she's, she's done such an amazing job moving everything over there. Um, you know, it's in a path I think that, you know, was more true to my original vision. So it's awesome to see where A A PL is going. Um, you know, and, you know, I cheer him on and of course I'm still vice chairman of A A PL, so keep on, uh, working that one as well. [00:48:00] Rocky: Alright. And then with your, uh, your role being Vice Chairman, um, I mean, how involved are you, uh, in, in a A PL? Are, are you, uh, you know, do you, do you look at stuff that's happening on a monthly basis or, or do you just, do they just reach out to you when, when they need some advice or as. [00:48:20] Anthony Geraci: Yeah, I have meanings. [00:48:20] I help with the shape, the vision, you know, of a A PL and where it's headed, where it's going. Um, uh, you know, another, another fund trivia is I created the original courses, the fund manager and the, uh, private lending associate for a PL. Um, you know, and, and there's some stuff that they're working on in the background right now, you know, that I'm hopefully, you know, shaping the vision as well. [00:48:36] So I don't want to, you know, release that before they're ready. So I'll let them make those announcements when they're ready. But, uh, I think you'll see some new things coming out from a PL was some pretty cool stuff. Um, and, uh, you know, I hope I've had a small hand in, you know, helping them shape that vision for that as well. [00:48:49] So more, more, more helping them. Where, where does a PL, what, what does it stand for? Where does it go? And, and where does it want to go as an organization? [00:48:57] Rocky: And, uh, if you're okay disclosing this or talking about it, is, is Ttra law, uh, gonna continue to be general counsel for a PL? [00:49:06] Anthony Geraci: Um, you know, that, I don't know. [00:49:07] That's, uh, not my decision necessarily. Um, I leave that to Linda and, uh, we'll see where that goes. Yeah, I, I don't know whether that'll continue or not. [00:49:15] Rocky: Okay. Fair enough. And, uh, alright. And then let's talk about, um, let's talk about some of your other ventures that are non-private lending. So, so the first one that I heard that you, uh, started was, was Move, which was a, uh, a virtual assistant service. [00:49:33] Um, where, where, uh, you can, you can, uh, uh, let's say mainly, I'm guessing most of your clients in that business are, uh, are private lenders or, or they're in the real estate industry, right. So you got it. So the, the, the concept is from what, from what I gather, is that, um, that you wanna outsource, uh, certain tasks or, or, uh, or roles and, and you have a team in the Philippines that, uh, that are virtual assistants for, uh, for your clients. [00:50:00] Tell us a little bit more about that business and what made you start that. [00:50:04] Anthony Geraci: You got it. Yeah. So, so it's, it's, it was definitely something that I started in Geraci, um, believe it or not, um, you know, embracing during COVI, uh, this global workforce, um, we started in the Philippines, but actually I, I've expanded to about three or four other countries. [00:50:17] You know, there has to be a certain, uh, momentum in certain, if you'll infrastructure to, to make sense. But yeah, the question comes down to if you have a global workforce, why not embrace it? You know, you have to be aware of cultural differences and some other things, but a lot of that stuff is trainable. [00:50:32] And, uh, Philippines is great as our countries, you know, you look, you look for a, a certain work ethic, you know, of people, you know, hardy work ethic, that people are really, um, driven by helping companies achieve their goals. And there's a delta, if you will, in, um, the cost of living. Right. So, you know, you don't have to pay necessarily, you know, huge wages. [00:50:51] Um, but, you know, I wanna be clear is like you're still paying not only competitive wage, but higher wage than they're able to get locally. Um, so it's a win-win for the company as well as the, the, the global workforce, uh, training or talent, if you will. Um, so yeah, I started that the, in 2020. Um, hired our, my first person there, uh, Michael mcfe. [00:51:09] Um, so he's still there, I believe, as a litigation. And, uh, just, just a great guy all around. And then, you know, the firm expanded, you know, I think, uh, when I left probably 30 people in the Philippines serving various roles within, within the, uh, um, company. And then I, I took that to Stratus. Funny enough, um, you know, Stratus actually, uh, embraced the global workforce talent and I would say 20% of the workforce is onshore in the United States, and 80% is offshore as a result. [00:51:36] Um, you know, the trick comes down to what can you process and systematize that someone can follow? And if it could be predictable, you know, 90% of the time you could probably get someone outsourced to global talent to, to make that happen. Um, so, you know, some roles that we've been able to outsource pretty successfully, your loan officer assistants, uh, underwriting assistants, as well as, uh, developers, you know, your web develop. [00:52:00] Rocky: So you started hiring virtual assistants for your law firm, and then you got the idea to start, move, to offer this to, to your clients and anyone else in any other business owners. [00:52:11] Anthony Geraci: You gotta I had a few conversations with clients. They're like, well, you know, how do you do that? It was like, yeah. And funny if I would just tell people, here's what you do. [00:52:19] And, and I, uh, they would say, gosh, that, that sounds like a lot of work. Um, I don't know if I wanna do it. I, I just looked puzzled. It was like, yeah, but if you invest some time and energy into it, you're gonna save 50% of off your labor. You know, doesn't that make sense for you? I was like, well, maybe. I was like, do you wanna do it? [00:52:33] I was like, I, I actually honestly didn't consider it at the time, but I was like, I had a couple people that, that, you know, once you plant a seed in my head, you know, I, I've always been somebody who, if I see a need, I try to fill the need right as much as I can. If you plant that seed in my head, it's like, all right, well maybe, maybe there's a need here that we can fulfill. [00:52:48] And that's actually why I launched Move, uh, two years ago. Um, how, how do I fulfill these needs? And, uh, it's funny because I think, I think I hinted that earlier. I don't see my law firm as independent from all my other companies. Like it's all, all makes sense together, more or less, right? I take learnings and, and, and, and teachings from each company and apply 'em to all companies. [00:53:07] And so with Move, for instance, is I, I see a need or I see the ability to train people, you know, on, on different aspects of private lending, right? So imagine they learn the mortgage softwares that we have, if they learn the accounting systems that we have and what value can they add to our private lenders, uh, as a result. [00:53:22] So it's, it's, uh, uh, to me it, it's, it's, it's amazing And I think we can save a lot of our private lenders a lot of money by hiring what we call movables, unmovable people. And, you know, give them training and, and just again, that win-win, you know, making them more competitive to do more deals and loans. [00:53:38] Rocky: And so you are sort of like a, a virtual assistant placement management company. Where, where if, if, let's say I was a lender, uh, I needed a virtual assistant, I would, uh, I would come to move and then you help me find the assistant. You manage them, um, in, in terms of their, you know, personnel and, and whatever, you know, manage the, they're the, they're the employee of, of move, uh, or the contractor. [00:54:04] And then, and then I just pay, move, and then, and then if I need a different assistant or another one, then I just go through you guys to, [00:54:11] Anthony Geraci: you got it. That way we, we take care of all the compliance with the local laws and regulations. Um, we train them to the extent we can. Obviously people have their own ways of doing things, so we'll train 'em on their processes as well. [00:54:21] Um, we have something like 45 certifications we have of different roles. So they take our courses and then, you know, we think they're at least part, you know, basically trained to work with our clients at that point. So depending on what role they're being hired for, what would make 'em take our certifications and then, then go from there. [00:54:35] Rocky: Okay. And are there any other industries you've targeted outside of private lending? [00:54:39] Anthony Geraci: Yeah, so legal space of course, which I've done before, as well as uh, um, you know, we're open to almost all areas, um, where it makes sense, but, uh, a lot of spaces it makes sense is, is bookkeeping. So there's a dearth of bookkeepers funny enough out there. [00:54:53] Um, you even have accountants on the onshore that are having just. Difficult times, find accountants and, and bookkeepers on shore. Um, so that's, that's been issued there. Um, and something that we can solve by finding bookkeepers offshore and, and people who really understand, uh, that, um, social media, another thing, you know, where there's, there's a delta if it's very expensive to hire onshore social media manager, but offshore makes a lot more sense. [00:55:16] Um, and so anything that we can train that, that, you know, touches a computer has been something that we can, we can, uh, work with, [00:55:21] Rocky: uh, primarily private lending, uh, legal and, and anything real estate related as, as kind of been your focus, I'm assuming [00:55:31] Anthony Geraci: you got it. Yeah, but we, we have, we have, uh, some collection companies that have used this a lot. [00:55:35] You know, there's process that stuff. And then, um, we have a couple of, uh, of, uh. Marketing agencies that use this for social media managers and, and, uh, project managers as well. [00:55:46] Rocky: Nice. Uh, and let's talk about your other, uh, venture Stratus Financial. So, so this is, uh, this is a, um, you know, private lending for pilots that, that need to pay for their, for their pilot school, right. [00:56:00] Or flights. You got it. Flight school. How did, how did you start that and when did that start? [00:56:04] Anthony Geraci: So, it's funny, um, you know, I just fall into things as I like to say. Um, so I was, uh, learning how to fly, uh, plane during COI. And, uh, my business partner there and a friend, uh, Brandon, he owned a flight school and, uh, he's the one I was training at in Riverside. [00:56:19] And, you know, I was working on my instrument rating, which is what you get right after private pilot. And, uh, I was talking with him and, and just hanging around the flight school and you, you're seeing people, you know, come and go and you start to make relationships with people. The gentleman who was sitting dispatch dispatch is the person who coordinates the planes coming in and out. [00:56:38] Uh, he was working on an instrument rating and I was as well. So we're going along the same path, but he's been, he had had his pilot's license for three years and I just got my private pilot's license like the last month. And so I just asked him, you know, I was like, Hey, I don't, I hope you don't mind. I'm just nosy if you will. [00:56:52] What's taking you so long in, in getting your, your pilot's license is like, I'm doing this for fun. I, I can take any time whatsoever, but you're doing this for a career. I doesn't, shouldn't you just move faster? I would think, um, you know what, what's the hold back for you? He said, well, I don't have any funding. [00:57:08] And I was like, I don't understand. I was like, you don't have how to fill a FAFSA form? Like I did that for, for college. It's like, um, you know, I was like, I could probably figure that out for you. And he looked at me like I'm an idiot. Rightly so. 'cause it didn't make any sense. It's like, there's no funding here, period. [00:57:20] It is like, you're right. I don't understand. And so I started doing research and, you know, unless you're like a Title four school, like at colleges or institutions, there's no federal funding for, for a lot of vocational schools, if you will. Not just aviation, but any vocational school, there's no funding in there. [00:57:34] So students are relegated, if you will, to private lenders, you know, kind kinda like we're talking about real estate, but private lenders for student loans, you know, it's those private student loans. Um, so I remember going to Brandon's office and I was like, Hey man. You can't get funding. I don't understand. [00:57:49] Don't you guys have funding? It's like, yeah, I've been wanting to talk to you about that. It's like, I wanna get student loans from my school. It's like, you know, I've, I wanna get funding and funds and stuff like that. So I go back and do some research and, and you know, just realize like even back then, this was 2020 I wanna say, and the total addressable market was $4 billion. [00:58:04] I'm like, this is a lot bigger than one school. This is huge. Um, so, you know, started, you know, with my own, my own funds and uh, you know, we came out with a few products and like any great business owner, right? Those first few products, uh, we were laughed at and, uh, canceled. Um, you know, so the first product that was so amazing was a five year Fully AM student loan. [00:58:24] It was like, I don't understand. It's perfect. Investors will love this. They get paid off in five years. Of course, the payments were $4,000 a month. So you can imagine students aren't paying $4,000 a month for any student loan, and they looked at you like you're an idiot. Uh, it's like, oh gosh, well that didn't work out so well. [00:58:38] And go, went back to the drawing board, right. And, and try to figure out what makes sense on both the investor and and borrower side. So of course, longer term had to happen. So, you know, right now Stratus does 10 or 15 year notes and, um, you know, amortizes those loans, you know, those payments so that they're more affordable, um, especially in the, in the aviation space. [00:58:57] Rocky: So you, you mentioned earlier that you started a, a fund, uh, right. Is that typically how, how the loans are funded? It's just, and it's just balance sheet? Or, or is there a secondary market for these? [00:59:07] Anthony Geraci: Uh, we're creating a secondary market. There's not really a secondary market right now, so I, I consider it what private lending was in 2010, right there, trying to get attention to, to it. [00:59:16] So we're very much balance sheeting these loans right now. Uh, we have a couple forward flows, uh, but a lot of these are definitely held in our funds. Um, our investors are complaining, you know, given the nice, nice returns right now, um, 16% plus. So, uh, they're pretty happy with that. And then we pair it just with debt, you know, that, that keeps that, you know, weighted average down. [00:59:34] Uh, but those three funds are, are definitely balance sheeting, the loans. And then, you know, our goal is to figure out, well, do we forward flow? Do we securitize? How do we get our next partner, if you will? And that's what, you know, currently as of today, right? We've got about 75 million in loans we've done. [00:59:48] Uh, our goal is to grow this to 200 million and keep on growing it from there. And how, how do we get the funds, if you will, to pair up with our origination platform. [00:59:57] Rocky: Nice. And, and what are the typical amounts that students need to, uh, to fund their, or to pay for their pilot school? [01:00:04] Anthony Geraci: A lot smaller than the private lending loans. [01:00:06] Uh, about a hundred thousand dollars on average. Our average loan is actually just smaller, so, so lower than that, about $90,000. [01:00:12] Rocky: Okay. Uh, all right. That sounds good. And then do you have any plans to get into any other, uh, sectors as far as, as far as starting your own finance company? [01:00:24] Anthony Geraci: Not right now. Um, you know, I guess, you know, I never wanna pigeonhole myself as you can see. [01:00:28] I, I, I, I, I say yes to a lot of things, uh, but nothing on the drawing board, I promise you right now. Uh, my next move really is just, you know, doubling down in the private lending space and how do I continue to add value? So, you know, the, I don't see any, any new things on the horizon, but I don't also say no, you know, if there's something that really makes sense to solve a problem, you know, my clients or, you know, any other space, I'd gladly say yes. [01:00:51] Rocky: Alright. Sounds great. Uh, alright, Anthony, that's all I had on my list for today. Was there anything else, uh, you wanted to chat about or anything I missed? [01:01:00] Anthony Geraci: No, I, I love it. You know, I, as I said, it's, it's funny, I, I don't think I've actually come on a podcast before and talked a lot about this stuff like, you know, A a PL and all this stuff and all the fun stuff. [01:01:07] So I've really enjoyed this. You know, it's a, uh, one, it's been fun to talk about. Then also, you know, uh, uh, a trip down memory lane, not in a lot of respects. And, uh, just excited for the future and we're private lending's growing and going. Um, you know, for me, I still think it's, it's in, in its infancy. I think 10 years from now is gonna be completely, completely different where it's today, um, even more institutionalized. [01:01:27] I don't think that train is sailing anytime soon. You're gonna keep on seeing that going. And I think we're gonna see a lot more, um, uh, sophistication, uh, as well as a lot more, uh, uh, people really finding their own niche within the space. Where do they want to be and where they want to go. And securitization isn't for everybody. [01:01:44] You know, they, they'll be very happy balance sheet lending and that's all they want do, and make a good return for the next 20 years and, and call it a day. So, uh, uh, you know, our goal is just to be a part of it and just, uh, be part of the ecosystem, [01:01:55] Rocky: right? Looking forward to seeing you grow that business. [01:01:58] Looking forward to seeing you at, uh, your conference upcoming and, and all the other conferences out there that, that you might be attending. [01:02:06] Anthony Geraci: I look forward to it. [01:02:06] Rocky: All right, I'll see you there. All right, Anthony, thanks for your time. And that's a wrap for this episode. Visit GI Rossi's website to learn more about their legal services. [01:02:16] The website URL is GeraciLLP.com. I put a link to that in the description along with the websites for, uh, his move business and, uh, Stratus Financial. Visit their websites, learn about them. Reach out. Please mention that you heard about them from Lender Link and the Private Lending Insights podcast. I hope you found this episode to be insightful. [01:02:39] Thank you for tuning in and listening all the way to the end.