Latest / MCA Scuttlebutt / #195: Catching Up with Old Friends – Will Schick

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#195: Catching Up with Old Friends – Will Schick · MCA Scuttlebutt

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Hey, Scuttlebutt listeners. This is episode 195.
1:48
This week, we have another episode in our
1:50
segment, Catching Up with Old Friends.
1:53
In this episode, we welcome Will Schick back
1:56
to the show.
1:57
Will is one of the scuttlebutt
1:59
OGs.
2:00
For those of us who grew up in
2:02
the eighties and nineties,
2:03
OGs has a very specific meaning.
2:06
But for the context of a podcast,
2:08
we'll just go with original guest.
2:11
He was our fourth guest, so please go
2:13
back and listen to episode four to hear
2:14
more about Will's background and service.
2:17
For those who missed it, Will is a
2:19
former marine intelligence officer
2:22
and is currently the director of programs and
2:24
partnerships at the Asian American Journalist Association.
2:28
It goes without saying, we did a good
2:30
bit of catching up, and it was great
2:32
to hear all the cool stuff Will is
2:33
doing in journalism
2:35
and mentoring the up and coming generation
2:37
to help them navigate this fraught media landscape.
2:40
And it was great to hear his perspective
2:42
on how we get information
2:44
and how we consume media.
2:46
Here is episode 195.
2:49
Hey, Scuttlebutt listeners. Thank you for joining us
2:51
in your continued support. I'm Vic,
2:54
and this is a, continuation of our series,
2:57
Catching Up with Old Friends. And so I'm
2:59
really happy,
3:01
to be welcoming,
3:02
a good friend of mine
3:04
and previous guest, Will Schick, to the show.
3:06
Will, thanks for coming, man, or being here.
3:10
Yep.
3:11
So,
3:12
unfortunately,
3:13
we're probably, like,
3:15
15 miles apart as the crow flies when
3:17
we're doing this remote.
3:18
So,
3:20
you know, this is what happens when you
3:22
do a weekday
3:23
afternoon
3:24
interview.
3:25
It's gotta be
3:27
You gotta move the location to this to,
3:28
like, a bar or you gotta make it
3:30
more enticing. Dude, we have we have a
3:33
mobile suite. I'm gonna This doesn't sound
3:36
doesn't sound fun.
3:37
Yeah. No. It's it's,
3:40
we did a,
3:42
when we were filming,
3:43
our Fallujah documentary, I was getting a lot
3:45
of audio.
3:47
And, one of the guests,
3:49
who did some of the voice over
3:51
on their account of Fallujah,
3:54
I made the mistake of bring bringing a
3:56
half rack with me to entice them to
3:58
do the thing. And so
4:00
it
4:01
really tails off then towards the end and
4:04
stuff. That's pretty funny.
4:06
Yeah.
4:07
So,
4:08
alright. Well, dude,
4:10
so it's been a while. Like, you were
4:12
one of our first guests
4:14
when we kicked the show off,
4:16
and so it's been a while, man. So
4:18
how's everything been, man? Let's catch up.
4:21
Yeah.
4:22
Gosh. I'm trying to remember the last time
4:24
we talked. I think I was probably still
4:25
working at Street Sense. That's right.
4:28
Newsroom covering poverty and homelessness.
4:30
And then I eventually reached the point there
4:34
where,
4:36
well, I, you know, I ended up getting
4:37
a new opportunity. So then I ended up
4:39
moving over to a place called the Asian
4:41
American Journalists Association
4:43
where
4:44
I help people become journalists and also to
4:47
do journalism better.
4:49
One of the things that I started thinking
4:50
about a lot when I used to work
4:52
at Street Sense,
4:53
which, you know, we work a lot with
4:55
folks who are homeless, worked a lot with
4:57
folks who are low income, living in poverty,
4:59
thinking about just policy,
5:02
the intersection of policy and, like, life, right,
5:04
and to tracking how,
5:06
policy decisions made at, like, the city council
5:09
level that impacted, like, people locally.
5:12
So, yeah, while I was there, I started
5:13
thinking a lot about who gets to do
5:15
this journalism because it seems to be a
5:17
very exclusive field.
5:19
And one of the,
5:20
big dis disparities or one of the one
5:23
of the gulfs one of the things that
5:24
I noticed was just different was
5:27
we had this, like, chunk of people who
5:28
sold the paper, and the chunk of people
5:30
who sold the paper tend to be folks
5:32
that are very low income,
5:35
predominantly
5:36
folks of color. And the folks who came
5:38
in for internships and the journalists who covered
5:40
the stories
5:41
were generally more well off.
5:43
And I started thinking about, wow. You know,
5:45
wouldn't it be cool if we got some
5:46
of these other folks to do some of
5:47
these stories? So we started doing that, and
5:49
we started working in that realm. And then
5:50
I started thinking about just broadly speaking. Yeah.
5:53
And just even my own challenge. Right? Like,
5:55
to to even make it in journalism as
5:57
a veteran
5:59
by itself is very difficult because there's, like,
6:01
all these preconceived notions. So when I talk
6:03
about the old itself even being exclusive, it's,
6:06
like, exclusive to people that have gone to,
6:07
like,
6:08
journalism school at, like, a very prestigious place,
6:11
and it's not always that welcoming field. So
6:14
as you got this opportunity, you go to
6:15
the Asian American Journal Association,
6:17
who had always been kind of helpful to
6:19
me just, like, on the side.
6:22
It was never really a place that I,
6:25
I had intended per se ongoing,
6:28
but I just like the people a lot.
6:30
And then I end up here, and it's
6:32
it's really rewarding, you know, working a lot
6:34
with,
6:36
just really students all over the country,
6:39
and also professionals. Right? So they I I
6:41
did their executive leadership training program.
6:45
Yeah. It's it's really great. And we're we're
6:47
doing a lot of different work.
6:50
I don't know if I should go into
6:51
examples of that. And one of the things
6:53
that we we did recently,
6:54
it was the, we published a style guide.
6:57
And so, you know, for
7:00
for rings, you know, I I always think
7:01
about, like, naval letter format. You know? Yeah.
7:04
In journalism, we have the AP style guide
7:06
and then and, like, in in the military,
7:08
you have, like, naval letter format or whatever
7:10
it's called now. I don't even know what
7:11
it's morphed to. I think some DOD
7:14
morphous thing that people are coming to. But
7:17
those kinds of guides, right, steer the kind
7:19
of conversation that you're able to have.
7:21
And so,
7:23
at a a j a,
7:25
we published our own style guide just, you
7:27
know, recently, I think, in the past couple
7:29
years. And our style guide,
7:31
kinda gets at some age in Asian American
7:35
issues and, you know, interrogates some of the
7:37
language that we use around like, that we
7:39
talk about stuff. So
7:40
one example of it is, you know, Russia,
7:42
Ukraine
7:43
conflict, the war.
7:45
Russia has been employing these drones
7:48
that are, like, self detonating. And so when
7:50
they hit, like, a vehicle, they just like
7:51
blow up. And they've been calling these drones,
7:55
the media,
7:56
in in just journals and journals. So we
7:57
call it describing these drones as kamikaze attacks
8:00
and kamikaze drones. Yeah. It's just, like, kind
8:02
of
8:03
pissed off a lot
8:05
of military vets like myself and other, like,
8:08
the Asian Americans who are like, dude, this
8:10
has something to do with Comic Con and
8:11
the attacks. Right. I mean, I got no
8:13
problem with you using the language. Right? But,
8:15
like, that means something. Right? That's like World
8:17
War two. That's like this whole other thing
8:19
that happened. Right? And, like, that's like, nobody's
8:23
actually like, a person is not piloting that
8:25
and crashing and dying. Right. Right.
8:28
And so maybe we call it something different.
8:31
And then they're like, well, what do you
8:32
call it? You can call it a self
8:33
detonating drone, an attack drone, like, anything. Right?
8:35
Describe what it does. And so,
8:38
you know, recently, we put that out there
8:40
and and, we were able to work with
8:42
different publications to even change the way that
8:44
they report on it to give you a
8:46
little more accuracy. We actually teamed up with
8:48
the military veterans journalism network, which is headed
8:51
by,
8:52
actually, several guys that were in the marines.
8:54
Those would be actually great people to talk
8:56
to. Yeah. No. That sounds really great. Yeah.
8:58
That's it. That's it. I didn't really understand
9:01
sort of the power of language,
9:04
and even the presentation of language until I
9:07
came here.
9:08
And then
9:09
you know? Because, I mean, even when we
9:10
were at AU,
9:12
like, the big thing was
9:16
understanding the form, playing with form, doing the
9:18
art.
9:20
Yes. You're sort of, like, MLA
9:23
adjacent, but, like like, no one's really gonna,
9:25
like, hold your feet to the fire
9:27
over some of the stuff,
9:29
as long as you,
9:30
like, can sort of explain
9:32
this is what I'm trying to do creatively.
9:35
And, guy, it's fine. You know, whatever.
9:39
Also, because we had so many workshops, it
9:41
was like, alright. You know?
9:42
You were being we were being graded on
9:44
it. So I never really,
9:47
understood the importance until I came here, and
9:49
they're like, yeah. We don't do AP. We
9:51
do Chicago Manual style. I'm like,
9:54
oh, great. I know all those. Like, what
9:56
are you talking about?
9:58
Of course, I know those.
10:00
And so I then I dive just diving
10:02
into it, and and it's like,
10:04
you know, it's almost like,
10:06
for theology folks out there, it's like the
10:08
different, like, biblical translations. You know? Like, oh,
10:10
well, you know, we're deciding to go with
10:12
this instead of this, and this is why.
10:14
Anyhow,
10:16
so what does that mean then? So you
10:17
guys put out your own style guide.
10:20
When you said you put it out, does
10:22
that mean that, like, you're sending it
10:25
to, these larger,
10:28
news outlets
10:29
for them to reference? Okay. So, one of
10:32
the things we we have members, about 2,000
10:34
members worldwide
10:35
as part of our association, and many of
10:37
them work in different newsrooms.
10:39
Okay. Inform the committee,
10:41
and our committee also consists of folks who
10:43
are editors at different places. And the whole
10:45
reason for that is, like, you know, it's
10:47
important I think, maybe for your listener audience
10:50
too, like, when you think about just having
10:51
a veteran's perspective.
10:52
Yeah. Oftentimes,
10:54
like, if you have a veteran who's a
10:55
journalist, like, that's kind of like a uniform.
10:58
And so, like, having somebody there to be
11:00
a part of that discussion can maybe who's
11:02
like, who is a veteran might be able
11:04
to point out that, like, hey. That story
11:06
you have on gun violence,
11:07
like, you you didn't really accurately describe what
11:09
a gun does. Like, I don't
11:11
and then to kind of, like, give that
11:13
sort of sanity check. Similarly with, like, AAJA,
11:16
you know, our members, our editors at various
11:18
publications, and we see this as kind of
11:20
like a brain trust. Like, does this even
11:22
make sense? Right? Yeah. And we've done stuff
11:24
in the past where it's like
11:26
you know, we had, like, victims of, like,
11:29
hate crimes, and it's like
11:32
can we just tell you how to pronounce
11:33
your names properly so you don't, like, mess
11:35
it up online? Yeah. Yeah. Set up when
11:37
you go, on broadcast. So we do things
11:40
like that where it's kind of like a
11:41
common sense thing.
11:43
But it is, yeah. And so when we
11:45
say publish it, we have a thing we
11:46
have a website
11:48
out there, a jstyleguide.org.
11:51
And then,
11:52
in addition to the website, you know, we've
11:54
we've we've been kind of just going around
11:55
touring different newsrooms and talking to people and
11:57
just showing them the stuff. And,
12:00
you know, we have a few I mean,
12:01
you know, basically, if it's, like, not a,
12:05
slur you know, if it's a slur, we
12:06
ask you not to use it, basically. And
12:09
then other things that there's a lot of
12:10
food for thought there. Right? Like and I
12:12
think oftentimes, people just
12:14
maybe haven't really realized that other people are
12:16
thinking in the same way. One of the
12:17
things that's kind of interesting is
12:19
recently, actually, it went and,
12:22
there's a,
12:23
there was an exhibit. Actually, there's actually this
12:26
whole thing.
12:27
It's actually nationwide. They're taking around this book
12:30
of names of people who
12:32
were incarcerated during World War two in the
12:34
Japanese American,
12:36
camps. Yeah.
12:38
Otherwise known as internment camps. And so,
12:42
they're taking this book of names around and
12:44
actually,
12:45
people who are relatives or other folks that
12:47
wanna remember them, it's like dot the you
12:49
know, put a dot in the name or
12:51
next to the name. And it's like this
12:53
huge book, and they're going to do this
12:54
tour across the country. But the Japanese American
12:56
Citizens League for forever has been like,
13:00
hey. These families were, like, forced from their
13:03
homes and put into a camp that were
13:05
under armed guard and not allowed to leave.
13:09
What the hell does internment even mean? They
13:11
were incarcerated, right, voluntarily.
13:14
And so that's kinda like the term that
13:16
we so we put that like, that's like
13:17
inner style. We say, well I mean, say
13:20
what say what you will or however you
13:21
wanna describe it, but people are, like, locked
13:23
up in that loud leak. Yeah. Yeah. And,
13:25
you know, that that's just, like, fact. Right?
13:27
History.
13:28
And so we're like some people have been
13:30
using internment, but other folks, right, like
13:33
are like, hey. That's not really an accurate
13:35
term,
13:36
and not a really accurate way to kinda
13:38
describe it. Right?
13:40
A better a more accurate way might be
13:42
to say these folks are incarcerated. Now, you
13:45
know,
13:46
you'll still see internment out there. Yeah. Sure.
13:49
Well, I was just thinking, like, one of
13:51
my favorite books is, Just Americans,
13:54
that talks about the,
13:56
Hawaii
13:57
I draw a blank every time. Like, the
14:00
hundred
14:01
eleventh?
14:02
If you should read the the Purple Heart
14:04
Brigade.
14:05
Yes. Yes. I think it's, the
14:08
no. I I think it's like the I
14:10
don't know the, like, the May
14:11
or something or
14:13
April
14:14
or something like that. Yeah. Maybe it is
14:16
for it says the yeah. Because the May,
14:18
that's Band of Brothers, guys.
14:20
Yeah.
14:22
But
14:23
yeah. Anyways, I
14:24
You know, for second, I think it was.
14:26
Okay. Yeah. Clearly, I've done my research here.
14:28
But,
14:29
Daniel,
14:30
Inouye was, you know, he
14:33
lost his arm and
14:35
Yeah. So, anyway,
14:38
they refer to that in the book. And
14:39
now granted that book's, like, 20 years old
14:41
or something, but,
14:43
yeah, they refer to that as the, the
14:45
Japanese internment camps. But, you know?
14:48
I mean, that's the other thing too. Right?
14:49
So, like, language is, like, what you make
14:51
of it. And so, like,
14:53
my personal view, right, is that, like,
14:57
you kinda have to speak the same language
14:59
to understand each other. So there's a thing
15:00
to be said about
15:02
having, like, agency over the language that you
15:04
use. And it's like when you put me
15:06
in a room so I'm doing this other,
15:07
like, leadership program thing Yeah. Recently. I'm gonna
15:10
be in Florida next week for it. But
15:12
in our group and it's, like, mostly journalists
15:14
and journalists, executives, etcetera. In this group, it's
15:17
crazy. There are, like, two other marines.
15:20
So one guy is this guy, Thomas Brennan,
15:22
New Braun's Warhorse. Really great guy on your
15:25
show.
15:26
And then another guy, he's actually from the
15:28
APU, he's in the Royal Marines. But it's
15:29
interesting because you put us in the like,
15:31
put us in a room together,
15:33
and suddenly we're speaking the same language. And
15:35
it it it could cover so much more
15:37
ground because if this is, like, common language
15:39
that we have. Yeah. So something to be
15:41
said there about that language and then being
15:43
able to have access to it. Right? So,
15:45
like,
15:46
I've maybe there's, like, maybe a handful of
15:49
folks that I've worked with over the years
15:51
who've maybe had
15:52
who've had more
15:54
exposure to veterans.
15:56
And so sometimes it's easier to talk to
15:58
them because they speak the lingo. So I
16:01
think there's something about being able to speak
16:02
the lingo. And there are different communities out
16:05
there that use different kinds of lingos, and
16:07
it's better when we know what the conventions
16:09
are for each of them so that we
16:10
can, like,
16:12
move,
16:12
within those communities better. So I I think
16:15
something to be said about that. I think
16:16
there's a lot to be said. I wanna
16:18
touch on,
16:19
the, the this executive
16:23
committee that you guys are running, which I
16:26
think is super fascinating. But,
16:28
I do wanna
16:30
keep on this while we're talking about it
16:32
because
16:33
one of the things that I'm really fascinated
16:35
with right now is information,
16:37
how we get information, and how information is
16:40
disseminated, how we, you know, absorb and ingest
16:43
it.
16:45
And I think the language part is, you
16:48
know, a key piece
16:51
to this, especially we're talking,
16:53
you know, with before we,
16:55
started recording, you know, we were talking about,
16:57
like,
16:58
well, what do we wanna talk about?
17:01
And one of the things was, like, well,
17:03
you know, I'm a this is the d
17:04
you know, a AAJA is a DEI organization,
17:08
and so that's gonna come up. And, like,
17:10
yeah. Let's let's lean into it.
17:13
And,
17:15
you know, in in that vein,
17:19
when you hear,
17:21
something like an, you know, Asian American journalists,
17:24
and you're talking about a DEI organization,
17:28
it isn't this monolithic thing where, hey. All
17:30
we're doing is pushing
17:32
Asian American sort of interest because you as
17:35
you reference more
17:37
you reference being a veteran more than you've
17:39
referenced being Asian.
17:41
And I think that that's where,
17:44
language plays such a huge role because it
17:47
isn't just about
17:50
an agenda.
17:51
It is, like you said, communicating on a
17:54
level that is very similar
17:56
and that has multiple interests.
17:59
It isn't this sort of, like, yeah, like,
18:01
this monolithic thing where we're just trying to
18:03
push some sort of agenda.
18:06
You what you guys are doing
18:08
is you sort of have this, you know,
18:10
Venn diagram
18:11
almost where,
18:13
you know, especially if we're talking Taiwan, we're
18:16
talking about tense relations in The Pacific.
18:18
Having a veteran Asian American
18:21
would probably be really great to help, like,
18:23
sort of help level the playing field on
18:24
the type of language that's being used
18:27
to
18:28
convey information.
18:30
I don't know. I it's kind of a
18:32
Sorry. I think you're absolutely right. And I
18:33
think, you know, one of the things that
18:34
I think
18:35
oftentimes gets misconstrued is that is that,
18:38
you know, when we're we're at Asian American
18:40
Journal Association or even, like, I'm a member
18:41
of the military veterans in journalism network. One
18:44
of the things is, like, we think about
18:45
is,
18:47
don't exclude us don't exclude us from that
18:49
space because of who we are. Right? And,
18:53
there could be an argument made,
18:55
a compelling one at that, that maybe we
18:57
should be considered
18:59
to be part of that conversation
19:01
because we, you know, our folks might bring
19:03
a different perspective. And, you know, when I
19:05
was in the marines, I I got foreign
19:07
language proficiency pay. Like, I speak a hand
19:09
like, as you know, I speak a handful
19:10
of languages. Mhmm. It'd be really dumb, right,
19:13
like, to to have a marine that speaks,
19:15
like, a local language and then not use
19:17
them there. Right. Even consider
19:20
bringing that marine with you on a deployment
19:21
to that particular locale. Because, man, does that
19:24
does that, like that's a force multiplier right
19:25
there. Like, you can get,
19:27
so much out of that. And so,
19:31
yeah. So I I just I think there's
19:32
a value add from,
19:35
you know, from that kind of standpoint of
19:37
what kind of skills folks bring. You know?
19:39
And it's it's,
19:42
Yeah. There was a Simpsons bit. I think
19:44
it was during,
19:46
the, who shot mister Burns series.
19:50
But they had this guy come out of
19:52
the court. You know, all the journalists are
19:54
all like,
19:55
doing all that stuff. And then one guy
19:57
goes, who are you? Why are you here?
19:59
And the other guy, the main,
20:02
Kent Brockman guy goes, do your research. Like,
20:05
shoves him out of the way. And I
20:06
sort of feel like in a lot of
20:08
ways,
20:09
having this sort of inclusion
20:12
I know that's a dirty word.
20:14
But it at least
20:16
considering it as being a force multiplier, like
20:19
you said, sort of gets
20:20
it gets you ahead of that who are
20:22
you and why are you here
20:24
part of any sort of journalism or any
20:26
sort of information gathering, intelligence gathering where
20:30
you don't have to get your IPB.
20:33
You don't have to spend as much time
20:35
in your IPB.
20:36
Yeah. I I I honestly and, you know,
20:38
I was like an intel guy in the
20:39
marines. And so, like That's why I went
20:41
that's why I said
20:42
things that happened when I was there. I
20:43
was like, I was stationed at third rate
20:45
of time in Hawaii,
20:46
and, almost every officer in the unit cycled
20:49
through Korea to do a deployment there, to
20:51
do some kind of exercise. Right? And I
20:53
was the only officer who spoke fluent Korean
20:55
and the only officer that didn't go.
20:58
That wasn't planned that way. Right? I got
21:01
because I did a diploma to Afghanistan. I
21:03
was I did something else in Okinawa and
21:05
it was different places. This is on the
21:07
thirty first muse. So, like, it just so
21:09
happened that I wasn't in the exercise schedule.
21:11
But boy, it's had an oversight. Yeah. Yeah.
21:13
Yeah. Holy crap. Is that an oversight? You
21:16
know? And, The tip is the tip. The
21:17
tip is the tip. Yeah. Exactly. And so,
21:20
like, I think in that way, sometimes it's
21:22
like a smart allocation of your resources.
21:24
Right? Like, I I can't remember exactly how
21:26
you do it in the PP, but you
21:27
look at, like, what is your tasks? What
21:29
resources do you have available? Yeah. Boy, doesn't
21:31
it make sense to have a wide variety
21:33
of resources?
21:34
Right? Yeah. And and I don't know. Like,
21:36
you know, when I deployed Afghanistan, you know,
21:39
we had a guy on our team that
21:40
spoke Farsi, like, full. Like, boom. Like, is
21:43
that a huge it's a huge,
21:45
help? So it's like, I think things like
21:47
considering things like that
21:49
is,
21:50
is incredibly important. And I think not just
21:53
within the military, but even outside. Right? Like,
21:55
there's applications everywhere else, and we see it
21:57
happen quite a bit.
21:59
Well, let let's
22:01
as far as that's concerned then, so,
22:04
assuming that those considerations are taken and then
22:07
sort of, you know, I'm asking you to
22:10
sort of look at this through both your,
22:12
journalist
22:13
journalist lens, but also your intelligence
22:16
bubble lens is that
22:19
in this sort of current era, I guess
22:22
I mean, I guess
22:24
it is officially the information age. Right? Like,
22:26
we're past sort of the digital age kind
22:28
of into the in It's information and disinformation
22:30
age probably more accurately described. Yeah. It it
22:33
that's what I'm getting at. So in this
22:35
era where we are,
22:39
it isn't necessarily
22:41
the the likes and the reposts don't go
22:44
to the person who is conveying the information
22:47
the most accurately. It's usually the person who
22:49
either puts it out first
22:51
or makes it the most salacious.
22:55
And so and then the algorithms, you know,
22:58
obviously just jump all over it.
23:01
What does that mean then as you we're
23:03
talking about sort of,
23:06
the proper
23:07
use of resources and allocation of resources?
23:10
It seems like something like what you guys
23:12
are doing, especially for if you're covering
23:15
things in Asia or in Asian American communities.
23:18
Right? Like, that would just make sense then
23:20
to get ahead of that whole, like, who
23:22
are you and why are you here sort
23:24
of aspect of
23:25
and also maybe even get
23:28
to get, certain perspectives
23:30
in that information
23:32
sharing
23:33
that you wouldn't get from someone who's just
23:35
coming in cold. Right?
23:37
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I I think so
23:39
there's, like, multiple things that are happening here.
23:41
Right? So journalism as an industry is kinda
23:43
dying. So it's kinda weird to leave,
23:46
my life in the military, the promise of
23:48
a twenty year retirement.
23:50
It could be some, like, crazy ass thing,
23:52
like, go join the just to go try
23:54
to become a journalist, which itself was, like,
23:57
a difficult thing. And then being here, people
24:00
are like, welcome to the party. This party
24:02
is slowly dying. And
24:05
fast. And so it's like It's a dead
24:07
man's party. I don't know if I get
24:08
sued for yeah. Yeah. Right. And so, like
24:11
so then I'm like, okay. So we we're
24:13
we're in a dying industry.
24:15
And,
24:17
a lot of that's, like, kind of clinging
24:18
on to, like, older business models, not figuring
24:21
out how to, like, monetize,
24:22
like, the information that they're putting out there.
24:25
I think social media came on board and
24:27
ended up taking all the ad revenue. So,
24:28
like, we all know that kind of story.
24:31
But what I think is really interesting in
24:33
the time that we live in right now
24:35
is that,
24:36
you may have journalism and you have news,
24:38
and people have this, like, fixed idea of
24:40
what they think it should be and then
24:42
what they think it was.
24:44
And that model is kind of dying. So
24:45
we've seen, like, a divestiture like, divestment
24:48
that's across the country from, like, local news
24:51
sources Yeah. And leaning more towards this, like,
24:57
well, it's just going it's it's being replaced
24:59
by sort of national discussions.
25:01
And so, like, a lot of things are
25:02
now, like, beginning of who's Nuance, and it's
25:05
mostly, like, national sort of rage bait kind
25:07
of stuff.
25:09
And I think
25:11
it leads to, like, conversations that aren't very
25:14
fruitful.
25:15
And I I think it becomes concerning because
25:17
in The United States, I feel like,
25:21
we have
25:22
like, as individual citizens, like, not only is
25:24
all this, like, stuff all these, like, the
25:26
sources of basically reliable information sort of fading
25:30
or being sort of,
25:33
crowded out by other sources that are not
25:36
very reliable. Right? Just because it's the the
25:39
information space is being crowded. Not only is
25:40
that happening, it's also happening simultaneously with sort
25:43
of the rise in,
25:45
these social media networks and,
25:48
applications. Like, I can't do anything without signing
25:50
up for username and password. Right. Right. Right.
25:52
I have, like like, probably 80 different accounts
25:55
to 80 different things everywhere. And all those
25:58
people are collecting data on me, and I
25:59
have no idea what kind of data they're
26:01
collecting about me. Right? And then they're they're
26:03
using that stuff to feed me algorithms so
26:05
that whenever I go to, like, Instagram or
26:07
TikTok, it's basically this, like, supercharged,
26:10
really, like, great,
26:14
like, infomercial service. Or, like like, I'll be
26:17
watching some, like, running influencer because I'm really
26:19
into running. And next thing you know, I'm
26:21
being sold on some, like, running gels. I'm
26:23
like, what the hell?
26:25
And so it's like you're getting packaged into
26:28
this this other thing because people are throwing
26:30
up the monetization. And I I fear that
26:33
we're, like, heading to this territory where we're
26:36
basically living,
26:38
like, infomercials. Right? Like, that's Yeah. How we
26:40
get. It's, like, infomercial.
26:42
Well, you know, we when,
26:44
we were talking,
26:45
when I first called you about coming on
26:48
for this,
26:49
segment,
26:51
the reason I called was because
26:53
we I was sort of doing a,
26:57
sort of a canvassing on, like,
26:59
how
27:00
how are these damn glue stiffing kids
27:03
consuming info?
27:04
Like and what's what's the behavior?
27:07
And then we got to talking of, like,
27:09
stop. Let's do this on the podcast.
27:11
But, like so what are some of your
27:12
thoughts? Because
27:14
it seems to me, like,
27:16
if you're not,
27:18
like,
27:19
shooting on the black within about thirty seconds,
27:22
you've lost them. And then if you keep
27:24
going
27:25
more than maybe two and a half, three,
27:27
they're checking out.
27:29
Is that and I I didn't mean they
27:31
as in, like, all those young youngsters.
27:35
They meaning people who consume media. Right?
27:38
Yeah. Yeah. People who consume media. I I
27:41
think
27:42
well, I think one. Right? So, like,
27:44
people say journalism dying, but I actually think
27:46
it's just kinda being reinvented
27:48
to contradict my earlier self. I'm really good
27:50
at contradicting myself. All about, man. It's like
27:53
having arguments with ourselves. It's the foundation of
27:55
this podcast.
27:57
So I I I think it's being reinvented.
28:00
I think there's a democratization
28:01
that's happening alongside another trend, which is, like,
28:04
figuring out how are we gonna make sure
28:06
that the information that we're provide like, it's
28:07
just like a lot of people have a
28:08
high like, everybody has a hot take nowadays
28:11
on stuff. And so I think
28:13
it's being reinvented,
28:14
and I think in ways that
28:16
folks that, like, quote, unquote, traditional journalists are
28:19
uncomfortable with. And so I think we're seeing
28:21
the rise of, like, social media influencers as
28:23
being purveyors of information
28:25
that we're trying to find reliable. And if
28:28
you do enough digging, you'll find plenty of
28:29
traditional journalists and, like, journalistic work from, like,
28:32
twenty, thirty, fifty years ago that's, like, shitty.
28:35
Like, sort of, like, we could always find
28:37
that. Shittiness is what existed for as long
28:40
as this is a medium as existed. Right?
28:41
Yeah. Yeah. So,
28:43
you can lobby the you can, like, lob
28:45
the same kind of criticisms at
28:48
current, like, social media influencers. Right?
28:50
But the reality is that folks, a lot
28:52
of folks are finding,
28:54
their information in that way. And so it's
28:56
like the question then becomes, we have a
28:57
wider definition
28:59
of what fits
29:00
the news.
29:01
Mhmm. If the news is defined as, like,
29:03
a service that's gonna help you stay informed
29:06
on a topic or not.
29:07
And I maybe you're saying informed or misinformed.
29:10
Maybe maybe that's maybe that's, like, the line
29:13
of I think maybe informed, maybe it's not
29:15
news.
29:17
And yeah. So I I think there's that
29:19
that's happening. So I think there's, like, a
29:21
really lot of, like, exciting stuff that's happening
29:23
in that way because we're also seeing people
29:25
consume news in different ways that they haven't
29:27
in the past. You know? Not not that
29:29
radio hasn't existed for a long time, but
29:31
podcasts are exploding.
29:32
You know? You have, different multimedia formats that
29:35
are out there.
29:36
I'm trying to think. There's, like, one website
29:38
that does, like, a multimedia,
29:40
like, immersive it's like it's, like, crazy. They
29:43
they do, like, a four d? Like, it
29:45
squirts water in your face and stuff? Or
29:47
No. No. It's like you go to the
29:48
website and, like, you'll have, like, an audio
29:50
clip will play and then a video clip.
29:51
And then you'll, like, read the article, and
29:53
then it'll, like, shoot you some infographics.
29:56
I'm, like, blanking on the name of it
29:57
now, but it'll come up again. You know?
29:59
Yeah. Yeah.
30:01
But it's it's kinda neat. You're seeing people
30:03
kinda tell stories in different ways.
30:05
I mean, we're also seeing, like, a lot
30:06
of, like, media companies. Right?
30:08
Places like, New York Times, Washington Post, like,
30:12
really getting into Instagram stories.
30:14
Yeah. Yeah. I guess that's what I was
30:15
getting at, like, the shorts. Like, I think
30:17
even
30:19
what is it? Like, CNN, I think, has,
30:21
like, a shorts thing. It can, like, if
30:23
you scroll down far enough, you'll see there.
30:25
Have there and then AP AP has a
30:27
shorts. They do forty five second
30:29
things.
30:31
But so what you you mentioned something earlier
30:34
about sort of the stuffiness or, like,
30:37
traditional
30:38
journalist
30:39
people are in the traditional journalist journalism
30:42
camp sort of thumbing their nose at the
30:45
current trend.
30:48
But one of the reasons I feel like
30:50
the trend is become as pervasive as it
30:52
is is because
30:54
there's such a mistrust in institutions
30:57
and especially in gatekeeping.
31:00
And then so it almost seems like, well,
31:01
if I've got a criticism about where things
31:04
are going, I must be one of the
31:06
gatekeepers.
31:09
What what do you have to say about
31:10
that? Because you were on, you know, you
31:13
like, you talked about, you went from, you
31:14
know, Street Sense. Now you're kind of a
31:16
gatekeeper. Like, you're putting out style guides. And
31:19
so what are your thoughts on the gatekeeping?
31:22
I
31:23
I I will caveat with my own opinion
31:26
or my own perspective is that I whereas
31:29
in some ways, I share that mistrust of
31:31
gatekeeping because it does like you said, it's
31:34
the democratization of information, I think, is a
31:36
good thing.
31:37
But at the same time, when the primary
31:39
source
31:40
is more concerned about getting likes
31:42
than about accuracy and transparency, there's a problem.
31:45
Right? Like, so
31:47
was there a vacuum and it got filled,
31:49
like, almost, like, with, you know, terrorism and
31:52
extremism? Like, there's a vacuum and then the
31:54
biggest shit had filled it in? Or, like,
31:56
anyways, I I'm rambling, but what are your
31:58
thoughts on that? And I and I don't
32:00
know if likes necessarily translate to dollars in
32:03
your pocket. And I think when you look
32:05
use, like,
32:06
different social media sites,
32:08
that money goes to the social like, the
32:10
ads go to the social media site. Like,
32:12
that money doesn't go into the pocket of,
32:14
like That's true. Yeah. And so that's, like,
32:16
a problem in itself. Right? Like, I am,
32:17
like, producing this content,
32:19
and somebody else is posting the article on
32:22
their site, and they just screenshotted parts of
32:24
the article that I pay walled. And now
32:26
there's a whole discussion about the article I
32:28
wrote that nobody actually read, but only saw
32:30
the headline of. And now Facebook is profiting
32:32
off of that. Right?
32:34
And then and then and then it's being
32:36
shared by this influencer
32:38
who's using it for their brand. Right? Yeah.
32:40
Using that to sell products in our so
32:42
that that's, like, part of the problem that
32:44
we haven't figured out. How are we gonna
32:45
manage the regulation
32:47
if there's if there needs to be regulation,
32:49
like, around this kind of thing? So I
32:52
think I think that's part of the issue
32:53
here.
32:54
You know, I will say that, you know,
32:56
I used when I was an intel guy,
32:58
you know, one of the hardest conversations you
33:00
had with folks is, hey. Look out. You
33:03
know, we're probably gonna get attacked in this
33:05
area in the next twenty four hours. You
33:06
know, we need to be on board or
33:07
whatever. And they're like, how do you know
33:09
that? And you gotta be like,
33:11
you know, don't worry about it.
33:15
Probably. Right? Like, that's a hard conversation. And
33:18
journalism,
33:19
that doesn't really happen. You know, people gotta
33:20
tell you, you know, you gotta be you
33:22
gotta be very clear, very transparent about how
33:24
you do stuff. Now there are cases where
33:26
people do, like, anonymous sources and as as
33:29
as audiences should be, should always be skeptical
33:33
skeptical around stuff like that. I know that
33:34
a lot of the stuff not like, a
33:36
lot of the reporting that they're doing now
33:38
around, like, military and what's happening now.
33:40
I know a lot of journalists are, you
33:42
know, granting anonymity and stuff so that people
33:44
can be because there's, like because, I mean,
33:46
there's, like, a strong case for being with
33:48
dude. And, like,
33:49
take anonymous sources because in a situation like
33:52
I think the current climate like, I don't
33:54
know what it's like to work at the
33:55
Pentagon right now for,
33:57
a guy like Hegseth, but I can't imagine
34:00
it's, like, the most conducive to,
34:02
you know I don't I can't imagine that
34:04
they're very tolerant of people being critical
34:06
or talking to the press. So I imagine,
34:08
like, having anonymity.
34:09
But then
34:11
not to go down that rabbit hole whether
34:12
or not you're gonna get polygraph.
34:14
I don't know how that's gonna work.
34:16
But I I,
34:19
I I will say that,
34:21
Yeah. I used to think when you go
34:22
went to the Pentagon, you had to be
34:23
lobotomized, but I don't know. Maybe they incorporate
34:27
this.
34:28
I don't I I mean, I I honestly
34:29
would I would pay to just spend a
34:31
day there to see,
34:33
what that life is like because I I
34:35
I can't imagine.
34:36
It feels like it's there's a lot of
34:38
things happening there. And Well, they've got a
34:40
DMV, dude. So if you wanna jump the
34:42
lines, man, you can just hit the DMV
34:44
at the Pentagon and do some canvassing while
34:46
you're there.
34:47
Yeah. Right.
34:51
But, yeah, I think I think the, you
34:52
know, the news is being redefined.
34:55
I think there are more people that are
34:56
allowed to do it, which I think is
34:57
great.
34:58
I you know, and I I have this,
34:59
like, my own theory. Right? So I think,
35:01
eventually, we're gonna get so
35:04
I have his own theory and it's kind
35:05
of like a, you know, a BS theory
35:07
in some ways, but,
35:09
literally a BS theory in that. I think
35:10
we're gonna become so inundated
35:12
at a certain point with BS
35:14
that the natural reliable sources of information will
35:16
come to light.
35:18
That people that have built their reputations around
35:20
being dependable and, like, giving factual stuff, but
35:23
that reputation is gonna carry farther. That's a
35:25
I think those are the things that will
35:26
survive in the long term. Oh, interesting. You're
35:28
wrong. But I I just think that after
35:30
a while, like, you know, you you keep
35:32
getting fed bullshit for something. If you're a
35:34
strong critical thinker,
35:36
you know, that bullshit won't stand for very
35:38
long. Right? Like, you just question it. And
35:41
then and then you'll move on. You'll find
35:42
something new. That's my theory.
35:45
I don't know
35:46
whether that will pan out that way. Yeah.
35:49
And it doesn't seem to have
35:50
panned out that way.
35:52
And it does feel like we are in
35:54
a time where there is plenty of bullshit
35:56
that's out there. I don't know from a
35:57
lot of these that were on this podcast,
35:58
but I think I've cussed at least a
36:00
dozen times up to this point, so you're
36:02
fine.
36:03
But, yeah, shame on you, potty mouth.
36:07
But here's the,
36:09
interesting that as you mentioned that, and I
36:11
think that's a very optimistic point of view,
36:13
and I'm hopeful that you're right.
36:16
But I
36:17
just out of pure coincidence,
36:21
as far as the curriculum
36:22
with our boys,
36:25
in their reading,
36:27
we fell upon, Animal Farm.
36:29
So we're, like, you know and, yeah, obviously,
36:32
as for those who have read it,
36:34
if you haven't, check it out, man. It's
36:36
only, like, a 40 pages. It's amazing. It
36:38
was written in 1956,
36:40
so it gives you an indication of, like,
36:42
what's old is new. But, yeah, the big
36:44
thing with the pigs is, like, the disinformation.
36:47
Right? Because
36:48
none of the other animals can read,
36:51
and if you just say something
36:53
regardless of its truthiness,
36:56
if you just say something enough times, people
36:58
just they just start believing it. You know?
37:00
Like, oh, that's not Snowball was a total
37:02
douche in the battle. If you guys don't
37:04
remember, like, well, I thought he was actually
37:05
one of the heroes. Like, no. That was
37:07
wrong. And, like, yeah, I guess you're right.
37:09
He was kind of a scumbag.
37:11
And then that's how it works. Right? And,
37:14
also, two made the mistake of looking at,
37:16
I think it was a little twilight zone,
37:18
to serve Matt. You know? That's like the
37:20
one guy's like, it's a cockpaw.
37:23
So, hopefully, that's what you're saying is correct
37:26
is is that between those two
37:29
analogies that eventually the guy who says this
37:31
is a cookbook and then people are looking
37:33
around going, holy shit. They're eating people.
37:36
Then they'll just start turning to that person
37:38
and be like,
37:39
hey. Can you tell us more about this
37:42
theory you have about it being a cookbook?
37:43
Because it really looks like they're eating people.
37:46
You know, it's interesting too. Like, one of
37:48
the things that kinda gives me hope is
37:49
I was actually at a,
37:51
it's the night media forum, which is kind
37:53
of a just like a gathering of senior
37:56
news executives. Just a few not a while
37:58
back, and,
37:59
former,
38:01
surgeon general Vivek Murthy, he he was our
38:04
keynote speaker, and he talked about this trend
38:07
amongst just youth, like college age kids and
38:10
Yeah. High schoolers.
38:11
There's actually this, like, new trend that's I'm
38:13
trying to remember what the name of it
38:15
is called, but or or these folks are
38:17
kinda just giving up on social media.
38:20
They're giving up on social media. They're giving
38:21
up Because he was the surgeon general that
38:23
warned, right, against
38:25
social media for children. Right? Yeah. Yeah. He
38:28
he does. And he he recommends, like, you
38:30
know, limitations around it and and all that.
38:32
And, yeah, I I gotta say I agree.
38:34
And,
38:36
and so this is, like, a group of
38:38
young folks,
38:39
you know, have been self organizing
38:41
around this movement to basically give up smartphones,
38:44
take up flip phones, and then instead of,
38:47
you know, like, engaging in all of the
38:49
social media crap to, like, be reading and,
38:52
like, and engaging deeper around stuff because they
38:54
started to notice that the quality of conversations
38:58
is just kind of tanking.
38:59
Yeah. I think, one of the things that
39:01
he brought up that I thought was really
39:03
powerful was that,
39:05
the biggest fear so there are two couple
39:07
of things that he brought up that I
39:08
thought were really interesting. One of them was
39:10
that,
39:11
if you ask, you know, high school age,
39:13
college age,
39:15
kids, you know, what their biggest fear is,
39:18
Their biggest fears, like, when it comes to
39:20
the,
39:21
school and stuff, is being canceled by their
39:24
peers for saying something that they feel is
39:26
socially unacceptable.
39:27
So, like, can you imagine having that? Like,
39:29
I remember being in class and just saying
39:31
outrageous stuff
39:32
and then being challenged
39:34
via Socratic method and then coming in to
39:37
learn how to, like, reason and logic.
39:40
I I think a lot of,
39:42
young folks these days are kind of being
39:44
robbed of that opportunity.
39:46
And And then the second thing he brought
39:47
up that I thought was really fascinating
39:50
was,
39:51
he said, you know, he he asked folks
39:53
to kinda guess what we think the demographic
39:56
is that says the most loneliest. You know,
39:58
what age group do we think? So my
40:00
mind automatically goes to, like, really old folks.
40:03
No. It's apparently, like, high school. Yeah. The,
40:07
I can't believe I'm drawing a blank, but
40:09
he wrote the book, Anxious Generation.
40:12
And it's yeah. Dude, the the statistics on
40:15
young people right now,
40:17
the mental health stuff is crazy. Acting on
40:19
social media, it's not real life connection. Yeah.
40:22
You know?
40:23
And, you know, I've, like over the years,
40:25
like, as, like, an adult, right, like, I've
40:27
even when I was in the marines, like,
40:28
I I you know, like, you develop
40:31
over time. You're influenced by others, and you
40:33
think about things more critically and stuff. And
40:36
I worry that
40:38
that kind of level of engagement
40:40
is lost
40:42
in the other shorter mediums
40:44
that we share. Now I think,
40:48
there's a demand for that.
40:50
I think the demand comes from people. Right?
40:52
And so, like, I think,
40:54
we will get to that place. I mean,
40:55
I I'm, like, not against, like, you know,
40:58
a funny cat video on TikTok or something.
41:00
You know?
41:01
But but I I do think there is
41:03
something valuable
41:04
about that, and I do think that I
41:06
mean, I don't know. I hope my BS
41:07
theory pans out eventually. Like
41:10
Yeah. Yeah. Not not just someone that's like,
41:13
that's a peanut. That's porn. Yeah.
41:17
No. I hope that's right. I I think
41:19
I think there is something to it. I
41:21
know within religious circle, especially,
41:24
you know, evangelical Christian circles,
41:26
there is this sense of like,
41:30
you know, connection and community as being a
41:32
real,
41:35
you know, a very real
41:38
fundamental aspect of life. Like, you just can't
41:41
and then,
41:42
too, I think in a lot of ways,
41:44
we're still as much as we wanna just
41:46
sort of forget about it, we I think
41:47
we really are still in
41:49
sort of the,
41:52
the recovery phase from,
41:54
the pandemic, man. I think that just really
41:57
it really fucked us in so many ways.
41:59
Interestingly,
42:00
we had a guest on the show not
42:02
too long ago, Matt Kaltrider.
42:03
A wonderful, wonderful book, Double Knot, his memoir.
42:08
Dude, so good if you wanna check that
42:10
out.
42:11
But, he's he's getting back in writing mode.
42:15
That's a quick one. It's actually, five essays
42:17
that he wrote. He was in Afghanistan
42:20
about the same time as you and I,
42:22
I think, if I remember correctly. Anyhow, he's,
42:25
amazing. He's in the area. But,
42:29
one of the things he says as he's
42:30
getting back into writing mode is when he
42:32
gets home,
42:33
he puts his phone down and grabs a
42:34
book. And then every time he feels the
42:36
need to scroll, he'll just read even if
42:38
it's just like a paragraph or a page.
42:41
And so it takes about the same amount
42:42
of time. And then, you know, little by
42:44
little, he finishes the book.
42:46
Yeah.
42:47
I mean, it was something similar. I,
42:49
I come home and I, like, reach like,
42:52
it's weird. I think I have to make
42:53
the habit change. I'll reach for, like, my
42:55
TikTok. Like, I wanna see cats, you know,
42:57
and I wanna see Yeah. Just, like, stupid
42:59
stupid shit. I wanna sound like, you know,
43:01
like, I'm into the America's funniest home videos
43:03
kinda.
43:04
Yeah. Yeah. I wanna see people falling over
43:06
and
43:07
and then, and then I'm like, you know,
43:09
I'll grab my, I'm using this Kindle alternative
43:12
called Kobo. I like it because you can
43:13
write on it. Okay. Cool. It's I think
43:15
it's less expensive. But, anyways, I I, I'll
43:18
pick that up, my ereader, and
43:21
I'll start reading. And, man, I,
43:23
yeah, it's way better. I read this I
43:25
don't totally random.
43:27
This highly recommend this book I just read
43:29
finished called Frankenstein in Baghdad.
43:32
Ah, love the title. Yeah. It's like, basically,
43:37
basically, suicide bombs and v bids are going
43:40
off, like, every day. And then one day,
43:42
this v bid goes off.
43:44
Body parts everywhere.
43:46
Some random dude comes out. You know, he's,
43:48
like, drinking at the local tea shop or
43:50
whatever, and he feels bad. So he's like,
43:52
you know, these are not humans because they're
43:54
just random body parts. So he takes them
43:56
home, and he's like, I'm gonna sew them
43:58
into one body, and then we can bury
43:59
the body. That way, like, it recognized. At
44:01
least it looks human.
44:03
So he sews it together, and, eventually, it
44:05
disappears on him.
44:07
And the the thing that disappears on him
44:08
is a Frankenstein.
44:10
It's, like, really incredible. Highly recommend.
44:12
And it's fiction, I take it. Right? Fiction.
44:14
Yes. You know, this didn't happen in real
44:16
life. So he sort of accidentally creates a
44:18
Frankenstein monster?
44:20
Yeah. And it's it's a really great translator
44:22
out there, Jonathan Wright.
44:25
He translates from Arabic into English. I don't
44:28
know the guy. But I appreciate his work
44:30
because I feel like the translations,
44:32
really do the original work justice even though
44:34
I can't read Arabic. Yeah.
44:36
You you can feel that it comes from
44:38
a different language, but it's kind of refreshing
44:40
to see
44:41
a different take on
44:44
war
44:45
from, like, a different, you know, lens. Right?
44:48
Like, I think oftentimes
44:50
anything that I read about war or military
44:52
is usually written from
44:53
the perspective
44:55
of, like, the American
44:56
or the American perspective of, like, us doing
44:58
it.
45:00
And this is kinda interesting because it's, like,
45:03
perspective of, like, the local,
45:05
host nation folks experiencing it.
45:08
And so, like, American troops
45:11
are, like, kind of interspersed throughout. They're not
45:14
the main part of the narrative, and it's
45:15
kind of interesting to see where they are
45:16
in the background. And then on the other
45:18
hand too, like, you kinda get what they're
45:19
talking about. Right? It's kinda funny. Yeah. It's
45:21
just interesting. Like, it's like
45:23
a VVV going off is, like, how it's,
45:25
like, raining, you know, like, on a day.
45:27
So it's, like, it's not even like a
45:29
it's, like, dealt with in such a subtle,
45:31
like, background thing. Like, oh, yeah. It's just,
45:33
like, noise in the background, like, birds chirping,
45:35
the bit goes off.
45:37
You know? And it's kind of kind of
45:38
fast.
45:40
Yeah. Like, oh, I get get a little,
45:42
little little, raining today.
45:45
That's really fascinating. I guess that comes full
45:47
circle,
45:48
as we're talking about sort of
45:50
representation,
45:52
and perspective
45:54
because
45:55
in
45:56
a similar way,
45:58
you know, like, someone who,
46:00
is you know, if if,
46:02
information
46:03
outlet, we'll call it, is trying to
46:06
cover a story about,
46:10
you know, a refugee crisis in, like, I
46:12
don't know, South America,
46:14
it'd be really great to find
46:17
a journalist
46:18
who is from
46:20
South America whose
46:22
family might have been refugees. Right? Like and
46:24
so
46:25
you can really sort of get,
46:27
like you said,
46:28
that level of perspective
46:30
that isn't just sort of from the outside
46:33
looking in that's conveying facts, but is actually
46:36
able to provide a very real,
46:38
almost visceral sort of context.
46:41
Yeah. And and it makes sense too. Like,
46:43
there's, like, a lot of different angles. Right?
46:44
Like, it also like, when I meet another
46:47
marine, there doesn't need to be, like, all
46:48
this extra, you know,
46:50
talk about just, like you know, like, there's,
46:52
like, always this frivolous bullshit you have to
46:54
go to when you're talking to somebody about
46:55
your experience. I got a ton of my
46:57
military experience, but I'm talking to a nonmilitary
46:59
person who's been isolated from the veterans community.
47:01
There's no anything about us. Like, there's a
47:03
lot of, like, hand holding
47:05
and, like, hesitance and, like, I gotta, like,
47:08
you know, like, to do all this, like,
47:09
pretense and explanation
47:12
around stuff. I remember once, like, talking to
47:13
somebody about something they're like,
47:16
they're like, what's a flap jacket? Like, at
47:19
the end of the story, like, what's a
47:20
flap? I'm like, wait. You don't know what
47:21
a flap jacket is? Like,
47:23
we
47:24
gotta go all the way back to this,
47:25
you know, and then they're like, you know,
47:27
I've heard talking to somebody else once and
47:28
and then and talking about whatever units I
47:31
was in or whatever, and they're like, oh,
47:32
that's so cool.
47:34
What's a unit?
47:36
Yeah. I'm like, shit. You know, and you
47:38
forget that there's, like, this gulf of Yeah.
47:40
Like, because there's a common language
47:42
on veterans. And so, like, this exists
47:46
all over the place. Right? Like, because there's,
47:47
like, lots of different kinds of communities and
47:50
stuff. You know, it's like
47:51
a a person who's, like, a hockey player
47:53
going to explain hockey to somebody that's Yeah.
47:56
Like, oh, for checking. Like, I don't you
47:57
don't have to explain what a for check
47:59
is. Yeah. It's like, why we wanna like,
48:00
when if you hire a sports reporter, you
48:02
probably want somebody that's, like, done sports before.
48:04
Like, it kinda makes sense. So I think
48:06
that you just said done sports. You may.
48:08
You know? Say again? As I love that
48:10
you just said done sports.
48:12
Yeah. Alright. Right.
48:17
Well, dude, I know you're I'm really cutting
48:19
into your afternoon, man. I really appreciate,
48:22
you spending the time to talk. I mean,
48:24
we could we'll probably literally be here for
48:27
hours, which we need to get a beer
48:28
and then just do this maybe
48:30
off
48:31
mic or whatever. I'll I'll sneak a microphone
48:33
in or something.
48:35
But I didn't wanna
48:37
miss the opportunity to talk to you about
48:39
your guys' executive leadership program,
48:43
because I think that's really fascinating.
48:45
It seems like it's a an avenue or
48:48
a, a resource,
48:51
that most
48:53
of these of, you know, sort of niche,
48:57
organizations
48:58
offer. Could you talk a little bit about
49:00
that and, like, what it what it all
49:01
means and what it does?
49:03
Yeah. So, we have an executive leadership program.
49:06
It's it's almost it takes almost place over
49:08
here for one year. So we have, like,
49:09
four like, a four day in person,
49:13
sort
49:15
of, four day in person I was gonna
49:17
use the term boot camp, but that is
49:19
a wrong word to use for this crowd.
49:21
A four
49:22
day business orientation session, right, where you kinda
49:24
get to know each other. And the program
49:26
is mostly built for journalism and media executives,
49:30
folks that are mid to senior career that
49:32
are trying to kinda get a leg up
49:34
on their gamble.
49:35
And there's all sorts of stuff that we
49:37
go over during that one week,
49:39
including, like, how do you negotiate a better
49:42
salary,
49:43
better conditions for your job,
49:45
you know, talk about, like, some management issues
49:48
that you have, learn more about your personality,
49:49
who you are as a person. There's, like,
49:51
this cultural element too because many of us,
49:53
because we're the Asian American Journal Association,
49:56
tend to be, you know, Asian American business
49:57
of color and go pursue the program.
49:59
It's not the only folks that participate, but
50:01
there is an element,
50:02
to the programming where what we found was
50:05
that, you know, in this program, for instance,
50:07
for me,
50:09
it was, like, the only place in my
50:10
professional career where I've been around other multiracial
50:13
Asian people.
50:14
But and it was kind of refreshing to
50:16
hear that other people had similar stories to
50:19
share about just, like, their professional experiences and,
50:21
like, how they've come up.
50:23
And so that that was, like, interesting. So
50:25
that's, like, a great sort of part of
50:27
the program. And then, folks will then meet
50:30
virtually. They meet virtually. They do coaching sessions.
50:33
They meet with, like, different mentors that we
50:35
pair them up with. We have different kinds
50:36
of case studies and activities. So if you
50:38
think of, like, TDGs
50:40
Yeah. That we do in the marines, we
50:42
have, like, TDGs
50:43
but for
50:44
journalism and media exec people.
50:47
And then and then and then everybody kind
50:49
of does their final,
50:52
the final sessions.
50:54
We do, like, broad leadership kind of training,
50:57
at our annual convention. And this next year,
50:59
it's gonna be or this year, it's gonna
51:01
be in Seattle.
51:02
But it's it's a really great program. You
51:03
know, it's,
51:06
journalism executives,
51:07
folks working in the media across, like, the
51:10
kind of communications
51:11
field.
51:13
And what I found that was really great
51:15
about the program is
51:17
the,
51:17
the cohort. Because you you build you you
51:20
you yeah. Basically,
51:21
we help cater
51:23
and make a brain trust.
51:25
And so, like, I did the program in
51:27
2023,
51:28
which isn't very long ago.
51:31
And I still have an open, like, text
51:33
chain going with the folks I was within
51:35
the program with. And before I even moved
51:37
to this job,
51:38
activated the text chain and was like, okay.
51:40
I wanna go into negotiating my salary.
51:42
Let's
51:43
help me out, guys. Yeah. Yeah. So I
51:45
think wherever you can develop a network is
51:47
and of of supporters is great.
51:50
But, yeah, that's that's a little bit about
51:51
the program that we have here.
51:53
Dude, that's really cool. Yeah. That that's really
51:56
interesting. I think about,
51:58
you know, one of the things is we
52:00
were speaking of cohorts and and leaving we're
52:03
leaving AU.
52:05
It was just like,
52:07
you know,
52:08
the the faculty did. I thought, you know,
52:10
as much as they could do in a
52:11
in a really,
52:13
a very caring and
52:15
and thoughtful and engaging way. But in a
52:18
lot of ways, when we left AU, I
52:19
was like, alright. What do I do now?
52:21
And that was it. Yeah. There was no,
52:22
like, laugh. Alright,
52:24
dude. Good luck.
52:26
Yeah. It's it's it's tough, I think. You
52:28
know? And I I don't know. It's funny
52:30
too because, like, I think there are, like,
52:31
some other vets that I know,
52:34
that I, like, you know, wasn't arranged with,
52:35
served with. And,
52:38
like, the other day, I, like, texted a
52:39
buddy, Mike. So I was going through I'm
52:41
I'm writing and I'm still working my novel.
52:44
Me too. I actually hit you up later
52:45
on for helping me edit this thing because
52:47
I'm all I'm almost done now.
52:51
And,
52:52
I hit him up because I found I've
52:54
the guy had, like, you know, I kept
52:55
all these notes, like, my old notebooks.
52:57
Just and I had, like, a quote book.
52:59
And in my quote book, I found him
53:01
I I quoted him saying, like, oh, I'll
53:02
see you in a fork night. And I
53:04
was like, a fork night? What do you
53:05
mean? He's like, four nights. You know, like,
53:07
four problems with a fork. And, like, that's
53:09
that's not a phrase.
53:11
But that made the quote book, you know,
53:12
and there are a lot of other things,
53:13
but I probably can't share, here in this
53:15
forum. They were in the quote book. And
53:17
so I texted him. They're like, oh, shit.
53:19
Been, like, six years since I class texted
53:20
you, man.
53:23
Dude, that's great. I love that's amazing.
53:27
I see how the fuck
53:31
I eat. Alright, brother, man. On that note,
53:32
dude, let's just that that's a great that's
53:34
a microphone drop right there.
53:36
But, dude, thank you so much for coming
53:38
on,
53:40
and
53:41
for sharing your experiences.
53:43
Best of luck, obviously, to everything that you
53:46
got going on. And, man, I'm really hoping
53:48
I can't wait to see,
53:51
the the survivor of the bullshit wars
53:54
lead us to a better place.
53:57
Who knows? Or maybe we'll just be getting,
53:59
like we're just all gonna get our information
54:01
from, like, robots or something. I don't know.
54:03
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It will just be, like,
54:05
on a like, an assembly line where we're
54:07
just going, that's corn. That's a peanut. That's
54:10
that's diarrhea.
54:12
Have you been watching severance?
54:14
Dude,
54:15
love. K. We got to watch Severance later
54:17
on. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. It's amazing. So
54:19
good. I was actually thinking about it, Tim.
54:21
Like, oh, is it Thursday night? Thursday night.
54:23
Yeah. Sometimes I get it early. Alright, dude.
54:26
Well, dude, have a great afternoon,
54:28
and, yeah, let's get that beer.
54:30
Okay. Sounds good. Alright. Bye. Yeah. Bye.
54:33
Scuttlebutt is a production of the Marine Corps
54:35
Association.
54:36
You have heard the voices or contributions from
54:39
major Vic Ruble, USMC retired,
54:42
Nancy Lichtman, William Trudeng, and our guest.
54:45
Ty Frasier is the editor, sound engineer, and
54:48
technical producer.
54:49
The Marine Corps Association is not an agency
54:51
of the US government.
54:53
The opinions expressed in this episode are the
54:55
personal views of the participants and do not
54:57
reflect the official position of the United States
55:00
Marine Corps, the Department of Defense, or the
55:02
Marine Corps Association.