Latest / How To Protect The Ocean / The Ocean Career Path Nobody Talks About

Transcript

The Ocean Career Path Nobody Talks About · How To Protect The Ocean

0:00
Well, hello out there and
0:01
how to protect the ocean land.
0:03
You're probably wondering
0:04
why I am here and who I am.
0:07
Well, I'm Dave Ebert and I'm typically
0:08
Andrew Lewin's co-host
0:10
for the Beyond Jaws podcast.
0:11
But today there's been a friendly
0:12
takeover that I've
0:14
commandeered the show today to have
0:16
on a special guest, someone who's never
0:19
been a guest in the show
0:20
before and that is Andrew
0:21
Lewin.
0:22
And Andrew is here to talk
0:24
about a job he just obtained.
0:26
He's going to be starting out here in the
0:27
next week or two and kind of a follow the
0:30
theme that we talk about in our on the
0:32
Beyond Jaws podcast and a
0:33
theme that Andrew's been
0:34
talking about on Beyond on how to protect
0:36
the ocean this week
0:37
is is your career path.
0:39
How do you go about finding jobs and find
0:41
that job you really
0:42
are passionate about and
0:43
about and how you love that job.
0:45
And so today I'm going to be the host and
0:47
we're going to be
0:48
talking to Andrew and he
0:49
may or may not regret at the end of the
0:51
show whether I take over.
0:53
With that, let me introduce you my
0:55
special guest, Andrew Lewin.
0:57
Hello everybody.
0:59
Thanks, Dave.
1:00
Lovely to be here.
1:01
So happy to be on this
1:02
wonderful podcast that's been built.
1:04
Yeah, we only have the biggest names in
1:06
this podcast, as you know.
1:10
So so so tell us like
1:12
how so you got this.
1:13
You have it.
1:14
You got a new job now we're going to talk
1:15
about before we talk about this job.
1:18
Why don't you share with everyone?
1:20
Like, how did you get it?
1:21
You've been doing this sort of YouTube
1:23
podcast stuff for 16 years now.
1:26
16 years.
1:27
Yeah.
1:27
And so you were really kind of early on
1:29
in the infancy of this whole genre.
1:33
And why don't you share with everybody?
1:34
How did you back going back to 2010?
1:36
How did you see the writing on the wall
1:39
for this whole area?
1:41
Well, I'll be honest.
1:41
I didn't see the writing on
1:42
the wall right off the bat.
1:44
You know, it I was more of a victim of
1:47
circumstance in a way, you
1:49
know, made some choices in my
1:51
life that I'm still proud of today, but
1:53
made some hard choices
1:54
in my life about picking,
1:56
you know, a job in marine biology or
1:58
raising a family in the
2:00
place that I grew up, which was
2:02
not by the coast, which is hard to hold
2:03
the marine biology job
2:05
when you're not by an ocean
2:06
coast. Right. I live by the Great Lakes,
2:08
which is lovely to live by,
2:10
but I live in Ontario, Canada.
2:12
There's obviously no ocean around us. And
2:13
so, you know, I, you know,
2:15
I was talking to my wife of
2:17
20 years now, but back then, you know, we
2:20
were planning out our life
2:21
and, and we were discussing
2:22
where we were going to live and we wanted
2:24
to raise our kids, you
2:27
know, around, around our family.
2:29
And I'll be honest, like I wasn't, I
2:31
didn't really want that right off the
2:32
bat. I wanted to like
2:34
explore and go and raise our kids around,
2:37
you know, around the
2:37
world and wherever this marine
2:39
biology place would take it. Because
2:40
Dave, as you know, it could take you
2:41
pretty much anywhere.
2:42
And when you live in Canada too, I mean,
2:44
you have three coasts to go
2:45
to. There's also the option
2:47
back then of the US, which was probably,
2:50
you know, those are the, those are the
2:51
geographies that were
2:52
what I was looking at. But, you know,
2:54
it's, these are difficult decisions to
2:55
make. You have to make
2:56
this personal decision. I knew it was
2:58
going to be tough one. I
2:59
chose, you know, I chose love and I
3:01
chose family over, over the job, which
3:03
again, I don't regret
3:04
because we've had a fantastic life.
3:06
It's really great to see, to raise kids
3:08
around like grandparents and
3:10
uncles and aunts and things
3:12
like that. So I think that was, was
3:14
really good. I didn't see
3:15
right off the bat, but as I,
3:17
as like my kids were growing up, they're
3:18
now, you know, my daughters,
3:20
my oldest daughter is now in
3:21
university, you know, doing marine
3:23
biology and or wildlife biology. And my
3:26
youngest daughter is,
3:28
you know, almost out of high school now.
3:29
She's in, she's a junior, I
3:32
guess is what you say. Is that
3:33
great grade 11 junior? Yeah. She's in
3:36
grade 11 going to grade 12
3:37
next year. So, you know, they're
3:38
older now, but I've been able to, you
3:40
know, we've been able to
3:40
raise our kids in a, in a familiar
3:42
place and around family, which has been,
3:45
which has been wonderful. But
3:46
it also has been a challenge to
3:50
be around the ocean or be working within
3:53
the ocean during that time.
3:55
And so in the early 2000s, you
3:57
know, I did my master's, I came back
3:58
here. I do my master's out in
4:00
Halifax. I came back here and,
4:02
you know, worked some, some private
4:04
consulting jobs, which it
4:06
paid the bills. I got to do some
4:07
ocean stuff. I got to do some riverine
4:09
stuff, some, some lake work, really kind
4:12
of cool stuff I got to do. And,
4:14
and that was a lot of fun, but it just
4:16
didn't do everything I wanted to do. One,
4:18
it wasn't in oceans.
4:20
Two, all the time, it was mostly riverine
4:22
and lakes. Two, it was, you
4:26
know, it was, it was working for
4:29
a lot of private consulting that I was
4:31
doing was working for
4:32
industry. And it's, it's good work
4:34
because you're working for industry to
4:35
make sure they're following regulations.
4:37
But you're working with industries like
4:39
oil and gas and like mining. And you
4:41
know, eventually what's going to happen
4:42
once they scout out sites, once they find
4:45
hydrocarbon places where they can, where
4:48
they can drill, eventually, it's going to
4:50
happen where they're going to drill,
4:51
they're going to ruin the environment at
4:52
some point in a specific
4:53
area, no matter what environmental
4:56
experiments you do and environmental
4:58
assessments, impact assessments, it's
5:00
still going to be, it's taxing on the
5:02
mind for someone who wants to protect the
5:03
planet rather than harm it even more. So
5:06
that was short lived for about four,
5:09
maybe five or six years. And then, and
5:12
then I started to, you know, I was, I was
5:14
on my own for a little bit. And I, I've
5:16
always had this entrepreneurial
5:18
motivation in me. And so, like, even,
5:22
even in my masters or my masters, I, I
5:26
was big into the marine aquarium hobby, I
5:28
was my geeky kind of hobby. And when I
5:32
lived out in Halifax, it's a lot more
5:33
expensive to have that hobby in Halifax,
5:37
because the transportation coming to
5:38
Toronto where I lived, it's a, it's a big
5:41
hub, it's an international hub, one of
5:43
the biggest airports in the world. But going to Halifax, it's an extra flight, it's hard to get to. So not only that, but it's a big hub.
5:52
And so I tried to do better. I could not
5:58
do better. I did not have that business,
6:01
uh, mindset at that point to do what I
6:03
wanted to do. Uh, but regardless, I tried
6:06
and there were, let's just say I was in a
6:08
one bedroom apartment, uh, lived with a
6:10
buddy of mine and my, my, my, uh, my girlfriend, my wife and my, my wife and my, my husband. And, uh, my wife and my wife and my wife and my wife and my wife, she was very, very busy.
6:12
my girlfriend who is now my wife,
6:15
and we had aquariums
6:17
everywhere, all over the house.
6:19
It was everywhere.
6:21
Let's just say we never had to worry
6:23
about moisturizing skin,
6:24
because the heat and the salt in the air
6:28
was quite wonderful.
6:29
But anyway, that was my first
6:32
entrepreneurial venture.
6:33
And then afterwards, after I stopped
6:36
consulting for a bit,
6:38
I tried to do that on
6:38
my own for a little bit,
6:40
did a couple jobs with government,
6:42
where I got to do some GIS
6:43
and Marine Protected Area
6:45
planning stuff for Department of
6:47
Fisheries and Oceans
6:48
here in Canada.
6:49
And then I started to
6:51
kind of get the bug of like,
6:53
hey, I wanted to stay in
6:54
touch with a lot of the people
6:56
that I've stayed in
6:56
touch with either online,
6:58
like Twitter and
6:59
Facebook were starting to come,
7:00
and YouTube were starting to
7:01
come bigger and bigger online.
7:03
2008, 2009, podcasting
7:05
was starting to come big,
7:06
although I hadn't really heard of
7:07
podcasting at that point.
7:08
I didn't know exactly what it was.
7:10
I just thought it was radio.
7:12
That's basically what I thought.
7:14
And then I get this bug
7:19
in me where I'm just like,
7:20
I'm going to start a blog.
7:21
I'm just going to start
7:23
a blog where every day
7:24
I'm going to write about something,
7:26
something in the ocean, an article,
7:27
or something I have on mind.
7:30
And then I realized
7:30
like writing is not easy.
7:31
It's hard and I'm not good
7:32
at it and I don't like it.
7:34
So that was a very quick kind of way of
7:38
doing things, right?
7:40
And yeah, sorry, go ahead.
7:41
No, I want to ask you.
7:42
So you're getting this interest and I can
7:45
tell you for writing,
7:46
I find there's two ways.
7:47
Either people have a knack
7:48
for writing or they don't.
7:51
I didn't, but I learned to. Right.
7:53
So writing, I just mentioned
7:54
that you can learn to write.
7:56
I couldn't write to save
7:57
my life until grad school
7:59
and then where you had
8:00
to learn how to write.
8:01
And then I found I really got into it.
8:02
But yeah, it's something
8:03
you got to learn to do.
8:04
But while you had this
8:05
passion to pursue this,
8:06
obviously you had to pay
8:08
some bills and keep going.
8:10
And so this was really
8:11
a side gig you had going
8:13
with the writing and the
8:14
blogs and all this stuff.
8:16
It was literally a side hustle.
8:17
So while I was off of
8:18
work, I really started.
8:20
I had young, like my kids
8:21
were toddlers at the time.
8:23
So I was busy, obviously being a dad,
8:26
I was busy with my work.
8:29
And then I was, and then so I
8:30
got to do it during the day.
8:32
And then finally I was
8:33
like, this is ridiculous.
8:33
I need to get a job
8:34
because it's not paying
8:35
any kind of bills.
8:36
So I need to get a job.
8:37
I actually was
8:38
fortunate enough to get a job
8:39
for fisheries notions, Canada
8:41
as an, it was an awesome job.
8:44
Like I, my first job there was wonderful.
8:46
I was working with a fellow by the name
8:48
of Dr. Nick Mandrak,
8:49
who's a, actually Dave, you'd get along
8:51
really well with him.
8:52
He's Nick Theologist as well.
8:54
And he, do you, have you ever heard of
8:57
Crossman and Crossman
8:58
like the field
8:59
identification book for fishes?
9:01
Yeah, I have.
9:01
Yeah. So that was his advisor.
9:04
It was Crossman was his advisor.
9:05
And he actually, there's a book called
9:06
Crossman and Mandrak.
9:08
Nick Mandrak was my, was
9:09
my, my boss at the time.
9:11
And I'll be honest, it was such a, it was
9:13
such a good gig
9:14
because he, because he was
9:15
in, in like, he was a researcher, but he
9:17
was an administration,
9:18
administration position
9:19
where he had to do a lot of
9:20
meetings across the border.
9:21
Cause you know, Great Lakes is all about
9:23
cross border relations
9:24
and things like that.
9:25
And science, we were on the science side.
9:27
And so he had like an
9:28
Excel sheet of projects to do.
9:30
Like it was like a
9:31
law, like 200 projects.
9:32
Cause basically the public would ask us
9:34
questions and we would
9:34
have to find out the answers.
9:36
And so, so they were
9:37
really cool, cool things.
9:39
And so he would have me do all these
9:41
projects and he goes, okay, I'm going to
9:43
wait for two weeks in meetings.
9:44
If you need anything, this is how long
9:46
ago it was hit me up on my Blackberry.
9:47
And I'm like, all
9:48
right, cool. No problem.
9:49
He goes, but if you
9:50
don't leave, you just do it.
9:51
If you have questions,
9:51
you know, we can get to it.
9:53
As long as you can move on to another
9:54
project, I'll give you like
9:55
six or seven projects at a time.
9:56
And I'll get to work on it.
9:57
But it was all science
9:58
stuff. It was all stats.
9:59
I was, I was a geek at that
10:00
point. There was some GIS.
10:01
We were doing like
10:02
Asian carp risk assessments.
10:03
We were doing, we were trying to find out
10:06
how similar the fish assemblages were in
10:10
each Lake over time.
10:12
So we had data back to like the 1800s and
10:14
then all the way to present day.
10:16
So we were kind of looking, they
10:17
obviously, they got similar as the lock
10:18
system kind of got built in and stuff.
10:20
And it was really
10:21
cool, cool things, right?
10:22
Everything was every day was different.
10:24
So, and I really, really enjoyed that,
10:27
which is kind of funny because it's going
10:28
to come, come into play in a bit.
10:30
But, but yeah. And then of course the
10:33
government comes in and, you know, we had
10:35
a conservative government.
10:36
So they wanted to cut a lot of stuff that
10:38
was happening at fisheries notions for a
10:39
number of different reasons.
10:40
So the position that I was about to move
10:42
into firm permanently got cut because it
10:45
was just a empty
10:47
position on the org chart.
10:48
And so instead of affecting somebody
10:50
who's already in a position, they just
10:52
cut that position out.
10:53
So I was kind of stuck. I went into doing
10:55
more database management and GIS
10:57
management, which I learned a lot,
10:58
but it wasn't, I wasn't having as much
11:01
fun. So eventually I left that position.
11:03
But while this was happening, I was doing
11:06
science communication on the side because
11:08
that's what I was realized, even though I
11:11
didn't like writing, I was
11:13
doing like YouTube videos.
11:14
And then I started, I started the
11:16
podcast, but I was just like, this is
11:19
what's fun, like, like telling stories,
11:22
like looking at articles and telling
11:23
people about stories in the ocean.
11:24
That's what I really enjoyed to do. And
11:28
and over time, I started to realize that
11:31
every time I was on a boat, like back in
11:34
the, like a couple of my
11:34
jobs were just field work.
11:36
Anytime I was on a boat, I love the
11:38
times, you know, when you're like, you're
11:40
not working outside, it's say the day's
11:42
done, you're on a ship and you're just
11:45
all around, you're all having dinner.
11:45
And then you're just trading stories from
11:49
the field. And, you know, I was on a
11:51
boat. One of my first jobs was at
11:52
Louisiana University's Marine
11:54
Consortium down in Louisiana.
11:57
And and we would have researchers come
11:59
out. We were basically like a business
12:00
and we would have researchers come out
12:02
and do fieldwork and they would rent the
12:05
ship and I would be the
12:06
Marine technician on the ship.
12:06
So I would get people from all over the
12:08
States, all over the world, really. And
12:10
we would be, I'd be listening to their
12:12
stories. I was a young kid at that point,
12:14
listening to their stories about, you
12:15
know, how they got seasick somewhere or
12:17
how, you know, like they lost
12:18
instrumentation somewhere, like just fun,
12:20
like weird kind of stories that would
12:22
happen out in the field.
12:23
And I and, you know, over as I started
12:25
doing the science communications, like
12:26
those are the stories that I love to
12:28
hear, like, or even just like what we
12:30
found here, we found this species or, you
12:33
know, we found evidence of such and such.
12:34
And it was just fun. Like, I always
12:37
enjoyed those stories. I always sat there
12:39
and listened as long as I could, even if
12:41
I was feeling sleepy and I had to get up
12:42
early in the next day.
12:44
And that's what I was trying, like when I
12:45
started the podcast, I started to try and
12:49
recreate those, those feelings by trading
12:51
stories with people, like having people
12:53
come on the podcast and be like, tell me
12:56
about this project or tell me about what
12:58
you're doing lately and
12:59
share it with everybody else.
12:59
Like, essentially, it's a conversation
13:01
between the two of us, but everybody else
13:04
is listening in like they're flying on
13:05
the wall so they can get the same
13:06
information and hopefully get the same
13:08
feeling that I did
13:09
doing that conversation.
13:11
And I did, I did about, I don't know, 10
13:14
to 12 of those episodes. There's
13:16
interviews was once a week. And then I
13:18
got the bug and I'm like, I upgraded my
13:20
microphone and I'm like, I'm doing five
13:22
days a week. And then after that, it was like, that was it for me.
13:23
Now, did you have any like, okay,
13:26
obviously this is the way early days of
13:29
podcasts and YouTube. And so did you have
13:32
any like, um, like technical skills or
13:36
any, how did you figure out some of this?
13:39
How did you figure
13:39
out some of this stuff?
13:41
Like with doing the, whether it was the
13:42
YouTube or the podcast or the, how did
13:45
you figure out some of
13:46
this stuff early days?
13:47
I didn't, it was lots of mistakes, right?
13:50
So podcasting back then. So this is like,
13:52
you were looking at, I started listening
13:54
to somebody put me on the podcast. A
13:56
friend of mine that used to play football
13:57
with put me on the podcast 2012, 2013.
14:00
I started to listen to a bunch about
14:02
entrepreneurship and things like that.
14:03
And because I want to be an entrepreneur
14:05
and, and then I was like, oh, like
14:07
there's nothing on
14:08
oceans on this in the pockets.
14:10
I think there was one, there was one show
14:13
that was on oceans and it, and it hadn't
14:15
run in a while. They haven't published
14:17
episodes in a while. And so I first
14:19
inquired about them. I was like, Hey, can
14:21
I do this podcast? Well, you have to
14:22
follow a certain, you have to follow this
14:23
type of, cause it was like a, it was
14:25
almost like a franchise.
14:26
It was only like a network. And so they
14:28
were just like, you had, it was a British
14:29
one. You have to follow a specific way
14:31
that they do things. And I was like, you
14:32
know what? Maybe that's not for me. I
14:34
want to kind of do it my own style.
14:35
Uh, and so I just, I kind of just said,
14:39
you know what? I'll do it myself. And
14:41
that's when I started to look at how easy
14:43
or difficult it was challenging. It was
14:45
to do like to put a podcast up and it
14:48
wasn't as easy as I thought it would be.
14:50
You know, there's a lot of their hosting
14:53
companies I had to find out about, and
14:55
then there was ways to do this and how do
14:56
you record? Then you, how do you get it
14:58
up there? I had to learn all of that.
14:59
I had, you know, because I had the
15:02
schooling and GIS and so I learned a lot
15:05
of different software, like remote
15:07
sensing software and GIS software,
15:09
statistical software, I had a little bit
15:11
of experience in learning new things.
15:13
And so I just, it was just patients. It
15:14
was a lot of time of like being on a
15:17
computer for like four hours every night,
15:19
you know, after the kids went to bed and
15:21
just kind of like my eyes would come out
15:23
and be all red, you know, just like, just
15:25
from looking at a screen the whole time,
15:27
trying to figure out
15:28
how to do this stuff.
15:28
And when I first did it, it was, it was
15:31
so bad, Dave, like I, I joined a hosting
15:34
company through another company. And then
15:37
that company, so I'd
15:38
upload it to that system.
15:41
And, and I started to publish and I was
15:43
like, Oh, this is great. This is great.
15:45
And of course, you know, I'm a numbers
15:46
guy. So I always like to look at
15:47
statistics and like what my numbers are
15:49
the download numbers and stuff.
15:51
And there's, I didn't realize there's
15:52
like a specific standard and, but there's
15:54
also ways that like the numbers can be
15:57
blown out of proportion. So there was one
15:59
day I woke up, I had published it at
16:01
midnight, I woke up in the morning and I,
16:02
the first thing I would
16:03
do is check my downloads.
16:04
I checked the downloads and normally I'm
16:06
getting like 25, you know, 26, 27. This
16:10
one, Dave, I was at 22,000, 22,000
16:13
downloads. And I was like, Oh, this is
16:14
amazing. Like, holy cow. Like, this is
16:17
awesome. Like I've made it.
16:18
I just said, I go, I don't have to get a
16:21
job anymore. I'm like, I am, I made it.
16:25
This is awesome. This is only in the
16:26
morning. Let's see what happens at night.
16:27
Then I find out all of those were
16:29
ridiculous numbers. They were bots. They
16:31
were this, they were that.
16:32
And I was like, that sucks. And then the
16:33
real hosting site, I went on to that
16:35
hosting site and it was like 30. So I had
16:38
like five more than normal. It was just
16:40
like, you know, then I realized that
16:42
there's a standard and stuff. So a lot of
16:44
it was fumbling through, you know,
16:46
microphones and things like that.
16:47
Like I had that Yeti microphone. If you
16:50
probably can't see it, like if you're
16:51
listening to this on the, on the audio
16:53
podcast, but there's a Yeti microphone
16:55
just in the back there and it worked
16:57
well. I didn't all be honest. I probably
16:58
didn't know exactly how to use it.
17:01
But it echoed a lot because my room is,
17:03
you know, is not insulated for sound. So
17:06
it echoed quite a bit. And so the sound
17:08
didn't sound as good as it does now. And
17:11
so I just upgraded my microphone and I
17:13
said, I'm going to spend like
17:14
500 bucks on this microphone.
17:15
So I don't have any worry whatsoever. And
17:18
I basically looked at the microphones
17:19
that radio stations that were publishing
17:22
online were using. And I'm like, okay,
17:24
I'm going to find out, okay, that's the
17:26
sure SM seven B. All right. I'm going to
17:28
go look it up on Amazon and find out what
17:29
it was and, and buy it.
17:30
And I and I and I ended up actually
17:33
before I bought it, I actually rented a
17:35
bunch of microphones at a local music
17:38
store that I have here called Long and
17:40
McQuaid. And I could rent it for like 15
17:42
bucks a week. I was like, this is great.
17:44
So I would do that. And and and then I
17:47
found out the sound was really good. So I
17:49
was like, this is perfect. I'll just buy
17:51
that microphone. And then whenever when
17:52
then I got invited to do a conference at
17:56
and I and I rented a bunch of microphones
17:58
and I went over there and
17:59
I had like two microphones.
18:00
And I had like a lot of people I would
18:01
interview people with. So, yeah, so it's
18:04
like, and it's just like when you, when
18:07
you look at these different things, a lot
18:09
of times people would email me and be
18:11
like, Hey, your sound
18:13
is awful on this one.
18:14
Like you got to figure, you got to figure
18:16
your stuff out. I'm like, Oh, okay.
18:18
Sorry. You know, and then you do it all
18:21
over again. There were times like, I
18:22
think my first episode I've recorded it.
18:24
They were 45 minutes long.
18:24
Like my first one of my first solo
18:27
episodes. I think I rerecorded it three
18:30
times because I kept losing it. I kept
18:32
deleting it by accident. I couldn't
18:33
figure out how to save it on the software
18:35
that I was using, you know, and so like
18:37
there were some frustrating times.
18:39
Like it wasn't easy. There was some times
18:41
where I was like, I spent while I spent
18:42
three hours recording one one episode
18:45
because I had to re do it every time. And
18:48
and yeah, so I think you if you really
18:52
want to do it, you figure it out. And that's that's just what I wanted to do.
18:53
And that's that's just what I do. I
18:54
fumble through things and I figure that
18:56
out. Did you have any like like do any
19:00
like, how did you figure out like how
19:02
doing like hosting and
19:03
doing that type of stuff?
19:04
How did you, you just kept doing it and
19:07
just figured just try to improve on what
19:09
you were doing? Yeah, I, the, you know, I
19:12
was always a shy kid growing up. When I
19:15
got to university, I kind
19:15
of came out of my shell.
19:16
I forced myself to come out of my shell a
19:18
little bit because I was like, I didn't,
19:20
I didn't have a good time socially in
19:22
high school. Right. And so when I got to
19:23
university, I say, I've got to, I got to
19:25
be different. I got to really show my
19:26
personality. And so I would just kind of
19:28
put myself out there. And that's what I
19:29
did here. And it sucked. Like it was hard
19:32
at times, especially a science person,
19:34
like a young science person. Yeah. I was
19:36
like, what if someone like Dave Ebert
19:39
hates what I say? You know, like, or what
19:42
if I'm wrong and I get, I, you know, I
19:44
get excommunicated from,
19:45
from the science person.
19:45
I was very, I was very concerned about
19:49
that. But in terms of my style, it's
19:52
always just been, I genuinely want to
19:55
know about what I invited this person on
19:59
for, right? About their project, about
20:00
what they've done in their lives, what
20:02
they've accomplished. I'm, I'm, I'm that
20:04
passionate about science and ocean
20:07
science and ocean
20:08
conservation that I want it up.
20:10
Like the questions I'm asking are
20:12
generally questions selfishly of what I
20:14
want to know. So the style just came from
20:17
that. Okay. I mean, you come across very
20:19
polished, you know, like I still kind of
20:21
stumbling along trying to figure it out
20:23
myself after five
20:24
years. I appreciate that.
20:25
You know, you come across very polished
20:27
and everything. And I just want to
20:28
mention one caveat to people. It's funny.
20:30
People that do these things like you and
20:33
me, like I was terribly introverted up
20:36
until graduate school.
20:36
I mean, I was people that knew me back in
20:39
high school and even in college
20:41
undergrad. I was just terribly quiet and
20:45
what turned it around for me was when I
20:47
was in doing my masters, one of my
20:49
professors, you know, he said, you know,
20:52
you got to be able to communicate to, you
20:54
know, it was back in the eighties.
20:54
You got to be able to talk to people. And
20:57
I said, you know, and I did try to keep
20:59
taking seminar classes. But what really
21:01
turned it around for me was this
21:03
professor goes like, okay, Dave, if I can
21:06
keep in mind, this is the 1980s.
21:08
But he said, yeah, if someone's going to
21:09
pay you $100 to get up and talk to that
21:11
audience, what are you going to do? I'm
21:12
like, hundred bucks. Hell yeah, I'll get
21:14
up there and talk. Just
21:16
need the right motivation.
21:17
Oh, man. And then it was just suddenly
21:19
turned it because what he did was what he
21:21
did. I talk. What he did was it turned
21:22
like this sort of introverted shy
21:25
experience like, wait, this is a job. I'm
21:27
getting paid. Damn it. Yeah. And so your
21:29
mindset's totally different. Well, hell,
21:31
I'm going to get up there and talk and do
21:33
what I can do. And of course, now it's
21:35
completely gone to now I'm doing hosting
21:37
a show with you. And I'm interviewing you
21:40
now for your own podcast. Now your
21:41
interview. Yeah, exactly. So I thought it
21:44
was good to share with people like young
21:46
people that might be quiet.
21:46
You know, it's the right motivation. I
21:49
think there's also something to say to I
21:51
as I did my like someone who's done his
21:54
masters before and obviously you've done
21:55
your masters in your PhD and had to
21:57
defend in front of probably the most
21:59
intimidating people at the time that you
22:01
have like your professors, you know,
22:03
their colleagues, there's an external
22:05
professor who comes in, you know, in
22:08
person and they can they travel to come
22:10
to see you being able to
22:12
talk science in front of them.
22:13
And, and, you know, answer their
22:17
questions on the research that I that I
22:20
was able to do. That's an intimidating
22:22
moment. Like, you know, you're nervous
22:24
during that moment because one, you don't
22:26
want to look like a fool.
22:27
And two, you don't want you don't want
22:30
them to be disappointed in you, right?
22:32
There's a there's that mentorship kind of
22:34
thing. And so I think my supervisor said
22:38
it best. John Roff. He said, you know,
22:40
you know, this even better than they do.
22:42
You know, this project better than they do.
22:42
So they're just going to ask questions
22:45
because they just want to know what you
22:47
did. You know, so they're not they're not
22:49
trying to fail you. They're just trying
22:52
to understand what you did. And if you
22:53
can explain what you did, you're good,
22:55
because you've already done all the work.
22:57
So now you just have to talk about the
22:58
stuff that you know best. And they're
23:00
just trying to figure out what you've
23:01
done. That's it. Right. You know, and
23:03
then, of course, there's the qualifying
23:04
exam where they're trying to like, see
23:06
how much you know, and dive down deep
23:08
where those I feel like those types of
23:11
tests those types of tests.
23:11
Those types of of events kind of harden
23:15
you a little bit as a scientist to be
23:17
like, I'm just going to put myself out
23:18
there and just see what happens. If I get
23:20
critiqued, it's not personal. Sometimes
23:22
it is, but you don't take it personally.
23:25
And and you just do what you got to do.
23:26
And I think trying to keep them I learned
23:28
early on to try and keep the emotion out
23:31
of being criticized. Then you realize not
23:34
that many people are criticizing you not
23:35
to your face anyway, they're not telling
23:37
me about it, you know, the odd person
23:39
would be but everybody
23:40
else is like, this is really
23:41
informative. Like, I'm really enjoying
23:43
the show. And so that made me that kind
23:45
of boosted my confidence to I even had a
23:47
professor like from Guelph where I did my
23:49
undergrad, I went back to teach or I went
23:52
back to talk to people about careers. And
23:55
afterwards, he Professor Robinson, he
23:57
came up to me and he said, How did you
23:59
learn? Like to enter the way you
24:01
interview? I'm like, What do you mean?
24:03
Like the questions you ask? Like, how did
24:05
you learn to come up with those? How did
24:06
you learn to like ask such inquisitive
24:08
questions? I'm like, I
24:10
just turned up like, you
24:11
taught me. And he's like, What do you
24:13
mean? I'm like, my professors taught me.
24:16
Like, I'm curious, like this is being a
24:18
scientist, like you're asking questions
24:20
because you generally want to know. I'm
24:22
not I was never trained as a
24:24
communicator. I was never I don't even
24:26
think I'm that good of a communicator.
24:27
Like, like when I look at my critique
24:28
myself, I'm just genuinely interested.
24:31
And so I asked questions based on
24:33
sometimes it's based on science,
24:34
sometimes it's based on conservation and
24:35
all this stuff. Now I've done so many
24:37
interviews, and I have so many different
24:39
perspectives and how
24:40
things are done around
24:41
the world, even doing beyond Jaws and
24:44
really getting around the world. Now
24:46
we're like, Okay, like, it's done this
24:48
way in this country. Have you ever
24:51
thought about doing it this way in our
24:52
country or wherever, you know, it's it's
24:54
it's it's now you're just pulling from
24:56
other things that kind of hit you at the
24:58
time, I kind of find to that, like, you
25:00
kind of like there's that expression
25:02
about, you know, you, if you don't learn
25:04
from history, you're doomed to repeat it.
25:06
Yeah, but also, I always had I always had
25:08
an interest in history. And I always, I
25:10
was very fortunate because my
25:11
professors would tell stories about old
25:14
time ecologists, you know, dead
25:16
ecologists, you know, long gone
25:17
ecologists, but they would have a
25:19
connection where they knew these people
25:20
going back, you know, it'd be like your
25:22
grandfather, great grandfather, and I
25:24
just used to enjoy the stories here,
25:25
like, what was this person really like?
25:28
Yes. And what kind of motivated to do
25:30
this stuff. So I always found that
25:31
interesting. And then some of the
25:33
journals I subscribe to, they run these
25:35
stories on. Unfortunately, it's usually
25:37
after they pass away. Yeah, the life
25:40
history. And I know this guy just wrote
25:41
a I've written a few of these obituaries
25:43
for Leonard Campano, my my advisor. And
25:47
and I kind of felt like when this gets
25:50
into where I got to know you, we came up
25:52
with this idea with the Beyond Jaws is
25:54
really just to kind of tell get instead
25:56
of me telling the story about, oh, yeah,
25:58
so and so, you know, is to get the people
26:00
actually on the podcast to tell their
26:03
story in their words.
26:04
Yeah. And I think that's I think, again,
26:07
young people, you know, it's I don't know
26:09
how you feel, but I think it's great to
26:10
be able to talk to someone who maybe you
26:13
didn't know that person, but you're a
26:15
connection or conduit to oil. I knew that
26:18
person. And I went and
26:19
talked to, you know, 100%.
26:21
Like, there are people that I've looked
26:23
up to my entire career who have recently
26:26
passed away and that have had an impact
26:29
on my career. And and so as a podcaster,
26:34
now I'm like, how do I memorialize what
26:36
they did for me or what they did for
26:38
other people? And what type of person
26:40
they are? You know, in the way I do is I
26:43
we've got this, we've got these
26:44
platforms, we got how to protect the
26:45
ocean, we got Beyond Jaws, you know, we
26:47
were able to speak to Jeff Carrier, you
26:49
know, on on the podcast and people can see me.
26:50
And I think that's fantastic. I think that's one thing that I've seen in the
26:51
podcast. And people can see what he's
26:52
like, you know, on the podcast to just be
26:55
able to talk to him and and hear from and
26:57
I thought, you know, once that we know
26:59
unfortunately when he passed, as sad as
27:02
we were, we're like, Hey, you know,
27:04
people get to know who he is through that
27:06
podcast, you know. So like for people are
27:08
like, Hey, have you ever
27:09
heard of Jeff carrier? No.
27:17
frame of reference, you know, we always
27:19
talk about in science
27:20
where it's like, you know,
27:21
use the coral reef kind of reference
27:22
where it's like coral
27:23
reefs in the fifties were
27:25
a lot different than what we see here.
27:26
But you know, growing
27:27
up in, in, you know, the
27:29
90s, the eighties, nineties and two
27:30
thousands, we think of a
27:32
different type of reef, right?
27:33
But we think that is what the reference
27:35
reef is instead of the
27:36
fifties and sixties reefs,
27:37
where they were
27:38
probably a lot more abundant.
27:39
Well, you know, one of the people we had
27:40
on, you know, like
27:41
Eugenie Clark is very well
27:42
known in the field. She has an award for
27:44
the, through the
27:45
American labs that breaks aside.
27:46
And I guarantee you most because I've
27:48
asked all the ones we've
27:49
had on there, they didn't
27:50
know like someone like Gavin Naylor, who
27:52
was on the podcast was
27:53
a student of hers. Yeah.
27:55
And if you go back and listen to the
27:56
podcast, which was one of
27:57
the first ones we did with
27:59
Gavin, he talks about what it was like to
28:00
be a student of
28:01
genies. And so like, and so
28:03
I hear you can get a firsthand account.
28:05
You hear about Eugenie
28:07
Clark's name a lot. Well,
28:09
here you hear someone and get, you know,
28:11
Gavin still goes to
28:11
the meetings. If you see
28:12
him at the meeting, I'm sure if you buy
28:14
him a beer, he'll tell
28:14
you all about Jeanie Clark.
28:15
And for sure and everything. And of
28:17
course there's been many
28:18
others, but she's a, it
28:19
was a very prominent person. And, um, and
28:22
I mean, I knew her as I
28:23
knew her, but I wasn't
28:24
a student of hers. Gavin actually was a
28:26
student of hers. And so
28:27
you can talk about some of
28:28
these people like in a first person,
28:30
like, well, what would she
28:30
like to have as an advisor?
28:32
And so I think that's the kind of stuff I
28:33
would think like, like
28:35
with this year podcast
28:36
and with the podcast we're doing with
28:38
beyond jaws is sharing
28:39
those stories of the people
28:41
that have kind of come before us and even
28:44
some in the moment
28:44
now. Um, well, and to be
28:46
honest, that, that customer, like one of
28:48
my next points that, that has kind of led
28:50
me to where I am is, is meeting all these
28:53
people. Yeah. You know,
28:54
it's amazing the response
28:56
you get when you send out an email or you
28:59
send a message or a
29:00
DM and be like, Hey, I
29:01
would love to feature you on my podcast.
29:03
I love your project. You
29:05
know, I've been following
29:05
your career for a while or just recently,
29:08
I love what you're doing. I would love to
29:10
promote you on the podcast and then you
29:12
just have a fun
29:13
conversation. And then it's
29:15
not just as David, you know, cause this
29:16
is how we met, not just
29:18
the conversation on the
29:20
podcast, I had the recording, it's the
29:22
two hour conversation
29:23
after, you know, where you
29:26
really get to know the person where you
29:28
start to really dive
29:29
into who that and, and you
29:31
know, there's certain people I jive with
29:32
really well and there's
29:33
others that just, they have
29:34
to leave and it's, you know, then I thank
29:36
them very much and
29:37
it's great. And they have,
29:38
they've done a great job on the interview
29:39
and, and it's wonderful,
29:41
but it's that connection
29:42
that you make. And then I continue to
29:45
have them on my network
29:46
on LinkedIn, on Instagram,
29:48
on TikTok, we're talking, we're, we're
29:51
working on these
29:51
volunteer projects together or we
29:53
do the podcast together, you know,
29:56
there's just so many ways
29:57
that the opportunities have
29:58
come just from having people on as a
30:01
guest and doing them a
30:02
favor and just being like,
30:03
I really like the stuff you're doing. I
30:05
would love it to, I'd
30:06
love to share it with this
30:07
little audience that I've built. Yeah. Oh
30:09
yeah. Well, and I can attest that because
30:11
because I had never, you're the first
30:12
podcast they ever did. Yes.
30:15
I think we spent two hours
30:16
talking about sports. Then we did the
30:17
podcast and we spent
30:18
another two hours talking about
30:20
sports. Yeah. And then, and then, yeah,
30:22
then we ended up doing a
30:23
shark podcast and we should
30:24
really probably be doing a sports
30:25
podcast, but I'll be later
30:28
on. We just run out of time.
30:29
Dave, we just have no more times with all
30:31
these podcasts. Oh, I
30:32
know. I know. And I want to say
30:33
one thing and I can, Andrew mentioned
30:36
this, but I can't, I tell
30:38
you, this guy works his, his
30:40
tail off because I'll, I'm on the West
30:42
coast out here in
30:43
California and he's, he's in the East
30:45
coast in Toronto and like, we'll, we'll
30:47
be what's happening. It'll be like nine
30:49
o'clock my time. And
30:50
he's, I think he's gone to bed. He's
30:51
still what's happening. Obviously I got
30:53
to record a show here
30:53
there. And I'm thinking like, dude, you
30:55
got to get up in a few hours
30:56
and actually go to work and
30:58
stuff. So he's, you, it takes a
30:59
dedication and a passion to be able to,
31:01
to do that kind of come
31:03
home from a day's job and then saddle up
31:05
and just do a whole spend the night
31:07
working on your podcasts
31:08
or podcasts that you're doing. Yeah.
31:11
Yeah. People underestimate how much work
31:14
it is, you know, when,
31:15
when you're doing a podcast that
31:16
regularly, um, like I'm at, I'm over 1900
31:19
episodes to give people
31:20
context. I think I've mentioned on this
31:22
podcast before we've
31:23
mentioned on the other podcasts and
31:24
we're, I think over a hundred on like,
31:26
but we do once, once every two
31:28
weeks. So we're, we've done a
31:30
lot as well. Uh, not even counting how
31:32
many interviews we've
31:33
actually done because there's
31:34
still the guitar fish wedge fish,
31:35
supposing them still getting over those
31:38
interviews for interviews
31:40
per episode. Yeah. Um, but, but you know,
31:43
it's, it's, you know, when
31:45
people look at what's needed
31:47
to be done, there's, there's, you know,
31:50
especially if you have an interview,
31:51
there's, you reach out
31:52
to the person, person says, yes, you do
31:55
your research. You come up
31:56
with a set of questions. Um,
31:59
you do a little pre-interview right
32:02
before you record, you record the
32:04
interview that takes like
32:04
45 minutes to an hour. Uh, afterwards you
32:08
talk maybe an hour or
32:10
two, um, you know, or a half
32:12
hour, depending on the person. Uh, and
32:14
then after that you have to process it,
32:16
you have to edit it,
32:18
you have to put it together, maybe do an
32:20
intro and outro to it. If it's a solo
32:21
show, you just do it
32:22
in one shot. Then you have to go through
32:24
the processing. You have to
32:25
come up with a transcript.
32:26
You have to do the show notes, the blog
32:28
posts, you have to do the social media
32:30
posts, a newsletter.
32:33
Um, you know, there could now with the
32:35
YouTube component and
32:37
everything, it, it takes hours,
32:39
you know, now obviously I do, I do it on
32:41
my own. I do have an editor now because
32:44
of the, the, the videos.
32:46
Um, but you know, it's, it's allows like,
32:50
and I use a lot of AI to, to help me
32:52
with, with processing
32:53
everything, uh, to give time back. You
32:56
know, I, I want like, I'm at a point now
32:58
in my life where I want time back
33:00
in my evenings, you know, so I can relax.
33:02
I'm getting older. I'm almost 48. You
33:05
know, it's, I want my time back. I know,
33:07
I know, I know, I know.
33:08
I'm not as old as you. I understand. Go
33:11
there, man. But you, but, but
33:13
Dave, I'll tell you something.
33:14
Like you work your butt off. I, I'll give
33:16
you that, but you also, you enjoy your
33:18
time with your family, your folks, you
33:20
enjoy your time swimming.
33:21
You enjoy, like as I think at sometimes
33:23
as, as marine biologists, uh, we tend to
33:27
burn ourselves out a lot by doing all
33:30
these passion projects or doing stuff for
33:32
free or for you, Dave, like, you know,
33:34
people email you all the time.
33:35
Like, Hey, I found this, like, can you
33:37
help me identify it? That kind of stuff.
33:39
Um, you know, other projects that you do
33:41
workshops and everything.
33:42
I know that of course the travel. So it's
33:43
like when we have the downtime, I've
33:45
realized, you know, at my age that
33:47
downtime is really important.
33:48
Um, and, and, you know, I, I tell that to
33:51
young marine biologists too. It's like,
33:52
yeah, get your work done if you want, you
33:54
know, build your skills, do that what you
33:56
need, but also don't forget
33:57
to enjoy, enjoy yourself too.
33:59
Like having some downtime.
34:01
If I was gonna say one other thing I'd
34:02
say too, at my age is that reinventing
34:05
yourself and like in my case, getting
34:07
into this, um, uh, doing this science
34:11
communication, the podcast and the stuff
34:13
I've been doing with you.
34:14
Um, I, if you had asked me 20 years ago,
34:18
even when I was, when I was your age, I
34:20
would have been like, I was just pretty
34:22
much the science. That's what it was.
34:24
Yeah. I mean, the landscapes changed a
34:25
lot because they're never, there wasn't
34:27
really the opportunities with the
34:29
different platforms now, but I was pretty
34:31
much hardcore. I love doing the science.
34:33
I mean, I hate to use the term hardcore,
34:36
but I loved, I mean, I was
34:37
just excited about it every day.
34:38
I'm like, Oh wow, I'm gonna go. Let's see
34:40
what you discover today. It's Christmas
34:41
again. Yes. Every day. Um, but I also
34:44
found, you know, it's like, is I kind of
34:47
advanced in my career. I get to point
34:49
where it's like, well, do I need to do
34:51
another, you know, whatever publications
34:54
or this and that. I still enjoy doing
34:55
that, but I've kind of learned in a whole
34:57
new area, like the science communication
35:00
thing. I've kind of been on this journey
35:01
with you really. Yeah. It's been a really
35:03
exciting to me because it's like, it's
35:06
just a whole something
35:07
new. It's a challenge.
35:08
It is to learn this stuff and it really,
35:11
and I can tell you it, it's a lot of
35:13
work. If people listening out there,
35:14
like, oh, if you think you're like, I'll
35:15
go start a podcast. It's a lot of work
35:17
and I don't do a fraction of what Andrew
35:19
does, but I can tell you for they just do
35:21
in our, our beyond jaws podcast. It's a,
35:24
it's a, it's a passion project now for me
35:27
to really enjoy it, but it's, it's not,
35:30
it's not easy and it takes time to do.
35:31
And I think you told me this, Andrew,
35:33
like most podcasts are maybe, maybe get
35:35
10 episodes tops out of that. Yeah. If that's what I'm talking about.
35:38
Yeah.
35:39
And you know, we're, we're up around to
35:40
think about almost about 150 episodes now
35:42
for the beyond jaws. So it's not, again,
35:45
we got a long ways to catch up to your
35:46
other show, but, but, but concern we
35:49
started from nothing. It was a concept
35:50
and an idea really.
35:53
And, and it kept it on.
35:55
I think, I think the thing I always, I,
35:58
I, I always go by the mantra. It's like,
36:01
I'm going to outwork everybody else.
36:03
Yeah. I may not have the best skillset. I
36:05
may not have the, the, the, I may not be
36:08
the most intelligent person in the room,
36:09
but I'm going to be, I'm going to work
36:11
the heck out of you. And I learned that
36:13
at a young age playing football is I can
36:15
outwork you. And if I outwork you, then
36:18
I'm going to, I'm going to have a one up
36:19
on you, you know, and it's going to
36:21
benefit me in every way.
36:24
And, and I think, you know, you talk, you
36:26
talk about doing the pivot. I, I, I've
36:29
pivoted a few times. I didn't know after
36:31
my masters didn't know where I was going
36:33
to fit in coming home to Ontario. I
36:35
didn't know where, if I was ever going to
36:36
find something I liked it. Like I said, I
36:38
did the, the, the marine consulting or
36:41
the environmental
36:42
consulting didn't love it.
36:44
I went into, I worked a little bit
36:47
nonprofit, like German masters and it was
36:49
fun, but like it doesn't pay much. It's
36:52
hard to have a, like to have a family on
36:55
those types of salaries and live in the
36:57
area that we live in. We live in a very
36:58
expensive area in Southern Ontario or not
37:01
very expensive, but it's,
37:02
it's, it's tough to live.
37:03
Like we got in at the right time. Let's
37:04
just say, you know, nowadays, I don't
37:06
know if I can afford a home if I was
37:08
starting out today. I don't think many of
37:10
us could, but regardless, you know,
37:13
there, there it's just, it's, it's a,
37:16
it's a difficult, it's a difficult thing.
37:18
And when you don't really feel like
37:20
you're in the place where you belong and
37:22
like, you know, I never felt satisfied
37:25
with doing something until I started
37:29
doing science communication because I
37:31
was, I started to get really good at it.
37:34
And, and in terms of like, I enjoyed it a
37:36
lot. Every time I do an interview still
37:38
to this day, I get pumped. I don't even
37:40
go talk to my wife about it. My wife
37:42
would be like, oh my God, here he goes.
37:43
Like, he's ready to talk about science.
37:47
But yeah, like I get, I get super excited
37:49
because it's something new. I get to
37:50
talk, especially when I get to talk to
37:51
either, you know, colleagues have come on
37:53
a number of times or, you know, with,
37:54
with people that I've, I've, I'm just
37:56
first meeting and
37:57
getting to know their projects.
37:58
It's an exciting time for me to do it.
38:00
And so it was like, once I found that
38:03
out, once I figured that out, I started
38:06
to tell myself, I'm like, this is what I
38:07
want to do. You know, in, in marine, this
38:10
is where I'm, this is
38:11
where I'm going to excel.
38:12
And I didn't know if it was going to be
38:14
continuing with the podcast on my own and
38:16
building that out as a business, which I
38:18
didn't know how to do at any point in
38:19
time. I don't have Joe Rogan numbers. I
38:22
don't want to be Joe Rogan, but I don't
38:23
have Joe Rogan numbers.
38:25
Who's the highest, like, he's probably
38:27
the person who gets the most podcast
38:29
downloads per episode. But I also like I
38:34
really like doing this. So I didn't know
38:35
if that was going to be it or if I was
38:37
going to find a job with somebody.
38:38
And I have applied to a lot of science
38:42
communication jobs over the years. And I
38:44
don't know if it was just, I didn't
38:48
communicate well what I do, or people. I
38:51
also wonder if the marine conservation
38:52
world don't really have an understanding
38:55
of how powerful podcasting is in a way
39:00
for marine science, right?
39:01
If I can speak from a just having gone,
39:06
I've kind of transverses these different
39:07
eras. And one of the things in the
39:10
science fields, and I think it will
39:13
obviously speak firsthand to marine
39:14
science, but I think a lot of sciences,
39:16
the problem has been
39:18
communicating to the public.
39:20
You got to, there's been very few people,
39:23
and I'd say even today, that are really
39:25
credible scientists that actually cross
39:28
over and do like the podcast type of
39:31
stuff or science outreach stuff. Most of
39:33
the people, they're one or the other.
39:35
They find a niche in the end. I'm not
39:37
saying either one's bad, but if somebody
39:39
you have somebody understands the science
39:41
and they can communicate that because the
39:43
scientists traditionally and even today,
39:47
I think a lot of the ones that do a lot
39:49
of the really cutting edge stuff, they're
39:51
busy doing their cutting edge stuff and
39:52
they just don't have
39:53
time to talk to people.
39:56
And when they do, then they don't break
39:58
it down to the so the average person can
40:00
understand what they're talking about.
40:01
Right. You know, I've talked
40:03
about one of my favorite things.
40:04
I've talked about one of my mentors early
40:06
in my career, John McCasker, who is the
40:08
director of the Steinhardt Aquarium. And
40:10
he was and I kind of realized at the time
40:12
that he was one of the few people I knew
40:15
who could take a complicated thing and he
40:17
could literally because
40:18
I was with him sometimes.
40:19
He could talk to like, you know, the guys
40:21
in the dock about something and just in
40:24
simple terms. I don't mean simple terms,
40:26
but in a layman's term that they can
40:29
understand. He wasn't
40:29
talking down to him.
40:30
But they'd like, oh, yeah, I know I get
40:32
with no, I know I understand that and
40:34
unfortunately, most people in the field
40:36
don't do that. I was fortunate. I
40:39
recognized it with them. But you know, he
40:41
was one of the few at that time that
40:44
could do that. Most of the people would
40:46
get really enthusiastic. And I'd hear
40:47
this over and over like, wow, that guy
40:49
really is enthusiastic. But I have no
40:51
idea what he's talking about.
40:52
Exactly. Or, or they don't care enough.
40:56
It's not enticing enough. You know,
40:58
people are used to storytelling. Yeah.
41:01
And we need to bring that emotion back
41:03
into storytelling from the science. You
41:05
know, we need to extrapolate the science
41:06
that people need to know.
41:08
We need to put it in a way that people
41:09
and that takes a while for scientists to
41:12
be able to do because we've been trained
41:13
to be analytical. We've been trained to
41:15
as Randy Olson says, you know, speak to
41:18
the brain. So if I give you facts, you
41:20
should be able to understand it.
41:20
And that will therefore that will change
41:22
your behavior because it's a logical
41:24
thing to do. Humans don't act logically a
41:27
lot of times, a lot of times will act on
41:28
emotion. So if you make it funny, sad,
41:31
you make them angry, make them happy.
41:33
That was like you go for their gut.
41:35
That's what it does. But I think, you
41:37
know, going back to what going back to
41:39
what you're saying in terms of like why
41:41
podcasts is such a good platform is
41:44
people listen to podcasts
41:46
longer than any other platform.
41:49
Maybe YouTube now is a little bit better
41:51
because getting a little longer. But even
41:53
then, you know, you're looking at, you
41:55
know, these short form video platforms
41:57
like Instagram and TikTok, you're looking
41:59
at under three minutes. YouTube, you're
42:01
looking at between three to five minutes
42:02
podcasts. On average, people listen
42:04
between 20 and 45 minutes because you can
42:07
take your little device here and take it
42:10
out. You know, you can take your little
42:12
you can take your device and go out and,
42:15
you know, push your earbuds on or
42:17
whatever and go for a walk. You can go for a walk.
42:18
You can go for a drive. Yeah, go
42:21
exercise. I mean, I sometimes, you know,
42:24
especially in California, people, you
42:25
know, those they'll commute one to two
42:26
hours a day each way going to work and
42:28
you put on a podcast,
42:30
you know, you're good.
42:33
You know, yeah, you know, put on Beyond
42:35
Jaws, hopefully, or how to protect the
42:37
ocean and, you know, so yeah. Yeah. So
42:41
tell us about this job.
42:42
You just yeah, career change.
42:44
So yeah, so so I am now as of so this is
42:49
going to go up the Good Friday. So as of
42:52
next week, if whenever you're listening,
42:53
as of the seventh, I'm going to be an
42:55
oceans communication manager for
42:58
consulting firm called Pisces Ocean and
43:02
their tagline is eliminating barriers to
43:05
oceans project success,
43:06
Ocean Project success.
43:07
And the idea behind that is we work with
43:11
clients that could be for profit
43:13
companies, nonprofit organizations,
43:15
academic institutions that have projects
43:17
and we help them not only we have kind of
43:21
like pillars. So we'll do
43:22
like strategic consulting.
43:24
That's one pillar. We'll have another
43:25
pillar. That's that's like project
43:26
management and grant management for
43:28
projects. And then and then there's the
43:30
communication side. So the idea around
43:32
all of it as it fits together is we help
43:34
make their projects more successful, you
43:36
know, by helping them.
43:37
Like a lot of academic institutions,
43:39
usually they'll have labs or they'll
43:41
have, you know, collaborative project,
43:46
let's just say, and they may not have the
43:48
resources to handle the, you know, all
43:51
the administration for grants or how to
43:53
manage that project or they may not have
43:55
the people to do the project management,
43:56
but they also may not have the consulting
43:59
and they may not be able to tell their
44:01
story properly, you know, and so we work
44:03
with clients to do that.
44:04
And I'll be the ocean communications
44:06
manager. I've, you know, obviously I have
44:08
a science background, have the
44:10
communication background. So we'll be
44:12
working with clients from all over, you
44:15
know, the spectrum of working in the
44:17
ocean. I always like to say working with
44:18
companies, projects, nonprofits who have
44:21
a net positive impact on the ocean.
44:23
And so that's like, you know, the
44:26
consulting that I did back, you know, in
44:28
the early 2000s was all about working
44:30
with companies who have almost a net
44:32
negative impact on the ocean here, we're
44:35
working with the opposite.
44:35
And it's exciting because there's,
44:38
there's, there's going to be, you know,
44:40
clients that are working with AI to
44:42
reroute shipping channels to so that they
44:45
stay away from high biodiversity areas or
44:48
out of Wales migration routes and still
44:51
be efficient for, for, for, for gas and
44:55
diesel and stuff like that. So all these
44:58
different types of projects
44:59
that we get to work with it.
45:01
It, it won. I remember I told you, I
45:02
really like working on different projects
45:04
when I was working for DFO, like I get to
45:06
do the same thing here and I get to do
45:08
communications. So that includes a number
45:09
of different things and it'll be
45:11
different for every client, but maybe
45:13
helping them with podcasting, helping
45:14
them with social media, helping them
45:16
design their website, just really
45:18
strategize on the storytelling aspect.
45:21
And that'll be, that'll be the fun part.
45:23
I get to use my creativity. I get to use
45:25
the sun, like the science. And then I get
45:27
to bring that all together into telling
45:28
like a really good story for each of
45:31
those clients that are unique to them,
45:33
the clients, but also something that
45:35
people can really, you know, grab, grab a
45:38
hold of and, and, and learn and be able
45:41
to speak about as well.
45:42
So super exciting. You know, it's, it's
45:44
a, it came from the person who hired me
45:48
Natalie Gilson, who's the co-CEO at this
45:52
company. We've been, we've been friends
45:54
for, for a few years now. I, she found me
45:57
through the podcast. She was working, she
46:00
had her own marketing shop. She wanted to
46:03
get more of, work in an area where she
46:05
had more of an impact, especially on the
46:07
ocean because she
46:07
loved the ocean so much.
46:09
And then she found the podcast and she's
46:11
like, this is great. This guy's Canadian.
46:12
We actually lived, we didn't at the time,
46:14
we didn't live, we lived maybe like 45
46:16
minutes away from each other. We had some
46:18
conversation. I had her on the podcast.
46:19
You know, we just talked a lot about
46:21
different things. And then recently at
46:24
the world ocean conference, I got, I got
46:26
offered a job to work with her and, and
46:28
which we had talked
46:29
about on and off for a bit.
46:31
Uh, just never came to be at the, at the
46:33
right time. And, uh, now it's like super
46:36
exciting. We're Ray, we're gung ho for,
46:38
for doing this. And, um, yeah, it's,
46:40
it's, it's, uh, it's, it's pretty
46:42
exciting on a number of different levels,
46:44
Dave, not only cause of the job I get to
46:46
do, but the work that I put in over the
46:49
last like 16 years in communication to
46:52
get all that experience to get, um, you
46:55
know, to do something
46:56
that I love full time.
46:58
You know, I've been working, one thing
47:00
that we haven't really discussed, I've
47:01
been working a separate job for the last
47:03
like six and a half years just to, just
47:06
to pay the bills and I was working in
47:08
software, which I had a great time doing.
47:10
I love the people I work with. I learned
47:11
a lot. Um, but it wasn't like, I always,
47:14
there's always still this hole like that.
47:16
I'm like, I didn't belong there. I belong
47:18
to do something different and more
47:19
important for me. Right. And I think, you
47:21
know, you said the thing you said there
47:23
too. And like, you know, you talk, talked
47:24
earlier about how I kind of like have a
47:26
where I'm at in my life.
47:28
Now I have different things, but you
47:30
know, back when I was younger than you
47:32
even, but even at that point, you know,
47:35
I, and I've talked a little about this in
47:36
some of the shows, but you know, I did a
47:38
lot of different things, but I kept my
47:40
eye on the ball where I wanted to go. And
47:42
that's, that's the big thing. It's been
47:44
people talk about going in the field and
47:46
you know, they're 28 years old and they
47:48
can't figure out where they can't find a
47:49
job. It's like, well, you know, it might
47:50
take you a while to, to after grad school
47:53
to, uh, to, I mean, it,
47:55
it was 10 years, at least.
47:57
Yeah.
47:58
After I finished my PhD before I, uh,
48:00
before I actually found a job, actually
48:02
probably a little more than 20, 10 years,
48:04
I worked and I worked,
48:04
I worked in aquaculture.
48:06
Yeah.
48:07
You know, and I, and
48:08
it was abalone, right?
48:09
Yeah. I did abalone for 10 years.
48:10
Yeah.
48:11
And, uh, it was a business. My brother
48:13
and I started with a few other partners
48:14
just because we couldn't find a job. So
48:16
we just literally created our own job.
48:18
And, uh, but what I kept doing though,
48:21
and this is exactly what you did.
48:23
I'd finished it. And when you're in your
48:25
business for yourself, like aquaculture,
48:27
you're farming it. So it's not like an
48:28
eight to five job, but when I'd finish up
48:31
the end of the day, I'd go home and every
48:33
night, three, four hours, usually till
48:35
midnight or so, I would be at home
48:37
working on papers, doing a
48:39
different, you know, projects.
48:41
I was working on my shark. That was my
48:43
shark time. Like, I mean, you and I are
48:44
so parallel like that, Andrew.
48:46
Oh, yeah.
48:47
And I did that for 10 years. And so until
48:51
I had an opportunity to go back into
48:52
doing sharks and that sometimes you have
48:55
to do that extra. And the only reason I
48:56
got the job when it opened up was because
48:59
they saw me at conferences. I was, I was
49:02
publishing more papers at the, in the
49:05
nineties than people with
49:07
actual jobs in the field.
49:09
Yeah.
49:09
And so like, uh, and I was fortunate, my
49:11
former advisor, Greg Kai, recognize that.
49:14
And when he had an opportunity with some
49:16
funding, he had, he hired me to come in
49:17
and run the Pacific shark research center
49:19
with them and started up.
49:21
And, but it was the same thing.
49:22
Like I was, you know, my days didn't end
49:24
till after midnight pretty much. And I
49:26
had to be up at five to go do so, you
49:29
know, maybe getting
49:30
five hours sleep at night.
49:32
Oh, I know that very familiar.
49:34
That's why when I get these messages from
49:36
you and I know it's after midnight your
49:37
time, I, I appreciate that. And I'm very
49:40
respectful because I know I was there for
49:43
a lot of years. And then he kind of hit
49:44
that point now where like I still put it,
49:47
I put in the pretty good times, but
49:49
you've got other commitments and just
49:51
like, you know, I don't, I don't need to
49:53
be up to one o'clock this morning doing
49:55
that at this point in my
49:56
life and stuff, you know,
50:15
I'm like, I'm going to do this separate
50:17
and build those skills. Like you have to
50:18
have a good workflow where like, I'm
50:20
going to work these days and you got to
50:22
set boundaries and other days I'm going
50:23
to have some time off, you know, and, and now, like, I'm going to do this separate and build those skills.
50:25
And, and, and now like it's paid off
50:29
where, you know, there's going to be the
50:31
podcast is going to be involved, not
50:32
always with, with Pisces, like where I'm
50:35
working now, but there'll be some clients
50:37
that we have on the podcast there because
50:39
they're, they're really important to
50:40
what, what I want to do
50:41
with the, with the podcast.
50:42
And so there's going to be a blend in
50:45
that a little bit. So it's not always
50:46
going to be separate. It's not always
50:47
going to be like, I have to stay up till
50:49
11 just to record podcasts or something
50:51
like that. No, like I'll be able to do it
50:53
pretty early. Also,
50:54
I'll get my evenings back.
50:55
That's what I'm, I'm really excited.
50:56
Cause not only am I going to be working
50:57
my butt off during the day for Pisces and
51:01
the podcast, but it's like, I get my
51:02
evenings back. You know, I get to work
51:04
out again on a regular basis.
51:06
I get to spend time with my kids a little
51:08
bit more, you know, my wife, you know, a
51:10
little bit more like it's just, just to
51:13
relax a little bit more, you know, and,
51:16
and, and that's, that's important to me
51:17
at this point in time.
51:19
And, and to get to a point where I can,
51:22
you know, eight hours a day, I've been
51:23
saying this for, for 16 years, I just
51:25
want to get to a point where I can work
51:26
on oceans during the day, eight hours a
51:29
day. And now I get to do that.
51:31
I think it's, I think it's really great.
51:33
And I get to work with these, these great
51:35
companies, organizations and projects
51:37
that are doing good for the ocean. And,
51:40
and, you know, I get to have a hand in
51:41
that. And I think that's, that's really
51:43
great. And, and I'll tell you like that.
51:45
The, you know, the interview was very,
51:48
there was, there was like, you can almost
51:49
say there was no
51:50
formal interview process.
51:52
This was done over years and it was done
51:54
getting to know each other and how we
51:55
work together and doing relationships,
51:58
the networks, it's a relationship, right?
52:00
It's working on volunteer projects
52:01
together, seeing how we are, you know,
52:04
personality wise. So it's almost been, I
52:05
guess, like a three to
52:06
four year interview process.
52:08
If you really want to put it that way,
52:10
but we work really well together and,
52:13
and, and I've met like, this is going to
52:14
be a small boutique consulting firm from
52:17
now we will be growing and, and I'll
52:20
hopefully be part of that.
52:21
And, and, you know, I'm looking to, to
52:24
like really do some great things and I'll
52:26
talk about it on the podcast. Of course,
52:27
I'll talk about it on Beyond Jaws and
52:29
stuff, but this is
52:30
going to be a lot of fun.
52:31
So I'm like ready to dive in, you know,
52:33
head first on, on this and, um, and, and,
52:36
and kick some, kick some butt for the
52:37
ocean. Great. Well, well, Daniel will
52:39
definitely have to have
52:41
you back on the show here.
52:42
And I'll check the ocean and, uh, and
52:45
find follow up on how it's going with the
52:47
job. And we'll certainly talk about it on
52:49
the Beyond Jaws podcast as well. Yes.
52:52
And, um, and I just want to, want to
52:53
thank you for coming on the
52:54
show today and, uh, you bet.
52:58
Thank you for having me as a guest.
53:00
And so, uh, we'll see how the, we'll see
53:03
how the show does in the, in the, uh,
53:05
metrics here. And you might see me after
53:07
the show after this.
53:08
Oh, no, no, no, no, that's insane. Of
53:10
course we're going to have you back.
53:11
We'll have you back for your own stuff
53:13
too. And, and people like check out how
53:15
to protect the ocean. Like we talk about
53:17
careers all the time.
53:18
Sorry, beyond Jaws, you know, we talked
53:20
to people who are meandering in and out
53:22
of careers. Like we say this every time
53:24
and, and people agree with us that our
53:26
guests agree with us is it's not a
53:28
straight path. It's very rare where it's
53:30
a straight path from going from graduate
53:31
school or going from undergrad and
53:34
working right in there and doing exactly
53:35
what you want because
53:36
science is different.
53:37
And you never know what you're going to
53:38
love, whether it's the science side, the
53:40
conservation side, the business side, you
53:42
never know what you're
53:43
going to be able to do.
53:44
Uh, and where it's going to lead you to.
53:46
And then there's going to be pivots.
53:48
There's going to be that, but check out
53:49
beyond Jaws because, uh, that, that
53:51
podcast really shows in
53:53
real life what it's like.
53:54
And if I get one other plug to the other,
53:56
uh, the, uh, my other YouTube channel,
53:59
which is on, uh, law shark guy, we got
54:02
his documentary series. Andrew is working
54:04
on with me to a certain titled searching
54:06
for law sharks, extinctioner live.
54:08
And I tell stories literally. And that's
54:11
a whole other thing for not conversation
54:13
for another time. But I blundered into,
54:16
but it's, it's share stories. And one
54:17
thing I have to share it and say about,
54:19
you know, being on my point in career and
54:20
you're this next, this next episode is
54:21
kind of, I share a lot of my own personal
54:23
journey and connection with a lot of
54:24
these sharks that we're looking for.
54:26
And the next one, the river sharks
54:27
stories coming up here. Oh man, it's a
54:30
good one. The next 10 days or so. Uh,
54:33
check it out because I, I, I talk in that
54:35
one and share about how the
54:36
whole field of, uh, in person.
54:37
Uh, in part, uh, shark conservation
54:39
started because there was no field when I
54:42
started there was, it's hard for young
54:43
people to think about this and we'll talk
54:45
about this maybe on one of our beyond
54:47
jaws, but there was no field of shark
54:49
conservation when I
54:50
started out in the eighties.
54:51
It just didn't exist. It was not, it was
54:53
not a term at all. So, uh, people didn't
54:55
want to know that much about it. Well,
54:57
and it goes to be asked to go show like
54:58
that work, my work on that,
55:00
doing the editing for that.
55:01
You know, doing the editing for videos,
55:03
doing the editing for podcasting, whether
55:05
they're videos or audio, uh, you know,
55:08
doing social media, doing newsletter
55:09
management, doing webinar management, all
55:13
of these things have
55:14
helped me get this job.
55:17
Yeah.
55:17
You know, to a point where like I have to
55:19
do, my new boss was like, how have you
55:21
not been hired for this type of job
55:23
earlier? When you, so when someone says
55:25
that to you, you're like,
55:28
okay, like this is kind of cool.
55:29
And then you realize like, I got to start
55:31
talking about more what I do because
55:33
people don't realize, but yeah, like
55:35
that's, that's really what it comes down
55:36
to. And like the, I talked about earlier
55:38
this week in one of our episodes.
55:41
Like if you can't find experience by
55:43
doing a job, you can, there's a lot of
55:46
ways you can do it yourself and, and, and
55:48
figure that out as sacrificing. There's
55:50
no doubt about it. For me, it was time
55:52
and some sleep, but for the most part,
55:54
you know, you can do it and, and you can
55:56
do it pretty well and still have a life while you do it.
55:58
Like I, I have to admit, like my podcast
56:01
frequency of publishing is, is a little
56:03
insane and because I love it so much, but
56:06
you know, for most people who want to do
56:07
one show a week or one show a month or
56:09
one show every two weeks, it's not as
56:11
it's, it's work, but it's
56:12
not as bad as you think.
56:14
And so, you know, definitely think about
56:17
that because, because communication is a
56:18
big, big growing part of this, of the
56:21
conservation field. So with that said,
56:24
Dave, thanks for
56:24
hosting. I do appreciate it.
56:26
No problem, buddy. And we'll look forward to having you back
56:28
on soon. And I will be asking you the
56:31
questions next time. Okay. All right.
56:32
Thanks a lot. Thanks everyone for joining
56:34
us today. Happy conservation. Bye bye.