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Unleashing The Light Within You: with Elaine Welteroth · QUESTION EVERYTHING

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Big things happen when you're pretty, pretty bold, pretty clever,
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: pretty strong. I'm Danielle Robe and each week my guests
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  Speaker 1: and I have conversations that put a new spin on
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  Speaker 1: pretty This is pretty smart. Hello, I hope you're having
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  Speaker 1: a really great week. Before we jump into today's episode,
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  Speaker 1: I want to talk about something that has been on
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  Speaker 1: my mind this week. Gut, instincts and intuition. I started
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  Speaker 1: thinking about it because I saw the movie Golda, which
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: is about Golden Myyir and the Yom Kipper War. Golda
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  Speaker 1: was the fourth Prime Minister of Israel and the only
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  Speaker 1: woman to ever hold that post. Now, the war started
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  Speaker 1: because Egypt in Syria launched a surprise attack on Israel
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  Speaker 1: on October sixth, nineteen seventy three. But a day and
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  Speaker 1: a half before then, there were starting to be some
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  Speaker 1: whispers that an attack might occur. One of the generals
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  Speaker 1: was talking to Golda about those whispers and said, should
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  Speaker 1: we prepare? Should we get the troops ready? Golda, what
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  Speaker 1: does your gut say? Ultimately, they decided not to mobilize
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  Speaker 1: their troops, and when Egypt and Syria attacked, it cost
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  Speaker 1: the Israelis thousands of lives and it was really a
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  Speaker 1: dire situation. At the end of the film, Golda has
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  Speaker 1: to answer to members of the Kanesset, which is the
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  Speaker 1: Israeli government, about the war and if there were any
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  Speaker 1: wrongdoings on her part, and the movie ends with her saying,
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  Speaker 1: my gut told me they were planning an attack. It
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  Speaker 1: was such a powerful moment in the film that it
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  Speaker 1: really got me thinking about gut instincts. So often our
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  Speaker 1: bodies know things, they're telling us something, and we ignore them.
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  Speaker 1: We ignore them for so many reasons because our mind
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  Speaker 1: wants something else, our heart wants something else. Even societal
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  Speaker 1: programming will have us making a different decision. Here's an example.
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  Speaker 1: So years ago I read a book that both Oprah
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  Speaker 1: and Megan Kelly have talked about a lot. It's called
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  Speaker 1: The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker, And without
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  Speaker 1: going too deep into the book, there's this one chapter
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  Speaker 1: that has always stayed in my mind. The author describes this,
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  Speaker 1: and it's a real story. He describes this woman who
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  Speaker 1: is walking upstairs towards her apartment with groceries and some
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  Speaker 1: guy comes in and says, can I help you with those?
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  Speaker 1: There was something about him or the way he asked
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  Speaker 1: that just felt off. Her intuition was telling her something
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  Speaker 1: was wrong, but she felt like she didn't want to
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  Speaker 1: be impolite, so she let him help her. And as
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  Speaker 1: he was walking in to help carry the groceries into
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  Speaker 1: her apartment, he locked the door, and that night she
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  Speaker 1: was almost raped and killed. Now, luckily it was also
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  Speaker 1: her intuition, her gut instinct that allowed her to get
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  Speaker 1: out of that situation alive. But I think about that story,
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  Speaker 1: that chapter all the time because we are given this
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  Speaker 1: gift of gut instincts, and oftentimes we ignore them, but
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  Speaker 1: our bodies know things. How about this. Usually when I
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: interview somebody who has been divorced, I asked them off camera,
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  Speaker 1: did you know when you were walking down the aisle
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  Speaker 1: that something was wrong? Every single person that I've asked
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  Speaker 1: has said yes, every single one. Now, maybe their hearts
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  Speaker 1: wanted to be married. In their mind, they wanted to
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: be married. There's a ton of different reasons to get married,
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  Speaker 1: but they all said in their gun, but they knew
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  Speaker 1: that something didn't feel right. I know that was kind
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  Speaker 1: of intense, but I just wanted to share because I
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  Speaker 1: think for a lot of my twenties, I ignored my
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  Speaker 1: gut instincts. I didn't even know how to tap into them,
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  Speaker 1: and now I'm really trying to lead with them. And
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  Speaker 1: oftentimes it feels like if something is on my mind
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  Speaker 1: or heart, it's on your mind or heart too. Okay,
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  Speaker 1: without further ado, we have a really incredible episode today.
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: I mean really incredible. I have a feeling many of
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  Speaker 1: you already know her, already love her, and I think
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  Speaker 1: in this conversation you'll see a different side of her.
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  Speaker 1: One of the best parts about interviewing people who are
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  Speaker 1: the best at what they do is learning about the
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  Speaker 1: people that inspire them. It makes me think of this
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  Speaker 1: viral clip that I've seen of mister Rogers. Yes, that
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  Speaker 1: mister the children's TV host. This clip will never not
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  Speaker 1: make me cry. It's from his speech at the nineteen
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  Speaker 1: ninety seven Emmy Awards. He's accepting a Lifetime Achievement award,
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  Speaker 1: and instead of taking the moment to bask in the spotlight,
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  Speaker 1: he makes it, in true mister Rogers' fashion, all about
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  Speaker 1: the people watching.
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  Speaker 2: All of us have special ones who have loved us
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  Speaker 2: into being. Would you just take along with me ten
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  Speaker 2: seconds to think of the people who have helped you
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  Speaker 2: become who you are those who have cared about you
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  Speaker 2: and wanted what was best for you in life. Ten
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  Speaker 2: seconds of silence. I'll watch the time.
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  Speaker 1: The camera cuts to the crowd and a few teary
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  Speaker 1: eyed celebs in the moment of reflection, a reminder that
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  Speaker 1: none of us achieve anything alone. Elaine Welterroth is here today.
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  Speaker 1: She's a New York Times Best seene author, award winning journalist, producer,
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  Speaker 1: and former editor in chief of Team Vogue. She's only
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  Speaker 1: the second person of color to hold that title in
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  Speaker 1: Conde nasts one hundred and seven year history. If you've
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  Speaker 1: ever seen her on screen, you know she's a light.
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  Speaker 1: Elaine has done countless interviews over the years, but I've
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  Speaker 1: never heard her be as vulnerable as she is today.
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  Speaker 3: I did recognize that I have a perfectionist wound, like
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  Speaker 3: because certain things in my childhood were out of my
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  Speaker 3: control and made me feel unsafe. The way that I
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  Speaker 3: feel safe is by controlling everything.
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  Speaker 1: Our conversation is a good snapshot of the forces that
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  Speaker 1: drive us, the good and the complicated, the ones we
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  Speaker 1: don't often see in someone's shiny story on Instagram. Today,
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  Speaker 1: Elaine shares for the first time some of the struggles
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  Speaker 1: that nearly knocked her off course, including a relationship with
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  Speaker 1: a man that she thought was her endgame until it
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  Speaker 1: all all came crashing down.
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  Speaker 3: This relationship shattered me. It shattered me when I recognized
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  Speaker 3: this is not who I thought he was.
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  Speaker 1: She talks about the transformative power of love.
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  Speaker 3: Having someone who can see you through, like can watch
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  Speaker 3: you and cheer you on on, like when you're in
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  Speaker 3: the light and like in the spotlight and being applauded,
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  Speaker 3: and somebody who can like walk with you through those
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  Speaker 3: like really dark valleys and like still see the light
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  Speaker 3: in you and like still amplify it and create space
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  Speaker 3: for it, like man.
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  Speaker 1: And why sometimes when everything feels dark, you have no
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  Speaker 1: choice but to turn inwards for the light. So Elaine
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  Speaker 1: means ray of light. You keep mentioning that the light
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  Speaker 1: came through when you wrote this book, and I.
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  Speaker 3: Write that in my book. I'm like, how'd you know that?
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  Speaker 1: I looked it up?
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  Speaker 3: You did look it up.
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  Speaker 1: I love that I'm a dork, and I love the
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  Speaker 1: etymology of words.
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  Speaker 3: So do I you do? I do? I can't believe
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  Speaker 3: you looked I'm like, the only reason I know that
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  Speaker 3: is because My mom used to give us an Easter
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  Speaker 3: egg basket with like our name cards in there, and
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  Speaker 3: it would and it said it said that, but I
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  Speaker 3: thought it was like just the thing my mom made
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  Speaker 3: up or I don't know you.
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  Speaker 1: Talk about you say that I learned to love who
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  Speaker 1: I am even if parts were forged by fire. And
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  Speaker 1: she called it the welter off fire. Yeah, which like
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  Speaker 1: the light and the fire kind of But you have
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  Speaker 1: that in you. It's so beautiful.
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  Speaker 3: Thank you. I see it in you too. I think
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  Speaker 3: you too.
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  Speaker 1: Thank you.
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  Speaker 3: You know it when you see it, and I do
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  Speaker 3: think like light attracts light for sure.
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  Speaker 1: Thank you. So your book I love dedications. Do you
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  Speaker 1: like book dedications?
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  Speaker 3: Do you love dedications? I haven't looked at my book
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  Speaker 3: in so long. This is going to be really.
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  Speaker 1: Care you can hold it for a second.
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  Speaker 3: Oh my gosh.
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  Speaker 1: So you write for every girl who aspires to be
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  Speaker 1: great and every woman who helped me realize we already
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  Speaker 1: possess the greatness we seek. What does greatness mean to you?
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  Speaker 3: Ooh, that's a really good question. I think there's a
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  Speaker 3: big heart part of being human that makes you want
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  Speaker 3: to fulfill your purpose. And I think that we all
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  Speaker 3: were born with a purpose, multiple purposes, and that's the
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  Speaker 3: part I wish we talked about more. You know, we
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  Speaker 3: always talk about purpose as though it's singular, like you're
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  Speaker 3: put here to do one thing, when really we're multifaceted
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  Speaker 3: and we're meant to do many things. And I think
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  Speaker 3: the more that I've surrendered to that, the more purpose
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  Speaker 3: I have felt in the many things that I do
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  Speaker 3: and have done, including motherhood by the way. So I
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  Speaker 3: think that I guess greatness comes back to sort of innate,
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  Speaker 3: like an innate sense of purpose and this desire to
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  Speaker 3: fulfill that purpose. And so I think you know when
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  Speaker 3: you're on the path to greatness, when you feel like
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  Speaker 3: you're heading toward the sense of fulfillment of potential. I
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  Speaker 3: think we all feel potential, like we feel the spark
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  Speaker 3: and we feel like this excitement or enthusiasm or this
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  Speaker 3: rush when we're engaging in something specific to our purpose.
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  Speaker 3: And I think we feel that, and I think we
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  Speaker 3: can hone that we can choose to spend more time
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  Speaker 3: with it. You know, it's a privilege for a lot
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  Speaker 3: of people to be able to yeah, develop that, but
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  Speaker 3: it's time. It takes time, it takes investment, it takes support,
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  Speaker 3: takes community, It takes so much to be able to
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  Speaker 3: like live within your greatness and expand that. But I think, yeah,
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  Speaker 3: I think it comes down to potential and purpose and
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  Speaker 3: then ambition. And the ambition part I can't really say
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  Speaker 3: if that is something that is that you're born with
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  Speaker 3: or if it's nurtured, Like I don't know if that's
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  Speaker 3: nature or nurture. I think that it's I think that
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  Speaker 3: it's something you're born with, and then I think you
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  Speaker 3: can I think it can also be something that is
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  Speaker 3: modeled for you that can inspire you.
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  Speaker 1: But you have to have like you have to have it,
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  Speaker 1: you know, Vire, the Welter off fire, you gotta have it.
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  Speaker 3: I think you have to. There's some element of it
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  Speaker 3: that I can get to be born with.
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  Speaker 1: Will you talk about growing up in this small town
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  Speaker 1: in Newark, California and you're just dreaming of this big life.
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  Speaker 1: I know that sounds so cliche for me to never
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  Speaker 1: have heard of before, but I felt so in tune
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  Speaker 1: with that. I just was like, I grew up in
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  Speaker 1: Chicago and I just wanted a big life. I've been
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  Speaker 1: after it ever since. Does it feel the way you
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  Speaker 1: wanted it.
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  Speaker 3: To absolutely really absolutely yeah, it does. I feel like
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  Speaker 3: I don't know that it was exactly what I pictured then, yeah,
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  Speaker 3: you know, because then I was informed by like lifestyles
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  Speaker 3: of the rich and famous and like MTV Cribs and
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  Speaker 3: like Mariah in the bathtub, like you know, it's to
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  Speaker 3: being her champion and being so extra Like I think
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  Speaker 3: like my childhood imagination was running wild with what that
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  Speaker 3: looked like. But I think in terms of like that
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  Speaker 3: feeling and just not feeling stuck and not feeling like
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  Speaker 3: boxed in or like I'm surrounded by small minded people
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  Speaker 3: in a small town, I mean, like I think that
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  Speaker 3: for me felt restrictive or the idea that everybody around
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  Speaker 3: me is living the same life. Do you feel like
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  Speaker 3: you're living the big life that you were imagining.
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  Speaker 1: I think I'm still in the mountain climbing phase in
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  Speaker 1: some ways, Like I think it probably looks that way
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  Speaker 1: on Instagram that I'm living it. But I like poured
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  Speaker 1: so much into the podcast. I made a card deck
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  Speaker 1: I think I'm building.
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  Speaker 3: I really love that you use the mountain climbing metaphor
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  Speaker 3: because I do think like at each summit you reach,
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  Speaker 3: eventually you kind of like camp out and you can
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  Speaker 3: see the next horizon, but it's a great view. From there.
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  Speaker 3: You know that you have more to work towards, but
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  Speaker 3: you can see how far you came, and you have
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  Speaker 3: a minute to kind of like assess what tools do
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  Speaker 3: I need to reach the next summit and which do
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  Speaker 3: I leave here to me. That's the most important part
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  Speaker 3: I think that no one talks about when it comes
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  Speaker 3: to like this mountain climbing thing or this hustling towards
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  Speaker 3: your dreams thing. It's the tools that you use to
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: get where you are are not the same tools that
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  Speaker 3: you need to get where you're going. So you have
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  Speaker 3: to like you have to actually enjoy when you summit,
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  Speaker 3: if that's the right way to use the term. As
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  Speaker 3: a culture, we don't in this like grind hustle culture
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  Speaker 3: or whatever. We're not like we're not encouraged to celebrate
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  Speaker 3: our little winds. So you just kind of always feel
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  Speaker 3: like you're mountain climbing and you feel like you're never
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  Speaker 3: getting high enough or where you're wanting to go. But
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  Speaker 3: if you make a out of celebrating your small wins
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  Speaker 3: and like taking that moment to reflect, like damn, I
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  Speaker 3: just did that, Like look how far I came.
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  Speaker 1: You celebrate now I do.
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  Speaker 3: I do, I do. I didn't before and I do now,
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  Speaker 3: And I think it makes my It makes the journey
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  Speaker 3: more joyful. You know, you've probably summitted so many times
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  Speaker 3: and you just kept going right on past it and
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  Speaker 3: not even recognizing it, you know, But I think, like man,
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  Speaker 3: when you really stop and be like, damn, I look
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  Speaker 3: how far I came. And it also makes sure that
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  Speaker 3: you are not like burdened with these tools and weapons
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  Speaker 3: sometimes that you that are weighing you down, that you
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: needed to get where you are, but you don't need
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: them to go where you're headed next. And so having
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: a baby forced me to take a beat and to
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: offload and to reflect.
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  Speaker 1: And I think you're better for it.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, one thousand percent. One thousand percent. And so I
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  Speaker 3: think I enjoy like I can appreciate the bigness of
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  Speaker 3: my life and the wonder of it all, and I
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  Speaker 3: can recognize how God has been all up in it
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  Speaker 3: the whole time because of those moments of slow down.
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  Speaker 3: And for me, I don't think everyone's pregnancy is as
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: like hard as mine was, but mine. I think I
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: also think like everything happens for a reason. So for me,
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: I think I was like forced to slow down. Yeah,
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  Speaker 3: and it was really hard for me mentally because I
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  Speaker 3: am a mountain climber. I'm like, we got we got
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: summons to hit, like we got to go, you know,
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  Speaker 3: but like it like forces me to slow down. And
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: and I've like built a life, not just a career
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  Speaker 3: a career, I've built a life. And that am like
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: really proud. Isn't even the words like intrinsically satisfied with? That?
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  Speaker 1: Seemed really peaceful when you walked in.
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  Speaker 3: Really Yeah, well I did just get back from Mexico
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: and I was swimming yesterday my baby. But yeah, I
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  Speaker 3: think I do. But I think in this stage of
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  Speaker 3: my life, I think I do feel more peaceful.
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  Speaker 1: It's really cool.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: So your book is called more Than Enough. Yeah, I
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: think we all struggle with the feelings of enoughness, maybe daily,
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: maybe weekly. When was the last time that you were
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: battling it?
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: You know? What I struggle more with is too muchness?
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  Speaker 1: Oh no, I would have never guessed that. So who
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: told you you were too much?
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: I feel like so when I say that right now,
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: what I'm talking I've heard that in my career. I
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: mean I read about it in my book, Like I
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: think black women, women of color who are big and
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: want a big life and take up space in the room,
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: you're often told in overt and in subtle ways to shrink,
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: to tone it down. And I've literally been told to
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: my face in a promotion in a like it was
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  Speaker 3: like such a weird moment. It was such a juxtav
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: There was such a juxtaposition cause I'm like getting like
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: a promotion and also being tone j told to tone
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: it down, And that was like such a weird paradox
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  Speaker 3: that I think represents what it is to be a
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  Speaker 3: woman of color. Yeah, striving, advancing, taking up space and
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  Speaker 3: in some ways making other people uncomfortable in the process unintentionally.
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  Speaker 3: And so I think that I have struggled with both
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  Speaker 3: feeling not enough or like I'm doing this somehow wrong
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  Speaker 3: in cause there's some way that it's somehow rubbing somebody wrong.
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  Speaker 3: I'm just being true to myself, though, And how is
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: so how do I what? What's that you're asking me
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  Speaker 3: to compromise? Like who I am?
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  Speaker 1: There's also this double bind that pisses me off because
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: I think that what got you to that place was
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: all of the courage and bigness. Yeah, and then you
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: get to that place.
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  Speaker 3: Like yeah, just calming down a little bit. Yeah Yeah,
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  Speaker 3: so that that thing you're talking about, I feel like
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  Speaker 3: I've experienced that and like metabolized that, internalized that for
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: my whole career. So then you get the Then you
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: get the like like we said, you're now you're too much.
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  Speaker 3: It's like you you struggle with am I enough, You overcompensate,
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  Speaker 3: you find your way of you know, to succeed anyway,
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  Speaker 3: and then you're told you're too much, You're too loud,
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  Speaker 3: You're you know, you're too ambitious, You're you're taking up
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: too much space, like and you just feel like what
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: am I supposed to do? Like I'm just trying to
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  Speaker 3: live I've heard lived my dream. I'm just trying trying
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: to get my little American dream on like everybody else.
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  Speaker 3: But but I think now I'm I'm like in a
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: place where I think a lot about capacity, and I
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: I think I have a big capacity for a lot
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  Speaker 3: of things and for love, for listening, for like a lot.
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: I have a lot of empathy. I have a lot
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  Speaker 3: of big emotions, and so I think sometimes I feel
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: like maybe my capacity is too much, such that I'm
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: expecting everyone to match my capacity in ways that sometimes
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: leave me feeling like I'm too much, like I'm too
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: like I care too much, like I love too much,
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: like I expect too much, Like I'm more so thinking
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: about this in the context of frankly, if I can
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: be really candid honest here, friendship really Yeah, Yeah, I
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: feel like I've always been so lucky in friendship in
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: the sense that I've had a ton of really close
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: friends at every stage of my life, and I collect
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: my people like I don't let them go, and I think,
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: there it's a hard thing to move through life, like
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: holding on to all these bonds and wanting them to
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: like remain the same when everything else is changing. And
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: so I I think that, yeah, if anything, I'm I
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: think I find myself in inflection points where like I'm
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: mountain climbing and I want I want to feel as
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: connected to all my people at every summit, and I
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: want to feel like we're like moving together. And sometimes
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: even though I know my friends are like a call
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: away or a text away, and I know they're the
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: love has never changed, but the dynamics change, and the
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: time together it's like few and far between, and the
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: connections get looser. And I think most adults probably expect
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: that change and expect like the loosening of the connections
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: and expect, but like I think, for me, my capacity
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: is so big, and I want and I want those
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: connections to remain the same, and I want, like I'm
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: willing to poort in and I want you to do
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: the same, and I and like I sometimes I end
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: up feeling disappointed, and I'm reminded maybe it's me, like
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: maybe I'm expecting too much out of like this world
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: and other people and you know, and so's if anything
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: like that's kind of where I'm at. It's a completely
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: different place than I think where I was talking about
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: it here, which was more about I think, like where
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: I was when I was writing this book was more
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: about like identity, and it's more about finding myself and
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: my anchors.
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: Did you always value community the way you do now?
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah? I have always valued community a lot, I think,
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: but I also couldn't prioritize it as much when I
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: was mountain climbing. I love, We're going to keep going
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: back to this because I love it. But I feel
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: like when I was like really hardcore doing the work,
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: the solo work of climbing my first and second like
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: big mountains, Like a lot of that work you have
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: to do alone.
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: And I think even your parents don't get it.
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: I think you're absolutely right as a parent now though
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: I feel for my parents in a different way. When
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: my child goes down into the world and starts mountain
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: climbing and forgets to call me, I like, forgets to
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: come home and doesn't value coming home as much as
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: they used to, Like I am going to feel that
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: on a different level, Like I get my mom and
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: my dad now, like longing for me and like wishing
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: that I prioritized like those relationships, those family core relationships
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: a little bit more. But it's a necessary part of
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: the journey, you know. And so anyway, I feel community
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: has always been really important. I've always found ways to
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: pour into my community and to nurture it. But I
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: think I was an absent friend throughout a lot of
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: my probably twenties and even early thirties. Like I was
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: present when I was with you, and if you needed me,
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: I'm the one you call at three am. Like I
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: like to think of myself as like the deep end friend.
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: Why you're like that.
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: Like, I'm probably not going to be in the shallow
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: waters with you, Like you got that you don't need
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: me to navigate those waters when you hit like the
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: deep end, like that's where I am, and I'll meet
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: you in your deep end. I'll be there for you,
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: and I will hold you, i will guide you back
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: to the shallow waters. I've always been that, but I
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: I think I haven't been as present for like the
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: day to day things and like doing life with my friends,
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: and I think there's something to be said for those connections.
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: The downside of being the deep end friend is that
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: you start to feel over time like this distance because
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: you aren't there in the shallow end for the everyday stuff,
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: the like you know, those like phone calls when you're
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: not talking about anything. So whatever road you choose.
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: You know, because you can't choose both, it's very difficult.
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: There was a woman I interviewed that said we went
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: to launch after the interview and she said, you're gonna
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: have to decide if you want purpose or happiness. And
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: I was like, huh, why can't purpose brings me happiness?
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: And she was like not as you get older, like
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: it'll come back around in your fifties and sixties, but
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: like in the mountain climbing years.
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: Wow, in the mountain climbing years, I have to I'm
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: going to be thinking about that. Do you believe that now?
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: Is that true for you?
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: I see what she's saying, Yeah, because I feel similar
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: to you. I'm the deep end friend and I miss
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: out on a lot of laughs and fun, but I
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: am fueled by something that I can't put my finger on.
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And you can't ignore that and you can't Yeah, no,
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: you shouldn't. I just think that, like there are different
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: reasons for each season, you know. Yeah, And so when
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: you are in your grind phase, your mountain climbing phase,
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: where you really have to be solo, and you are, like,
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: you know, traversing a vertical cliff, like you you have
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: to rely on yourself to like make it, and no
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: one else is going to get you where you're trying
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: to go. No one else is going to save you.
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: There is no net. It's like you versus you, and
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: that that journey, that solo journey is so worthwhile. And
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: I think the best things that you will put out
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: in this world will require that type of solo journeying.
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: I also think there is a role for community and
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: the things that you make in order for them to
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: go the farthest, you need to make them in community.
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: You need to share them like and nurture with a
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: community that you're nurturing. So like I do, there's it's all.
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: It's all seasonal. I just think you have to be
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: in tune enough to know what season you're in and
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: to honor that. Do you know what I mean?
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: I entirely agree there's a season for everything, for family,
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: for friends, and kind of like take stock and hope
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: that you're feeding what you need at that moment and
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: giving other people what they need.
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, if you're just tuning in, let me catch you up.
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: So a month ago, I was traveling a lot and
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: really not feeling my healthiest and then I found Green
• 25:57
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• 26:00
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• 26:03
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• 26:06
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• 26:17
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• 26:20
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• 26:26
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• 26:29
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• 26:43
  Speaker 1: really sets Green Chef apart, though, is their commitment to
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• 27:49
  Speaker 1: I think part of your story that people don't know
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: if they haven't read your book, is that you hustled.
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: I think they see your life on Instagram and think
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: she did it, and they don't know that you lived
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: in this shitty apartment in Bushway and that your mail
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: dropped off that like if you had an air mattress.
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you were making like below minimum wage at
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: some of these magazines you were working at. Does any
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: of that stay with you?
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: Are you kidding? Absolutely? That is like that is who
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: I am, Like, actually, I don't even know. I'm like wow,
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: people think that that's a revelation to me. I'm real.
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: People look at that and my Instagram and.
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: Think that was so funny.
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: That's wold because anybody who knows me. And also like I,
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: like I said, I hold on to my friends, So
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: a lot of my people knew me when and they're like, yo,
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: that girl was in the office until after midnight all
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: the time, that girl like I. They remember when I
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: would come to the office with literally stacks of peanut
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: burn jelly sandwiches, and then throughout the day I would
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: just like go through them. That was my breakfast, lunch,
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: and dinner. I didn't have time to go get lunch,
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: nor did I have the mother I need to go
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: pay for lunch. And when I did have like a
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: little wind to celebrate my friend Natalie Manuel, when we
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: were interning together that first summer, we would meet up
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: and we would literally share a sandwich that costs probably
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: like five dollars, and we would split it in half
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: and like split the cost and eat that on the
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: way back to our office. And that was like our
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: like we went out for lunch today, we were celebrating
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: something like what I need people to understand first of all,
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: is that And now I'm going to sound like an
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: old auntie, but like I started my career at the
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: beginning of the recession, which is not very dissimilar to
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: this moment, It's like people were losing their jobs every day,
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: and I was so prepared every day I walked into
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: work for it to be my last, that I didn't
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: spend any of my money. I worked so hard to
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: make sure that, like it wouldn't be on me. If
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: I'm losing my job, it's because of some outside force.
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: But like I said yes to everything. I put my
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: nose down and I just was all about adding value,
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: period And there was no job that was too small.
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: And I worked like that even when I was the
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: editor in chief of teen Vogue, I was still like
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: there until midnight. And I didn't have very good boundaries
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: and I did not have like a work life balance.
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: I didn't even know what that was. And it was
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: worth it. And now we're in a place where we're
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: trying to find peace, We're trying to find balance, We're
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: trying to find harmony while also finding purpose in our
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: lives and doing work that matters in the world. And
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: that is that is the focus of my next book.
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: That is what I'm working on. Are you writing I
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: am writing.
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: My next oh late? Now?
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: When people say, like Beyonce has the same amount of
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: hours as you do, that's how I feel about you.
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: I don't understand how.
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: I will be honest with you.
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: I am amazing.
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: I am still working on finding my workflow in terms
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: of making space for this book writing process. Like this book,
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: I was like, I am shutting down my life. I
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: am saying no to everything, and for the next six months, y'all,
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: I'm going to see me here for me, like I
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: was willing to shut everything off to get this done.
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: It was urgent, like this book was coming out of
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: my pores. It was it was like, and I'm so grateful, Like,
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: oh God, if I never feel that way again, I'm
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: so grateful that I felt that. I felt that more
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: than once in my life. The urgency of the call
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: on your life, like that urgency is a godsend. If
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: you know what you were put here to do, and
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: you know that you were put here to do it
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: in this moment, like such a time as this, you
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: have no other choice. You have to make room in
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: your life to get it done and get it out
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: of you. That's the way this book came to me,
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: Like it hit me. It was so clear to me.
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: I left my job, my former dream job, and part
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: of what I knew I had to do. Was this.
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: I talk a lot about like zone of genius, and.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: Is that like flow state.
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: It's a little bit different in the sense that, like
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: I think, once you're in your zone of genius, you
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: experience a flow state, but I think identifying your zone
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: of genius happens first. And to me, the way I
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: think about zone of genius is that which only you
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: can do, cool, that which only you can do. No
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: one else can write your book for you. No one
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: else can sit here and build this podcast empire that
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: you're building, like no one else can write these questions.
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: There's a certain magic that you bring in this capacity.
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: And there are a million other things you could be
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: doing that you'd be great at too, but other people
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: could do those things. So I evaluated incoming opportunities through
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: that lens. The energy that I'm in now is like
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: say yes to what feels good and what feels most valuable,
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: the highest use of me in this moment. And I've
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: had a lot of opportunities thank God, like thank God
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: that have come to me that I feel worthwhile I
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: love breaking down false binaries, like I think many women,
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: ambitious women are on this spectrum right and it's like
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: what's going to win today? Even the name of your podcast,
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: it's so relevant to the mission of and the heart
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: and soul of teen Vogue. Like when when I was
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: at teen Vogue, we were all about like, you don't
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: have to just be one thing, and you can find
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: the substance in the superficial. You can be both pretty
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: and smart. You can be about fashion and politics like
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: you are multifaceted. We all are, And like, why don't
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: we create more room for intersections? Why don't we create
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: more opportunity to have nuanced conversations where all of it matters,
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: all of it's relevant, all of it has a place,
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: And I do think So I'm like, I'm like, let's
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: go there, you know what I mean?
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: Like it, Yeah, I appreciate that. What I really was
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: taken by with your book was that you made room
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: for the mess, Like when you said, like you're in
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: for all.
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: Of it, there was a mess in there, yeah, for sure,
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: but you.
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: Don't talk about that elsewhere. You saved it for this yeah,
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: which I really loved. There were rough relationships boyfriends, there
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: were tough moments at work. You let it all go
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: in the book. So I want to bring it back
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: to the fact that I think you're a light worker.
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: Ava Duverne wrote the forward in your book, and she said,
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: nothing bad ever happens to me. It's all to learn
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: and grow when you are so full of light. I'm
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: sure you think of everything as positive. You can learn
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: from this. There's a spin on.
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: It, optimism. Yeah, right.
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: The hard stuff mm hm, the messy stuff you wrote
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: about in your book. How do you get through those.
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: Moments faith and you find your anchors?
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: I think for me, I found like my mom has
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: been an anchor for me throughout every hard, dark part
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: of my story. Why am I getting emotional just like
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: thinking about that. She has been an anchor in my
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: life in every way. And my husband, My husband's my
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: best friend. And that sounds so cliche, but m having
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: someone who can see you through, like can watch you
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: and cheer you on on, like when you're in the
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: light and like in the spotlight and being applauded, and
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: somebody who can like walk with you through those like
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: really dark valleys and like still see the light in
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: you and like still amplify it and create space for it. Like, man,
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: those those are people you hold on too, And those
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: are people that you've nurtured and invest in and keep
• 36:06
  Speaker 3: by your side. I feel like I've been super blessed
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: in my life. I've been the beneficiary of like incredible
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: love and grace and support. And that's the only way
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: that I have like navigated some of some of the
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: stuff that's really hurt me, and I've been able to
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: alchemize it into light.
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: Why'd you get emotional talk?
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: I don't know, because my mom is the best person ever.
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: She's just she's been through so much and she like
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: it doesn't make sense when you look at her and
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: you see how much joy and light and love that
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: is just flooding her, and like over you just get
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: caught in the overflow of it and you're just like,
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: it doesn't make sense that you have come through all
• 37:01
  Speaker 3: of this and you still are like this radiant beam
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: of light and you have so much light to give.
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: It's like it's just she's like a miracle. She's really
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: a miracle and so and she's just always been a
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: positive force in my life, and I'm just so grateful
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: for her. I don't know. I think I'm probably even
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: more grateful for her now that I'm a mom, you know,
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: I think our relationship has just like evolved even more,
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: and I think my perspective has shifted such that I
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: can really I mean like a mother's love.
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: Well, she has all these great phrases in the book.
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, my book is really about my mom, like anything
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: good about me or like anything that maybe drew you
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: to my work. Man, the best of it comes from her,
• 37:46
  Speaker 3: like she's the source. I didn't realize this of course,
• 37:49
  Speaker 3: like going into the book writing process, but like in
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: the end, when I reflected on the book, I was like, man,
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: one of like the greatest legacy this book will have
• 38:01
  Speaker 3: is that I was able to multiply my mother's mothering
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: for so many people who didn't have moms like that.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: So like you're a ebony and you are really gutsy
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: and you asked for this raise. Mm hmm was that
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: your mom's voice?
• 38:17
  Speaker 3: No, what's funny is my mom and I are different
• 38:19
  Speaker 3: in some way, like we're I think, like there's a
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: lot that I get from my mom, Like the best
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: parts of me probably are my mom. But then there's
• 38:29
  Speaker 3: an intensity to me and like a fire and like
• 38:32
  Speaker 3: a courage and maybe even like a When I reflect
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: on some of these earlier stories from my career, I'm like,
• 38:39
  Speaker 3: who was that girl? Like she was like so relentless
• 38:43
  Speaker 3: and ambitious and just like by any means necessary, like
• 38:47
  Speaker 3: what I want is going to happen, you know, and
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: that that I was born with. I didn't really get
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: that from I didn't inherit that from my mom. So
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: there is a part of her that will kind of
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: like speak truth to power, like fight the man, and
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: you know.
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: She feels it.
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but she's also like a survivalist and like, so
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: when I had this bright idea when I was like
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: twenty one to you know, in the middle of a recession,
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: when everyone's losing their jobs and I am some intern,
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: lowly intern at Ebony magazine, which is already going through
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: a lot of financial you know, troubles, and you know,
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: people are losing their jobs very much. So then I
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: felt like, oh my god, it's almost like embarrassing looking
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: back at that story that like I had the audacity
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: yeah to say I.
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: Think it's awesome.
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: I'm gonna go and ask for this raise. Okay, so
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: for contact for people who do not know do not
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: know what we're talking about. I started as an intern
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: for ten dollars an hour, and it was a three
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: month summer internship. At the end of the summer, no
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: one told me to leave, so I didn't leave. I
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: just kept coming back and and I kept getting paychecks.
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: So I was like, this, this is working, you know.
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: I just didn't say anything. I just kept showing up.
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: I kept saying yes, I kept taking on more responsibility.
• 40:11
  Speaker 3: And months went by, and meanwhile, the you know interns
• 40:16
  Speaker 3: across the street at time INCU were working for like
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: the sexier magazines at the time, including the magazine that
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: was originally my dream magazine internship job. They all were
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: released at the end of the summer and none of
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: them got jobs. It was the recession, so they couldn't
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: afford they didn't have the headcount. So I was like
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: on a lifeboat. Okay, across the street at this like
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: family run, black owned company that the rest of the
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: industry kind of put their nose up at. I was
• 40:44
  Speaker 3: so grateful to be there, and I was working really hard.
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: Was in the trenches. We had no resources, we had
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: no access. You had to fight for every single thing.
• 40:53
  Speaker 3: And I thought, okay, well, now it's been months, I'm
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: still here. I'm doing like six jobs by myself. Maybe
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: I can make like a little bit more money. I'm
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: making ten dollars an hour, maybe I can make like
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: twenty dollars an hour. And I literally do not know
• 41:14
  Speaker 3: what gave me the audacity to have that thought, let
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: alone go verbalize that thought to my boss.
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: Well, and then not show up to work the next
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: day to like really be like I mean this, Yeah,
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: to really like put my foot down like it's amazing.
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: I asked my boss, Yeah, couldn't. We had this conversation,
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: And the funny thing is that when she raised the
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: question about giving me a little raise with HR, they
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: were like, how was this girl still even here?
• 41:42
  Speaker 4: Like this internship was over like months ago, like homegirls
• 41:45
  Speaker 4: should have been back home. But at that point I
• 41:47
  Speaker 4: had been so focused on like adding value that I
• 41:49
  Speaker 4: actually did add enough value that it was in her favor,
• 41:53
  Speaker 4: my boss's favor to figure out how to keep me right.
• 41:56
  Speaker 4: So she fought for me, and she pushed back, and
• 42:00
  Speaker 4: she asked them for, you know, to make an exception,
• 42:03
  Speaker 4: to try to find a few extra coins scrape together
• 42:06
  Speaker 4: to give to me, and she I think she came
• 42:10
  Speaker 4: back with fifteen, but I knew somehow, and I don't
• 42:14
  Speaker 4: recommend this. By the way, This is not like a
• 42:16
  Speaker 4: This is not necessarily like a glory story. This is
• 42:18
  Speaker 4: just a story of a thing that happened and I
• 42:21
  Speaker 4: got lucky, but it may you may not get lucky
• 42:23
  Speaker 4: if you do the same thing.
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: So I'm not necessarily pitching this is a great idea.
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: But I did.
• 42:27
  Speaker 3: I did feel that I brought more value than twelve
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: dollars an out ten or twelve dollars an hour, and
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: I needed to survive, and what I asked for was twenty.
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: And this was, by the way, like no health insurance,
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: like I would have to save for that, I'd have
• 42:45
  Speaker 3: to pay for my own taxes, so I was accounting
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: for all of that, and they needed to what I
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: needed to live and they told me no, And I said, well,
• 42:55
  Speaker 3: something to the effect of, I'll give you a day
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: to think about it. I'm not coming in tomorrow. I'm
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: just gonna give you a day to think about this.
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: And it's wild.
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: It is.
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: I mean, I feel embarrassed even saying this, But I
• 43:11
  Speaker 3: did actually not come in the next day. I told
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: my mom on the train. I remember I was I
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: was waiting for my train and I told my mom,
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: and I think she probably thought I was crazy. But
• 43:23
  Speaker 3: once I had made up my mind, she supported it.
• 43:27
  Speaker 3: I think she valued that I included her enough to
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: give me whatever response was going to help me make
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: my own decision. And then I made my decision. She
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: made me feel supported, and then I went back the
• 43:39
  Speaker 3: next day scared to death, Like scared to death. I remember,
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: I was actually shaking, my mouth was dry. I was like,
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: for sure, I'm fired, Like for sure, like I am,
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: I'm insane. I shouldn't have done that, Like she's gonna
• 43:53
  Speaker 3: hate me. What was I thinking? And I walk in
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: her office and I try to have like small talk
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: and she's like, sit down, we need to talk. And
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: I was like, here it goes, here's happening.
• 44:03
  Speaker 4: Oh my god, I'm gonna lose my job before I
• 44:05
  Speaker 4: even technically got it, Like I technically don't even have
• 44:08
  Speaker 4: this job right now that I'm like fighting for a
• 44:10
  Speaker 4: raise on who And.
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: She just says, what you did yesterday?
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: Was very smart with that face because you got intense.
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: Oh but you just said that so oh yeah. When
• 44:25
  Speaker 3: she said what you did yesterday, I.
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: Was like, yeah, it's over, it's over.
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: It's over, Like what I did yesterday. I thought she
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: was gonna say was unacceptable. Like I thought I was
• 44:35
  Speaker 3: gonna get reamed. Yeah, because there was the pregnant pause.
• 44:38
  Speaker 3: She just like left me hanging for a moment, but
• 44:40
  Speaker 3: she said, what you did yesterday, it's very smart, was
• 44:43
  Speaker 3: very smart, and it gave me the leverage to go
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: back to them to say, if we do not find
• 44:51
  Speaker 3: this money, we will lose her. If we lose her,
• 44:54
  Speaker 3: I do not have support in this New York office,
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: and I cannot do my job without proper So we
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: have to find it and we need to make this good.
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: And so we have made an exception. You will get
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: twenty dollars an hour, and you will not get insurance
• 45:14
  Speaker 3: and you will not come in my office again and
• 45:15
  Speaker 3: ask me for anything else for the foreseeable future. And
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: you will not do this again. Yeah, Like she's like,
• 45:21
  Speaker 3: let's be clear, like this was smart time, and it
• 45:25
  Speaker 3: was a one time thing and it won't happen again.
• 45:28
  Speaker 3: So enjoy that little twenty dollars, you know, essentially, Yeah,
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: enjoy it because you won't be riding that out for
• 45:34
  Speaker 3: a while. And I did, And I'm so glad I
• 45:36
  Speaker 3: fought for myself in that moment in a way that worked.
• 45:39
  Speaker 3: By the grace of God because she was right. She
• 45:44
  Speaker 3: lost her job not very long after that, like maybe
• 45:47
  Speaker 3: within a year, and she was my anchor in that job.
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: She was my role model, she was my mentor, and
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: she lost her job and a whole new regime came in,
• 45:58
  Speaker 3: and I was hanging on by a thread and I
• 46:00
  Speaker 3: had to prove myself all over again, and so I
• 46:02
  Speaker 3: wasn't in a position to ask for more money for
• 46:05
  Speaker 3: like the rest of the time, I was basically there.
• 46:08
  Speaker 3: And I think this actually speaks to the moment that
• 46:09
  Speaker 3: we're in with all of these labor strikes happening right now,
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: you know, with like the Writer's Guild and SAG, which
• 46:16
  Speaker 3: I'm a part of. By the way, striking like, these
• 46:20
  Speaker 3: moments are so they're so fragile, and the way that
• 46:27
  Speaker 3: you navigate them is just it's really important, and you
• 46:33
  Speaker 3: have to be very strategic, and it's very risky and
• 46:37
  Speaker 3: a lot of times it doesn't always go your way.
• 46:41
  Speaker 3: Sometimes it will, but I think it is worth speaking up,
• 46:45
  Speaker 3: knowing your worth, fighting for your worth, but it doesn't
• 46:50
  Speaker 3: always go your way.
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: Will you end up having a lot of these moments,
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: as would I say a PA or like what was
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: your title?
• 46:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah, essentially in between the time that technically the internship
• 47:03
  Speaker 3: ended but everyone forgot to tell me and they forgot
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: about it, and the time that I asked for the raise,
• 47:08
  Speaker 3: Like in between that time, I just changed my title
• 47:11
  Speaker 3: on my email signature to production assistant, from like intern
• 47:15
  Speaker 3: to a production assistant, and then people started referring to
• 47:18
  Speaker 3: me as production assistant. Great, because I was doing that job.
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: Will you get on all these sets? And so you
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: talk about one in the book with Serena Williams. You
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: talk about how you saw this magazine cover with Alicia
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: Keys that like really just struck something in you. Now
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: that you're in rooms with people sometimes, have you been
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: able to have these full circle moments and communicate it
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: it all?
• 47:39
  Speaker 3: Oh, that's such a good question. You know what, I
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: have been in the moments with people where I'm recognizing
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: I'm having a full circle moment, but I have not
• 47:52
  Speaker 3: yet been able to articulate to people what it means.
• 47:57
  Speaker 3: I hope one day I get to. I have worked
• 47:59
  Speaker 3: with Williams in particular, who, like I did have this
• 48:03
  Speaker 3: completely like career shifting, career making moment when I was
• 48:08
  Speaker 3: an intern in the same job my very very first
• 48:11
  Speaker 3: shoot when I was assisting this boss, Harriet Cole, that
• 48:15
  Speaker 3: I was just referring to. Yeah, I was a cover
• 48:17
  Speaker 3: shoot with Serena Williams, and like I made this suggestion again,
• 48:22
  Speaker 3: like wow, who did I think I was? Oh my god,
• 48:25
  Speaker 3: the audacity. But I made, I whispered a suggestion, a
• 48:28
  Speaker 3: styling suggestion to my boss.
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: Well, they embraced using the cover that you suggested.
• 48:35
  Speaker 3: They did. Yeah. And so for me that was like
• 48:37
  Speaker 3: this really big, like triumphant moment as a young magazine editor.
• 48:42
  Speaker 3: Are you kidding me?
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: It's huge.
• 48:44
  Speaker 3: So then years later, I'm on Project Runway and who
• 48:48
  Speaker 3: is the guest judge for the finale sitting right next
• 48:51
  Speaker 3: to me? But Serena Williams. That is so cool and
• 48:54
  Speaker 3: I wanted so badly to tell her this whole entire story,
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: but the moment didn't prison I don't think I told
• 49:01
  Speaker 3: her the story, but I had the satisfaction of knowing, like, yo,
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: this is a full circle moment and if only she
• 49:07
  Speaker 3: knew the role that she played in helping me get
• 49:10
  Speaker 3: where I am, And like the validation of now sitting
• 49:13
  Speaker 3: next to her on this panel and talking about fashion
• 49:16
  Speaker 3: to like welcome her to our set and to talk
• 49:18
  Speaker 3: about style and fashion and something that I've honed since
• 49:24
  Speaker 3: that moment of helping to choose the swimsuit that ended
• 49:27
  Speaker 3: up on the cover that she was on, Like, it
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: was just such a beautiful moment.
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: You have really beautiful faith in the book. I think
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: it stemmed from your mom because she came from the church.
• 49:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure.
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: And yeah you would say, like when people would talk
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: about your dream job, h if they were like naysayers,
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: you would say, it's between me and God.
• 49:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I had to create a boundary for sure. I
• 49:47
  Speaker 3: think whenever you're like you know, and the thing that
• 49:53
  Speaker 3: the seed that you're planting, when it's just a seed
• 49:56
  Speaker 3: and it's fragile and like someone's fear can crush it,
• 50:00
  Speaker 3: you have to insulate it and protect it from from
• 50:04
  Speaker 3: anybody's projections and like negative energy. I really believe that
• 50:11
  Speaker 3: that is super important. I don't talk about my most
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: vulnerable like ideas or the things that I want the most.
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: I protect them the most. I don't talk about them
• 50:21
  Speaker 3: with just anybody. I only bring my little seedlings of
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: ideas to like my trusted inner circle. I really believe
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: that's important.
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: When do you get most of those seeds, I.
• 50:33
  Speaker 3: Get those ideas when I'm in conversation with people. Yeah,
• 50:39
  Speaker 3: when I'm in like deep end conversation with people, not
• 50:43
  Speaker 3: in the shallow and where we're just like you know,
• 50:46
  Speaker 3: small talk, Like I actually hate small talk so much.
• 50:49
  Speaker 3: I feel my life for it's like draining out of me,
• 50:52
  Speaker 3: and I think I'm just like wasting my time and
• 50:54
  Speaker 3: my energy. But when I'm really connecting with people and
• 50:59
  Speaker 3: I and they say something that I can literally see
• 51:02
  Speaker 3: as a poll quote, like I still have that magazine
• 51:04
  Speaker 3: editor mine, like once an editor, always an editor, and
• 51:07
  Speaker 3: so I'm always like I think my mind is always
• 51:09
  Speaker 3: like looking for the story and I can see the
• 51:12
  Speaker 3: poll quote or the headline, and I'm like, that is
• 51:15
  Speaker 3: something I want to write about later, that's a chapter
• 51:18
  Speaker 3: in the next book, or like that's something I just
• 51:21
  Speaker 3: want to sit with and ponder, or like I want
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: to interrogate that a little bit more like those conversations.
• 51:26
  Speaker 3: And I'm the kind of loser or crazy person. I'm
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: the kind of person that will find myself in conversation
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: with random strangers like I find you do, and I
• 51:39
  Speaker 3: get so much out of it. Like I know people
• 51:42
  Speaker 3: are weirded out by the idea of talking to strangers.
• 51:44
  Speaker 3: But I live for it like I live on a plane.
• 51:47
  Speaker 3: I'm always going back and forth between New York and
• 51:49
  Speaker 3: LA whoever I sit next to on the plane and
• 51:53
  Speaker 3: the plane Oh my god. I have an entire category
• 51:56
  Speaker 3: in my phone for plane friends. And then I have
• 51:58
  Speaker 3: a note section of my phone for play and friends,
• 52:00
  Speaker 3: and I write down the things that we talk about
• 52:02
  Speaker 3: and the things that like, the revelations that I have,
• 52:04
  Speaker 3: or when you're just open to conversations with random strangers,
• 52:09
  Speaker 3: you end up finding that we we have so much
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: more in common than we ever think. And I think
• 52:15
  Speaker 3: a lot of times we build worlds that look like
• 52:18
  Speaker 3: us in a lot of ways, like people who move
• 52:20
  Speaker 3: through the world with a lot of the same ideas,
• 52:22
  Speaker 3: who are around the same age or maybe around the
• 52:23
  Speaker 3: same from the same culture, socioeconomically, we're kind of like
• 52:28
  Speaker 3: in the same world. But when you're out in the
• 52:32
  Speaker 3: world and you just meet people happenstance, it like forges
• 52:35
  Speaker 3: these intergenerational bonds, and it just reminds me of how
• 52:38
  Speaker 3: healing it is when we connect with people who don't
• 52:42
  Speaker 3: look like us, who don't think like us, and like
• 52:45
  Speaker 3: how much that can expand our worldview and like make
• 52:51
  Speaker 3: us better. You know, I think it would be healing
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: for the world if we talk to strangers more.
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: There's this quote that you say in the book a
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: few times and was actually from a future husband who
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: didn't end up being future husbands. Thank g alert, thank god.
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: If you haven't read the book yet, read it and
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: you'll understand why.
• 53:09
  Speaker 3: Those are the juiciest chapters. By the way, they are
• 53:12
  Speaker 3: that people like never asked me in interviews, but on
• 53:14
  Speaker 3: the streets, that's all people want to talk about.
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: By the way, is like every one of my friends
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: that read your book only wants to talk about future Yes, oh,
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: because it's I think a lot of women have been
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: through a version of future husband in some way before
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: they meet somebody great. Yeah that he wasn't great in
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: his own way, but anyways, Yeah, he says, what's for
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: you can't be unfo you yet if you feel comfortable sharing,
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: I think it'd be really powerful for people to hear
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: an example of something that missed you that at the
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: moment felt life shattering and now you're like, thank God
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: for that reader action.
• 53:48
  Speaker 3: Gosh, oh, there's so many examples of that. But that
• 53:52
  Speaker 3: relationship is like number one, number one. No, A really
• 53:58
  Speaker 3: dodged a bullet with that one. Yeah, and wish him well,
• 54:03
  Speaker 3: by the way, I just have to acknowledge seriously, no
• 54:05
  Speaker 3: one has ever asked me about this part of my
• 54:07
  Speaker 3: book ever. Really, of all the interviews I've done over
• 54:10
  Speaker 3: the years, and like even the book tour, we never
• 54:13
  Speaker 3: talked about this part. It's always so like career focused
• 54:16
  Speaker 3: or you know, the mother angle, So it's it's like
• 54:21
  Speaker 3: fun to like talk about this is like the juicy part.
• 54:23
  Speaker 3: It really like you know, like the TV show version
• 54:26
  Speaker 3: of my of my book is like this, like this
• 54:28
  Speaker 3: is what where like because there's even more that I
• 54:31
  Speaker 3: didn't share in the book. But a time when when
• 54:34
  Speaker 3: like something missed me that missed me on purpose but
• 54:38
  Speaker 3: was crushing at the time, but gave me wings in
• 54:41
  Speaker 3: the aftermath. I would say, like that breakup. So in
• 54:44
  Speaker 3: my mid twenties, I was or no, in my early twenties,
• 54:47
  Speaker 3: my early twenties, I was dating this guy who was
• 54:49
  Speaker 3: like perfect on paper, like everything that Sex and the
• 54:54
  Speaker 3: City told me to desire in a man, you know
• 54:56
  Speaker 3: what I mean. Like it was like this is like
• 54:59
  Speaker 3: if I'm Carrie Bradshaw, this is my big and we're
• 55:01
  Speaker 3: riding off into the sunset, although we know how that
• 55:03
  Speaker 3: story ultimately ends up, it wasn't actually righting off into
• 55:07
  Speaker 3: the sunset for Carrie either Carry and Big, But yeah,
• 55:10
  Speaker 3: I think that, like I just saw the future with
• 55:18
  Speaker 3: this person immediately, and now in hindsight, I know, like
• 55:22
  Speaker 3: when you're fantasizing and like romanticizing a narrative around someone,
• 55:32
  Speaker 3: you're actually not falling in love with them, You're falling
• 55:35
  Speaker 3: in love with this fantasy. And so at the time
• 55:40
  Speaker 3: it felt very real though, like I really thought I
• 55:43
  Speaker 3: loved this person. I thought that they loved me, and
• 55:46
  Speaker 3: I thought that we were like a power couple, very successful,
• 55:51
  Speaker 3: very handsome, very charming, very very smart, and like made
• 55:58
  Speaker 3: me feel, especially in front of us other people, like
• 56:02
  Speaker 3: I was adored and loved, and behind closed doors though
• 56:08
  Speaker 3: that the energy was cold and it was really confusing
• 56:14
  Speaker 3: for me in ways it manipulated me and how I
• 56:19
  Speaker 3: felt about myself and like how I showed up in
• 56:21
  Speaker 3: the world, and I realized that I was shape shifting
• 56:26
  Speaker 3: to like appeal to this person's hot and cold ways
• 56:34
  Speaker 3: and like trying to get their approval and feel good enough.
• 56:39
  Speaker 3: And I think a lot of the enoughness part of
• 56:42
  Speaker 3: this book. I think I was like I was deep
• 56:45
  Speaker 3: in like navigating that around that time. I think we
• 56:50
  Speaker 3: all are, especially in our early twenties, and a lot
• 56:54
  Speaker 3: of times I think we give our power away to men,
• 56:59
  Speaker 3: to to titles, to things outside of us, to like
• 57:05
  Speaker 3: assign value to ourselves, you know, through other people, through
• 57:09
  Speaker 3: external things. And so I think I gave up a
• 57:14
  Speaker 3: lot of my power in this dynamic and and it
• 57:18
  Speaker 3: was sh It had a shrinking effect on me, and
• 57:21
  Speaker 3: my confidence was plummeting and my self esteem along with it,
• 57:27
  Speaker 3: and my light, Like I actually I appreciate when when
• 57:35
  Speaker 3: like you bring up like you know y that you
• 57:37
  Speaker 3: think of me as a light worker, and you bring
• 57:40
  Speaker 3: up like my name means ray of light. I think
• 57:43
  Speaker 3: that like my light is part of like that's part
• 57:48
  Speaker 3: of me. That's like my aura. That's like and when
• 57:51
  Speaker 3: I'm at my best, I think it's like big and bright.
• 57:55
  Speaker 3: And when I think when I when I'm not it
• 57:58
  Speaker 3: it dims. And I think it was really scary how
• 58:01
  Speaker 3: dim my life got within the context of this relationship.
• 58:05
  Speaker 3: And I think it takes a while to discern, like
• 58:10
  Speaker 3: what is the root of this, Like you know, I
• 58:11
  Speaker 3: think you become so you can quickly become so enmeshed
• 58:15
  Speaker 3: with someone that you can't really identify your ish from theirs.
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you get mad at yourself for letting
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: it dim absolutely.
• 58:24
  Speaker 3: And you think it's your fault. I think I internalized
• 58:27
  Speaker 3: a lot of what happened in that relationship is like
• 58:30
  Speaker 3: my fault, and I worked really hard to try to
• 58:34
  Speaker 3: make it work by any means necessary. And I think
• 58:37
  Speaker 3: that energy that we put in this goes back to
• 58:41
  Speaker 3: our bigger philosophical conversation about like approaching your work and
• 58:45
  Speaker 3: your life with this very masculine make it work, strive
• 58:50
  Speaker 3: by any means necessary, intensity, intensity and energy like that
• 58:56
  Speaker 3: works in some parts of your life for some amount
• 59:00
  Speaker 3: of time, but not for everything and not for always.
• 59:04
  Speaker 3: And I approached my relationship with that same energy that
• 59:08
  Speaker 3: I was approaching my career. I had this ambition that
• 59:13
  Speaker 3: was so strong that it was like, if I can
• 59:15
  Speaker 3: see it, I can manifest it, It's gonna happen, you know,
• 59:19
  Speaker 3: like one way or another, whether it's this raised, this job,
• 59:23
  Speaker 3: or this relationship, you know. And I was humbled in
• 59:28
  Speaker 3: recognizing that love don't work like that, and love doesn't
• 59:33
  Speaker 3: feel like that. When you feel like you have to
• 59:36
  Speaker 3: work so hard to keep someone's love and affection and
• 59:42
  Speaker 3: respect and warmth that love ain't for you, sis, and
• 59:48
  Speaker 3: that's not actually love.
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: I was in a relationship that made me feel that way,
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: and it was coming from a wound in me.
• 59:55
  Speaker 3: Yea.
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: And when I was reading your book and you talked
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: about your dad's addiction, yeah, thinking that's the wound, right,
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: it's like work to make everything great.
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah, one hundred percent. I didn't recognize that though. I
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 3: think for anybody who grew up in an environment where
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 3: there was a measure of unpredictability that made you feel
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 3: vulnerable and maybe even like unsafe on some level, whether
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 3: it's psychologically, emotionally, physically, or otherwise, I think that you
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 3: build you build up like survival mechanisms. And for me,
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 3: my survival mechanism was perfectionism and like I'm going to outwork, outshine,
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 3: outperform this stuff that doesn't make me feel great, yeah,
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 3: and this stuff that's out of my control, and this
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 3: stuff that feels like my shadow like I was, I
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 3: think I was like outrunning my shadow that But the
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 3: thing about your shadow is it's going to follow you
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 3: wherever you go, right, I have chills when you say that,
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 3: And so I think, like, whatever what I recognized I
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 3: was doing in this relationship and in relationships during that era,
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 3: was assigning value in other people and things outside of
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 3: myself to compensate for what I felt I was lacking inside,
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 3: or what I was lacking just in my makeup, like
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 3: my family dynamic, or where I came from, or how
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 3: I grew up, and like what I had or didn't have,
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 3: And so I was looking outside of myself to compensate
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 3: for that stuff. And so this guy represented for me
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 3: like the perfect picture that I aspired to and safety.
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 3: From what I have seen, I thought, this is security,
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 3: this is stability. Is there's an upward trajectory that I'm
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 3: going to be a part of. This is gonna save
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 3: me from my worst fears? Yeah, And instead it introduced
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 3: like a whole world of pain and confusion and things
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 3: I didn't even know to fear, like duplicity, dishonesty, disloyalty,
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 3: lacking of love, like growing up. The circumstances were not perfect,
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 3: but I always felt loved and I always felt seen.
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 3: And you know, our parents are not perfect, but my
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 3: parents made me feel like unique and special and they
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 3: gave me space to explore who I am and what
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 3: I have to say, and they gave me room like
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 3: I was nurtured in the exact way I was meant
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 3: to be nurtured, like nothing was missing. And I recognize
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 3: that now, but I think it takes time to get there.
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 3: I think I was in a place of feeling the
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 3: inadequacy of within me and from my childhood, perhaps that
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 3: I wasn't even thinking about. But it was just again,
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 3: it was like the shadow. It was like in the background.
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 3: This relationship shattered me. It shattered me when I recognized
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 3: that this is not someone, this is not who I
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 3: thought he was, this person that I loved that I
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 3: thought I was gonna build my whole life where it
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 3: was not who I thought he was. He was living
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 3: a double life. He was like a compulsive liar and
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 3: I didn't see it. And I thought I had.
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: Like such a good character.
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I was, like I am. I thought my bullshit
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 3: meter was pretty good.
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: For you don't trust yourself for a while.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 3: Oh man, you don't. You don't trust yourself, And that's
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 3: the hardest part. But I remember in that by the way,
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 3: like the down in the downfall of that relationship. I
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 3: didn't tell anyone, by the way, when it was actually happening.
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 3: I I just like went inside of myself and I
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 3: didn't trust anybody with that story because it was too
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 3: like too painful, too fresh, too much of an open wound.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 3: And I navigated a lot of that by myself and
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 3: I and because of that, I ended up still in
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 3: relationship with him. I kept going back to the source
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 3: of my pain for my healing, which is in hindsight,
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 3: like if I could just tell that girl, like any
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 3: if I could give her any advice, I'd be like,
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 3: do not go back to the source of your pain
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 3: for your healing. And my mom eventually identified that like
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 3: something was wrong, and I kept kind of keeping her
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 3: at a distance and like keeping her at base. She'd
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 3: call me and I'd be like I can't talk and
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 3: blah blah blah. And then one day she was like,
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 3: Elain Marie, you will tell me today what is going on?
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 3: She knew what is going on like that, like, and
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 3: I just remember, I just broke down and I told
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 3: my mom everything. I told her all the things that
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 3: I'd found out, all the things that I didn't know
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 3: what to do about, and all the lies and like
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 3: all the deception and how broken I was and how
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 3: much I still loved him and wanted to protect him.
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 3: Part of why I didn't tell anybody's I wanted to
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 3: protect his image still, and I also wanted to protect
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 3: the future that we may have, just in case I
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 3: wanted to end up with him, maybe we can work
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 3: through this. And so I don't want everyone to know
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 3: all the things that happened, because then they're gonna judge
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 3: me if I choose to stay in this relationship. So
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 3: I got to keep it locked up. But I told
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 3: my mom finally, in that moment, told her everything, and
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 3: she just said, this is not love you. When you
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 3: are hurting, baby, you can call me anytime of the night,
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 3: two am, three am. You can call your best friend
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 3: she named them, she said, but let me be clear,
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 3: you will never call him again. Do you understand me?
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 3: Never call him again? And I remember, this is like
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 3: after months of like kind of being in this tumultuous, secretive,
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 3: totally toxic dynamic with this person that I was still
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 3: protecting who had like destroyed me, and I still felt
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 3: protective of him. Weirdly and in that like cloudy, murky place,
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 3: my mom instantly made everything so crystal clear. It's like
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 3: she made the decision for me that I couldn't make
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 3: for myself, and she like it's like I was like
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 3: in a dark room and she like threw open the
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 3: door and like pointed me towards the light, and I
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 3: was able to walk out of the room. And I
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 3: never called him again. And then I recognized, like I
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 3: have to save myself. I am like I've lost myself
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 3: and I have to find her and I have to
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 3: protect her, and I cannot engage anymore. And I texted
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 3: this person and I said, I can't talk to you
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 3: and I don't know when I can talk to you again.
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 3: And he wrote back back to words, I understand, And
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 3: I tell you no joke. This is like the person
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 3: I thought I was going to marry. This is the
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 3: person that for like a year, I mean I had
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 3: a ring on my finger and for years, like we
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 3: were together for years, like three years. I think we
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 3: never spoke again. I never called him, I never texted him,
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 3: he never called me, he never texted me. To this day,
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 3: I've never gotten an email, a text, I've never gotten
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 3: an apology. I've never gotten anything from him. But it
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 3: was the greatest, most freeing moment, like letting that fantasy
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 3: life partnership go and just like relying on me and
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 3: remembering that like I'm the source of my happiness, and
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 3: taking back my power from this person that I'd given
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 3: it a way to life changing, life changing. Actually, what's
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 3: interesting about the timing of that is that day when
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 3: my mom said, don't ever call him again, and I
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 3: never called him again. Two weeks later, the teen Vogue
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 3: job came for me, and I still to this day
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 3: believe that those things are energetically connected. I do too,
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 3: and that if I did not offload that I would
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 3: not have created the space for something so big and
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 3: life changing to come into my life and to put
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 3: me and take me on this journey I was meant
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 3: to go on, and on this journey, I was the
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 3: hero of my old story I was. I became the
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 3: husband I was out here seeking. I became that. So
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 3: I was no longer seeking anything or anyone outside of
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 3: myself to do and be anything more than I could
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 3: do and be for myself. Like truly, and I know
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 3: for a fact if if I had chosen that road,
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 3: I never would have Even if that opportunity came I
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 3: would not have chosen it. I would have chosen him,
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 3: and he moved to a different city. I would have
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 3: moved to the city with him. I probably would have
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 3: gotten married, had babies before my career ever took off.
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 3: But I chose me, and I chose this path, and
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 3: I chose a husband who is the antithesis of this
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 3: man in every way. And our relationship is like beyond
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 3: what I thought, like our happiest days, like that relationship
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 3: which I thought was like, it doesn't get better than this,
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 3: Like it doesn't get better than this. Like literally he
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 3: was like my prince charming. I thought, like he was
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 3: my big my prince charming, my like I made him
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 3: my world. I thought that was happiness that does not
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 3: hold a candle to the fulfillment and the joy and
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 3: the partnership and the unconditional love that I feel from
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 3: my husband, who's my best friend and my anchor and
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 3: my rock, like knows me better than anyone, holds me
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 3: down better than anyone, like loves me, loves me like
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 3: my mother loves me. Like That's the type of love
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 3: I'm out here for. And I am so glad, honestly
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 3: that I have. I live through that that I have
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 3: that testimony.
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 1: I don't know why I'm getting emotional now, but when
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: you say he loves me like my mother loves me,
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 1: I actually think people don't talk about that very often.
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: It's so beautiful to be loved like that. It's so
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 1: beautiful that you have that.
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 3: I don't think I've thought about it like that before.
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 3: Thank you for calling that out because I didn't. I
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 3: don't think I've ever even characterized it like that or
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 3: framed it like that.
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 1: So, first of all, you have an incredible Washington Post
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 1: column that comes to my inbox, and you give people advice.
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 3: You subscribe, of course.
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 1: I really I think you're a light worker and I
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 1: support for years. I've supported everything you do because I
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 1: think you're putting so much goodness into the world.
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 3: Thank you. Thank you so much. That honestly means a lot,
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 3: Especially because it's a subscription. I'm like, Wow, you like
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 3: pay money on work.
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 1: You know, when someone has their shit together you need
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 1: to learn.
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 4: From Oh man, I appreciate that.
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 1: So this is I always have people write in and
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: I save them. So this was actually a voicemail originally,
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 1: but they said I have a group of girlfriends. We
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: have all been friends for years and have a lot
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 1: of history together. There's one girl in the group that's
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 1: hard for me to be around. Now that we're out
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: of college, I care about the group. I still want
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: to go on girls trips and I don't want to
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 1: disrupt the whole environment. But I don't feel like I
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 1: can talk to her. She's not approachable, She's turned into
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 1: a bit of a mean girl, and communicating with her
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 1: rationally is just not an option any tips.
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 3: You know, there was a time where I would I
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 3: really believed that anything and everything can and should be
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 3: confronted head on in order to be resolved or even
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 3: to come to a close, like a peaceful close. I
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 3: no longer think like that. What I would say is,
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 3: if you don't think that having the conversation will change
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 3: the outcome of how this person chooses to move through
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 3: the world, I wouldn't waste your energy on having the conversation.
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 3: I would create boundaries with this person, and if you
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 3: need to with the group and operate accordingly, it might
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 3: create a rift in the group. If you bring up
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 3: the elephant in the room, and you can choose to
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 3: be that truth teller, you can choose to be the
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 3: person that calls out the energy in the room and
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 3: the elephant in the room, and it might change that.
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 3: It might disrupt the dynamic. It will disrupt the dynamic.
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 3: And you can either choose to take that on or
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 3: you can choose different friends and different dynamics that feed
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 3: you at the stage of your life. I at this
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 3: stage of my life, I would choose the latter. Like,
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 3: save your energy, says, That's what I would say.
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 1: Save it. Yeah, okay, I have two rapid fires.
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 3: Okay, let's go.
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 1: Smartest decision you've ever made.
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 3: I think it's the partner that I chose. I think
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 3: marrying the man that I chose was probably the smartest
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 3: thing that I've done.
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 1: That's really nice to hear. Yeah, okay, pretty smart question.
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 1: Choose anyone that comes to you.
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 3: I feel like I'm like, add a tarot card? Is
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 3: the single best party you've ever been to? Set the scene, Ooh,
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 3: do I party enough for this?
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 1: Have you been to the Vanity Fair Oscar party?
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 3: I have. I have been to that party.
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 1: Tell me about it.
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 3: You know what, if it wasn't for the most magical
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 3: interaction that I had there, I would say like that
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 3: was nowhere near the best party I've ever been to,
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 3: just because it's so there is this era of pretense.
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you've been to a Brooklyn block party, and those
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 1: are better.
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 3: Exactly, you know what I'm saying, Like the Vanity Fair
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 3: party does not hold a candle to a Brooklyn block
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 3: party in terms of actual fun enjoy, you know, like quotients.
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 3: But I would say I had the most like memorable
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 3: conversation with Cecily Tyson, who just like pinch me. I
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 3: mean she I happened to walk in. I saw Ava Duverney,
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 3: who I love, and she pulled me into this little
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 3: group and who but Cicily Tyson was sitting right there,
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 3: and she like embraced me and had me sit next
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 3: to her, and she held my hands and she like
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 3: looked into my soul and she just spoke to my soul. Honestly,
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 3: for an hour at least, we were just locked in
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 3: and I really really regret that I didn't write down
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 3: every single thing that she told me. But it was
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 3: a moment that you just want to live in forever.
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 3: And I'm so grateful that I had that, And I
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 3: wouldn't have had that at a Brooklyn black party. We're
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 3: not going to running into Sicily Tyson, like on the random,
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 3: on a random block in Brooklyn. So I will say
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 3: for that reason, like that was probably the single best
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 3: party that I've been to because of her, because of
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 3: that moment, not because of Vanabe, not necessarily. I was stressed,
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 3: Like it's a stressful kind of event.
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 4: You're like whole carbet Zine stressed, the carbon is the
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 4: most stressful thing I've ever done.
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 3: Like you're sort of just like everyone's nervous. Everyone has
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 3: like nervous energy. Like the music wasn't really hitting, no
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 3: one was dancing. I'm like, I'm if I'm going to a party,
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 3: I'm going to dance, period. Like it needs to feel
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 3: like a house party. It needs to have a soul
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 3: train line, or it's not really a party, you know
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 3: what I mean. So this really actually doesn't answer your question.
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 3: That was like the best conversation I ever had. But
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 3: party no Brooklyn, Brooklyn looking black party.
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you.
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 3: This is great. I need this, It's it.
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 1: I have one for you.
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 3: You do, Okay, I'm definitely gonna pull this out. I
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 3: actually have I think the best house parties Pete bet does. Yeah,
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 3: And I'm gonna pull this out.
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 1: Of the next one's so sweet.
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you so much, thank you for reading
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 3: this and reading all the thing.
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 1: Come on, okay, wait, you have to sign up for me.
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 1: Oh we've a pretty smart library. Okay, okay, you know
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 1: what time it is. Today's a good day. To have
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: a good day. I'll see you next week.
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 3: Signal ste