Latest / Be A Global Citizen! / 217. HGSE Global Citizen: Casey Lartigue: Empowering North Korean Refugees to Speak Their Stories

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217. HGSE Global Citizen: Casey Lartigue: Empowering North Korean Refugees to Speak Their Stories · Be A Global Citizen!

0:05
Hi there, and welcome to Be a Global Citizen, the podcast that
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explores the concept of global citizenship through the lens of
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value creating education. My name is Scott Bauer and I'm
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Ahsoka, researcher and educator. I hope you find the discussion,
0:18
stories and insights on this podcast to be valuable and
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inspiring as we strive to become global citizens who are
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committed to living a contributive life.
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Enjoy. Greetings, I'm Casey Lartig.
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I'm an American living and working in Seoul, Korea.
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I'm Co founder of Freedom Speakers International and I'm
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so happy to be on your podcast. Hi, Casey, thank you so much for
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being here with me. I'm very excited to have you on
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the podcast as well. And I recall us connecting not
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too long ago, couple weeks at a Harvard mixer.
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And it was such a joy to be able to meet up with a fellow
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educator, fellow American as well.
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And I was just curious, right, What brought you to to Seoul and
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and what was the work that you were doing right now?
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And I was just blown away by your your passion of serving an
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incredible community. Who are, you know, I think
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really they have these powerful stories and, and that I'm, I'm
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very drawn to individuals who also really want to share out
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stories. And especially when it involves,
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you know, groups like North Korean refugees that have
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experienced so much hardship. I think, you know, you bringing
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that to light and sharing it with, with others is so
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important. And, and I know that you've done
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so much before, you know, getting to that, this stage that
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probably helped you in many, many ways to be able to do the
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impactful work that you're doing.
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And, you know, and so I was like, I need a guy.
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I need to get this guy on my podcast and, and learn more
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about why he does what he does. So I'm just happy that you're
2:01
here and, you know, wanted to ask you if you can share some of
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the important milestones of, of your journey as an educator and
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what what got you to want to found the organization that
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you're, you know, currently leading And yeah, the the group
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that you supports and empower. So love to hear more about about
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your story. OK, sure.
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So after I graduated from the Harvard Grad School of
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Education, where you also graduated from, I went to
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Taipei, Taiwan to teach English. I had a choice between an
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internship or just go and see the world.
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And I want to go and see the world.
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So first I went to Taipei, Taiwan, and then I came to
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Seoul, Korea, teaching English also, again, just something to
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do as a young man. And then I went back to the USA
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and I started working at the Cato Institute and first of all,
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staff writer and then later on as education policy analyst.
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Now, the first time I was in South Korea, I met different
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people and some, they were with the Center for Free Enterprise,
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and they went to Washington, DC on a trip and I met them again.
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I was like, hey, I know you guys.
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And then we started talking. And then the point was that, you
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know, I think I can go back to South Korea, but this time not
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as an English teacher, but, you know, in some other capacity.
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And they invited me back as a visiting fellow.
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Now, during that time, I met North Korean refugees, and I
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just felt so humble because I had been focused on freedom.
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I was, you know, I've been working at the Cato Institute at
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the Center for Educational Freedom.
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And here I was meeting people who had to risk their lives to
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get the freedom. And so I, I kind of felt like I
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was before, like a guy at a cocktail party, you know,
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toasting the freedom. OK, But, But at first, I didn't
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really know what to do. So I did everything.
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I helped to send air balloons to North Korea.
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And I was not the main person. I was just joining others who
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were organizing those trips to send air balloons to North
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Korea, helping to send CDs and DVDs.
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And probably the crazy story is the American who wants to send
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comic books to North Korea. OK, whatever.
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So what? We did it, and I was involved in
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so many different ways. Suddenly I was everywhere.
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Just was 2012. I was involved in many things.
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And then I had dinner one night with the first North Korean
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refugee that I had met and she was just praising me.
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You went from not knowing anything about North Korea and
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now you're everywhere. Wow.
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And I'm just soaking it up like, ah, you know, thanks so much.
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And then she said but and I'm like, but what do you really
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want to hear? Yes, I do.
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And then she says, but what you're doing doesn't help those
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of us who've already escaped. And I was like, oh, So what is
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it that you need English? And also the ability to tell our
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stories in English. So OK, Around that time, I met a
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South Korean researcher named Ungu Lee.
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And we put our two heads together and realized that, you
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know, we could have an impact on North Korean refugees by helping
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them with English. Now, this was just a hobby
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again. I was working at the Center for
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Free Enterprise at the director for international relations.
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But after a couple of sessions, we just realized that this is
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something that's really valuable.
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We had many North Korean refugees coming to us, chasing
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us. So then we decided to continue.
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And then later on, we had a North Korean refugee named Yumby
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Park who came through the program, and she attracted so
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much attention. But then after she went to the
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USA, we have people asking us, do you have any more North
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Korean refugees who can give speeches and, you know, conduct
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interviews? So we decided to add the public
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speaking to what we were doing with helping her with English.
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And then I went on a trip to India and I saw the response of
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the audience and I came back and I told my Co founder, you know
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what, we can do more with this project than what we're doing
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now. So then we decided to to make it
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an official organization. And we've now had about 700
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North Korean refugees study English.
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Public speaking and career development we have we've had 23
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English speech contests featuring North Korean refugees.
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We've now published 5 books, including four by North Korean
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refugees. And I'm actually co-author of
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one of the books, Green Light the Freedom with a North Korean
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refugee name Song Mihan. So we, we, we've won awards and
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we've gotten all kinds of attention now.
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So it started off with nothing and just two people coming
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together, and now we've built this incredible organization.
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Wow. Well, congratulations.
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I mean, it just sounds like this culmination of all of your past
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experiences coming into this very clear purpose that you have
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supporting North Korean refugees with, like you said, write
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English. And then the abilities to tell
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their stories in English so that more, more of the world really
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comes to understand, appreciate and, and feel, you know, like
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they can perhaps like contribute right to, to this larger
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struggle right beyond just probably, you know, the borders
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of of North Korea And but like, also in terms of like freedom
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felt felt everywhere. And I think that it's just so
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it's so amazing that, you know, you kind of found yourself going
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from like one place to the next, right.
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You said Taipei and then you're in Korea came back to the US
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and, and then to have this kind of like happenstance, like, Oh,
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I, I, you met someone in Korea and then now they're they, you
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were having this like kind of connection again and it kind of
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like sparked this, this new, you know, multiple chapter period of
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your life. It seems like right, because
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it's still ongoing. And yeah.
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And I just think that's so it's so cool that you're able to
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leverage, you know, teaching English and, you know, working
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at an institute that champion educational freedom.
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And, and so, yeah, I'm, I'm curious though, because I think
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the there's a couple components that really like, you know,
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sparked my interest. One was this desire to want to
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be abroad, right? Like you said, after finishing
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your study graduate studies and you just decided I pay Taiwan
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like let's go. So I'm curious about that
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chapter of your life. And then I'm also curious about
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the, it seems like you had quite a bit of experience working at
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the Cato Institute. And so I'm also curious to
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understand like what attracted you to that particular
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institute. So could you share a little bit
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more details about those two moments?
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Because I think that really it those are foundational for what
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you're doing right now. OK, Well, I can tell you the
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moment when I decided to travel abroad.
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So I was at the Graduate School of Education, and one day in
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class, a class that I was auditing, the professor asked a
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woman, one of the students from Japan, you know, let's just say
9:18
Keiko. OK Keiko, what is it like in
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your country with this policy? And then she gave her a
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response. And then I raised my hand and I
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said, somebody in your country disagrees with you.
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What do they say about this? Because I'm always interested in
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the other side. I don't want to just hear one
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side of an issue. I like to hear both sides.
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And then she said she didn't know.
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And and I thought that was, how can you not know what the other
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side is saying? And I say, you know what?
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I'm going to go to your country and I'm going to find out what
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of the people who disagree with you, what they have to say.
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So I didn't go to Japan. I end up going to Taipei, Taiwan
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instead. But I remember that moment that
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I decided I wanted to travel abroad.
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Before then, seriously, I had never thought about it.
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And especially South Korea, I had never thought about it, but
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ended up going to Taiwan 1st and then to South Korea after that.
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Now I had a great time. You know, I was just teaching
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English and I was a young man. So just hanging out at that time
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as opposed to now, I'm just at the office all the time.
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So that, you know, was kind of the motivation about traveling
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abroad and that is being exposed to different ideas, beating
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different people and finding out who's that person who disagrees
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with that student about the Cato Institute.
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So I was in South Korea and I was applying for different
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places and I was, I received job offers from Reason magazine, I
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think the Bergen Record in New Jersey because I was a sports
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reporter on the Harvard Crimson and they offered me a position
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as a sports reporter and then the Cato Institute.
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And I decided on the Cato Institute, you know, for various
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reasons, but one is that I was interested about educational
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freedom, that there Executive Vice President David Bowles was
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writing a lot of writing about it very often, but they didn't
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have a center at that time. But I wrote to them, and I
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explained who I am and that I'm interested in working with them.
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And then they sent me back a response.
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Yes, we're very interested in you, but we have to meet you.
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And like, I am in South Korea now.
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And they said, OK, and they said, you know, but you know, we
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have to meet you before we can hire you.
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So I, I flew from South Korea to Washington, DC and before the
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interview was over, they said, we want to hire you.
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So then I went back to South Korea and just moved all my
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stuff and then started work at the Cato Institute.
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And I worked there for about 6 years.
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And it was an interesting time there.
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I testified before the US Congress.
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I was an educational consultant to 1 governor and also to two
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politicians, 2 congressmen and also just around the country.
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I had lots of parents contacted me asking me to come into their
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area and to help them because they wanted more educational
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choices for their children. So it's a really, really
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interesting time. But as I said, when I had the
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chance to come back to South Korea, I took it and and came
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back here. Wow.
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Well, I mean, it sounds like a whirlwind of, of experiences,
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not just in terms of the places that you lived in, but also, I
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think this, this search for finding different, different
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opinions, understanding different realities, right?
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Asking interesting questions. And I think, you know, it sounds
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like no coincidence, right? For someone who would respond in
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such a way to this, like Japanese student where it's
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like, well, how do you not know the other side?
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It does kind of seem to be very fitting that you would want to
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work in a space where, you know, especially within, like, the
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realm of education And like, I would imagine the kind of
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intersections with politics of like, you have to know so many
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different sides. I mean, it's probably 360°,
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like, you know, perspectives and, you know, different
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conflicting interests. But learning how to navigate
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that I'm sure for yourself, felt very exciting and presented new
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challenges. Right.
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I'll mention something. So when I when I was at the
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Harvard Graduate School of Education, my advisor was Nathan
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Glaser. And I don't know if you're
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familiar with him, but he was kind of a big deal back in the
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1960s and 1970s. So he OK, no matter what I said,
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no matter which book I mentioned, he had read it and he
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was not interested in winning a debate.
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He was interested in understanding and knowing.
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And I was really attracted to that.
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The idea, you know, about winning debates, I hate debates.
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I like discussion, not the Bates, because the bait.
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You're trying to win the argument.
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You're trying to find the weak point that the other person
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makes. But when it's a discussion, you,
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you give your viewpoint and the other person gives his or her
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viewpoint and there's nothing about, you know, who won and who
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lost. But what did you learn?
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What did you gain from the interaction?
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So that's attracted me for quite a while.
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That's also why I was really interested in Robert Nozick.
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He was a philosophy, A philosophy professor at Harvard,
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and he publicly changed his mind.
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So in the 1970s he wrote a book about libertarianism and then
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later on he changed his views, Nathan Glaser in the Night.
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In 1975, he wrote a book, Affirmative Discrimination,
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Writing Against Affirmative Action.
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By 1987, he started to change his view, and by the time that I
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met him, he had just renounced his previous belief.
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So actually I'm interested in people who change their views,
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who believe in one thing at one point and then completely
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switched to a different view because it means you're always
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looking, you're always thinking, you're not trapped by your
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beliefs at a certain age. So in my case, I started off as
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a young Republican when I was in high school.
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Then I went to Harvard and I became a Democrat.
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And then I became a liberal. And then for a while I was
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flirting with Marxism and then I, I flipped completely became
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an objectivist and then a libertarian.
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And now I just say that I'm an extremist and I'm extremely
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proud of it. So I don't have a particular,
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you know, view that I hold on to just I embrace them all.
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They've all, you know, helped me develop my thinking.
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So I don't, I don't hold on to a particular belief.
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Definitely I'm not for a particular party.
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I'm, I'm not really interested in politics in terms of who wins
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and who loses, but just more about what is the idea?
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What is it that you're trying to do?
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What are you trying to accomplish?
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Wow, that's, that's fascinating. I really, I like what you said
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about from these these professors that you had at the
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Harvard Ed School. They really resonated with you.
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They they, they struck a certain chord, right, of like wanting to
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know, wanting to understand. And then also, I think part of
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it in, in a sense, I think it's like the conviction of like
16:38
pursuing that and then having the courage to put it out there,
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even if it may be right, contradicts something in the
16:45
past that you you held to. Because I would imagine, you
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know, especially for the, the public statements that they they
16:51
had about changing their mind. It didn't happen, you know,
16:54
every other day, right? And not like that flip flopping,
16:57
but really came from this, this longer search and this careful
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understanding of, well, not just from the books that I'm reading,
17:04
but the conversations that I'm having, maybe the places that
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I'm going to, all of these things kind of converging in a
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very definitive, oh, this is it. This is who I am right now.
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And I think also speaks to this evolution of not only thought,
17:18
but also their own sense of being and maybe identity, right?
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That can be, you know, seen as more malleable rather than just
17:25
set, set in stone. And and that's actually very
17:28
freeing as well, right? Rather than thinking you just
17:30
have to stay in like a small box and, and then just operate from
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that for the rest of your life. And I like also, you know, this
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what you mentioned about like kind of less interested in
17:42
debate and more in the discussions point.
17:44
Because again, that provides a forum for you to really think
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through different ideas and, and, and learn and, and be
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challenged on on your own viewpoints and then be able to
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kind of put out yours. And I'm curious like, do you see
18:00
that discussion and then the word dialogue as something
18:03
similar meaning or because like I when you were talking about,
18:07
you know, discussion, I was thinking of it in terms of like
18:11
a dialogue where, you know, maybe with just with another
18:13
person, there is that similar exchange.
18:15
But I'm curious if like you've thought about that meaning?
18:19
And a different way is very similar to discussion.
18:21
So I maybe you know if we check chat TP we can find out what the
18:26
exact difference is between the two.
18:27
But actually dialogue I think is another appropriate word.
18:33
Yeah, yeah, I think I think of it in terms of dialogue at
18:36
least. You know, I think the discussion
18:39
is also very, very important. I mean, any kind of exchange,
18:43
especially in the times that we're living in where again,
18:45
there's this kind of feeling of, you know, if you say something,
18:49
it might threaten my belief and then you just want to end the
18:51
conversation as soon as possible because it gets uncomfortable.
18:54
But you know, the, the willingness to continue to go
18:58
into like uncharted territory or to at least hear them out and
19:02
then have that certain openness of your own, kind of like, oh,
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where, where am I? Where am I?
19:08
Where, how is this landing with me right now?
19:10
Definitely feels like it. It needs this process needs to
19:13
happen more and more. So you kind of received that
19:15
training for yourself or during those six years that you were at
19:18
the Cato Institute or even before that, right.
19:20
And when you were at the the Ed school, would you say that like
19:24
those lessons transferred into the kind of of work that you
19:27
were doing, especially with North Korean refugees or, you
19:30
know, even with like other stakeholders that you were
19:33
interacting with around, around the world and not only in South
19:36
Korea? Yeah, well, I think that was in
19:40
me from a young age. So I've there's this term
19:45
defenselessness, and that is I have nothing to defend.
19:50
I'm just learning and I, I think I even before I ever heard that
19:55
term, I had already embraced it. Another thing that I embraced
19:58
from a young age is the idea of embrace criticism.
20:03
So I'm not afraid of any criticism of anything that I do.
20:08
I'm more likely to learn something from what the critic
20:12
says because critics will point out minor, you know, details
20:17
about you that they think are wrong.
20:19
Your friends are more likely to just let it go.
20:21
They don't want to start an argument with you.
20:23
So I think it's important to pay attention to what critics have
20:28
to say. Actually, our organization, so
20:31
we have, as I mentioned earlier, we have a speech contest based
20:34
on based on North Korean refugee wanted to tell their stories.
20:39
Well, when I first started this work, there were some crazy
20:43
people on the Internet accusing me of brainwashing North Korean
20:47
refugees, trying to tell them what to say.
20:50
And I'm like, you really don't know me.
20:52
I want to hear what they have to say.
20:54
So I have no, you know, essays more about you that if you have
20:57
the chance to work with them that you would try to brainwash
21:00
them. But that's not, that's not what
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I'm trying to do. But I listen to the criticism.
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I, I actually, I did not really engage with the critics.
21:09
I just read what they have to say.
21:12
And when I read what they were saying, I was like, huh, what
21:15
would North Korean refugees say if they have the chance?
21:19
Huh. Why don't we set up a project
21:23
based on North Korean refugees telling their stories?
21:26
I don't think the critics ever thought that we would create a
21:30
speech contest that we've now done 23 times, that North Korean
21:34
refugees are very eager to join, to speak in their own words.
21:39
But oh, yeah, I listen to criticism.
21:41
I listen to the negative things that people would have to say.
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I mean, because when you're, I'm, I'm not like some major
21:46
public figure, but I'm known among lots of people in South
21:50
Korea. And, and once you're known, then
21:54
everybody got an opinion about you.
21:56
I mean, some people are accusing me of being with the CIA, which
22:00
would probably greatly disappoint the CIA if they heard
22:03
that my work was being compared to their, to their level of, you
22:07
know, alleged expertise. So, yeah, I'm always open to
22:11
dialogue, discussion. I'm even open to debate, but
22:15
seems a little bit pointless to me with the approach that, that
22:17
it takes. But I'm, I'm open to criticism.
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I'm open to whatever it is people have to say because I'm
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always ready to learn. And you can learn from a friend,
22:28
you can learn from a critic. But as I said, you can actually
22:31
learn from critics faster. You can learn from your friends.
22:37
Yeah, no, that mean what an incredible mindset to have.
22:41
And I think that really speaks to like not wasting any
22:46
opportunity to, to learn from, yeah, the people around you and
22:50
especially from those that have those strong opinions that are
22:55
citing different critiques. And yeah, sometimes the
22:58
critique, it goes beyond just a critique.
23:00
And it's maybe it's just, you know, they're just being
23:03
hateful, right? It seems like now more and more
23:07
we, we, we understand that the process of learning entails a
23:11
lot of mistakes. And it entails less than kind of
23:14
like, you know, ideal situation where everyone's telling you
23:16
that's a good thing or this is going well, but, you know, you
23:19
need that kind of friction to then take note of that and then
23:23
learn from it. So it just seems that like, you
23:26
know, maybe you it came to you quite naturally.
23:28
But is there any Yeah. Any specific influences when you
23:32
were younger that helped you get to that point?
23:34
Or if not, from interacting with so many people and going through
23:37
this process and being more self aware, do you have any advice
23:40
for how we can be more of that kind of mindset?
23:44
Yeah, no, I think I've always felt like if something is wrong,
23:49
then I don't need to defend it. So if it's something that I
23:54
believe and I come across new evidence or some reason that I
23:58
should change my mind, well, I am not loyal to an idea, I will
24:05
abandoned it quickly. So as I said, I've gone across
24:09
all types of different political ideologies.
24:11
And when I, when I embrace those ideologies, I mean, at the time,
24:17
for example, when I became a libertarian, some libertarians
24:22
were accusing me of not being a libertarian because they're
24:25
like, you're attacking us all the time.
24:27
And I said, you know what, if your idea is not strong enough
24:30
for me to attack it, then it's not worthy.
24:33
OK, You, if you have an idea, you should never be afraid to
24:38
have someone examine it because again, you can learn something
24:42
from that kind of experience. So I think, I don't know if I
24:47
was born with it, but I think from a young age I just felt
24:49
like, why am I defending some idea that is wrong?
24:53
I should always be open to new ideas, always open to new
24:57
perspectives. So I think that's why again,
24:59
I'm, I'm not sure if there's like global citizen type of
25:02
thing, but for me, the idea of, of people around the world are,
25:07
are not strangers to me. It's like that old saying that a
25:10
stranger is just a friend you haven't met yet.
25:12
So when I think about people from around the world, I feel
25:15
like I met one with them so that I'm a human and you're human.
25:19
So what's the problem? I don't see why they're like,
25:24
you know, lines or walls between us.
25:29
I think there is a strong connection to global citizenship
25:32
and what you're speaking about, because it's true that we, I
25:35
think as we get older, right, kind of we put up these
25:38
different walls and perhaps some of those walls are ideologies,
25:42
right, political beliefs and different ideas, right, values
25:46
that that we really adhere to. And, and then anything that kind
25:51
of comes across the challenges that feels threatening, when in
25:56
reality, it's probably like this opportunity to either reaffirm
26:01
why those are there in the 1st place, right?
26:03
And a deeper sense or to have the sense of like, wow, thank
26:06
you for helping me to perhaps grow in a way that I wouldn't
26:11
have been able to do had I not met you.
26:14
And, and I think, you know, the packaging of it can be very
26:17
helpful because sometimes, you know, again, it could be like a
26:20
debate where they're just really trying to dig into you and tell
26:23
you you're, you're, you're wrong and you're a terrible person.
26:25
But I think with discussions or dialogues, there's very much not
26:32
easier. But it's a, it's a route that I
26:35
think really just again, respects the person where
26:37
they're at and allows them on their terms to undergo that
26:41
process of learning. But for you, it sounds like, you
26:43
know, you're just so willing to like lean into any and all kind
26:49
of challenge to a belief that, yeah, I think you're able to
26:52
accelerate it quicker, right? Than probably another person who
26:56
has maybe some, some feeling of like, I don't know where this is
27:00
at. But I think, you know, extending
27:01
that to any person that you would come across as, again,
27:05
someone that can really be of great value, regardless of what
27:09
exactly they're saying, I think is such a important mindset to
27:11
have, especially when you're encountering someone from a
27:14
very, very different cultural background who has the radically
27:18
different beliefs. And it's like, you know, this
27:20
kind of like bursting your bubble kind of moment.
27:24
Well, have you read any Stoicism the philosophy?
27:29
I have like, like Marcus Aurelius, right?
27:33
Yeah. Exactly so.
27:34
But one thing that the Stoic said is that criticism is like a
27:40
favor that someone does for you, whereas in our modern times,
27:44
criticism is seen as as an attack on you.
27:49
So that's something that I've embraced even before I read any
27:53
of the stories, points that that criticism is like a favor.
27:57
So why should I fear something that someone has to say?
28:03
A friend or enemy? Either 1 is OK and then somewhat
28:06
related. I'm not sure how related this is
28:09
but I want to give an example. Years ago a friend of mine says
28:12
she wanted to attend the Harvard Graduate School of Education.
28:16
So I open up my laptop computer and then she said but not now so
28:21
I closed my laptop computer. Then she says oh but I would
28:25
like to apply. So I open my laptop computer and
28:28
my point is that what is it that you're trying to do and what is
28:34
it that you need to do to reach that?
28:38
So many people just talk and I want to get to the action.
28:45
So if you're trying to achieve something, you can recruit me to
28:50
your team to try to help you achieve it.
28:53
But I'm not like passing judgment, as long as you're not
28:56
trying to do anything criminal, of course.
28:59
But if you're just trying to reach a goal in your life, then
29:02
what is it that you need to do to achieve that?
29:06
And then you should have people around you who will, you know,
29:12
hopefully they'll try to help you achieve that.
29:14
But also, you shouldn't be afraid of the people who say you
29:17
can't make it, you can't go there.
29:18
You know what? So listen to what they say
29:20
because sometimes they're right, OK?
29:24
Sometimes they're like, yeah, you know what?
29:26
School's not worth it. You're going to have a lot of
29:27
debt after you graduate and you know, you might not be able to
29:30
get a good job after. So, so you should be open to all
29:34
types of views, pro, con, negative, like I said, even the
29:40
negative people, they don't bother me.
29:42
Just go ahead and just talk. What is you have to say?
29:44
Just go ahead. Yeah.
29:47
And I think too, though, they're like, we yeah.
29:51
Because there's one thing to just like you said, talk and
29:54
think, oh, this would be nice. Should I go to Graduate School?
29:57
Should I not? And then there's it's very
30:00
different from the actual action because when you see that
30:03
someone's taken action on it, that follow through is so
30:06
important. It's it's concrete in a way that
30:09
just talking it, it's like ephemeral.
30:12
It just kind of evaporate and you can change it right from one
30:15
moment to the next. And I think when taking actions,
30:19
people who have conviction and what they want to do are able to
30:23
then follow that action up with another action and then another
30:27
action. And that's actually how you
30:29
advance in in life towards whatever the goal is that you
30:32
want to be doing. And I mean, maybe, maybe you can
30:36
speak to this, especially when starting your organization, when
30:40
you take one action after another and it's starting to get
30:43
bigger and you you're, you're having more people around you,
30:45
right, to support. You're also attracting that kind
30:49
of attention that, again, some people would say is unwanted.
30:51
But from what you're articulating, actually, it's
30:54
just all of it is fuel for you to just get closer to your,
30:57
your, your goal. But like, again, it's sometimes
31:01
I again, like the framing of it. It's, it's they're putting it
31:05
there like these criticisms as a way to like tear you down or to
31:09
distract you. But again, like maintaining that
31:13
conviction of I'm going to take this action.
31:15
I'm after the another one. Is it, is this something where
31:18
like you have to kind of get into tunnel, tunnel vision of
31:21
just like continuing to go down that way?
31:23
You said that you you still kind of listen to all of the the
31:26
stuff that's happening around you.
31:28
It just sounds like a a balancing act, but it doesn't
31:31
get overwhelming at times. You know what?
31:34
Actually, my life changed because of a critic.
31:38
So I was in South Korea first time around and I was writing in
31:43
the Korea Times and a columnist wrote a two-part editorial
31:48
criticizing me and he accused me of being a young African
31:53
American, being a higher, trying to be a higher gun for think
31:56
tanks. And we met and we talked and we
32:00
actually debated. And then I stopped debating him
32:03
at one point and I said, which think tanks are you talking
32:06
about? He's all like the Cato Institute
32:10
and Heritage Foundation and others.
32:12
And I said, I looked up the Cato Institute, I applied, and I
32:18
ended up getting hired. So critics sometimes can see
32:22
something in you. Sometimes they can see some
32:24
potential, and that is threatening to their beliefs.
32:29
So yeah, my life changed because of a critic.
32:34
And I mean, so many, actually, my greatest professional
32:37
achievements came after hearing from critics.
32:42
So that's why I say I embrace it.
32:46
And there's no reason to fear it.
32:47
And again, they're just talking words.
32:51
They're not doing taking any action against you.
32:53
They're just, you know, there's more words out there.
32:56
So. So it's OK.
32:58
Now, actually, I've been influenced about this by several
33:01
people who said wonderful things about the difference between
33:05
talk and action. There's a radio talk show host
33:08
who actually, I used to, you know, actually had a very bad
33:12
relationship with him. But he would say after people
33:16
would call in and say this is good, this is not good, blah,
33:19
blah, blah. He would ask him a very simple
33:21
question. What are you going to do about
33:24
it? You called me, but that's not
33:28
enough. What are you going to do about
33:30
it? One of my mentors is a man named
33:33
Howard Fuller, and he was quoting somebody else.
33:36
But he would say that Mister Talk ain't nothing.
33:39
Mr. Do is the man. OK.
33:42
So yeah, so, so I actually, I've been embraced that that what's
33:49
the action, What are you trying to get to?
33:51
What's your goal? And then what do you need to
33:53
reach your goal? And can I help you reach your
33:56
goal in some way? And, you know, I think that that
34:02
that mentality of taking action even admits, admits adversity
34:07
actually, especially when adversity is is coming up and
34:10
knocking on your door and breaking it down.
34:11
You really need to take that as like a sign that you're probably
34:14
on the right path. And whether that path kind of,
34:17
you know, branches off into another direction or not, you
34:20
know, unforeseeable things like discovering the Cato Institute
34:24
from your biggest critic can really help you grow in a way.
34:29
And then now, you know, in hindsight, you're able to look
34:31
back and actually say, wow, you know, I really need to thank
34:34
that guy, that really angry guy, you know, that rode the thing
34:38
because he was like, you know, what force for you to do even
34:41
more good in the world? Right.
34:43
Well, there's that old saying that a dog doesn't bark at a
34:46
parked car. All right, So if you're on the
34:49
move, then somebody's going to be barking at you, somebody's
34:53
going to be complaining at you. So just take it as part of
34:57
taking action that someone's not going to like what you say or
35:00
what you do, but it's OK. There are like 8 billion people
35:04
in the world, and many of them will never hear about you.
35:07
And then some of them who hear about you won't like you, but
35:10
it's OK. Well, I mean, that's a great
35:14
metaphor. I have the image of a dog right
35:16
now barking. Would you say, though, that like
35:18
in the times that we're we're living in, you know, there,
35:21
there does seem to be this, I don't know, like the world is
35:26
getting more complex and and messier and it's evident, you
35:30
know, the interconnectedness of it.
35:31
And yet it seems like more and more people are like the parked
35:34
car rather than an actual moving car.
35:37
And, and so, yeah, does that, that that must cause some, some
35:43
sense of, of, of, of concern on your part.
35:46
Would you say that's kind of the, the reality?
35:48
And it's how, how is it that we can get people motivated and
35:52
inspired to to pursue those goals and take those actions and
35:57
be that moving car that a dog is barking at?
36:01
You know what? I don't think we can get around
36:03
it. I'm saying we have this thing
36:06
called the Internet and we have social media and people can bark
36:11
all day and they can even make money off of their barking.
36:17
So it's just the reality of life.
36:20
Now, in my case, I'm very OK. People see me posting on social
36:25
media, but I don't pay attention.
36:28
I go online, I post about my work, I show photos of our work,
36:33
and then I get back to work. So I'm not focus on social
36:38
media. I know lots of people are saying
36:39
lots of negative things, but these days I'm just doing my
36:43
work. So actually I don't really have
36:46
time now. If I, if I get tagged and
36:48
somebody's criticizing me, then I'll take a look at it, see what
36:51
it is they have to say. But I, I think it's too late
36:55
now. Actually, the world has always
36:57
been in trouble. Every generation can talk about
36:59
how the world is going to hell now.
37:01
So, but now it's just going to hell because of social media and
37:06
the Internet. But that's just a part of life.
37:09
And but again, I just, I mean, I just tell people don't pay so
37:13
much attention to what people are posting on social media.
37:17
I mean, they're just talking and barking.
37:21
So. So it's OK the the world will go
37:23
on despite the the people out there barking at everything.
37:29
Right. No.
37:29
And it's true, right? If the world's always had this,
37:33
this kind of heightened sense of it's, it's now, you know, we're
37:36
falling off the Cliff or now things are getting to a breaking
37:39
point. But social media has definitely
37:41
brought it to our awareness just that much more.
37:43
And we're just kind of becoming conditioned, I think to to want
37:47
to look at it right as if it's just kind of always buzzing in,
37:51
in our ears because of the proximity of these technologies.
37:54
So when I started my work at the Cato Institute in 1998, at that
38:00
time, if somebody wanted to reach out to me, they'd have to
38:04
send me a letter. OK, or they could call.
38:07
But I mean, the EI mean Internet had not really been developed by
38:11
that point. Then later on the Internet
38:15
started develop and they were like these news discussion rooms
38:19
and chat groups and all that. But still people couldn't really
38:22
reach you easily. Now they can just look you up
38:27
and just send you a direct message full of anger, or they
38:31
can set up a blog and criticize you.
38:34
They can set up a podcast and criticize you.
38:37
So now I think the difference is that it's just much easier to
38:41
reach people compared to the past, as I said in 1998.
38:45
And I would receive letters from people who are angry at
38:48
something I had written. Now, when they left their phone
38:51
number, I will call them. And almost every time they
38:55
apologize. Oh, I was having a bad day when
38:58
I messaged you. But it was like a kind of a
39:01
different generation now. People would take public stands
39:05
and they they, you know, criticize you, defame you, lie
39:10
about you. They get clicks and doing it.
39:13
They get followers and doing it. I mean, if you set up a podcast,
39:18
if you have the choice between like a positive podcast and a
39:22
negative podcast, go negative because you're going to have
39:26
many more followers. Actually, there's a story and I
39:29
get, I don't know if it's true, but a Russian newspaper
39:31
supposedly just published good news for a couple of days, and
39:36
they lost, like, half of their followers, half of their
39:40
readers, like, overnight. So, yeah, negative things
39:44
attract people. I mean, just think about in your
39:47
life, if someone compliments you, OK, that's good.
39:49
If someone criticized you, what did they say?
39:53
I mean, we just naturally focus much more on that kind of thing.
39:58
Oh man, well my podcast is not going to do as well as it could
40:01
because it definitely is in the camp of positive.
40:04
Exactly. You know what, I don't care.
40:06
Yeah, exactly. At the same time, there's
40:08
certain things beyond just the follower counts that that are
40:11
important. But I think, you know, learning
40:14
about all of this, it's it's just very clear that, you know,
40:18
well, actually hold on one one thing I wanted to mention is
40:19
like, Can you imagine like right now, even in like the digital
40:22
era, Can you imagine a critic critic sent you a handwritten
40:27
note and sent it to you by mail? Like now you probably would be
40:31
like, you get the warm fuzzies and be like, wow, they took the
40:33
time to actually take, I got a pen and paper.
40:36
Like that would be so different. And then you have a phone call
40:39
and you're like, wow, you know, they actually picked up their
40:41
phone rather than just doing all that other stuff that's even
40:44
more indirect. And again, just really trying to
40:47
just be as invasive as possible to our our privacy because now
40:51
our lives have just become like we've created, you know, our own
40:55
avatars within the digital space.
40:57
And that's really kind of what it seems like the future is for
41:00
better or worse. But you know, again, like, I
41:03
think what I was going to mention earlier was that with
41:06
all of this talk about using ones voice, taking action, but
41:10
you know, all of the noise that comes about from taking an
41:13
action and, you know, believing in in the work that you're
41:15
doing, it just sounds like it's that's just a normal part of
41:18
what it what democracy is, right?
41:20
I mean, you're doing your thing, people are doing their things,
41:22
and then there's going to be a bunch of people that might not
41:24
agree with it, but there'll also be people that do agree with
41:27
what you're doing. And yet is here you are just
41:29
trying to kind of continue doing the work, right?
41:32
You pay attention, but you continue doing the work and, and
41:36
you get results. And, and it sounds that like
41:38
from the, the work that you've been doing with North Korean
41:41
refugees, the results are evident in the numbers of the
41:46
hundreds and hundreds of North Korean refugees that has
41:48
successfully learned English, integrated into society, and,
41:52
and even made global impact through their books, right.
41:56
They're publishing. And I just think that that's so,
41:59
so amazing. And and so my question is like,
42:02
you know, beyond just your your own self as an individual who is
42:06
making this this change by like following in your pursuits and
42:10
taking action. And like, what is it like
42:13
supporting these North Korean refugees as they're discovering
42:18
their voice? And then I think more so
42:21
harnessing that voice through the power of language.
42:23
And like, how does that connect to global citizenship?
42:26
OK, well, great question. OK, so first of all, as I
42:33
mentioned, when I was at Cato Institute, I would get angry
42:36
letters when I had a radio talk show.
42:41
When I will open the lines typically be like, oh, you know,
42:45
you're a sellout or you know what, they should kick you off
42:50
the air. So just negative stuff.
42:54
Usually it comes to some positive callers, but but a lot
42:58
of it was negative. Then I started working on Newark
43:02
Korean refugees. Oh my goodness.
43:05
So I wrote a book with the North Korean refugee, as I mentioned,
43:09
Somi Han. She calls me our hero.
43:12
Her life mentor says that I changed her life.
43:15
She was on the on the verge of committing suicide and was in
43:19
deep depression when she found me.
43:22
And now she's as happy as can be.
43:24
She's an author and public speaker.
43:27
So I've seen, you know, where she started when I first met her
43:31
and where she is now. There's a refugee named Yummy
43:34
Park who said calls me an Angel, says that I believed in her
43:38
before she believed in herself. Other North Korean refugees,
43:43
actually a lot of them call me Kominam, like a pretty flower
43:46
man. So yeah, it's I'm not so pretty
43:52
now, but. But maybe a decade ago when I
43:56
first met them, but. It's the Radiance, the Radiance
44:00
energy. I get so much praise from North
44:03
Korean refugees and then our volunteers and donors, actually
44:11
our board of directors, I mean, they're all S Koreans, and they
44:15
just praise me so much and about the difference I'm making.
44:19
So if there's an occasional critic, it's OK because I get so
44:23
much love from the people around me.
44:28
I mean, especially the North Korean refugees, but also South
44:30
Korean, some Americans, some other people from other
44:33
countries. So yeah.
44:36
So then, I mean, it's just been a beautiful experience.
44:40
I've been doing this since 2012. The organization formed in 2013.
44:47
And I've seen so many success stories, refugees, you know,
44:52
basically starting with no English to later on giving like
44:56
a TE DX talk. Of our four authors, three of
45:03
them say that they all, you know, had like some trauma
45:07
related to growing up in North Korea, but that publishing a
45:12
book was like a healing experience for them.
45:15
I'm so. Yeah.
45:16
So anyway, it's just this. Yeah.
45:17
It's just my goodness. I wish they were here so they
45:19
could talk. I mean, I feel strange, like
45:21
bragging about the, the, the love that I get from them.
45:25
But yeah, it's, it's, it's there all the time.
45:27
Almost at least once a week one of them will contact me or
45:30
contact my Co founder Angu Lee and just praise us for the work
45:35
that we're doing. It's, it's, I think it's, you
45:37
know, it's important, especially, you know,
45:39
considering how much we talked about negative criticisms and
45:42
how that is pervasive. I think, you know, the contrast
45:46
to that the other side, what you're sharing right now is very
45:49
important, right? That there are so many positive
45:52
voices out there and, and those voices are aligned in the same
45:56
actions that you're doing because it is very much a team
46:00
effort. But it's one in which, you know,
46:02
that I think there's this deep empowerment that is happening
46:06
where you're able to share in not only like your knowledge and
46:12
like the skills that you're able to offer to them, but to really
46:15
help them integrate into kind of like a network of, of
46:19
professionals of, you know, storytellers of individuals who,
46:23
you know, can really show them another world.
46:26
And then, you know, once they see that, then they're off to
46:29
the races, right? And then they're, they're doing
46:31
things that are probably, you know, then inspiring you, right?
46:34
So then it's this kind of, you know, positive feedback loop
46:37
where at first they were just like, wow, you know, it's you,
46:40
you, you, and then now you're, you know, you know, it's, it's,
46:43
it's, it's mutual, right. It's in the same way that a
46:45
dialogue goes where it's kind of, you know, two way St.
46:49
And I think it's it in in a way, you know, you, you can even just
46:52
sum it up to friendship, right, Because that's, you know, that
46:55
sense of like, you know, respect and pride and and inspiration
47:00
that you're, you've been able to like cultivate these these
47:03
friendships over a number of years.
47:06
And, and I think that ties into global citizenship as well,
47:09
right, because they're definitely not strangers now,
47:12
right? They've been engaged with them.
47:14
But I think that making impact and following in that those same
47:18
footsteps of I'm going to take this action and I'm going to
47:20
keep taking this action even when everyone, not everyone, but
47:24
like these critics are saying a bunch of stuff.
47:27
It's, it's all good. You're just going to continue
47:30
doing the work because it's that meaningful.
47:32
Yeah, just keep going to work as as the as the radio talk show
47:35
who she used to ask. What are you going to do about
47:37
it? Well, I'm doing something about
47:38
it and. You are.
47:40
Yeah. And actually, so I mentioned my
47:43
co-author a couple of times. In her case, when she was in
47:45
North Korea, she knew about 5 or 6 countries in the whole world,
47:52
OK? That's how isolated she was when
47:54
she was there. So she was definitely not a
47:56
global citizen now living in freedom because of our work,
48:01
she's now traveled to five different countries and she
48:04
traveled separately on her own when she was after she shortly
48:07
after she arrived and with the Canada.
48:09
So now she's lived and traveled to six different countries, the
48:15
same number that she knew about when she was in North Korea.
48:19
OK, we've had some others who get when they were in North
48:23
Korea. I mean, global citizen, no way.
48:25
They didn't know anything about the world.
48:28
But we've now taken North Korean refugees to, I think it's 13
48:32
different countries and some cases more than once to some
48:36
countries. So they're learning about the
48:38
world. They're experiencing the world
48:41
because of our work. So many people contact them.
48:45
And sometimes they learn about countries in the world because
48:48
somebody from that country contacted them or they traveled
48:52
there with us. So they're learning about the
48:55
world, taking advantage of opportunities that are out
48:57
there. So they've changed in so many
49:00
ways because of the work of our organization.
49:05
Yeah. And it just, it sounds like this
49:07
beautiful expansion of, of their work in tandem with their own
49:12
capabilities and their own confidence that they can not
49:15
only learn about that wider world, but through sharing their
49:19
stories, they're able to influence it for the better.
49:22
Right. And, and I think again, this is
49:25
kind of a nice place, I think for us to kind of kind of close
49:28
out this conversation, but it's the, the work, it's the question
49:32
right from the radio host. That's like, what are you going
49:34
to do about this? Well, you're going to, you're
49:36
going to continue doing the work or you're going to continue
49:39
showing up even when things seemingly are very difficult or
49:43
dark. But how to bring all of that and
49:47
to create value through those, those conversations, those
49:50
discussions, those that the hate mail, all of that, I think it
49:55
really serves your own benefit of continuing in, in your, your
49:59
impact. So I just think that's really
50:01
wonderful and I, I will now I wanted to ask a final question.
50:05
This is a question I ask all my my guests.
50:07
And so do you have any book or movie recommendations?
50:14
Actually, there's only one book and it's the one that I wrote.
50:18
OK. Yeah, so it's green, like the
50:21
freedom and I missed a bit earlier.
50:23
I wrote it with a North Korean refugee named Song Miyan and it
50:28
tells the story of her first of all, just terrible life in North
50:34
Korea on the virtue of starvation, living in a barn,
50:39
homeless for a while, but with her mom.
50:42
And then her mom escaped when right before her 12th birthday.
50:47
And then she spent about six years living with her aunt and
50:49
basically just terrible, terrible situation, even living
50:53
above a pig. So but then her mom rescued her.
50:57
And it's a story about her escape, which was also really
51:00
dramatic. She was getting shot at as she
51:02
ran across the border and then about her adjustment, but also
51:05
some struggles when she came to South Korea.
51:08
And and then actually one thing is that because I learned about
51:12
her struggles, I took her to a Harvard alumni event.
51:15
And she was just like when she was in North Korea, she only
51:19
went to elementary school for one year.
51:21
But then here she was at a Harvard alumni event that she
51:24
just couldn't believe it. She called her mom.
51:25
You know, it's like a great moment in her life.
51:28
But anyway, the one book that I'd recommend is Green Light,
51:31
One Word, Green Light to Freedom by Somi Han and Casey Lartig.