Latest / UK Column Radio / Jews, Soviets, and the 1976 Soweto Uprising in South Africa | Jerm Warfare

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Jews, Soviets, and the 1976 Soweto Uprising in South Africa | Jerm Warfare · UK Column Radio

• 0:30
  Speaker 1: My name is Jim. This is Germ Warfare, the Battle
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: of Ideas. Simon Roush, thank you for joining me in
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: the trenches yet again.
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: Don't you be cheeky. You're all welcome and hello and
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: lovely to see you, but when I invite you hunting,
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: you're dead silent.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: Actually, it's hunting season now, almost, isn't it. I should
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: come up to your side. Yes, what's the window about?
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: A few months to play with a.
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: Yard? The ends at the end of August. But we
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: have speed dispensation on this farm. So as much as
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: people don't hunt in summer because it's too hot and
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: the meat spoils too quickly, we can hunt in September
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: and October when it's still very cool.
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to find a segue into our chat. We
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: want to talk about a little bit of South African
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: history and June sixteen, but there is no segue. Well
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: maybe there is, but the hunting nomads nobody being here
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: back in the day, just animals.
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you know, to understanding the sixteenth you've
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: got to have a sense of context, and that sense
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: of context should probably begin with a few simple statements
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: that are irrefutable and well recorded.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: Well before you read it, before you do that, okay,
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: Only we are South Africans, know what you mean when
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: you say June sixteenth.
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, okay. So the basis of the conversation is a
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: peaceful protest against Afrikaan, that is to say, the South
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: African dialect of Dutch of the first white settlers of
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: South Africa being imposed as a medium of instruction for
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: black school pupils in nineteen seventy six, fifty years ago.
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: And it's a public holiday as a result, and it
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: celebrated every year with protests and rallies and all sorts
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: of stuff.
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a decision that was almost
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: competitively stupid. It was like, if for some perverse reason
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: you felt the need to be very very stupid, you
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: couldn't do very much better than that. The black people
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: of South Africa. So when I say medium of instruction,
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: the medium in which you taught at school, the black
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: people of South Africa obviously have mother tongues and then
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: a second language. A second preference would be English because
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: it's the international language and Afrikaans is associated with a
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: part eight. So naturally they were never going to be
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: keen on the idea and if you had said to me, Simon,
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: you've got to go to school, and you can't learn
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: in your mother tongue English, you can't even learn in
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: let's say, French, you have to learn in I don't know,
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: Vietnamese or whatever. I would have done even worse at
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: school than I did do, and I did badly enough.
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: It was an atrociously stupid idea. But the government of
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: the day, apart eight says, this is what's going to happen.
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: And so these children conduct a peaceful protest and the
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: government that forces, the police forces, attempted to disperse them
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: with tear gas, and the children kept coming, and then
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: so they fired on them, and four were killed and
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: eleven were injured. And the numbers are not great by
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: the standards of international tragedy.
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: Isn't official, sorry, isn't official death toll twenty three.
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: Jeremy, I don't know, but I looked up some newspapers
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: of the time and that was the figure that they gave,
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: so I thought, well, I'll just stick with it. Otherwise,
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: you know, it's But if it was twenty three, maybe
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: over the successive days or other bodies landed up at
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: the mortuaries I'm perfectly happy to accept it up. But
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: I endeavored to research this story at its roots. So
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: I was looking actually in black newspapers online.
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: So we can go to So this was on the
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: sixteenth of June nineteen seventy six, and this was based
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: on a legislation that Hendrik Voot brought in I believe
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: in was it nineteen fifty three?
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: Well, no, it was to do with legislation that was
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: being imposed in nineteen seventy six for the first time, namely,
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: right black children, they won't be taught in let's say, Zulu.
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: They won't be taught in English, which was their preference,
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: albeit not their mother tongue. They would be taught in Afrikaans.
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: So I'm referring to bunty education. Sorry, so I'm thinking
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: of bunty education, which came about in nineteen fifty three.
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: Yes, okay, So the numbers involved were not tremendous, you know,
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: I can think of boating accidents that involved more than
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: twenty three people. But a guy called Sam and Zeza
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: took a photograph that became globally iconic of one of
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: the boys who'd been shot, a youngster, a primary school
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: pupil who wasn't meant to part anticipate, but who kind
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: of got lost in the crowd, and his sister happened
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: to find him. I watched an interview with her. Happened
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: to see him, and she dashed across him and said, listen,
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: just stick with me and I'll get you home safely.
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: So when the police opened fire, this little boy was killed.
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: And there's a photograph of a welling tendering bystander carrying
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: him in his arms. The little boy's name was Hector Peterson,
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: being carried in the other chap's arms, with the sister
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: running alongside, in a state of distress. And now, without
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: digging too much into the weeds, I'll do a quick
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: sort of introduction that begins in first white people arrive
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: here in sixteen fifty two. There are black tribes coming
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: down from West Africa who for various reasons, don't enter
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: about two thirds of South Africa. So the overwhelming majority
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: of South Africa was at that time very very much
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: underpopulated by small groups of Aboriginal people who prefer to
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: be called bushman. There was a constitutional court case in
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: our neighboring country of Botswana some years ago in which
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: the Bushman tribes said, we do not want to be
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: called san which is the academic term for them, because
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: the term comes from our language. It came out of
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: our language, and we use it in a disparaging way.
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: It means a person of no consequence, a person for
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: whom you click your tongue, or like many idiomatic languages,
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: a short, simple phrase can have two completely different meanings,
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: so it means either a person of no consequence or
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: a stock thief. And we don't want to be known
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: as as robbers. We were happy with the term bushman.
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: We didn't have a real name for ourselves. When naming
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: became important to the white people, and then there was
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: another group of people called the what the whites called
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: hottentt which is also meant to be a very disparaging term,
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: but the origin of it is from the Hottentot people.
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: When the first whites arrived here, they asked the hot
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: and Tot, who are you? What name do you go by?
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: And I'm not a master of the language, but I
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: double and triple checked my sources on this, so I'm
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: not going to try to pronounce it perfectly. But it
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: was a phrase that meant we are people like you,
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: and that was became simplified by the European tongue to
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: hottentot a perfectly legitimate term. So you have the bushmen
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: and the hottentots very very very thinly scattered. And I
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: wouldn't describe myself as an expert on this subject, but
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: I know quite a lot about it. When the Zulu
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: and the glass of people primarily descended from West Africa,
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: then to Central Africa and down the East African Plains
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: through the coastal strip that runs east of the Great
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: African Rift Valley and its escarpments, it's folded mountains. When
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: they got to the let's say, the north east of
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: South Africa what is today Kuasulu, the place of the Zulus,
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: they exterminated every last bushman. Now, the proof of this
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: lies in the fact that the finest bushman rock art,
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: this world famous rock art people come from all over
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: the world to look at it, is in that province.
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: But there are no bushmen there. I grew up in
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: that province, left it when I was twenty seven years old,
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: and in that entire twenty seven years, I never saw
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: a single bushman or hot and and they're very very distinctive.
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: You can't miss them, the tiny, tiny, tiny people. I
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: have a guy. So what happened was that these people
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: were pushed out of their place, their preferred place since prehistory.
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: It was really a genuine genocide when that is the
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: center of your world, this place called Kuasulu and the
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: province just south of it that I live in, Eastern
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: Cape Province, and you can grow up there and not
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: see one. To this day, I've never seen one. And
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: you know, go back to visit people a single bushman.
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: They were all wiped out, but we know that it
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: was the center of their existence because they left the
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: most evidence of their existence there. So the blacks murdered
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: them all the remainder ran down to the Cape, and
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: a bunch went to neighboring countries like Samibia and Botswana
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: and into the deep interior of South Africa, the Karou
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: and so you find some of them. I'm in the
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: kind of the last part of the Karu semi desert
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: region in the Cape. They became assimilated and the colored
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: peoples of the Cape again a group that the politically
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: corrective South Africa wish wouldn't call themselves colors. But who
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: steadfastly insist on being known as colors. The colored people
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: of the Cape today are largely a majority Bushman stock
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: that were intermarried with people from Malay slaves from Malaysia
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: and white farmers and pioneers and what have you. Right,
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: So the whites arrive in sixteen fifty two, and there's
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: a very very very slight expansion, minimal until about eighteen
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: twenty when after the Napoleonic Wars, the British had either
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: there were three separate occasions, so one was an out
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: and out theft one was a gift. But the British
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: are now in charge of the Cape Colony. We haven't
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: even gone into the interior yet, and the British had
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: tons of demobilized soldiers from the Napoleonic Wars, and they
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: wanted to stabilize the frontier between the Boors that the
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: Dutch settlers, although strictly speaking they weren't really boors yet,
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: but let's not get too complicated. And also the first
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: black people now one hundred and twenty five years after
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: the first settlers in South Africa, So sixteen fifty two
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: plus one hundred and twenty five seventeen seventy seven, the
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: commander of the Dutch East India Company, which technically this
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: was not a country, it was a private property of
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: the Dutch East India Company, wanted to slave. He thought
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: slaving was a good idea and he knew that in Mozambique,
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: north of South Africa, on the Indian Coast Indian Ocean coast,
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: the Portuguese were making money handover first in the slave trade,
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: had a place called Delagoba Bay and others, but famously
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: Delagoba Bay. So he set out on an expedition to
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: find black people he wanted to slave. It took him
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: two years to find the first blacks, and in the end,
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: slavery didn't really become much of a thing in South
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: There there were slaves, there were no two ways about it,
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: but it wasn't a big thing. It wasn't like in
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: Kenya and Tanzania and Mozambique and then on the West coast.
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: If you think of Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness story
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: and the slave trading posts on the Congo River and
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: what have you, it was really really minor in South Africa.
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: But that just shows you how unpopulated this country was.
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: The man searched for two years with three companions, two
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: guides and a doctor who eventually turned back. It's a
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: bit of a muddy story, but I've read the diaries,
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: and you know, in eighteen twenty, the British want to
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: stabilize the agreed split of South Africa. So some years
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: before it had been agreed between the Ossa chiefs and
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: the White administration, a guy called Baron von Plettenberg that
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: the northernmost extremity of South Africa, or northeastern if you like,
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: would be this farm, the farm that I live on today,
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: And to the abundant nuclear from the maps is indisputable,
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: makes it quite clear. And then there'd be no man's land.
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: And by the way, there were was by this time.
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so we're talking eighteen twenty. The British bring in
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: tons of these demobilized soldiers from the Napoleonic Wars to
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: stabilize the northern boundary because it's a fault line between
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: the Whites and the Cursus. You know, the Whites accused
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: the pauses of stock theft and stealing their women. The
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: courses say that the Whites are encroaching on their lands,
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: and so there was a there was a no man's
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: land imposed north of this farm, and this farm is
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: about seven hundred and sixty seven kilometers from Cape Town.
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: So that just goes to show you the curses didn't
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: claim this land or land for another fifty kilometers because
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: they'd never been anywhere here, and they said, no, that's fine,
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: if you stay there, we can there'll be a modus vivendi.
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: Right in the eighteen thirties, along comes King Sharko of
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: the Zulus and he begins what's known as the Great
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: Crushing the ft Arnie. It's a complicated subject, so if
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: there's anybody listening who's an expert, please don't get too
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: upset that I'm going to oversimplify it, because we've got
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: thirty two minutes left. It was recorded by numerous, numerous,
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: numerous people who didn't like one another, so missionaries burse
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: alcoholic Irish gun dealers, literally, you name it. That the
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: population was reduced by about a third to two thirds.
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: Of Royal Artillery officer who was in the epicenter of
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: the Great Crushing, there's just a wild slaughter, black on
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: black only because whites were not present. They were not
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: even near it.
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: Just for context, this was more on the eastern side
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: of the country.
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: Well, that's the only place where people lived. It's very
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: very well recorded that the interior and the west were underpopulated.
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: As an understatement, Jeremy, it was very, very, very very
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: few people. There are portions of South Africa where, even
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: prior to the Great Crushing no human beings had ever
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: been recorded, which is not to say they hadn't been
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: there a thousand years before, but you might drive an
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: ox wagon for a few hundred kilometers and not see
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: a human being. It was a very underpopulated part of
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: the country, part of the world, except for, as you
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: rightly say, the narrow coastal belt between the Drakensburg Mountains
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: and the Indian Ocean, but only beginning east of the
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: Great Fish River. A very small portion of South Africa
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: was reasonably popul related, and that population was reduced. This
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: Royal Artory officer to an assessment of it. He was
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: like a legate sent out to chat to the king,
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: you know, and he documented it very well, and it's
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: well recorded in a a book called The Day of
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: the Dead Moon by David Ratre that between a third
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: and two thirds of the population of South Africa was
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: wiped out, so you had about maybe maybe a million
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: non white people in South Africa. And there's some sources,
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: by the way, not politically incorrect sources. Let's say the
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: number was lower. Excuse me. Fast forward from the Great
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: Crushing in the eighteen thirties and then the white expansion
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: into the interior of South Africa beginning in eighteen thirty six. Issue.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: Fast forward to this year, nineteen seventy six, and the
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: population of South Africa is twenty eight million, and the
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: previous year's population was seven hundred and forty odd thousand fewer.
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: So you had the greatest population explosion of anywhere in
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: the world, bar none. China can't compare. India can't compare.
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: Bearing in mind that they already had large populations, so
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: they were exploding through the twentieth century from a very
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: high base. South Africa's population was exploding from a tiny, tiny,
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: tiny base. Lo and behold, it's twenty eight million. So
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: you have this context of this burgeoning black population reaping
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: all of the benefits of high employment, Western medicine. Blah
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: blah blah blah. We know what caused these things. We
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: know why it happened in China, we know why it
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: happened in India. But we know why it's happening in Africa,
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: and these people won a bit more for themselves, and
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: the liberation beginning of African countries began in nineteen fifty seven.
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: That noise in the background is my Alsatian. I've got
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: a rare true Alsatian, not a German shepherd. He's a
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: ferocious beast and he he yawns and coughs and grumbles
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: as he sees his name.
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: Philus for Alsatian.
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: I didn't name him. He was named by a girl.
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: And he's ferocious. He's pitch black, and as you know
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: in South Africa, that is in universally in animist and
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: activist belief systems. That means that he carries bad spirits
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: with him, you know, spirits that can overpower the traditional religions,
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: you know, the kind of witchcraft and herbal and what
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: have you based religions. So he's not a well liked
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: dog anyway, and he's proper ferocious. A warned guy about
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: running past my gate once and this guy did it
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: and the so flew out. Oh it wasn't good. But
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: I've never gotten into trouble. I've never had to pay
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: a fine, go to a magistrate, go to a police station.
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: It's always with somebody who does something stupid and they've
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: been forewarn repeatedly by me. Anyway, So along comes the
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: government and it says, you people who are seeing liberation
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: movements around Africa, who know that you are second class
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: citizens who are receiving bard to education, not a very
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: high quality of education as much. And you can make
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: the argument, you can make the argument that the white
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: people were doing more for the blacks of South Africa
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: than any other black government or any other African government
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: was doing for its own black people. But obviously nobody's
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: receiving that argument on the black side. So we have
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: to look at why this thing happened from the black
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: point of view. They say, we want you to be
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: instructed in a third language that you detest. How about
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: that naturally, I mean, if you were born mentally retarded,
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: you knew what the was going to be. So these
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: guys protested peacefully and they were shot, but a handful.
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: The newspapers, the black newspapers of the time, talk about
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: four killed, eleven wounded. This guy takes man. I'm going
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: to get his name wrong, Sam and Zeema, I think
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: is correct. Takes this incredible photograph of the anguished sister,
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: the well meaning bystander, a boy in his teens, quite tall,
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: and what have you carrying this lifely little boy's body.
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: Thames Television comes out and does a documentary and in
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: the documentary they interview the guy who instigated the protests,
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: whose name was Sizi Machinini, and Sisi Machinini, who has
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: disappeared from history. One Black journalist that I listened to
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: speak about this in I think twenty twenty three said
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: that he completely disappeared. Nobody ever saw him again the
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: night of the documentary, but not that he was killed
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: by security forces. That he gapped it for the border
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: and he went into exile and somewhere he just disappeared.
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: But in the Thames documentary, this guy at Sizi Machinini,
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: speaks more eloquent, articulate English than many native English speakers
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: can in South Africa to the day. He puts his
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: case beautifully. And that was the death knell of a
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: part eight, when in one moment you hear a story
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: of somebody imposing an idea that is superficially grassly stupid
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: on people who might be seen as communists. They might
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: be seen as revolutionaries. If you're a white supremacist, you
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: might see them as inferior. But nevertheless they are the underdog.
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: Then you see the iconic photograph. Then you hear a
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: guy explaining himself beautifully and a part eight was its
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: days all were numbered. In nineteen sixty, there'd been a
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: massacre at a place called Sharpville. I used to I
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: looked for a short span of time in Sharpville, as
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: it happens when black people came to protest at a
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: police station and there was, you know, the police open fire,
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: lots of people killed. That's nineteen sixty. Nineteen seventy three,
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: there were strikes in the port of durbin my hometown,
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: and Sharpville is in Johannesburg, but I come from just
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: south of the Port of Durban. When Durban was one
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: of the most important ports in the world, the three
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: largest sugar terminals in the world were all in Durban,
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: for instance, and that kind of set the tone for
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: the nineteen seventies, which was in any case of febrile time,
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: country after country after country in Africa was getting its independence.
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: Zimbabwe was about to get its independence in nineteen eighty
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: and these workers around Durbin just all go on strike,
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: and suddenly the country seems as if maybe the white
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: stranglehold on power is not as complete as people thought.
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: And so from there things happened very quickly. Nineteen seventy three,
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: the strikes, nineteen seventy six, the youth, the event, the
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: sixteenth of Junior event, the protest against Africans is a
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: medium of instruction, as the medium of instruction in black schools.
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: And then you've got the eighties violence, lots of lots
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: and lots of violent protests, burning down of schools and
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: clinics and what have you. I lived in a small
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: town just south of Durban called. You're trying to stop me. Yeah,
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: I just wanted to jump in there.
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: Sorry, Simon, I hope you don't mind I keep jumping
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: in but I don't mind at all.
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: But I'm looking at the camera, so I don't always
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: see and I'll see it out of the corner.
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: Of my Sorry, Jeremy, No, no, no, it's fine. I
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: just wanted to point out you're talking about all these
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: protest actions, violence, et cetera, and a lot of that
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: was foreign backed, particularly by the Soviets and Israel as
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: it happens. If you look at some of the key
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: members or the key players, particularly in the June sixteen uprising,
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: all of them are just.
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I'm very self conscious of my Rudolph the
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: Red Nose reindeer that I've got me, you know, all
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: of my shoes. I have a funny way of walking,
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: so I catch my little toes on things all the time.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: And I broke my little my right little toe the
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: other night. And as it happened, I fell and I've
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: hit my face on a stone pillar on my on
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: my verandah, yeah, you did right.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: Well.
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: There's a there's movement now called March and March which
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: there's a thing, a concept called xenophobia. That's what's called
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: in South Africa's where the black South African, poor grassroots
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: people want to eat all of the many millions of
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: foreigners who've come into South Africa in recent decades since
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: the African National Congress took power in nineteen ninety four.
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: And the estimates very I think the only credible estimates
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: are those between five and ten million. I think anything
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: less than that is just silly. And those people are
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: Black Africans and Pakistani's and Bangladeshis who keep shops. So
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: the Black Africans take jobs, truck driving jobs, whatever, farm
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: hand jobs, factory jobs, and the Pakistanis and Bangladeshis dominate
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: the commercial sectors at the grassroots level in the Black
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: African townships of South Africa. So that movement March and
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: March is set to eject all of these people. Thirtieth
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: of June is the deadline day. The promises of violence,
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: the tensions in this country right at the moment are incredible,
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: and that is funded by the widow of an Israeli
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: couple living in Johannesburg. So a violent instigation and revolution
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: and what have you in South Africa is always funded
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: by outside forces. I mean, you know, if you consider
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: the Anglo Boer War, I was saying to one of
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: my brothers the other day, you cannot comprehend the Anglo
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: Boer War why it was the way unless you can
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: comprehend that at the end of it, the British didn't
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: get the mines. The Afrikaners, who were trying to retain
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: the independence of their two republics, didn't get this largest
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: load of gold, lde load in the history of mankind.
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: The Black people didn't get it. It was a proto
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: Israeli outsiders who took all of it. You can't understand
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: World War War unless you can comprehend the snatching of Palestine.
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: It as a vector for the snatching of Palestine. You
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: can't comprehend World War two except unless you can understand
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: that it was a pretext for not the taking of Palestine,
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: but the giving of Palestine and so on. Anyway, Yes, absolutely,
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: you did right. It was outside forces. Listen to this.
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: The apartheid government wasn't just defending itself. It actually explained
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: that the uprising was a work of quote unquote outside
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: agitators and communist infiltrators. It was not a genuine grassroots
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: student revolt. The Sueto police chief at the time told
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: the Selia Commission that the unrest was fomented by outside agitators. Now,
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: it goes on to say something that often gets buried
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: in mainstream media is the extraordinary overrepresentation of Jewish South
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: Africans in the leadership of both the ANC and the
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: South African Communist Party at the time, and Wikipedia notes
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: that Jews were estimated to be overrepresented by as much
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: as two and a half thousand percent in the anti
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: apart ten movement.
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: Well, the Freedom Charter of the African National Congress was
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: drafted by three Jewish people, the only three people who
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: drafted it, all three of the only three.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: Well, the of the names here involved with June sixteen
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: or Joe Slova, Ruth Verst, Ronnie Castro's, Dennis Goldberg, Ray
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: Alexander and Rusty Bernstein, all of them Jews.
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm saying when you talk about overrepresentation,
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: the Freedom Charter, which is the let's say, the constitutional
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: foundation of the triparth line. So there was one force
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: under global communism that was the champion of the destruction
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: of a Part eight and that force was this is
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: a well understood things politically, the African National Congress, philosophically,
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: the South African Communist Party and then grassroots energy wise
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: the Congress of South African Trade Unions and it's known
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: as the Tripartite Alliance, three legs of one plot. But
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: their founding document from many years prior was rafted. You know,
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: one hundred percent of the participants were were Jewish. So yeah,
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: that's a that's just a It.
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: Goes on to say, yeah, let me just read you
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: the last paragraph, so it says, yeah, so it's not
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: that Jewish communist communists caused this the June sixteen uprising.
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: They didn't have to because as you as you said
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: at the beginning, the Afrikaans decree was provocation enough, it
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: was very stupid. But the uprising was then harvested by
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: a Soviet backed Jewish led communist party to further Marxist
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: Lenin revolution. So the students were genuine. The ideological machinery
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: that absorbed them afterward had a very particular gender.
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, But that was always the case, Jeremy. You know,
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: there was never a time when the forces opposing capitalism
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: and conservative Christian values. You know, the philosophical underpinnings of
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: a part eight, which means, for those who don't know,
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: in the Afrikaans language, it means a partners, just a
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: part of the very simple word a partners. We're always
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: going to take advantage, take advantage of disaffection among dock workers,
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: take advantage of disaffection among cane cutters, take a part eight,
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: take advantage of everything. Was always going to be the case,
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: and I don't dispute the fact that there was a
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: heavy element of that, but people failed to recognize that
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: in simple terms, it was to use an an English
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: expression cachanded, an English expression that comes from Afrikaans. I
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: won't translate it because it means it's a much stronger
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: word in Afrikaans than it's distilled meaning in modern English.
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: It was cac handed. You know, if you know that
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: you've got communist agitators in your country, why would you
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: give them such an excuse by saying every black child
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: in South Africa as of tomorrow has to study geometry
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: and science and biology in a language that is alien
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: to them. It was just thoughtless and so they got
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: thoughtless results. And then to fire on children, you know,
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: they did use tear gas, and then the children gathered
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: again and came again. And instead of using rubber bullets
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: and playing the victim and saying, well, you know, we
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: only used rubber bullets because we love the children so
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: much and we didn't want to do any harm, no,
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: immediately live ammunition. What do you think is going to
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: be the result An instance of poor judgment the likes
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: of which you won't often find in your life, and
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: that they were their own worst enemy. From there a
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: Part eight was never going to last, Not with that photograph.
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: Not with the Thames documentary not. I mean, it gets
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: even dumber. You would think that somebody with wisdom would
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: have intervened by this point, you know, some wise guy,
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: some guy who did well at school and university and
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: he's got a master's degree or doctor's degree, would have said, no,
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: let's apply brains to this problem. They made it worse.
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: One of their interview subjects had spoken at length about
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: how she would be arrested and detained and how bad
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: it was going to be for her because she took
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: the risk of doing participating in the Thames television documentary.
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: The next morning, the security piece police sent eleven people
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: to arrest her. The documentary had been filmed, but it
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: hadn't been edited and produced yet, so they were able
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: to end the documentary by listing the actions that had
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: been taken against the people who had appeared in the documentary.
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: And I must say, when I watched it, and I'm
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: a conservative, people accuse me of being, you know, all
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: sorts of Hitler things that I'm not. But I watched
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: that documentary and I thought to ourselves, Heavens above, could
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: you have been dumber? And so immediately in the West
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: you had the sudden. You know, however, many million people
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: prior to the age of the Internet who watched television
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: every single night, night in and night out in Britain,
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: and there would have been French documentaries and maybe German ones,
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: and there was an American one as well, forget by
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: whom it was quite a big. It might have been CBS.
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: So all of a sudden in the West you have now,
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: let's call it, for the sake of a number one
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: hundred million television viewers who may be socially conservative but
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: have have seen through a certain lens a series of events.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: And even if they were one hundred percent pro aparteiate,
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: you could not help if you watch those documentaries. But
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: think to yourself, godly, gee, that's a little bit. You know.
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: You had to You had to fire live rounds at
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: eight year olds three oh three and seven point sixty
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: two millimeters. You had to. You had to fire a
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: large long gun, large caliber long gun rounds. They fired
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: tear gas. Now, I don't know if this is accurate,
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: but I do know that it's not far from accurate.
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: So there may be sources that say we fired thirty
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: tier gas canisters before we resorted to to too large,
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: large caliber rounds. But we do know for certain that
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: it was very limited use of tear gass, not like
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: they spent an entire morning tear gassing the students restraining themselves.
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: They used tear gas according to the eyewitnesses, who may
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: be lying once and once only. So it was let's say,
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: a volley of tear gas canisters, whether that be three
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: or six or nine or fifteen, but a volley within
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: a few minutes, and they didn't resort to it again.
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: When the children dispersed and then regrouped after the tear
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: gas had cleared, they resorted immediately to seven point six, ten,
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: three or three rounds. Man, you know, you know, even
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: as an ultra conservative who is hated by many of
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: the people of this country, I can't help but tell
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: this story in that particular way, because jeepers, you set
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: yourself up, You teed yourself up. It was handled so badly,
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: and so it's become this stay of celebration.
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: That way thinking is, yeah, they called a youth Day, now.
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because of the sacrifice of the youth in getting
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: rid of a part eight. You know, and you can
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: make all sorts of counter arguments. The free healthcare that
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: black people got in South Africa superior to anything in
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: the rest of Africa. No, we're faintly compared, and how
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: atrocious it is now, and the schools, now, how atrocious
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: they are. To get to the money's town is nineteen
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: kilometers away, and the roads form a sort of a circle,
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: with the town being one end and this farm being
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: at the other, just right at the other end. So
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: I can go one of two ways into town, and
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: if I use the one road, I go right through
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: the local apart eight era township, which is where all
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: the black people live to this day. And so I
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: see the grinding poverty all of the time. I see
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: how the houses that the government has built for the
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: people since the end of A Part eight are rubbish,
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: our crap, compared to the four room houses that the
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: aparty system built for the black people. You can say
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: all of that stuff, but you're positioning yourself to lose
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: an argument. It's not cunning and it's not shrewd when
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: you say, oh, you know, Dune the sixteenth was flawed
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: in many ways because the counter argument makes you look
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: like a barbarian. Yes, it was flawed. It was it was.
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: It was communists, and it was anti the Christian system
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: that we had. Yet it was about pulling down the
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: great things that we achieved in the sixties and the seventies.
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: You know, we haven't had a single major damn and
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: when I say major, I don't mean very low, a
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: single one built since the end of A Part eight
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: in this country. Nothing has gotten better. Everything has gotten worse.
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: But the reality is that that was the day that
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: you gave away any moral high ground you might have had,
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: and you did it in a cackhanded fashion. And then
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: it wasn't good enough that you'd been clumsy. You decided
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: to rub salt into your own wounds by giving the
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: producers of these two huge documentaries the opportunity to record
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: that you acted spitefully towards the eyewitnesses who were interviewed.
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: And that's all they did. Those eyewitnesses on camera never
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: gave away more than that they didn't say. And we
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: were building bombs, we wanted to blow up South Africa.
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: That they just said. We were told to go to
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: this march and we were dead keen on it because
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: we were terrified of being forced to have to learn
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: a whole new language. And then comprehend algebra in that language.
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: One hundred percent of the moral high ground was lost
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: in an instant. And yeah, as much as it was
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: a as much as it was a trojan horse for
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: this hateful post modern system. And I can speak at length.
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: I really know what I'm talking about. When it comes
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: to the satanic basis of Marxism. Marx was not an
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: atheist by any stretch of the imagination. What he wanted
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: was and he writes about this in the fourth Critique
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: of Hegel. Not the destruction of religion, that's kind of
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: a lightning rod or a red hearing. It's the destruction
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: of Christianity. And he describes how it's the Father, Son
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: and Holy Spirit that we have to destroy, and it
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: makes a comparison, and he explains it very very very well.
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: It is one hundred percent anti christian it is. It's talmudik.
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: It's deeply Satanic. I'm not pro the dark forces that
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: exploited during the sixteenth You know, anybody who listens to
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: this interviewer and then watches a documentary, the Thames documentary,
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: for instance, is going to say, somebody, I mean, there's
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: a gulf here. So as much as you are dead
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: dead dead dead dead right, And all of my sympathies
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: lie with you, because I know the evil that lies
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: behind it, just like the evil represented by a tortoise
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: that founded the tortoise logo that founded the Labor Party
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: in Britain that is now destroying Britain. I recognize it.
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: But sometimes you have to be intelligent in the way
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: that you go about addressing these things. Otherwise you just
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: look like a baby murderer or something.
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: You know, someone. One of the things that often gets
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: tossed to the side is actually what Hendry Voot wanted.
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: I mean, so we have to mention because he was
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: discussing Bundy education in the nineteen fifties and unfortunately, I
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: think a lot of what he desired got corrupted and
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: destroyed along the way. But I mean, just for clarity,
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: he actually wanted. Well, yes, go on.
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: Afrikaans as a language is very expressive. It's far more
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: expressive than English is. I translated a document some years ago,
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: a substantial document of a few hundred pages, and I
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: could not do justice to the Afrikaans without using another
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: fifty English pages, with the result that Afrikaans can seem
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: like a brutal language, and it's not. It's the reason
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: why Afrikaans music they're about. For the sake of a
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: number about fifty million black people in South Africa, then
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: there about just one a five million colored people, mixed
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: race people, a similar number of Indian people, a similar
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: number of white people, of which sixty percent are Africanists.
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: So by rights, the Afrikaans music industry in South Africa
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: and Afrikaans poetry should be the smallest. Both of them
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: are utterly dominant. Afrikaans is a very very beautiful language.
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: But because it is a straightforward, expressive language in which
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: you don't have to use billions of words to get
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: your idea of cross across, it can sometimes be misconstrued.
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: And Hendrik for Woot spoke in he had adopted in philosophy,
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: so he was a highly intelligent man. But he spoke
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: in simple terms. So those simple terms have now been
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: corrupted to mean other things. But he was basically saying,
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: there will be reconciliation between the races in South Africa,
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: and therefore the approach that we should take should be
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: a separate approach the one the white people of the
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: nineteen sixties are living in the space age first sixties
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: and seventies, living in the space age, the world's first
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: heart transplant. The list of South African achievements at that
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: time was incredible. Nuclear power station to this day, to
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: this day, there's not another nuclear power station on the
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: entire continent of Africa. By contrast, the indigenous or the
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: native races are fresh out of the Stone Age, is
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: what he would have said. There's no way that the
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: two can be reconsulted. So they should adopt different paths,
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: and those parts should be apart from one another, because
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: if the majority is allowed control of the country, then
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: naturally they will pull down. The minority will not be
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: able to pull them up. So we have to do
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: it the other way round.
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: And he also said that you run the risk of
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: oppression of one from the other. And he also said
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: that just like the Afrikaners wanted independence from the British,
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: that there should be independent nations in South Africa.
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, that's why he made the Bantustans. He said,
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: let's have places where the black people entirely dominate. They
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: have their own governments, their own civil administrations, their own
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: broadcasting centers and you name it. And so he had
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: these quasi independent homelands scattered all across South Africa, and
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: they were big. In the province of my birth, for instance,
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: it's a forty forty two or forty seven percent of
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: the province was given to the Zulu people. That's not
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: the parthic that they talk about. You know, only ten
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: percent of the land is owned by back Well, that's
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: just false, it's false. It's a lot. So yeah, he
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: had a very very clever approach to these things. He
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: wasn't a clumsy individual at all. But by that time
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: he'd been murdered. A coterie of mining families, Israeli mining
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: families banded together and murdered him because on that he was,
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: on that given day, was going to give a speech
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: in the Parliament saying, this business of corporate tax applying
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: equally to every single entity in South Africa but not
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: the mines is absurd because the mines are the most profitable, biggest, wealthiest,
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: richest a commercial entity in South Africa. It's as stupid
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: it should be the other way around. If anything, so
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: they will pay corporate tax just like everybody else instead
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: of the ten percent sort of tariff that they paid.
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: You know, they got away with absolute murder, and so
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: they hatched this plot, killed him, and then he was
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: replaced by a guy called John Forster, who was about
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: as delicate in intemperament and intellect as a ball in
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: a china shop. He was just a brash man who
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: traded off the fact that he was strong and he
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: was going to keep the country secure and he wasn't
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: going to take any troubleman, you know, and a certain
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: sector of the segments of the population wanted exactly that.
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: But you know, going through life with your fists bold
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: is I've never seen anybody do well at that. It's
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: approaching everything in life like a ball in a china
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: shop just doesn't work. And so we got those results. Yeah,
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: we're going to smack them. And the guy that he'd
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: appointed as the Minister of Police, Jimmy Krueger, was similar.
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: It was just we'll keep bashing them until they give in,
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: which was the approach that wasn't working because the revolutionaries
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: with the Soviets behind them, were saying, and you can
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: hear these guys talk about it, they're cotton on very quickly.
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: If they are let's say, just to use representative numbers,
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: if the millions of white South Africans and we're twenty
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: five million blacks. Our reservoir are far deeper than theirs,
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: and they depend upon us for labor. So we'll just strike.
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: We'll just strike. And that was really what brought South
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: Africa to its knees. There were all sorts of component
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: elements to the destruction of A Part eight, but the
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: one that I think counted the most was the economic embargo.
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: And coupled with the economic embargo, you know, the center
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: of gravity being smacked is a common center of gravity.
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: Economic embargo and strikes, labor strikes hit the same chink
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: in the armor. They damaged the country's ability to stay
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: financially afloat. And at one point in time, and funnily enough,
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: I was chatting to a guy the other day and
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: I just sold my house because I'm foreseeing a global
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: financial collapse and I didn't want to be holding an
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: asset that was costing me a lot of money because
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: it's not paid off, you know, paying let's say thirty
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: thousand quacha or pounds or euros or dollars. It doesn't
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: matter per month for an asset whose value has fallen
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: to two hundred thousand quatcha whereas it made sense now
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: to realize eight hundred and fifty thousand quatcha when I'm
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: only paying five thousand quatcha on the bond. So I
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: realized that eight hundred and fifty thousand, and I was
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: chatting to a chap about this move that I've made
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: for my own financial welfare in my son's financial welfaes
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: and he said to me, oh, yes, my dad told
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: me about that, the local mechanic. But he's about fifteen
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: years younger than I am. He told me that when
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: he bought this premises, this mechanic's workshop, that the next
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: year the interest rates in South Africa went up to
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: twenty seven percent, and his bond repayments went from one
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: thousand quatcha a month, the quatcha being the Zambian currency
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: I'm just using as an arbitrary proxy for currency, went
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: from a thousand quatcha a month too. I can't remember
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: the number, but five thousand quatcha a month. My point
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: being that they the less subtlety, the less cleverness, the
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: less wisdom that that second generational arguably third or even
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: fourth of a part eight architects applied, the more that
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: they just bludgeoned their way through the problem. The more
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: that they failed because the very very clever Israelis and
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: Soviets behind the African National Congress and the Revolutionary Movement saw, ah,
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: these guys are not using their wits anymore. Fine, we'll
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: let them just keep on smacking us in the face.
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: But we are so many that their fist is going
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: to fall off and there'll be just a bloody stump
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: left long before we're eradicated. And yeah, it worked.
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: What's interesting also about for Wood's assassination is the official
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: story is that he was a typical quote unquote loan gunman,
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: although he didn't you didn't use a gun, and that
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: he was off his head. And I believe he died
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: in a I believe he died in a It was
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: at a psychiatrist water something around nineteen ninety nine or
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: something like that. I can't remember now. Yes, yes, but
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: yes he was kept as a but he wasn't there.
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: But he actually wasn't mentally insane. I think that is
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: a decoy. I think from what I have looked into,
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: he had Israeli backing. There are numerous numerous sources that
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: suggest that he was part of an operation, and in
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: actual fact, some sources even link Britain to the assassination
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: of a wood.
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: My experience is that these conspiracy theories are always very
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: solidly grounded on foundations of granite granite like truth. It's
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: not often that you inquire into the great evil conspiracy
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: theories of the twentieth century and come away satisfied by
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: the official explanation. It's a bit like the moon landings
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: or whatever. You know, But when you look into it closely,
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: to give you one for instance, and you're actually the
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: master of this, I mean, you know a lot more,
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: not necessarily about this example, but about this generally, about
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: viruses and what have you. Then I do. But if
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: you watch I Lunar Americana, you cannot watch that and
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: come away thinking, wow, I'm not convinced. You come away
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: from that exhaustive, exhaustive interrogation into the moon landings, and
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: for it's like a two hours long I forget the
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: exact running time, and for one hundred and twenty minutes
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: you find yourself completely convinced that all of the evidences
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: the contrary wise, and it's like so many of the
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: things that you've done. Jeremy bed On whatever the source.
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: I was going through your library shortly before we started chatting,
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: when the link wasn't working for me, and I was
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: just sort of you know, flicking killing time. You you're
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: the master of this stuff. But you know, the official explanation.
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but that's the point is the official explanation is nonsense.
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: Yes, it's completely flawed. It's you know, it's it's bookmarked,
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: it's got holes in a you know, it's like Swiss, jeez, It's.
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: And and that sort of lone gunman, loan shooter, loan
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: knife man. In this instance, a narrative is always always
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: very flimsy.
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you know, the whole the whole thing. He
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: had some kind of a whatever. He was on a ship,
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: a Greek guy on a ship. He decides to come
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: to South Africa. Then he just decides to get a
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: job working as a porter or a porter or a
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: messenger in parliament. Then he decides to kill the president.
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: You know. Really really just one string of coincidences after another.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: There's no suggestion that there was an elaborate conspiracy, that
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: it was well thought out. No, no, no, it was
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: just a nutcase who was on a ship. He was
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: working as a Stewart on a ship. Then he decided
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: to go to South Africa. Then he decided to work
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: in the parliament. Then he decided to kill the prime
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: not President, the Prime minister, oh no man just on
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: the day that the Prime Minister was He.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: Was also endorsed by Ronnie Castrell's who was the Jewish founder.
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: I think of Quantue Sesway, which was the ANC's military wing.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: I might have that right.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: He was the head of intelligence for the the a
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 2: n C. And as an asside, as you know, people misconstrue,
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: they construe the following to mean that that might be
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: a closet revolutionary in South Africa. If you excel in
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: any field, there's a strong likelihood that you will end
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: up doing work for the government. If you're the best
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: road builder, you're not going to be building roads for
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: Missus Jones. It's the government, whether it be the municipal
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 2: government or the provincial government or the national government. And
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: I was in a field which is the project management
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 2: of what are known in events terms as special projects.
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: So not birthdays in bomb misphahs and dogs, dogs dogs,
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 2: weddings and fashion shows, but big special one off what
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: events you know, and therefore I did a lot of
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 2: work for the African National Congress, up close and personal
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: national days and conferences, the biggest conferences, and he is
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 2: the only, the one and the only African National Congress
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: person that I met who was not to say likable.
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: I've met many A and C people who were very
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 2: very likable on a person to person basis. But the
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 2: only one who ever struck me as competent, the only
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 2: one who seemed to be, you know, to be asking
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: the questions I would ask to have a professional approach. Okay,
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 2: what time is this going to happen? How many you know?
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: It's all for the rest everything is airy, fairy are
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: we're building the road. Yeah, it'll be the longest road
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: in the world, and it'll be the cheapest road in
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: the world, and it'll be the sturdiest road in the world.
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: And it's never any of those three things. It's arguably
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 2: the shortest unbuilt road, you know, the shortest portion built.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: It's arguably the most poorly built road in the world.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: The evidence of such roads, Jeremy, you as a South
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: Africa know that you know these where they put it
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 2: this much tar on a road and the very first
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 2: car that drives over it breaks the road up. You know,
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 2: Ronnie Castle is a very clever, intelligent, cunning, shrewd man.
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: Yes, indeed, I'm looking at the time, Simon. I guess
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: the moral of the story is that June sixteenth public
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: holiday in South Africa. Could it have been the what's
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: the saying? Is it the needle that broke the camel's back?
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: What's that saying?
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: You know, the straw that broke the camel's back. That's
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: the argument that I'm making. It was the pivotal point
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: in time following all of the African liberation movements, where
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: the world was exposed to notions of a dumb idea
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: implemented and enforced brutally on film. It was the moment
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 2: at which the apart eight South Africa lost the moral
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: high ground. The world was a much more conservative place
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 2: then and the powers of the world. This is long
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: before the rise of China, long before the explosion of India.
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: It was a world in which Western Europe and North
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: America were utterly dominant, and Australia, New Zealand and South
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: Africa were almost extensions of that. And you had a
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: part eight South Africa giving to black people more than
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: black people were giving black people in any one of
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: they're now fifty four countries in Africa, then there were
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 2: about fifty than any one of the other fifty countries
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: in Africa were giving to black people. You had a
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: moral high ground. You could say, we have performed the
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: world's first heart transplant. Leave this in our hands. We
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 2: will ensure that these black people have a higher standard
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 2: of life than they could possibly get anywhere in Africa
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 2: by many orders of magnitude. We will give them free
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 2: healthcare in the finest hospitals in Africa. We will transplant
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 2: their hearts for free in the best African hospitals in
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: the world. And in one moment, that argument failed. It
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: didn't fail in the fifties and the sixties or the
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: early seventies, but it did fail when it was pushed
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: too hard, when the people who had the upper hand
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: thought that we really, really, really, really really clever to
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 2: take it a step too far, When the most rudimentary
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 2: wisdom would have told you that it was a dumb
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: idea to try to force any populous in the world
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 2: to learn scientific subjects in not a first or a
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: second but a third language. The counter argument, you can say,
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 2: you can you can make it until you blew in
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 2: the face. Yes, but we're not teaching them to a
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: very high standard because we only need them for labor.
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 2: It doesn't matter. If you took all of the whites
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 2: of South Africa and you forced them to learn rudimentary
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 2: stuff in Russian, none of us would ever get an education.
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: And that's what we did. And when they didn't like it,
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: we used live ammunition. I don't want to say large
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 2: calibers if it's a flipping mortar or something, but it wasn't.
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: It wasn't. It wasn't point two ammunition, triple two or
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 2: two two three. It was seven point six two you
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 2: know millimeter, I mean three eight and three three. It
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 2: was on a child this big it was. We kissed
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 2: our chances goodbye, and then, as if it wasn't enough,
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 2: we sent eleven men to arrest women. And it was
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 2: on television in the West all because those women just
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 2: gave an eyewitness account. They didn't say anything polemic, nothing,
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: nothing was I was standing on the corner and I
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 2: saw this, and then that happened. Boom, You're going to jail.
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: It made us look like the clumsiest assholes in the
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 2: on the planet.
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: Well, I appreciate a more nuanced view, Simon, and that's
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: why I love chatting to you. How can I keep
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 1: up with you?
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 2: I am a paid staff member of this State Landers organization.
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 2: I'm able to do these interviews because I receive a salary.
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 2: I'm not a lone gunman. I'm not an agent. I
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 2: am a gainfully employed, faithful, loyal servant to my organization,
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 2: and I have a good boss. If anybody would like
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 2: to support the work that we do, please visit Stateluonders
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 2: dot org and scroll down to the bottom of the
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 2: page make a donation there. It's vitally important and we're very,
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 2: very grateful for the support that allows us to continue
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 2: to do the work that we do for the conservative
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 2: Christian minority of South Africa, the few of us hold
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 2: outs who are trying to hang on to values that
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 2: go back centuries instead of being catapulted into this mad
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 2: postmodernist humanist world that is being dragged to hell as
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 2: we see all over the show Left Darts in center, Simon, Southlanders,
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 2: we must always clarify it's Afrikaans.
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 1: It means Southerners, but it doesn't really translate as as
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: elegantly into English.
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 2: I'm afraid no, no, no, it doesn't translate well, but yes,
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: and and just to be clear, saith Landers sui d
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 2: landers dot org is English language, so people won't won't struggle.
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 2: The name is Afrikaans, but the website is in English
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 2: as always.
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: Simon Rosh, thank you for joining me in the Strangers.
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 2: No, Jeremy, it's always a pleasure. I say thank you.