Latest / The Bold Lounge / Minda Harts: Navigating Complex Conversations for Bold Change

Transcript

Minda Harts: Navigating Complex Conversations for Bold Change · The Bold Lounge

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bold Lounge Podcast.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: My name is Lee Burgess and I will be your host.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: If you're anything like me, you love hearing inspiring stories of people who have gone on bold journeys and made a positive impact in the world.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: This podcast is all about those kinds of stories.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Every week, we'll hear from someone who has taken a leap or embarked on an extraordinary journey.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: In addition to hearing their stories, we'll also learn about their bold growth mindset that they use to make things happen.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: Whether they face challenges or douse along the way, they persisted and ultimately achieved their goals.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: These impactful stories will leave you feeling motivated and inspired to pursue your own bold journey.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: I believe everyone has a bold story waiting to be freed.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: Tune in and get ready to be inspired.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bold Lounge.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: Today I have Minda Hartz.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: She is a best-selling and award-winning author of the memo what women of color need to know to secure a seat at the table as well as right within, how to heal from racial trauma in the workplace and her first YA book, which I think is so cool you Are More Than Magic.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: She is a highly sought-after speaker and thought leader, and she's also assistant professor of the public service at NYU's Robert F Wagner Graduate School of Public Service.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: Thank you for coming onto the Bold Lounge, minda.
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: Thanks, Lee, for having me excited to be in conversation with you.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: So we're going to jump right into being bold, and I would love to hear what bold means to you.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: What's your definition of bold?
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: Oh, I love this word.
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: I love the word bold because it's something that we can choose or not to choose to do, and so I think being bold, in my definition, is being deliberate and no fear, being deliberate and no fear Right.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: So deliberately, kind of going into the next step, taking the right left.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: It's an unknowing right, like there's an unknown to being bold.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: Everything isn't guaranteed, everything isn't going to be successful, at least in my world.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: You know you're going to fail and you're going to learn from it.
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: So I love that deliberate and it sounds like a little bit with what you're saying.
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: It's a choice.
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: Being bold is a choice, just like we choose to make certain decisions.
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: So what comes?
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: to your mind when you think about being deliberate and walking into fear, or being fearless, not letting it stop you.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: What's a moment of boldness for you that's memorable?
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: When I think about.
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: You know, obviously we've all had moments where we even question was I being bold or you don't realize that you're being bold?
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: But I think for me it's probably.
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: When I decided to speak up for myself in the workplace, after experiencing a lot of micro and macro aggressions, I felt like I didn't have any agency.
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: You know, I didn't want to rock the boat Many of us hear that in our workplaces and so I realized that I had to be bold.
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: I had to show up for me.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: I can't control how other people are showing up or not being bold, but for me, having a conversation about the inequality that I was experiencing and then taking that bold step to leave my job and start entrepreneurship and then that day when I left, I didn't know what I was going to do.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: But now I'm three bestselling books in writing, my fourth.
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: So being bold didn't just benefit me, but I think being bold benefited others as well.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: So there's a few things on pack there, so a couple things.
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: So how old were you when you made that decision that I have a voice, I'm going to say something that might go against the convention or the particular politics of an organization, or what's expected of a person like me?
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: You know, being a woman, a woman of color, like what, you know what is expected.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: I think there's that sense of that.
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: How old were you?
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: 35.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: Okay, and it was a defining moment.
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: It sounds like I'm claiming my space, right, absolutely, and no one's going to take it away from me.
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: What was different in that moment versus?
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: I'm sure you experienced microaggressions before then.
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: I'm sure you had inequities occurring throughout your entire life, and so look what was different about that moment that made you take action, because I think that's also something that's bold is actually taking action on a feeling or I've got to do something different.
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good point, lee, because, listen, walking out of your house, you never know what you're going to experience, right?
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: So there's obviously opportunities to choose boldness if you desire.
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: But I think in the workplace, especially at the time, I was the only woman of color, only black woman, so there was some fear about what being bold in this environment would look like and would I lose my job.
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: You know how do I do it?
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: Do I say what I mean without saying it?
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: Mean, I mean there was a lot going in to that, but in that moment I realized that I was good enough to deserve it, I was good enough to show up for myself, I was good enough to activate my voice.
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: And I kept telling myself over the course of the few years that, oh, I don't have a voice.
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: But I had always had my voice, always had it, but I had to decide how I wanted to use it.
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: And in that moment I realized that if I don't, if I'm not bold, then this environment will continue to stay the same right, I have to be bold for me, and the future means that come behind me, and I really leaned into the fact that it wasn't just about me, but it's about the, the larger issue at hand and I want to make the space safer for, you know, women, black and brown women that come behind me.
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: So by claiming your space, by being bold, you actually have inspired other people.
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: You've helped people understand that they're not alone.
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: You've inspired people to take their own action and to say enough.
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to do this, I'm going to speak out.
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: I'm going to talk about the inequities.
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: I'm going to talk about how, this feeling, I'm going to talk about how, yes, that is a microaggression when it comes to claiming the space, so that your book, particularly the memo what women of color need to secure a seat at the table what did that book mean?
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: So that particular book came out in 2019.
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: So what has changed since you wrote that book, the intention of it until now, and what is still unacceptably still happening?
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it's interesting with the memo when it first came out there and you might be surprised, and some of your listeners might be surprised to hear this, but it was the first book published by a major publisher about the experiences of women of color in the workplace.
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: So I was writing a book that was very much taboo to the conversation.
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: There's plenty of books about women in the workplace, but it hadn't been done in the way that I wrote it, and so I was nervous to be bold, to talk about the things that women of color talk about in our group chats, you know, where we talk about it at brunch but we don't talk about it loud or we just don't even talk about it at all.
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: And so for me, being one of the first and sometimes when you're being bold and you're the first, it can come with fanfare or it can come with you know other things yeah, not so much fanfare, not so much fanfare so I was really really nervous.
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: But what I realized was part of being bold is being courageous, and I thought about you know who's going to benefit from my courage?
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: Because you and I both are beneficiaries of so many women that have come before us.
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: We get to benefit and we get to, you know, dream bigger and activate our dreams in ways women could only dream of, right, but we get to live reality.
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: And so I thought this book has to come out.
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: I have to write this book because of this and even the hurdles of writing the memo at the time there were five major publishers and four said no.
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: They said there's no, there's no audience for this book.
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: And it's like, oh, this isn't a problem, right, this isn't a problem.
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: This is, these are isolated situations.
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: And then now fast forward.
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: You know, five years later, we realize that these are issues, right, we've seen the racial injustice, we're having the conversations that we should have had probably a long time ago and I'm glad that the memo could be part of that conversation, of solutions, right?
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: So, yes, we know that these are challenges, but part of being bold is being willing to also resolve and solve.
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, saying we have a problem that we need to solve, that we need to make better, we need to have authentic action and not just words and checkboxes and things like that that go along with it.
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: So I thought it was interesting.
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: I've heard one of your interviews about how you know publishers are saying this isn't an issue, that no one wants to read this or this isn't something coming up.
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: It's this all colleges playing what it is.
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: It means not knowing, which means ignorance.
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: Yes, right, so there's, there's a not knowing about something that should be known by now.
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: So when you think about when you wrote it in 19, if you wrote that book today, in 2024, what would be different about the book?
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: What would be the same, unfortunately.
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that what's different is that back in 2019, before the, in 2020, before the, you know, social climate changed in many ways.
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: I wasn't able, when companies would book me, they would say, hey, don't talk about race, don't bring it up.
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: You know, here's the words we're not talking about.
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: In the workplace, it was very, being very timid, not being bold, being kind of scared and cautious to talk about some of these.
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: You know big issues, and so race was one of them, right, religion was one of them, politics was one of them.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: And then you know, kind of the transition changed and now we do get to talk about race, gender identity in ways that we didn't before, which makes me happy.
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: That means, are we at our career Nirvana?
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: No, but we're able to talk about bold topics.
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because you can't.
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: You can't confront sexism, racism, homophobia, any of those things, ageism, if we don't acknowledge that these things could be issues.
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: Right, and two things can be true you may, someone may, work in an environment and never experience those things, but then there's somebody at work that experiences those things each and every day.
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: So the goal isn't to like shame anybody, but the goal is to remove barriers so that everybody can do their best work, and so if I wrote the book today, I think that I would be able to use, you know, bolder language, be able to talk about things in a way, because now there's a little understanding.
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: People understand what equity means, I think, a little bit better today than they did four years ago.
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: Five years ago, yeah, so it's been incremental movement, right, yeah, in that sense.
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: So when we think about kind of you know, being able to talk about something that is you know, shelley Zala says we need to get comfortable with being uncomfortable.
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: I love that statement.
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: I don't know if her quote, but she says it a lot, so I attribute her with that and she calls herself the chief troublemaker, right, in the sense of like bringing up things that are unpopular, like equity, like pay equity, like bias, bringing up not enough representation of women in certain fields.
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: When you think about when we need to have conversations which can be uncomfortable, like we want to make things better, but it makes you know, maybe it's a hard conversation to have what can we do together to help those conversations one happen and then be fruitful, like have some action, have some you know, in any way, maybe the action is just understanding, right, you know, hopefully it's bigger than that, but I think understanding can lead to a lot of things that are actionable.
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: I agree with that.
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: I would you suggest we have some of the uncomfortable conversations that need to happen more often.
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, more often.
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: I think when we normalize what oftentimes we call courageous conversations, difficult conversations, it's because a lot of us don't have good conflict resolution skills, right.
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: But if we were better communicators and we delve into topics that have typically been taboo, then we normalize that these are just conversations that we have, right.
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: So I wrote the book, the memo, in particular, yes, for women of color, but I also wrote it for those who are aspiring to be better allies, those who manage women of color, those who work alongside, because you're never going to know what it's like to be a black woman in the workplace, but what you do know is humanity, dignity, equity and respect.
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: Right, and realizing that that person is somebody's daughter, it's somebody's wife, it's somebody's sister, niece, you know a friend, and if that was someone that you loved, how would you want someone to show up for them?
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: Right, you would want someone to remove barriers for them in the workplace instead of creating more.
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: And so when I talk about these things, I think if we take race out of it, we take gender identity, those things out of it, and we make it about humanity, how do we restore humanity and dignity to people and respect?
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: And I think that's how we approach it right, even when we make a mistake in having a conversation, because I think what stumps people from being boldly is that they think they're going to get it wrong.
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: Right, I don't want to say the wrong thing, but I know for me I would rather someone say the wrong thing 10 times trying than say nothing and never try Right exactly, it's like hanging in there through the awkward or the maybe unknowing of a conversation.
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: It's a bold conversation and I love what you just said.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: I'd rather have you get it wrong 10 times and keep trying than to never have the conversation, because then no one learns, no one understands, no one can be empathetic, which I think you and I talked a little bit about this but I think that's part of the pieces of being human, is being empathetic and understanding that.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: That pieces around dignity and equity and understanding and humility, and sometimes I'm wrong, you know, and I can be wrong and we can still have a conversation and I can learn right.
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: But that sounds so easy, right, right, it sounds so easy and I bet you and I could probably sit in a room and learn a lot and I would learn a lot from you.
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: But why isn't it easier for some?
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, let's be honest, If it were easy, we'd all be doing it, but I think we've gotten comfortable in not talking about the tough things and I think that's what's keeping us from getting to better.
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: I hear a lot of people say Leanne, you've probably heard it too oh, I just wish we could get back to normal.
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: We're in our new normal right.
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: That the goal isn't to go backwards, it's to get better.
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: So when people say let's go back to normal, I said no, the goal should be better.
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: So what would one small bold move, one small courageous act toward this conversation help?
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: Ok, you're not ready.
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: Read a book like the memo.
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: Read a book like from another person that's talking about some of those things, so that you're a little more equipped, more educated to be able to go into the conversation.
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: And I think, again, if we root it in humanity and also part of the empathy piece is humanizing people.
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: So let's say, for something I loved at the beginning, before we started, as you asked me, the pronunciation for Minda, just to make sure that you got it right, and I appreciated that because you humanize the experience.
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: And I think sometimes we think, oh, certain things are not a big deal, but you don't never know.
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: If I've been on five calls before I got to this and somebody kept calling me Linda, right, you know what I mean.
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: Like it's what.
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: It may not be a big deal to some people, but to be seen, to be valued, to be respected, that's a game changer, and don't we all want that experience?
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: And so I think that, again, if we root it in.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: You know what.
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: They're human, just like me.
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: They want the American dream, just like me.
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: And I think if we root it in that you don't have to have read all the books, listen to all the things, know all the language and all the letters after DEI, you don't have to know those things, but if we just root it in the empathy part, the humanity, like I want to get to know this person.
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: And I think, the more that we have these conversations, it invites people in, because two things can be true you might not have meant harm, but that impact could be harmful, right, and so we want to make sure that, again, we're just acknowledging when we've made a misstep and then recommitting to equity again.
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because I believe in good.
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: So I believe no one sets out to hurt others, but we may inadvertently do it, we may mistakenly do it Like we may think we'll be doing the best thing for someone when it's actually harming them.
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: And again, it's being open to like maybe I didn't do that the way it should have been done or maybe I didn't understand it.
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: Tell me more, right, what did that mean?
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: And then, from the perspective of just being able to be human, means you're vulnerable.
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: Yes, it means that you understand that you have flaws.
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: You have things you're really good at and things that you understand really well, and you also understand there's things that are gaps.
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: Yes, you don't understand.
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: So that vulnerability piece, I think, is really to me.
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: Vulnerability and empathy are probably two of the things that are harder for people to do, which might lead to us not being able to have those tougher conversations, those uncomfortable ones, so to speak.
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a muscle, it's a flex right, you have to flex it If you're not used to it.
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: It's just like if you're not used to asking for help, right.
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: A lot of people are very independent.
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: They don't want to ask for help.
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: So even on the smallest things they're like nope, I would rather hold 15 grocery bags before I call off somebody to help me.
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: Come and get them One trip.
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: One trip.
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: You know, and I think we look at it that way oh, I don't want to get it wrong, I don't want the help.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: In order to feel comfortable in these uncomfortable conversations or situations, we have to flex that, right.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: What would it look like to say, ok, I typically wouldn't call and ask for help or I wouldn't acknowledge that I got it wrong.
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: But let me do that this time, right, like?
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: Prime example is when I was in a traditional workplace.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: Sometimes people would get my name wrong, right, and I know they didn't intend to, but they'd see me in the hallway and they might call me Mindy many times.
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: And then maybe I'll say you know what it's actually, minda, I just wanted to let you know.
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: And then I'd see them in the hallway, lee, and then they'd go the other way, right, because they were embarrassed or they felt, or whatever, and it's like you know what that's when we shy away from things.
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: But what I would have appreciated is it's Minda, right, and we have a laugh about it and we move on, right, and those sorts of things.
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: I think we just have to bring it back to.
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: I don't think, like you said, anybody wakes up and says who can I harm today, right, but we're recommitting when we get it wrong, because we're all humans, we're gonna get it wrong, but it's recommitting to making someone else feel like they've been hurt and the empathy and vulnerability is there to have the conversation, you know.
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: Lastly, you talk about being bold.
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: It takes a lot of courage for someone to be bold, right To tell you that, hey, this might have landed this way for me and I think it's gonna require us.
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: One other thing to have these type of conversations is be a courageous listener, right, be willing to allow somebody to listen to what they're saying and not make it personal, like they're telling me this so that I get better.
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: Right, we're not going back to normal, that we get better, and I think, if we look at it from that perspective, then it just makes it a little easier, I think.
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: That's a really good point.
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: I think people take it personal, like, oh, you mean I did that, or, you know, you're generalizing across everyone in the world, or everyone in my department or everyone on my team or whatever it may be, and so I'm taking this very personal, whether I'm the leader or a member, and it isn't personal at all.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: It is important and it's important that you hear it for me, like if someone would take something personal, I'll be like well, what's?
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: There's a truth in it.
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: You know and I'm sure I've taken things personal when I don't Absolutely I'm a big empath and like I pick up on a lot of things and I take it a lot of things and sometimes some of them should not come in, they need to stay out, and so, like, how do we make this tough conversation not personal?
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: Any hacks or guides that we can like really be open to having a conversation and not take it like it's all about me, because it's not, it's all about us.
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we can be very self centered when it comes to those sorts of things, and what the hack, the hack that I use is, I say you know how?
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: We say feedback as a gift.
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: I often sell myself, okay, if somebody.
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: It took a lot of courage, especially if there's power dynamics, for somebody to come and tell me this.
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: So let me give them the same respect, right, and listen to what they have to say rather I agree or disagree and I realized that they're telling me this because they want me, they want our relationship to be better, right, they're giving me this information so that I don't keep making this mistake.
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: They're giving me this information so that I can decide if I'm going to be better or not.
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: Right, and so that's what, how I take it in.
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: I want to remove barriers for people instead of create more.
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: So I take myself out of and say they told me this so that I can make things better for for our relationship.
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: So I'm going to take this as I'm glad I have this information, because if I didn't have this information, then they would continue to have maybe bad experiences with me when they can communicate with me, right, and so I just say like this is information for me so that I know how to engage with them in a healthy way.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: So that's how I try to frame it and again, it's a muscle.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: You know, the first time somebody tells you something that may you may agree or disagree with you, saying, okay, why are they telling me?
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: Because clearly I've been, you know, going back to the name, I've been calling them the wrong name.
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: They're not trying to make me feel bad about it or shame me, but they're telling me so that I can get it right.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: Right and I think, again reminding ourselves why they're telling us this.
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: You know, right, the why behind the message right.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: It's not to point the finger.
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: It's not to make you feel bad, it's not to make you feel like you're not smart.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: It's to say, hey, we have something to learn.
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that learner's mindset, like what happened that went left, or what happened that went right, to like, wow, that was good.
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: We talk a lot about what's not working, but sometimes we can also learn from from what is working or an example, yep.
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: But when we think about empathy, in one of the posts today from Marcus Collins talked about three levels of empathy.
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: So the first one is semantic empathy.
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: It's really reaction that oh, someone slammed their hand in the door, oh, I feel you, are you okay?
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: Like, oh, I've been there.
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: It's like automatic, right, it's automatic empathy for someone's experience.
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: The second one is effective empathy, which is like the golden rule do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: It's really like I want them to treat me this way because that's how I want to be treated.
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: The third one, which is, like he called it, the platinum role, which is the cognitive empathy, which is radical empathy, meaning that do unto others as they would want, done unto them.
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: You don't think about yourself, and that's a level that I bet a lot of people don't get to.
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: I don't know, do you?
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: agree with that.
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: I 1000% yeah.
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: So they definitely probably have this semantic and that automatic.
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: That's how that happens.
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: Some practice the golden rule and think about those things, but probably there's another level for people that get to this level of cognitive empathy and we have cognitive empathy.
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: I think it creates space for us to truly just think about what is the experience of the other person, what is the ripple effect of our action?
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: What is it that we can learn?
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: And then who's watching?
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: You said something very important as a few minutes ago, which was I made that move when I left that company and became an entrepreneur and a best line author of three books, and creating ripples left and right that now impact the future, mend us right, you know so from the particulars of like, your ripple effect goes in all direction, but one of the things is for the younger generation to see that they can have a voice and they can have that space, which I think is why you wrote your YA book.
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, tell me a little bit about the why behind your more than magic.
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: Yes, thank you for asking.
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: When I wrote the memo and I seen how many you know women and professional settings needed to hear, needed the reminder that they have their voice, that they deserve all the good things that their careers have in store for them.
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: I realized that we didn't need that information necessarily when we got into the workplace.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: We needed it before we got to the workplace, right?
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: So those interactions that you have in high school, college, junior high school, that kind of set the tone for who you might show up as when you do get to a traditional workplace, you know, and how our voices as young girls, it's so important for us to cultivate those and nurture it and not be shut out.
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: Right, how you even negotiate with a teacher when you've gotten a grade and you're like, wait a second, that this doesn't seem in alignment with what it knows before.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: Or you get your first job, even as a babysitting your babysitter you know what does negotiating look like, and so I just wanted to have tools in our young adults toolkit so that the skills and the competencies that they're flexing in their you know on the fields and in their classrooms, that they're prepared when they enter into college and beyond.
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: So they know themselves a little bit more and they're not just waiting to find their voice when they get to.
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: You know 21.
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: Right, yeah, when we think about empathy in the younger generation, what do you think we're not understanding when it comes to them seeing that there is a space at the table, that ambition gap of seeing people like them, seeing women, seeing women of color in the spaces and places that they belong, but it's hard for them to see?
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: What do we not understand from the empathy perspective?
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: So if we're practicing that cognitive empathy meaning do unto others as they would want done unto them what can we get better at?
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, listening to them right, because there is an empathy gap, I think, between maybe our generations and some of the younger ones coming behind us.
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: When I get invited to speak at a company, I'll have some more seasoned individuals say, those Gen Z's or whatever.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: They just they haven't paid their dues or they ask for things that they shouldn't.
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: And I say wait a second.
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: I said they found their voice.
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: Maybe they need some coaching in terms of how to ask and how to navigate and strategize.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: I said, but the one thing we shouldn't do is shut them down.
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: We should listen.
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: They're asking for things.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: Now that we waited 10 years to ask for that, we could actually learn from them in many cases.
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: And so I think it goes back to what we've been talking about courageous listening right, being a bold listener to say, okay, why are they saying this?
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: Why are they asking for it?
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: Does it really?
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: You know, what do they actually need for me to maybe help them on this and I think that's what's going to help bridge all the generations is for us to actually listen to each other and practice that cognitive empathy, because, at the end of the day, people just want to be seen, they want to be heard.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: They want to be valued.
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: Doesn't matter if you're 1929, 59, 79, or 89, we all want the same thing, right, and I think that's the part of it to remind ourselves that we're all human and we all have that need to be seen, to be vulnerable and to be respected.
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: One of the things you pointed out is sometimes it's just the smallest things like asking how you pronounce your name.
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: Like to me that's just automatic.
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: My name gets pronounced all the time Lee, leigh, leegee, burgess was the worst one.
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: Where did that come from?
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: Don't pronounce every letter, but I mean it's just something as simple as that, which can mean a lot.
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: So I think one of the things is bold moves, empathetic moves, moves that help us have these uncomfortable conversations, can be small ones.
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: They don't have to be these huge swings or this big measurement although, hey, I'm all for that but it can be in our daily actions and we all have a responsibility for that.
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah Right, absolutely so.
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: I think one of the things when we think about that is just being able to understand that our actions have effect.
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: So, when you think about all the research you've done and the conversations you've had, is there any particular action or actions that are small, like people think, oh, that's no big deal, but they're bigger than we think or that we could think more about before we do certain things?
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think what I found is like you said.
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: I think some of us feel like we have to climb on top of Mount Everest and do the Grand Act right, but it's the small micro acts that really make people feel seen.
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: And I think, just, for example, because I do so much in the workplace, is I tell managers when's the last time you asked everyone on your team what do you need from me to do your best work?
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: Just opening up that question to say, oh, actually I need more feedback or I'd love more professional development opportunities.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: Now, some managers may ask that of their favorites all the time.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: Right, but going around and making sure that we're investing in everybody and it's just those simple acts, asking the right questions, so asking better questions to get the answers to the why and I think that that's what I hope we'll do be more curious.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: We'll lean into certain conversations with more curiosity than fear.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a chapter in the book where I talk about the connections from being bold to in the ownership chapter and it's really courage leads to confidence, leads to agency, like in those things I think are very connected and they lead to you making a bold move.
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: But might be loud, it might be quiet, it just depends on what your moves are.
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: So I think it's resonating with me when I'm hearing you talk.
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: Is you know?
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: It's about listening, it's about being present, it's about being open to being wrong Right.
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: It's important for people to hear that these are not things that cost a lot, they're free.
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: They only need $100,000 grants to like have it.
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: We just need to be intentional about it.
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so like guidance to organizations and individuals who are working towards having a more empathetic, humanized workplace and, ultimately, outside of work, in the world, what are some of the things that organizations can do?
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: To start, like you said, ask that question, which is what can I do to support your goals?
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: you know and understand kind of you at a different level and maybe you're not the person that's always in my office, so you're someone I rarely talk to, but I'm going to right.
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: No, stop by and pop in like making that effort.
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: Are there any other things that come to mind where we can just start some of those actions that lead to the next ripple, to maybe having some of the conversations that need to happen?
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, going back to agency, right, when we're having even some of these conversations, seeing who's missing from the room, right, you know, and I think sometimes we again get so siloed in the conversations that we have, and that relational equity, and I think that's where I hope we get to.
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: You know, there was a gentleman in my former life his name was Chuck and he sponsored me, right, we never made it an official thing.
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: He just showed up and spoke my name in the rooms that I wasn't in, and I think those are that he looked around the room and said, hey, minda should be here, right, not because I was his favorite, because I'd been doing the work prior to it.
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: But I think part of it again is we don't want to solve problems for people who are not present, right, and and we're engaging them in a way, and I think making sure looking around the room and having being bold to say, hey, why are we talking about this group and we don't have anybody represented on the team that is from that, that's a bold move, and I think those are the sorts of things that we have to do if we want to make the spaces that we occupy better.
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: Who's missing?
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: Let's ask the right questions, let's get to the solutions, let's remove barriers for people because, again, our success is not a solo sport.
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, wonderfully said.
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: I love to end on that honestly.
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: So that's a great way to end all the information around Minda contacting her to work with your organization or individually and her books are below in the episode notes.
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much, minda, for being on the Bold Lounge.
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to the Bold Lounge podcast.
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: Through the continuum of bold stories vulnerability to taking a leap you will meet more extraordinary people making a positive impact for others through their unique and important story.
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: By highlighting these stories, we hope to inspire others and share the journey of those with a bold mindset.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: We hope you've enjoyed this podcast and look forward to sharing the next bold journey with you.