Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: Courtney Clenney, OnlyFans Model, Charged in Stabbing Murder

Transcript

Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: Courtney Clenney, OnlyFans Model, Charged in Stabbing Murder · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:08
Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan, Miami, Florida is probably
0:20
Speaker 1: one of the most beautiful locations in the country that
0:23
Speaker 1: I've personally visited. You know, you know, some people describe
0:26
Speaker 1: locations like it as saying that everywhere you look is
0:31
Speaker 1: essentially a postcard, you know, that kind of beautiful emerald
0:35
Speaker 1: green water in the pure white sand and palm trees,
0:38
Speaker 1: things that we don't normally see in these locations that
0:42
Speaker 1: we live in around the country. And I think when
0:47
Speaker 1: we begin to think about you seek a place like
0:50
Speaker 1: that to find peace and happiness, and you try to
0:55
Speaker 1: live in that environment as if it is paradise. Life
1:01
Speaker 1: gets in the way, he doesn't You begin to suddenly
1:04
Speaker 1: realize that within paradise it can completely turn into a
1:10
Speaker 1: horror show. Today we're going to talk about an only
1:13
Speaker 1: fans model and her boyfriend who wound up in the
1:20
Speaker 1: middle of a blood bath. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and
1:26
Speaker 1: this is Body Backs. Jackie Howard, executive producer with Crime
1:35
Speaker 1: Stories Nancy Grace. I gotta tell you, every time I've
1:40
Speaker 1: ever been to Miami, I've often thought, you know, what
1:43
Speaker 1: in the world do you have to do? What kind
1:45
Speaker 1: of what kind of money do you have to make
1:48
Speaker 1: to live in a place like this. It's absolutely gorgeous.
1:52
Speaker 1: You've got, you know, the salt air, You've got the
1:54
Speaker 1: beautiful beach and can go walk up and down. It's exotic.
1:57
Speaker 1: It looks like you're in the middle of the Caribbean,
1:59
Speaker 1: and I guess some kind of a way you are.
2:01
Speaker 1: But with Courtney Clinney and her boyfriend, it was anything
2:06
Speaker 1: but perfection. It did end up being a nightmare, certainly
2:11
Speaker 1: for this couple. Joe Courtney Clinney is an Only Fans
2:15
Speaker 1: model and she has two million followers on Instagram, and
2:19
Speaker 1: this may have been in part which paid for the
2:22
Speaker 1: lifestyle that you're talking about. Joe Only Fans is a
2:26
Speaker 1: subscriber account, and with two million followers, paying between five
2:32
Speaker 1: and fifty dollars a month for access to her content
2:37
Speaker 1: would certainly make a comfortable lifestyle possible. Courtney Clinney was
2:43
Speaker 1: dating Christian obum Selly. They had been living together for
2:46
Speaker 1: a couple of years and inside this apartment that day
2:51
Speaker 1: he left to go get Subway to get them some lunch.
2:55
Speaker 1: During that time, Clenny made a couple of Instagram posts
3:00
Speaker 1: she called her mother, but when ob and Selly came back. Reportedly,
3:04
Speaker 1: an argument ensued. We don't know what, but the argument
3:09
Speaker 1: resulted in Courtney Clenny reportedly stabbing Christian OBM Selly and
3:17
Speaker 1: we find out later that there had been multiple reports
3:21
Speaker 1: of arguments coming from that household. But the biggest image
3:26
Speaker 1: that is standing out from this alleged murder is a
3:30
Speaker 1: photo of Clenny standing on their balcony and a bra
3:36
Speaker 1: covered in blood. For you, for forensic scientists, for a
3:40
Speaker 1: crom scene investigators, that's absolute gold because what do we
3:45
Speaker 1: associate most with death investigation? I think that for the
3:49
Speaker 1: average person on the street, other than simply a dead body,
3:54
Speaker 1: it's going to be blood because it's one of those
3:56
Speaker 1: things when you take a look at it, you think
4:00
Speaker 1: about origin. You know, why is there such a huge
4:05
Speaker 1: volume of blood? Why do you have it on your person?
4:08
Speaker 1: You know from whence did it come? Because you know,
4:11
Speaker 1: blood is essentially, aside from certain medical conditions, is only
4:16
Speaker 1: going to be present as a result of some type
4:19
Speaker 1: of trauma. And look, I've seen these images of Clinty
4:23
Speaker 1: that were you know, put out there, you know by
4:26
Speaker 1: TMZ we're actually quite striking. And for people that are
4:31
Speaker 1: interested in true crime. This is something these are This
4:35
Speaker 1: is a rare bird's eye view and it's literally a
4:37
Speaker 1: bird's eye view because you can see it from whoever
4:41
Speaker 1: shot this video was in an elevated position looking down
4:45
Speaker 1: toward this balcony on this you know, on this apartment area.
4:51
Speaker 1: And I want to back up just for a second.
4:53
Speaker 1: We were talking about, you know, kind of some of
4:55
Speaker 1: the details, and you know, people making money. It has
5:00
Speaker 1: the alleged that the apartment that they were living in
5:06
Speaker 1: at that time, if I'm not mistaken, was roughly in
5:11
Speaker 1: the just hold onto your hat for a second, it
5:15
Speaker 1: was roughly in the ten thousand dollars per month nut
5:20
Speaker 1: that they had to make every month. Just let that
5:23
Speaker 1: sink in just for a second. Can you imagine having
5:27
Speaker 1: to come up with ten k every month just to
5:29
Speaker 1: put a roof over your head? I mean, you know,
5:31
Speaker 1: for average folks like us, you know, that's that's quite
5:34
Speaker 1: a big number. You know, you're up in the thin air,
5:36
Speaker 1: so you can only imagine there's a lot of pressure
5:40
Speaker 1: in this environment to be able to generate that kind
5:43
Speaker 1: of dough in order to live essentially, and that's you know,
5:48
Speaker 1: that's that's just to have the roof over your head.
5:50
Speaker 1: That doesn't account for everything else that that's involved with this.
5:54
Speaker 1: So this is some type of lifestyle you know that
5:57
Speaker 1: they're leading. And then when you put it in the
6:00
Speaker 1: context that there has been a homicide that has been
6:06
Speaker 1: committed in this ten thousand dollars per month rental, all right,
6:12
Speaker 1: and you're looking down on it, you get this kind
6:15
Speaker 1: of bird's eye view and peek behind the curtains, if
6:19
Speaker 1: you will, and you can see her seated there. It
6:21
Speaker 1: looks like she might be cuffed, seated on the floor,
6:24
Speaker 1: leaning back against the wall, and you can see dogs
6:27
Speaker 1: or a dog I think, kind of walking up toward
6:30
Speaker 1: her and then walking away. And even at that distance
6:34
Speaker 1: with a grainy video, you can appreciate how much bloods
6:37
Speaker 1: covering her. So it's an odd thing. And you can
6:42
Speaker 1: see the police working in there. You can kind of
6:45
Speaker 1: get faint images of uniform cops kind of moving about
6:49
Speaker 1: and her kind of staring down, and you know, for
6:54
Speaker 1: a moment, you know, you kind of detach yourself from
6:56
Speaker 1: the forensics of it, and you begin to think, you know,
6:58
Speaker 1: what the world's going through her mind at that moment.
7:01
Speaker 1: Tom police came to the scene because of a nine
7:05
Speaker 1: one one call, and in that nine one one call,
7:09
Speaker 1: you can hear in the background Courtney Clinny saying I'm sorry, baby,
7:15
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. That would stand a reason that she is
7:19
Speaker 1: the person who did this. Then we find her covered
7:22
Speaker 1: with blood, so at that point we would have to
7:26
Speaker 1: make a big assumption that she was the perpetrator, yet
7:29
Speaker 1: she was not arrested for murder at that time. I've
7:34
Speaker 1: often had cases where, you know, you have individuals that
7:38
Speaker 1: are found at a scene that are encrusted with blood,
7:42
Speaker 1: and this is kind of a very interesting point from
7:45
Speaker 1: a forensic standpoint versus your individual humanity, because you know,
7:50
Speaker 1: when you roll up on a scene as an investigator,
7:52
Speaker 1: first off, you don't know what in the world has happened.
7:55
Speaker 1: You didn't witness it. You've been summoned to the scene
7:58
Speaker 1: as an investigator, and here you have this horrific environment,
8:02
Speaker 1: and I think at a primal level, the first thing
8:05
Speaker 1: you want to try to do is kind of push
8:06
Speaker 1: it out of your mind. You see people that are
8:08
Speaker 1: impacted by the same perhaps they are blood soaked, and
8:12
Speaker 1: you know your human side, you want to say, here,
8:15
Speaker 1: let me get you one towel, let me get you
8:17
Speaker 1: some baby wipes. Or whatever it is that you're carrying
8:19
Speaker 1: in your kit, and you know, clean yourself up, but
8:24
Speaker 1: you have to fight that urge in this environment and
8:28
Speaker 1: you say, well, Morgan, why would you want to do that? Well,
8:31
Speaker 1: her Courtney Clinty. At this moment in tom she is
8:37
Speaker 1: that point of contact where you know that she's going
8:40
Speaker 1: to have evidence that she can give you verbally okay
8:46
Speaker 1: as to what happened, because that's going to be one
8:48
Speaker 1: of the biggest questions you're you're gonna want to have
8:51
Speaker 1: an answer for. But also there's another bigger tell here,
8:55
Speaker 1: and that's the physical evidence that's contained on her body.
9:00
Speaker 1: For every blood stain that she has on her person,
9:06
Speaker 1: there is a tale to be told relative to that
9:12
Speaker 1: point of contact, whether it is say, for instance, you
9:16
Speaker 1: find your lover bleeding and you're trying to stem the
9:22
Speaker 1: flow of blood. You're trying to soothe them, so you
9:24
Speaker 1: draw them into you. And also you have to begin
9:29
Speaker 1: to think, well, they're there and they might be responsible
9:34
Speaker 1: for this, and the maybe, for instance, you've got an
9:39
Speaker 1: arterial spray pattern that's very fine, it's very distinct that
9:44
Speaker 1: has rested on the clothing. You need to keep that
9:47
Speaker 1: in pristine condition. One of the problems that happens many
9:53
Speaker 1: times in cases like this. First off, police do not
9:57
Speaker 1: keep an eye sometimes on a suspect because everybody's a
10:01
Speaker 1: suspect at this moment time, and they allow them to
10:05
Speaker 1: go into another location, into a bathroom, to wash their face,
10:09
Speaker 1: wash their hands, you know, just to change clothes maybe
10:14
Speaker 1: and not appropriately collect the clothing or you any opportunity
10:19
Speaker 1: that the individual might have to you know, take away
10:23
Speaker 1: these garments are adjust their appearance from its pristine condition.
10:27
Speaker 1: That is that that condition they are in when you
10:30
Speaker 1: initially observe them can compromise the entire narrative that the
10:35
Speaker 1: evidence is trying to portray, you know, for what had
10:39
Speaker 1: actually happened. So when you see her seated on the
10:43
Speaker 1: floor there back to that image, that is a big tail.
10:48
Speaker 1: First off, you know that the police are not allowing
10:50
Speaker 1: her to clean herself up. So what do you do
10:53
Speaker 1: with her at that point in time? Well, the best
10:56
Speaker 1: thing you can do is is photograph, photograph, photograph, photograph,
11:01
Speaker 1: And as distasteful as it is, and it is, you
11:04
Speaker 1: don't allow her to wash her hands, you don't allow
11:07
Speaker 1: her to clean her face, you don't allow her to
11:10
Speaker 1: wipe her neck off, and you certainly don't allow her
11:15
Speaker 1: to change clothing because in a case like this, that
11:20
Speaker 1: information is going to be a treasure trove moving forward
11:25
Speaker 1: as we begin to interpret what actually happened in that apartment.
11:29
Speaker 1: One call, you could also hear o hum Sally saying
11:34
Speaker 1: that he was losing feeling in his arm and that
11:38
Speaker 1: he was dying. And that's when you hear Clinny say,
11:42
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry baby. So when the police arrived, you
11:46
Speaker 1: were talking about this arterial spray Joe and we suspect
11:52
Speaker 1: that there was allegedly a fight between the two and
11:55
Speaker 1: that's what resulted in his death. So what would the
12:01
Speaker 1: police have seen? She was covered in blood, but with
12:04
Speaker 1: the apartment have also been covered in blood. When the police,
12:08
Speaker 1: you know, make this initial entry into this environment, they
12:12
Speaker 1: will see copious and I'll you know, that's that's a
12:17
Speaker 1: term that pathologists love to use, which just means a lot, okay,
12:23
Speaker 1: copious amount of blood that will probably be pulled in
12:29
Speaker 1: certain locations. Go back to what Obsellia actually said or
12:34
Speaker 1: could be heard saying, I can't I can't feel anything,
12:38
Speaker 1: you know, I'm losing the feeling in my extremities. And
12:42
Speaker 1: this is something that is encountered with blood loss. As
12:46
Speaker 1: a matter of fact, that's that's he's probably becoming what's
12:50
Speaker 1: referred to as shocky at that moment in time. He's
12:52
Speaker 1: going into shock. His pallor will change, that is his complexion.
12:57
Speaker 1: It'll look kind of washed out, does and have the
13:00
Speaker 1: vibrance that he would have had, you know, in a
13:03
Speaker 1: healthy state. He'll become delirious in this sort of thing,
13:07
Speaker 1: and he's not going to be moving around a lot.
13:10
Speaker 1: So where he finally comes to rest is going to
13:15
Speaker 1: be kind of the end game as far as he
13:17
Speaker 1: is concerned. However, in an initial attack, let's say he
13:21
Speaker 1: was seated on a sofa. When his body is first
13:25
Speaker 1: breached with an instrument, like a sharp instrument, there will
13:30
Speaker 1: if that weapon is withdrawn, you will see a tremendous
13:35
Speaker 1: amount of blood that will initially kind of come out
13:40
Speaker 1: of the body at that point in time. And his
13:43
Speaker 1: response to this, it's kind of a primal response. You know,
13:47
Speaker 1: you feel the sharpness of the pain as an instrument
13:51
Speaker 1: penetrate your body, and you reach up to kind of
13:55
Speaker 1: assess it yourself. Blood transfers to your hands. You may
14:00
Speaker 1: clutch your chest, you may try to brace yourself. You
14:03
Speaker 1: may try to reach forward and if there's an attack
14:07
Speaker 1: or you're going to grab them, so you're actually transferring
14:10
Speaker 1: your own blood to the individual that has struck a
14:14
Speaker 1: blow against you. Then you know, your instinct tells you
14:22
Speaker 1: to get away from that initial contact, from that point
14:26
Speaker 1: in which you were attacked or you perceive yourself to
14:29
Speaker 1: be attacked. And as that happens, your body is twisting,
14:34
Speaker 1: turning this sort of thing. And if the object, for instance,
14:38
Speaker 1: a knife, is not still in place and it's been
14:41
Speaker 1: removed from that location, you will have blood that is
14:45
Speaker 1: either slowly coming out of the body or spurting. Okay,
14:49
Speaker 1: And I think that in this case, you sustained an
14:53
Speaker 1: arterial breach at that moment time. Now some of that
14:56
Speaker 1: blood is going to remain within the body, but a
15:01
Speaker 1: goodly portion of that is going to begin to come
15:03
Speaker 1: through that defect. In this case, I believe that it
15:08
Speaker 1: is a sharper horse injury, So it'll be a knife
15:10
Speaker 1: a knife injury. And if folks at home will think
15:15
Speaker 1: about the way an eye, a human eye looks when
15:20
Speaker 1: it's closed. Many times, if you've never actually seen a
15:23
Speaker 1: stab wound in person, if you will close one of
15:26
Speaker 1: your eyes and stare in a mirror and look at
15:30
Speaker 1: kind of how your upper lid and your lower lid
15:33
Speaker 1: form this kind of slit like appearance. That's what multiple
15:38
Speaker 1: stab wounds are. Even singular stab wounds look like. It'll
15:40
Speaker 1: come to a very pronounced point on one end, almost
15:45
Speaker 1: like a closed eye, particularly if it is a single
15:48
Speaker 1: edged weapon, and so you can have quite a bit
15:52
Speaker 1: of blood coming forth from that injury if an artery
15:56
Speaker 1: is struck, and so every time the heart beats, essentially okay,
16:03
Speaker 1: you will have forced blood out of that defect. And
16:08
Speaker 1: that's what in the world of forensic pathology these are
16:12
Speaker 1: referred to as it'll be probably a linear defect, meaning
16:16
Speaker 1: line the blood will kind of spurt out. It will
16:20
Speaker 1: come out in a spray, because that's the way it's
16:22
Speaker 1: coursing through your body at that moment time. Remember reason
16:25
Speaker 1: not dead. Okay, Art's still pumping, he's still breathing. So
16:29
Speaker 1: it's being forced out, and as it's being forced out,
16:33
Speaker 1: it's almost like the spray of a water hose. Okay,
16:36
Speaker 1: it's not really greatly directed, it's not targeted, say like
16:40
Speaker 1: a bullet coming out of a gun. It's kind of
16:42
Speaker 1: sprayed indiscriminately, and you'll see these patterns that have almost
16:46
Speaker 1: a histamine like appearance to that to it. Many times,
16:50
Speaker 1: it's as it's spraying out like the end of a
16:52
Speaker 1: water hose, and it's contacting multiple surfaces over a broad
16:56
Speaker 1: ranging area. And you can kind of track these or
16:59
Speaker 1: trail them depended upon the movement of the body. And
17:03
Speaker 1: as of course, more blood is lost, there will be
17:06
Speaker 1: a less of volume of blood that's coming from this injury.
17:10
Speaker 1: You know, remember he said I couldn't you know, I
17:13
Speaker 1: can't fill my arms. And as a shock begins to
17:16
Speaker 1: set in those areas where he has moved about as
17:20
Speaker 1: a result of this injury will come to a terminus.
17:23
Speaker 1: It'll end right there where he finally dies or goes
17:27
Speaker 1: into a kind of a static position on the floor
17:30
Speaker 1: where he can no longer move. He would get very
17:34
Speaker 1: very sleepy, drowsy, that sort of thing. As blood, you know,
17:37
Speaker 1: has begun to leach out of his body, he's not
17:40
Speaker 1: getting sufficient oxygenation to his brain. Now what comes into
17:44
Speaker 1: play at this moment in time is what efforts did
17:49
Speaker 1: Clintie make. Did she attempt to resuscitate him? And if
17:55
Speaker 1: she did, then that would mean that envision her hands
17:59
Speaker 1: in center somebody's chest as you're doing chess compressions, and
18:03
Speaker 1: you're immediately adjacent to this insult in the chest, this
18:06
Speaker 1: open wound. And every time think about this, every compression
18:11
Speaker 1: that you make, that is, every time you press down
18:14
Speaker 1: on the chest, a little bit of blood is going
18:17
Speaker 1: to leach out. Okay, and as that happens, it's going
18:21
Speaker 1: to transfer to your hands. Okay, I got to stop
18:23
Speaker 1: you for a second. I want to understand something you
18:26
Speaker 1: just said. You said blood is going to leach out.
18:30
Speaker 1: When you use that term, and I've heard you use
18:32
Speaker 1: it often, do you mean a little trickle do you
18:35
Speaker 1: mean a spurt? Give me a mental image to think
18:39
Speaker 1: about when you say blood is gonna leach out, Well,
18:43
Speaker 1: when it leaches out. Many times, you know, people will
18:47
Speaker 1: associate leaching with kind of oozing. Okay, But when I'm
18:51
Speaker 1: saying leaching out, particularly when you're talking about chess compressions
18:54
Speaker 1: on somebody that has an insult, it's not going to
18:57
Speaker 1: spray as much as say an artisal spray, where the
19:01
Speaker 1: heart is still pumping it but you're pressing it out,
19:03
Speaker 1: it's a bit more sluggish, and it will still transfer
19:06
Speaker 1: that blood that is still caught up in those vessels
19:09
Speaker 1: in that area where where he has been injured, that
19:14
Speaker 1: blood will still come out. You're forcing it. Remember every
19:18
Speaker 1: compression that you generate, you're an external pump. If you're
19:23
Speaker 1: the one that ministering CPR, you're an external pump now
19:28
Speaker 1: and you're pumping that remainder, that residual blood out of
19:32
Speaker 1: the body, and it transfers onto your hands and essentially
19:37
Speaker 1: it leaches onto your hands and everybody can understand, you know,
19:41
Speaker 1: kind of the tackiness of blood. You can't get it
19:44
Speaker 1: off of you. Blood is not a standalone, one off substance.
19:48
Speaker 1: It's a it's a it's a substance that has multiple
19:53
Speaker 1: components to it. As a matter of fact, if it
19:55
Speaker 1: doesn't continue to circulate, if it just sits on the floor,
20:00
Speaker 1: for instance, after a period of time. What's really fascinating.
20:03
Speaker 1: One of the things that we look at in depth
20:06
Speaker 1: investigation is you will actually see and this is kind
20:09
Speaker 1: of cool, you'll actually see the red blood cells and
20:13
Speaker 1: you can visually see this. You can see the red
20:17
Speaker 1: blood cells begin to separate out from the serum. So
20:22
Speaker 1: you'll have over period of time and we really haven't
20:25
Speaker 1: fine tuned this enough to know, you know, if we're
20:28
Speaker 1: going to use this, it's like a part of assessing
20:30
Speaker 1: post mortal interval, that is the time since death. But
20:33
Speaker 1: we do know that over period of time, the red
20:36
Speaker 1: blood cells will migrate away from the serum and the
20:41
Speaker 1: serum is clear, you know, it's it's kind of clear,
20:44
Speaker 1: it's got kind of a yellow tinge to it, and
20:46
Speaker 1: you'll see it begin to kind of migrate away because
20:49
Speaker 1: it's no longer mixing, you know, and just think about that.
20:52
Speaker 1: You know, as the body is pumping the blood through
20:55
Speaker 1: the body and it's being oxygenated and it's traveling throughout
20:58
Speaker 1: the body, it's essentially mixing and stain mixed in that
21:02
Speaker 1: state like that. But after it's out of the body,
21:04
Speaker 1: it begins to kind of separate out into its individual
21:08
Speaker 1: components at that moment time. So with what you're describing
21:11
Speaker 1: right there, Joe, with the blood separating and the way
21:14
Speaker 1: that it's going to look outside the body, what would
21:17
Speaker 1: it look like on Clintie herself, Because the image looks
21:21
Speaker 1: like somebody drinsed her in red paint. It really does.
21:25
Speaker 1: It looks like somebody dipped a paint brush and a
21:27
Speaker 1: big bucket of pin paint and just kind of randomly,
21:31
Speaker 1: you know, wiped it all across our person. And again
21:34
Speaker 1: that's you got to temper that a little bit because remember,
21:38
Speaker 1: you know that image that we're looking at at that moment,
21:40
Speaker 1: Thomas is from above and it looks like it's from
21:44
Speaker 1: across the way, so it's that kind of a distance,
21:46
Speaker 1: so it's it's hard to appreciate detail. But when you're
21:49
Speaker 1: up on her in person, and are when they would
21:52
Speaker 1: have been up on her, that is the authorities in person,
21:56
Speaker 1: you could visibly see the changes in the blood. It
22:00
Speaker 1: begins to kind of darken as it's contacting the various
22:04
Speaker 1: surfaces of her clothing along her face, her hands, and
22:09
Speaker 1: the nature of it is changing because it's now outside
22:14
Speaker 1: of the body, and there is a color change. Many
22:18
Speaker 1: times that that image that they took I think was
22:20
Speaker 1: probably early on, and if if she were to have
22:25
Speaker 1: been allowed to stay, you know, there, and you could
22:28
Speaker 1: kind of photograph her over a progression of time, you
22:31
Speaker 1: would see that the color would have changed. Blood is
22:36
Speaker 1: always changing, you know, in these scenes and on individual persons,
22:41
Speaker 1: and it's it's very fragile too. As it begins to dry,
22:45
Speaker 1: it will begin to flake crack. First you actually see
22:48
Speaker 1: it cracking the stained area, and then it will begin
22:52
Speaker 1: to flake as it's interacting with the world outside of
22:55
Speaker 1: the body. So it's a very dynamic substance. You have
22:58
Speaker 1: to be swift in your assessment. You have to be
23:01
Speaker 1: swift in your documentation. That is particularly you want to
23:05
Speaker 1: try to get this person photographed as quickly as you
23:08
Speaker 1: can from as many different perspectives as you can, demonstrating
23:13
Speaker 1: all surfaces of their person, and try to retrieve that
23:16
Speaker 1: clothing and keep it as intact as you can because
23:19
Speaker 1: you don't know what's going to be on there. I mean,
23:21
Speaker 1: there's any number of things that can be on that clothing,
23:24
Speaker 1: chief among them other than the blood. You know, you
23:26
Speaker 1: can have hair that you would expect to find her
23:29
Speaker 1: hair contained on her clothing. But this poor man, you know,
23:35
Speaker 1: you would also potentially find his hair. Now they're in
23:37
Speaker 1: an intimate relationship, so you would expect maybe to find
23:40
Speaker 1: trace elements of his hair that have sloughed off of
23:43
Speaker 1: his body, maybe even his skin. But when you find
23:47
Speaker 1: say the blood that's there that has kind of encrusted
23:50
Speaker 1: on that clothing, and you have hair, his hair caught
23:55
Speaker 1: up in multiple locations. You know that there was in
23:58
Speaker 1: those little dried of blood. You know that there's something
24:01
Speaker 1: very dynamic that has gone on. I will continue to
24:25
Speaker 1: beat this drum about time. Time for an investigator is
24:31
Speaker 1: the most precious asset that we possess, and if you
24:36
Speaker 1: can have a documented timeline that marries up with what
24:41
Speaker 1: you believe may have happened, it's like finding gold from
24:47
Speaker 1: an investigative standpoint, And in this case, Jackie, I think
24:50
Speaker 1: that the police have done a fine job and kind
24:53
Speaker 1: of pinning down a rough timeline of these events. The
24:57
Speaker 1: timeline that police have laid out in this investigation is
25:02
Speaker 1: that Christian Obemselly came back into the apartment around four
25:07
Speaker 1: thirty three PM. At four forty three, Courtney Clinny calls
25:11
Speaker 1: her mother and she's on the phone with her mother
25:15
Speaker 1: just over six minutes. At four forty nine, Clinny makes
25:20
Speaker 1: a second call to her mother and they spoke until
25:23
Speaker 1: four fifty six pm. That's a little over seven minutes,
25:28
Speaker 1: so that makes it four fifty six pm. At four
25:33
Speaker 1: fifty seven pm, Clinny calls nine one one. So given
25:38
Speaker 1: that timeline, Joe, what does that tell you about when
25:44
Speaker 1: this assault actually occurred. According to the tomline that the
25:49
Speaker 1: police have released in this case, we have to think
25:54
Speaker 1: about what was Obamselly doing. Well, he had left the
25:58
Speaker 1: apartment and at and had been gone for quite some time.
26:04
Speaker 1: There was some contact between these two, that is Clinian
26:09
Speaker 1: open Sally via a phone and it was during that
26:14
Speaker 1: conversation that apparently he agreed to go and pick up
26:17
Speaker 1: food from Subway Subway restaurant. He's going to go grab
26:21
Speaker 1: sandwiches and it's at the moment that he hits the
26:26
Speaker 1: door when he returns back into the apartment roughly according
26:32
Speaker 1: to the police, at four thirty two pm, there was
26:34
Speaker 1: a fight that ensued and this happened, you know, rather quickly.
26:39
Speaker 1: And it's it's curious here that it we don't really
26:46
Speaker 1: know according to the police, what sparked us off at
26:50
Speaker 1: that moment time. But something occurred relative to his Maybe
26:57
Speaker 1: it happened when he was going to get the sandwiches.
27:00
Speaker 1: Maybe they had had in that initial phone call before
27:04
Speaker 1: he you know, robbed, Maybe they have spat um he
27:08
Speaker 1: returns back to the apartment. According to the police, they
27:12
Speaker 1: have put forth this narrative that while open Sally was
27:17
Speaker 1: out of the apartment, she was taping. Now. I don't
27:20
Speaker 1: know if this was for her fan accounts or if
27:23
Speaker 1: there was some kind of issue, you know, related to that,
27:25
Speaker 1: but something sparked us off and it was at that
27:30
Speaker 1: moment in time. There's kind of this this brief moment
27:34
Speaker 1: in time that you know, roughly according to the timeline
27:38
Speaker 1: that the police had laid out, it would have happened
27:42
Speaker 1: in an instant. I think that this attack, if as
27:48
Speaker 1: the police have laid it out, would have would have occurred,
27:52
Speaker 1: perhaps with him being completely unaware of what was about
27:56
Speaker 1: to have happened. And I think that that's that's what
28:00
Speaker 1: they have spent so much time. You know, Jackie had
28:02
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier they didn't arrest her initially. I think that
28:07
Speaker 1: they've spent a lot of time trying to sort this out,
28:10
Speaker 1: that that actual brief window of time has kind of
28:14
Speaker 1: stumped them to try to get the fact straight in
28:17
Speaker 1: this particular story, to try to understand what could have
28:21
Speaker 1: kicked this thing off, what would have initiated such a
28:24
Speaker 1: violent act having taken place. Police saying that Clenny told
28:29
Speaker 1: them that she was defending herself. So let's look at
28:34
Speaker 1: the actual injuries that obum Selly sustained he was stabbed
28:39
Speaker 1: with a six inch knife. So describe for me Joe
28:44
Speaker 1: where he was stabbed, what body parts would have been affected,
28:50
Speaker 1: Why he was not feeling his arm any longer. Explain
28:54
Speaker 1: that for me, Joe. When his wound was assessed, it's
29:03
Speaker 1: quite fascinating, I found because it's a single it's a
29:06
Speaker 1: single injury. And just think about that just for a
29:10
Speaker 1: second or end. He's a big guy. If you've never
29:15
Speaker 1: seen an image of these two together, I beg you
29:18
Speaker 1: check it out online. He's a big, powerful guy. And
29:22
Speaker 1: I'm not saying she's completely diminutive or anything, but there
29:26
Speaker 1: is a size a differential here, a significant He's well muscled,
29:30
Speaker 1: big guy. These two people are in pretty good physical condition.
29:34
Speaker 1: And it's with a single blow that he was essentially
29:38
Speaker 1: struck down. The injury that the Miami Dade Medical Examiner's
29:46
Speaker 1: Office was able to assess on him, you know, stated
29:50
Speaker 1: that the track of this wound. You had mentioned that
29:55
Speaker 1: this is a six inch blade, and the blade itself,
29:59
Speaker 1: he's got a rated edge on it, which gives you
30:01
Speaker 1: an indication this is probably something you used, you know,
30:04
Speaker 1: in a household, we generally see serrated edges, you know,
30:08
Speaker 1: for state knives. Okay, this thing penetrated according to Miami
30:13
Speaker 1: Dade's office, three inches. Now you've got a six inch blade.
30:17
Speaker 1: I don't I don't know that listeners understand how much
30:22
Speaker 1: strength it takes to force the entirety of a blade
30:26
Speaker 1: into somebody's body. You're talking about pressing, pressing six inches
30:31
Speaker 1: of steel into a human's body where you're passing through
30:36
Speaker 1: connective tissue, muscle, perhaps you're nicking bone at that point
30:41
Speaker 1: in time, and then any kind of organ systems that
30:44
Speaker 1: might be in dwelling beneath there, and that that doesn't
30:47
Speaker 1: even begin to count the vessels, which in this case
30:50
Speaker 1: is what we're compromised. If if our listeners, and we've
30:54
Speaker 1: talked about this on body backs before with other cases,
30:56
Speaker 1: and it's amazing how it continues to come up, and
30:58
Speaker 1: it came up in my career. You know this particular vessel,
31:02
Speaker 1: it's it runs beneath the collar bone. So if everybody
31:05
Speaker 1: at home and the initial reports have come out and
31:09
Speaker 1: said it was left side, but it turns out it's
31:11
Speaker 1: right side. It's the collar bone, which is referred to
31:15
Speaker 1: as the clavical and you can feel this at the
31:18
Speaker 1: base of your neck. It's kind of this long tubular
31:22
Speaker 1: bone that is one of the structures that holds you,
31:24
Speaker 1: holds our head in place, and it holds our shoulders up,
31:30
Speaker 1: this sort of thing, and it's antier, which means it's
31:32
Speaker 1: on the front of the body. There is a complex
31:36
Speaker 1: of vessels that run beneath the clavical and one in
31:44
Speaker 1: particular that's called the subclave, which sub meaning below the
31:48
Speaker 1: subclave artery, our subclavicular artery. And in this case, open sally,
31:55
Speaker 1: this knife was driven through the subclavicular artery and it wasn't.
32:01
Speaker 1: And this is significant. The track of this thing, and
32:03
Speaker 1: we track knife wounds in forensics, just like we do
32:07
Speaker 1: bullet wounds. They have a path or a track, and
32:11
Speaker 1: the path of this blade passing beneath his clavicle and
32:18
Speaker 1: through the subclave is downward, downward. And that's very important
32:23
Speaker 1: to understand why well it is because remember what I
32:27
Speaker 1: said just a second ago. This is a big guy.
32:30
Speaker 1: He's big man. He's not some tiny little guy. He's
32:34
Speaker 1: a big man. And here we have his partner here
32:39
Speaker 1: that is significantly shorter than he. So that leads us
32:44
Speaker 1: to believe that perhaps, just perhaps he was in an
32:50
Speaker 1: asymmetrical position relative to her where if what the police
32:56
Speaker 1: are opining and they're putting forward, she would have had
32:59
Speaker 1: to have been in a dominant position above him. And
33:02
Speaker 1: this is called a symmetry, which you know, things are
33:05
Speaker 1: kind of out of whack. You got one thing that's
33:07
Speaker 1: above the other and the other thing below is the
33:11
Speaker 1: target area that's being attacked. So the knife would have
33:14
Speaker 1: had to have been raised from above and dropped down, Okay,
33:18
Speaker 1: dropped down in a single blow. So what would have
33:22
Speaker 1: happened is is that the knife itself would have passed
33:25
Speaker 1: beneath the collar bone and tracked through this vessel complex.
33:32
Speaker 1: Because I'm sure it wasn't just the subclavicular artery that
33:35
Speaker 1: got nicked. There were other little associated arteries that probably
33:39
Speaker 1: got clipped as well. Our body is is you know,
33:43
Speaker 1: there's there's webs of you know, capillary beds and on
33:46
Speaker 1: these things you know they're passing through that are supplying
33:49
Speaker 1: you know, oxygenated blood and taking away blood that's that
33:52
Speaker 1: needs to be replenished with oxygen. And you've got all
33:56
Speaker 1: of these little fields of vessels that are being compromised
33:58
Speaker 1: as well. But the subclave is certainly the most prominent
34:04
Speaker 1: among these and it's got a tremendous amount of internal
34:07
Speaker 1: pressure that's being placed upon it every time the heart
34:12
Speaker 1: pushes out blood. Keep that in mind. So you've clipped,
34:15
Speaker 1: You've clipped this vessel that is supplying blood to that
34:21
Speaker 1: particular side of the body. Remember what did he say?
34:25
Speaker 1: He said that, you know, you could hear him in
34:27
Speaker 1: the background. I'm I'm getting numb. I'm getting numb. You
34:31
Speaker 1: know I can't I can't feel my extremities. Well, no,
34:33
Speaker 1: you can't feel your extremities at that point because you're
34:37
Speaker 1: no longer receiving blood flow. He would have also felt
34:41
Speaker 1: very cold as well, at least his perception, his internal
34:46
Speaker 1: thermometer would have been telling him. You know, I'm chilly,
34:48
Speaker 1: I'm shivering. You know, that's one of the reasons need
34:50
Speaker 1: you wrap people in blankets that are going into shock
34:53
Speaker 1: and that sort of thing. So here's the important question
34:57
Speaker 1: in this attack. Joe Courtney Clinny reportedly told police that
35:04
Speaker 1: she first threw the knife and it hit o hum Selly,
35:11
Speaker 1: that they were having the argument. She was acting in
35:14
Speaker 1: self defense because he grabbed her, he choked her and
35:19
Speaker 1: throw her to the ground. She ran to the kitchen.
35:23
Speaker 1: She grabbed the knife and threw it and hit O. Um,
35:26
Speaker 1: selling is that possible with what we know now from
35:30
Speaker 1: the Emmy? I gotta say this on the side. When
35:34
Speaker 1: I first heard this, it took me back till a
35:36
Speaker 1: moment when I was a kid and I used to
35:39
Speaker 1: love Western movies. One of my favorite Western movies of
35:41
Speaker 1: all times a classic Magnificent Seven, and James Coburn was
35:45
Speaker 1: in that movie. And each one of these guys have
35:47
Speaker 1: a specialty, and his specialty was throwing knives, and it
35:51
Speaker 1: was amazing. You know when you're a kid and you
35:53
Speaker 1: see him throw knives and you know he's taking down
35:55
Speaker 1: all these bad guys in the movie. And that's somebody
35:58
Speaker 1: that is portrayed with a tremendous amount level of skill
36:02
Speaker 1: at doing this, and in my estimation at least, it
36:08
Speaker 1: would be a one in a million shot. In order
36:14
Speaker 1: to do this, first off, you'd have to know how
36:16
Speaker 1: to throw the knife. And there is a very particular
36:19
Speaker 1: way of throwing a knife and throwing knives or generally
36:21
Speaker 1: throwing knives. There that's actually a thing throwing knives. These
36:27
Speaker 1: knives are balanced in a very particular way, and then
36:32
Speaker 1: you can have a balanced throwing knife. But if the
36:36
Speaker 1: thrower is not skilled and can target these things, you know,
36:41
Speaker 1: you might as well be throwing pebbles at somebody. It
36:44
Speaker 1: would be a one in a million shot. So no,
36:47
Speaker 1: I don't see how that is possible. And the fact
36:50
Speaker 1: that you would have to get this knife. Remember what
36:53
Speaker 1: the emmy said. The em he said that you got
36:56
Speaker 1: three inches of penetration. That's a tremendous amount of power
37:00
Speaker 1: going through this very powerful man's chest. He appears to
37:03
Speaker 1: be very well muscled, particularly in his pack area, you know,
37:08
Speaker 1: in the muscles of his chest, and so you have
37:11
Speaker 1: to pass through that three inches. I mean, you're talking
37:14
Speaker 1: about getting down into the chest cavity at this moment
37:16
Speaker 1: in the time, So that I think that that's that's
37:21
Speaker 1: rather fantastical when you begin to think about possibility that
37:25
Speaker 1: that could have even have occurred, and you know, the
37:30
Speaker 1: police would have assessed this. They certainly would have gone
37:32
Speaker 1: to the medical examiner and said, you know, hey, doc,
37:35
Speaker 1: is this physically possible? Can this actually occurs? Can you
37:40
Speaker 1: take the knife that we have from the scene, and
37:44
Speaker 1: can it be thrown and generate this kind of injury?
37:49
Speaker 1: And you know, the medical examiner apparently has opine that
37:54
Speaker 1: that's that that's just not the case. Let me give
37:57
Speaker 1: you a quick word picture here and an exam ample
38:00
Speaker 1: of something. And it's not the same as throwing a knife.
38:03
Speaker 1: But you know all these bars that are out here
38:05
Speaker 1: where people are, you know, are throwing tomahawks at these
38:09
Speaker 1: wooden targets, hatchets, you know that they're throwing you know,
38:12
Speaker 1: people drink and they throw these things. Watch how those
38:15
Speaker 1: people throw those instruments. And just how much power it
38:19
Speaker 1: takes to get one of those to stick. And when
38:22
Speaker 1: it sticks, it has to catch on a particular edge,
38:25
Speaker 1: a leading edge of this thing, and then it doesn't
38:28
Speaker 1: go in really really deep most of the time. But
38:32
Speaker 1: you don't have to, you know, put your foot on
38:35
Speaker 1: it to try to pry it out or anything like that.
38:37
Speaker 1: And how much more so with one of these knives.
38:41
Speaker 1: And that's what she is putting forth. Another really significant
38:46
Speaker 1: thing here. You know, we talked about the assessment of
38:49
Speaker 1: her and the blood evidence that was on her person.
38:54
Speaker 1: Well she's indicating, according to the police, that he open
38:59
Speaker 1: sally allegedly attacked her. Well what does that mean. Well,
39:03
Speaker 1: first off, it means that he attacked her that you know,
39:07
Speaker 1: I don't think it was a verbal attack, because she
39:10
Speaker 1: actually says that he attempted to choke her. Again, I
39:14
Speaker 1: go back, this guy's very powerful. Did she tell the
39:18
Speaker 1: police officers that initially when they arrived at the scene,
39:21
Speaker 1: because if she did, there's got to be pictures of
39:25
Speaker 1: her neck. If he threatened her to the point where
39:29
Speaker 1: he put his hands on her neck and begin to
39:33
Speaker 1: squeeze in that early, in those early moments that investigation,
39:38
Speaker 1: there would have probably been evidence of that. You would
39:42
Speaker 1: have seen a red irritated area around her throat, around
39:48
Speaker 1: her neck, and then that would have turned into classically
39:52
Speaker 1: what we would call a bruise or a contusion in
39:55
Speaker 1: that area where he's squeezing his powerful hands around her neck.
39:59
Speaker 1: I'd want to know if the police did that assessment
40:02
Speaker 1: and they were able to conclude that, yeah, there was
40:05
Speaker 1: an attack here, that we saw evidence of that, or
40:08
Speaker 1: that we didn't see evidence of that, because it's something
40:10
Speaker 1: that would stand out like a sore thumb. If events
40:13
Speaker 1: happened as Clinny first alleged to police that she was
40:18
Speaker 1: protecting herself and that she threw the knife and hit
40:21
Speaker 1: him and hit of him. Selly, would the blood patterns
40:26
Speaker 1: have been different? You know, I'd have to say that
40:29
Speaker 1: that there would be if you're talking about throwing the knife.
40:36
Speaker 1: First off, I think that the injury itself would appear
40:41
Speaker 1: completely different. And this is why you have to assume that.
40:47
Speaker 1: Let's think about shooting an arrow. If you're shooting an
40:51
Speaker 1: arrow at a target, and that arrow is going down range,
40:55
Speaker 1: it's staying kind of on a flat plane. There'll be
40:58
Speaker 1: slight deviation, it'll arc and that sort of thing, but
41:01
Speaker 1: it's kind of on a plane, like an eyeline plane,
41:05
Speaker 1: you know, traveling in that direction, the injury would present
41:09
Speaker 1: completely different. First off, the track itself would not be
41:14
Speaker 1: from above to below, which is what we have according
41:21
Speaker 1: to the medical examiner in this case, it would be
41:23
Speaker 1: from what you would call front to back or anterior
41:28
Speaker 1: tracking posterior, going from you know, beneath the clavical so
41:36
Speaker 1: that it's headed toward the shoulder blade, if you will.
41:39
Speaker 1: That's not what's occurring here. As far as blood patterns,
41:44
Speaker 1: Assuming that she could throw the knife and it would
41:48
Speaker 1: have stuck into or compromise the structural integrity of that
41:53
Speaker 1: vessel in there, the subclave, I don't know that the
41:57
Speaker 1: blood patterns themselves would have been any different. But the
42:01
Speaker 1: wound track itself would have been markedly different. You would
42:05
Speaker 1: have seen come to something completely different than what the medicals,
42:09
Speaker 1: and they're sold that autopsy. You know, police officers never
42:32
Speaker 1: know what they're walking into, you know, and they always
42:34
Speaker 1: say that, you know, domestic cases, and I agree, I agree,
42:39
Speaker 1: are always the most dangerous situations you can walk into
42:44
Speaker 1: and look, the cops are not there twenty four seven
42:47
Speaker 1: to see what happens in a family dynamic, a relationship dynamic.
42:54
Speaker 1: They're there after the fact most of the time, or
42:57
Speaker 1: they're there when the thing has just come to a
43:00
Speaker 1: complete and total head and people are screaming and yelling
43:03
Speaker 1: and you've got you know, things being broken, and people
43:06
Speaker 1: are injured and maybe even dead. But in this case,
43:11
Speaker 1: you know, you've got to go to the neighbors because
43:14
Speaker 1: it's an intimate environment. We're not talking about this is
43:16
Speaker 1: a standalone structure, you know, where you know you've got
43:20
Speaker 1: a white picket fence around the house. No, you're living
43:23
Speaker 1: in an apartment. You're living in an apartment. That means
43:26
Speaker 1: you have people above you, below you, to the left,
43:29
Speaker 1: to the right, They see you in the hallway and
43:33
Speaker 1: sometimes your best source information are the people that inhabit
43:37
Speaker 1: the space around you. Well, in Courtney Clinny's case, the
43:42
Speaker 1: people that came forward, we're friends and neighbors who reported
43:46
Speaker 1: seeing and hearing a lot of violence coming not just
43:51
Speaker 1: from the apartment but throughout the couples to your career.
43:56
Speaker 1: And then we have the video of Courtney Clinney of
44:00
Speaker 1: assaulting of um Selly in an elevator. Now keep in
44:05
Speaker 1: mind again, everyone is innocent until proving guilty. This case
44:08
Speaker 1: has not been adjudicated yet. We're discussing the evidence that
44:13
Speaker 1: may come forward in a twial. So how is this
44:19
Speaker 1: video Joe and witness statements of assault and fights and
44:26
Speaker 1: physical attacks going to play into this case. It's a
44:32
Speaker 1: treasure trove, I think. And when this does go to trial,
44:38
Speaker 1: you're going to see a succession of not just eyewitnesses,
44:44
Speaker 1: but in this particular case, you're gonna have ear witnesses.
44:47
Speaker 1: And I think anybody that among our listeners that have
44:53
Speaker 1: ever lived in an apartment, that's the biggest drawback, isn't it.
44:57
Speaker 1: You know you hear people, you know you you got heavy,
45:01
Speaker 1: heavy footed people you know that live above you, people
45:04
Speaker 1: that play loud music, people that bang around in the
45:07
Speaker 1: middle of the night when you're trying to you know,
45:09
Speaker 1: catch some sleep. But the things that always stand out
45:12
Speaker 1: are those those sounds that pass through the wall. And
45:15
Speaker 1: you know, we're sharp enough as human beings to pick
45:19
Speaker 1: up I think even in stressors and people's voices, you know,
45:23
Speaker 1: the rise and the fall of the pitch of a voice,
45:26
Speaker 1: and not just that, but what's being verbalized, you know,
45:28
Speaker 1: the threats and all of that stuff will will come
45:31
Speaker 1: to light, I think, you know, during the course of this.
45:35
Speaker 1: And then you know this, you top all of this
45:38
Speaker 1: off with this imagery which I gotta tell you, you
45:41
Speaker 1: know it was It gave me pause. You know, this
45:44
Speaker 1: elevator image that has been floating around out there, and
45:48
Speaker 1: you know, when you see this thing, the capture, the
45:52
Speaker 1: video capture that they have, you know, Cleany, you know,
45:57
Speaker 1: first comes into frame and it looks like she's, you know,
46:01
Speaker 1: dressed in maybe a bra or sports bra, I can't
46:04
Speaker 1: really tell on a pair of you know, like sleeping
46:06
Speaker 1: pants or something like this, and she's it's the elevator
46:13
Speaker 1: itself looks like something out of Star Trek. You know,
46:16
Speaker 1: it's a nice it's like high tech kind of thing,
46:19
Speaker 1: and there's this big touch pad wall that's brightly lit,
46:23
Speaker 1: and she's frustrated. You can see her just like pounding
46:27
Speaker 1: on the board itself, trying to get it to respond.
46:31
Speaker 1: And almost immediately, you know, Obam Selly comes around the
46:35
Speaker 1: corner and walks in and he attempts to assist with
46:39
Speaker 1: the board, and it's at that moment time you see
46:41
Speaker 1: her strike out at him again. You know, you know
46:45
Speaker 1: how I was talking about earlier, how you can see
46:47
Speaker 1: kind of a physical difference, you know, between between Obam
46:51
Speaker 1: Selly and Cleaney. You know he's a big guy, but
46:54
Speaker 1: you know in that image how he kind of comes
46:57
Speaker 1: off as like this genteral Johnt. I don't know how
46:59
Speaker 1: I would react. She's striking him, I mean, she's she's hitting.
47:03
Speaker 1: She grabs his hair, pulls his head back a little bit.
47:05
Speaker 1: You can see he kind of wins this, and guess
47:07
Speaker 1: what he does. He puts his arm around her and
47:14
Speaker 1: kind of secures her adjacent to his body so that
47:18
Speaker 1: she can't strike him. But I never see him in
47:22
Speaker 1: that video image raise his hand to her. I never
47:26
Speaker 1: see him put his hands around her throat. I never
47:30
Speaker 1: see him bang her off the wall. And so I
47:34
Speaker 1: think that as that is being played before the court.
47:37
Speaker 1: I think that it's it's gonna really tell a tale,
47:41
Speaker 1: and I think that the jury will certainly have enough
47:44
Speaker 1: information to chew on in that event. How do you
47:48
Speaker 1: distinguish between this he said, she said scenario? You have
47:57
Speaker 1: Courtney Clenny who has said more than once that he
48:00
Speaker 1: was abusive and that he assaulted her, and then you
48:04
Speaker 1: have video evidence and his friends and hers as well,
48:08
Speaker 1: saying well we saw her hitting him. He didn't hit back,
48:13
Speaker 1: but we saw her hitting him. How do you weigh
48:18
Speaker 1: that in the testimony? Well, you know, and I think
48:21
Speaker 1: that probably counsel and I've seen this happen in court
48:26
Speaker 1: cases I've covered. They famously say, particularly the prosecution, they'll say,
48:31
Speaker 1: you know, you can say anything about the dead. You know,
48:33
Speaker 1: they can't defend themselves at that moment time. And I
48:38
Speaker 1: think from an avid inter standpoint, when you hear about
48:44
Speaker 1: putting forth the narrative that she had been attacked, one
48:48
Speaker 1: of the questions that would be brought up is where's
48:53
Speaker 1: the evidence of attack? And I'm talking about how is
48:56
Speaker 1: that physically demonstrated over this to year period. You know, Okay,
49:00
Speaker 1: you say you've been attacked, You say that you've been assaulted,
49:03
Speaker 1: that you're in fear of your life and all those
49:05
Speaker 1: things that they say, how has that demonstrated? Has it
49:09
Speaker 1: manifested itself physically over that same period of time? And
49:14
Speaker 1: if that is what you move forward with, if that's
49:18
Speaker 1: the narrative that you put forward, you know, from the
49:20
Speaker 1: perspective of the defense, defense is going to have to
49:23
Speaker 1: you know, put that out there. They're going to have
49:25
Speaker 1: to demonstrate that. You know, on this day she went
49:28
Speaker 1: to the clinic. And look, I mean, this is something
49:31
Speaker 1: that we do in forensics all the time, you know,
49:34
Speaker 1: particularly when we think about abuse cases, and my mind
49:37
Speaker 1: always drifts drifts back because they're the most defenseless among us,
49:42
Speaker 1: our young children, you know, and that's when we have
49:46
Speaker 1: child fatalities for instance. You know, we will go back
49:49
Speaker 1: historically and look at the course of treatment that this
49:53
Speaker 1: child may have had. You know, they went to multiple
49:56
Speaker 1: medical facilities they were treated for this and that you know,
50:00
Speaker 1: lectures or you know, contusions, concussions, split heads, you know
50:05
Speaker 1: where you've got these big lacerations where they head to
50:07
Speaker 1: be sewn up, and you know that's that kind of
50:10
Speaker 1: gives you these investigated breadcrumbs along the way, so you
50:13
Speaker 1: know again we're not there, you know, as investigators when
50:16
Speaker 1: these things happen, we have to go back after the
50:17
Speaker 1: fact and piece it together. And if if you don't
50:21
Speaker 1: have that, and I think that that's that's what makes
50:25
Speaker 1: us a difficult sell. Again, Courtney Clenny is accused of
50:29
Speaker 1: stabbing her boyfriend Christian obum Selly and she is charged
50:34
Speaker 1: with murder in the second degree with the deadly weapon. Again,
50:40
Speaker 1: she has not been convicted. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty.
50:45
Speaker 1: So now this is up to a jury. Joseph Scott
50:53
Speaker 1: Morgan and this is bodybacks