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John David Mann on the Essentials of Storytelling · The Daily Writer

0:06
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Daily Rider Podcast, where we bring you tips and inspiration each day to help you build habits for writing success.
0:14
SPEAKER_00: For more resources, including your free Daily Rider starter kit, visit DailyRiderLife.com.
0:22
SPEAKER_00: Over the course of my life, I've had the incredible privilege of sitting at the feet of some truly world-class teachers.
0:29
SPEAKER_00: When you spend time with somebody who's truly a master of their subject and they know how to teach and communicate it, you walk away a little bit taller because you've been in the presence of greatness.
0:39
SPEAKER_00: And honestly, that's how I feel every time I get to talk with John David Mann, who is a master author and storyteller.
0:45
SPEAKER_00: John is the award-winning co-author of over 30 books, including nine New York Times and national bestsellers.
0:52
SPEAKER_00: His classic book, The Go Giver, written with Bob Berg, won the Living Now Book Awards Evergreen Medal for its contribution to positive global change.
1:03
SPEAKER_00: John's first novel, Steel Fear, written with Brandon Webb, was named one of the best books of 2021 by Publishers Weekly.
1:11
SPEAKER_00: His new novel, Blind Fear, comes out next month, and his latest leadership parable, The Vagrant, written with Dan Rockwell, comes out in September.
1:20
SPEAKER_00: John also leads a training and coaching program called Writing Mastery Mentorship.
1:25
SPEAKER_00: You can find out more about John by visiting johndavidman.com as well as his series with Brandon Webb by visiting webandman.com, and that's W-E-B-B-N-M-A-N-N.com.
1:39
SPEAKER_00: In today's conversation recorded just a few weeks ago, John talks about a variety of topics related to storytelling, including his process for co-writing with different authors, how he handles transitions and chapter breaks in fiction, how he approaches thrillers and parables differently, and much more.
1:56
SPEAKER_00: Now, one more thing before we get to the conversation.
1:59
SPEAKER_00: I am thrilled to be part of an author event for John at the Daniel Boone branch of the St.
2:04
SPEAKER_00: Louis County Library on Wednesday, August 9th at 8 p.m.
2:08
SPEAKER_00: in partnership with Left Bank Books, which is a St.
2:11
SPEAKER_00: Louis area bookstore.
2:13
SPEAKER_00: This is part of John's national book tour for blind fear.
2:16
SPEAKER_00: So if you're in the St.
2:17
SPEAKER_00: Louis area, I invite you to come and meet us in person and help support John's new book.
2:22
SPEAKER_00: All right, here's my conversation with the incredible John David Mann.
2:27
SPEAKER_00: John, it's great to have you back on the Daily Writer Podcast.
2:30
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for doing this conversation today.
2:31
SPEAKER_00: I've got a whole list of things to chat with you about.
2:34
SPEAKER_00: But first of all, welcome.
2:35
SPEAKER_00: So glad to have you here.
2:37
SPEAKER_00: Are you kidding?
2:38
SPEAKER_00: It's a blast.
2:38
SPEAKER_00: I always have a uh a great time here.
2:40
SPEAKER_00: So thank you for having me back.
2:42
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, totally my pleasure.
2:43
SPEAKER_00: Well, you are probably the busiest working writer that I know because you have so many books coming out in so many genres.
2:52
SPEAKER_00: So it's really, really fun to chat with you because it's not like you do just sort of one thing over and over and over again.
2:59
SPEAKER_00: You do a whole bunch of different things.
3:00
SPEAKER_00: And I just find that that really, really compelling.
3:03
SPEAKER_00: And I imagine that has to be that's part of what breathes life into you creatively, is having different kinds of things that you're working on all the time.
3:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it is.
3:12
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it really is.
3:12
SPEAKER_01: And it's also it's endlessly fascinating to me how much uh commonality I find in, you know, going from a uh parable, which is basically a very nice story about nice people uh learning nice things, to, you know, thriller about a serial killer.
3:31
SPEAKER_01: Um it's really kind of surprising how much commonality there is in the experience of writing this kind of book and this kind of book and this kind of book, you know, nonfiction and parables and memoirs and thrillers.
3:41
SPEAKER_01: It's like, yeah, it's all like different, different parts of the same elephant.
3:46
SPEAKER_00: So is is yours, speaking of all that, it is your experience writing, let's say, let's take two books that are coming out very soon.
3:54
SPEAKER_00: Um, Blind Fear, which you co-authored with Brandon Webb.
3:57
SPEAKER_00: And this is, if I'm not mistaken, the third book in the series, correct?
4:01
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
4:02
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
4:03
SPEAKER_00: So that's the third book in the series.
4:04
SPEAKER_00: That is a completely different genre book than, say, the new parable you have coming out, The Vagrant with Dan Rockwell.
4:11
SPEAKER_00: Right.
4:11
SPEAKER_00: Do you have to access kind of different parts of your psyche or personality because those books are very different, or are they really kind of the same thing, just expressed maybe a little differently?
4:22
SPEAKER_01: It feels to me like, and I've never done this, I've never acted in a movie or on stage.
4:27
SPEAKER_01: I've acted on stage a little bit, but never, you know, I'm I'm not an actor, but it it feels to me like a little bit like playing different roles in the same big drama.
4:39
SPEAKER_01: I mean that maybe oversimplifying it, but um, yeah, it's it's like doing it's like writing different characters, only it's a little bit bigger than that because it's different genres, but it's still, you know, the writing process is like whatever you're writing about, at some point you dig deep and and you find things in your own experience that kind of bounce off your topic, and it's you're writing about yourself, you know, in some way, shape, or form.
5:04
SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, it it feels like a continuum, even though they're really different.
5:09
SPEAKER_01: The the language is so different, and that took me a while, like to learn the pace of a thriller.
5:15
SPEAKER_01: Uh, it's really exacting because you can't let the ball drop for a moment.
5:21
SPEAKER_01: It's like if you're writing a memoir or a nonfiction book about some topic, you know, you can reflect and you can expand and you can pause and you can change the lens a little bit, and you can I describe it as like taking a tour, a group on a tour through a museum.
5:37
SPEAKER_01: We're gonna look in this room, and now we're gonna look on this room.
5:40
SPEAKER_01: A thriller is like taking that same group and making a dash across a rope bridge over a chasm that's like 50 50,000 foot drop underneath you.
5:51
SPEAKER_01: You know, you just have to go for 400 pages, and you can't let up for a moment.
5:56
SPEAKER_01: So it's it's a really different language, but the process of writing is always the same process of writing.
6:04
SPEAKER_00: Has your process for writing the thrillers changed at all since you and Brandon did the first book?
6:10
SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, I mean, it's certainly in one way.
6:12
SPEAKER_01: The first book, Steel Fear, was uh extraordinarily difficult for me because it because it was so different, because I had to learn that language.
6:22
SPEAKER_01: And so it took a lot longer.
6:25
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I ended up throwing out a lot more draft material.
6:30
SPEAKER_01: In the second book, it it was yeah, first book took me really two years.
6:34
SPEAKER_01: Second book took about a year, and I threw out a lot less.
6:37
SPEAKER_01: I still threw out a bunch.
6:39
SPEAKER_01: The third book, I think I probably did in nine months.
6:42
SPEAKER_01: Um it's funny because you know, you started out saying I'm one of the busiest writers you know.
6:48
SPEAKER_01: The process feels slow to me when I'm in the middle of it.
6:52
SPEAKER_01: I feel like a slow writer to me, even though if you look at it from the outside, it's like I got all these books coming out, so there must be something going on.
6:59
SPEAKER_01: But it it always feels kind of slow and contemplative, and I have to sit and think a lot uh without getting anything on the page just to kind of figure out where I am.
7:11
SPEAKER_01: Um but yeah, it has gotten, I don't know if it's gotten easier, but it's gotten a little quicker to write these monster thrillers.
7:19
SPEAKER_00: When you're doing these thrillers, are you I'm curious about your your structure process for these?
7:24
SPEAKER_00: And I think the last time you were on the show, I probably asked about this as well, because I'm so curious about how novels, particularly long thrillers, are actually constructed.
7:34
SPEAKER_00: So you have obviously an overall idea of where you want to go with the story.
7:37
SPEAKER_00: Then how granular when you're planning out the book, do you get in terms of here's the the plot points, here's the scenes, maybe here's the settings, here's the twists.
7:46
SPEAKER_00: And then do you kind of do a draft or do you do you kind of just start?
7:52
SPEAKER_00: Obviously, you don't just start writing without any idea where you're going.
7:55
SPEAKER_00: I'm just curious how granular you get with the the story structure and the plot before you actually start to sit down and just do a draft.
8:03
SPEAKER_01: I mean, although there are writers who do just that, who at least would say they just sit down and go.
8:08
SPEAKER_01: They come up with the premise and they just go.
8:10
SPEAKER_01: You know, Stephen King famously says that.
8:12
SPEAKER_01: Lee Child says that.
8:14
SPEAKER_01: Uh a lot of a lot of you know fabulous writers say that they just sit down and go.
8:19
SPEAKER_01: And I I want to sit in the room and watch them because I mean it's like, really?
8:22
SPEAKER_01: You really do that?
8:23
SPEAKER_01: Um, and maybe they do.
8:25
SPEAKER_01: I guess they say they do.
8:26
SPEAKER_01: I can't conceive of that.
8:28
SPEAKER_01: That's not how I operate.
8:30
SPEAKER_01: Um and you know, for years, I used to, when I was writing other stuff, I used to look at the idea of writing a novel as like scaling an impossible mountain.
8:41
SPEAKER_01: It always seemed like it like an unachievable feat to me because, like, how do you keep all that stuff in your head?
8:46
SPEAKER_01: All those plot threads, and how does everything tie together?
8:49
SPEAKER_01: It seemed to me totally daunting and inconceivable.
8:53
SPEAKER_01: Um, so now that I've done it three times, it's you know, I'm big on outlines, but it's not a linear process for me.
9:04
SPEAKER_01: I don't start with an outline.
9:06
SPEAKER_01: I start with kind of sparks and shoots and ideas.
9:10
SPEAKER_01: Uh, it might be an idea for an opening.
9:12
SPEAKER_01: Uh, uh, as you say, I have an idea of where I'm going, or I have an idea of what the, you know, what the what the heart of the mystery is that we're trying to unwrap.
9:20
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I'll have some big structural points that, you know, so a rough general outline.
9:29
SPEAKER_01: It's like if I were doing an oil painting of a group of people, I might have an oval for the head and another big old trunk, kind of like that.
9:38
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then I'll start homing in on certain sections of it and filling in some more detail.
9:45
SPEAKER_01: And it's not linear for me, as I said, it's very circular.
9:48
SPEAKER_01: So I don't necessarily start at the beginning and start drafting.
9:52
SPEAKER_01: At some point, I do.
9:53
SPEAKER_01: There's a point in the process, I might be a month, two months, three months in of circling, and then my circles are getting closer and closer to the ground level.
10:02
SPEAKER_01: At some point, I'll go, okay, you know what?
10:05
SPEAKER_01: We've been we've been circling this material and solidifying it and getting it more all concrete.
10:10
SPEAKER_01: My outline's kind of been growing and getting more concrete.
10:13
SPEAKER_01: It's time to start page one, chapter one.
10:16
SPEAKER_01: And I'll start to go through.
10:18
SPEAKER_01: As I start to go through and draft, some chapters I can really get through a good draft.
10:24
SPEAKER_01: It's not anywhere near publication quality, but it's it's a reasonable draft.
10:28
SPEAKER_01: It goes beginning, middle, and end.
10:31
SPEAKER_01: Some chapters are still so unknown to me and confusing that I just kind of gloss over those and leave them in sketchy form and skip ahead.
10:40
SPEAKER_01: And then I may skip a whole chunk of the book sometimes and get to, I don't like to write the end, but I get near the end.
10:49
SPEAKER_01: And then I go back and start saying, Oh man, I got all these holes, I gotta fill those in.
10:52
SPEAKER_01: So I'll go back and fill in some things.
10:54
SPEAKER_01: And and gradually, sort of by layers and layers and layers, the draft starts to get to get pretty complete.
11:01
SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, it's it's a it's almost like building a collage.
11:07
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
11:07
SPEAKER_01: That makes sense for me.
11:09
SPEAKER_01: That makes a lot of sense.
11:11
SPEAKER_01: That's like that with the parable too, which is like the opposite end of the spectrum, because a parable is a super simple story.
11:16
SPEAKER_01: The trick with a parable is to have kind of minimal detail and make the story very simple.
11:22
SPEAKER_01: It should be at a reading level that like anybody could, like literally a child could read it, um, and yet still have depth, still have real people who go through real trials and tribulations and and you laugh with them and cry with them.
11:36
SPEAKER_01: It's real, but it's very, very simplified.
11:39
SPEAKER_01: I still write it the same way in that kind of collage, non-linear way.
11:44
SPEAKER_00: Is it a challenge?
11:45
SPEAKER_00: Because you you work with a lot of different collaborators.
11:48
SPEAKER_00: Is it a challenge to adjust to the style of each collaborator that you work with?
11:52
SPEAKER_00: Because I I can imagine Dan Rockwell, Brandon Webb, Bob Berg, all the other people that you've collaborated with, they all have a different way of working with a with a uh with an author or a co-writer.
12:03
SPEAKER_00: So with each new person that you collaborate with, is there kind of a period where you're like, okay, I've got to figure out the way they work the best and I kind of adjust things on my end and and so forth?
12:14
SPEAKER_01: Uh yes and no.
12:15
SPEAKER_01: The yes part is there is a you know learning period where I kind of learn what they're communicate, how they communicate, how they like to work in terms of our communication.
12:24
SPEAKER_01: Um, there are some people who are like they'll answer an email in five minutes.
12:28
SPEAKER_01: There's some people who have uh that doesn't their schedule doesn't allow that.
12:32
SPEAKER_01: Uh, there are people who are who are really fluid on email, and others it's gotta be on the phone, and others it's gotta.
12:38
SPEAKER_01: So there's lots of different sort of styles of communication in terms of the writing process.
12:43
SPEAKER_01: Not so much, it's mostly the same.
12:45
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
12:46
SPEAKER_01: Because in terms of the writing process, it's kind of like well, once I've got what I want from them, what I need from them, um, it might be their material, their story, their views of the world.
12:58
SPEAKER_01: We've had enough conversation, and it's time to start to write the book.
13:02
SPEAKER_01: I kind of shut the doors and I just go.
13:05
SPEAKER_01: Um, there there are writing collaborations I know of where you know, I'll write a chapter, you write a chapter, I write a chapter, and I do it like that.
13:13
SPEAKER_01: I pretty much write write the whole thing.
13:16
SPEAKER_01: Like in the case of Brandon.
13:17
SPEAKER_01: So Brandon's a great example.
13:19
SPEAKER_01: So Brandon is actually a very decent writer himself, and he's been writing uh journalism nonfiction for for you know for years.
13:27
SPEAKER_01: The way we work on our our chief Finn books is once we've hashed out a big picture plot, uh the this the situation, the premise, and kind of the mystery at the heart of it, which may come from his experience or it may just be stuff that we cook up, I'll start going and then I'll I'll go along for a while and be drafting drafting.
13:47
SPEAKER_01: I'll say, I need, I don't know how what would this look like?
13:49
SPEAKER_01: And I'll I'll email say, yo, uh our guy is gonna go take a little boat across this body of water in the middle of a storm.
13:58
SPEAKER_01: What would that be like?
13:59
SPEAKER_01: And so he'll draft what that's like.
14:01
SPEAKER_01: I'll take his draft and I'll pull pieces from it and use it kind of as the basis for something that I will then write.
14:08
SPEAKER_01: So I get, you know, I pull pieces from from my co-authors as as I need them to fill in the gaps where my knowledge is or isn't.
14:18
SPEAKER_00: I I love I love that.
14:19
SPEAKER_00: That's been my experience too, in in working with people.
14:22
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes people ask me interesting.
14:24
SPEAKER_00: Um, it almost doesn't matter, you know, when I'm, I guess, on other people's podcasts or having conversations, ghostwriting always comes up because that's kind of my main thing, at least at this point in my career.
14:34
SPEAKER_00: I do my own stuff as well, but ghostwriting is sort of my bread and butter.
14:37
SPEAKER_00: And people seem very interested in the collaboration or the ghostwriting process.
14:42
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes I don't really have the heart to say how something really actually comes together.
14:49
SPEAKER_00: Because many times it's it's a mishmash of well, I pulled some stuff from interviews with with the person or with the client.
14:56
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I contributed some of my own things.
14:58
SPEAKER_00: Um, I found some stuff from an interview they did three or four years ago on a podcast.
15:03
SPEAKER_00: You know, I here's a document they that I have or whatever.
15:06
SPEAKER_00: And I imagine it's like that for you too, as well, where you know, what you actually see on the final page is a it's a it's a mishmash of a lot of different things that you have pulled together in a way that the seams are unrecognizable.
15:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it takes a lot of a lot of work, a lot of polish to to make it flow so that people don't see the seams.
15:28
SPEAKER_00: And what you contributed, what the other person contributed, what came from maybe some other source that you kind of weaved in there.
15:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
15:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
15:37
SPEAKER_01: Like in the Chief Fin stories, Brandon and I have been talking for over a decade because I we did a lot of nonfiction stuff together.
15:44
SPEAKER_01: I did his memoir, and uh I've done other memoirs with him of you know they're Navy SEAL related.
15:51
SPEAKER_01: So I've done a lot of non-fiction writing in the course of which I've had I've logged hundreds of hours of interviews with him, with some of his old teammates, with their family, with their friends.
16:02
SPEAKER_01: And so I'll be in the middle of drafting something, Chief Finn, and something that he said eight years ago, or an experience he talked about, just seems irrelevant here.
16:10
SPEAKER_01: Or one of his teammates explained it this way, and I drop it in there.
16:14
SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, you're pulling from everywhere.
16:16
SPEAKER_01: And in the case, like you say, when you're ghostwriting, the person that you're writing with or writing for, depending on the situation, it's like you soak up like a sponge as much of their stuff as as fits.
16:28
SPEAKER_01: And then it's just it's just x, it's just accessible.
16:30
SPEAKER_01: You can access it as if it were if it were your own experience, you can just pull it from here or pull it from there.
16:36
SPEAKER_00: I'm super curious about your strategy for something.
16:39
SPEAKER_00: This is kind of a granular question.
16:41
SPEAKER_00: But you know, when you write books for a living like we do, um, you have to get pretty granular because this is part of the job.
16:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
16:49
SPEAKER_00: Something that I feel like I spend a lot of time on, or at least I try to, is chapter breaks and transitions from one chapter to the next, or maybe within a chapter, one scene to the next, whatever the case might be.
17:00
SPEAKER_00: How do you think about those?
17:02
SPEAKER_00: I guess I would call them places where you're kind of buttoning up the scene or the chapter and moving on to the next thing.
17:09
SPEAKER_00: I imagine it takes you a lot of time to craft those because you have to think about where you are in the overall arc of the book or the story, as well as you've got to end this chapter or this scene and craft something that is gonna make the reader keep going.
17:24
SPEAKER_00: You can't just end it and randomly start somewhere else.
17:26
SPEAKER_00: There has to be a lot of thought put into that.
17:28
SPEAKER_00: How do you think about that process of transitions between scenes or chapters?
17:33
SPEAKER_00: That's a really, really good question.
17:34
SPEAKER_01: And it, you know, it's it goes to the heart of why it's not a linear, totally linear process for me.
17:41
SPEAKER_01: So it chapter endings uh or hooks or whatever you you know, something that James Patterson is famous for, right?
17:48
SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
17:49
SPEAKER_01: And uh uh you or JL Stein heard him talking the other day.
17:53
SPEAKER_01: His his uh, what is it called?
17:55
SPEAKER_01: The goosebumps books, right?
17:56
SPEAKER_01: For kids.
17:57
SPEAKER_01: He says uh it takes him, oh God, I forgot what he said, but he said it takes him, he every book has a 20 page, I think it was a 20-page outline, 20 chapters, and each one ends with a hook.
18:06
SPEAKER_01: Each one ends with, and he just outlines them all before he does a book.
18:10
SPEAKER_01: I I'm not that logical or organized.
18:13
SPEAKER_01: So for me, some chapters, it just works out that there's this really cool end that I kind of know as I'm going into the chapter, and it just it's pretty, it may not be totally right, but it's close, it's good.
18:25
SPEAKER_01: Some chapters, uh I don't even have any, I have no idea how it ends.
18:29
SPEAKER_01: It's like it, it's like you say, it's an end that just goes off a cliff, it doesn't go anywhere, it just lands with a thud.
18:35
SPEAKER_01: And I'll scratch my head and I go, well, I'll come back to that.
18:38
SPEAKER_01: And then I go on to the next chapter and the next chapter, and the next chapter, and then at the end of a draft, I'll have a bunch of chapters that have just where the readers, you know, the readers going, I got a trick page.
18:48
SPEAKER_01: And then others, like I said, still land with a thud.
18:51
SPEAKER_01: I'll go back to those and go, okay, what was I trying to do in this chapter?
18:54
SPEAKER_01: What's the question this chapter asks?
18:56
SPEAKER_01: What's the what's going on here?
18:59
SPEAKER_01: And I'll go hunting for the ending, which means I often may actually kind of retool the whole chapter.
19:05
SPEAKER_01: Um, there's a there's a chapter in Steel Fear, the first spin book, where he's come on board the aircraft carrier and he's been kind of taken on a tour and he's been shown his room, which is like he says not much bigger, not much smaller than a broom closet.
19:20
SPEAKER_01: And uh, and then the guy leaves him and he's just there.
19:23
SPEAKER_01: And the book had been through draft and many drafts before I finally said, this chapter goes nowhere.
19:29
SPEAKER_01: It it's it's crap.
19:31
SPEAKER_01: And uh uh and I I came up with this this ending when uh the the seal Finn looks around behind him back towards Bahrain where he just came from, he's leaving his team behind, and he doesn't know why.
19:46
SPEAKER_01: And uh the the other guy, other chief, is trying to show him to his room, and the chief says, Everything okay, chief?
19:52
SPEAKER_01: And Finn just turns around and nods, and then it just says, Nothing was okay.
19:56
SPEAKER_01: And whoa, it's the first intimation that you get that something is really seriously screwed up with Finn's situation.
20:04
SPEAKER_01: And it's it's like one of my favorite chapter endings.
20:07
SPEAKER_01: But I I it took me until the book was finished before I could figure out what that chapter was doing there.
20:13
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, sometimes those are like they're like treasure hunts to me.
20:17
SPEAKER_01: And uh finding those little endings of chapters, it's it's like to me one of the joys of writing, of getting it just so, so the whole machine really hungs and clicks.
20:28
SPEAKER_00: It's interesting that you frame that as finding something, because I remember Stephen King in his book on writing talking about this idea that writing is not a process of necessarily making stuff or creating stuff.
20:41
SPEAKER_00: It's like a process of discovery, almost like an archaeologist where you're digging around in the dirt and you're finding things that are already present rather than having to create something from scratch.
20:52
SPEAKER_00: Is that is that is that a way that you think of writing as kind of like you're almost channeling things that are already there, maybe in your subconscious, and you are kind of the you're you're the channel of those things rather than I've got to manufacture or create these things.
21:10
SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure how you kind of think about your own creators.
21:12
SPEAKER_01: It's one of my favorite images, actually, that thing of human kings.
21:15
SPEAKER_01: And he goes, you know, that a book is a found, a story is a found entrepreneur.
21:18
SPEAKER_01: Right, right, right.
21:19
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
21:20
SPEAKER_01: And if the moment I read that in his book, first time, it just clicked with me.
21:23
SPEAKER_01: And it's like, yes, that's exactly how it is for me.
21:26
SPEAKER_01: But I didn't have I didn't have the words to to express it.
21:28
SPEAKER_01: There, I guess there are like three images that that often work for me in terms of that I hold them in my mind when I'm in process.
21:36
SPEAKER_01: One of them is that um, you know, I have this mantra, which is trust the story, trust the story.
21:42
SPEAKER_01: It's not up to me that there's there is a story there.
21:44
SPEAKER_01: There's a story here I'm trying to tell that's like Stephen King's found object.
21:48
SPEAKER_01: And my job is to use a uh a whisk broom, not a pickaxe, so that I don't wreck it in the process of extracting it, um, getting it onto the page.
21:58
SPEAKER_01: Um, another image that I that I really like.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: Is is being a safe cracker.
22:02
SPEAKER_01: It's like there's treasure inside this box, and I gotta listen and feel that feel for the tumblers to click.
22:07
SPEAKER_01: And that's the right wording.
22:08
SPEAKER_01: You know, what's like what's the tumbler to click?
22:10
SPEAKER_01: That's kind of what's the formula that will that will give me access to the treasure in this chapter in this story.
22:16
SPEAKER_01: But the third image, and the one that I I probably use day to day most often, is sitting by the side of a pond at dawn, silent, nothing going on, sun is not even quite poking up yet, and waiting for the fish to pop, and I have a line in the water.
22:32
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I because I I often start the day sitting in my chair with a blank pad of paper, and I honestly have no idea what I'm gonna write.
22:40
SPEAKER_01: I might have a question in my head, and I'm kind of waiting, waiting to see it, see what fish pop up.
22:47
SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, usually something does.
22:51
SPEAKER_00: Wow, I love that.
22:53
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23:15
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23:27
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23:34
SPEAKER_00: Something I'd love to ask you about, John, is how you think of your author career.
23:39
SPEAKER_00: So I'd like to maybe pull out a little bit.
23:42
SPEAKER_00: One of the things that I find so fascinating about what you do is you you do a again a wide variety of things.
23:48
SPEAKER_00: I've already mentioned that.
23:49
SPEAKER_00: And of course, anybody who's who's knows your stuff knows you do a wide variety of books.
23:54
SPEAKER_00: And it's so interesting to me because a lot of writers, they kind of do one thing.
24:00
SPEAKER_00: Like, let's say if they're a fiction writer, uh, they may just do fiction books and they decide to focus their career on that one very specific kind of thing.
24:08
SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's romance novels, you know, and they decide I'm gonna have a very successful career as strictly a romance novelist in a specific genre or whatever.
24:17
SPEAKER_00: And I'm I'm curious how you think about your career as a writer, because there's a lot of different things going on, and it's almost like kind of like a portfolio of different kinds of books and different kinds of collaborations.
24:31
SPEAKER_00: And so I'm I'm just I'm just kind of wondering what you can say about that, because that to me is really refreshing.
24:37
SPEAKER_00: Because there are some of us who are wired, I think like you are, that don't necessarily just want to do one kind of thing.
24:43
SPEAKER_00: We have broader interest and broader creative impulses to just do one style of book.
24:48
SPEAKER_00: Not that there's anything wrong with that, to quote Seinfeld, you know, but but it's the idea of is that a is that an okay way to approach our career for people who are struggling with that?
24:59
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think it's a challenging way, uh, in in in several ways.
25:04
SPEAKER_01: One is that, you know, it makes it harder to promote yourself.
25:08
SPEAKER_01: It makes it harder to to establish a brand, is the is the buzzword these days.
25:13
SPEAKER_01: Um, I mean, if you're if you're Lee Child, you're known for Jack Reacher.
25:17
SPEAKER_01: It's like what he does.
25:18
SPEAKER_01: And the truth is he also has written some killer short stories.
25:22
SPEAKER_01: He's got a great nonfiction book out called The Hero about how we started writing fiction as a human species.
25:28
SPEAKER_01: And he does other stuff, but it's like he's the he's the Jack Reacher guy.
25:32
SPEAKER_01: If you're uh, you know if you're known for a certain genre, even more so a certain character, then you're like that.
25:42
SPEAKER_01: Bob Berg is known for the goalgiver books.
25:45
SPEAKER_01: I'm sort of known for the goalgiver books.
25:48
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I wrote the goalgiver books, but it's like I've also got these thrillers, and but I've also done these other books, which has made it for me, to be honest, uh it's it's it's what I gotta do.
25:59
SPEAKER_01: It's more interesting.
26:00
SPEAKER_01: It's as you say, I'm almost looking kind of that fresh creative spark of trying a new on a new challenge, which I love.
26:06
SPEAKER_01: It also makes it difficult to uh figure out how to focus a website, for example.
26:12
unknown: Right.
26:12
SPEAKER_01: It's like what do you do with a John David Mann website?
26:15
SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, it if I just did go giver books, then I could have a very goalgiver-focused website and I could make a name for myself as that.
26:27
SPEAKER_01: You've got a website, Web and Man.
26:29
SPEAKER_01: I did a website just for the Chief Finn books, which is for Brandon and me, sort of together.
26:33
SPEAKER_01: And it's just a site for the the fin books.
26:38
SPEAKER_01: But maintaining a John David Mann site and a web and man site is it becomes a little bit more complex task.
26:45
SPEAKER_01: You're juggling more.
26:47
SPEAKER_01: And so I think it's a trade-off.
26:49
SPEAKER_01: I I vote for the diversity because I love it.
26:53
SPEAKER_01: I find it really nourishing.
26:55
SPEAKER_01: And the experience of the thrillers feeds into my experience with the parables, the experience of doing people's memoirs really helped me.
27:02
SPEAKER_01: And you know, it's like they all help each other.
27:05
SPEAKER_01: Um just I just want to acknowledge that it is also a trade-off because it is, in terms of building a career, it presents its own kind of challenge.
27:15
SPEAKER_00: Right.
27:15
SPEAKER_00: Right.
27:16
SPEAKER_00: It also seems like like it's a safer way in many ways, because a lot of people, you know, um, you've done a lot of ghostwriting.
27:24
SPEAKER_00: That's primarily what I do right now.
27:26
SPEAKER_00: And a lot of people just write for clients, like they have no desire to put their own books out there or do their own thing, which is totally fine.
27:32
SPEAKER_00: You know, we all have a lot of options, but it does seem a little bit dangerous to only do books where you are the ghostwriter and your name really isn't gonna isn't gonna get out there in terms of people really knowing who you are or anything like that.
27:48
SPEAKER_00: So so then that seems to be a little dangerous to me, which is which is why I'm also doing my own stuff.
27:54
SPEAKER_00: And plus, I'm just interested in doing my own stuff and podcasts and writing membership and all those things.
27:58
SPEAKER_00: So I don't know what to make of that other than I think there's a lot of value in there's a financial some financial security and just not having your financial destiny totally tied to other people all the time.
28:10
SPEAKER_01: Well, that's exactly the thing.
28:12
SPEAKER_01: That's exactly the point there.
28:14
SPEAKER_01: You you it's like when you're uh a ghostwriter for somebody else, you are um placing your your commercial future in their hands.
28:23
SPEAKER_01: Right.
28:24
SPEAKER_01: Right.
28:24
SPEAKER_01: There's very little that you can really do to promote that book.
28:27
SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, something that I've it's taken me a long time to begin learning.
28:33
SPEAKER_01: I was gonna say it takes me a long time to learn, but it's a long time to begin learning, is the the professional, career, financial, commercial aspect, the business aspect, let's call it, of writing, as opposed to the creative aspect.
28:47
SPEAKER_01: I've always focused on the creative aspect and I've always had this sort of mantra which was, well, I do the writing, I'll let my co-author do the do the promoting.
28:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, that works to a degree.
28:58
SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
28:59
SPEAKER_01: I, you know, I've come kind of full circle to the view that when you're a writer of any kind, you kind of need to take responsibility for your business, for the business of your writing.
29:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah um, and so when you again when you're ghostwriting, then and you're relying on somebody else for their platform and their efforts to promote the book.
29:21
SPEAKER_01: If you're ghostwriting for people who have enormous platforms and they have big exposure and they can sell a lot of books, that's fantastic.
29:27
SPEAKER_01: Then you truly can just sign the contract, write the book, and you're in like a kind of creative heaven.
29:33
SPEAKER_01: But uh, I've been through too many experiences where the writing partner wasn't really able to sell as well as I thought.
29:39
SPEAKER_01: Right as I thought.
29:41
SPEAKER_01: Also, I'm saying, how can I help promote this book?
29:44
SPEAKER_01: And if you don't have a name, if you don't have a platform, then it's very difficult to do a lot to promote your books.
29:51
SPEAKER_01: So I guess what I counsel every writer is regardless of your business model, pay attention to the essentials of building your own platform as early on as you can.
30:03
SPEAKER_01: Um, because whatever else happens is a gift, but ultimately you you need to be able to rely on that.
30:11
SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness, yeah.
30:12
SPEAKER_00: And even people who are who are at the quote unquote pinnacle of ghostwriting, um it's that still can be a big challenge.
30:21
SPEAKER_00: So I just read a really long, really long and detailed article by I'm not sure how you pronounce his name.
30:28
SPEAKER_00: It was Prince Harry's Ghostwriter.
30:30
SPEAKER_00: Is it is it Moeringer or something like that?
30:32
SPEAKER_00: I'm pretty sure I'm butchering his name.
30:34
SPEAKER_01: Oh man, I know I don't I don't know how to pronounce that myself.
30:37
SPEAKER_00: He's he wrote uh Andre Augassi's uh is that correct?
30:41
SPEAKER_00: He wrote, yeah, wrote his book, yeah, uh his memoir a number of years ago, and Big Leagues.
30:48
SPEAKER_00: What's that?
30:49
SPEAKER_00: Big Leagues.
30:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, super big leagues.
30:51
SPEAKER_00: What's what was interesting is, and this would this article was in the New York Times a few days ago.
30:54
SPEAKER_00: It was really, really interesting.
30:56
SPEAKER_00: I missed it.
30:56
SPEAKER_00: I gotta I gotta read it.
30:58
SPEAKER_00: I should send you a link to that.
30:59
SPEAKER_00: Um, but he was talking about you know the ins and outs of ghostwriting and and so forth, and because it's pretty much everybody knows that he was involved with that book, yes, then it's not really a secret.
31:10
SPEAKER_00: But so reportedly he was paid a million dollars to do that book.
31:14
SPEAKER_00: But yet he also spent, I think it was three years writing this book, you know, very intensive.
31:19
unknown: Yeah.
31:19
SPEAKER_00: And my thought was okay, that sounds like a lot of money, and that is a lot of money, but if you spread that over three years, and by the time you take out taxes and whatever, you know, it's not as like big as it sounds.
31:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
31:32
SPEAKER_00: So even like at the pinnacle of ghostwriting, it's not like you're you're some crazy billionaire or something.
31:38
SPEAKER_00: It's so it's so true.
31:39
SPEAKER_01: And it's it's so funny when people, you know, we have so many friends who I just know that they hear, oh, yeah, New York Times best-selling record, they must be rolling in it.
31:47
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't necessarily work that way.
31:48
SPEAKER_01: You know, you take it, you take a figure, like$100,000, million dollars, whatever the figure is, you take that figure, you gotta, first of all, you're gonna slice off 50% for your agent, which they totally earn.
31:58
SPEAKER_01: It's complete.
32:00
SPEAKER_01: But so 85% left for you.
32:02
SPEAKER_01: If you're if you're splitting it with the other author, then you then you there's that split.
32:06
SPEAKER_01: Um, there is a taxes, as you say.
32:08
SPEAKER_01: There is the fact that the publisher usually pays it out, meets it out in four installments, not all at once, right?
32:14
SPEAKER_01: Over a period of several years, including a year after the book comes out.
32:18
SPEAKER_01: You know, the book's out on the shelves and people are loving it.
32:21
SPEAKER_01: You still haven't been paid all the way.
32:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:23
SPEAKER_01: And then, as you said, there's all these all the expenses involved.
32:26
SPEAKER_01: You gotta live for three years to write that book or however long it takes.
32:30
SPEAKER_01: Um, let alone, I always consider when I get an advance for a book, I always think about the years I spent learning how to write when I was getting paid zip oh.
32:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I didn't I didn't rack up big college debts because I didn't go to college, but I racked up you know my own big personal debts in a sense, giving myself my own education.
32:51
SPEAKER_01: So the the even the big money is not nearly as big as as it seems to the to the uh common observer, um, to the objective observer.
33:01
SPEAKER_01: And uh and so yeah, it's it's there is the bottom line of it is you're an entrepreneur.
33:07
SPEAKER_01: When you're a writer, you're an entrepreneur, and so you have to approach it that way.
33:11
SPEAKER_01: Um and and you know, and be planning.
33:15
SPEAKER_00: Is there a way that that you would recommend authors can start to think more like entrepreneurs and business people?
33:21
SPEAKER_00: Because many times creative people struggle with this aspect of what they do.
33:25
SPEAKER_00: They want to make a living at it, but they tend to, you know, I'm myself included, tend to skew toward the creative aspect.
33:32
SPEAKER_00: Yes, and they all we almost like want to avoid the business and money aspects of it sometimes.
33:36
SPEAKER_00: How have you, as a successful person, learned to kind of embrace that aspect of what you do?
33:43
SPEAKER_01: Uh at first dragging and screaming, and dragging and kicking kicking and screaming is the expression, sorry.
33:50
SPEAKER_01: And uh, and then uh confusedly, reluctantly, and um and haphazardly, um, gradually with more and more focus.
33:59
SPEAKER_01: You know, one thing I recommend is is a great way to focus your your your business head, your entrepreneurial lens on your own writing career, is to is to home in on your email list and your website.
34:15
SPEAKER_01: Um even with social media, blah, blah, blah, um, it's it's very dubious as to whether to what degree even a huge social media following translates into engagement, i.e., buying copies of your book.
34:30
SPEAKER_01: Um the the one, and I've interviewed a lot of writers about this about how do you promote your books, and even a lot of huge best-selling writers will say, you know, I really don't kind of know.
34:40
SPEAKER_01: I'm still kind of learning that myself.
34:42
SPEAKER_01: But one thing that I hear over and over and over from writers of all stripes is your fundamental economic engine for your book is your website and your mailing list.
34:54
SPEAKER_01: And a good author website has one and and only one function, one central function, and that's to get names.
35:00
SPEAKER_01: It's not to sell books.
35:02
SPEAKER_01: Bookstores do that.
35:03
SPEAKER_01: It's not to promote yourself, it's not to put out your personality, it's not to establish a brand, it's none of those things, which is what authors tend to try to do, all those things.
35:14
SPEAKER_01: Forget about all that.
35:16
SPEAKER_01: It's to build a list, it's to get names.
35:18
SPEAKER_01: Names of people who are interested in you and who will buy a copy of your book when it comes out.
35:23
SPEAKER_01: And then in exchange for that, you you you need to give them something that's exclusive and it's free and it's just for them, whatever that little thing is.
35:33
SPEAKER_01: And ideally, be giving them uh some kind of newsletter that's personable, that's easy, that's got value, um, and it is not you know complicated, and it doesn't sell, it just talk to them.
35:48
SPEAKER_01: The the single most valuable marketing commodity there is is a human touch.
35:54
SPEAKER_01: Um, people want to want to have conversations with an author more than anything else.
35:59
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, appearing in bookstores, doing book tours, and uh conversing with your readership through, particularly through your your email newsletter, but any other way you can.
36:11
SPEAKER_01: You know, there are great authors who are masterful at social media because they keep it simple and they just answer everybody, they just talk.
36:20
SPEAKER_01: You know, Bob Berg is famous for this, but you look you go look at uh Robert Crace, C-R-A-I-S, on uh on Twitter.
36:28
SPEAKER_01: This guy was writing for Hill Street Blues, Cagney and Lacey, Miami Vice.
36:34
SPEAKER_01: I mean, he's like such an established figure of TV writing, and he's got this series of detective books that for which he's won just every award imaginable.
36:44
SPEAKER_01: He's like at the top of the of the mystery writers pantheon.
36:47
SPEAKER_01: And you go follow him on Twitter, and he's like an ordinary guy, he answers everybody.
36:52
SPEAKER_01: It's authentic, it's personable, it's simple, it's no big deal.
36:56
SPEAKER_01: He doesn't have a staff doing it for him, it's just Bob.
37:00
SPEAKER_01: And uh I don't know what he spends, an hour a day, half an hour a day.
37:04
SPEAKER_01: I don't know, you know, but it's simple.
37:06
SPEAKER_01: And and that's to me, the best promotion is simple, it's personable, it's just you.
37:12
SPEAKER_00: That's really good advice.
37:13
SPEAKER_00: That's really, really good advice because we tend to make things so complicated, yeah, especially with social media.
37:17
SPEAKER_00: We think we've got to have all these.
37:20
SPEAKER_00: Crazy things, so daunting.
37:22
SPEAKER_01: Like you feel like you have to know a lot, right?
37:24
SPEAKER_01: You feel like you have to have all kinds of skills.
37:27
SPEAKER_01: I've got to record all these videos and get on TikTok and I've got to do all this stuff.
37:30
SPEAKER_01: I, you know, what I've learned, and I've tried to do that, I've tried to do lots of kinds of things that I wasn't naturally drawn to, spent money, spent time, spent heartache, and gotten no results.
37:41
SPEAKER_01: Um, if you're gifted at or inclined to various kinds of marketing channels, fabulous, terrific.
37:48
SPEAKER_01: But that's all gravy.
37:50
SPEAKER_01: This direct personal conversation with your readers and developing that core of readership.
37:55
SPEAKER_01: You know, being able to promote your book, to announce your book to a hundred readers who know who you are and you've talked to them for months every month for a year, is way more valuable than showing up on uh ABC Good Morning on television and talking to a million people.
38:14
SPEAKER_01: Because the million people aren't going to go buy your book, but those hundred people are, and they're gonna tell their friends way more valuable that you create a relationship.
38:23
SPEAKER_00: A few minutes ago, you mentioned the New York Times, and I'd love to ask your perspective on this because you've been on that list.
38:29
SPEAKER_00: Um, so you would you would know what is the value of because a lot of authors debate, you know, is how much is that is it valuable to have to be on those those bestseller lists, building your author career.
38:42
SPEAKER_00: From your perspective, what is the value of being a New York Times bestseller?
38:47
SPEAKER_01: Uh uh, I'm not sure if I can he says intelligently speaking.
38:53
SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure if I can quantify it.
38:55
SPEAKER_01: There's no question.
38:57
SPEAKER_01: It's a label that has some magic to it, has some cachet to it.
39:01
SPEAKER_01: It's it's it's it's lovely to be able to say, Oh New York Times bestselling writer.
39:06
SPEAKER_01: That said, it's almost impossible to get by design.
39:10
SPEAKER_01: Um formula for getting on that list is way more secretive than uh Colonel Sanders, Kentucky.
39:19
SPEAKER_01: And it's often so counterintuitive.
39:22
SPEAKER_01: And I've had books come out that were selling way more copies in their first week than a bunch of other books that got on their list.
39:27
SPEAKER_01: But and we weren't manipulating, they were just genuine, they didn't get on the list.
39:31
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, chase, I think chasing after the Times list is a fool's errand.
39:36
SPEAKER_01: If if you happen, if it works that you that you get a book on that list, it is certainly valuable.
39:41
SPEAKER_01: But here's what I think is more valuable.
39:43
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think, by the way, winning awards, there are there are so many awards in so many different genres.
39:49
SPEAKER_01: I think it's worth it to know the awards in your genre and to make sure your publisher, or if you self-publisher, go after those awards because um that has value.
39:59
SPEAKER_01: Um, it in some ways it's almost more value than a bestseller list.
40:03
SPEAKER_01: And um to be able to display that on your website or to cite that on your bio.
40:08
SPEAKER_01: But here's what I think is the most valuable asset in terms of visibility and promotion and acknowledgement reader reviews on Amazon.
40:17
SPEAKER_01: And I'll add Goodreads and Barnes and Noble to that, but particularly Amazon because it has the biggest footprint, the biggest visibility, the number of reader reviews, that is a goal that I pursue with more focus than sales.
40:31
SPEAKER_01: You can't go after a sales number, I think.
40:34
SPEAKER_01: I mean, maybe you can, but I think it's another fool's errand is to try to pursue a specific sales number.
40:39
SPEAKER_01: I really want to sell 5,000 copies of my book.
40:42
SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, so do I, but how do you translate that into making it happen?
40:46
SPEAKER_01: You don't have a lot of leverage there.
40:48
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I really want to see a hundred reader reviews in my first six months.
40:56
SPEAKER_01: That's the goal I can wrap around because I will tell every friend I talk to, they say, I loved your book.
41:01
SPEAKER_01: And I'll say, Oh, thank you so much.
41:03
SPEAKER_01: I'm so I appreciate that.
41:05
SPEAKER_01: Leave a review.
41:06
SPEAKER_01: If you have the time, go to Amazon, leave a review.
41:08
SPEAKER_01: One line, I don't care what you say.
41:10
SPEAKER_01: You don't have to love it, even if you just liked it.
41:12
SPEAKER_01: Even if you didn't like it, in fact, even negative reviews, reader reviews on Amazon are like gold.
41:19
SPEAKER_01: Um, and and particularly because most people don't think of doing it.
41:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they'll tell you how much they love your book, they'll tell their friends about your book.
41:28
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't occur to them to go and leave a review on Amazon because they don't understand how important it is.
41:35
SPEAKER_01: It it not only in two ways.
41:38
SPEAKER_01: One is if someone fresh goes to the goes to Amazon, they look and they happen to find your book and it says 14 reviews, it says one thing to them.
41:47
SPEAKER_01: If it says 65 reviews, if it says 300 reviews, they go like, oh, it's like a busy restaurant, must be good food.
41:53
SPEAKER_01: I shouldn't check it out.
41:54
SPEAKER_01: Whereas if you go by a restaurant and there's nobody in there, you go like, yeah, this place must suck, right?
41:58
SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
41:59
SPEAKER_01: Reviews are like that to the reader's perception, but they're also like that to Amazon's own algorithmic perception.
42:05
SPEAKER_01: You get a bunch of reader reviews pop up quickly in your first week.
42:10
SPEAKER_01: Amazon's algorithm sees that and says, Oh, this is a hot commodity.
42:14
SPEAKER_01: We should promote this more.
42:16
SPEAKER_01: And the the robots start going in and actually mentioning your book, showing up, showing it to more potential readers.
42:22
SPEAKER_01: So it has enormous promotional value, particularly in that first week, uh, first day.
42:29
SPEAKER_01: So if you can line up people to review the book when it comes out, uh, and I don't mean artificially manipulating it, I mean genuinely like let your close fans know, hey, this really matters to me.
42:42
SPEAKER_01: It'll make a difference in how many people find out about this book.
42:45
SPEAKER_01: Please leave a review, even if it's a short one.
42:48
SPEAKER_00: When you're launching a book, do you have any kind of a system that you use to track, hey, I asked this person to leave a review, they did or they didn't.
42:55
SPEAKER_00: Like, do you go back and check that stuff and then maybe follow up a time or two if they haven't left the review yet?
43:02
SPEAKER_01: I've done that a little bit sporadically.
43:05
SPEAKER_01: I remember doing that with Steel Fear when it first came out.
43:08
SPEAKER_01: I remember doing it with Go Giver Marriage when it first came out.
43:10
SPEAKER_01: But but to me, it if it I quickly discovered it's something where I could make myself pretty crazy pretty fast.
43:18
SPEAKER_01: I can't imagine.
43:19
SPEAKER_01: And so I finally started going like, dude, that life is too short.
43:22
SPEAKER_01: Just let people know.
43:23
SPEAKER_01: Tell them, tell them, tell them, tell them, tell them.
43:25
SPEAKER_01: But but you know, I keep checking the number, I want to see it, but I've I've pretty much stopped trying to keep track of of who leaves a review and who doesn't.
43:35
SPEAKER_01: I'll see some a review pop up and I know who that person is and I'll thank them.
43:40
SPEAKER_01: That that's something that I'll do.
43:42
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes you don't know because their Amazon username is different than their name that you know them by and so forth.
43:48
SPEAKER_00: U My wife and I have sat pouring over that list going, who could that be?
43:52
SPEAKER_01: And then like by the wording of it, we know, oh, I know who that is.
43:55
SPEAKER_00: Like busted, man.
43:56
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
43:57
SPEAKER_00: Who's crazy Johnny8253?
44:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
44:00
SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's my cousin.
44:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
44:03
SPEAKER_00: That's funny.
44:03
SPEAKER_00: Well, John, I want to respect your time uh for sure.
44:06
SPEAKER_00: And I appreciate gosh, these insights so much.
44:08
SPEAKER_00: I've been furiously taking notes.
44:09
SPEAKER_00: Even though I'm recording this, I always take notes when I'm doing this.
44:13
SPEAKER_00: I want to ask about your writing mastery mentorship because I'm super intrigued from a person who works with writers myself.
44:20
SPEAKER_00: I'm super intrigued by how you've put this together and how it's going.
44:23
SPEAKER_00: But also I want to let our listeners know about this because such a cool opportunity to learn from one of the true working writing masters.
44:32
SPEAKER_00: That was a really awkward phrase, but I'll put that.
44:35
SPEAKER_00: It's a great opportunity to learn from you uh about the craft and the business of writing.
44:39
SPEAKER_00: So anything that you want to share with us about that?
44:42
SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, I mean, a couple of things.
44:43
SPEAKER_01: The first thing is it's funny, I I noticed at one point that it's partly selfish that I did this thing.
44:50
SPEAKER_01: Uh, it's been those times in my career where I've mentored somebody, like in a big way, when I work with somebody on their book or in a writing position where I've learned the most.
45:01
SPEAKER_01: Um, because it makes me have to kind of uh reverse engineer what it is that I do and in a way that I don't think of when I'm just doing it myself.
45:12
SPEAKER_01: And so putting this the curriculum for this program together has been an incredible experience for me, let alone before I was even teaching it to anybody, just to start kind of plumbing the depths of what goes on in my own head, in my own writing process.
45:27
SPEAKER_01: Um, then when I start to actually interact with students, it's it's been such a joy, such a blast.
45:32
SPEAKER_01: So, quickly, the the nuts and bolts, the ABCs of it.
45:35
SPEAKER_01: It's a one-year program.
45:37
SPEAKER_01: It's all online, and it's you know, basically three components.
45:41
SPEAKER_01: There's the actual curriculum, this sort of linear sequence of lessons that of my training, um, which I do through Zoom, and then archive the recording so people can go back and rewatch anytime.
45:53
SPEAKER_01: And then number two, we have these live coaching calls.
45:57
SPEAKER_01: Um, the trainings as the future unwraps will be more and more just will be recorded in the archive bank.
46:03
SPEAKER_01: But the the coaching calls, which I do twice a week, are always live, group coaching.
46:07
SPEAKER_01: And whoever shows up that week shows up that week.
46:10
SPEAKER_01: Um, whoever has a question or an issue with their writing, and I have no agenda.
46:15
SPEAKER_01: It's just like, okay, who's got it who's got a question this week?
46:18
SPEAKER_01: And so it's free form, and that's a lot of fun with that.
46:21
SPEAKER_01: And those go for the duration of the year.
46:23
SPEAKER_01: And finally, there's an online community that we have where the writers in the program support each other and ask questions, and I can answer those questions or comment.
46:33
SPEAKER_01: People put up their homework assignments because every lesson has an assignment with it.
46:37
SPEAKER_01: And the assignments are short and they're pretty straightforward and they're pretty easy.
46:41
SPEAKER_01: It's not onerous homework.
46:43
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I got people in the program already.
46:45
SPEAKER_01: I'm in my first iteration right now, and I got people who are writing novels, fantasy, parables, memoir, business books.
46:54
SPEAKER_01: It's like fiction, nonfiction, it's everything, which is really challenging, but also really fascinating.
47:00
SPEAKER_01: I love the diversity of it.
47:02
SPEAKER_01: And um and yeah, I'm I've got I've just for the month of June, I've opened the enrollment doors again for the second like uh uh tranch, second batch, second crew of of people in the program.
47:17
SPEAKER_01: And I just I can't, I I wanted to do something like this for years, but I could never figure out how to do it and finally uh got a form together, and I'm just having a ball doing it.
47:26
SPEAKER_00: Learning, I'm learning so much.
47:28
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
47:29
SPEAKER_00: I'm so excited you're doing this because it man, what a great opportunity to learn from learn from one of the best out there.
47:35
SPEAKER_01: So I'm I'm taking a book of my own.
47:37
SPEAKER_00: I'm taking a book of my own through the program.
47:39
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, well, that's really cool too.
47:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
47:43
SPEAKER_00: I just think it's so cool because a lot of people who do writing, they sort of just want to be a recluse, which is that's fine, you know, nothing wrong with that.
47:50
SPEAKER_00: But I love it when people are actually doing the work, but then they kind of open up their life and their process so other people can learn from it.
47:58
SPEAKER_00: And to have the chance to learn from you personally is even uh much cooler thing.
48:02
SPEAKER_00: So so thanks for serving the world of writers this way.
48:06
SPEAKER_01: Oh man, you are so welcome.
48:07
SPEAKER_01: I'll add one comment to that.
48:08
SPEAKER_01: You know, earlier I said the thing about you know being an entrepreneur as a writer is focusing on that website and your and your mail list, your your core platform.
48:16
SPEAKER_01: Something else I would add to that, and I wish I'd known this earlier, the importance of this.
48:21
SPEAKER_01: I cannot overstress the importance of getting to know other writers, getting to know other writers in your field.
48:28
SPEAKER_01: Um, I being a crime writer now, I've I've gotten to meet some of the top crime writers in the in the field, and they've just been enormously helpful to my career, just making me feel like I'm on the right track sometimes.
48:40
SPEAKER_01: Actually, they've helped me with certain connections with certain pragmatically and emotionally and socially, let alone in terms of the craft learning from them in terms of what they do.
48:52
SPEAKER_01: I cannot overstress the importance of growing your circle of colleagues.
48:56
SPEAKER_01: It's just incredibly valuable.
48:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
49:00
SPEAKER_00: That's really one of the reasons I've done this podcast for so long.
49:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I just want to connect with people and learn.
49:05
SPEAKER_00: This is it's kind of like my way to get free coaching from people.
49:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
49:08
SPEAKER_00: Not really.
49:10
unknown: Yeah.
49:11
SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say not really, but yeah, it kind of is because I'd I learned from every single guest that I have.
49:16
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I just get to share that learning with other people, which I love.
49:19
SPEAKER_00: It's awesome.
49:20
SPEAKER_00: It's great.
49:20
SPEAKER_00: I'm so glad you're doing it.
49:21
SPEAKER_00: I am so glad you're doing it.
49:22
SPEAKER_00: And you've had me on a bunch of times.
49:25
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
49:25
SPEAKER_00: And I'm sure this won't be your last appearance either because you're cranking at a book at like, you know, once every two or three weeks, you've got a new book coming out.
49:32
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
49:32
SPEAKER_01: Every day.
49:34
unknown: Yeah.
49:34
SPEAKER_00: Well, John, thank you so much.
49:35
SPEAKER_00: This has been an absolute blast, as always.
49:37
SPEAKER_00: I'm so excited about your new books coming out.
49:39
SPEAKER_00: I'm excited about your mentorship program.
49:42
SPEAKER_00: And when you come to St.
49:44
SPEAKER_00: Louis on your book tour, um, I'm hoping we can connect then.
49:47
SPEAKER_00: That would be great to meet in person.
49:49
SPEAKER_00: This is going to be so much fun.
49:50
SPEAKER_01: Going to Southern California, I'm going to Texas, Dallas and Waco, I'm going to St.
49:53
SPEAKER_01: Louis, Nashville, Manhattan.
49:55
SPEAKER_01: It's just like I I there's nothing I love more after a book is all done.
50:00
SPEAKER_01: This is like dessert to go out and meet meet readers face to face.
50:03
SPEAKER_00: And this this is for um this is for the new thriller, correct?
50:07
SPEAKER_00: Not for the Dan Rockwell book.
50:08
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
50:09
SPEAKER_00: That's what I thought.
50:11
SPEAKER_00: And did uh just so just out of curiosity, did the did the PR people line those up or is this something that you put together?
50:17
SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm kind of the initiator uh of it, but they've been the the publishers, the marketing department of the publisher, I'm with Bantam for these thrillers, they've been fabulous uh working with me.
50:28
SPEAKER_01: And so there have been times where I've like, I'm trying to reach this store and I can't get an answer.
50:32
SPEAKER_01: Could you guys and they'll go and they'll they'll get the thing, they'll get the connection made.
50:35
SPEAKER_01: Or we'll say, like, I want to go to this city, but I I don't know anybody there, I don't know any stores there.
50:40
SPEAKER_01: And they go, they say, Oh, we know who who to go to there.
50:42
SPEAKER_01: So in St.
50:43
SPEAKER_01: Louis, they've done things with with the St.
50:45
SPEAKER_01: Louis County Library before.
50:46
SPEAKER_01: And they said, Yeah, gotcha.
50:48
SPEAKER_01: I had a friend who said, try that, and they said, Oh, yeah, we'll definitely contact them.
50:51
SPEAKER_01: So they made the contact.
50:53
SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, that fantastic.
50:54
SPEAKER_00: That's cool.
50:55
SPEAKER_00: Well, it sounds like I need to contact them too to do to do something.
50:58
SPEAKER_00: That would be a blast.
51:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
51:00
SPEAKER_00: I look forward to meeting you there.
51:02
SPEAKER_00: I hope I do anyway.
51:03
SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
51:03
SPEAKER_00: That would be fun.
51:04
SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm working on my my dad's Vietnam memoir comes out this uh Veterans Day, actually.
51:09
SPEAKER_00: We've been working on that for a couple of years.
51:11
SPEAKER_00: So um, yeah, I'm really excited to get that out.
51:15
SPEAKER_00: Is it in page groups?
51:16
SPEAKER_01: Is it in page groups now?
51:17
SPEAKER_00: Uh no, we're not finished with it.
51:19
SPEAKER_00: It's he actually he actually wrote a draft of it.
51:22
SPEAKER_00: Um so I'm going through and doing all the edits basically.
51:25
SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of like a ghostwriting thing, but he he really has been the primary writer.
51:29
SPEAKER_01: So oh man, that's so valuable.
51:32
SPEAKER_01: I mean my wife and I, both of our dads fought in World War II, and they they don't have a memoir.
51:37
SPEAKER_01: And and you know, we're so grateful that we heard their stories from their lips because they're not written down anywhere.
51:43
SPEAKER_01: It's like so glad that uh you and he are doing that together.
51:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, me too.
51:47
SPEAKER_00: It's gonna be a lot of fun.
51:49
SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you again.
51:50
SPEAKER_00: This has been a blast, and can't wait to get this interview out there.
51:52
SPEAKER_00: My pleasure.
51:54
SPEAKER_00: Joy as always.
51:56
SPEAKER_00: Hey, wasn't that a fun interview with John?
51:58
SPEAKER_00: I loved his insights on storytelling, writing, collaboration, all the things.
52:02
SPEAKER_00: John is a master storyteller and writer.
52:05
SPEAKER_00: And if you have a chance to come out and meet him in person at his St.
52:08
SPEAKER_00: Louis event on August the 9th, that's a Wednesday, and that happens at 8 p.m.
52:13
SPEAKER_00: at the Daniel Boone branch of the St.
52:15
SPEAKER_00: Louis County Library.
52:16
SPEAKER_00: If you have a chance to do that, if you're in the area, my goodness, it would be so much fun to meet you in person, and it would be so cool for us together to help support John's book launch.
52:25
SPEAKER_00: And if you don't happen to be in the St.
52:27
SPEAKER_00: Louis area, I encourage you to grab that book when it comes out in just a few weeks.
52:31
SPEAKER_00: I think you'll really enjoy it.
52:32
SPEAKER_00: Many thanks to John for taking the time to be a guest today.
52:35
SPEAKER_00: And as always, thank you so much for listening, and I'll see you next time.