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Trump and CNN Together Again · Pod Save America

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: On today's show, Donald Trump is making nice with CNN,
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: snubbing Fox's debate, and throwing an NBC reporter's phone. President
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: Biden and Democrats consider break glass options to avoid a
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: debt default. Chasten Buttigieg stops by Cricket HQ to talk
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: to Lovett about his new book. And later, we'll talk
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: about the racist texts that may have gotten Tucker Carlson fired.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: But first, the first episode of Pod Save the UK
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: is finally out. This hilarious and insightful new podcast is
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: your go-to source for everything UK politics. Hosted by comedian
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: Nish Kumar and journalist Coco Khan, it's everything you love
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: about Cricket Podcasts, but with a British twist. From strikes
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: to scandals, they cover all the topics that matter. This
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: is from us at Cricket and our friends at Reduce Listening.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: You won't want to miss a single episode of Pod
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: Save the UK. Listen to the first episode now, wherever
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. It's fantastic. Check it out. Go subscribe.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: You will not be disappointed. All right, let's get to
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: the news. Dan Donald Trump is really having a week.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: Really having a week.
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: Can we say that every week?
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: I know, this week, yeah. We'll say it a lot.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: We'll say it a lot. The twice-impeached criminal defendant who
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: incited a violent insurrection is somehow once again in control
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: of the Republican primary and the media spotlight. On Wednesday night,
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: he'll participate in a live town hall on CNN, hosted
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: by journalist Caitlin Collins. This is Trump's first appearance on
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: CNN since 2016. And his first non-MAGA media appearance... since
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: he stormed out of a 60 Minutes interview with Leslie
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: Stahl in 2020. I completely forgot that happened.
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: What, 2020?
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: The year? Yes. Let's go with that, actually. Yeah, let's
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: go with that. No, the storming out of the interview.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: That was a fun one. That was a fun one.
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: Why do you think he's finally leaving the comfort of
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: his MAGA media bubble? Smart move? Dumb move? What do
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: you think?
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: Well, look, if you get the opportunity to appear on
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: a ratings rocket ship like CNN, you don't pass it up. Look,
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: was it a smart move? You know what? Ask me
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: next week after he's gone on air and we'll see
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: if he said something completely insane or if he used
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: the time well.
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: If he says something completely insane.
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: Well, let me put it this way.
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: There are ways to go on CNN and say completely
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: insane things that will further strengthen his hold on the
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: Republican nomination. And there are ways to go on CNN
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: and make his life worse. And so we will see
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: how that goes.
• 2:53
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think the downsides are he reminds most
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: viewers why they don't ever want him to be president again,
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: which is, you know, it's a safe bet.
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: Most viewers of CNN.
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: Most viewers of CNN, right. Yeah, that's most viewers of CNN. Obviously,
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: the upside is he gets attention. He's been a little
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: starved for attention lately. He hasn't been tweeting. He's not
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: on TV a lot. So he's looking for attention. And
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: I think this will get him attention not only from
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: the CNN audience, but But from other outlets that cover
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: the town hall, he can show Republican voters that, you know,
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: he's the only one tough enough to take on the
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: fake news while Ron DeSantis is just in his MAGA
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: media bubble. And, you know, if if Caitlin Collins calls
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: out his bullshit. And he gets in a fight with her,
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: then he knows that the MAGA media will defend him
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: the next day. And there'll be a rally around Trump
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: effect because the mean CNN fake media attacked Donald Trump,
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: attacked our favorite president. Look, it takes a.
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: Brave man to take on the powerhouse that is CNN
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: these days. I mean, besides my previous joke, I think
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: this is probably a win-win for him. If he does well,
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: he actually gets to reach out, probably not through CNN,
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: but through the coverage of it, to Republican voters who
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: like Trump but are skeptical of his ability to win.
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: He sends a signal he's doing things differently than his
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: disastrous 2020 campaign. And that has been, for all of
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: the insanity that is Trump, there is the method versus
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: madness quotient in his 2023 campaign so far. has been
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: slightly more in the method category. There is a plan here,
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: and this is part of that plan. Can he execute
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: that plan? History would say no, but I understand why
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: he is doing this, and it makes some strategic sense
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: given what he's trying to do both in this immediate
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: short term of the primary and then the longer need
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: to unify the party and appeal to people are pretty
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: skeptical of him.
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: Philip Bump of the Washington Post wrote a piece the
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: other day arguing that there is little journalistic value in
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: broadcasting Trump's comments live, especially in a town hall format
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: where it won't be as easy for Caitlyn to call
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: out his bullshit as it would be in a one-on-one
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: interview if it was just she and him for an hour.
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: What do you think about that? Is CNN repeating their
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: 2016 mistakes? Is this different?
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: It depends on which 2016 mistake we are discussing. Is
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: it the airing of the empty podium for hours at
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: a time to try to juice viewers? They're not repeating
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: that one. I very much agree with Philip. It's not
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: only is there not much journalistic value, it actually runs
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: counter to the stated purpose of journalism, which is to
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: provide your consumers and viewers with accurate information. And you're
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: making a strategic decision to give them inaccurate information. And
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: that is not Caitlin Collins' fault. I think she will
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: do as well as anyone in holding him to account.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: She is definitely, if you've seen her questioning him at
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: press conferences, she's not afraid of him in any way, shape,
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: or form. But it's impossible to do it. Even in
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: a one-on-one interview, it's impossible. What are you going to do?
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: Just keep asking over and over and over again as
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: a clock ticks about the one specific thing? No, you
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: move on. And so the people who watch this will
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: be exposed to disinformation and probably the exact disinformation that
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: led to a violent assault on the Capitol. And so CNN,
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: of course, they're going to do this. They would never
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: turn this down. This is a chance at ratings. It's
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: a chance to be relevant to things they've been struggling with.
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: And But Philip is completely right about that the press still,
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: I think they know how to cover Trump. They just
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: don't want to make the tough decisions to do that.
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I do think that there are, there
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: have been a few interviewers with Trump who've been one-on-one
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: who have done, and this is all relative, but have
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: done some political damage to him. Like they have not
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: been good news cycles following those interviews, let's say. It
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: does not, nothing lasts with Trump or anything in politics,
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: but savannah jake jonathan swan have all sort of interviewed
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: trump in pretty tough ways i think and not live
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: in most and not live that's true that's true i
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: mean it is i think it and if you've seen
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: other cnn town halls with candidates they've done with biden
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: with other candidates it is both possible and necessary that
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: caitlin asks tough follow-ups and fact checks them on the
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: spot after because if you're just gonna if you're just
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: gonna let voters ask them questions and broadcast it then
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: it's a Well, because then he can do he's just
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: going to run right over them and say whatever he wants,
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: you know. But but Caitlyn could, if he lies to
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: the voter, step in, ask him a tough follow up.
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: And there's so much to ask him, too. I mean,
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: the fact that he hasn't done a media interview with
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: a real journalist since fucking 2020 is nuts. Like all
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: the indictments, the insurrection stuff, there was, you know, four people.
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: Proud Boys were just convicted today of seditious conspiracy, including
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: Enrique Tarrio, the leader of the Proud Boys, which certainly
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: doesn't bode well for a prosecution against Trump for helping
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: to incite the insurrection since he is buddy buddies with
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: the Proud Boys. Just lots and lots of stuff to
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: ask him.
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: We'll be watching.
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, we'll be watching. We'll be watching. One place
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: Trump now seems unlikely to appear is the second and
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: possibly first Republican primary debate. So we talked about this
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: possibility a little bit on Tuesday's pod. New York Times
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: has since reported that he is telling his advisors that
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: the second debate is a, quote, non-starter for him because
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: it will be held at the Ronald Reagan Library, which
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: he hates because they haven't invited him to speak over
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: the last couple of years. They invited DeSantis and some others.
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: And because the publisher of the Washington Post is on
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: the board of the Reagan Library. And, of course, he
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: hates the Washington Post. And I guess he might want
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: to skip the first debate because... quote, he doesn't want
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: to debate in August. Who does? And because it's hosted
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: by Fox News. So my take on Tuesday's pod was
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: that there is very little political downside and potentially some
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: upside for Trump if he skips. But what do you think?
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: I agree. I think it's not some potential upside. It
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: is pure upside. I mean, Trump had a quote, and
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: this is like one of the things that is notable
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: about Trump is that He doesn't really buy into the
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: parts of politics where you're supposed to pretend. So Trump's
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: argument was to this is debates are for people who
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: are behind or even, not people who are ahead and
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: I'm winning. So why would I debate? Which is right.
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: That is strategically correct. We all have to pretend otherwise
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: about the value of public debate and exposing yourself to
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: the voters. But from a pure strategic point of view,
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: if you were winning and winning by a lot, and
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: one of the reasons winning by a lot is because
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: your opponents can't get any attention, why would you invite
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: them on stage with you to have a moment to
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: gain traction? It makes no strategic sense for him.
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: When people say that Trump is an honest liar, and
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: that's why people think he's authentic, that's the kind of
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: shit they're talking about, is most candidates wouldn't say that
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: out loud, but Trump just is telling people, yeah, yeah,
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: I'm ahead. I'm not going to take a risk and
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: then have someone attack me on stage. That's crazy.
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it is strategically 100% correct. I don't know why
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: you do it. I don't mind taking August off. to
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: make our life easier if he didn't debate in August, but,
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: but from a strategic point of view, this is all
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: upside for him. And it's really bad news for Ron DeSantis.
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: Also, it's like once you suffer no political consequences from
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: your own party for inciting a violent insurrection and trying
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: to stage a coup, You probably make the calculation that
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: there won't be any political downsides for skipping a few debates.
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think most.
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: It's really like the whole, like, you know, shoot someone
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: in the middle of Fifth Avenue thing. We're just so
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: close to it actually being true.
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: I mean, Trump understands the leverage, and he has all
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: the leverage here. No one knows who the rest of
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: these yahoos are, so he's in charge. The people are
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: going to tune in to see him.
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: Well, so if he does skip, what do you think
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: that means for the other candidates? And... Could you see
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: the RNC canceling them altogether?
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: I don't think the RNC will cancel them because that
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: puts them in a really tough position because they have–
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: even though every single person who works there owes their
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: job to Donald Trump, they have pledged to make this
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: a– they're not going to put their thumb on the scale.
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: They're going to allow everyone from Chris Christie and Asa
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: Hutchinson and Nikki Haley to have a shot, blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: I think for the network partners– they may pull the
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: plug or they're certainly going to be very unhappy with
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: the fact that because it costs them the exact same
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: amount of money to put on this debate, whether Donald
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: Trump appears or not. And the amount you can charge
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: advertisers for commercials during that debate just drop precipitously if
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: Trump doesn't debate. So, you know, maybe Fox says we're
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: going to save that money and send it directly to
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: Dominion voting systems. I don't know, but I don't think
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: the RNC will cancel it, but it wouldn't surprise me
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: if the other, maybe the other candidates pull out, maybe
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: it's not worth it to them or the, network partner
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: backs out. Maybe it's just like a tree falling in the,
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: in the forest. Do you remember in 2016 when the
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: Republicans had two tiers, they were like the top 10
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: candidates were on one stage and then like the bottom
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: four candidates were another stage. I mean, how much do
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: you remember the Carly Fiorina, Lindsey Graham debates of 2016?
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: Known as the undercard debate. And then for, and then
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: didn't for Democrats in 20, We decided to not go
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: with an undercard debate. We just sort of pulled out
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: of a hat to see who would go in which debate, right,
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: when they had to split it up. We did.
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: To ensure that we never had all of the most
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: viable candidates on stage at the same time, that was
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: our plan.
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: Did you see the story this morning that Tucker Carlson
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: wants to host his own forum, his own debate, and
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: he's already approached Trump about it?
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: Smart.
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: That will probably happen.
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: Right? Yeah. And then if you're another– if the other candidates,
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: they probably have to go.
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: Of course they do. I mean you can't anger Tucker.
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: Like you have to do it. And they need to
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: get on stage with Trump. Every single one of them
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: needs to get on stage with Trump. I do wonder,
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: to go back to your question about whether they cancel it,
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: whether Ron DeSantis also pulls out of a debate if
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: Trump is not there. Because what– how diminishing is it
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: for him to be on stage being attacked? They're all
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: going to attack him because now their new strategy is
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: we're going to take out DeSantis so we can be
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: one-on-one with Trump. A strategy that worked perfectly in 2016
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: for all the anti-Trumps. And so he's going to just
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: be taking hits from Asa Hutchinson. I don't think that's
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: good for him either.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: I will say all the things we talked about so
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: far are like very predictable developments that stem from the
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: fact that Donald Trump runs the Republican Party. He is
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: the leader of the Republican Party. He is in full
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: control of the Republican Party. No one has challenged him. Seriously.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: And when no one challenges you, this is the shit
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: that happens. There was a CBS poll out this week
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: that just polled Republican voters. 61% want a candidate who
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: says Trump won in 2020. That's a lot of people.
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: A lot of Republican voters. 58% said that they would
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: vote for Trump today. But 76% are either saying they'll
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: vote for Trump today or are considering Trump. 76% of
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: Republican voters, that is his ceiling, at least in that poll.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: That is quite a big ceiling for a lot of
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: people who are like, well, there's a lot of Trump
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: fatigue and stuff like that. And I thought it might
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: be possible too, but if 76% of people are considering
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: voting for him, it could be over pretty quickly.
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: I think, yes, 100%. And we've said this before, but
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: Once the votes start coming in, if Trump wins early,
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: he's going to win them all and he's going to
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: win fast because Republican primaries are winner take all or
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: winner take most, unlike Democratic primaries. So the ability to
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: survive a couple and emerge later in the process is
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: not available to Republicans the way it is to Democrats.
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: In all of the other candidates' strategies, which are based
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: on subtlety and issues and all this other bullshit, they
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: aren't panning out, according to this poll. Trump is winning
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: among voters who want national abortion bans uh so much
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: for and favor christians so much for mike pence and
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: he's winning among voters who want to challenge woke ideas
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: so much for desantis right like all the stuff that
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: they are all the rest of them are trying to
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: do it's not that's not what voters want they just
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: want trump yeah they want trump or they want someone
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: or they want to win i mean the only option
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: is they that they really want to win and they
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: decide that trump can't help them win that's i think
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: i continue to think that's the only way he could lose.
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: One of the reasons why these electability arguments are challenging
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: is it's hard to say you're more electable when you're
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: getting your ass kicked by the person you say is
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: not electable.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's the problem. So Trump's not
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: yet the Republican nominee, but the party is already trying
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: to screw with the general election debates. Washington Post reports
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: that the RNC has met with the heads of the
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: broadcast networks to see if they'd still air debates if
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: the debates were sponsored by an organization other than then
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: the Commission on Presidential Debates, which has organized every general
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: election debate since 1988. What's their beef with the commission, Dan?
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: Well, everyone hates the commission, as they should. Democrats hate
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: the commission because it... Well, generally, they publish the commission
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: because they've had zero innovations or original thoughts since they
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: hosted the first debate in 1988. They've been the same
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: format ever since. There's been some technological changes in how
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: people get their information since.
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: Then, but... Why.
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: Why would we possibly think of something new? Democrats should
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: hate the commission because in 2020, they were too feckless
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: to enforce their own COVID testing requirements on Donald Trump.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: And he came to the debate reportedly affected with COVID,
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: putting the president, his family, and everyone who works there
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: at risk. Republicans, for a more picky reason, hate the
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: commission because the commission selected Steve Scully of C-SPAN to
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: be the moderator of the second debate. And in the 1970s,
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: Steve Scully was briefly an intern for Joe Biden. This
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: was seen as evidence that he was biased and this
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: was part of some major plot to take down Donald Trump. Now,
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: I also.
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: Remember– Wasn't that debate– was that debate canceled?
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: You know, it's so funny. I could not remember. I
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: knew there was one debate. I knew there was a
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: vice president debate because of the fly. But I could
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: not remember whether one debate was there, two debate. The
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: Steve Scully debate was the second debate. It was canceled
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: because Trump had COVID. And they were unable to come
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: up with an agreement around some sort of remote thing.
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: And Steve Scully obviously was a Biden sleeper cell based
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: on his intern program.
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: Liberal firebrand, Steve Scully.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the guy from C-SPAN.
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: So how much do you think the Biden campaign should
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: care about this? How does this get resolved if they
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: just go around the debate commission? Did the Biden and
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: Trump campaigns just negotiate? themselves over moderators and forums and
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: The campaigns generally do negotiate with each other with the–
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: I don't know how this worked in 2020 given Trump.
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: But in the past, there are meetings that are convened
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: by the commission or sometimes they're done by back channel
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: between the two campaigns around acceptable moderators. Would you be
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: OK with this one? Would you be OK with this one?
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: That's how that's happened in the past. So that same
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: process could theoretically take place. with the outside of the
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: commission process where ABC could come to both campaigns and say,
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: we want to do a town hall style debate focused
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: on the economy and it's going to be moderated by
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: George Stephanopoulos and Robin Roberts or whatever. And then the committee,
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: the parties could say, the two campaigns could say, we're interested,
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: we're not interested, we'd be interested, but do X. So
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: that negotiation process could happen. I think if the commission process,
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: as annoying as it is, were to fall by the wayside,
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: the odds that we actually have debates could go down
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: pretty dramatically.
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I could see that because you could see Trump
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: not wanting to debate. You could see Biden. You could
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: see just no debates. Also, the Trump campaign is going
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: to ask, they're going to be like, okay, yeah, you
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: get George Stephanopoulos and our moderators are going to be
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: Enrique Tarrio from prison and Harlan Crow.
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: They'll be in Harlan Crow's Nazi garden as long as
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: the debate.
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: It's going to happen there. Okay, so one last sign
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: that Trump's relationship with the press hasn't changed all that
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: much since 2016. Vanity Fair's Charlotte Klein reports that back
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: in March, March, this is now May, this is now May,
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: back in March, Trump got so mad when NBC's Vaughn
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: Hilliard asked him about the Manhattan DA's investigation that he
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: grabbed the reporter's two phones, threw them, and said, get
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: him out of here. A few other journalists were there
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: for the incident, including an Axios reporter, but somehow no
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: one reported it until Charlotte did this week. What's going
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: on there? Do they not like making news?
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: That is a great fucking question. This is one of
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: the most bizarre things. I have ever heard. Because this
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: happened in what appears to be some sort of on-the-record
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: Q & A. I would also note that even if
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: it were not on-the-record Q & A, just the way
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: these sort of background and off-the-record rules work is that
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: if you throw someone's phone, that is not automatically... Off
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: the record is not like blanket immunity to do anything.
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: It's not like if Trump murdered someone on an off
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: the record session, they all had to keep it quiet forever.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: I strangled him, but it was on background.
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: That's right. We have just sentenced a senior administration official
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: to life in prison for.
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: I mean, it is bizarre they didn't report it. It is...
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: the even more bizarre, although perhaps predictable, that none of
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: the involved outlets will comment on what happened, about whether
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: it happened, why they didn't report it, because there might.
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: Be a reason.
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: I can't for the life of me imagine what such
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: a reason would be, but come out and say it. Instead,
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: their silence about this reinforces all of the most negative
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: stereotypes of reporters. They're too cozy with Powerful people. They're
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: trading this for access. People are saying that Von Hilliard,
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: the reporter– people on Twitter have talked about like maybe
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: he's saving this for a book. I don't know that
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: to be the case. I don't know Von Hilliard. I'm
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: sure he's a good guy. And most reporters– like to
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: make news more than they like access or more than–
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: like the reason– the point of access is to make news.
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: It's not to get like canapes or something, right? So
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: it's like– Canapes.
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: Trump known for giving out canapes.
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: Because this would be– like this is a huge– this
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: is a big story, right? We know that over the
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: years that when Trump loses his temper and melts down,
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: it's a big story. And they didn't report it. They
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: won't say anything. And that is deeply damaging because it
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: erodes trust in the press, which is why the main
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: reason the media is in a state of absolute crisis
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: right now is because people don't trust them. All the
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: polling shows that trust in the media is at an
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: all-time low. And that's not just Republicans. It is a
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: broad-based erosion in trust in the media. And their behavior
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: in this incident and how they've handled it afterwards, it
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: helps explain why that is.
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: I have felt fairly good about my level of media
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: criticism recently. I've tried to tamp it down a little bit,
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: partly because, and you've written books about this, their interests
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: are not the interests of the Democratic Party, right? They
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: are for-profit corporations. who are looking for ratings. We cannot
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: expect them to save democracy, right? And then there's plenty
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: of good journalists who are doing a great job. But
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: I think the CNN story, this story, over the past
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: several weeks, I've been kind of thinking like, we are
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: just sort of walking into Donald Trump is back. He's
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: going to be the fucking nominee. We're going to be 70,000
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: votes away from him becoming president again. And everyone's just like, well,
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: I guess that's where we are. I guess he's going
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: to throw a phone. I guess we're not going to
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: say anything about it. We'll just put him in a
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: town hall on CNN, see what happens. He's going to
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: take questions. Talked about like he's a normal candidate. Analyzed
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: like he's a normal candidate. The guy fucking incited an insurrection,
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: tried to overturn the election. It's wild. And I don't
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: really know what to do about it, except to go
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: out there and fucking win and beat him. But it's
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: pretty troubling. It's pretty troubling, to say the least.
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: You've done the first thing you should do about it,
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: which is start a progressive media company to serve as
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: a counterbalance to this insanity. So, kudos to you. And,
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: you know, we've talked about this before, but all of
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: us have agency in this, right? Now we know about
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: the phone story. And are people going to be fucking
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: shocked to find out that Donald Trump is not a
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: man fully control of his faculties?
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: No.
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: But it is a news story and it is relevant.
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: And if the press doesn't tell it, we can tell it, right?
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: We can use all of our platforms to do it,
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: not just our podcast, but the people in our lives.
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: But you are exactly right. There's this real like fiddling
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: while Rome burns sort of attitude here. And I get it.
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: Like the press is in an absolute crisis. I mean,
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: in the last couple of weeks, Vice News, bankruptcy, BuzzFeed News, gone.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: Layoffs at CNN, cable ratings down. Washington Post, of all people,
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: struggling to make money. And losing subscribers, you know, the
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: New York Times succeeding, but on the back of Wordle
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: and recipes, right? Like that is how these things are happening.
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: And it's just, there is, we're in a crisis moment.
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: And this is, I think this election has the potential
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: to be the last best chance for the traditional political
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: media to regain the trust of some people, not all people,
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: that's never going to come back, but some people. And
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: if they fail that test, That could be absolutely it
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: for journalism, as we know it, the idea of a
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: fourth estate. And the early signs are not great. There
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: is some great reporting happening. There are some people who
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: are doing this very aggressively. I mean, just the fact
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: that Philip Bump, a Washington Post reporter, said that other
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: media outlets shouldn't air Trump live is like a step
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: in the right direction. The ways that CNN handled the
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: big lie, people like Jake Tapper and Abby Phillip and
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: Dana Bash, others after the 2020 election was a step
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: in the right direction. But There are a lot of
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: forces pushing in the wrong way. And the temptation, a
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: media business that's suffering financially with Donald Trump, a ratings
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: boon on the horizon, is a pretty dangerous combination for
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: the future of the industry.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: Part of this is just a basic challenge, which is
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: news is about what's new. And so much of the
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: worst of what Donald Trump has done, I mean, he
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: continues to do it every day. But so much of
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: this is reminding everyone in the country what he did
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: in the past and what he has said. Like you
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: could say, oh, yeah, he threw Von Hilliard's phone, whatever.
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: He also tried to grab the steering wheel of the
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: Secret Service vehicle to go to the Capitol and participate
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: in the insurrection. Much worse than tossing the phone. But
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: like that's just another incident down the memory hole because
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: we're just, you know. news is the news cycles are
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: now like five minutes long i mean if that and
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: the media is breaking down and twitter's breaking down and
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: so it's like no one it's it's the challenge i
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: think of this election is going to be continually reminding
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: people not just of like where we are and where
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: we could go but where we've been and what has
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: happened to us over the last four years in this
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: country especially with donald trump and i don't know you're
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: right i don't know if the media is equipped to
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: do that and i think one of the big challenges
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: is just some of it's not news and so you know,
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: the whole thing about, oh, don't normalize Trump. He's normalized.
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: It's normal. We've now all lived through the last several years.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: It happened. And it's a tough, it's a really tough challenge,
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: even if the media were at their best.
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: As institutions in this country lose trust in power, the media,
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: social media companies, business, political parties, more and more responsibility
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: for saving our democracy gets pushed on the voters.
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: This is not.
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: We've said this before. It's not going to be Fannie
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: Willis or Alvin Bragg or Bob Mueller or Jeff Zucker
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: or definitely not going to be Jeff Zucker of the CNN,
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: the New York Times, who are going to stop the
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: march of MAGA extremism. It'll be the voters in this
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: next election. That is it. That is the only option.
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: People who volunteer and organize and donate. That's not necessarily fair.
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: It's not fun to hear. It's tiring. It's exhausting. But
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: that's where we are. And it's either go do the
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: work or let this happen. So, all right, let's talk
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: about the latest debt ceiling drama. One crisis to another.
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: On May 9th, Joe Biden will be meeting at the
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: White House with the four top congressional leaders, Kevin McCarthy,
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: Hakeem Jeffries, Chuck Schumer, and Mitch McConnell. The president and
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: Democrats are holding strong to their principle of not negotiating
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: with hostage takers, but they're reportedly looking at three different
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: options for how to avoid default. One, a discharge petition. Two,
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: declaring the debt limit unconstitutional under the 14th Amendment. And three,
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: a two-track strategy where Biden and McCarthy cut a deal
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: on the budget that's separate from a debt ceiling increase.
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: Let's explain each of these scenarios and then talk about
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: the pros and cons of each and the likelihood of each.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: Let's start with the discharge petition. How does it work?
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: A discharge petition is a method available to the majority
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: of House members to force the Speaker to hold a
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: vote on a bill. Now, that requires 218 members, a
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: majority of the House, to sign the petition. And one
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: of the reasons why people were very skeptical a discharge
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: petition could be used to avoid default was it is
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: a very time-consuming and logistics-heavy process. The bill has to
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: be on the calendar for 30 days. There has to
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: be a rule. Then you have to get the signatures,
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: and there's the time after the signatures. But for all
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: the people who say, I think often and fairly, the
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: Democrats don't know what they're doing, they handled this brilliantly.
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: Last month, more than a month ago, they had Marc Desaulniers,
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: who is a very good but relatively anonymous congressman, introduce
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: a bill called the Break the Gridlock Act. Just filed it.
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: No one paid attention. It sat there for 30 days.
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: And now we're going to be able to start getting
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: signatures on this petition. On May 16th, it will become ripe.
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: And if you assume that the date is early June,
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: this is not easy to do. There are challenges, which
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: we'll talk about. But the Democrats solved the logistics problem
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: by thinking ahead and being very smart and strategic about it.
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: It's good that it's a shell of a bill, too.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: And here's why. So you need a majority to sign
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: on to the bill. in order to discharge the petition
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: and hold a vote, which means that Democrats would need
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: a couple of House Republicans.
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: Five.
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: Right now, five. Five House Republicans. Right now, even the
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: House Republicans most likely to say they would side with
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: the Democrats on this, like Don Bacon of Nebraska, right,
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: one of the more moderate Republicans, has said no clean
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: debt ceiling increase still. Like, they're still against that. But
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: you could imagine... some kind of negotiation between Democrats and
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: some of the more moderate Republicans that if we get
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: to the break glass moment, then the Republicans sign. Like
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: if Kevin McCarthy and Biden talks collapse, if no one
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: can come to an agreement and we're heading towards the disaster,
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: you could imagine some of these Republicans signing on with
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: Democrats for maybe some other fig leaf negotiation. And then
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: you put that all on the shell of a bill
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: because the actual bill hasn't been written yet. And then
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: you're off to the races. So it's a possible one. That's, again,
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: the biggest challenge left. They have solved the logistics challenge.
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: The biggest challenge left is they don't have five Republicans
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: yet on this bill.
• 30:32
  Speaker 4: All right.
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: What about Biden declaring the debt limit is unconstitutional under
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: the 14th Amendment? This is part of the 14th Amendment.
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: Here's what it says. The validity of the public debt
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: of the United States authorized by law, including debts incurred
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. This is what
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: the clause reads. The 14th Amendment is obviously the amendment
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: after the Civil War that grants citizenship to everyone in
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: the country. It's seen as a civil rights amendment, obviously,
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: but it also included this provision about public debt because
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: they wanted to protect the public debt held by the
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: federal government and prohibit the payment of debt held by
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: the Confederate states should they regain power in the Congress again.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: So it was done because of that, but the language
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: is there. And so a lot of legal scholars have said, well,
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: If the debt shall not be questioned, then the debt
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: limit is unconstitutional. So what do you think about that play?
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: Biden just goes out there and says the debt limit
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: is unconstitutional.
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: Here's the problem with this approach. I think it is
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: at best a legal jump ball. You can find legal
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: scholars who say it shows the debt limit is unconstitutional.
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: You can say that it absolutely does not. And so
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: that means it will head to the courts. And do
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: we really want to put the fate of the global
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: economy in the hands of these courts in a process
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: that ends in the Supreme Court? And even if you
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: get the right ruling in the beginning– so let's say
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: we get to the end. And I guess this is
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: maybe how this could play out. If there is no solution,
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: we cross X date. X date is the date in
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: which we have no more money to pay any more bills.
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: And the United States just– Janet Yellen, the president, just
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: say we're going to keep paying the bills because of
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: the 14th Amendment. And so therefore, that could stave off
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: potential collapse for a few days. And people, veterans, Social
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: Security recipients, others could continue to get– those chests could
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: continue to flow. And that would prevent like real individual
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: harm to people. But what could happen very shortly after
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: that is someone files a suit. Court stays it, says
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: you can't do it, and now we're in crisis. Or
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: you have competing rulings and it goes right to the
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: Supreme Court. And how do the markets respond to that
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: level of uncertainty– Both our markets and across the world.
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: Not well.
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's my guess.
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: Even while you're waiting for the Supreme Court to decide,
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: the markets go crazy because the cost of borrowing suddenly
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: skyrockets because you don't want to issue– if you're going
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: to issue debt or buy debt and then the court
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: later decides that that debt actually shall be questioned, then
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: they're going to– it's going to increase the cost of
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: borrowing and the markets will go crazy.
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and not just our markets. All across the entire
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: world because U.S. debt is– up until recently, it's been
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: seen as the safest financial instrument in the world. And
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: so if that is all of a sudden in the
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: hands of Harlan Crowe's buddy, how are they going to
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: respond to that? And so this is a break glass
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: solution that may not really be a solution, but a
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: lot of people are just like, do this and it's
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: all over. Or we've talked about this before, print the
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: trillion dollar coin and it's all over. And that's not
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: the case because there is a process here to keep
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: the markets in line and the courts will have a
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: lot to say about it.
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: I will say I saw one suggestion that was interesting
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: to me, which is instead of coming out and saying
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: the 14th Amendment means the debt limit is unconstitutional once
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: we hit the date, you actually do it like next week.
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: And then the court and then the case goes to
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: the court while there is still time to exercise other options.
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: And so the markets don't go necessarily as crazy because
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: we have the time to wait for the court to
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: decide before we hit X date.
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: I am really out of my depth here, but isn't
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: there a question of standing there? Because don't you have
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: to show injury to get before the court?
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you could sue Janet Yellen.
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: Let's punt this up to the real sports people.
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: District scrutiny?
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: District scrutiny, yeah. All right. You can hear us, district
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: scrutiny co-hosts. Please let us know. Did we consider this
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: in 2011 in the White House? What did Geithner say
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: about this? What did the lawyers say about this?
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: I mean, I feel like I might be stepping on, um,
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: volume two of promised land.
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: I think you got time.
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: There, there was a, as I recall it, and if
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: I'm trying to struggle to remember 2020, a dark year,
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: try to imagine remembering 2011, a quite day, not as
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: dark as 2020, but not a fun year for us
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: to say the least. Um, There was a sense that
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: beyond the legal arguments that if President Obama had done
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: either the trillion dollar coin or the 14th Amendment, he
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: would be opening himself up to impeachment. And there was
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: a sense that there would be– it would not– we
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: were operating in a world of different norms back then.
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: And I don't know what the lawyers thought, but this
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: was never a live option that was really being seriously considered,
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: if I recall correctly.
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, impeachment would be bad. They're looking for an excuse anyway.
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: What do you think about the two-track strategy idea?
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: I heard you guys talking about this on Tuesday. The
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: two-track strategy is really just kicking the can down the road.
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: Because ultimately, the reason.
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: You can't... It's a very Congress thing to do.
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: Which is great. Let's buy more time, buy more time,
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: buy more time if there's a way to do that.
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: And that could be something that comes out of this
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: is to try to align... the debt limit and the
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: budget and the government funding bills. The problem with that
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: for Democrats is now you're just going to have this
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: negotiation again, but you've handed the leverage on government funding
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: to the Republicans because you're once again doing it under
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: the ticking clock of default. This is the situation Obama
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: found himself in in 2013. People forget this. The government
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: was actually shut down during the debt limit crisis because
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: the two were aligned. Because they had actually, after the
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: 2011 crisis, started to align them to make it easier
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: to lift the debt limit. And then the Republicans found
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: a reason not to do that again. And so yes,
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: you would have, you'd have another three months to possibly
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: come up with a solution, but it's a pretty narrow
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: menu and all of the options we've been talking about
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: it for months and all of the options suck for
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: someone that either Democrats follow something they don't want, McCarthy
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: loses his job, something goes to the courts. And so
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: let's move the crisis further along and hope that something changes,
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: but I don't suspect that a lot will change.
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: Here's the thing though. Isn't, the Biden administration and Democrats
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: going to have to negotiate? Forget about the debt. Say
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: there was no debt ceiling crisis. They're going to have
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: to negotiate over the budget and government funding eventually. And
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: there could be a shutdown eventually. And they'll have to
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: get out of the shutdown eventually. And the only way
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: to get out of the shutdown is to make some
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: kind of deal about the budget that enough Republicans can
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: live with so that it passes the House.
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: That is true.
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: At some point, they're going to have to negotiate over
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: the budget.
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: The whole point of the not negotiating stance is you
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: do not want to have the conversation where your opponent
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: has a button to push to blow up the economy
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: if you don't come to agreement on their terms.
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: Right. But they could have a button to push on
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: the government shutdown, which is not as serious as breaching
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: the debt limit, but still something that you're going to
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: have to get out of. Right.
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: But that's been true every October 1 since the beginning
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: of the appropriations process. And we have the government to
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: shut down before we have a process for doing it.
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: We know, the federal government knows how to manage that
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: process to minimize disruptions as much as possible. It's still
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: very painful for a lot of people. There's a history
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: of ensuring that federal workers get paid back afterwards. There's
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: a way to prioritize the people who or most of
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: all in one situation, no such processes or experience exists
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: for default.
• 38:31
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: I'm just saying this because I could see a scenario
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: where the Biden folks and the Democrats were like, look,
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: we negotiated a deal around the budget so we could
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: avoid a shutdown. And that was separate from this other
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: negotiation we had where we said, all right, lift the
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: debt ceiling for a year. And we kept it separate.
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: Like we said, great. Now, I guess that only works
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: if there's an agreement.
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: Yes, that is probably likely how this ends, if it
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: ends in something other than global financial collapse. But the
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: timing of that is tricky, and there's a lot of
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: pitfalls to it. And if you have months, maybe you
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: can figure it out without approaching X date. But if
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: you end up approaching the X date, you're right back
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: where you are right now.
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: We are getting close, people. We are getting close. There
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: are not that many days on the congressional calendar between
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: now and X date, which people think people, meaning the
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: Treasury Secretary, thinks could come in early June, as early
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: as June 1st. So. buckle up, buckle up. When we
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: come back, Chasten Buttigieg stops by the studio to talk
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: about his new book with Lovett.
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: Joining us today, he is a teacher, the first gentleman
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: of transportation, and the author of the book, I Have
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: Something to Tell You, Chastin Buttigieg. Welcome to the pod.
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: Thanks.
• 39:56
  Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: So I feel like we're in the middle of a
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: re-examination right now for kids that were born in the
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: 80s in this period of growing acceptance, but not acceptance.
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: And I think this book is about what it means
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: to grapple with being gay when there were in some
• 40:11
  Speaker 3: ways sort of bromides of tolerance, but A deeper way
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: in which being gay was still something to be afraid
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: of or afraid you were. The kids today, they have
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: no idea what it was like. Yeah. Well, that was
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: one of the things that I had to keep thinking
• 40:25
  Speaker 3: about while I was writing it. It's like, will the
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: youths get this? Like, will it mean anything?
• 40:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: Will this kind of story matter?
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: Will it resonate?
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: Remember when Richard Hatch won Survivor, that first, spoiler alert,
• 40:36
  Speaker 3: season one of Survivor from the year 1999. Did you
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: watch Survivor in 1999 when Richard Hatch won? I think so.
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: My parents were big Survivor fans. I'm sure I watched it.
• 40:44
  Speaker 3: Do you think it was good or bad that a
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: nudist gay man won Survivor and then didn't pay taxes? Okay, well,
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: I don't know anything about that, so I don't know that.
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: So he won Survivor. He was out. He was a
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: real snake. He was the first person to really crack
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: that you could make alliances and stuff. He was really
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: ahead of the curve. It's why he won the first season.
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: And he was gay and it was a big deal,
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: but he was also a nudist and then he didn't
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: pay taxes on the money and he got in trouble.
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: I think he may have gone to jail. Didn't he
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: go to jail? We think Richard Hatch may have gone
• 41:14
  Speaker 3: to jail for not paying taxes. I mean, you should
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: pay your taxes. So I wonder, it's like, you know,
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: the level of exposure you get from Richard Hatch. Was
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: he out on Survivor? Yes, he was out on Survivor.
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: It was a huge deal. It's 1999. Wow. And he's unapologetic,
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: but he's also a nudist and making people a little
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: bit uncomfortable by being naked all the time.
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: Huh.
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: But gay people are complicated. Well, yeah, I guess those
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: are two completely different things. And that's the most important thing.
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: But. To your point in the book about not having
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: gay role models, when there aren't that many out gay people,
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: all of a sudden Richard Hatch is a representative of
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: the gay community. There aren't a lot of other people
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: who are out on television. Yeah, I could see. And
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: he's a gay nude who doesn't pay his taxes. Yeah,
• 41:49
  Speaker 3: I could see how people would quickly label someone like that.
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: The same thing like Will and Grace.
• 41:54
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: You know, I love Will and Grace, but Will and
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: Grace was so problematic for me because if I laughed
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: too much, I was afraid that my family would think
• 42:03
  Speaker 3: I liked it a little bit too much and there
• 42:04
  Speaker 3: might be a reason behind that. But then, of course,
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: Will and Grace only showed gay men portrayed in certain ways.
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: There's only certain types of gay men that you could be.
• 42:16
  Speaker 3: Or we had to be the butt of the joke
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: to make everybody else comfortable.
• 42:21
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: Jack is fun and loving life. And then Will kind
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: of is lonely and single and quite unhappy a lot
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: of the time. But successful. He's a professional. So he's
• 42:32
  Speaker 3: accepted because he's this suit-wearing... successful man who puts, you know,
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: career above love. And I think that was a, whatever,
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: that's a soapbox that we probably don't have time for today.
• 42:45
  Speaker 3: Do you think that the gay community was hurt by
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: the number of turtlenecks people were wearing on those shows?
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: Because if you have a short neck, turtlenecks aren't for you.
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: Turtlenecks aren't for me. Are you just upset because you
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: can't wear a turtleneck? I am upset that I can't
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: wear a turtleneck. I can't wear a turtleneck either. You
• 42:59
  Speaker 3: can't wear a turtleneck? Are you part of the short-necked community?
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: Maybe that's what they would tell me at the department store.
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: But I feel like everyone rocks this suit turtleneck look.
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: I can't do it. I can't do it at all.
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: Do you feel that your head looks too low? I
• 43:11
  Speaker 3: just feel like I look funky. Why do you think
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: that is? Is it because you have a short neck?
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: Should we talk about it? I think it's because I
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: have a really short neck. I think I have a
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: really short neck. And I think the turtlenecks on those
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: shows really kind of hurt me. I'm really sorry about that.
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: Thanks for saying that. All of the things going on
• 43:27
  Speaker 3: in the 80s and 90s. I really don't like the turtlenecks.
• 43:32
  Speaker 3: So who were, you know, you talked about not having
• 43:34
  Speaker 3: a lot of gay role models in the book. Who
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: stood out to you growing up? Like, who did you
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: look to? Well, I didn't really have that many role models.
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: You know, there was Will and Grace. And of course,
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: at this time, I also didn't know that some of
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: these celebrities that I had grown up with were gay.
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: Because that was also something that wasn't talked about. Who
• 43:53
  Speaker 3: was in the closet then? They all were. Yeah, exactly.
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: Or some of them still have to be. But Ellen
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: was huge because my mom loved Ellen. And that to
• 44:05
  Speaker 3: me was like a little sliver of hope. Like maybe,
• 44:08
  Speaker 3: you know, she's a successful person. She makes my mom laugh.
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: They're okay with that. And we don't really talk about
• 44:16
  Speaker 3: the lesbian thing. It's funny. I was going to ask
• 44:20
  Speaker 3: you about Ellen, too, because I didn't realize how much
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: Ellen meant to me until Ellen was getting the Presidential
• 44:27
  Speaker 3: Medal of Freedom from President Obama. And I realized in
• 44:31
  Speaker 3: watching her get that medal that I went through this
• 44:33
  Speaker 3: whole cycle of finding out Ellen was going to come out,
• 44:37
  Speaker 3: watching it, watching the whole news cycle, being incredibly riveted
• 44:41
  Speaker 3: and invested in it, and never saying it out loud.
• 44:44
  Speaker 3: Because it wasn't for another... couple of years that I
• 44:47
  Speaker 3: ended up coming out. And I, it wasn't until I
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: saw Ellen accepting that medal of freedom that I'd never
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: even spoken out loud about how, how much that had
• 44:56
  Speaker 3: meant to me at the time. Did you talk about
• 44:58
  Speaker 3: it or was it just an entirely internal experience? Talk
• 45:02
  Speaker 3: about Ellen?
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: Like, yeah.
• 45:03
  Speaker 3: In watching Ellen come out, you didn't say a word
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: about it. It was just something that you experienced completely privately.
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 45:08
  Speaker 3: So I didn't, you know, I didn't come out until
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: I was 18. Um, you know, these are, conversations I've
• 45:14
  Speaker 3: had with my family after the fact. And there are
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: so many signs along the way, right? Like you definitely
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: should have known. And it's because we didn't talk about them.
• 45:20
  Speaker 3: Like we didn't talk about this huge moment, you know,
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: in pop culture when Ellen came out until much later.
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: And that was really emotional for me too, watching her
• 45:30
  Speaker 3: get that medal. Because I think some people may assume
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: that we've progressed so rapidly. And then when you really
• 45:38
  Speaker 3: take a like the last 34 years of my life,
• 45:44
  Speaker 3: like what has happened, like being born at the tail
• 45:47
  Speaker 3: end of the AIDS epidemic to today where like understanding
• 45:52
  Speaker 3: that I'm in Washington with a partner who serves, you know,
• 45:56
  Speaker 3: and that would not have been the reality 30 years ago,
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: like watching Ellen get that medal in 20 years and
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: understanding that like she lost everything when she came out, when,
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: when her character came out, when she came out and that,
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: So much has happened in that very short period of time.
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: But I feel like our memories don't keep up with
• 46:15
  Speaker 3: that timeline, understanding that that timeline is actually very, very short. Yeah,
• 46:22
  Speaker 3: it is amazing. And I think one thing that I
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: think about when it comes to the amount of change
• 46:27
  Speaker 3: we've had is even as there was this conversation around
• 46:32
  Speaker 3: shifting norms, around accepting difference on sexual orientation, there wasn't
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: a conversation about masculinity there. at all. And you talk
• 46:39
  Speaker 3: about this a little bit in the book about like
• 46:40
  Speaker 3: not wanting to play football, but wanting to go fishing,
• 46:42
  Speaker 3: not feeling totally like, like you're one of the boys. Um,
• 46:46
  Speaker 3: and I do wonder like that, that, that does seem
• 46:50
  Speaker 3: to be changing now, but you talk a little bit
• 46:51
  Speaker 3: about that, like the kind of your relationship to just
• 46:55
  Speaker 3: forget sexual orientation, just masculinity and being a, you know.
• 46:59
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah.
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: I mean, masculinity had to look a very certain way.
• 47:03
  Speaker 3: You know, the circles that I was growing up in,
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: in church and 4-H and you know, our high school
• 47:11
  Speaker 3: was like the school where people would occasionally drive their
• 47:14
  Speaker 3: snowmobiles to school, like their tractors, right? Or, you know,
• 47:19
  Speaker 3: people who clung to like very certain idols of manhood
• 47:24
  Speaker 3: or masculinity. And I just didn't see a space for me.
• 47:29
  Speaker 3: And I, sometimes I feel like I have to extend
• 47:31
  Speaker 3: them like a, a shred of pity too, because I
• 47:35
  Speaker 3: feel like we're all just trying to blend in and
• 47:37
  Speaker 3: like the, I didn't really have a group to get
• 47:39
  Speaker 3: caught up in. And some of them just got caught
• 47:40
  Speaker 3: up in that.
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: Right. Yeah.
• 47:43
  Speaker 3: It's like performance. I wonder, like, I guess I'd be
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: interested to hear you talk a little bit about like
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: what you want the younger generation to take away from.
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 47:57
  Speaker 3: This experience of growing up at a time when You
• 48:01
  Speaker 3: really were expected to conform. You felt that pressure every day. Yeah.
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: I mean, I certainly wrote the book from my experience.
• 48:11
  Speaker 3: So it was the experience of a gay person conforming
• 48:15
  Speaker 3: and surviving, coming out and now reflecting back on that.
• 48:21
  Speaker 3: But I think the book is for any young person
• 48:23
  Speaker 3: who's ever felt like a fish out of water. or
• 48:26
  Speaker 3: a person who has felt like they're forced to conform.
• 48:29
  Speaker 3: And I also think it'll be a great resource for
• 48:31
  Speaker 3: teachers and parents to understand what young people are going through,
• 48:34
  Speaker 3: what they could be going through, and you might be
• 48:38
  Speaker 3: unaware of that. And also the pain and the hurt
• 48:42
  Speaker 3: that is inflicted upon young people by ignorance and the
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: good that can come from having these conversations and making
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: space for everyone. So I have some... silly questions for
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: you but before we get there those weren't the silly
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: questions no just buckle up i thought the turtleneck was
• 49:02
  Speaker 3: a silly that was it that was more of a
• 49:04
  Speaker 3: side i think there's an aside that came to me
• 49:06
  Speaker 3: in the moment uh you know you go through your
• 49:09
  Speaker 3: first round of coming out you know you had a
• 49:11
  Speaker 3: bush bumper sticker on your car at some point is
• 49:12
  Speaker 3: that right yeah that came off yeah where you got
• 49:16
  Speaker 3: a new different car but you don't think that way
• 49:18
  Speaker 3: anymore obviously but you you you kind of go through
• 49:20
  Speaker 3: that first round um and um you kind of i
• 49:26
  Speaker 3: don't know i know for me i think it's true
• 49:27
  Speaker 3: for a lot of people when they first come out
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: they go through their kind of zealot of the convert
• 49:33
  Speaker 3: kind of phase right at the beginning but for me
• 49:36
  Speaker 3: it's taken me till uh till 40 An age that
• 49:40
  Speaker 3: I currently am to realize how much internalized homophobia and
• 49:45
  Speaker 3: more than that like internalized Performance of masculinity I carry
• 49:49
  Speaker 3: around even to this day Even in moments where I'm
• 49:52
  Speaker 3: using a voice that isn't as effeminate as I might
• 49:55
  Speaker 3: otherwise have used our podcast voices This is my I mean,
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: I don't know. I mean, this is our podcast voice,
• 50:01
  Speaker 3: but I don't know I don't know if is this
• 50:03
  Speaker 3: as gay as my voice could be maybe but it
• 50:05
  Speaker 3: could be gayer and I totally, I totally know what
• 50:09
  Speaker 3: you're saying.
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: I drop into my podcast voice sometimes. But see, even
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: as you say it, your podcast voice is a straighter voice.
• 50:17
  Speaker 3: It's a more deeper voice. And even when I'm asking
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: a serious, I'm getting sillier now, my voice is getting
• 50:22
  Speaker 3: bigger and gayer. But when I ask a question about
• 50:25
  Speaker 3: something important, my voice becomes like this. I don't know
• 50:28
  Speaker 3: that that's natural. I think that might be a performance.
• 50:31
  Speaker 3: I'm wondering if you feel that, that even now you're
• 50:34
  Speaker 3: writing this book about sort of what it means to
• 50:37
  Speaker 3: try to figure out how to be yourself. But even now,
• 50:40
  Speaker 3: don't you, do you feel right now that you can
• 50:42
  Speaker 3: ever kind of be outside of the bounds you set
• 50:46
  Speaker 3: when you were a kid, when you were living by
• 50:48
  Speaker 3: these fears? Is that the gayest your voice can be?
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: Oh, no.
• 50:53
  Speaker 3: It can be gayer. You should see me on karaoke night. See,
• 50:55
  Speaker 3: it can be gayer. We can all be gayer. We
• 50:57
  Speaker 3: can use gayer voices. I'm gonna use a gayer voice
• 51:01
  Speaker 3: for the rest of this episode. I think we're constantly
• 51:04
  Speaker 3: coming to terms with who we thought we had to
• 51:06
  Speaker 3: be when we were younger, who we thought we could
• 51:08
  Speaker 3: be when we came out. And then the space in
• 51:12
  Speaker 3: between where you're like still policing yourself. Yeah. Are you
• 51:16
  Speaker 3: still doing that? You're still policing yourself? All the time. Well,
• 51:18
  Speaker 3: also because of, you know, where I'm at in life.
• 51:21
  Speaker 3: And I know that so many people are watching everything
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: that I do and everything that my family does. And I'm,
• 51:28
  Speaker 3: you know... Pairing that with the absolute destruction of morality
• 51:34
  Speaker 3: on the other side of the aisle right now.
• 51:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 51:36
  Speaker 3: And understanding that how they will weaponize my family, my children,
• 51:42
  Speaker 3: and my performance of masculinity or identity. I'm conscious of
• 51:46
  Speaker 3: that more than I would like to admit because that's
• 51:53
  Speaker 3: a big deal. I certainly never thought that I would
• 51:58
  Speaker 3: be in this chair one day. you know, I never
• 52:01
  Speaker 3: thought that my family would be who we are today. Um,
• 52:06
  Speaker 3: just this weekend, uh, Pete and I were pushing the
• 52:09
  Speaker 3: stroller and there was like these corner preachers in our neighborhood.
• 52:13
  Speaker 3: And we walked by and like, we had just gone
• 52:17
  Speaker 3: to a little indie bookstore celebrating like indie bookstore Saturday.
• 52:20
  Speaker 3: And we like sat down with the kids and like
• 52:23
  Speaker 3: picked out some books and like did drag brunch coloring sheets.
• 52:26
  Speaker 3: No drag brunch. Okay. Tara wasn't performing on Saturday. Uh,
• 52:30
  Speaker 3: but you know, you're having a great morning, like celebrating
• 52:35
  Speaker 3: our neighborhood and going to this little store. And, and
• 52:37
  Speaker 3: then we're just like pushing the stroller. We're going to
• 52:39
  Speaker 3: go to another indie bookstore. And, uh, these corner preachers
• 52:43
  Speaker 3: are like, look at these homosexuals. Like those aren't their kids.
• 52:48
  Speaker 3: And they're just like yelling in their microphones at us.
• 52:50
  Speaker 3: And then I'm in my head, like, what do I
• 52:53
  Speaker 3: want to say as a parent? What do I want
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: to say as a human? And what do I want
• 52:55
  Speaker 3: to say as a gay man?
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: You know?
• 52:58
  Speaker 3: And, And then of course, you know, I'm like, I
• 53:03
  Speaker 3: don't say anything because I don't want to give this
• 53:04
  Speaker 3: person a platform. And I don't want to, I don't
• 53:06
  Speaker 3: want this person to know that I care about what
• 53:08
  Speaker 3: they have to think, you know, but it just, sometimes
• 53:14
  Speaker 3: it just comes not creeping in, but crashing in. But
• 53:17
  Speaker 3: so that's when it's crashing in. But what about the
• 53:19
  Speaker 3: times when it's not so clear? Like you, you were
• 53:21
  Speaker 3: hinting at it a little bit. I'm actually genuinely curious
• 53:24
  Speaker 3: about like moments when you feel this sort of creeping heteronormativity,
• 53:29
  Speaker 3: this desire to make sure that you're, that you're being a,
• 53:32
  Speaker 3: not just being good parents, not just being a good spouse,
• 53:38
  Speaker 3: but doing it in a way that is good for
• 53:41
  Speaker 3: the movement that helps the cause amongst people that might
• 53:44
  Speaker 3: not be totally comfortable.
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 53:46
  Speaker 3: What does that look like?
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 53:48
  Speaker 3: That one's really confusing to me because I remember, like,
• 53:53
  Speaker 3: I remember being on the cover of time magazine, which
• 53:55
  Speaker 3: was like, life shock and then like the conversation around
• 54:01
  Speaker 3: it was like oh they're just performing heteronormativity like heteronormativity
• 54:06
  Speaker 3: and like to me I was like I'm just I
• 54:10
  Speaker 3: just have my armor on my partner you know posing
• 54:12
  Speaker 3: for this photo like I'm not trying to perform anything
• 54:14
  Speaker 3: it's just who I am same thing with like the
• 54:17
  Speaker 3: kids like I've always wanted kids I've always wanted to
• 54:19
  Speaker 3: be a dad in fact I sort of knew I
• 54:21
  Speaker 3: wanted to be a dad more than I you know
• 54:23
  Speaker 3: knew I wanted to be a teacher or a writer
• 54:25
  Speaker 3: and It's just something I've always wanted. And now I
• 54:29
  Speaker 3: have this great family and a loving spouse and two
• 54:32
  Speaker 3: really cool kids. And I never get around to sending
• 54:35
  Speaker 3: the Christmas cards, but you know, if I did, they'd
• 54:36
  Speaker 3: probably be cute, but it's not like some, that's not
• 54:40
  Speaker 3: something I feel like I'm performing, but I understand why
• 54:43
  Speaker 3: people assume that, but also like, can't, can't queer people
• 54:48
  Speaker 3: just be families too? Like what's heteronormative about it? Can't
• 54:51
  Speaker 3: we just also just want to raise a family and
• 54:54
  Speaker 3: be a family?
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: Right, right.
• 54:56
  Speaker 3: But it is, there's, I do sometimes think, you talked
• 55:00
  Speaker 3: about this, the path that like, I sometimes, you and Pete,
• 55:05
  Speaker 3: especially Pete gets, you know, certainly gay enough to be
• 55:13
  Speaker 3: despised on Fox News and to be held out an
• 55:15
  Speaker 3: example and to be like, you know, to be used
• 55:18
  Speaker 3: as a cudgel during, a natural disaster or a train
• 55:23
  Speaker 3: derailment in a way that no previous secretary of transportation
• 55:26
  Speaker 3: would ever be used. You're having kids being held up,
• 55:29
  Speaker 3: paternity leave or parental leave being treated as some horrible
• 55:33
  Speaker 3: thing to take, even though everybody takes it. So draws
• 55:37
  Speaker 3: that acrimony. And yet, because there's on the other side,
• 55:43
  Speaker 3: the sense that what you're doing is criticized as being
• 55:46
  Speaker 3: not gay enough, right? That he's not Met Gala gay,
• 55:49
  Speaker 3: he's McKinsey gay. And that that's something that means there's no,
• 55:53
  Speaker 3: there's not the same level of, well, it's not as
• 55:55
  Speaker 3: fun or it's not as exciting to us anymore. It's, it's, it's,
• 55:59
  Speaker 3: it doesn't get the same level of kind of love
• 56:02
  Speaker 3: from the left either. Do you find that, you know,
• 56:04
  Speaker 3: does that, does that ring true to you? I certainly
• 56:08
  Speaker 3: am on social media, so, you know, yeah, I, but I,
• 56:13
  Speaker 3: I also get it. Like, I get wanting to see
• 56:18
  Speaker 3: progress happen faster. And I especially understand from when I'm
• 56:21
  Speaker 3: talking to young people who get really frustrated about the
• 56:26
  Speaker 3: slowness of progress in our country where they might see
• 56:28
  Speaker 3: someone like me come in and sit across from them
• 56:30
  Speaker 3: and be like, you don't know what my life is like.
• 56:33
  Speaker 3: You don't know what it's like. That's just why I
• 56:36
  Speaker 3: try to do as much listening as I can and growing.
• 56:38
  Speaker 3: I think it's important that we all commit to constantly
• 56:42
  Speaker 3: growing and listening and which I don't think the other
• 56:44
  Speaker 3: side of the aisle gets, like with this stuff, like
• 56:46
  Speaker 3: with masculinity, the culture wars, especially trans Americans, rather than
• 56:51
  Speaker 3: like pause and listen to the wider American medical community,
• 56:57
  Speaker 3: advocacy groups, they've just like built up a wall around them, right?
• 57:00
  Speaker 3: Like we're clinging to like what we know. We don't
• 57:03
  Speaker 3: want to do anything different. And I see it differently.
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 57:08
  Speaker 3: Before we let you go, we're doing rapid fire.
• 57:10
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 57:10
  Speaker 3: All right. Let's get into it. Are you going to
• 57:13
  Speaker 3: the Aris tour? The what? The Aris tour. Taylor Swift. No,
• 57:16
  Speaker 3: I couldn't get tickets. Favorite Taylor Swift song?
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: Oh.
• 57:21
  Speaker 3: And you can get tickets. Come on, he can get tickets.
• 57:25
  Speaker 3: Pull some strings, huh? I saw a video this morning.
• 57:27
  Speaker 3: It was like a dad dancing with his daughter at
• 57:28
  Speaker 3: a Taylor Swift concert. And there are all these empty
• 57:31
  Speaker 3: chairs next to them. I was like, excuse me.
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: Scoppers.
• 57:34
  Speaker 3: Where was this and when was this?
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 57:35
  Speaker 3: Favorite Taylor Swift song. Mine's Exile. I love that song, Exile.
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: Really? Yeah.
• 57:40
  Speaker 3: I like the moody stuff. I like poignancy. I like Mean,
• 57:42
  Speaker 3: All Too Well. All Too Well is so great. That
• 57:44
  Speaker 3: was a good breakup song for me too. What's the
• 57:46
  Speaker 3: worst gift Pete has ever given you?
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: Oh.
• 57:50
  Speaker 3: He actually didn't. I dropped so many hints that I
• 57:53
  Speaker 3: thought it would be really cute to give each other
• 57:54
  Speaker 3: a gift on our wedding day. So many hints. I
• 57:57
  Speaker 3: really like this tradition that I've heard from people. So
• 58:00
  Speaker 3: I got him cufflinks and I like had a friend
• 58:02
  Speaker 3: like sneak into his, you know, room the day of
• 58:04
  Speaker 3: the wedding and like leave the car and the cufflinks.
• 58:06
  Speaker 3: It's thoughtful.
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And nothing. Nothing.
• 58:10
  Speaker 3: And I will never, ever let him forget it. What
• 58:13
  Speaker 3: is the gayest thing? You won't let him forget it.
• 58:16
  Speaker 3: What is the gayest thing you and Pete watch on TV?
• 58:21
  Speaker 3: We don't watch a lot of TV, but I guess
• 58:22
  Speaker 3: the White Lotus, big Jennifer Coolidge fan. Okay, we'll count it.
• 58:26
  Speaker 3: We'll count it. You both watch White Lotus together?
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 58:30
  Speaker 3: I mean, busy guy. We don't watch a lot of TV.
• 58:33
  Speaker 3: Mostly books, huh? We don't watch books on the TV.
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: We usually read them. It's all right.
• 58:38
  Speaker 3: What's one gay value you hope to impart to your children?
• 58:41
  Speaker 3: A gay value? Yeah, a gay value. Don't wear white
• 58:45
  Speaker 3: after Labor Day. Don't mix blue and navy. Love each other.
• 58:49
  Speaker 3: I don't know. You tell me. It could mean anything
• 58:50
  Speaker 3: you want it to mean. I don't know. I'm just
• 58:51
  Speaker 3: trying to raise them to be kind, inclusive people. But
• 58:54
  Speaker 3: I guess they do like their fair share of show
• 58:57
  Speaker 3: tunes right now.
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 58:58
  Speaker 3: We do show tunes at breakfast. So like no Andrew
• 59:00
  Speaker 3: Lloyd Webber. That could be like a rule. Why are
• 59:03
  Speaker 3: gay guys such bad drivers?
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: Are they?
• 59:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. You're not aware of that? Is this a
• 59:08
  Speaker 3: stigma I don't know about? You know what I'm talking about.
• 59:10
  Speaker 3: you know what i'm talking about okay well uh why
• 59:14
  Speaker 3: why don't you answer the question i don't know i
• 59:16
  Speaker 3: actually don't know why i'm such a bad driver if
• 59:18
  Speaker 3: i knew i'd be a little bit better at it
• 59:20
  Speaker 3: huh i think i'm a great driver but everyone thinks
• 59:22
  Speaker 3: they're a great driver that's the whole problem i got
• 59:24
  Speaker 3: two kids in the back of my minivan i know
• 59:26
  Speaker 3: i'm a good minivan Oh, it's a minivan. It's a
• 59:28
  Speaker 3: plug-in hybrid minivan. A plug-in hybrid minivan. You know it is.
• 59:32
  Speaker 3: I don't know. I think that's a hate crime. What
• 59:34
  Speaker 3: as a kid did you see on TV that you
• 59:37
  Speaker 3: completely loved but knew on some level you shouldn't because
• 59:39
  Speaker 3: it wasn't what boys loved? Mine is when Miss Piggy
• 59:42
  Speaker 3: and Joan Rivers go crazy with the makeup in Muppets
• 59:44
  Speaker 3: Take Manhattan. Remember that? Do you remember that? I feel
• 59:46
  Speaker 3: like you got way too much time to prepare for this.
• 59:49
  Speaker 3: I thought it was five seconds before this interview. Olivia
• 59:51
  Speaker 3: can attest. Muppets Take Manhattan. Miss Piggy, she's disappointed in
• 59:55
  Speaker 3: her Kermie. She comes back all despondent. Joan Rivers gives
• 59:58
  Speaker 3: her a makeover. They lose it. They get fired from
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 3: the department store. Do you remember that?
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: No.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 3: Are you gay or not?
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 3: Well, you tell all these great stories. Do you understand
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 3: how closeted and dramatic my childhood was? I was probably
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 3: mucking a barn. And you were cleaning the fish. You
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 3: were doing the fish things. And goats, were there goats?
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 3: What happens? Were you cleaning? I'm not from, look, Michigan.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 3: I know where it is. Yeah, you got to watch
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 3: Joan Rivers and Miss Piggy. It's just on television. And
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 3: my parents were probably like, turn it off and go
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 3: outside and clean the barn. And so that's what you did.
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 3: You cleaned the barn. Yeah. But God, what was the question?
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 3: The gayest thing I watched? What's the gayest thing you
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 3: saw as a kid on TV but knew you weren't
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 3: supposed to like? Spice World. Okay, that's good. Spice World counts. Yeah.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 3: That's camp. I was obsessed. Um, when I was at
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 3: summer camp, I didn't like playing all the sports and
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 3: I wanted to come home. And the owner of the
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 3: camp called my mother and said, for boys like Jonathan,
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 3: that's why we do the musicals. Care to comment? No,
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 3: but I, I, I just want to go back to
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 3: like the conversation about like, are you gay? Are you
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 3: not gay enough? And then you just asked me if
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 3: I'm gay. Cause I didn't see Miss Piggy and Joan
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 3: Rivers on television. Hey, I want you to know something.
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 3: I just feel like the bus came out of nowhere.
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 3: I got thrown right underneath it. Um, Well, if there's
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 3: a bus coming out of nowhere, talk to your husband.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 3: That sounds like a transportation problem to me. I have
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 3: never said that I wasn't a hypocrite. I'm a proud hypocrite.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 3: I don't always make sense, and I'm not coherent, and
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 3: I stand by that. That's good of you. Do you
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 3: think this went okay? How do you feel about this?
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 3: This was certainly an experience that we all shared together.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 3: In this room. How do you feel like it went?
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 3: I just want to know that you felt good about it.
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 3: So you didn't get to go on... This is stuff
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 3: I could talk about all day, though. I think these
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 3: are really important conversations, so I appreciate having it. And
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 3: you couldn't go on Kelly Clarkson because of the writer's strike. Yeah,
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 3: support your unions. And we're supporting unions, but this is...
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 3: So this became like, you flew out here, and now
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 3: you're just basically doing this. Come on, John. Don't be
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 3: mean to yourself like that. Anything else we should talk about?
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 3: The book is I Have Something to Tell You. Thanks
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 3: for having the conversation, because I also think it's really
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 3: important that you have this platform, and it's great that
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 3: you get to talk about whatever I want. Well, yeah,
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 3: but I'm sure that it's important to you, too. It
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 3: is important to me. To reflect on some of these things.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 3: I'm glad people listening finally found out that I'm gay. Yeah,
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 3: I think this is going to be a bombshell for
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 3: a lot of your listeners. And my parents. Oh, my God,
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 3: my parents listen to this. Mom, Dad, I have something
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 3: to tell you. I'm still gay. Oh, yeah, you did
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 3: the book title. Thank you so much. All right, let's
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 3: leave it there. I think we should stop now. Justin Buttigieg, everybody.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: Thanks. All right, before we go, a little coda on
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: the saga behind Tucker Carlson's firing last month. The New
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: York Times just reported that during Discovery and Dominion's lawsuit
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: against Fox, They found a text that Tucker sent his
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: producer just hours after the January 6th insurrection, where he
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: talks about watching a video online where a group of
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: white men attacked a so-called Antifa kid. Here's what the
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: text says. It was three against one, at least. Jumping
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: a guy like that is dishonorable, obviously. It's not how
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: white men fight. Yet suddenly I found myself rooting for
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: the mob against the man, hoping they'd hit him harder,
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: kill him. I really wanted them to hurt the kid.
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: I could taste it. Then somewhere deep in my brain,
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: an alarm went off. This isn't good for me. I'm
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: becoming something I don't want to be. Becoming? Becoming, yeah.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: So what do you think? Is this believable as the
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: final straw that caused Fox to fire Tucker?
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: Absolutely fucking not.
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: Okay. Why do you think not?
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 2: Because the entire sentiment behind that text It's been the
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: plot line of Fox News for 20 years. It is
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: a corporation who has been sowing racial division for profit
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: and political gain since it showed up on the air.
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: That is what they do. Now, maybe they have a
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: rule that says when it comes to racism, show, don't tell.
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 2: And if you speak the words out loud, you'll get fired.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: But this idea that somehow the– you know, the thoughtful
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: people at Fox News were shocked by this revelation. They're
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: not watching the fucking show. That's what the show's about.
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: I mean, there is a long.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: Well, it's funny you should say that because, you know,
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: we're no New York Times here, but we can report
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: that our crack team at Crooked has discovered more explosive
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: audio of Tucker than... that somehow slipped right past Fox's executives.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: Let's take a listen.
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: White supremacy, that's the problem. This is a hoax.
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 4: There's no evidence that white supremacists were responsible for what
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 4: happened on January 6th.
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 3: That's a lie.
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 4: We have a moral obligation to admit the world's poor,
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 4: they tell us, even if it makes our own country
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 4: poorer and dirtier and more divided. So it might be
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 4: time for Joe Biden to let us know what Kentaji
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 4: Brown Jackson's LSAT score was. What else are you doing
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 4: the LSATs? I mean, everyone wants to make a racial
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 4: issue out of it. Ooh, the, you know, white replacement theory.
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: No, no, no.
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 4: This is a voting rights question. I have less political
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 4: power because they're importing a brand new electorate. Why should
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 4: I sit back and take that? And the truth is
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 4: unregulated mass immigration has badly hurt this country's natural landscape.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: We're still not.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 4: Precisely sure how George Floyd died. Very few unarmed black
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 4: men are killed by white cops these days. Where's George
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 4: Floyd when you need him? The only job training program
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 4: this administration has gotten behind in two and a half
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 4: years is getting black people to sow more weed in
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 4: the cities.
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: Lovely. Just lovely. I will say Zach Beauchamp at Vox
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 1: had a good piece about this. And basically his argument
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: is both the texts and the show are racist. Racist intent.
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: But the difference is what he says on the show
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: is intended to make white people think that they're the
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: victims of reverse racism, liberal elitism, Democrats importing a new
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: electorate just to win an election. And what he said
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 1: in the text is just white people are better than
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 1: black people, essentially, is what he said in the text.
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: And there's a, again, there's racist intent to both. One
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: on the show is a strategy to make white people think, oh,
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: you're not the racists. they're being racist against you. And
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 1: in the text, it's just, oh, no, no, no, white
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: people wouldn't act like that. That's just the behavior of
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: non-white people. And so I do wonder if for the
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: Fox executives, they were like, well, that comes out in court.
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: That's too, it's too honest. It's too much of a
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: pulling back the veil for Tucker.
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: Well, it's also the rooting for the guy to be killed, right?
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the other thing that's sort of gotten lost
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: in this whole thing. Like I realized at the end,
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: he said, But then I realized this is I shouldn't
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: be becoming this person. But he's sitting there with fucking
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: wanting this kid to be killed and saying he could
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: taste it. So like, yeah, someone who's that fucking violent
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: as your most popular cable primetime cable host. Come on.
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 2: I just at the end of the day believe that
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 2: the only reason that they fired Tucker Carlson was because
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: they believe that he was going to hurt them financially.
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh, I think that even if this text was
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: the one that did it, they would think that this.
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that that's what it is. It's not moral. Yes,
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 2: it's not moral outrage.
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: Oh, no, no, it's not moral. You think like your
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: buddy Paul Ryan was on the board there and he
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: was like, this is it. I must take a stand. Yeah, no,
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 1: obviously it's all financial. But I do wonder if it's
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: just like there was a number of things around Tucker
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: and this was sort of the straw that broke the
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: camel's back. I could see that.
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 2: If you remember back in 2018, they fired one of
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 2: the executives in charge of news and editorial because he
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 2: was so upset at the diversity of the US Winter
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 2: Olympic team that he wrote an op-ed about it. And
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 2: it was just so bigoted and homophobic in every way, shape,
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 2: or form that they had to fire him. But even
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 2: though all of the underpinning themes of that op-ed ran
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 2: through the coverage every single day, But it's when you–
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 2: if you just say the words out loud in a
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 2: way that gets you caught, if you lose the subtlety
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 2: to your racism and your grievance politics, et cetera, then
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 2: you can get fired. But it's not the grievance politics
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 2: and the racism that upsets them.
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, we'll see Tucker when he hosts the first
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 1: Republican presidential debate. Part of that story also, by the way,
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 1: said he wants to do this because he wants to be, quote,
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: more than a podcaster. Tough. Tough hit. Anyway, thank you,
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 1: Chasten Buttigieg, for stopping by the studio. Everyone have a
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: great weekend, and we will talk to you next week. Bye, everyone.
• 1:09:10
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• 1:09:13
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• 1:09:17
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• 1:09:22
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• 1:09:25
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