Latest / WHAT I'VE LEARNT / What I've Learnt - Autumn Series Gems (April) (2022)

Transcript

What I've Learnt - Autumn Series Gems (April) (2022) · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, welcome to the Whether Flight Podcast.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Luke, one of the producers of the show.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: As a producer, I love my work and helping Deborah and our team share so many wonderful stories.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: From food to fashion and art to music, we've got you covered.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: In this episode, we will be highlighting some of the best moments of this past April.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: So sit back and enjoy.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_04: Upon retirement from professional football, Brendan Gale practiced law with King Wood Mallisons in the banking and finance practice.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_04: January 2005, Brendan was appointed CEO of the AFL Players Association, where he was responsible for representing the collective industrial interests of all AFL players.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_04: Brendan returned to Richmond as CEO in August 2009, and as CEO, Brendan leads a diverse team of over 150 people, a budget of approximately$90 million, and is responsible for the performance of all aspects of the organization.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_04: From your perspective, do you think there's a change in the culture of footy?
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_04: Do you think that the, for example, the mental health, you know, the approach to mental health, the support of players that are struggling, or you know, that was just when we and I were growing up, like what, 15, 20 years ago, it wasn't sort of talked about.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_04: It was like now it's become very, very on the front page to be able to say, you know what, this player's struggling mentally.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_04: What can we do to support him?
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_03: There's a huge change, huge change.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_03: And uh, you know, once again, sport, and particularly the elite level, I guess, of the we which we're part of.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, there it's there's such competitive environments, a-type males, and now women obviously play for football, but very driven.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_03: It's all about the fitter, faster, stronger.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_03: And you just you just you arrive and you just fit in, you know, you just fit in.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think for years and years we had young men coming into football clubs, you know, just wanted to fit in, just wanted to act the right way, say the right thing, mix to the right people, wear the right, you know, but as people and players from different socioeconomic backgrounds and class backgrounds and religious backgrounds probably didn't feel as they had permission to be themselves.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_03: So they wear these masks and yeah, and the thing, and and sometimes you know that would lead to sort of you know toxic behaviors when you're just trying to be something you're not.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_03: And but more importantly, how can you be at your optimum when you're not yourself?
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_03: So I think the big learning I think of football is is that that you know, developing leadership, encouraging people to be themselves, encouraging to know who they are, and that have that self sense of self-worth and self-expression is a really important part of developing leadership in sport.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_03: It's just as important as kicks, marks, and handballs, as you're, you know, 100 meter sprint and and also it happens to be a huge, I guess, front-end uh preventative approach to mental health and resilience.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_03: Because if you if you've if you've got the freedom to be yourself, if you're in an environment where you're encouraged to be yourself and where you feel safe and included and your dignity as a person and difference isn't just tolerated, it's celebrated.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_04: Absolutely.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_03: That's where it's shifting.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_03: And look, that's something where we've uh really zeroed in on in the last few years.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_03: And and the other part of that, Deborah, is when when you have the license and the freedom and the and the courage to be proud to be, to be yourself, to be authentic, and if that means be vulnerable, so be it.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_03: But when you when you are like that, it lends itself to connection.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_03: Because when someone invests in you authentically, openly, and vulnerably, then what happens?
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you don't run away.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna connect.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_03: You want to connect, yeah.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_03: You feel and and and you want to invest back, and connection is the basis of trust, and trust is a bedrock of teams.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_04: And this coming from someone like you, and for you know, you're at the top in terms of you've got a very important role in the players' association making sure that this is across the board.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_04: So you've got the Richmond story, but you've got the like uh working with other players, other teams to ensure that this is intrinsic and entrenched, yeah.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_03: And the well, yeah, yes and no.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_03: Look, I I I did work with the players' association years ago, and you know, and that's more than a union, more than a trade union, and and we're looking out for the you know the development of all players, but you know, I work with with a club, so I'm solely focused on Mitch and Free Club.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_04: But but so no longer, but still have a line, because I know you're not there now, but do you you still have a role or a presence?
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_04: I'm sure you're influenced.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_03: No, not at all.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_03: But what happens, what happens is, you know, um, is this incredible sense of imitation in the AFL.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_03: And once you're you know doomed to be a successful club, uh, you know, they'll pick you apart and find out, well, what are they doing?
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_03: What's their game plan?
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_03: What are the elements of their program they're doing that we should be doing?
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_03: And so, you know, we we really sort of, I guess, changed the way we wanted to develop leadership in our players, you know, five, six years ago.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_03: And I think this, um, and to be honest, we didn't make it up.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_03: It was off the back of some stuff Brene Brown was doing in the start.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, yeah, I'm impressed that you know Brene that you're into Brene Brown, and you know, this is wonderful to hear football.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but she's been to our club, she's been to the she's been to our game, she's been to the coach's box.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_02: She's brilliant.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_02: I love her.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_03: So it sort of catches on, you know what I mean?
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_03: It's uh in different ways.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that's it.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_03: To be to be an elite sporting team, as much focus goes into understanding of self and self-worth and self-expression than how much you can bench press or how quick you are or your skills.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, an incredible amount of work goes into that, which is which is um, you know, I think really positive.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_04: It's also transformational, to be honest.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_04: Like the, you know, listening to you and the way that you're talking, and clearly it's working for the club, and the enrichment's a real, I mean, it's a trailblazer in terms of both success, but also obviously, you know, you look at the formula and go, what is going on here?
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_04: How is this success?
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_04: And and what you've just alluded to is clearly part of the part of the success story, because it's about internal reflection, looking beyond, as you say, the bench presses and the fitness, which is obviously paramount, but that that is pretty impressive.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_04: Do you think that's something that you picked up when you were working with the players' association, or is it something that just came through the club?
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_04: Or how have you used this?
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_03: We had a tough year in 2016.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, we're making we're making progress as a team through you know, 13, 14, 15, making finals, not getting far.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_03: And at 16, we had every expectation we'd continue on that trajectory when we went backwards.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_03: We actually had a tough year.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and it was one of those years that was really, really tough.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_03: And and in a club like ours, when the experience falls short of the expectation, you know, the baseball bands come out, supporters, members, the media sort of inflame the whole thing.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_03: So, but we had a really good look at things, and it was uh it gave us a sort of sort of well, not a burning platform, but an opportunity to go back and have a real long look under the hood.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_03: And we're making great progress.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_03: And um, but we thought, yeah, like our we just there was something um, you know, about our leadership development and I guess the lack of connection and and lack of growth.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_03: And and we just, yeah, we sort of arrived at this, we arrived at this point at the same time with really, you know, the the coach, you know, the captain, we we in making sense of that year and how we're going to move forward.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we were exposed to some some TED talks from Breno Brown, there's some literature.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_03: The coach went on on a week-long course to Harvard Business School and authentic leadership.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_03: And so there was no one person or no one reason.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_03: It just sort of we arrived at the point at the same time.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_03: And I think when any sort of transformation will change, when you've got your key leaders who arrive at that place, they've got an open mind because things aren't something needs to change, and they've got open hearts to new ideas and new approaches, things can happen.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_03: And and so this whole new approach to developing leaders and and people took whole.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_04: It certainly did, and it certainly worked, and I think to be honest, became a you know a template for many other clubs to review the way that they were doing things.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_03: It's an it's not funny, it's a it's a quite a powerful story.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_04: Sure, yeah, love a powerful story.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_03: Then the I guess the responsibility came on the administrators and the staff.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_03: So, how you know, how can we create this environment um of openness and authenticity and and and and and vulnerability and connection and trust?
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_03: How can we go back?
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_03: You know, what resources do we put around the people to get them to tell their stories and reveal or be proud to be?
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_03: And um, because we have to think long and hard about that.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_03: And and but we come up with this uh what the senior coach called Triple H, a Triple H session where you talk about a hero, hardship, and highlight.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, I like this.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_03: And it goes to get up and talk, you know, in their own way about hero, hardship, and highlight their life.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_03: This is on the public record, uh, because it's been uh covered in a feature article.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_03: But there's a young player called Brandon Ellis, who is a two-time Premiership player coming, and he got up and talked about he was at a stage of his career where he just plateaued.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_03: We probably expected a bit more, he just sort of plateaued.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_03: And he got up and talked about his hardship and he talked about growing up in housing emission flats in North Carlton with a father's terminal illness, which we knew about.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_03: He talked the general uh circumstances, you call them modern-day poverty, but he talked about the shame he still carried um that he he didn't have any clothes, you know, and he he wanted to hang with his mates and have a good pair of jeans and and he just couldn't because his parents couldn't afford.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_03: So he's to steal clothes of clothes lines.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's when he's 13, 14, 15.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_03: So here he is, 20, 21, 22, and he carries that shame.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_03: And it just sort of sense of you know, maybe maybe I'm not deserving of being a great, maybe I'm maybe I'm not worthy, maybe I don't deserve success, maybe because of who I am or what I've done.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_03: It's uh so this is an experience.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_03: This is a very vulnerable, it's just sheer.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and very trusting, actually.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah, from that point on, it's sort of set the scene where people it's it's not it's not shame, it just is.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_03: People people do things they aren't proud of, it's just who we are, but sometimes circumstances demand anyway.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_03: He went off um he went to another level and you know became a really important player for us.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_04: And so do you think that sharing that, when he did share that, which required, as I said, a lot of trust.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_04: Do you think when he shared that, and just to clarify, was it that his father was unwell?
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_04: Is that what you said?
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_03: His father was unwell.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, his father was unwell.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_03: I think cancer at the time is working through, so you don't think it could work.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_04: It was he's in a real tough situation, and I think in that context, it was sort of understandable why a young kid would absolutely and to be honest, I I think it also shows what drives us and and that people can, you know, do what they gotta do sometimes, and and that's okay, but it's also maybe he then like flew, as you say, maybe in some ways, once he it was cathartic because what you're saying when he got to tell people and they went, Yeah, all right, mate.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_04: Well, you're all right, yeah.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_04: That's okay.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_04: How did the club respond?
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_04: Or how did that intimate experience for the other players, how was that for the well it just it's just set the ball rolling?
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_03: So when he wanted the first up, he really put himself out on a limb and um um and he he it's obviously something he'd been wanting to probably get off his chest and talk about, and and he did it, and you know, there were tears, and um, but you know, it it's out, it's not the worst thing in the world.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_03: It's um you know, guys have understand of empathy, and and then and and it drew people to him.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_03: It strengthened connection, and connection is trust, and the and the best teams, the best organizations, uh high trust environments.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_04: Um there's like a parenting role of sorts in a way for you guys, yeah.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_04: With these young players, you know.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_03: Well, the football club to some extent is, it's a huge responsibility.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_03: We bring these young men in and now young women, and they're you know, sometimes um they're 17, 18 years of age, and they're yeah, and they meant to go to this pressure corker environment and and um and just to fit in.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and so you know, so we we work really hard to you know to to really dip, we've got a huge responsibility to develop them, help them grow.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_03: And we believe that starts with self-knowledge.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_03: So look within.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_03: Before we start lifting heaps of weights and running time trials, let's look within, let's help you understand who you are, you know, and and um and and own that and and and be proud to be.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_04: Well, Australian arts leader, cultural producer, and curator with more than two decades of experience in international and Australian contemporary art and visual culture, Natalie King has a unique cultural footprint and networks in contemporary art, realizing landmark programs across Australia, Asia Pacific, and Europe.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_04: Working across multiple domains, her highly skilled leadership spans the life cycle of artistic production and management from new commissions, exhibitions, artistic partnerships, stakeholder relations, fundraising, and programming.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_04: You can go there.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_04: I think it's important for listeners, especially a lot of my young listeners, to know that there is a there, it's not one way to do things.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_05: If anything, sometimes the detours are the most interesting paths.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_05: So I might be heading towards one big project, and then, for example, I've just been invited to speak at a cultural leadership conference in Abu Dhabi run by Google and the Guggenheim.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, and I just said, Yep, okay, sure, I'm coming.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_05: You can just start to thread things together and sometimes unexpected detours.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_05: And you know, I'm quite interested in the Sharjah biennial, so I'll go and visit Sharjah so I've tried and but you've got to be attuned to opportunities as they arise and really harness them, not just stay, it's important to have goals and stay on path, but also be open to details.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_05: I guess when I mentor people, I I say both is important, and also what matters to you.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_05: So I find that after I've worked very intensively on a big outward-facing exhibition like a Biennale, I often like to have a quieter year where I'm maybe researching and writing and I'm more on my own or with my family, and then I might be traveling.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_05: So I try and make sure that my calendar is amenable for me so that I'm also nurturing myself and refueling myself because you know it's pretty relentless what we do and the expectations on us.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_04: Absolutely.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_04: And I know, like you, like me, you're a mother with kids, and you know, it's that, and trying to make sure that you have that life balance is is challenging.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_04: If you're traveling a lot and you're like, I know I'm the same as you, if I'm writing something, I'm immersed, or if I'm doing the podcast, it's a different pressure.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_04: But at the end of the day, I think, do you think it's made you as a parent and as a partner having this beautiful richness of your own journey?
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_04: Tell me about how you think that has enhanced your life, because I think it certainly enhanced mine.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_04: It's it means that you can still hold on to yourself in the midst of commitment to others, commitments and obligations and hopefully inspire our children.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, you've got daughters, I do too.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_05: So I want them to know that you can be a loving and caring mother, but you can also be very fulfilled intellectually and creatively.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_05: It is possible, it's not always easy.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_05: And I like them to see that, you know, this morning I did an interview with CNN, but tonight I'll be making bolognese.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_05: It's all kind of a messy chaos of being a mom and a woman and a wife and a daughter, and yeah, someone that's active and it's thrilling and it's chaotic sometimes, but it always I try and just stay secure in myself, really, and and trust trust my own judgment.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_05: And I think over time you learn those.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_05: No one can teach you how to do that, but you learn those skills to value yourself.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_04: I agree, and your judgment and also your intuition.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_04: And I know that I've had my daughters come to me and say, Oh mum, that's great.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_04: You're doing that, or it's really exciting.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_04: You know, I don't need accolade from my daughters.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_04: It's more that they I want them to know it very similarly.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_04: And I think what you say is very important because often there is still judgment around mothers, even though it shouldn't be, there is a pressure.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_04: Make sure that you're there, be there, be there.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, we're all there, but we also are better there if we've actually got a sense of our own path.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_04: And you've certainly got that.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_04: And I think I because I've often seen you and I both running past each other to go to school or to pick up food, or you know, we're not, we're in a similar world.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_04: And and I know that you, you know, you've got the biennale coming up, and you'd know that I've got a book coming out.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_04: And I think there's a lovely um, there's just that nod winks at respect for what we do, and hopefully it inspires others.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_04: And I hope that our girls learn from that.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_04: So are you also now you're also a professor, which we need to also say, go you.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_04: Well done.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_04: Um, tell me a bit about the educational side of things in terms of your role and how important that is to you, and what you'd like to see for the next gen coming through the system.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_05: So I'm based where you studied at the Victoria's Arts, which is the South Bank campus of the University of Melbourne.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_05: And previously I've always worked in museums, and museums are very regulated hierarchical environments, and I find an art school is nirvana for me because I love that.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_05: That's a great description.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_05: It's a place, it's youthful, it's a place of making, it's quite an informal environment, as you would know, and it's where I'm headquartered.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_05: So I I have limited teaching obligations, which I'm very grateful for.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_05: But I I do mentoring, I'm I'm on various committees, I have an office on campus, and I have wonderful colleagues.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_05: So I feel very much embraced in that environment, and also most importantly, I'm near artists.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_05: So I'm a curator and I'm near studios and artists because we have that beautiful stables complex.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it's great.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_05: You know, which is all the all the artist studios.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_05: So I feel like I'm exactly where I need to be as a curator.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_05: Whereas if I was in a museum, you feel more remote.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_05: You know, everything has to close at five, and there's so many committees, and I like to work very autonomously.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_05: So I work maybe like you as well with books, I work project-based.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_05: So, you know, we s I scale up as I go into the delivery phase.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_05: So for the Venice Biennale, it's not just me and that um artists.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_05: We have an assistant curator who's Pacifica, we have an exhibition designer, an exhibition manager, we have a locally engaged manager in Venice.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_05: It's a whole, it's a whole team and a whole structure, but I love that part of it.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_05: It's the collegiate, yeah.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_05: You've got also the collegiate aspect, yeah.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_05: Absolutely, and assembling, I guess, my own team and people who I like to work with.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_05: So the graphics behind me are designed by Ashley O'Neill from Salt Camp Studios, and she designs many of the Thames and Hudson books.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_05: And what the artist and I said to her is that we want a really Polynesian sensibility, so we want very warm tropical colours, but also she took a lead from the font and typography that she used.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_05: So there is a quite well-known Samoan typographer who was based in New Zealand called Joseph Churchwood.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_05: So she took inspiration from his typography to do our graphics, and also all the interwoven patterns relate to uh Siapo, which is the Samoan bar cloth, which is a traditional form of making.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_05: So we've tried to incorporate all these different Polynesian elements into our branding, our presentation, and you know, you need really skilled people because I don't know how to do this.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_05: I don't know how to do podcasts.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_05: I know what I can do, and you're right, you do need quite a broad skill set.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_05: So I might be doing interviews, I'm editing press releases at the moment.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_05: Working on schedules, but also captioning.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_05: And, you know, some of it can be quite straightforward.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_05: Administrative tasks.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_05: Also looking after the artists is one of my main responsibilities.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_04: I was going to say that, yeah, because they actually, that that is actually quite a big thing for an artist to be going to the Biennali.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_04: It must be just so overwhelmingly exciting.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_04: It's like going to the Grammys or you know, for a musician.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_05: It's the Olympics of the art world.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_05: From my experience, artists get quite feverish right before because there's a lot of pressure on them and they're really in the international spotlight.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_05: So part of my role is to make sure that they're they're looked after, they're briefed properly.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_05: There's also a lot of white noise around the Venice Biennale.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_05: Everyone wants access to the artist.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_05: So for example, with Tracy Moffat, she took a long time to make her photographs.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_05: They go into, I didn't quite realise, a very long phase of post-production.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_05: So she could work on one photograph for three months and she is redoing it.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_05: And the best thing I could give her was time in the studio.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_05: I can't work on those photographs, only she can.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_05: So I needed to keep all the journalists and I need to keep everyone away so she could have that precious time in her studio.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_05: And so I work very much in tandem, depending on what the needs of the artist is and how I can best support them to realise their projects.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_05: And sometimes that's fundraising, sometimes that's hustling.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, I was about to say, well, that's the other thing, and that is an important point you raise, because the arts obviously has had a complete battering across the board.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_04: It's already challenging to get arts into the main palladium, if you like, of life, like saying to people, because they see it as a, well, you know, I don't need that, I don't have to buy art this year or whatever.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_04: So then you have the COVID overlay.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_04: So, and I know this is also with music and albums and books, etc., but they're also the very thing that a lot of people turn to for great comfort, and also because people were home, they were like, well, I might as well get that beautiful piece of art.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_04: So, what are the realities of the art world in terms of funding, financing, and actually these people earning a living and being able to survive?
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_05: Look, to be honest, it's very tough.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_05: And with our new budget, there's a 20% cut in our which is very disheartening.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_05: And it would be fair to say that the arts, the whole sector is in a state of distress.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_05: However, we do always somehow find a way through.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_05: Somehow.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_05: I think you know, the remuneration for artists and creatives is often, you know, you're meant to do it because you're you love it, but really, you know, it's a it's cultural labor.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_05: It needs to be remunerated.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_05: It's yeah, it's absolutely vital, and we have to stand up for our creatives.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_05: And there's, you know, there's no wonder that during COVID, people were forming online choirs, people were doing poetry recitals, people were turning to the arts because the arts is the soul of any community.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_05: And we saw that even if you were baking, I mean, how many of us started baking?
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_05: I I learned to make hollers.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_05: I never thought I'd do that.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_05: I'm very impressed that you did that.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_04: Used to join it.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_04: I did it a little bit, but I I do the the online choirs and the musicians, and and you know, you speak to someone like you know, or even John Stevens and all of those artists that were used to traveling and being out live were like, we are literally not there now.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_04: Like, where are we?
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_04: We're just stuck.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_04: So they were all going online, trying to actually find a way to stay connected and communicate.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_04: Art, it's also quite material and tactile, and it's a very visual thing that can work online, but a lot of it is you need to stand in front of it and have it.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_04: True, true.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_05: It's experiencing like going to a concert.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_05: However, I think we've also learned from this period how important it is to have virtual access.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_04: 100%.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_04: There's no choice now.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_05: Look, going to the Venice Biennale is very a very privileged opportunity.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_05: So we uh we will have a very active online presence, we will have QR codes in the exhibition where you can then there'll be cutaways to the artists talking about the work.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_05: Um, so I think most or many of the pavilions are thinking like this.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_05: And you know, I know myself I was at home for two years, and I could look at these, it's not the same, but I could still go on virtual tours of you know, MoMA if I wanted to.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_04: Love and grief, both a type of madness and both obsessively documented.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_04: Love wins the documentation stakes, but grief lately isn't far behind.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_04: Writers believe they can diminish the grief madness by finding the words of explanation.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_04: Explanation for the inexplicable, metaphors for a place where there are none.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_04: Death is inventive and enjoys surprising us.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_04: Author Natasha Shaw was 22 when her partner Rob died.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_04: He was 27.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_04: She woke in the middle of the night to find he had slipped on top of her, making strange noises.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_04: Then his heart stopped.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_04: It is unimaginable.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_04: 22.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_04: About to begin a new life, living in a new apartment with a man she loved, and he dies in their bed.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_04: She's unable to save him.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_04: She doesn't believe he has died.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_04: She blames herself.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_04: The daughter of a doctor, the sister of two doctors, and she just couldn't save him.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_04: How hard was it to recollect that sea of grief that writing this book, and how essential was it for you as a sort of catharsis?
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's a really interesting question because, in some ways, I didn't have to revisit the grief at all.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's very present in my life.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I think that's also something that I was exploring in the book, the way that how we think grief evolves isn't necessarily what happens.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: And for a long time I thought that that meant that I was doing grief wrong because I still felt it.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: It was so palpable still, 16 years later.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what I just had to lean into and explore the reality that yes, I have really hard moments and really hard days, and I have beautiful moments.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: And under underneath all that, there's still this hum of this other life that could have been, and neither one takes away from the other.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I sort of didn't have to go back in time because it's just so part of who I am now, I guess.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_04: That's really interesting.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_04: I think that's a very important reflection because what you're saying is it becomes actually almost part of life and your life, that it doesn't just dissipate into the ether of the universe, um, it becomes intrinsic to who you are.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and you have to learn to sort of integrate it as opposed to push against it.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I did push against it for so long because I just thought it was incompatible with living a full life.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: And then at some point you just have to embrace it and accept that, not accept the death or accept what happened, but accept that you're a changed person and that that's okay because that's normal.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like it would be weird if you had this trauma or life-changing experience and then everything just went back to normal.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like no one expects that to happen.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: But yet in the face of death, we're still sort of surprised at how different everything is, not just that we're changed as a person, but our viewpoint is changed, like how we experience the world is completely different as well.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_04: How did it change you?
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_04: So, in what way?
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_04: Because speaking to people who are close to me recently, um, they feel completely transformed by the experience on many levels.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_04: How was it that how did it transform you and in what way?
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: I guess how I thought it should transform me was that I'd be, I'd have this sort of trajectory where you experience something negative and then you come out the other side a better person and you have this appreciation for life and you're grateful and resilient, and everything is, you know, that's sort of the story that we're told from Hollywood movies.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: But sort of, and yes, there are those moments where I just appreciate the tiniest things, and I'm so grateful for just the ordinariness of the everyday because that's such a contrast from where I'd come from.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, like, you know, I still get stressed over minor inconveniences.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: I still all those elements, but they haven't changed who I am as a person.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't come out this sort of, I don't know, warrior woman, amazing human being.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just as ordinary and flawed as I always was.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: But also I think it's changed the perspective that you have and the way that you experience the world.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: So in the shorter term, I guess it's, you know, things that once would have elicited a certain response, you just sort of feel almost numb.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's a lot of what I went through in the early stages.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think I was quite shocked by that.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like I just I thought I'd feel more because I'd been through so much, but I was just numb.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: I was completely shut off from the world.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess part of that recovery is learning to just feel again and trust the world again.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: Because when especially a sudden death as well, like you lose that trust in the world.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like you walk around at before that thinking, well, everything will work out.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: And then all of a sudden things don't always work out, and the sense of control that you think you have is gone forever.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: So that safety net is completely gone.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_04: And so, in what when you say that it numbed you, so was it did that make you numb to things clearly as is evident, you've married and you've gone on to have your children, and so you found some pathway through to reconnect with yourself on both levels, because you require that to some degree in order to marry, to love, to have children.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_04: So, was that something that took a number of years to re-engage, or is it something you just learned to switch, find that switch again?
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it was other people being completely supportive and accepting of who I was.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: So it wasn't something that I could do on my own.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I tried a long time to sort of yeah, do things on my own and it just wasn't working.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think you can do anything in isolation.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: So having the support from a partner who just accepted me completely who I was, not just that I came with baggage or I came with a history, but that my history is very much part of my present and that my feelings for Rob are not something that would disappear.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we didn't break up.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: I lost him, he died.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm never not going to be sad about that, I'm never not going to love him.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: And to have a partner who accepts that and holds space for that and loves Rob because I loved him.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's very complex, but from day one, he was all in.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: And if anything, I was the one who struggled with navigating that.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_04: I can understand that because you had to that you had to find that that trust to reconnect and not fear loss again.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_04: Is that right?
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: And just to yeah, to throw myself back into life again and accept that, you know, disaster wasn't around every corner, and that yeah, I was sort of in that fight or flight mode for so long that just sort of rebalancing was sort of tricky to navigate.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_04: But I I think your reference to community is interesting too, and to friendship, um, because I can see just around what I'm observing in the way that that that capacity for great communal love in the face of extreme tragedy is so powerful and so potent and actually goes to the center of our core humanity, doesn't it?
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_04: And so, in some ways, does that, as much as the universe does things you just cannot comprehend, like what happened with Rob, it also has this embedded in our, maybe in our DNA, the capacity to unite, to protect.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's such a powerful force.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a few people after they'd read the book said it was almost like a love letter to my family or a love letter to my friends.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't necessarily a book about grief.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it is, but it's not just a book about grief and loss, it's about yeah, that community and the way that other people can save us.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: I honestly don't think I would have made it through without the support and friendship and love that was offered to me from day one.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_04: And so that gives you renewed faith.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_04: I can see in the book and that sense that that there are people holding you through the journey.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_04: And that is so affirming.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_04: And also in ways that you don't anticipate, what were some of the um, I suppose in that early phase, what do you think some of the greatest struggles were?
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_04: And obviously, we'll get to your your partner and your your marriage that came later.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_04: But what is it that at that very cold face time do you think?
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I know obviously people bring food and they literally physical requirements are, you know, to make sure that you're fed and that you're, you know, clothed and supported while you try and you know, wade through the mud of all the grief.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_04: But what was it, do you think, that when you started to feel the wheel turn to some sense of balance?
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think what I hadn't um expected at the time, like in the aftermath of that grief, I was so unprepared just for the physicality of it and the like the the intensity of it and anger, there was just so much anger.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like I I was just, I could feel it in my fingertips constantly.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like I was just yeah, bubbling up with anger all the time.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: And it was completely unpredictable.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: So at that time, you know, we're in our early 20s, my friends were in, you know, new relationships or they were single and having fun, and I was thrust into this widowhood that just wasn't um aligned with the stage of life that we were in.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: So not only did I not know how to navigate that because I was completely unprepared, but obviously my friends didn't either, like none of us were prepared for it.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I think just having those people who said, like however I reacted and responded, um, they just accepted it in a way that allowed space for me to process those emotions.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: So if I was reactive and angry, they didn't necessarily get, you know, offended or push me away.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: They were like, okay, well, what can we do?
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: Because what worked on one day wouldn't necessarily work on another day.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, if they gave me some space, I would feel rejected.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: If they were, you know, their 24-7, I felt smothered.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like there was just there was no right way, and I couldn't direct them what to do.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: And whatever they did felt wrong from both of our perspectives.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: So it was just such a big ask for them.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: But I guess just that acceptance and trying and trying again and trying again, and if that didn't work, to just show up and not just to say to me, We're here if you need anything, but just to keep showing up.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: And like after this book, you know, people had said things, told me things that I didn't realize at the time, either because I forgot them, because I was just in such a haze, or I just wasn't aware of them.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like one of my closest friends, Carla, said that she would call my mum almost daily, or my mum would call her, and it was this conversation is is she going to be okay?
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_01: And the answer was, I don't know, because that's how sort of severe things were at the time.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: But they were in contact and I didn't know that.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: So there were all these things happening behind the scenes where everyone was trying to, you know, rally the troops, I guess, in a way.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: And that, yeah, if I if they invited me for dinner and I was like, How could you, how could you do that?
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: Why would I want to sit at a table of couples like that?
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, which is something that happened, they'd be like, okay.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then the next day they would try again and try something different.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: And however I responded and however I reacted, they never made me feel that that was abnormal.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: It was just, we will get through this together and we will be there no matter what.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for listening.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_00: The What I've learned podcast comes out every Tuesday for more amazing stories from fantastic guests.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: Check out the What I've learned Instagram for more updates.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: And as Deb would say, stay tuned, kind, and curious.