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Duck Superman · Politix

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: The one who ought to speak up would be for Merrick Garland to be like,
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: I regret the way I handled myself.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: And now the file should come out.
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  SPEAKER_01: The day before the election, Batman comes to see Superman.
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  SPEAKER_01: He says, do you have anything we can use against Luther?
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  And Superman,
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  you know,
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  kind of garlanding it says,
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  is that what we do now?
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  Dig into people's personal backgrounds so they can't run for
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  political office.
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  SPEAKER_01: And Batman says, we're talking about Luther.
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  SPEAKER_01: And Superman says, yes.
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  And that's why you have to put some faith in the American
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  people to do the right thing.
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  Hey everyone,
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  you're listening to a free preview of the Politics Podcast.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: This week we'll talk about the new Superman movie,
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  SPEAKER_00: the revealing right-wing backlash to the new Superman movie,
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  and look at what it has to do with the recent history of
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  right-wing scandal,
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  SPEAKER_00: including,
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  SPEAKER_00: possibly,
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: the Jeffrey Epstein scandal.
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  SPEAKER_00: We'll get into all of it,
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  including the question of whether Democrats should be more like
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  Superman or less
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  SPEAKER_00: like Superman.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to hear the whole conversation,
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: you can upgrade your subscription to paid at politics.fm.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: Hey everyone, welcome to the Politics Podcast.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Brian Boyler.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Matthew Iglesias.
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  SPEAKER_00: So very quick background.
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  I wrote an article last week about the right-wing backlash to
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  the new Superman movie.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then yesterday,
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  SPEAKER_00: Matt suggested that we should do an episode about it,
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  which I agreed to because I'm a sporting kind of fellow and I
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  don't like to be
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  SPEAKER_00: irritable.
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  SPEAKER_00: Anyway,
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  but it puts me in a little bit of a bind because the whole
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  premise of the piece is
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  SPEAKER_00: that I'm like not an encyclopedic
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  SPEAKER_00: Comic book nerd.
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  SPEAKER_01: Well, this is, you know, so I read Brian's piece.
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  SPEAKER_01: I was like, this is a good piece.
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  SPEAKER_01: But he's also, he's like bending over backwards.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm not like one of those comic book nerds, you know?
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're right, but also it's true.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's true.
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  SPEAKER_01: I know.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying it's not true.
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  SPEAKER_01: I...
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  SPEAKER_01: am a comic book nerd, but not just any kind of comic book nerd.
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  SPEAKER_01: I feel that when I was a kid,
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to say the cool comic book nerds,
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  SPEAKER_01: but the less nerdy comic book nerds,
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  SPEAKER_01: they were into their X-Men,
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  SPEAKER_01: stuff like that,
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  and really got to rule the roost at the cinema for most of my
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  30s as the Marvel
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  SPEAKER_01: Cinematic Universe took over.
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  SPEAKER_01: But I was a huge DC Comics fan.
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  SPEAKER_01: Superman fan,
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  SPEAKER_01: Batman fan,
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  SPEAKER_01: Green Lantern,
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  SPEAKER_01: The Flash,
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  SPEAKER_01: all that shit that kept flopping in the mass media.
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  SPEAKER_00: One of your breakout punditry pieces was from the aughts.
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  SPEAKER_00: It was the Green Lantern theory of politics.
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  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
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  SPEAKER_00: You can attribute that basically entirely to having grown up a huge nerd.
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  SPEAKER_00: I didn't really...
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
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  SPEAKER_01: Because like it's like and like nobody fucking likes that character.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's great.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: DC was like mostly flailing at the box office,
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  SPEAKER_01: struggling with their cinematic universe.
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  SPEAKER_01: And to the extent that they penetrated out of like pure movie world,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: as like a meme and a political topic,
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  SPEAKER_01: it was the release the Snyder Cut movement.
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  in which right-wingers wanted Zack Snyder's original vision for
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  the Justice League
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  SPEAKER_01: movie to come out.
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  And Zack Snyder,
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  before that sort of botched production,
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  had done two Superman movies.
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  SPEAKER_01: He did Man of Steel and he did Superman v. Batman.
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  SPEAKER_01: And those movies,
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  SPEAKER_01: I feel like,
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  SPEAKER_01: are not only bad,
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  SPEAKER_01: but they,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: fundamentally betray what the Superman character is all about,
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  SPEAKER_01: which James Gunn got right,
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  SPEAKER_01: which the original...
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  SPEAKER_01: Superman movie from the 70s gets right,
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  SPEAKER_01: and which I thought,
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  SPEAKER_01: as Brian quite perceptively pointed out,
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  SPEAKER_01: it generates right-wing backlash because that is what Superman is.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it's not a...
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  SPEAKER_01: conservative, friendly character, um, or story.
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  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's something that I, I enjoy a lot.
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  SPEAKER_01: Um, and Superman is number one at the box office for two weeks in a row.
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  SPEAKER_01: You know, you go woke, you get rich, um, as we've always said.
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  SPEAKER_01: Um,
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  Okay,
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  so I knew enough about Superman to know about the basic virtues
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  that he stood for.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's,
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  SPEAKER_00: even though,
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  SPEAKER_00: like,
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  my main exposure to Superman as a kid was the 1970-whatever
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  Christopher Reeves
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  SPEAKER_00: movie,
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  SPEAKER_00: which is,
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: he's a virtuous character in that movie,
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  SPEAKER_00: but I think that the...
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  SPEAKER_00: like,
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  the woke pro-immigrant aspect of the gun movie is missing from
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  that movie,
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  SPEAKER_00: if I remember right.
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  SPEAKER_00: But I still knew, you know, because it was just kind of ambient.
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  SPEAKER_00: Like,
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  SPEAKER_00: the few cells of Superman comic strips that I saw were all about,
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  SPEAKER_00: like,
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  SPEAKER_00: anti-Nazi,
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  SPEAKER_00: pro-inclusion,
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  SPEAKER_00: things like that.
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  SPEAKER_00: And...
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  It was the one thing that as a kid attracted me to the
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  character because all my
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  SPEAKER_00: friends who were comic book nerds found Superman frustrating because his
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  SPEAKER_00: invincibility drained a lot of dramatic tension.
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  SPEAKER_00: from a lot of the stories because he's always going to win the fight.
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  SPEAKER_00: So you know how the story ends every time.
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  SPEAKER_00: And not only the story, but every altercation within the story.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that struck me when I was,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: a preteen or a teen as a pretty good critique of why,
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  SPEAKER_00: like,
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  SPEAKER_00: Batman is a better hero.
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  SPEAKER_00: Because, like, not only is he a darker character, but he's beatable.
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  SPEAKER_00: Like, he could lose and he could die.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's missing from Superman.
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  SPEAKER_00: So what is...
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  SPEAKER_00: What is there to draw people in?
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  SPEAKER_00: It's the moral lessons of Superman.
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  And then when you get older and you start thinking about
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  questions of democracy and
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  SPEAKER_00: political legitimacy,
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  what does it mean to have somebody who behaves in a virtuous
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  way but is in essence
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  SPEAKER_00: stronger than the state itself?
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  SPEAKER_00: And what obligation does that put on him?
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  SPEAKER_00: What obligation does that put on the government?
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  SPEAKER_00: All of that is in the gun movie, I thought.
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  And I think all of it is very consonant with a form of
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  conservatism that was dying
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  SPEAKER_00: and then Trump fully stamped out.
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  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't think that Republicans...
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  SPEAKER_00: even 20 years ago,
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  SPEAKER_00: but definitely not like 40 or 50 years ago,
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  SPEAKER_00: would have seen a 1970s,
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  SPEAKER_00: 80s,
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  90s version of Superman that's kind of like the gun movie for
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  that era and have
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  SPEAKER_00: thought,
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  SPEAKER_00: this is unacceptably partisan and anti-Republican.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's now because...
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  of elements of corruption and cruelty that Trump have
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  normalized in right-wing politics.
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  SPEAKER_00: Is that fair?
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  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I mean, I think that that's right.
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  SPEAKER_01: Although I think,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: we were like little kids in the 80s,
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  SPEAKER_01: so I'm not sure we 100% like have a handle on what,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: the political culture of the 80s right was.
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  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, so I mean, I think Superman, right?
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
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  I wish that Gunn had not like editorialized on his own movie
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  because I just think
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  SPEAKER_01: it's like,
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  SPEAKER_01: It actually undercuts,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: a work of fiction to have the creator come out and be like,
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  SPEAKER_01: you get it?
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  SPEAKER_01: Superman's an immigrant.
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  SPEAKER_01: Because, like, it's really in the text.
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  SPEAKER_01: And there's always been that aspect of Superman.
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  SPEAKER_01: But I think the sort of more interesting,
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  SPEAKER_01: actually,
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  SPEAKER_01: political aspects of it are what you said later,
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  SPEAKER_01: which is that,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: there's the...
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  SPEAKER_01: A lot of the best Superman stories,
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  SPEAKER_01: because it's so boring to have him just fight somebody and defeat them.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's not interesting.
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  SPEAKER_01: Superman faces enemies who are asymmetrical, right?
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  SPEAKER_01: And who target him in a way that it's not that Superman couldn't.
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  SPEAKER_01: fly to LexCorp headquarters and incinerate Lex Luthor.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's that, like, he wouldn't, right?
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  SPEAKER_01: Like,
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  SPEAKER_01: it's not,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: in the comics where these stories don't need to wrap up as quickly,
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  SPEAKER_01: that's just sort of often the thing,
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  SPEAKER_01: is that,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  Superman will foil the evil plan and he will know that Lex
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  Luthor is behind the
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  SPEAKER_01: evil plan.
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  But he won't be able to like publicly expose Luther in a way
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  that would be
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  SPEAKER_01: politically legitimate.
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  SPEAKER_01: And he doesn't want to just dismember his enemy on television.
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  SPEAKER_01: Superman 2 from 1980 or 81,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: gets at another aspect of this,
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  SPEAKER_01: which is that Superman there is fighting,
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  right?
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  SPEAKER_01: these other Kryptonians,
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  SPEAKER_01: who are both,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: challenging for him to fight because they're strong,
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  but also they're putting on the table exactly what's in
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  Jor-El's message in the new
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  SPEAKER_01: Superman,
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  SPEAKER_01: which is,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: you're stronger than these people.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like, thanks to the yellow sun, like, you should rule over them.
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  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I don't think that, like,
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  SPEAKER_01: Reagan-era conservatives would have,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: were,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: throwing a fit about the idea that this,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: might makes right is bad.
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  But,
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  like,
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  that is a,
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  you know,
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  like,
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  a strain of deep conservative thought,
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  right?
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  SPEAKER_01: Like, not just Donald Trump, but, like, Joseph de Maistre.
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  SPEAKER_01: And,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: the long arc of conservative thinking is that,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: the strong should rule the weak,
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  SPEAKER_01: that hierarchy is good,
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  SPEAKER_01: that equality is bad,
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  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_01: That democracy is, is, is for suckers.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think that you are right about the,
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  SPEAKER_00: like,
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  SPEAKER_00: if you look at conservatism is like a,
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  SPEAKER_00: a quasi consistent philosophical strain going back 150 years.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
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  There happened to be world war two and a lot of people who
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  became Republicans
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  SPEAKER_00: fought in world war two.
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  And so for the majority of the existence of Superman as a
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  fictional character,
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  SPEAKER_00: because Superman predates World War II.
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  SPEAKER_00: Am I wrong?
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  SPEAKER_01: He's like roughly, he's from the 40s.
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  SPEAKER_01: Okay, okay, okay.
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  SPEAKER_00: I thought he was from the 20s.
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  SPEAKER_00: Or I guess the late 30s.
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  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so his whole, yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: So he emerges in that milieu,
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  and his character is so interwoven with anti-Nazi thematics
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  that even if there
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  SPEAKER_00: might be some philosophical level on which...
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  Republicans of the Reagan era might have said he should have
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  just vanquished his
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  SPEAKER_00: enemies because he had the power to do it.
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  SPEAKER_00: They liked the character because,
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  SPEAKER_00: A,
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  SPEAKER_00: anti-fascist,
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  SPEAKER_00: and B,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: like,
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  SPEAKER_00: presented a,
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  SPEAKER_00: like,
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  put a virtuous face on ideas they had that were actually a bit
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  more militant.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's like a coincidence, you know?
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  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: No, I mean, I think that's right.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that, you know, post-war American conservatism
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  was very fused with liberal values as a result of the World War
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  II experience and a
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  SPEAKER_01: sense that,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: America had a mission in the world,
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: right?
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  SPEAKER_01: Like,
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  SPEAKER_01: nationalistic,
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: like a conservative,
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  SPEAKER_01: but,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: the nature of the American mission was this high-minded,
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  SPEAKER_01: city-on-a-hill type stuff.
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  And,
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  of course,
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  like,
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  that brand of conservative politics was extremely...
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  Like Eisenhower and Nixon and Reagan won majorities that were
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  like inconceivable by
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  SPEAKER_01: contemporary standards.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we now have,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: with Trump,
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: but like,
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  SPEAKER_01: especially like the younger post-Trump figures,
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  SPEAKER_01: right,
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: this much more kind of Nietzschean mentality.
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  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: it's nationalistic conservatism,
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  but it's nationalistic in a way that that strikes me as sort of
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  un-American.
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  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  It's like when when when Superman fights for truth,
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  justice in the American way.
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  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like the American way is a set of abstract principles.
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  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  That like have a relationship to the history of the United
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  States of America and
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: our Constitution and our Declaration of Independence and our way of life.
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  SPEAKER_01: But like the American way is not we should have taken the oil.
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  SPEAKER_01: Right?
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  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know what I mean?
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like, it's a view.
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  And,
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  you know,
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  when this relates to,
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  I mean,
• 12:26
  this is a long tradition in American thought.
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  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: when Abraham Lincoln is delivering the Gettysburg Address,
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: he doesn't just say that,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: we're deciding,
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: who's going to control the global cotton trade.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's whether...
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  That nation or any nation so constituted can perish from the
• 12:48
  earth,
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  right?
• 12:48
  There's an idea that like the principles of democratic equality
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  are not unique to
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  SPEAKER_01: America,
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  but that America has a unique relationship with these
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  transcendent liberals.
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  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, Superman as he was created in 1938.
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  SPEAKER_01: So like before World War Two, but in the midst of the Nazi era.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_01: And he's created by by Jewish American children of immigrants.
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  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, from the get go, you know, he's a he's an interventionist.
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  SPEAKER_01: in World War II.
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  There's a not very good story where he just like punches Hitler
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  or something,
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: which doesn't really make a ton of sense as fiction.
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  SPEAKER_01: But so, you know, and I mean, it goes back.
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  SPEAKER_00: He should have gone back and killed baby Hitler.
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's what.
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  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
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  You know,
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  because the mere fact that Superman is an immigrant is sort of
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  a little bit,
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  um,
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  SPEAKER_01: neither here nor there,
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  SPEAKER_01: because you could say,
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  SPEAKER_01: consistent with Trump's policies and values,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: sure,
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: we're just,
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: I just want to get rid of like the riffraff from the shithole countries,
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 13:59
  But like,
• 13:59
  of course,
• 13:59
  we want to recruit like Kryptonian supermen to our shores.
• 14:03
  But like what's really Superman-y about Superman is that he
• 14:10
  spends all this time
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: caring about people who are weaker than him,
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: like for no reason.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: And that's like the big difference.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like the Zack Snyder Superman...
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: when he's fighting General Zod,
• 14:25
  picks him up and throws him into high-rise office buildings in
• 14:30
  Metropolis as a
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: battle tactic.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: And real Superman heads, like me and others, were appalled by this.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: Superman would not...
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: deliberately endanger civilians.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: No, he'd fly between... In order to gain the upper hand in the fight.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: Fly between the body and the building to prevent a collision, yeah.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: And in this new one,
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: the stakes in the fights,
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: even when Superman's fighting somebody who's very strong,
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: the point is always that Superman is,
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: doing all this extra work to,
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: save animals.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: And when they're fighting that monster,
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: he's trying to,
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: get the other heroes to not explode the monster.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: He wants to, like...
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: Rescue him and send him to someplace where it's safe.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like he's a you know,
• 15:15
  he's like a Elon Musk says that the West suffers from I think
• 15:21
  he called it like
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: toxic empathy.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: Too much compassion.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:25
  So it's like the idea is that like us,
• 15:28
  these like powerful Western society is horrible.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: have ruined ourselves by caring too much about other people,
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: other people who are weaker than us.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, that's a classic,
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: right wing critique of the left that like you guys are suckers,
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: that you're going to be flying around,
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: saving little girls,
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: saving a cat,
• 15:55
  worrying too much that you shouldn't be blowing up this Kaiju
• 15:59
  who after all is just
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: being manipulated by other people.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: And that what you need- What kind of Jew?
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: Kaiju.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: I do.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's the Japanese.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, don't worry about it.
• 16:09
  You know,
• 16:09
  and comics books are,
• 16:10
  you know,
• 16:11
  and we need we need we need a tough guy.
• 16:13
  We need,
• 16:17
  you know,
• 16:17
  someone who's going to make the hard choices,
• 16:19
  a strong man.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: And supposedly, like, that's what Trump is.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 16:25
  Trump is the guy who's not obsessed with all this virtue
• 16:29
  signaling and with whether
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: the Daily Planet will say he's a nice guy,
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: that he's doing what needs to be done.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: And this, you know, the Gene Hackman character from A Few Good Men.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: Not Gene Hackman.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: Jack Nicholson.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: Jack Nicholson, yeah.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: Gene Hackman was in the original Superman.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: Superman, yeah.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'm mixing them up.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: A few good men Jack Nicholson, right?
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: You need me on that wall, right?
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like, that's, like, conservatives.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: Politics and, you know...
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously,
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: this is like a fake made up story,
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: but it is a strong cultural statement,
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: not about like woke controversies circa 2017,
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: but about this like deeper question that like,
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: is the average person like too hung up?
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: On, quote-unquote, virtue signaling?
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: Or,
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: is it,
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: in fact,
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: better to,
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 17:22
  challenge ourselves and to challenge others to try to be better
• 17:26
  people and care
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: more about others?
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: And, like, Gunn is saying, like, the latter, right?
• 17:32
  I agree with all that,
• 17:33
  but I think it is revealing that the critique that...
• 17:37
  that today's Republicans are offering of the movie is not what
• 17:40
  you just said.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's not to go frontally at the idea that Superman is too virtuous.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's this, it's this pretense about, about wokeness and immigration.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that if, I think that that reflects a change.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: we can't know because it didn't happen,
• 17:55
  but I remember the hothouse environment after 9-11 and in the
• 17:58
  lead up to the Iraq
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: war.
• 17:59
  And if shortly after the Iraq war had began,
• 18:01
  a director like,
• 18:04
  like James Gunn had,
• 18:05
  had,
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: released a Superman movie that was like...
• 18:14
  a very unsubtle allegory about preemptive war and about why
• 18:20
  preemptive war is wrong.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: And Superman's role in the movie was to stop the preemptive war,
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: which,
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: by the way,
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: there's something like that in this movie.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: But imagine that coming out in like 2004.
• 18:34
  I don't think that George Bush and Dick Cheney or the people
• 18:37
  who spoke for them
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: would go on TV and say...
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: this Superman movie is bad because it's Democrat immigration propaganda.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: They would have said,
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 18:49
  like either we think the construction of the Superman character
• 18:53
  is bad or that we
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: think our interpretation of Superman is that he,
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: he understands the greater good and he would be supportive of us in that.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: And like, obviously like at, at the time there was like, you know, uh,
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: this sort of Christopher Hitchens-ish democracy promotion,
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: lipstick on a pig version of neoconservatism.
• 19:16
  And then there was like a rougher,
• 19:17
  like,
• 19:17
  are you with us or with the terrorist version?
• 19:19
  And they would have filtered their criticism into actually what
• 19:22
  upset them about the movie.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think that's what's happening,
• 19:26
  in part because one of the people who's like one of the loudest
• 19:30
  critics of this
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: movie is Dean Cain,
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: Who played Superman.
• 19:36
  So I don't think it washes that he never realized that Superman
• 19:43
  was supposed to be
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: an immigrant,
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: supposed to be tolerant of immigrants,
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: was all about empathy,
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: etc.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like, he must know that.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: And yet that's the critique he's leveling at the new movie.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: And for me,
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: it's the actual plot that was written for this movie,
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: which I don't know if it actually comes from the...
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: from the comic books or not.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's, it's an original story, right?
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: Kind of like about the, like the, the, the war between.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: No, that's that.
• 20:10
  They,
• 20:10
  they,
• 20:11
  they,
• 20:11
  they made that up as a kind of mashup of Russia,
• 20:15
  Ukraine and Israel,
• 20:16
  Gaza.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: And, and if you,
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: If you sweep away the fictionalization aspects that make it allegorical,
• 20:29
  it's really a story about how it was wrong of Donald Trump to
• 20:33
  extort Ukraine.
• 20:35
  It's wrong of Elon Musk to use all of his money to topple the
• 20:42
  sovereignty of whole nations.
• 20:43
  It's wrong of right-wing autocrats to steal people's emails and
• 20:49
  leak them in order to...
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: alter elections, you know, or influence elections.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: And like that all just happened in our lives.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: I,
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: I don't like,
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think some of these critics are smart enough to have picked up on the,
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: it wasn't a criticism of conservatism.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: It was a criticism of them and the things that they've tolerated.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why it stung so bad.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I think.
• 21:11
  I don't know how you feel about the argument because you're
• 21:14
  deeper into the Superman weeds.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I, I agree.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, obviously they put some very, um,
• 21:20
  You know,
• 21:20
  they made the Lex Luthor character have a lot of Elon Musk in
• 21:27
  him.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: In this sort of construal,
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: they,
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 21:34
  took some hacking plot points that are reminiscent of the 2016
• 21:38
  campaign and
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: internet troll type stuff.
• 21:41
  But I mean,
• 21:42
  I think that that is all true and that is all,
• 21:44
  like,
• 21:45
  in there.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that, like, I think that a movie...
• 21:50
  that was as schematic as all that,
• 21:53
  um,
• 21:54
  wouldn't have done very well at the box office.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 21:56
  I think all this stuff that conservatives like to say when like
• 22:00
  the Hollywood libs
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: get over their skis,
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: would be applying,
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: but like this movie is a big hit because there's something,
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: cause you know,
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: there's some funny stuff and blah,
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: blah,
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: blah,
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: blah,
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: blah.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh,
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: but because there is something appealing to audiences,
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think it always has been about the,
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: the culture of virtue,
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: and to an extent,
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: yes,
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: virtue signaling,
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: to this,
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: aspirationality,
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: to the fact that,
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: all of us in our lives,
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: I am sure,
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: are kind of selfish,
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: from time to time,
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: have passed people by who we could have helped and not helped them,
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: have thought,
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: what's in it for me about something?
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: But, like, we, most of us know that, like, that's not good, right?
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 22:50
  And that this idea that's,
• 22:51
  like,
• 22:52
  very much a part of,
• 22:53
  like,
• 22:54
  Trumpian political culture.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: That,
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: not only is it,
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: okay to be self-interested,
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: but that,
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: you should be selfish.
• 23:01
  That you should wallow in this kind of cruelty and indifference
• 23:05
  to people.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: That,
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: a really smart move would be to blow up USAID and then cause a bunch of,
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: cosmopolitan libs to complain.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: And then you can, like...
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: put the boot down and be like, that's, you're damn right.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: I did.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: I did cut off all this wasteful foreign aid money.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: I don't give a shit about foreigners, you know?
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: And like, that's, I think part of the big change in politics.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like,
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: I don't,
• 23:35
  I don't love the tick of getting like overly nostalgic about
• 23:39
  the conservative
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: politicians of the past,
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: but like,
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: it is true that Ronald Reagan would not do that.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 23:44
  like a part part of Trump has abandoned like all the all the
• 23:49
  rhetorical flourishes
• 23:50
  that Reagan used that signaled that moral that he had some
• 23:54
  level of moral vanity
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: that he couldn't like let his conservative politics like,
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: a shining city on a hill or morning and you know,
• 24:04
  like like the things he said about actual immigrants were are
• 24:09
  things that Trump
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: would not say,
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: like whether Trump ever got
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: cornered into a position where he had to agree to something virtuous.
• 24:17
  He would not front load the virtuous aspect of what he had done
• 24:23
  to garner accolades
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: from people who,
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: who support him or who might support him.
• 24:28
  Like moral vanity is the only kind of vanity that Republicans
• 24:33
  in the Trump era disparage.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 24:36
  And it's like,
• 24:37
  and it's like moral vanity is it's this weird thing because
• 24:41
  it's like,
• 24:42
  In addition to the fact that we all have these like instincts
• 24:44
  that you're talking
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: about that are unflattering,
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: oftentimes when we do the right thing,
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: we're doing it because like I really actually would rather not do it.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: But I know that if I do it, I will feel better about myself.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'll have a good story to tell about myself.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: And like, is that the best reason to do the right thing?
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: No, but it's it's a good enough one.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: And like like if there was some of that left in Republican politics,
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: we wouldn't be in like a battle of good versus evil every day.
• 25:14
  like wondering what horrible thing was coming down the pike
• 25:17
  next in order to be
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: vain about immorality,
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: which is seemingly like where they've landed.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: And like, I think that that's a bad change.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a real change, even from George W. Bush.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: Right,
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: and I mean,
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: again,
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: to not fall into the trap of like overly idealizing the past,
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: but just sort of explain it.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: if you look at Reagan,
• 25:38
  if you look at Reagan doing something in foreign policy that I
• 25:42
  think was bad,
• 25:44
  A kind of typical thing that he would do is funnel lots of
• 25:49
  money and military
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: supplies to Jonas Savimbi in Angola,
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: who was,
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: in fact,
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: like very corrupt,
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: committing lots of atrocities,
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: etc.,
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: etc.,
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: etc.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: But this was part of Reagan's Cold War politics.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: But then when Reagan would get questions about this,
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: he would say like that it's not true,
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: that like Savimbi was a great guy.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: And he gave these like sappy,
• 26:15
  sort of absurd speeches about how he was like the George
• 26:19
  Washington of his country
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: and like what an amazing person he was.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, George W. Bush had his own sort of versions of this.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: And...
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 26:30
  getting like incredibly sentimental about Hamid Karzai and
• 26:33
  other kinds of people he
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: was backing or like falling for like real sucker plays in Iraq,
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: about how these guys were going to be these great heroes.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: And like that is bad, like bad things happen.
• 26:45
  But,
• 26:45
  you know,
• 26:46
  the old saying is that hypocrisy is the tribute that virtue
• 26:50
  pays to vice.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there is also something to
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: That,
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: right,
• 26:55
  that like what they were saying was that they were supporting
• 26:59
  really good people
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: for really idealistic reasons.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: And a mainstream criticism of them was that that wasn't factually true,
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: that like actually these people were bad and the reasons were more,
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: business oriented or whatever,
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: really it's about oil or something.
• 27:16
  There's a strand of leftist and like I'm trying to not be
• 27:19
  unfair to like the Glenn
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: Greenwalds of the world.
• 27:22
  But there's a strand of leftists who I think felt that it was
• 27:27
  better that Trump was
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: less hypocritical than those guys.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's right.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: That Trump would just be like,
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: The leftists are correct.
• 27:38
  American foreign policy really isn't about helping people are
• 27:41
  doing good in the world.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's just a cynical play to control oil.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: And that's good.
• 27:46
  And I think that we should like do wars for oil in a good way
• 27:50
  and shake people down.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think that they're like,
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: it's if we're going to do wars for oil,
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: we should at least not kid ourselves about what.
• 27:57
  Well,
• 27:57
  but I mean,
• 27:58
  yes,
• 27:58
  but they are thinking that if we can like rid the world of the
• 28:02
  hypocrisy,
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: That will be constructive and that will get us to a better place.
• 28:08
  But I think that the idea was that once the pretense is gone
• 28:13
  and we have to be
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: honest about what we're actually doing in the world,
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: that
• 28:20
  The moral half of the country will be larger than the immoral
• 28:23
  half of the country,
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: and it will force the country politically to become more virtuous.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: That was,
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 28:30
  the idealistic theory behind the let's strip American foreign
• 28:35
  policy of these
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: neocon
• 28:37
  uh fantasies right and just talk about it in terms of of like
• 28:41
  raw self-interest and
• 28:43
  and material wealth and blah blah blah and all the people who
• 28:47
  die as a result of it
• 28:49
  and then let's have votes up or down about whether that's how
• 28:52
  we should be as well
• 28:53
  i i definitely think that in 2015 when some left-wing people
• 28:58
  were like doing
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: pro-trump tweets and stuff like that
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: I do think, like, that's what they were thinking, right?
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: That,
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: this was good,
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: that,
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: Trump was laying bare the truth about American foreign policy and then,
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: a good,
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: progressive thing would win.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that, like...
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: To strike a Superman-y note,
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: I just think that,
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: part of what we've seen with Trump,
• 29:23
  as Trump has been a bigger and bigger force in the culture over
• 29:27
  the past 10 years,
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: is that,
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: that doesn't work.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: That a lot of the people who early on were sort of,
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: ironic,
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: second-order kind of Trump fans,
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: or a little,
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: anti-anti-Trump in this kind of way,
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: a large share of those people have just gotten sucked into the vortex.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 29:46
  Because it's like incredibly tempting to live in this universe
• 29:51
  where there are no
• 29:52
  ethical standards and where you can always just like your reply
• 29:56
  to everybody else
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: can always just be like,
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: you are criticizing me in moralistic terms,
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: which means that you adhere to ethical principles.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: But in fact, you are an imperfect person.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: So fuck you.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's like you.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's like that Matt Bores cartoon, but for everything.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's what's great about turning the war against hypocrisy,
• 30:21
  the war against virtue signaling into like the only value you
• 30:25
  uphold is that it
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: doesn't commit you to anything.
• 30:28
  Right.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like you could be the biggest shitheel in the world.
• 30:33
  And people say this like,
• 30:33
  well,
• 30:34
  what I like about Trump is,
• 30:35
  you know,
• 30:35
  he tells it like it is.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 30:37
  Not like his statements are factually accurate,
• 30:40
  but that he proceeds without pretext.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: And it's very it's very tempting.
• 30:46
  There's something very seductive and like seductive in a like
• 30:50
  really bad way.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 30:52
  it's like the lizard brain versus whatever part of the brain is
• 30:55
  supposed to control
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: our better nature.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's really what American politics is now,
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: is a battle between those two parts of human kind.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: And the more people get into it and they'd be like, well—
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: Now I'm on the side of these like really, really clever kind of people.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: I was I was sending you these were deep cuts.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: But about 25 years ago,
• 31:17
  there was a there was a plot arc in the Superman comics where
• 31:20
  Lex Luthor becomes
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: president of the United States.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the stories,
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: Superman's very distressed about this,
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: but he can't like do anything about it.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: And he goes to talk to his old friend from Smallville, Lana Lang.
• 31:36
  And he's like,
• 31:37
  don't you remember when Luther had you like secretly kidnapped
• 31:41
  and tortured?
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't understand how you can be supporting him for president.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: And she's explaining that like,
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: Luther's picked this guy,
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: Pete Ross,
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: to be his vice president,
• 31:52
  that like Pete's got a lot of really good ideas and it's going
• 31:55
  to move things
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: forward.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: he keeps bumping up against stuff like that,
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: stuff that's reminiscent to me of the Trump era,
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: where not despite the fact that Luther is a scumbag,
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: but because he's a scumbag,
• 32:12
  all kinds of people who are not themselves scumbags originally
• 32:17
  start talking
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: themselves into the idea that,
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: Luther is this incredible cheat code,
• 32:22
  right?
• 32:22
  Who's going to get you through all the problems and
• 32:25
  frustrations and difficulties
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: of democratic politics.
• 32:30
  That if you just hitch your wagon to him,
• 32:32
  you're going to be in on the inside.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then you're going to be able to do whatever you want.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, you think about J.D.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: Vance going from writing articles that are like,
• 32:43
  Trump is a cynical liar who is taking advantage of people's
• 32:47
  insecurities to dupe
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: and exploit them.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: and that's bad,
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: to,
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: Trump,
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: a cynical liar,
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: takes advantage of people's vulnerabilities to,
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: exploit and rule over them,
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: and I want in,
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 33:01
  And it's,
• 33:01
  like,
• 33:03
  everything that Vance does is,
• 33:05
  like,
• 33:06
  just,
• 33:06
  like,
• 33:06
  what is in J.D.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: Vance's articles.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like, all the moves are perfectly choreographed, and it's weird.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: He's both, like,
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: more icky and riskless than Trump is,
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: but also more compelling and professional at it,
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: because Trump is this very intuitive leader,
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: whereas Vance sat back,
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: he watched it all in action.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: He was like, oh, I see what's going on here.
• 33:33
  And when he thought it wasn't going to work,
• 33:36
  he was going to ride the backlash.
• 33:39
  Um,
• 33:39
  but then it did work and now he's like,
• 33:41
  all right,
• 33:41
  I'm just going to do it.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like, this is my, this is my playbook.
• 33:44
  I want to be like one of those guys who's on Luther's little
• 33:48
  ship at the end.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: and at a certain point they're like,
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: wait a minute,
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: boss,
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: isn't the whole earth going to be destroyed by this mega maniacal plot?
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, by then it's too late.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: another thing that,
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: you,
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: you pointed out to me that I,
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: I,
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: I couldn't believe was like,
• 34:06
  Given where we are today was that Luther had to had to divest
• 34:10
  from from LexCorp,
• 34:11
  right?
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because yes, like a president can't have financial conflicts of interest.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 34:16
  it's like a minor plot point is there's just like two panels
• 34:19
  where he has to sell
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: the business and put his money into a blind trust.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 34:23
  whoever wrote that comic 25 years ago or whatever it was
• 34:27
  underestimated how bad
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: things were going to actually get in the United States.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: But Gunn did,
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: too,
• 34:32
  because for all the schemes and conspiracies and scandals that
• 34:36
  he kind of alludes
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: to in this movie,
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: one element missing from it is that,
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: neither Lex Luthor nor the sort of
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: stand-in for the president of the United States,
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: the general or whatever,
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: was involved in a pedophilia ring.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: But like,
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: that would have been too on the nose,
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: when this movie was in production in probably 2023 and 2024,
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 35:02
  But as it turns out,
• 35:04
  if they had embedded that element,
• 35:07
  it would have looked so prescient.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: True, true.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: Oh,
• 35:12
  and then you could have gotten this thing where if it came out
• 35:15
  at exactly the right
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: time,
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: conservatives would have been like,
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: this is an anti-Epstein movie.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: We love it.
• 35:21
  And then two days later,
• 35:22
  they would have been like,
• 35:23
  this is an anti-Epstein movie.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: We hate it.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: to be fair,
• 35:28
  Gunn does show Luther stashing his ex-girlfriends in a
• 35:33
  mysterious pocket universe.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's true.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: And imprisoning them.
• 35:36
  I mean,
• 35:37
  it's not the Epstein Island thing,
• 35:39
  but he's sort of got his own island.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: There's a resemblance.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: They don't fully explore it.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: They're trying to make the content—
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_01: Even as a parent, I get it, but I also don't get it.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like why in America it's more acceptable for children to have like,
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: just like tons of people dying violently,
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: but you've got to like shy away from anything sexual.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: But those are the rules of making movies.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 36:05
  So it's like,
• 36:05
  so it's like the villain can like murder millions of people.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: And like, that's fine for kids.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's PG-13.
• 36:11
  But you couldn't,
• 36:12
  you couldn't get involved with anything,
• 36:13
  anything Epstein adjacent.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: But should we take a break and find out what's next?
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: Well, no, wait, but I have real quick.
• 36:18
  I have one,
• 36:19
  one thought on what,
• 36:20
  on like your,
• 36:20
  your,
• 36:20
  your big download there.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then also one question.
• 36:23
  The thought was,
• 36:25
  I think I agree with basically your whole rundown starting with
• 36:28
  the,
• 36:28
  like,
• 36:29
  like where the anti-anti-Trumpism of the left kind of went from
• 36:34
  maybe having some
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: theoretical grounding to just being,
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: you know.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: And my only reservation is,
• 36:42
  isn't the expression hypocrisy is the tribute vice plays to
• 36:47
  virtue and not the
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: other way around?
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: That could be right.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: That makes more sense.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then my question is,
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: Is Supergirl an actual character in this universe,
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: and is she like a drunk party girl in the comics,
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: or is that a flourish of the movie?
• 37:01
  Supergirl is a concept that has been sort of mooted a lot of
• 37:07
  different times in
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: different iterations.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: There's a version of Supergirl who's like...
• 37:12
  clone of superman there's a version of supergirl who i think is
• 37:17
  like actually an
• 37:17
  artificial intelligence called the matrix um this idea of
• 37:20
  supergirl as superman's
• 37:22
  cousin is a kind of newer one i think i think mostly from the
• 37:26
  tv show that happened
• 37:27
  recently but the idea of supergirl as a as a drunk party girl
• 37:31
  um i'm not familiar
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: with i think that's a that's a james gunn invention um
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: Oh,
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: I should note that in the comics,
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: Guy Gardner,
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: the buffoonish Green Lantern,
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: is a huge buffoon.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: But in his original conception,
• 37:45
  part of him being a buffoon is that he's like very explicitly
• 37:48
  espouses right wing
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: politics.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's like, you know, it's, you know, so they're in there.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's in there.
• 37:59
  Sounds to me like you're saying that Supergirl is an enigma
• 38:01
  that never ages.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: Ah, yes.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: We're alike, you and I. We didn't even talk about the fucking letter.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: On the other side,
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: maybe we'll talk about the letter,
• 38:15
  and also we're going to expand this question about Superman as
• 38:21
  a metaphor to
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: current partisan politics.
• 38:24
  So if you want to hear that part of the conversation,
• 38:26
  you can upgrade to paid at politics.fm.