Latest / Future Christian / Letting Go of Certainty: Kara Root on Faith, Loss, and Deeper Belonging

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Letting Go of Certainty: Kara Root on Faith, Loss, and Deeper Belonging · Future Christian

0:07
>> Loren Richmond: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
0:09
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
0:12
church in the 21st century. At the Future
0:15
Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors and
0:19
other faith leaders for helpful advice and
0:21
practical wisdom to help you and your community of
0:24
faith walk boldly into the future. Whether you're
0:27
a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of
0:30
your faith community, this podcast is designed to
0:33
challenge, inspire, and equip you with the tools
0:36
you need for impactful ministry. And now for a
0:39
little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:43
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
0:46
Loren Richmond Jr. Is in conversation with the
0:49
Reverend Kara K. Root. Kara is the author of the
0:53
Deepest Receiving this Life and A Pilgrimage into
0:57
Letting Go, which she wrote with her husband Andy,
1:00
pastor of Lake Nokomis Presbyterian Church in
1:04
Minneapolis, a Christian community that shapes its
1:06
life around worship, hospitality and Sabbath rest.
1:10
Kara is a trained spiritual director and certified
1:13
educator in the PC usa. Being mom to two intrepid
1:18
young adults and a goofy dog and wife and
1:21
proofreader to a wily theologian spices up her
1:24
vocational calling and keeps her fully immersed in
1:27
life. She has written for Sparkhouse, Working
1:31
Preacher, Christian Century, Christianity Today,
1:35
Faith and Leadership, and more. Cara leads
1:38
retreats and workshops on Sabbath rest, prayer
1:41
practices, and church leadership and
1:43
transformation. Cara and her husband Andy lead
1:47
workshops and speak together through Root
1:49
Creative, Inc. A reminder. Before we start today's
1:53
conversation, please take a moment to subscribe to
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the podcast, leave a review and share Future
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Christian with a friend. Connect with Loren,
2:01
Martha and Future Christian on Instagram. Shoot us
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an email@laurensonatemediaprouh.com with comments,
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questions or ideas for future episodes. Your
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support and voice mean a lot to us, uh, in making
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this podcast possible.
2:25
>> Loren: Hello and welcome to the Future Christian Podcast.
2:27
This is Loren Richmond Jr. And I'm pleased to be
2:30
joined today by the Reverend Kara Root. Hello and
2:33
thanks for being here.
2:34
>> Speaker D: Yeah, thanks for having me.
2:36
>> Loren: Yeah. Looking forward to having this conversation.
2:39
Share if you would just kind of about your
2:41
background, faith journey, what that's looked like
2:43
in the past and what looks like today.
2:46
>> Speaker D: Sure. Yeah. So I am a Presbyterian minister. I've
2:49
been pastoring um, a small congregation in south
2:52
Minneapolis for 17 years. Uh, I did not grow up
2:56
Presbyterian. I grew up, up in uh, a church that
2:58
became a megachurch, um, in evangelicalism and it
3:01
had a, um, ministry family, a kind of well known
3:05
traveling speaker type dad and grew uh, up sort of
3:08
surrounded and immersed in ministry, um, and then
3:11
had in sort of formative young adult years. All of
3:14
that kind of collapsed around me while I, while I
3:17
was in seminary, actually. Um, and so the faith
3:20
that got rebuilt from there was really from the
3:22
ground up and it kind of, um, was, uh. I had a
3:26
sort of face off with God. Like, if there's
3:28
anything further between us here, it's on you, not
3:31
me. And God stepped up to the plate and I kind of
3:35
reoriented the way that I, that I lived my life
3:37
and faith and uh, became, Became a pastor and have
3:41
been, um, doing that ever since. But when the
3:46
structure that had sort of held my family and
3:49
faith together crumbled, um, I realized how much I
3:53
had sort of equated my, My dad and God and uh, you
3:58
know, sort of thought that there were things that
4:00
were never up for grabs that ended up not being
4:04
reliable. And it, it became a, A kind of situation
4:07
between God and me, um, came to a head, actually.
4:10
When. Do you want to hear more about that? Or. I
4:13
mean, I don't. Yeah, right. It came, I, it came to
4:17
a head when my, um, my sister was in a, is in a
4:20
very charismatic, uh, movement. And this was in
4:23
the, you know, the time of the Toronto Blessing
4:26
and these things were sort of happening. And she,
4:28
I was living in LA at the time and she called me
4:31
and said that people at her Bible study had gotten
4:33
gold teeth. And you know, I just, I didn't really
4:36
know what to do with this. And then I got on the
4:38
road to go to an appointment and drove past like
4:42
the most horrific car wreck I'd ever witnessed.
4:45
And they were, um, body bags and blood. And I just
4:49
kind of had something inside me broke. And I sort
4:51
of said to God, like, I'm out. You can keep your
4:53
gold teeth. Like if you're not in these places of
4:56
suffering and uh, I'm not, I don't want anything
4:59
to do with you. Um, and then shortly thereafter, I
5:03
was awarded a parish pulpit fellowship for
5:06
commitment to parish ministry and excellence in
5:08
preaching. And it felt like a total hypocrisy
5:11
thing. But what it allowed was for me to step out
5:14
of my life and to, um, be on this literally
5:17
journey with God. My husband and I were married
5:20
just a year and we went west around the entire
5:23
world. Um, someone else had paid for me to sort of
5:27
supplement what I'd been learning in seminary
5:29
with, uh, what I felt like my faith needed. And I
5:32
was stuck alone with God, like on the road. Um,
5:35
and just God sort of put everything back together
5:38
in a different shape inside me. Um, and then I
5:41
came back and began preparing to be a pastor.
5:46
>> Loren: Well, thank you for sharing all that, that's a
5:48
really powerful story. I, uh, want to ask about
5:52
this if that's okay, because I was thinking about
5:55
this like in my own context. My wife and I were
5:59
married very young. Like I was 21, almost 22. She
6:03
was 20. We grew up in very conservative Christian
6:07
circles. So that was just the thing you do. But I
6:10
think for me, like, there was this element of
6:12
like, looking back. I think I, uh, immediately got
6:16
a ministry job 2,000 miles away from family. So we
6:20
were forced to figure it out in our relationship.
6:24
And certainly there's lots of precedent for that
6:28
not working out. But I was thinking about the
6:31
example of this book that we're going to talk
6:34
about is Pilgrimage. And not certainly a
6:36
pilgrimage per se, but I saw an example of the LDs
6:40
the two year mission and how that's so formative
6:43
and foundational in your faith. And I don't know
6:46
if you would think of that trip as, you know, a
6:49
pilgrimage or a mission. But I wonder, like, how
6:53
do you think that time away was formative,
6:57
impacted your relationship with yourself, with
7:01
God, with your husband?
7:04
>> Speaker D: Yeah, it was a significant impact. And we had a
7:08
wonderful professor in seminary, um, Ray Anderson,
7:11
who used to say, you can only know God's will in
7:13
hindsight. And so in hindsight, it was a
7:17
pilgrimage. I mean, I had no idea I was going on a
7:19
pilgrimage. I was, um, I was angry and I was spent
7:24
and I didn't know what was next. And I, I didn't
7:27
even feel like I was, you know, in all honesty and
7:30
integrity, doing what the purpose of this, this
7:32
gift of money was for, because I didn't feel
7:36
committed to parish ministry. I didn't even feel
7:39
committed to God at that moment. Um, uh, but I
7:43
knew that, you know, I never doubted that God was
7:46
real. I just at the time was doubting that God was
7:49
good, frankly. Um, and didn't know what my
7:53
relationship with God was gonna be like. And so
7:55
what was lovely about being pulled completely out
7:57
of our lives. And this is in 2000, 2001. And so
8:01
literally like you didn't have a cell phone. Like
8:04
we maybe had a flip phone for emergencies, but
8:06
you'd go to an Internet cafe and plug in to talk
8:09
to family. So we were really in a lot of ways off
8:12
the grid. Um, and my husband was doing a, another
8:16
degree at the time and so he was sort of self
8:20
booked from nine to five every day. And I was on
8:23
my own. We went west. So we started in Australia.
8:25
And for three months I was rattling around
8:28
Australia, like journaling and having to Be with
8:31
God. Um, and I did meet with an Australian past. I
8:35
met with a group of Australian pastors there and
8:37
was part of a course where they were exploring
8:40
what does it mean to be, um, an authentic
8:42
Australian Christ? Because so much of their faith
8:45
had been imported from America and, um, England.
8:49
And as they're asking these questions here, I am
8:53
like an American pulled out of my context, um, now
8:56
seeing, what is it? How has my faith been shaped
8:58
by being an American? Um, we were also there
9:01
during the election with the hanging chads, you
9:04
know, so there was like, seeing America, seeing
9:07
America from another viewpoint in that time. Um,
9:11
so that was the first base was just sort of like.
9:13
It really felt like it was a sifting through all
9:17
that I had been through and reconnect, like God
9:19
sort of saying to me, I am the God who has been
9:22
with you through this and this and this and this.
9:24
And then also all of the coursework of seminary.
9:26
I'm the God that you studied here. I'm the God
9:28
that you've learned about here. Um, and then from
9:30
there we went to, uh, Europe, and my husband is a
9:34
Bonhoeffer scholar. So we were traveling all of
9:37
sort of the Bart and Bonhoeffer, uh, sites which
9:40
at the time, nothing had been preserved in that
9:42
way yet. It was, it was just, you know, like the
9:46
concentration camp where he was killed was
9:48
literally just this, like, abandoned site at the
9:51
time. Um, and so that journey of saying, like,
9:55
the. The people that had formed our thinking and
9:58
our faith, like, we kind of journeyed through
10:00
that, um, in Europe. We went to the Middle east,
10:02
we did a Israel, ah, sort of pilgrimage, um, in
10:06
the Middle east. And then we ended back on the.
10:10
The east coast of the US and by the time we came
10:12
back, I was clear about a few things. I was clear
10:14
that, like, my life was called to serve the
10:18
church, um, that like, as much as I had felt hurt
10:22
by the church, um, I loved the church. And, and
10:26
there's not. There's not a sense that I could be
10:29
anything other than part of it. And then also that
10:32
I needed a form of leadership and ministry that
10:36
was rigorous and had a ton of oversight and hard
10:40
because I came from this, like, you know,
10:43
evangelical sense of, like, the. The. The upfront
10:46
cowboy leaders that, you know, had this dynamic
10:50
personality. And. But there wasn't a, uh, There
10:52
wasn't a lot of accountability. There wasn't a lot
10:55
of sense, even in my own church growing up, of
10:58
our. Our connection to the church, of. Of history.
11:01
There was, you know, these hour and a half
11:03
wonderful exegetical sermons and 45 minutes of
11:07
wonderful singing. But there wasn't. It was like
11:09
the Bible and then us. And I needed to feel all of
11:13
the people who had gone before and the structures
11:15
that had been there and the questions that had
11:17
already been asked over and over by the people of
11:21
our legacy, of our faith. So I went into the, um,
11:24
seminary denominational studies office and they
11:27
had like a three ring binder of, um, different
11:30
denominations and like the Cliffs Notes. And I, I
11:34
flipped through and was like, eliminated all the
11:36
ones that didn't ordain women, right? And then,
11:39
uh, you know, the ones that could just like move
11:41
you anywhere. Um, but really what I was looking
11:44
for, I was looking for. I was looking for reformed
11:50
faith because that's what we had really kind of
11:53
sunk into with this, um, Bart and Bonhoeffer
11:56
stuff. And I was looking for a really hard
11:58
ordination process and a lot of oversight. And I
12:02
landed on the Presbyterians. So that's, that's,
12:05
um. So my, my journey to be ordained actually was
12:09
seven years beyond seminary because I had to go
12:12
back and take some coursework. I had to do a cpe.
12:14
I had to do all these things in the process. But I
12:17
was really grateful for that because I think what
12:19
I came out of that saying is like, I am, um, I am
12:22
not, you know, capable of doing this out here on
12:25
my own if this is all going to be up to me. And I
12:27
actually refuse. So when I finally got into
12:31
pastoral leadership, solo pastoring, it was like,
12:34
listen, this is about Jesus and seeking Christ and
12:38
helping each other do that. And if it's ever about
12:40
anything else, I'm done. Like, I am not for
12:43
maintaining the institution. I am not. There are
12:45
people who are good at that stuff. I care zero
12:48
about that. So I had a real clarity by that point.
12:53
>> Loren: Well, thank you so much for sharing all that. Uh,
12:56
I'm laughing about. We're kind of dating ourselves
13:00
with this, but I'm laughing about that 2000
13:02
election. Uh, I can say I was in college. Um, but
13:07
I'm remembering that time though, because
13:09
interestingly enough, I had someone on my dorm, it
13:12
was a Baptist college who was from Australia. So
13:16
similarly to you, uh, him being an Australian was
13:20
like my first kind of like, oh, the American view
13:23
is not just like standard, because I remember that
13:26
was the Olympics that were in Australia, and if
13:29
you were there for those or not. Um, but it was in
13:33
that same kind of summer, I think. But he was like
13:35
rooting for Australians to win the Olympic medals.
13:38
>> Martha Tatarnic: I'm like, what?
13:40
>> Loren: Why would anyone not be unabashedly American.
13:44
Anyway, um, thanks for sharing all that. So this
13:48
is so much, so good because we've already kind of
13:50
leaned into some of the themes of the book. So
13:53
Kara is, along with her husband, Nandra Root, who
13:57
has been a past guest, the author of A Pilgrimage
14:00
into Letting Go, Helping Parents and Pastors
14:03
Embrace the Uncontrollable. So I want to ask this
14:08
to start off when we talk about the book. Like, at
14:11
first glance, this looks like a parenting book.
14:13
And it seems like parenting books have kind of
14:16
sort of become the rage again in, especially in
14:19
like, evangelical cultures. For good reason. Like
14:22
I just had on Kelsey McGinnis, who wrote a book on
14:26
parenting. And you know, in her book, technically
14:32
I haven't read the book, but I, um. From the
14:36
conversation around her book, we talked about
14:37
something else. Certainly it's this idea of like,
14:40
control, like being a, uh, do these things and you
14:45
control the outcomes of your kids. And I suppose
14:50
I'm getting already quite into the main content
14:52
here, but why was this idea of control so integral
14:58
into the theme of this book?
15:01
>> Speaker D: Yeah, well, it sort of happened inside out than
15:05
that. Like, we didn't go into this experience with
15:09
control on our mind really at all. Except that,
15:12
you know, Andy's done a lot of work around Hartmut
15:15
Rosa. And you know, he's the work. He's done with
15:18
resonance and uncontrollability. So, you know,
15:20
we're swimming in the waters of that kind of
15:22
thinking, but it certainly wasn't on our radar.
15:25
Um, what happened is we went on a. We went on a
15:28
walking trip with our teenagers and like, yeah.
15:31
Then all of a sudden you're immediately confronted
15:34
with all of the. Of the instincts and drives to
15:37
want to control the experience, for them to want
15:40
to control where their lives are going to. You
15:43
know, I mean, we have different forms of how that
15:46
comes out in, in the immediate dynamics. You know,
15:49
Andy's like, even though we're not. We're just
15:51
walking, there's no schedule, we don't have a
15:52
guide or anything like that. But he's like,
15:54
wanting to stay on track. So he. It's coming out
15:56
for him in that way and for me it's coming out.
15:58
And like, I want us to like, deeply experience
16:01
nature and one another and let's have good
16:03
conversations. And you know, so we're just like
16:05
all of a sudden it's like a mirror in our face how
16:08
much. Just even in the micro dynamics with our
16:11
kids, we're always trying to shape some outcome
16:14
instead of simply being present with Them and how
16:17
hard it is to simply be present. That's such a
16:19
vulnerable thing.
16:21
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. So you talk about the importance of
16:25
listening and watching as, uh, formative
16:27
practices. I gotta write down that note.
16:30
Vulnerability of presence. Um, talk more about
16:35
what that looks like and why that matters.
16:39
>> Speaker D: Yeah. Like with kids or congregations or God. I
16:43
mean, what specifically are you asking?
16:45
>> Loren: Well, gosh, I mean, I think we should say that, I
16:48
suppose. Right. Because so much of this book is
16:50
multifaceted in that you talk about, you know,
16:54
control in parenthood, control in congregations.
16:58
So, I mean, feel free to answer that how you want
17:01
to approach it best.
17:03
>> Speaker D: Yeah. So, um, listening and watching are, uh. Boy,
17:08
those are tough because you can't control the
17:11
outcome of either one of those. All you can
17:13
control in either one of those is your own stance
17:15
of availability. Um, and to me, that is the most
17:19
faithful practice. And I think, ironically, what
17:23
we don't recognize in all of our, um, parenting
17:26
and pastoring books, all of the strategies, I
17:28
mean, the bajillion strategies that are out there,
17:30
to be a good parent, to be a good pastor, to make
17:33
these experiences happen for people, to have the
17:36
outcomes you want when we actually share the
17:39
stories or, uh, look at our own lives in past.
17:41
During your parenting, the moments where we feel
17:44
like something happened was when we weren't in
17:47
control. It was when we were watching or we were
17:49
listening and we were prompted to respond. So we
17:52
were connecting with one another in a way that we
17:55
maybe couldn't have even anticipated as a
17:58
possibility on the front end. And if we're so
18:01
geared towards trying to shape the outcome, we
18:04
actually pull ourselves out of even the
18:07
possibility of having those encounters we're so
18:09
deeply longing for.
18:13
>> Loren: Yeah, I mean, uh, it's interesting because again,
18:15
these things are both very much true, whether it's
18:18
in church or parenting. As you mentioned, from
18:23
your background in evangelical Christianity, I
18:28
mean, I'm just thinking of, like, so many churches
18:30
have, like, this pathway, like this described
18:34
pathway of what it looks like to get deeper into
18:37
the faith and deeper into the engagement in the
18:40
church. And I think to some extent, like, these
18:42
are. I wouldn't say they're bad things. Um,
18:45
certainly in parenting, my goodness, like, we have
18:48
so much prescription about how to direct outcomes.
18:55
Um, I'm thinking about this, Kara, like you
18:58
mentioned, having some CPE experience for those
19:01
unfamiliar clinical pastoral education. One of my
19:05
jobs right now is part time as a hospital
19:06
chaplain. And I feel like that's what's. So
19:09
whenever I'm in a room with a patient or even
19:12
interacting with Staff, I feel like that's what's
19:15
so countercultural in that work is that I, I am
19:19
there to listen, I'm there to watch, I'm there to
19:22
respond. And it's so countercultural to the, the
19:26
established norms of a, uh, hospital setting for
19:29
good reason. Right. Like we want the doctor and
19:31
the medical staff to have some source of control,
19:35
to have some hope for outcomes.
19:38
>> Speaker D: Yeah, yeah.
19:39
>> Loren: What strikes you there?
19:41
>> Speaker D: Well, the difference in, in roles there is like
19:45
your job in that space is actually to be a conduit
19:48
of the Holy Spirit. I mean your job is to trust
19:51
that God is real and God is here and that when
19:54
human beings are human beings with each other,
19:57
when we are with and for one another, Jesus is
20:00
there. And so they have to be competent and
20:04
expertise and calmness, uh, and you know, they
20:09
have a task to accomplish. You are simply there
20:12
really to hold open space for encounter between
20:15
people, knowing that God is like there and wanting
20:19
to um, care for people. And so that it is a very
20:23
different role. And I would say like such a super
20:26
essential role in situations like that where
20:29
people are in health crises or whatever else.
20:32
Like, you know, it maintains humanity for people
20:37
who can suddenly feel like just an illness or an
20:39
accident or a loss or whatever else, um, for
20:43
someone to see them, to simply see them and hear
20:46
them. And that's how God encounters us.
20:50
>> Loren: Well, let me bring this back to the book then
20:52
because it's interesting that you use that
20:54
language because that's often my prayer when I'm
20:56
driving into the hospital. God may be a vessel of
21:01
your spirit. I think about so much of the uh,
21:07
coaching and especially in, in clergy roles is
21:11
about like using business practices, management
21:16
theory of like, better strategy, better practices.
21:21
Like yeah,
21:25
>> Speaker D: and this, I mean we don't want to be like a poorly
21:28
run organization. I mean certainly there's a place
21:30
for like, like do a good job with like the tasks
21:35
of running an organization. That's not, I mean
21:37
this is not to undermine that in any way. Um, it
21:41
is to say like we, we. So okay, so human beings
21:46
um, are prone to sin and idolatry. You know,
21:49
that's just how we are. Every generation has our
21:53
own version of that. And there's going to be ways
21:56
that we think we're God, there's going to be ways
21:58
that we look at other things as God that aren't
22:00
God. And ah, control is definitely a very sort of
22:05
postmodern tool that we've gotten really good at.
22:08
I mean we've gotten so good at it that like I'm
22:10
sitting in a nine by, you know, five little like,
22:16
house in the backyard where it is. It is like 10
22:19
below zero outside there, and I am toasty warm.
22:22
Because we know how to control things like
22:25
climate. I mean, like, we're so. It's not like
22:28
we're, you know, idiots for thinking that control
22:31
is possible. It's that we've sort of put all our
22:34
eggs in this basket, uh, and made it our strategy.
22:37
And I think one of the things that was, like, most
22:40
meaningful for me truly on this pilgrimage, after
22:43
we finished the whole walk, which. The final part
22:47
of this walk is, um, to Lindisfarne, the holy
22:51
island. And you have to time it so that you walk
22:54
across the mud flats when the tide is out so that
22:57
you don't, um, drown, I guess. Um, and, ah, in
23:02
fact, there are these just tall posts that mark
23:05
the Pilgrim's Way. And they have platforms, you
23:08
know, 50ft up on them. Because if you end up doing
23:11
it wrong and you're out there when the tide comes
23:13
back, and you're just supposed to climb the ladder
23:14
and sit up there and wait. And they're like, we'll
23:17
send a boat for you, but it will cost you several
23:19
thousand dollars or you can just spend the night
23:21
and wait for the tide to go next day. So there is
23:24
this like, sort of the, uh. The hilarity of it is
23:28
you're surrendering your control to just, like
23:30
nature as you're making this final journey, while
23:33
there is a causeway of cars, of tourists, like,
23:36
going over to get their ice cream cone and look at
23:37
the castle and drive back and you're like,
23:39
schlepping along in this mud. But so we get to
23:44
this island and it is just, uh, you know, when the
23:49
tide goes back out, all the cars have to leave so
23:51
that the causeway isn't flooded. And then all of a
23:53
sudden it's quiet. And then you can feel sort of
23:56
the history of the hol of this place. And we went
24:00
to evening prayer in this tiny house, this tiny
24:03
church, which was built by St Aidan in 635. So
24:07
then you're like, feeling this sense of, oh, man,
24:10
I. I am existing in this story that goes beyond
24:14
really even how my imagination can grasp time. Um,
24:18
and at the back, back wall of this little church
24:21
is this picture of calligraphy, uh, names that
24:26
start 6:35 Saint Aidan. And it's every bishop and
24:30
vicar and, you know, leader of this congregation
24:33
from 6:35 to today. And it's like this list. And I
24:38
just. I felt overwhelmed by this, the sort of the
24:42
beauty of like, this is a long story that we're
24:45
part of. And then I notice, you know, a quarter of
24:48
the way, not even that there's like a 200 year
24:52
gap, a 300 year gap there where nobody's in charge
24:57
because the island was raided by Viking raiders
24:59
and the monks like dug up Cuthbert's body and fled
25:02
and like nobody was there. And then they came back
25:05
and kept going. And so I, I uh, just stood there
25:07
looking at it, thinking the entire history of my
25:10
nation can fit in that hole. And um, the story of
25:15
God keeps going. So.
25:16
>> Loren: Yeah.
25:17
>> Speaker D: So what do I think my job is again? Because it's
25:21
not what I think it is. If it's ever about like
25:23
saving the church or even leading the church, that
25:26
is not my job. My job is to be part of this story
25:29
that's a lot longer than me. To watch for what God
25:31
is doing now and to faithfully participate in
25:34
that.
25:36
>> Loren: Yeah, I love it. I love it. You know, I'm thinking
25:38
about a few different things I wanted to ask you
25:42
about how control and achievement go hand in hand.
25:49
How, you know, if we're focused, uh, how they can
25:51
reinforce one another and I suppose sabotage. I
25:56
don't know if that's the right word. But yeah.
25:58
Talk more about how those two interact.
26:02
>> Speaker D: Well, I think it's ah, you know, as we're talking
26:04
about all these parenting and pastoring and
26:06
leadership sort of books. I, um, mean achievement
26:09
is, Achievement is supposedly the goal of being
26:16
human or being an organization or whatever. And I
26:20
don't actually know that that that's really the
26:21
goal. But I mean, control is the means of that.
26:24
You can't achieve anything if you're out of
26:26
control and if you're, you know, unreliable and
26:29
you're, you know, whatever else. And so we, we've
26:31
gotten to the point now where we're controlling so
26:33
much. We're like, I, I, you know, even on that
26:35
walk, I'm counting my steps. I'm. Yeah, you know,
26:38
we're, we're measuring our sleep, we're optimizing
26:41
our time. We're trying to be, we, this world we're
26:46
living in now is, puts efficiency as our uh, as
26:50
our God a lot of times. Um, and the way of God in
26:54
the way of a pilgrimage and the way of our faith
26:57
is very inefficient. I mean when you're in the
27:00
hospital and people are racing around, you know,
27:03
the seconds matter when you plug in this machine
27:05
and you've practiced doing all these sorts of
27:07
things and there you are Just inefficiently
27:10
holding somebody's hand because the work of God is
27:14
a slow present work and, and it never ends. Um, so
27:19
it, I think, I think maybe I don't even know how
27:23
you put those two words into the same story. Like,
27:29
like control. Control goes in the pot. In the pot
27:31
with achievement. Yes, those belong together. I
27:35
just don't know if that's our story as, as a
27:37
people of faith.
27:40
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah. I want to talk about, I wanted to talk
27:43
about. Because I can't remember I read your book
27:47
either. I think immediately before reading the
27:50
Jonathan Haidt book that's been all the rage in
27:53
the last couple years. The anxious generation.
27:57
Right. And it's funny, my daughter's middle school
28:01
was handing out free books and I can't resist a
28:04
free book. So I'm like, sure, uh, I'll read it.
28:08
But it struck me like so much of the book was just
28:11
about like how to control, you know, how to
28:16
control your kids behaviors. And I think having
28:20
just read your book, perhaps like I just was again
28:24
thinking about like the idea of y' all talk about
28:27
it in your book. The idea of rightly ordered
28:30
desire. Y' all talk a little bit about the. I
28:34
don't know if you remember, if you talk about
28:35
screen time or I think you make the illustration
28:37
of like the phone being like the mall of like 20,
28:40
30 years ago. How do you think social media shapes
28:48
desire? And there's this idea of I don't know if.
28:55
Yeah, I'm not sure how even how that asks the
28:57
question, but suddenly I would think as a parent I
28:59
want to control my kids behavior to some extent.
29:03
But also having grown up in very strict Christian
29:07
uh, circles, I know control, it's not going to
29:11
have the desired outcomes I want.
29:13
>> Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. Well, and it, and I mean the book is a
29:16
great. I haven't read his book but I've seen
29:19
interviews and read some articles and I think it's
29:21
a great example of how like the strategy we have
29:24
to meet a very real problem is that we just keep
29:27
grabbing back for control. So he's naming a very
29:29
real problem. Um, and it's super important to be
29:33
talking about what he's naming and then you're
29:35
asking the question of like does, does just trying
29:38
to control it more actually address that problem
29:42
or solve that problem.
29:43
>> Loren: Yeah, um, yeah.
29:44
>> Speaker D: And I think that that's. So there's, there's a
29:47
couple elements to this and one of them is that
29:49
the, the way that social media disconnects us from
29:52
our true humanity. Um, and Our and our presence in
29:55
the physical, you know, bodies, lives,
29:59
relationships that we are given as human beings
30:02
and, and puts us completely into this, like,
30:04
isolated. I get to decide and curate my own
30:08
identity and put it out there. And it's just, you
30:11
know, I'm looking at everybody else's and thinking
30:13
that must be the totality of who they are and they
30:15
seem so much better than me. And it like, puts us
30:17
in this whole mindset that is the opposite of the
30:21
way of God, which is comparison and fear and um,
30:25
urgency and all the rest of it, which pulls us out
30:29
of presence and being in our lives with one
30:31
another. And so I think maybe when we talk about
30:34
how do we deal with phones and social media and
30:37
everything else with our kids, it's about how do I
30:40
come back into that relationship and stay in that
30:42
relationship with them and how are we assessing
30:45
together? I know for me, I'm actually trying so
30:49
hard to not be on any social media because it's
30:52
corrosive to my spirit. Um, and I can talk about
30:55
that with my kids and they can see that impact on
30:58
me. Um, and so those sorts of connections and
31:02
relationships that say this is the world we live
31:03
in, it's not going to be solved just because I
31:06
don't let you have a phone until 6 and then I tell
31:08
you, don't ever go on it. I mean, that's not going
31:10
to solve anything. Um, but, but in the midst of
31:14
these kinds of pressures, God is still God. We are
31:17
still called to see and love our neighbor. Our
31:19
being is still not held independently. It's
31:22
interdependently. And if, you know, where are the
31:25
places that we're forgetting that and living the
31:28
opposite ways and how can we support each other to
31:31
come back into the true, true humanity?
31:35
>> Loren: Yeah, I wonder, like, I wonder this, like, what do
31:38
you think is like, the comparison in church
31:41
context to like, social media? Like the, or the
31:44
phones, bugaboo, like that. Especially maybe in
31:47
the mainline where we're like, if we can just
31:49
solve this, like, everything will be okay.
31:54
>> Speaker D: Well, I think it's also social media. I mean,
32:00
truly, I think we're just, we're so immersed in
32:02
this culture that has defined, uh, life in a
32:05
particular way. And so the church is like, how do
32:07
we be more, you know, relevant and cool and hip?
32:11
How do we curate our identity so people want to
32:12
come? How do we, I mean, we describe in the book
32:15
that both as, as pastors and as parents, this,
32:18
this mindset towards growth, you know, bigger,
32:21
better, more, and, and that with our kids too it's
32:24
this sort of panic. If we don't give them enough
32:26
resources, you know, for their future, they're
32:29
going to fall behind. And so there's always this
32:32
attempt to, to go faster and harder and bigger and
32:35
better. And I church, I mean, my church about two
32:40
years ago or so just said, we're done with social
32:42
media. It's bad for us, it's bad for the world.
32:45
Um, you know, that we're going to try to just
32:47
faithfully be who God's calling us to be. And it
32:50
doesn't matter what's happening in this platform.
32:53
That is, you know, unreal. Uh, and actually this
32:57
last Advent, we practiced putting our phones away.
33:02
Every time we gathered for worship. We had little
33:04
bags in the pews and we did a liturgy. And at the
33:06
beginning of the worship, everybody put their
33:08
phone away. And then at the end of worship,
33:09
everybody took their phone back out. Um, and so
33:12
practicing together as a community, how do we
33:14
resist these things that try to define our lives
33:16
that we know aren't actually helping us?
33:21
>> Loren: Yeah, it reminds me of like a comedy club I've, My
33:24
wife and I have gone to where they make you put
33:25
your phones in this bag, you know, so you don't
33:28
record. So people, people can survive that for a
33:30
short time. So it's not, uh, completely
33:33
unprecedented. It's interesting, though, you talk
33:36
about social media and getting off social media. I
33:39
mean, I think there is this, this, this idea of
33:42
being that countercultural that I'm fascinated by
33:46
that, uh, how you have been able to make that work
33:49
and, uh, you know, that folks can trust that.
33:53
Gosh, like, somehow the message can still get out.
33:55
Right. Without social media.
33:57
>> Speaker D: Well, that question, to me, I mean, even that
33:59
question itself is. I'm telling myself that
34:03
without social media, the message of what God is
34:06
doing through our church community will not reach
34:09
people. I mean, uh, like when you start to dig
34:12
into it, I'm telling myself it is up to me to
34:15
bring about the work of God through our
34:17
congregation. And that's just like as soon as
34:20
those things sort of rise up. And this is
34:22
something my church has gotten good at doing
34:23
because we call it the way of fear in the way of
34:25
God. And we've started to learn how to catch
34:28
ourselves in the way of fear. And that's like way
34:30
of fear language, right? So then we go, okay, so
34:33
how do I come back to the way of God? No, this is
34:35
God's church. This is God's work that God's doing
34:37
in and through us. You know, God. God will lead us
34:40
into the ways that we're meant to be, uh, led and
34:44
it's not up to us. Um, and I kind of feel in some
34:47
ways like it's kind of none of my business what
34:50
God wants to, like, I'm just going to try to
34:51
faithfully and obediently live this calling and
34:54
let God take care of who God brings and how God
34:57
brings things about. Uh, because I, that's above
35:00
my pay grade.
35:02
>> Loren: I think that's a helpful framework, the way of
35:05
fear versus the way of God. Because I could
35:07
imagine, and you know, push back if you want, but
35:10
I could imagine a church deciding like, hey, we're
35:13
going to go after this, we're going to like,
35:15
effort, this really innovative or heck, even
35:18
social media thing, I don't know. But it's. If
35:22
they define it versus if they can discern, I guess
35:25
is what I'm trying to say. Are they in the way of
35:27
fear or the way of God? So I can imagine that
35:30
being a very helpful framework, you know, because
35:32
we're talking around like, when is technology or
35:35
growth or whatever, you know, modern tools.
35:38
>> Speaker D: Well, and that's, that's exactly right. As soon as
35:40
you say, oh, any use of social media is bad, then
35:44
I'm like, then you're still. Then you're back in
35:45
the way of fear, right? You're back in comparison.
35:47
And so the way we sort of define it is to say the
35:51
way of fear says, um, that everything starts with
35:54
me and it's about preserving, protecting,
35:57
promoting me. And, uh, there's not enough to go
36:01
around. And so if some people have some, then
36:04
others don't. And that includes things like
36:06
respect and, um, rest, uh, that it's always a
36:11
competition. And the people we're in this, uh,
36:14
journey with are like out to get us or we need to
36:16
be out to get them. And it's this, uh, constantly
36:19
urgent, um, anxious reality. The way of God says
36:25
it all begins in God's abundance and love and care
36:28
and there is enough for all. And if we share, uh,
36:32
we actually find that, that things multiply and
36:35
we're meant to journey alongside one another, um,
36:37
and to, to be generous because God, uh, provides
36:41
and we're meant to rest so that we don't forget
36:43
that we're not God and you know, that all these
36:46
other things aren't God. And we're meant to love
36:49
and serve our neighbor. And so when those are real
36:51
clear for us, um, we, uh, we're calling each other
36:55
out all the time. I have, I have congregants call
36:58
me out, um, I mean, we say rest. Resting is
37:02
practicing ah, trust and worrying is practicing
37:05
fear. And so when they hear me say, for example,
37:09
oh, I'm so I'm so anxious about going on vacation
37:12
when so and so is sick and near death, they say,
37:15
what are you talking about? Resting is practicing
37:17
trust. And worrying is practicing fear. We got
37:20
them. You're supposed to go on vacation now. I
37:22
mean, so there's ways of, like, helping each other
37:24
live in this kingdom of God. Reality that is the
37:26
most true thing that holds all of us in our
37:29
belonging to God and each other. Instead of all
37:31
the layers we've put up on top that. That make it
37:34
feel like, um, we gotta figure this out. Like,
37:37
that is like as soon as things start to have that
37:39
urgency about it, my, my leadership is like, whoa.
37:43
In fact, here's an example of that. It's this
37:46
scrappy little congregation. It's been around for
37:48
a hundred years. It was, you know, one of these
37:50
big churches in the 50s and 60s. But by the time I
37:53
joined them, um, 17 years ago was down to like 30
37:55
people. And we started to kind of make this mental
37:59
shift. They had faced, uh, death and said, no, we
38:02
think God has something else for us. We're ready.
38:04
That. And we started to make this shift to say,
38:07
what is God already doing here? Um, and how do we
38:10
just really join that? And, uh, one of the areas
38:13
where they had always lived in scarcity was in
38:16
finances. I mean, this is church had been spending
38:18
down its endowment. And every, every year they
38:21
would say, we have, we only have like two years
38:23
left. Um, but, you know, they've been saying that
38:26
for 40 years because somebody would die or the
38:29
stock market would do well or whatever. And they
38:32
were like, nope, we're supposed to keep going. So
38:35
we reached this point a few years into this shift,
38:38
uh, in our life of discernment, where we were
38:41
really low, like a month, not years left of money.
38:45
And they, the leadership team all of a sudden
38:49
said, oh my gosh, I'm feel we're feeling anxious.
38:52
And that means we're living in fear and we're
38:55
acting like it's the money that that sustains us,
38:58
not God. So they voted to start giving away 10% of
39:01
our money right off the top. Because we were
39:04
putting, wow, we were putting our faith in money
39:07
instead of God. And I mean, not even a month into
39:10
doing this, uh, somebody pulled up to the front of
39:13
the church, came inside and said, hi, I'm Pastor
39:16
Antonio. And the Holy Spirit told me to stop and
39:18
ask if our congregation could meet in your space.
39:21
And they began meeting in our space and paying us.
39:24
Us just what we were giving away. And so this sort
39:28
of, this sort of living in this trust actually
39:31
reshapes everything because we're really acting
39:35
like God's real. I mean that I think most if it's
39:39
going to boil down to something in control. It's
39:41
that we, we believe God's real, but we sure don't
39:44
act like it. We think that it's up to us.
39:48
>> Loren: Oh my goodness. Carr, that story is powerful. Wow.
39:55
I want to talk about. Because something that hit
39:58
me in the book, something that still resonates
40:00
with me is the story of Saint. Saint Aiden. Is
40:04
that right?
40:05
>> Speaker D: Is it Saint Cuthbert?
40:06
>> Loren: Uh, I just. Oh no, the.
40:08
>> Speaker D: The church.
40:09
>> Loren: The church that was 6:36:35. Okay.
40:13
>> Speaker D: Yeah.
40:16
>> Loren: Because I feel like there's so much comparison
40:17
both in church, in pastoring and in parenting of
40:21
like, uh, I don't know what's going to happen.
40:26
Like, I think about this as a parent, like, um, as
40:31
I'm recording this, like my daughter just uh, went
40:34
to the first night of confirmation and like, you
40:36
know, I want, you know, I want certain outcomes to
40:40
happen. Right.
40:42
>> Speaker D: Yeah,
40:44
>> Loren: certainly, um, in and with my kids, faith with my
40:50
family as they grow up, um, I'm not leading a
40:53
church right now, but certainly I've been in those
40:55
roles where it's like, boy, I want outcomes to
40:58
happen. And man, I think that story of the St.
41:01
Aidan Church of 300 years of we don't know what's
41:05
happening. So I mean there's so much powerful
41:09
story here, powerful stuff here. But uh, I'm
41:11
thinking two ways and respond how you want, but
41:14
one, certainly with parenting of having to trust
41:16
that God is at work. I think also like when you
41:20
think about especially the American mainline or
41:23
even American church more broadly, like decline
41:26
and like having to trust that God is still at
41:29
work.
41:34
>> Speaker D: Yeah. Yes. True to all that. Um, the practices
41:41
that help you to
41:42
>> Loren: tell me more because I just can't. It seems so,
41:45
so, so ridiculous to trust that I guess is what
41:48
I'm saying.
41:49
>> Speaker D: Yeah. Well, let me give you a, ah, a story just
41:52
from my week. Like, let me give you an example of
41:55
what, I don't know, a glimpse into this kind of
41:59
stuff. So like I said, I'm in. I. My
42:01
congregation's in South Minneapolis, which, you
42:03
know, Minneapolis is all over the news right now.
42:05
Right. So we're living in a very, huh, intense
42:08
time. Um, my leadership team, uh, had our
42:11
beginning of the year discernment retreat which
42:14
involved us going last Year last a week ago
42:17
Thursday. So six days ago, um, to a retreat center
42:22
with hermitages where for the first 24 hours we
42:25
were in prayer and solitude, praying for the
42:28
congregation and seeking God. Phones off because
42:32
of no electricity, by the way. It was minus 45
42:35
windchill. So the outhouse was a little bit of a
42:38
not fun experience. But, um, so rigorously praying
42:44
with God, uh, the first 24 hours. And then we
42:47
gathered in a, in a house together for the second
42:50
24 hours, still with our phones off in this time
42:53
and, uh, you know, God, what do we discern you're
42:57
doing in the life of this church? How do we, how
42:59
do we live, uh, in, in obedience to that set out
43:04
to return to our, uh, city and our congregation.
43:07
And now, just for some context, my congregation is
43:11
a Sabbath keeping church up. For 16 years we have
43:15
alternated our worship services where the first
43:17
and third weeks we worship Sunday mornings. Second
43:20
and fourth weeks we worship on Saturday evenings.
43:22
And we all take Sunday as a day of rest. So
43:25
Sabbath practice is a part of our life together.
43:27
So we were coming back for Saturday evening
43:29
contemplative service. And we're turning our
43:32
phones back on and we're flooded with the news of
43:34
what happened on Saturday morning with that
43:35
killing of Alex Preddy in our city. And it is,
43:38
it's shaking. I mean, it's like, uh, as we enter
43:41
the city, there are people standing on overpasses,
43:44
there are people standing on street corners. It
43:46
feels like the whole city is holding vigil. Um, so
43:51
I arrive back in the sanctuary, uh, meet my music
43:54
director there. It's an hour before the worship
43:56
service, and we say, this is now a service of
43:58
lament. We pulled out, um, a cross and candles.
44:03
She pulled out a bunch of just Taze music. We
44:07
realized we were already planning to chant Psalm
44:09
10, which, oh my gosh, Psalm 10 could have been
44:11
written that morning in Minneapolis. I mean, it
44:13
was so, ah, on point. Um, and we turned the
44:17
worship service into a service of lament. And
44:20
there was a citywide stand on the corner with
44:23
candles with your Neighbors plan for 7pm that
44:26
evening. So we gave out our Christmas candles, um,
44:29
from Christmas Eve service and said, take them, go
44:31
be with your neighbor. Um, so that was Saturday.
44:35
And when I sent them out, uh, my benediction to
44:39
them was maybe the bossiest benediction I've given
44:41
and since I've been with this community. And it
44:43
was, um, you are now leaving here to go into your
44:47
Sabbath day. And God gave us Sabbath for a reason.
44:52
Because if we do not stop, we're gonna forget who
44:55
is God, and we're gonna think it's us and that
44:58
it's all up to us. And, boy, does that pressure
45:01
feel strong around here to, like, be involved in
45:05
fixing what's broken. Or we're gonna think it's
45:08
all the voices clamoring to be God. And literally,
45:12
it's a command that you stop and you rest. Because
45:15
when you do, you are nothing but this beloved
45:18
child of God alongside other beloved children of
45:20
God. A creature, not creator. And you are made
45:23
ready to participate in what God is doing. And so
45:26
I just said to them, like, whatever that looks
45:28
like for you tomorrow, if it's just, like, not
45:30
looking at a screen the entire day, if it's, you
45:33
know, taking a long nap, I mean, whatever you need
45:35
to do to absolutely step out of this, this
45:37
practice, you need to do that because we have to
45:40
live in this, uh, way of God and not the way of
45:42
fear. And we're. We're going to forget if we
45:45
aren't following this practice. Um, so that was
45:48
the beginning of the week, and then the middle of
45:49
the week. I was with a group of pastors in Kansas
45:51
City at a rest and renewal retreat and got to tell
45:55
stories from my city there and hear from the
45:58
church in Kansas City about their faithfulness and
46:00
their, you know, heart being with us in
46:03
Minneapolis. And, uh, they're preparing for what
46:07
may be coming to them and remembering again, like,
46:10
this is a huge story we're part of and that the
46:13
church isn't just my congregation. It's this
46:16
global, you know, eternal community that God is
46:20
shaping and sustaining.
46:23
>> Loren: Wow, that's a great story. Thank you for sharing
46:26
that. Let me ask you one more question here before
46:28
we take a break. And it's. I feel like it's a
46:32
letdown from what you just shared, so thank you
46:34
for sharing that. But, uh, for my own angst as a
46:38
parent, one of the things I really loved in the
46:40
book was the prayers that were interwoven
46:45
throughout. So maybe give. You're just talking to
46:48
me. If anybody else, like, if this doesn't make
46:49
sense, anybody else, tell me, like, how can I
46:53
foster. I don't know, how can I foster formation
46:58
within my kids? And I want to frame it this way.
47:01
Like, perhaps, like you, I grew up in a context
47:05
where it was very rigid to, like, what it meant to
47:07
be. You know, this is spiritual practice. This is
47:11
spiritual discipline. You need to do this. Um,
47:15
that's what it means to be a good Christian.
47:17
Conversely, I don't know about you, but I feel
47:19
like what I've seen in the mainline is it's very
47:22
almost like, oh, do whatever spirituality by
47:26
osmosis and maybe they'll get it. So I don't want
47:30
to have this hard aspect of control. But also I
47:33
want to do more than just like, you know, hope
47:37
they pick something up type thing.
47:40
>> Speaker D: Yeah, um, yeah, I think, I think it's in how, I
47:45
think it is the sort of combination of both. Do we
47:48
have, do we have practices and rhythms that we do
47:50
as a family that become kind of part of us? Um,
47:55
and some of the gifts and benefits of growing up
47:58
in the evangelical tradition is like, we know how
48:00
to pray without, without having a book or like we
48:03
know, you know, we know how to respond in the
48:05
moment and like talk to God. Um, so doing that
48:08
with our kids, um, uh, looking at the ways that
48:12
it's already woven into the life of our, of our
48:14
family. But I also like, I'm gonna tell a story
48:16
from when my daughter was in kindergarten. Um, so
48:19
I have two kids. My son was very anxious for
48:22
kindergarten, you know, got off just fine. And my
48:25
daughter like watched all of this and by the time
48:28
it was her turn, she was prepared like the summer
48:30
before. I mean, she had her, her outfit out in
48:33
July, right? So she was like so excited for
48:36
kindergarten. She would teach her stuffed animals,
48:39
you know, in the living room. And she just like
48:41
marched to the front door when it was time. And we
48:43
got to her classroom and we set foot in her
48:46
classroom and there's all these kids and parents
48:48
getting settled and this teacher and she looked
48:50
around and she just burst into tears and she was
48:55
like, no, no, Mama, no, I can't do this. No, no.
48:58
And uh, and I was like, I pulled her out in the
49:01
hallway and I knelt down and I was just, I was
49:02
saying all the things like, your teacher seems so,
49:05
and you've been excited for this and it's going to
49:07
be great. And I'm trying to control her. I'm
49:09
trying to change how she feels both so that I feel
49:13
better and so that she feels better. And so that
49:14
this outcome of going successfully to kindergarten
49:17
is accomplished. And I'm not seeing her, I'm just
49:20
like peppering her with, uh, you know, platitudes.
49:25
And then all of a sudden I finally like, look in
49:28
this little, like tear streaked face and I, I, I
49:32
guess fall back on my like, inability to say
49:34
anything. And I grabbed for something that felt, I
49:38
will tell you, was not an act of faith, it was an
49:40
act of desperation. And I said, maisie, God has A
49:43
surprise for you today. And she was like, um,
49:47
really? Really? And I said, yes, something's gonna
49:51
happen today that is a gift from God. And when I
49:53
pick you up, I want you to tell me what it was. I
49:55
want you to watch for God's support. And she. She
49:59
took it in and she said, like, okay, I. You know,
50:02
uh, I will. And then she went into the classroom,
50:04
and then I turned around to walk out of the
50:05
building and was like, just made it out the front
50:08
door before I'm crying. And I'm like, God, uh, you
50:10
had better show up, because I just told her you
50:12
were going to. And, like, spent the whole morning,
50:16
like, you know, like, just, I don't know, trying
50:18
to control God's surprise and, like, willing God
50:22
to act. I got there to pick her up, and all of the
50:25
kindergartners came out first with these
50:27
ridiculous frog hats with, like, bouncing tongues
50:30
on the front of them. And she saw me from 20ft
50:33
away, and she started running towards me, and she
50:34
was like, mama, you were right. God did have a
50:38
surprise for me. I will tell you, I can't even
50:41
remember what it was that day, because it became
50:43
something I said to her every morning. And every
50:46
day for the first few weeks was like, okay, God,
50:48
give her one more. And it was things like, uh,
50:51
someone shared their sandwich at lunch, or we
50:53
learned a silly song, or I made a new friend on
50:56
the playground. Uh, and then it all started to
50:59
dawn on me, uh, like, maybe this shouldn't be a
51:04
surprise. Maybe this is, like, daily bread. Maybe,
51:07
like, to expect that God's going to do something
51:11
is actually the least risky thing you can tell
51:14
someone in a day. Um, and so this became really a
51:19
practice for us that sustained my kids when they
51:22
were young, and we sort of fell away from the
51:24
daily use of it. But it. I made a mosaic by our
51:27
front door. How will God surprise you today? And,
51:30
you know, every big transition, watch for God's
51:32
surprises. And it's. It always comes back to me,
51:35
like, is this something that. Do I believe God is
51:38
real? Well, I trust that God is going to be there
51:41
with us. And so when. When we think about
51:43
parenting in this way, it's literally just like
51:46
we're living this life alongside one another. God
51:49
is real. We encounter the living Christ when we
51:52
are with and for each other. And so how do we just
51:55
help each other learn to do that and to watch for
51:57
that and to talk about? Sometimes we're not
51:59
feeling it or seeing it and, uh, to do those
52:02
practices within community that help us, like,
52:05
Attending church and reading scripture and all
52:07
those things, but that it's. It's more about how
52:10
do we live this one life we've been given in a
52:13
community of people that are. That's meant to help
52:15
us know that we belong to God and each other, and
52:18
how do we help others do the same?
52:22
>> Loren: Wow. That's cool. That is so good. I don't know if
52:25
is this. This podcast interview is going to be
52:26
helpful for anybody else, but I've sort of
52:28
appreciated it, and thanks, uh, for sharing all
52:31
that. Uh, let's take a quick break, and we'll come
52:33
back with some closing questions. All right, we're
52:37
back with Reverend Carr Root, and the book is
52:40
again, A Pilgrimage into Letting Helping Parents
52:43
and Pastors Embrace the Uncontrollable. Thank you
52:46
so much. Really have appreciated this
52:48
conversation. Uh, some closing questions. We
52:51
always tell folks you can take these as seriously
52:53
or not as you'd like to. If, uh, you're a Pope for
52:55
a day, what do you want to do with that day?
52:59
>> Speaker D: So this is a funny question, because it, like,
53:02
goes exactly to what we've been talking about.
53:05
Like, my first instinct is to want to be like, oh,
53:08
that means I have all kinds of calling me out of
53:11
authority and honest. And honestly, I'm m. Like,
53:15
there's a reason I'm not Pope. Like, I'm not
53:17
equipped for that. So I think if I were Pope for
53:21
the day, honestly, I would just want to live,
53:23
like, reach, uh, out to all the other people who
53:26
are leading the church, like all the bishops and
53:28
archbishops and pastors, and be like, let's pray
53:31
together. Let's, like, remember that God is
53:34
holding all of this, and we just. We have what we
53:38
need already to seek what God is already up to in
53:41
our communities. How do we do that? So I think I
53:43
would try to take it out of the, uh, I don't know,
53:47
out of all the, like, layers we put on to try to
53:49
make sense of it and just be like, like, come, huh
53:51
on, guys. God's already real. How do we live this?
53:55
>> Loren: I've asked this question, like, over 200 times,
53:57
and you've just, like, struck me into the heart.
53:59
But it's on theme, uh, a theologian or historical
54:05
Christian figure you'd want to meet or bring back
54:07
to life. Yeah.
54:10
>> Speaker D: Um, you know, I wish I would have had a chance to
54:13
meet Eugene Peterson. He. He, to me, is someone
54:17
who has so faithfully pastored in this way. I
54:20
mean, he's a model to me of listening to God and
54:24
guiding with a sense of Presence and trust. And I
54:28
wish I could meet him, you know. And then my
54:31
second person, who I'm looking forward to actually
54:33
meeting this summer, um, because I'm going to
54:35
something that he's leading is Rowan Williams, who
54:37
was the Archbishop of Canterbury. And I love his
54:41
writing and I love the way that he thinks. And one
54:44
of his great gifts is sort of mining the history
54:47
of, of our Christian tradition and contemplative
54:49
life for, uh, today, which I love being grounded
54:53
in that bigger picture.
54:56
>> Loren: Well, I'm glad you mentioned Peterson. I'll tease
54:58
an upcoming recording, uh, I have with Katharine
55:02
Pershe. We're going to talk about, uh, Eugene
55:05
Peterson too. So looking forward to that
55:08
conversation. What do you think history will
55:11
remember from our current time and place?
55:17
>> Speaker D: Um, I mean, I think, I hope that people will, will
55:22
look back and go like, oh, look at how silly they
55:25
were with all their technology. And they've,
55:27
they're forgetting, forgetting how to be human
55:30
beings. I'm m glad we've moved past that. I think
55:34
that's sort of my hope is that we, and actually,
55:37
you know what I will say, say what is happening
55:40
right now in Minneapolis watching. I mean, of
55:43
course, technology is a tool and people are using
55:45
it really well. But, but what's been so beautiful
55:48
is that people, uh, are loving their neighbors and
55:51
they're motivated only about how do I take care of
55:53
my neighbors? And that is like, across, um, the
55:56
board. And that is an impermeable force. I mean,
56:00
really. So there are things that happen, like
56:04
crises and, and natural disasters that like, strip
56:07
away everything and bring us back to like, oh,
56:09
wait, here's what it means to be human beings. And
56:12
I think that we will, in the future look back at
56:15
this time and go, wow, we had a lot of ways of
56:17
forgetting that. I'm glad that, um, we're over
56:20
those particular challenges.
56:24
>> Loren: Well, cool. Uh, what do you hope for the future of
56:27
Christianity?
56:33
>> Speaker D: I hope for the continual breakdown of these
56:36
barriers that we've erected between one another as
56:39
siblings in Christ and, um, for a humility that,
56:46
that allows us to watch for what God is doing in
56:49
those people that we have named enemy. I think a
56:54
tragedy of the church now is that we oftentimes
56:57
hate other Christians more than, than anybody
57:00
else. And I think that's definitely, um, living
57:03
out of the way of fear. So watching for what God
57:06
is doing and the people that we are assuming God's
57:08
not working through. Um, yeah, that would be part
57:12
of my hope.
57:14
>> Loren: Well, this is, uh, thank you so much for this
57:16
conversation. Do you want to share how people can
57:18
get the book, connect with you. Any stuff like
57:21
that?
57:22
>> Speaker D: Yeah, I mean, get the book anywhere you buy books
57:25
and, um, connect with me. I have an email address
57:30
and a blog. I'm like, really not on social media.
57:33
I'm trying not to be. I have it and I
57:35
occasionally, um, get sucked back in. So you could
57:39
try. You could find me there. There's nothing
57:40
going on there, but you could find me there.
57:44
>> Loren: Okay, well, I'll make sure to link your website,
57:46
uh, in the show notes so folks can connect with
57:49
you there at least, right? If they want to.
57:51
>> Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, there's a good way.
57:53
>> Loren: Well, thank you so much. I've really appreciate
57:55
this conversation. We always leave folks with a
57:57
word of pe. So may God's peace be with you.
58:00
>> Speaker D: Thank you. And also with you.
58:05
>> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian
58:07
Podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is produced
58:10
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58:12
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58:15
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