Latest / The Shed Organics Show / #68 - What Horticulture Has Taught Me | Attila Horgosi

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#68 - What Horticulture Has Taught Me | Attila Horgosi · The Shed Organics Show

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Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of the Shed
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Organics Show. My name is Jordan and today I'm
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joined by the incredible Attila, the horticulturalist Attila
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Hulgozi. And this man is incredible.
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He has such a deep knowledge of gardens, plants and landscapes,
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of Bush regeneration, of horticulture, of so many
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different angles, I guess of this gardening world.
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And I feel like he's not really the type of person to give you
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these flashy garden tips and tricks.
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He's more somebody about observation, patience and
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working with nature, which is something that him and I really,
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really connected on not only, you know, outside of this, but
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in this conversation as well. As you will hear now, we covered
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so many different areas of, I guess this conversation in terms
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of different areas of horticulture, some of the areas
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of how you can grow beautiful vegetables, but also how we can
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look at our natural landscapes, look at our Bush regeneration
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practices, look at the way in which land progressively moves
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towards a certain place or it's moving through its layers of
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succession and how we can use that and understand that and
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bring that back into the garden. So, so much knowledge again, and
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unfortunately I had a little bit of issues with the camera right
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towards the end. So it did cut the conversation a
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touch short today. So I do apologize if it's a
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slightly shorter episode. I think it does fall short of
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the hour mark. But nonetheless, we have so much
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value in there. And I'm sure if you enjoy this
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conversation, let me know because I would love to get
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Attila back to finish Round 2. So let's dive in.
1:43
Let's dive into the conversation.
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Here we have Attila Horticulturalist.
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You've sort of covered many different areas of, let's say,
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horticulture or the plant Kingdom.
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You've kind of covered a few different areas like things like
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Bush regeneration and just urban horticulture, as you mentioned
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slightly before. If you had to kind of pinpoint
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one of those areas, where do you think you had the most change or
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growth or realization or what sort of what sort of area shaped
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you the most in terms of when you got stuck into these
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different sides of horticulture? Oh geez, probably nursery work.
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So, yeah, because I started life in wholesale nurseries, so
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working life. So so that really opened my eyes
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particularly to what I would call was chemical warfare was it
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was insane. Like the chemicals.
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So some of the chemicals that we were using are now no longer
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available in Australia, even in agriculture, like some are still
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available, which is quite scary, but a lot are not used anymore.
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Like it was absolutely incredible the amount of stuff
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that we would spray. Like it was constant.
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It was absolutely constant. So that's back in the 90s.
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So that's only in the 90s. And they just start thinking,
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yeah, it was absolutely wild to think of that.
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Think of that. And I go because I came from a
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background where mum, where they grew up, you didn't use sprays.
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Like it didn't exist. Like the sort of thing like when
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I started learning permaculture, mum's like, what's this
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permaculture rubbish? This is just what we do anyway,
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you know, it's like, so where they grew up, you could do, you
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had a winter crop and a summer crop.
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So in a region called, it's called Voivodina.
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So it's between the Danube and the Tissa River.
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So it's what's Serbia now. So basically the soil is
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probably the colour of your shirt.
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So it's deep, deep black. It's well over 100 meters.
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It's well over 100 meters deep. And so they can, they could get
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corn, sorry, they could get wheat.
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So it's non irrigated. So they would get wheat, they
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would get wheat. So 10 ton a hectare wheat
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harvest the wheat. This is not fertilizers.
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No, anything like this is just growing the way that then they
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would put corn and all their summer veggies in sunflowers.
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So all these things to, to feed their animals through the
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winter. And it was insane.
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So obviously mum, mum's like, of course, this is just what we do.
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We grow the fruit, we grow the veggies, we do this sort of
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stuff. That's like the normal, the pig
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was in the backyard, you know, the chickens, like we didn't
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like they never grew meat specifically to eat except for
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the pig. Like it's, you know, like
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because you didn't, the ox was always, hence why goulash and
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all these things exist because you ate the ox when it couldn't
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pull the plow anymore. You, you ate the horse because
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it couldn't draw any more. Like, you know, this is what
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you, this is what you did. So I think, yeah.
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So they were real turning points.
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Was like going to permaculture, learning that, learning from mum
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and then seeing chemical warfare.
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And you're seeing the contrast between the two of them.
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The boy like, you know, I remember spraying, I mean this
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is how like so there was a product called Ayla.
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So it's a growth regulator. And so we would spray that on
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chrysanthemums to keep them really squat in a pot so that
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they would be covered in flowers in these little pots so that
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they were easy to transport, you know, and these really tight
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little plants full of flowers. And I thought to myself, this is
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just ridiculous because you got these massive flowers on this
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little plant that's been just so chemically changed.
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But then people would come to the nursery tournament.
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So they'd go, my chrysanthemum doesn't look like what it did 12
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months ago. Of course, it's not not pumping
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it, covering it with, you know, growth regulators and all these
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other things. And then now you start thinking,
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OK, well, what's this doing to everything else?
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You know, because it's not going to just stay within that plant.
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Like how's it affecting everything else?
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And that's when So obviously I'm at TAFE and then IPM was just
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starting to come in. So, you know, so integrated pest
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management was just being started to be taught when I went
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to learn horticulture. And I was like, yeah, this is a
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much better way. Like, and it's, it's taken a
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while. Like it's literally taken 30
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plus years for for us to go, you know, for me to teach people
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that a leaf with an insect on it doesn't matter.
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Like it's OK. Like a plant's going to have
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that. And I think you had a post
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yesterday on Instagram and you talked about patients.
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Yes. And, and Scott Hall talked about
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it as well, like you can't change the weather, you can't
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change day length, you can't change how much rain it gets.
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Like that's this is, I teach patients regards.
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I teach that it's OK that a plant might look a bit certain.
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Why does it look sad? Before we used to just go to
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the, we'd go to the cupboard and find something.
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We just spray on it. You know, we just like, we would
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just spray. We just say, Oh, well, we just
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put this on now we'll get some labacid and malathion and you
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know, whatever other triphyrine we'd get whatever you know, we'd
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put, we'd look at, we'd be looking what insecticide, what
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fungicide, you know, could we put together at the same time
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and spray like all these different, you know, So there
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were, there was, there were, you know, charts of what you could
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put with what, like what you could spray with what, what was
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compatible, like what could you put with what?
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And just thinking that's wild to think that that's what we used
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to do, whereas now I can't remember the last.
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Like I don't spray for insects. It just doesn't happen anymore.
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Like it's just not like we just like, like it just doesn't
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happen like I will. We will occasionally.
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So I mean, I might get some hate for this, but I will still
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occasionally use something like glyphosate or slasher for gravel
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paths, something like that. But it's very targeted, it's
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very small and often it's once a year.
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So because the way that we think about it is like, OK, well, I
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can't change everybody and I can't not use like it's, I have
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to do it slowly and incrementally because things
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take time to change. And so, but the amount that I
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use compared to 30 years ago is so much reduced.
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Like it is just, and as I said, I don't spray for insects
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anymore at all. Like it just doesn't happen.
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And you've been, sorry to interject, you've been on the
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same property for a long time. Am I right in thinking that?
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So I've had this property where I'm at now.
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So 1998 is when we bought it. So So I've been here a long
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time, but we moved in in 2008. So because we built the house,
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so my wife, my brother, my dad and I, we built the house.
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So because he's a Carpenter. So yeah.
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So we actually so it took us three years on weekends to build
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the house. That's incredible.
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How cool. But yeah, so.
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What what I was going to say is that being just going off what
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you were saying before about the the patients and I guess the
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observation, you know, part of it, of gardening and learning
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the land. You get such a perspective over
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that sort of time frame living in in the same area, you get to
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see all sorts of all sorts of all sorts of what?
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What sort of things have stood out to you or surprised you
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maybe about watching your land and has it?
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Has your attunement to the land gotten better over the years?
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Definitely, I would say yes. You know, really, really in tune
10:29
with exactly the weather, what it's going to do, what clouds
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will bring rain. Like you just know, you look at
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the clouds, you know exactly what it's going to do.
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You can feel the winds, you know, you go, you can hear a
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thunderstorm and you know, it's only a couple of kilometers
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away. But because we're right near
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Lake George or Weira, so that's one of the largest inland lakes
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in New South Wales. So it's completely natural.
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So it has, no, it has no exit what the name of that sort of
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lake is. But yeah, so it has no exit down
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near Bungen Door and you can hear the storm and you go, no,
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the wind's there. That's this.
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No, the storm's not coming our way like it's going to go up
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away, but they all go particular ways you go.
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OK Yep, cool, that's coming from the northwest.
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Fantastic. Now we're going to sell easterly
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blowing. Oh, we might get a little bit of
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drizzle this afternoon and it'll come.
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So you just know by looking at the clouds and the winds and
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what's happening. But what water sounded me so
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when I first came here, so before I even bought the block,
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so obviously orientation. So it's a gentle N facing block
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and I came to it with a shovel. So I just basically I dug a hole
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and I went, OK, this is pretty I dug a hole.
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I had APH test kit. I didn't have an AC meter, but
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I, I dug a hole, did APH test and went, OK, I've got sort of
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work here with we've got my brother and I well, my brother
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here actually calls it concrete. So there's a concrete layer.
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So after I tested, so it's pH is 4 or was 4, so very low.
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We have, so our soil is sodic, very high in aluminium highland
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salinity. So it's quite saline so, so
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obviously and it was grazed to buggery.
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So by the time we got it, it's already known as 150 years of of
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heavy grazing. When I bought it, it was just
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all over grazed. So there was barely a blade of
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grass on it. And as you know, all those
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classic, all I ever did was every year is just throw super
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phosphate on it 'cause that just that just makes it better.
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So just. You know, and let's plow it like
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you know, let's, let's plow when it's wet, it's a sodic soil.
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That's why it's turns to concrete.
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If you want to compact our soil, just walk on it when it's wet,
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boom. Like that's it.
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Like you can see to where I have my main paths, obviously I put
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stepping, I put steppers in or I put mulch down or things like
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that. Like that's what I do.
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So that because you, you can't grow any because it just
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compacts in those wear points. So I'm very mindful of of when
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it's wet, don't walk on it, don't use it, don't use it.
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Like at least leave it 24 hours or longer.
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So that was seeing the pH that low, seeing the salinity, I'm
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like, OK, that's really low pH. And then obviously there were no
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roots in the soil. Like I was just like, OK, this
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is really bad. Like, you know, when you dig,
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when you dig a hole and you go, OK, there's no roots there.
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This is really, really bad. So obviously thistles when my
13:30
friend. So because I call them green
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tractors. So.
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They're living green tractors, so thistles, artichokes, which
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are basically just a fancy Thistle.
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So we started planting them or just letting the thistles come
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up by themselves, planting lots of artichokes.
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And then because in areas the source about 80 centimeters
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before you hit the parent rock. So we decided to dig out
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artichokes just to see how deep the roots were.
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So we got to 80 centimeters and just stopped because their roots
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kept going through into the rock.
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So, so they're they were able to get in and then I started
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planting a lot of acacias. So I planted acacias, poplars
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and then obviously once you took the grazing pressure off, the
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blackberries started to come up. So obviously then you've got a
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lot of blackberries coming up. But we don't because of my
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bushogen background. I don't look because they're
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just plants. They're not weeds, they're just
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plants. So they're all, they're all
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healing assistant. So they're all band aiding
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because they're all doing. And Scott Hall, if anyone hasn't
14:35
listened to it, go back and listen because he talks about
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it. Because annuals do their thing,
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because annuals have to be annuals.
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That's what they do. And then you've got longer live,
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you've got annuals that can do their thing in three months.
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Then you've got annuals that take six months or you know, and
14:49
then you've got your perennials that come after that.
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You've got your short lived perennials, long lived
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perennials, and you've got your shrubs and all those sort of
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layers start forming. And that's what I did.
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So, So we'll slash down, so we'll cut down the BlackBerry
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and we'll use the BlackBerry prunings and other things.
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So my brother uses it as, as he calls it, living barbed wire.
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So he uses it to wrap around his veggie garden.
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So yeah, so he'll use that. So he'll chop it so it doesn't
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keep growing obviously, but uses the dried stuff because it's
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quite fluffy. So it'll stop the Wallabies, the
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Kangaroos and things like that. Just not that, not that they eat
15:29
a lot, but they, they like to trample stuff.
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So especially Kangaroos. So, so we'll just use it as a,
15:34
as a dried like barrier around, around veggie gardens, like
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we've got fencing and other stuff like that.
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And obviously I've got a full covered orchard because
15:44
otherwise the birds take all my fruit and they take the tomatoes
15:48
and everything. Well, actually they don't take
15:49
the tomatoes, they'll just damage it.
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But anyway, so that's what we'll do.
15:52
Like we'll look at, I mean the same like I had serrated Tusic
15:55
and I still have a lot of serrated Tusic, but when I first
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came here, you know, I used to just spray it.
16:01
I used to use Glucopenate and a lot of glyphs that like I said,
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like I used to buy it in 20 liter drums because that's just
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what I was taught. That's what you did.
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You just sprayed the you sprayed the tussock and you, you know,
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you just put it on and my brother said, he goes, it's not
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working, is it? I said, you know what?
16:17
It's not like it just doesn't like it kills it, but it doesn't
16:21
get rid of it because it's such a, it's such a persistent plant
16:24
and you know, these and then you've got to use more and more.
16:28
And I went and then he said, isn't it just, So what we do now
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is as with the Bush regen technique, we go through the
16:35
areas where there's one or two. We start there and we, all I do
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is I've got a special shovel that I use and I just go in and
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I just pop it out. So it's not attached to the soil
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anymore. Boom.
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And I just leave it there and it just dies.
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And so, so and I just go around that way.
16:50
And then, and then because they'll be planting trees and
16:55
particularly a lot of vacations because I've got to repair the
16:57
land. So what's better to repair the
16:59
land by the locations? So nitrogen, lots and lots of
17:03
roots, a great amount of biomass.
17:06
They drop a lot of seeds, so they drop a lot of seed casing.
17:08
So that nice woody stuff as well, you know, so that they
17:12
provide such a really nice malt on the ground.
17:15
Metussic can't grow on it or it does grow.
17:17
It's very feeble. It doesn't sit seed, but it just
17:20
takes time. Like it takes 25 years to get to
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that point, you know, whereas everyone's looking
17:26
forward-looking for something. It has to happen to that.
17:30
And like I said, well, if you want to happen today, dig it out
17:34
and then it's gone. But I said it's better not to.
17:36
It's better just pop it out, leave it there.
17:38
It rots down. Because The thing is, especially
17:40
with these toxic grasses, they're full of like lizards,
17:44
like little skinks, because it's it's habitat.
17:46
And again, that's from a bushogen thing.
17:49
This is like we've got a lot of BlackBerry.
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We didn't get rid of it. We didn't come in, get a big
17:53
tractor in and just get rid of because it's full of habitat.
17:56
Yes, it's got rabbits in it, it's got hares, but it's also
17:59
got Wallabies, it's got blue Rams, it's got silver eyes, it's
18:02
got thornbills. So it's got all the little birds
18:04
in it. But now I've got other plants
18:07
for them, so I can slowly reduce the BlackBerry because I've got
18:10
the other plants. And Jordan, the BlackBerry is
18:13
reducing itself anyway because we're shading it out.
18:16
Exactly. So it tends to only grow on the
18:20
edges of where we've got the trees growing.
18:22
So that's where all the observational stuff comes in.
18:25
Plus also, you know, when we first moved here, we were lucky
18:29
to see a blue tongue or a shingle back like lizard.
18:33
So from the lizard perspective. So now we've got blue tongues,
18:36
we've got blue tongues, we've got shingle backs, we've got
18:38
Cunningham's, we've got jackets, we've got Dragons, and we've got
18:42
tiger snakes as well. And then we've got, you know,
18:44
numerous kinks, legless, you know, legless lizards.
18:47
So we've got all of these things.
18:49
And then the bird count as well is through the roof like, you
18:52
know, and a funny story is my brother, he he's got we've got a
18:57
quite a large dam which was on the property when we bought it.
19:00
And he thought I got a few goldfish and you build a little
19:03
pond next to the dam up what he thought was out of the flood
19:06
zone. Anyway, major flood came in, the
19:09
goldfish got into the dam and he's like, this is really bad.
19:13
So they got in, so he put a barrier on so they couldn't get
19:18
out of the dam to. But the waterways here, they're
19:22
not, they don't, they're not, they're only, they're not
19:26
perennial. They're ephemeral.
19:27
So they only flow up in heavy rain.
19:30
But anyway, the Cormac came in and just what had happened was
19:34
the goldfish bred, but the Cormac came in, ate all the
19:37
existing goldfish, just cleaned them up and then they bred.
19:41
And then he had like 1000 goldfish in there.
19:44
But then it got us thinking, what happened was the cornet,
19:46
the herons, the great egrets, they all came and they started
19:50
feasting on the goldfish. And then we were, and then we
19:53
were thinking, then we're thinking, hang on.
19:55
So they're basically taking Charlie carp, They're eating
19:59
Charlie carp, eating it, standing on the bank, and then
20:02
they're shitting and then they're pewing.
20:04
And then these birds are pewing. And my brother's going all these
20:08
extra birds that we have on the farm are basically fertilizing
20:12
our farm for us. And they're producing it.
20:14
They're producing such a fantastic way that they're
20:18
producing it the way that they're spreading it around and
20:20
the way that they're doing it. And you know, when we think
20:24
about it like it, it might not seem a lot. 1 individual poop
20:28
When you add it all up, When you add up how much they are
20:32
actually doing over our farm, it's incredible.
20:36
Like so true. Hey, guys, really quickly
20:39
jumping in. I just want to remind you, if
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you are not subscribed to this show, that is the number one
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20:55
The only thing that I add anything extra to is the veggie
20:58
garden because unfortunately that's under netting so the
21:01
birds can't get in there. So I do add some extra.
21:04
I do add some extra, so I will buy like I might get some stuff
21:10
from Neutron because I like their products.
21:12
They're a great company. You know, I've listened to what
21:14
they do and how far so they've, but it's very limited what I
21:18
use. Like it's really, really.
21:21
So I try and get the plants to do everything for me.
21:24
The vegetable gardening, though, is like compared to sort of this
21:29
regenerative approach to the land.
21:32
It's like an intensive horticultural style doing
21:35
vegetables right. We're trying to get maximum
21:38
nutrient density, maximum crop and yield out of a short space
21:42
of time. And also, oh, sorry, yeah.
21:45
But also the other thing as well is, is that the vegetables that
21:48
we're growing are not what they were originally.
21:50
So they've all been, they've all been bred over time to get
21:54
bigger and change. So they're they're requiring, so
21:58
I'm trying to say the carrots that I grow, for example, the
22:03
potatoes I grow. So the carrots I grow, I'm
22:06
selecting the seeds, I'm selecting the ones that flower
22:10
and seed the latest. And so I'm constantly getting
22:13
the carrots that are. And so like carrots don't need
22:16
fertilizer. My potatoes don't need
22:18
fertilizer like they don't need. So I've got parsnip now growing.
22:24
So yeah, carrots, parsnip, potatoes, like so they do really
22:28
well for us. Garlic is just the weed that I
22:31
just planted underneath. So the garlic I don't even
22:34
because unfortunately my wife can't eat garlic, but I like
22:36
garlic. So garlic is just the perennial
22:38
bulb that I leave under my fruit treats.
22:41
So it just sits there. So, so I don't do, I don't do
22:44
any. If I want garlic, I'll just go
22:45
out there. I'll just go under my Cherry
22:47
Tree and I'll pick up some bolts, you know, and that's what
22:50
I'll do. And then when they start
22:51
shooting, I just have fresh garlic and it's just, you know,
22:54
it doesn't have the same intensity, but I just go and I
22:57
just leave it. And it's been there for 20 years
22:58
and it just grows and it comes back every year.
23:01
Every now and again. I'll let it seed and then it
23:03
just self seeds itself. And then you've just got, you
23:06
know, smaller garlic and then it just keeps buying itself
23:08
elsewhere. And that's what I was also
23:11
thinking about because I really like what Craig Castry talks
23:14
about and how he's using what I like about him and what you're
23:19
doing in Vassily and a whole bunch of us is that we're
23:21
talking about how we can produce with as little inputs as is
23:27
possible, like without having to bring stuff in from big
23:31
distances and things like that. So how we can produce with as
23:35
little of extra as we possibly can.
23:39
And so I was thinking about this with Craig.
23:41
He goes, you know, a full garden doesn't grow any weeds, which is
23:44
completely true. And you know, and I think it was
23:47
last last your last podcast or the one before we're talking
23:51
about Tilly. No, that's right.
23:52
It was the the guy at the US. Tad.
23:55
Yeah, Tad Hussey from KISS Organics.
23:58
That's and so we're talking about, because he was talking
24:00
about, you know, the broad fork and things like that.
24:03
And, and I was thinking, shit, So what my brother and I, we
24:07
talk about, we talk about what we do is we do bandicooting or
24:11
we do, we do, we mimic what a live bird would do.
24:14
So we might weed a really small patch.
24:17
So we'll read, we'll weigh meter by meter.
24:20
So we'll weigh that area out and we'll take some stuff out of
24:22
that because what that will do is and we'll we'll, we'll just
24:26
scratch the surface over a little bit.
24:27
We'll get a fork or something like that.
24:29
We won't double dig it or do any of that, but that gives some
24:32
bare earth to what germinates there.
24:34
Beetroot, carrots, fasten it. Lettuce because they need bare
24:41
soil to germinate in and without bare soil they won't germinate.
24:45
And then we'll move 3 meters away and we'll do another little
24:48
patch and we'll move exactly like what a live bird does
24:50
through the forest. True.
24:52
So rather than clearing out a giant area, we'll do a little
24:55
area, do a little area, do a little area and just keep moving
24:58
around. Because ultimately I want to.
25:02
Because if it's self seeds it, because I know the seeds are in
25:04
the soil. If it's seeds there, everything
25:07
is right for it. And if I can have as much self
25:10
seeding as possible and then you've got these little complex
25:13
little ecosystems there. And then the other thing too is
25:16
there's a lot of native insects that need bare ground.
25:20
Yeah. And because when I look at the
25:21
farm and this is where I, this is like from observation,
25:26
Kangaroos have dust baths. So they will produce, they have,
25:29
they will make very large areas, you know, under the yellow box
25:34
trees like so in the winter time, so where they get the
25:39
morning sun, they've got these beautiful dust baths.
25:42
So invariably you've got this little hollow where they where
25:46
they bathe in and then where they kick it all up is where all
25:50
the thistles bloody germinate. But then eventually, you know,
25:54
once the thistles die down and they've done their thing, the
25:56
microwlena starts to come back and the other things, you know,
25:59
the other because obviously because it's been so plowed,
26:02
unfortunately, you know, I've lost all of the orchids all over
26:06
the ground, but I'm getting those, they're coming back.
26:09
So slowly and slowly, they're slowly coming back.
26:12
But see, these animals will do that like, and so they'll bare
26:15
the soil and you know, say after drought, drought will will all
26:20
the grass will be, will be down or it'll be dormant.
26:23
Once the rain comes, guess what germinates All the eclipse will
26:27
germinate then all the occasions will germinate then.
26:30
So they all need or say when I do a cool burns, I'll do small
26:35
patch, I'll do small miles, 8 burns really.
26:38
Wow, I'll. Get acacias like I might do A2
26:41
square meter block and it'll be the acacias seeds will be so
26:45
thick and it'll be just a carpet of Acacia seedlings.
26:49
Guess what, it'll come in, the Kangaroos will come in and
26:51
they'll eat 99.9% of them. So only a handful will actually
26:55
survive because I love it. It's like bean sprouts.
26:58
So they go woo Hoo and they'll come.
26:59
And same with the grasses and things like that.
27:01
So that's what I watch those sort of things.
27:04
And so I guess when I watch and I look at this and I see what
27:08
the animals do, I try and mimic what they do in my veggie
27:12
garden. And so I don't be over
27:15
prescriptive is like, OK, no, I need to dig this and it's OK.
27:19
Has anyone ever seen what a wombat does?
27:21
Like, you know, he, he will dig or, or we've got, luckily we've
27:27
got wild pigs. Like, again, they're not ideal
27:32
because our land isn't really set for them, but holy Jesus,
27:35
they will turn over. Like you think someone's coming
27:38
with a tractor. So nature does turn soil.
27:43
Like, it will turn, it will turn the soil, it will do things like
27:46
that. And yeah, it's really
27:48
interesting. Like where I watch, like where,
27:50
where the Kangaroos have turned over the soil overnight, then
27:55
the Magpies will come in in the morning and they will peek
27:58
through the soil that they've turned over because it's, and
28:02
it's easy for them to see and here and whatever's in that
28:05
spot. So there's all these little
28:06
things that we do and, but obviously we need to get away.
28:13
Like, you know, if I see a Rotary hoe anywhere in a
28:16
backyard, like I'm just, you know, like like that, she's got
28:19
to go. What the hell?
28:22
No Rotary hoes. Like, you know, this is.
28:24
So there's we like to do when you do the things by hand and
28:28
you do it in small sections like that, it's so much less
28:32
damaging. Like you don't damage the worms,
28:35
you don't damage the like it's all there.
28:37
If you're using a fork like, you'll do some damage, but that
28:41
damage is then food for something else.
28:44
Exactly and. And like a little bit of stress
28:46
is often a really good thing. Like we go to the gym, right, to
28:50
stress our muscles to get stronger.
28:52
And often like plants when you prune them or when they are
28:57
getting eaten off by animals and things that promotes them to
29:00
grow stronger and these types of things.
29:02
So a little bit of stress on the system seems to build resilience
29:07
within it as well. That's what I sort of sea.
29:10
Yeah, absolutely. Well, it's like with watering.
29:13
So that's one of my other functions is to get people to
29:16
use a whole lot less water and like to really accept that in
29:22
January when it's 43, well you know, it's not 43 every day, but
29:26
when it's in Canberra, it's 43°C.
29:30
It's been hot, it's been dry. You know, even the most
29:33
resilient of planets, they look sad, they look horrible.
29:36
They don't even my succulents like their leaves have rolled up
29:41
and they just look even the native plants, like they just,
29:45
you know, even the things that are able to that have adapted to
29:49
here just don't look good without rain.
29:51
Like it's just a matter of fact. They but the gardens that we're
29:54
trying to put in and the plants that we're trying to put in, you
29:57
know, from an ornamental, but also from a beneficial point of
30:00
view, as soon as the rain comes, like they're back within
30:04
sometimes within hours, you know, and sometimes within a
30:07
week, you know, they're happy and they look so incredible
30:10
again. Well, one, because the dust is
30:12
washed off them, any wood ash or fire, you know, all of that's
30:15
washed off them. So they look fantastic, but they
30:17
can respond really, really quickly, you know.
30:20
So that's so you know, like I'm almost thinking like so so from
30:24
a fruit perspective, like I got fruit diet, like fruits, like
30:28
all the fruit that are grown out is really except for cherries.
30:32
So they're a bit finicky for me because the soil that I have
30:35
isn't that great for them. The climate is the climate is
30:38
fine. The soil isn't completely
30:40
perfect for them. So I will, you know, I'll give
30:43
them extra water just to get them through because, you know,
30:48
such a great crop and all the rest of it.
30:49
So I love, but things like Quince, the apples, the pears,
30:54
well, they're fantastic. Like a little bit of water is no
30:58
problem. But in January, the berries, I
31:02
just had to let them basically not die.
31:05
But I had to just not worry about the fruit in January
31:07
because it's just like, OK, it's just too hot.
31:10
The berries aren't going to do anything.
31:11
You guys got like, you guys got a.
31:13
Few days above like 40° or something.
31:16
Didn't you this year? Yeah, it's crazy.
31:17
But it wasn't, it wasn't too many.
31:19
So it was like, but it was very, very dry.
31:22
And it's not like, yes, heat waves are getting worse than all
31:24
the rest of them, but we can go into that another time.
31:27
But yes. But it's just here's what it is
31:30
like. I can't.
31:31
I want us to, you know, I want us to not use as much fossil
31:35
fuels. I want us to be, you know,
31:37
thinking more likely, obviously more seasonally, like all the
31:40
rest. Like, I can't remember the last
31:41
time I bought an apple. Like, I just don't buy apples.
31:44
Yeah, that's amazing. Like we, you know.
31:46
We eat them in season. It's just like, yes, we buy.
31:49
We buy, say, rock melon, we buy watermelon and which is
31:53
fantastic because we now have the Southern Harvest Market.
31:56
And so Ruth down there, her philosophy is to buy only things
32:00
from 150 kilometer Raiders of the shop.
32:03
Beautiful. So, yeah, so it's really,
32:05
really. So you know where the fruits are
32:07
coming from, you know where the vegetables are coming from.
32:08
And I said to Cherry, she's like, oh, you know, that's my
32:11
daughter. She said, oh, they've got
32:13
watermelon. And I said, yeah, but it's not
32:14
watermelon season. I said, wait till the watermelon
32:17
season kicks in, then you'll get a watermelon and then we'll get
32:20
it from Ruth and you'll taste, you'll taste it, you know, the
32:24
rock melon. You taste the flavour of it will
32:26
be so much more intense. It'll I said it'll taste like
32:29
sunshine because it's warm, it's sunny.
32:32
That's when it's meant to grow. You know, that's when it's going
32:35
to be, you know, the best flavour.
32:37
And she's like, and that's what we'll do like we do.
32:41
I do enjoy bananas, avocados and mangoes.
32:44
So yes, you know, and like I said to people, I said I
32:48
shouldn't eat them. You know, technically they don't
32:51
grow here, but I said we're allowed.
32:55
If you beat yourself up too hard, then you just you, you're
32:59
just going to collapse in a heap.
33:00
So I said sometimes, you know, these little luxuries are OK.
33:04
You know, it's a bit like a road trip is OK.
33:06
You know, it's all right to travel and do these things like
33:09
you do them mindfully and you think about them.
33:11
So it's all OK to do these these things.
33:14
But like, as I say, we don't buy apples.
33:16
I don't buy pears. I don't do and actually I don't.
33:18
So these are all things we seasonally and then I dry them,
33:21
I bottle them and then we have them.
33:23
We have them in a different form for the rest of the season.
33:27
Yeah, at the moment I've got raspberries coming out of my
33:29
asshole. Like there's, you know, they're
33:31
all, you know, because we've had great rain, perfect weather now
33:34
and they're just, they're just blooming and they're flourishing
33:37
it. And that's fine.
33:38
Like that's just what you have to do.
33:40
And it's just like, you know, and particularly for us, because
33:43
we've had our first really light frost, but they've been quite
33:47
minimal. But the potatoes are done, the
33:49
sweet potatoes are done, the tomatoes are done, but they're
33:52
all finished now. Like they're, they're all done,
33:55
but the days are too short now anyway, so they'd be finishing
33:57
up anyway. Yeah, you know, so even if we
34:00
didn't have a frost, they'd be done anyway because the days are
34:03
too short and things like that. That's why I have a glass house
34:06
where where the capsicums are in.
34:08
So I've got sweet potato cuttings in there going.
34:11
The cucumbers are still going there.
34:12
Basil's still going in there. So those crops I'll keep, I'll
34:16
keep through the winter in the glass.
34:19
Yeah, I remember. Seeing you, you posted a video
34:22
about your cucumbers in there and you how you were able to
34:25
grow cucumbers in there. And it's a really nice little
34:27
greenhouse. I think it's it would it, it
34:30
just extends your ability to grow things in different parts,
34:34
different parts of the year, right?
34:36
So like for instance. Like.
34:39
Here, for example, in, in Queensland, obviously we have
34:44
such warm weather all year round.
34:45
We're dealing with like we can grow mangoes and avocados and
34:49
bananas and, and have those within season.
34:52
But like, we can also, like we can grow tomatoes through our
34:56
winter and through our summer, for example.
34:58
And all of these things like we can grow even cucumbers.
35:02
I can grow cucumbers through both seasons.
35:04
I can grow eggplants through the winter as long as the soil is
35:08
like relatively warm, you know, it's like it's insulated or
35:12
whatever it is. It's just we're lucky in
35:15
different parts of the world to be able to grow different crops
35:17
at different times. But the little hack of having
35:20
something like a greenhouse where you can extend your crop a
35:23
little bit and and get some more stuff, which is essentially
35:27
extending the season. So you're still eating
35:29
seasonally. It's just an extended season
35:32
maybe. Yeah.
35:33
Yeah. No, absolutely.
35:34
I mean, that's what it is. I mean, that's what it's for.
35:36
It's so I can because otherwise, you know, before I was getting
35:41
like maybe a four week season out of the out of the capsicums,
35:44
whereas now, you know, we're, we're because the capsicum's a
35:47
perennial plant. Like most people don't know that
35:49
it's a perennial. Like I've got capsicums that are
35:52
now going into their third year. And so they they will produce,
35:56
they won't produce through winter because the days are just
35:58
too, even though they're they're doing neutral plants.
36:01
Same with tomatoes. It's just too cold for them.
36:03
Like they just won't, you know, they're just, I've got a really,
36:07
you know, they put them all together, they're all nice and
36:09
close and tucked in together in the glass house away from the
36:11
edges. But then that way I've got them
36:15
there, they're ready as soon as the warmer weather comes.
36:19
So they're in pots. I'll put a bit of seaweed
36:21
liquids, like sea mongers, bit of gigantic organic on it and
36:26
that's it. Like, and I'll get some worm
36:28
castings from my own worm, from my own worm farms, put some of
36:32
that on top and away I go. And then invariably what happens
36:35
as well is if it, if the capsicum starts to die out, I
36:40
just leave some seeds on top of that soil and I'll just
36:43
germinate. And so then I've got a new
36:44
capsicum plant coming on top of, OK, so I have, I don't have to
36:49
change the pot or anything like that.
36:51
And the same with the, so with the cucumbers now, I'll put
36:53
lettuce over the top of where the cucumber pots are.
36:56
And then I'll just cut the cucumbers off when they're
36:58
finally finished. And then what I'll do is with
37:03
with that next, next season, I'll put cucumber straight back
37:07
into that pot. Like I'll just maybe add a bit
37:09
of extra potting mix on top, a bit of worm castings and the
37:13
same thing. And away I'll go again.
37:15
But the other thing I've found in the glass house is So what
37:18
I'm using now as a natural or part of the winter pest control
37:22
is Nicotana. So the Persian tobacco.
37:26
So that's, you want to mention tobacco?
37:28
Yeah, because what it does, because the leaves are quite
37:31
large and they're very, very sticky.
37:34
So the so the small insects are the aphids and the, and the
37:37
fungus gnats and all these other things, they just stick to the
37:39
leaves. It's a sticky trap.
37:41
Because it's a sticky trap. But it's a natural sticky trap
37:44
and it smells fantastic. I'm writing that down.
37:47
What is it? Persian tobacco or Nikitiana?
37:51
So it's the, it's the ornamental tobacco that's.
37:54
Amazing. Yeah.
37:55
So it has a big. White flower, so it's fantastic
37:58
in the garden through the summer.
38:00
So it's really cool, really big leaf and it smells, it smells
38:03
fantastic. But in the glass house, yeah,
38:06
it's just such a brilliant, it's such a brilliant natural, like
38:11
instant insect trap. So it's just, it's just
38:13
fantastic. So you know, again, OK, really
38:18
quickly. Just one more thing, I have just
38:20
launched an exciting new group. Jordan's Soil Society is a place
38:25
where you can come and learn more about the soil beneath your
38:29
feet. We're going in depth into what
38:31
makes living soil, what makes good, healthy plants, and
38:35
ultimately what leads to better health for us as individuals.
38:39
So if you want to learn more about joining my Soil Society,
38:42
hit the link at the top of the description below and you can
38:45
come and find out. All right.
38:46
Thanks for listening back to the show.
38:48
Yeah. So just little things about that
38:50
you observe and you go, wow, that's really cool and stuff
38:52
like that. And and then I know like I know
38:56
the bricks rating of like I know when my plants are shutting
38:59
down. So I know that they're not like
39:04
the capsicums are still happy now, but soon as the weather
39:06
gets a bit cooler, they'll get a little bit of scale on them.
39:09
They'll get a little bit of I fit on them because the Wasps
39:12
aren't active anymore because they've all gone to sleep.
39:17
The capsicums are going to sleep.
39:19
So their bricks rating has dropped.
39:21
So they can't, they can't naturally defend themselves
39:23
anymore because. Because essentially they should
39:26
be dead. Because it's winter.
39:28
They'll be dead like the tomatoes outside.
39:31
They're dead. So there's no insects or them
39:33
to, to, to, to be in control. Yeah, because they're getting so
39:39
frost is cleansing everything on the outside.
39:42
So that's where the glass house is a really tricky part to
39:47
because obviously I'm being selfishly wanting capsicums, you
39:50
know, organically grown on capsicums, which, you know, I
39:53
bring in a bucket load and I say to my wife and say we've got
39:55
$400.00 worth of capsicums here. You know, because organically
39:59
grown on capsicums 1 they're really high times.
40:02
And they're really. Really expensive, but you know,
40:04
you get the flavour of these and it's just like nothing you've
40:07
ever had. So I will, you know, I'll squirt
40:10
the iPhones off. I'll put the you know, so I will
40:13
do that little bit extra to get something that is of such high
40:16
value. The tomatoes.
40:18
I want the tomatoes, I won't bother in the glasshouse like
40:21
growing them through the winter. Like I want them to be outside
40:25
because they just get too many things with them in the winter.
40:28
So I just I don't bother with them inside, but the capsicums
40:33
are real. That's probably the only that's
40:35
the only one that I try and get through the winter.
40:38
But everything else can just get completely cleansed outside.
40:41
All the pumpkins outside, just the frost.
40:43
Just cleanse it up beautifully. You've got a.
40:46
Beautiful, like a range of different growing sort of
40:50
conditions or like areas to be able to to grow things.
40:53
And presumably you've built that up over the time that you've
40:56
been there and sort of say, oh, I want to grow this this season.
40:59
And you sort of try and see how it can happen.
41:03
I wonder now, like after after all this time, mate, like
41:07
you've, you know, you're working and tinkering away in different
41:11
areas and you say different interests draw you at different
41:15
times, for example, of your life.
41:18
And you know, I am interested in one thing for a while and then
41:21
something else sort of makes sense.
41:23
And then it clicks and I go over here and where?
41:27
Are you at the? Moment If you're you know when
41:29
you're pottering around the garden and it's just you and and
41:32
the plants and you're doing the things that you're doing what's
41:35
occupying your thought space, your curiosity after this sort
41:39
of time because to me this world of gardening and and nature is
41:45
is always going to provide me with this curious pull towards
41:49
learning more and observing and and working within this world.
41:53
But what is it like because I'm further behind you on the
41:58
journey. So I want to know from you what
42:00
sort of things are still getting you out of bed and excited about
42:04
all of these different concepts. Well, it's just.
42:10
I mean, it's so mind bogglingly complex.
42:14
So like I did a bit of AI, did a bit of a rough like calculation
42:18
of the different like I went, I went, OK, am I going to call a
42:21
variety? So I went, OK, well, I'll call a
42:23
variety a separate plant in my, in my lease that I did.
42:28
So I went through, I went through like every plant, so
42:31
ones that are exotic and natives.
42:33
So I went through and so on the farm as a whole, there's about
42:37
1000 different species and varieties.
42:40
So obviously, obviously now I've got a lot of apples and I've got
42:44
a lot of pears. So I counted each different
42:46
variety of that. So, you know, I counted Granny.
42:49
So cheated a little bit. Yeah.
42:52
And like with the blueberries, so I cheated.
42:53
And the same with the raspberries.
42:54
Like I got a whole bunch of different Raspberry varieties,
42:56
but I counted each one of them differently.
42:59
It's far. Different.
43:00
So you've got early, mid, late season, then you've got summer
43:03
flowering, summer fruiting, autumn fruiting.
43:06
So you've got all these different, you know, varieties
43:08
within that. So, so I love just what I love
43:12
trying to do is growing the maximum amount that I can
43:16
without, without any inputs. And so, and I'm trying to fill
43:21
up every single void. So I'm just constantly planting
43:25
different plants. And so for me, not everything
43:28
has to be. And I think it's really, really,
43:30
really important that not every plant isn't edible because
43:33
people get stuck up on food forests and everything has to be
43:37
edible because The thing is, everything is edible, but it's
43:40
edible to a bacteria, to a fungus, to an insect, to a bird,
43:43
to, you know, so all these important, so, you know, they're
43:47
all important things. They're all essential and so
43:50
they're all edible, but you've got to provide them with the
43:53
with the food that they need because it's like I say that
43:56
people like parasitic Wasps don't like flowers.
44:00
The bees go like honey bees go on.
44:03
So they don't like, because honey bees are bullies.
44:05
The honey bees are big, they're strong and they will take the
44:09
pollen. So you need these teeny, teeny
44:11
tiny flowers. So carrot flower is perfect for
44:15
that. It's a great example.
44:16
Yarrow is another perfect example, you know, because the
44:19
flower heads are big, but the individual flowers are tiny.
44:22
And I said, come here, have a look at this and said it's
44:24
covered in dust. Most of them are passive Wasps.
44:28
So they're all you know, because you have said, you think about
44:31
it. I said, because remember, it's
44:32
not the wasp and it's, I was talking to a friend the other
44:36
day, like down. I was down in Melbourne at the
44:38
Flower Show and we were talking about say Emmeline Bowman does
44:42
like, she does like stormwater soaks in people's.
44:46
So she does amazing gun designs and she does stormwater soaks.
44:49
So disconnecting, you know, drains or like down pipes and
44:55
putting it in the garden and which, you know, for us, like
45:01
it's a no brainer. Like we don't even, we almost
45:04
think that we're like imposters because we think that everybody
45:07
should know this, but we realized that everybody doesn't
45:11
know. They didn't even think about it.
45:13
And so we, we're coming in and people think we're amazing where
45:16
we think we just need pastas because everybody knows this,
45:18
because everyone thinks the way we do.
45:20
And that's what I mean with flowers.
45:21
Like they don't, they think that the wasp is the thing that's
45:25
eating the iPhone. I said, no, no, no, the wasp
45:27
doesn't. It's lays its egg, it's the
45:29
larvae. The wasp needs sugar, it needs
45:32
flour. It's this larvae that does all
45:34
the eating. It's the larvae that does all
45:36
that. Same with the ladybird.
45:37
The ladybird doesn't. The ladybird needs the flower.
45:40
It's it's juvenile that does. I mean, the ladybird probably,
45:43
yeah. You know, the, the beetle
45:44
actually will probably do some eating of the acids, but it's
45:47
the juveniles that will do, you know, it's a larvae that will
45:50
absolutely clean them up. You know, it's like a, you watch
45:54
a wasp, you know, you watch a wasp laying an egg or laying
45:59
it's egg and it's like it's going through hundreds of acids,
46:03
you know, and just, yeah. And it's time like people had
46:06
problem. Like I don't have a cabbage
46:07
white problem because I've got Wasps.
46:11
So. You know, the Wasps come in so
46:14
one the, the so I've got broccoli now that are coming
46:17
into their third year. So so they're strong enough and
46:22
they're healthy enough that the cabbage white Caterpillar can't
46:25
do much damage to them. That's crazy.
46:28
Yeah, but that, that's the the bricks, right.
46:30
The bricks levels being high enough so that they're healthy
46:32
enough, resilient enough. They're not giving them that
46:35
that. Message.
46:36
And. And during the warmer season,
46:38
when they might be growing too vigorously, there's too much
46:40
water. So they're a bit softer.
46:42
The Wasps are coming in and parasitizing the caterpillars
46:44
anyway. Yeah, So it's all about, and I
46:48
didn't know I had this because I was just looking under the
46:50
relief and I was like, what the hell is this?
46:51
And I was like scratching my head going hang on, that's not
46:53
cabbage. I thought it was cabbage white.
46:55
And I'm like, no, it's too big for that.
46:57
And then I looked it up and I went, holy shit.
46:59
That's the larvae of, you know, cabbage white moth.
47:05
What? You know, it's just mind buying.
47:07
It's just like, this is so cool. Like it's just it's taking time
47:10
because you need to leave. You need to leave the refuge
47:13
there. You need to leave.
47:14
And I think that's what's really changed now from what I see in
47:17
gardening. So I still have a few gardens
47:20
where people like it really need, you know, clipped and all
47:23
the rest of it. And that's OK.
47:25
But we, we're now planting a lot more underneath.
47:28
Like we've, you know, the, the, you know, we're trying to fill
47:33
the gardens up and we're throwing in a bit of flour here.
47:35
We're doing this and we're not worrying about.
47:38
So like I said before, we don't spray for insects.
47:40
If the plant is sick and it's too sick, then it's a problem
47:44
with chosen the wrong plan for that spot.
48:03
There we have it, ladies and. Gentlemen, thank you again so
48:05
much to Attila. A beautiful insight into your
48:09
world in Canberra and how your work and your perspective is
48:14
really shaping gardens and landscapes across that region
48:17
and broadly across the country. So thank you so much to Attila.
48:20
If you enjoyed this conversation, make sure to let
48:23
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48:41
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48:45
I've launched an incredible community where we can all learn
48:48
about the soil beneath our feet. We can learn what makes it tick
48:52
and how that relates to the important, the all important
48:56
nutrient density of our produce, how that relates to our health
48:59
and how that relates to the planetary health in general.
49:02
What can we do practically to fix the soil beneath our feet to
49:05
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49:09
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49:12
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49:19
And I very much look forward to seeing you next week on the next
49:22
episode. Take care and bye for now.