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SMNTY Interviews: Saadia Khan · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stephane.
0:07
Speaker 1: Never told your production of iHeart Radio and welcome to
0:20
Speaker 1: uh stuff, I'll never told you, as Any just said.
0:22
Speaker 1: And I'm super excited obviously, because you know any, you know,
0:26
Speaker 1: specifically when we have guests on that I admire, I
0:30
Speaker 1: started getting really really nervous and get a little bit
0:33
Speaker 1: fan girl ish, So you know, go ahead and put
0:36
Speaker 1: that in the preface. Listeners, you know how I get,
0:38
Speaker 1: So go ahead and be prepared for me to fan
0:40
Speaker 1: girl a little bit, because today we have award winning podcaster, Yes,
0:44
Speaker 1: award winning and amazing activists, human rights activists, Saudia Han.
0:49
Speaker 1: Did I say that right? Yes, yes, Okay, I'm doing
0:52
Speaker 1: I'm really trying with this because you know, it's a
0:54
Speaker 1: new when I have accents or things that you do
0:57
Speaker 1: in a different type of language, you really want to
1:00
Speaker 1: honor that. But then at the same time, I suck.
1:05
Speaker 1: Don't suck at other accents. I really, I really do.
1:09
Speaker 1: And you've heard my English accent, You've made fun of
1:11
Speaker 1: my English accent. What are you talking about, Well, that's
1:14
Speaker 1: when you're kind of goofing around. That's that's a different thing.
1:17
Speaker 1: That's exactly what's happening. Um, But yes, welcome to the show, Salia,
1:22
Speaker 1: How are you? I am good? Thank you Annie and
1:25
Speaker 1: Samantha for inviting me, Thank you for coming. Yes, before
1:29
Speaker 1: we begin, if you would let the listeners know who
1:32
Speaker 1: you are and kind of just introduce yourself. Hmm. So
1:36
Speaker 1: I am rights activist. I am an immigrant Pakistani American,
1:42
Speaker 1: intersectional feminist, inclusive feminist, mom, coffee drinker, I love my coffee.
1:50
Speaker 1: And I'm also the producer and host of a weekly
1:52
Speaker 1: podcast called Immigrantly, where we have conversations around race, identity,
1:57
Speaker 1: and the immigrant experience. We just launched another podcast, Got
2:02
Speaker 1: Invisible Heat, which focuses on heat crimes committed against minorities.
2:10
Speaker 1: And I'm trying to be more intentional about apologizing more
2:17
Speaker 1: and connecting with my inner self. That's my twenty twenty
2:21
Speaker 1: three resolution. Oh that's a good one. Yeah, I really
2:26
Speaker 1: like that. And we were so excited to have you
2:29
Speaker 1: on and talking because your show aligns so well with
2:34
Speaker 1: our shows, Like, of course we should be friends. Of
2:37
Speaker 1: course you should be on this show, you should be
2:39
Speaker 1: on it regularly. But we'll just move on with that. Um.
2:43
Speaker 1: But we are so glad to be able to connect
2:46
Speaker 1: with you because the things that you're speaking about your
2:49
Speaker 1: podcast and which is been around for a little while, UM,
2:52
Speaker 1: really connects to what we talk about when we talk
2:54
Speaker 1: about having to have a conversation today about intersexual feminism
2:59
Speaker 1: and what it means and why it's so important. And Yeah,
3:03
Speaker 1: there's so many things that we could talk about, UM,
3:05
Speaker 1: but we do have to narrow it down or we'll
3:07
Speaker 1: be on this forever. Like I said, it should be
3:09
Speaker 1: a regular thing her, UM. But first, let's talk about
3:13
Speaker 1: your podcast. Why Why, Why did it heart? How did
3:16
Speaker 1: it start? You know, Samantha, this may sound a bit clichee,
3:19
Speaker 1: but it started as a reaction to two thousand sixteen elections.
3:24
Speaker 1: I was working for a small civil society at the
3:26
Speaker 1: time as their policy specialist, and then elections happened and
3:32
Speaker 1: there was so much negativity around immigrant experience. And I
3:35
Speaker 1: had faced microaggressions because of my Muslim identity in the past,
3:40
Speaker 1: but I always, you know, ignored them. I was, it
3:42
Speaker 1: doesn't matter. Maybe that's how immigrant experiences are. But then
3:47
Speaker 1: the rhetoric was becoming more normalized and that was a
3:52
Speaker 1: watershed moment for me, and I felt like I couldn't
3:55
Speaker 1: sit on the sidelines anymore, and I felt it was
3:58
Speaker 1: time for all of us people of color martialized communities
4:01
Speaker 1: to take charge of their own narratives um and not
4:04
Speaker 1: let somebody else define them. So Immigrantly was created. Fun fact,
4:09
Speaker 1: it was called the Alien Chronicles. I was trying to
4:13
Speaker 1: reclaim the term alien. I don't know what was I thinking,
4:18
Speaker 1: it's a very toxic term. It cannot be reclaimed. So
4:21
Speaker 1: we switched to Immigrantly a year into the podcast, which
4:25
Speaker 1: is short and sweet. Can we use the message. It's
4:28
Speaker 1: been four years, more than two hundred episodes, amazing guests.
4:33
Speaker 1: Now we're learning every single day. Yeah. So I listened
4:37
Speaker 1: to the first episode and I had realized you had
4:40
Speaker 1: a name change. But it's so on point for I
4:43
Speaker 1: think people like yourself and myself, who are people of
4:46
Speaker 1: color who try to make other people kind of comfortable
4:49
Speaker 1: in kind of the mockery of ourselves in a little bit,
4:52
Speaker 1: And then you realize this is not for me, This
4:55
Speaker 1: is to make white people comfortable, and why why am
4:58
Speaker 1: I doing this? And you have that more would have like,
5:00
Speaker 1: I don't have to do that for people. Hell, yeah,
5:03
Speaker 1: let's let's get to what it is. And I think
5:05
Speaker 1: that's an amazing conversation. You know that this is the
5:08
Speaker 1: beginning of the inner turmoil of loving yourself when you
5:11
Speaker 1: unravel that. Oh my gosh, I love that. And I've
5:14
Speaker 1: learned so much over the last four years and talking
5:17
Speaker 1: about first episode, so let me preface it by saying
5:21
Speaker 1: that it sounds really raw, and that's when we didn't
5:27
Speaker 1: have the kind of production quality or themetic depth that
5:30
Speaker 1: we have now. UM So I would suggest to listeners
5:34
Speaker 1: start from our latest episode because that's more emblematic of
5:38
Speaker 1: who we are now. But you're right, in the beginning,
5:41
Speaker 1: there was so much learning and I'm not um. I
5:45
Speaker 1: don't have um education in production or audio production or
5:49
Speaker 1: any of those sorts of things. And I just did
5:52
Speaker 1: it because I felt I needed to. It was a
5:55
Speaker 1: visceral reaction. And I remember once I was talking to
5:58
Speaker 1: somebody and they were like, oh, so you had a
6:00
Speaker 1: journalist and I'm like, no, I'm an activist. I'm not
6:03
Speaker 1: a journalist. And then she said something so profound. She
6:07
Speaker 1: was like, yeah, but you are doing journalism work. And
6:13
Speaker 1: I that was not my default setting. I just fell
6:18
Speaker 1: into it because I had to, right And I love that.
6:22
Speaker 1: I love that you talk about how Yeah, at the
6:25
Speaker 1: beginning it was rough. This is a different sound, but
6:27
Speaker 1: you did it without knowing what you were doing. You
6:29
Speaker 1: did it because you knew that we needed to be
6:31
Speaker 1: that voice. And I'm really glad nothing held you back
6:34
Speaker 1: because that's exactly so true. And so many times that
6:37
Speaker 1: that we talked about when we're encouraging our people are
6:40
Speaker 1: asking if you try to do a podcast, what do
6:42
Speaker 1: you think about this? And it's like, yeah, there is
6:44
Speaker 1: room for you, and there is a need for you,
6:46
Speaker 1: and that nothing should stop you, even if it feels rough,
6:48
Speaker 1: even if you don't think you know what you're doing
6:50
Speaker 1: going forward, you will learn as you talk about and
6:53
Speaker 1: and and yeah, I'll listen to the latest two. It's
6:55
Speaker 1: amazing to be able to grow and show what you
6:59
Speaker 1: have learned, and to show that you can't start at
7:01
Speaker 1: zero and go to this. It's amazing. I love it. Yeah,
7:04
Speaker 1: And it requires a lot of great and persistence. It's
7:07
Speaker 1: not easy. There's a huge learning curve. It is frustrating.
7:11
Speaker 1: At times you just want to give up and you're like,
7:14
Speaker 1: why aren't people listening? Where are my people? Where you're
7:19
Speaker 1: trying whatever? But then you realize that people will come
7:22
Speaker 1: around if you're passionate and if you're true to who
7:25
Speaker 1: you are. Authenticity is something that I just held on
7:29
Speaker 1: too throughout um, whether it's my accent, my storytelling, my
7:34
Speaker 1: immigrant experience, it's out there for everybody to just see
7:40
Speaker 1: and if they don't like it, to fluck yes, yes,
7:47
Speaker 1: Well I'm curious since you started, have you seen changes
7:53
Speaker 1: in podcasting in kind of your listenership that you know,
7:58
Speaker 1: for better or worse both things. Just have you seen
8:02
Speaker 1: what have you observed in your time in podcasting? Of
8:05
Speaker 1: course in terms of listenership and downloads, and a lot
8:09
Speaker 1: of podcasters are hung up on downloads, so yeah, those matter,
8:13
Speaker 1: and we've seen a jump in that. Of course, It's
8:16
Speaker 1: been a great journey thus far. But what I'm really
8:20
Speaker 1: proud of is how I started as an individual and
8:24
Speaker 1: then a year and I realized that the kind of
8:28
Speaker 1: work that I'm doing, I want other people. I want
8:31
Speaker 1: a team to work on it and bring their lived experiences.
8:36
Speaker 1: And then we created this amazing, incredible team of mostly
8:40
Speaker 1: women of color, young women of color who bring their
8:43
Speaker 1: lived experiences. So we've really improved into thematic depths, um,
8:49
Speaker 1: the kind of conversations that we're having and to be
8:52
Speaker 1: honest Annie. In the beginning, I was just shy. I
8:56
Speaker 1: couldn't really talk about things that were personal that I
9:00
Speaker 1: thought I would be judged on, especially within the American
9:05
Speaker 1: social and political discourse, Muslims people from Pakistan are viewed
9:09
Speaker 1: a certain way. But now I am just unapologetically who
9:14
Speaker 1: I am. Whether it's talking about, you know, my sexual journey,
9:20
Speaker 1: or my life as an immygrout or as a mom
9:23
Speaker 1: my journey with anxiety um or mental health issues, or
9:30
Speaker 1: how I view America and how I navigate two different worlds,
9:34
Speaker 1: it's all there. It's all an honest account of who
9:39
Speaker 1: I am. And that took some time. It wasn't easy
9:43
Speaker 1: in the beginning because, as Samantha said, I was still
9:47
Speaker 1: trying to please everybody. And I stopped doing that because
9:51
Speaker 1: the onus is not on me to please others exactly.
9:55
Speaker 1: And I love that, and I love that you do
9:58
Speaker 1: share so much of your story, but not only that,
10:01
Speaker 1: you bring people on to share their story and narrative
10:04
Speaker 1: things that you really done. I listen to the Michelle episode,
10:07
Speaker 1: which hit really close for me. Obviously I'm also adopted,
10:10
Speaker 1: so I was like, oh, here's an episode for me,
10:12
Speaker 1: and I don't love everything about this, but you do
10:15
Speaker 1: give this opportunity every one of your episodes, it seems
10:18
Speaker 1: for other people to have their voice be out there
10:22
Speaker 1: and tell those stories as well. UM, why do you
10:25
Speaker 1: think those those types of experiences, that other stories being
10:28
Speaker 1: told is so important? Because I feel stories are most
10:32
Speaker 1: powerful and tenable when they're told us first person accounts,
10:36
Speaker 1: and therefore, for us, immigrantly has become a space that
10:42
Speaker 1: we hold for others to share their lived experiences. It
10:45
Speaker 1: is not my place to share somebody else's lived experiences,
10:49
Speaker 1: and that's what we do. And that's what's so core
10:53
Speaker 1: to immigrantly experience and immigrantly narratives because a lot of times,
10:59
Speaker 1: and this goes back to what I have experienced in America,
11:03
Speaker 1: whether it's in the media or political discourse, how conversations
11:07
Speaker 1: around Muslims, especially Muslim women, are framed somebody else is
11:12
Speaker 1: telling my story, and I didn't want to do that.
11:15
Speaker 1: I wanted to basically tim that narrative one it said
11:18
Speaker 1: and say, no, we are going to let other people
11:21
Speaker 1: tell their stories. Yeah, I mean, that's That's one of
11:26
Speaker 1: the things I find about UM podcasting that can be
11:29
Speaker 1: so powerful is when for me like I remember I
11:33
Speaker 1: grew up in a small conservative town and having that
11:35
Speaker 1: voice of somebody or you're like, oh they like me,
11:37
Speaker 1: I'm not alone. I feel that and having that connection
11:40
Speaker 1: be a podcast and what you're doing is so powerful
11:42
Speaker 1: and so important. I can just imagine like listeners all
11:46
Speaker 1: over hearing that and needing that and feeling something like
11:50
Speaker 1: ease inside because there's so much. There's so much you
11:53
Speaker 1: don't realize until you kind of start untangling it, or
11:58
Speaker 1: until you hear someone else say it may be. And
12:01
Speaker 1: I find that so powerful. So um. I don't know
12:06
Speaker 1: if that's kind of been your experience or how you feel,
12:08
Speaker 1: but that's that's what I feel like. Listen to a
12:12
Speaker 1: good podcast and something like what you're doing is why
12:15
Speaker 1: it's so impactful and so important. Absolutely. And something else
12:19
Speaker 1: I want to say here is that sometimes it's a
12:22
Speaker 1: good exercise to just recognize that as humans we have
12:27
Speaker 1: limitations and how we understand other people and their stories,
12:32
Speaker 1: and to approach them from a place of curiosity and
12:37
Speaker 1: ally ship. I feel a lot of times what happens
12:41
Speaker 1: is that people think they know other people's stories. So
12:46
Speaker 1: every time I have a guest, I just look at
12:49
Speaker 1: them from this place of complete you know, intrigue and curiosity,
12:58
Speaker 1: and I want them to leave the way. And that's
13:02
Speaker 1: such a powerful way for me at least because I
13:06
Speaker 1: have understood so many things and going back towards Samantha said,
13:10
Speaker 1: I think one thing that we do at Immigrantly which
13:12
Speaker 1: is really important to me is bring people from different
13:16
Speaker 1: cultural ethnic backgrounds, religious backgrounds, sexual orientations. A lot of
13:21
Speaker 1: times minority groups live in their siles and they don't connect.
13:27
Speaker 1: There is lack of I don't want to say coalition building,
13:31
Speaker 1: but collaboration. And with Immigrantly, I didn't want it to
13:35
Speaker 1: be just stories about Muslims or just stories about Pakistani's
13:40
Speaker 1: or South Asians. That was never the intent. And there
13:44
Speaker 1: are some incredible podcasts and content writers and creators who
13:48
Speaker 1: are doing that, and you know, more power to them.
13:51
Speaker 1: But for me, the goal was to just bring different
13:54
Speaker 1: communities together. That we really dug into your podcast and
14:13
Speaker 1: really got you to talk about your expertise. But I
14:15
Speaker 1: would love to hear some of the background that you've
14:17
Speaker 1: been through. Why do you think you know you wanted
14:20
Speaker 1: to share the story of your life. Yeah, twenty six
14:23
Speaker 1: thing was awful. Like the minute you said, I was like,
14:27
Speaker 1: oh god, oh god, Yeah, the memories, Um, there was
14:30
Speaker 1: so much that was happening, the talk about the refugees
14:33
Speaker 1: and the immigrant sattus and people. Even today, actually, there's
14:36
Speaker 1: a lot of things that are happening with our current
14:38
Speaker 1: administration that I'm like, why, why are you allowing this
14:41
Speaker 1: to occur? Can you tell our listeners a little bit
14:43
Speaker 1: about your background and your experiences? Absolutely, And I've shared
14:48
Speaker 1: this story on other platforms, so I I'm sorry listeners
14:52
Speaker 1: if you already, but I shared this story because this
14:57
Speaker 1: speaks to who I am now. So, my ad um
15:00
Speaker 1: came to the US in the seventies as a young
15:04
Speaker 1: engineer for work, and he instantly fell in love with
15:08
Speaker 1: the country. He just loved the idea of American dream
15:13
Speaker 1: and he thought it was a meritocracy, which I don't
15:16
Speaker 1: think it is, um, but that was my father's point
15:19
Speaker 1: of view. But then he had to go back after
15:22
Speaker 1: a couple of years um to fulfill some familiar responsibilities.
15:27
Speaker 1: And by then he had a green card, which at
15:29
Speaker 1: that time was probably easy to get, especially for professionals.
15:34
Speaker 1: And obviously my my dad had a privileged life in
15:38
Speaker 1: the US, so his experiences were obviously different. From a
15:41
Speaker 1: lot of immigrants. He went back and he was realized
15:45
Speaker 1: these stories about America, and I felt as a child
15:47
Speaker 1: um in the eighties and nineties, I felt as if
15:50
Speaker 1: I connected to people. And when I came in early
15:54
Speaker 1: two thousand's on my own adventure, it was in fact
15:57
Speaker 1: out of want then need. We just wanted to My
16:00
Speaker 1: husband and I, who had just gotten married, wanted to
16:02
Speaker 1: experience the American life. He got into this great program
16:07
Speaker 1: um in Cambridge at M I T and we came
16:10
Speaker 1: to the US. But this was around nine eleven and
16:14
Speaker 1: America had become a lot more paranoid and angry and resentful,
16:20
Speaker 1: especially towards people like me, And that to me was shocking,
16:28
Speaker 1: although we expected, yet shocking because I had heard stories
16:32
Speaker 1: that was so different. Initially, I didn't pay attention because
16:37
Speaker 1: I thought we'd go back. It was just like a
16:39
Speaker 1: year two years. And I used to watch Jerry Springers.
16:44
Speaker 1: So for all gen Z people out there, they probably
16:47
Speaker 1: even don't know what that is. But I used to
16:50
Speaker 1: watch that in early two thousand's and consume it, and
16:53
Speaker 1: I thought, you know, that's how all Americans behaved. Not true.
16:57
Speaker 1: But anyways, as years went by and we settled down
17:01
Speaker 1: and my kids were born. The stakes were getting higher. Right.
17:07
Speaker 1: I was more invested in the American idea of equality
17:12
Speaker 1: and justice. And I won't say practically that is the case,
17:15
Speaker 1: but the idea, the idea that the experiment, the social
17:18
Speaker 1: experiment that America is. And I started to notice more
17:22
Speaker 1: microaggressions around me. Right, so things that go back to
17:26
Speaker 1: where you came from, or were you allowed to go
17:28
Speaker 1: to college in Pakistan, and a lot of interesting stories
17:34
Speaker 1: and questions. People would not understand my accent, my name.
17:39
Speaker 1: I remember my daughter was in sixth grade and she
17:43
Speaker 1: was called um the queen of Taliban. Now this is
17:47
Speaker 1: the kid born and raised in America, doesn't know any
17:52
Speaker 1: place else, and she was in sixth grade, she was
17:56
Speaker 1: more eleven. And it was so shocking and disheartening. And
18:02
Speaker 1: I started working for human rights organizations, went to grad school,
18:06
Speaker 1: did my masters and human rights. Wanted to dedicate my
18:10
Speaker 1: life to realization of rights internationally. I was focused more
18:14
Speaker 1: on that. But then two thousand sixteen elections, as I said, happened,
18:18
Speaker 1: and I was like, why am I focused globally? Why
18:23
Speaker 1: am I doing that? There is so much to learn
18:26
Speaker 1: and there is so much to unlearn in America, and
18:29
Speaker 1: that's when that paradigm shift happened for me. Mm hmm. Yeah.
18:35
Speaker 1: I can't imagine for your daughter that feeling of being
18:38
Speaker 1: outsider when this is all you know and you're having
18:40
Speaker 1: to explain yourself when you're like I experienced similar things
18:45
Speaker 1: like you. I've been here the whole time. I don't
18:48
Speaker 1: understand why you're mothering me and why therefore we have
18:51
Speaker 1: to have these lines. But it's so heartbreaking, I'm sure
18:54
Speaker 1: as a mother to see that and try to explain
18:56
Speaker 1: that to your child, especially for a child, as you said, Samantha.
19:01
Speaker 1: For me, I consider myself an outside and an inside it.
19:04
Speaker 1: I don't fully think I am American or Pakistani anymore.
19:08
Speaker 1: I'm somewhere in the middle. But for my daughter to
19:12
Speaker 1: feel that way, or to be made to feel that way,
19:16
Speaker 1: it's just cruel. Sorry, I have to sit in those
19:21
Speaker 1: moments of like you know, you have a moment of
19:23
Speaker 1: like trying to untangle your own feelings in that, because
19:27
Speaker 1: there's something so personal for me especially, and I'm sorry
19:30
Speaker 1: for you when you have that moment of seeing that,
19:34
Speaker 1: remembering kind of what that is, and then coming back
19:37
Speaker 1: to but this is another child and you wish you
19:39
Speaker 1: could protect all children from this type of nonsense and ignorance,
19:44
Speaker 1: but you know it's gonna be a forever thing, so
19:45
Speaker 1: you have to navigate how to speak about this is
19:48
Speaker 1: not the only time. I don't want to destroy your
19:52
Speaker 1: goodness and your love and your hope for the future either,
19:54
Speaker 1: But like there's just a moment of like, how do
19:57
Speaker 1: I do this not too cynically? Absolutely, and try to
20:00
Speaker 1: break it down. But of course that's kind of what
20:03
Speaker 1: you're trying to do with this podcast. And I love this,
20:06
Speaker 1: and I love that you break down the experiences of
20:09
Speaker 1: individuals as well as bringing in your perspective in it.
20:13
Speaker 1: And yeah, you're growing your team. I know that your
20:15
Speaker 1: team is quite young, so I love seeing that you
20:17
Speaker 1: are mentoring your staff to do this for the next
20:21
Speaker 1: generations to come. That's such a wonderful thing to see.
20:25
Speaker 1: And they are mentoring me. We have such must conversations,
20:30
Speaker 1: right sometimes, as I said, with my kids and with
20:32
Speaker 1: this team, I'm like, tell me how do we use TikTok? Right?
20:38
Speaker 1: I'm really going through that right now. I also getting
20:41
Speaker 1: there who just graduated them from college and they're like,
20:44
Speaker 1: we're gonna do a TikTok for you, and I was like,
20:45
Speaker 1: what we're doing? What? So, yeah, I've ordered them. I said,
20:51
Speaker 1: just you know, send me guidelines or whatever. I would
20:55
Speaker 1: follow them because when I feed my own TikTok videos again,
20:59
Speaker 1: they are just so bad and as my kids would
21:03
Speaker 1: call it, so cringe e um. But yeah, I'm learning
21:07
Speaker 1: so much from them. There there unabashed honesty. Honestly, this
21:13
Speaker 1: generation doesn't give a They don't care. They are they are,
21:18
Speaker 1: and they look at things as a collective endeavor. For them,
21:23
Speaker 1: it's all about how our actions are impacting others. Right.
21:27
Speaker 1: They really have come to a whole different understanding and
21:30
Speaker 1: I don't love that, um. And I also love that
21:33
Speaker 1: you also make sure that in your podcast, uh, that
21:38
Speaker 1: you are bringing diverse voices, which is what you are
21:40
Speaker 1: talked about before. You don't want to just tell one
21:42
Speaker 1: side of the story. You want to tell all the
21:43
Speaker 1: sides of the story, which is so important. And we've
21:46
Speaker 1: been kind of going back and forth from the beginning
21:48
Speaker 1: of the show, which was two Other House, which has
21:51
Speaker 1: actually been a part of the show from jump, even
21:53
Speaker 1: though she wasn't the host. So she's she's old school,
21:56
Speaker 1: but like ten eleven years ago when it originated to today,
22:00
Speaker 1: the world is vastly changed so quickly, and one of
22:03
Speaker 1: the things that we've talked about keeping it and making
22:05
Speaker 1: sure that we are having this conversation of diversity and
22:09
Speaker 1: that not only our show is changing that, but we're
22:11
Speaker 1: making sure that others who ask about the podcasting world
22:15
Speaker 1: that we're emphasizing the need for diversity. Do you see
22:18
Speaker 1: since I know you've started in twenty sixteen, do you
22:21
Speaker 1: see a big change? Have you seen the diversity hopefully
22:25
Speaker 1: grow or do you think it's gotten backwards? So the
22:28
Speaker 1: podcast started in twenty eighteen, and of twenty eighteen almost
22:32
Speaker 1: beginning of the elections obviously were a huge impetus, but
22:37
Speaker 1: I waited at least a couple of years before I could,
22:41
Speaker 1: you know, do it? In terms of diversity, I feel
22:46
Speaker 1: like I am almost reluctant to use that word often
22:53
Speaker 1: because I feel diversity can be misconstrued or sometimes be
23:01
Speaker 1: pleer formative. So how do we define diversity right? What
23:05
Speaker 1: does it mean? Are we holding space for people to
23:10
Speaker 1: use their voices or to critique or to are we
23:15
Speaker 1: dismantling systems or are we just using diversity as a
23:20
Speaker 1: token or to weaponize it to say, you know what,
23:23
Speaker 1: we've done what we're supposed to do and it's okay.
23:26
Speaker 1: So diversity can be a tricky term, but if it
23:31
Speaker 1: is done in a proper, well intentioned, well executed way,
23:37
Speaker 1: not even just well intentioned. I'm sure there are a
23:39
Speaker 1: lot of well meaning people trying to do diversity and
23:42
Speaker 1: they still mess it up. Um. I think it can
23:46
Speaker 1: be a very powerful tool, and we have come a
23:49
Speaker 1: long way, and I think a lot of people of
23:51
Speaker 1: color and diverse communities are demanding the kind of diversity
23:56
Speaker 1: that will dismantle systems of oppression, which wasn't happening before.
24:01
Speaker 1: People were content with the kind of diversity that was
24:05
Speaker 1: fed to them. And that's a huge change. In the
24:09
Speaker 1: last at least four or five years. Through activism, advocacy,
24:13
Speaker 1: content creation, we are seeing a lot of that, right. Yeah,
24:18
Speaker 1: I like what you just said, like the whole performative,
24:20
Speaker 1: because it does become a trendy word, um, instead of
24:23
Speaker 1: an action. And yeah, I think that's right on when
24:27
Speaker 1: we talk about it, because we see that too often
24:29
Speaker 1: that when we're saying we want diversity, Yes we will
24:32
Speaker 1: bring in marginalized communities, but as long as you fulfill
24:35
Speaker 1: our narrative. But we're gonna say, at least we have
24:37
Speaker 1: that person, right, look, which is also that tokenism that
24:40
Speaker 1: we often see. They make us comfortable enough to bring
24:42
Speaker 1: it in because they're going to say what we want
24:44
Speaker 1: them to say, which is that hierarchy of white supremacy
24:47
Speaker 1: that often happens and dismantles within within the marginalized communities.
24:51
Speaker 1: That becomes a stumbling block for within the marginalized community
24:55
Speaker 1: in itself, and we see that so often. It's so
25:00
Speaker 1: tragic to me to see that when you see that
25:02
Speaker 1: only self loathing within the community that they wish they
25:06
Speaker 1: were white, which that was my childhood. That was my
25:09
Speaker 1: childhood until like I was like, wait, this is not
25:11
Speaker 1: going to ever work. What is this, Samantha. I love, love,
25:16
Speaker 1: love the term that you just use self loathing. I
25:21
Speaker 1: see that if all marginalized communities, it's like, okay, let's
25:26
Speaker 1: change because America is not accepting us. There must be
25:30
Speaker 1: something wrong with us. Right, So your empowerment, your success,
25:36
Speaker 1: your emancipation, becomes a function of your proximity to whiteness, right,
25:44
Speaker 1: And I see that around me, and I'm sure at
25:48
Speaker 1: one point I was doing the same. We all do it.
25:52
Speaker 1: To some extent, but to recognize that we do it
25:57
Speaker 1: and we self flows and we want to change because
26:01
Speaker 1: we are not accepted as we are and who we
26:04
Speaker 1: are is a profound learning experience, right, UM. And I
26:10
Speaker 1: hope more people can just sit with that thought and say,
26:14
Speaker 1: you know what, that's true. I do that. Whether you
26:19
Speaker 1: course correct or not, that's your journey. Nobody can tell
26:22
Speaker 1: you when to but recognizing is the first step, right.
26:27
Speaker 1: I absolutely agree with that, UM. And speaking of because
26:31
Speaker 1: I'm going to jump into a little bit outside of
26:32
Speaker 1: the podcast, because I have read a few of your
26:35
Speaker 1: articles that you've written. I love them, UM, And one
26:38
Speaker 1: of them you wrote, we need to replace white feminism
26:42
Speaker 1: with inclusive feminism, and you know, of course I spoke
26:44
Speaker 1: to us. We were like, oh yeah, we have to
26:46
Speaker 1: jump on on this, um, and it was so needed.
26:50
Speaker 1: But in your article you talk about the need to
26:52
Speaker 1: hold white feminism accountable, and yeah, that's something we talked
26:56
Speaker 1: about often and it's made people uncomfortable. We made a
26:59
Speaker 1: lot of people and comfortable and that's it should, um,
27:02
Speaker 1: And it should on every level. And as we've changed
27:05
Speaker 1: throughout the years, and we've had so many conversations on
27:07
Speaker 1: why intersectionality has to be the core of the feminist
27:11
Speaker 1: idea for it to make change, because we've seen feminism.
27:14
Speaker 1: It's been around, but it's not made change. It's made
27:17
Speaker 1: some changes, but not full change. And you reference the
27:20
Speaker 1: term and you said it earlier inclusive feminism, But can
27:23
Speaker 1: you talk about that for a minute. So I came
27:26
Speaker 1: up with the term. I am a huge fan of
27:29
Speaker 1: intersectional feminism. I've used it in the past, but sometimes
27:34
Speaker 1: I find it to be too academic for me, and
27:37
Speaker 1: I thought, what other would could I use? That's more
27:42
Speaker 1: I don't want to see mainstream but easy to use
27:45
Speaker 1: and navigate, And I thought, why not make it simple
27:49
Speaker 1: or simpler and say inclusive feminism? So I basically started
27:54
Speaker 1: using this term after my article, and I tried to
27:58
Speaker 1: correct myself and use it more. Is I really truly
28:01
Speaker 1: believe in it in the context of feminism and white feminism.
28:07
Speaker 1: I'm sure there are a lot of amazing white feminists
28:09
Speaker 1: out there, But what I found problematic is how prescriptive
28:14
Speaker 1: white feminism is. Right. I don't think it meets people
28:20
Speaker 1: where they are in their empowerment journey. Right, So wherever
28:25
Speaker 1: I am in my empowerment journey, as a Muslim woman
28:28
Speaker 1: of color, as somebody off Pakistani descent, meet me there,
28:33
Speaker 1: don't impose your idea of how empowerment, emancipation, freedom, equality
28:42
Speaker 1: should look like for me, because my identity has so
28:48
Speaker 1: many other dimensions and lived experiences that combine that intersect
28:56
Speaker 1: and make it more complex for me to be who
28:59
Speaker 1: I am in the ways you want me to be.
29:02
Speaker 1: And that's why I find white feminism problematic at times. Absolutely. Yeah,
29:09
Speaker 1: I think that's something that we've often talked about. We
29:12
Speaker 1: got a course correction at the very beginning when the
29:15
Speaker 1: Black Lives Matter occurred and uh as well as the
29:20
Speaker 1: death of George Floyd. We all had this conversation and
29:23
Speaker 1: we started with a book that was recommended to me
29:25
Speaker 1: because I have a white family who is very conservative
29:28
Speaker 1: and so we're very at the opposite spectrums. Um that
29:31
Speaker 1: has kind of heard our relationship. And the book was
29:34
Speaker 1: White Fragility, but it was written by a white woman,
29:36
Speaker 1: and we got we got called out real quickly. They're like, hey,
29:39
Speaker 1: this is probably not the book that you should and
29:41
Speaker 1: and an understanding this book is for white people. We
29:45
Speaker 1: did riot it that was written for white people, and
29:47
Speaker 1: that was kind of our thought process but yeah, as
29:49
Speaker 1: a bigger platform, we should be uplifting the black women
29:53
Speaker 1: who have already written and written and written so many
29:56
Speaker 1: books and so many articles for us to lean on.
29:58
Speaker 1: And like we had to kind of come back and
29:59
Speaker 1: correct ourselves, like you are absolutely should we should we
30:02
Speaker 1: do this and and understanding we have to go to
30:05
Speaker 1: the bottom of or to the beginning of those who's
30:08
Speaker 1: already been working on this narratives and not allow for
30:13
Speaker 1: the other two are maybe cashing in. I don't think
30:15
Speaker 1: that was the intention, but it kind of feels like
30:17
Speaker 1: could be cashing in absolutely, And by promoting those narratives
30:23
Speaker 1: and internalizing them, manifesting those narratives, we are saying that
30:28
Speaker 1: other people from different communities, ethnic cultural backgrounds, they have agency,
30:34
Speaker 1: they have voice. What they don't have is the platform.
30:39
Speaker 1: What they don't have is other people holding spaces for them.
30:43
Speaker 1: And that's where I find it extremely problematic when I'm
30:46
Speaker 1: being taught how to live my life by somebody who's
30:49
Speaker 1: never lived my life. Right. So, in the article I
30:54
Speaker 1: talked about how white feminism can be problematic when it's
30:57
Speaker 1: imposed on people in countries like Pakistani, on Iraq, Juanistan,
31:02
Speaker 1: I talked about a lot of white feminists that I
31:04
Speaker 1: disagree with. But there's something else. And I was thinking
31:07
Speaker 1: about this before the interview because you guys mentioned you'll
31:11
Speaker 1: talk about feminism in general. And something that really struck
31:18
Speaker 1: me in ways that I never thought it would was
31:21
Speaker 1: this incident that happened in in Central Park in New York.
31:26
Speaker 1: Remember Amy Cooper who was walking her dog and she
31:30
Speaker 1: called police on this black birdwatcher who was just there
31:35
Speaker 1: and she didn't have her dog on the leash, and
31:38
Speaker 1: he just pointed out that your dog is not on leash.
31:41
Speaker 1: And that incident is quintessentially how sometimes white liberal women
31:49
Speaker 1: use their power right to harm other communities. She knew
31:55
Speaker 1: exactly what she was doing by calling police on Christian Cooper.
31:59
Speaker 1: She knew exactly to repercussions and then to have the
32:03
Speaker 1: audacity to say I'm not racist. Really, that's messed up.
32:12
Speaker 1: She knew the power her tears would have, right, which
32:17
Speaker 1: we're seeing constantly and now and make a joke about
32:19
Speaker 1: Cairns and Karens are very offended by that. Actual people
32:24
Speaker 1: name Karen's. Apologies to them, But that's kind of where
32:27
Speaker 1: that narrative came in because we had to like it again,
32:31
Speaker 1: I think that even though that was offensive to a point,
32:33
Speaker 1: we also had to make it a joke because it's
32:35
Speaker 1: too much of a reality that is white women tears.
32:39
Speaker 1: It's dangerous. It is dangerous for for so many people
32:43
Speaker 1: of color, specifically black men men of color, and we
32:46
Speaker 1: we have to have that conversation of like, why it
32:48
Speaker 1: is it there? Now? We found something for you to
32:50
Speaker 1: be offended by, but we had to uh pull it
32:53
Speaker 1: down a bit, take the seriousness out of it. Again,
32:56
Speaker 1: not we, but like in general marginalised communities, is that
32:58
Speaker 1: same story of trying to kind of make it comfortable
33:01
Speaker 1: and make it almost normalized, which is also very dangerous
33:04
Speaker 1: in that conversation. Um, yeah, and I love the article
33:08
Speaker 1: in itself that you are so very blunt, I know,
33:10
Speaker 1: and calling it out. I love that. That's us, that's us.
33:13
Speaker 1: We asked a hundred percent stand on that because it
33:17
Speaker 1: needs to happen, and we have to be able to
33:19
Speaker 1: have that conversation and being able to call others out
33:24
Speaker 1: and ourselves out when it happens. I mean, all of
33:29
Speaker 1: us have been racist at times. I've said this in
33:32
Speaker 1: the past. If if I think I've never demonstrated some
33:39
Speaker 1: racist views, whether consciously or subconsciously, I don't even believe
33:44
Speaker 1: in that subconscious idea of it. But still approximation to whiteness,
33:48
Speaker 1: our willingness to approximate to whiteness also makes you racist
33:52
Speaker 1: in ways that you don't even realize. So yes, of
33:54
Speaker 1: course South Aginese stage in communities are racist in so
33:58
Speaker 1: many ways. At the very least, they suffer from problems
34:04
Speaker 1: like colorism, and again calling it out and saying, okay,
34:09
Speaker 1: this is bad, but what we're doing is also bad.
34:11
Speaker 1: And we may say it's the result of colonialism and
34:15
Speaker 1: it's our colonial hangover or whatever it may be. But
34:19
Speaker 1: if it is harming other communities, and if we are
34:22
Speaker 1: complicit in perpetuating those harmful paradigms, then we need to
34:28
Speaker 1: be accountable. Whether we were at the you know, at
34:35
Speaker 1: the outset or not, we should be held accountable as well. Yes,
34:54
Speaker 1: A Smith had said, this show has been around a
34:55
Speaker 1: long time and the conversation has shifted so much, and um,
35:03
Speaker 1: as we are learning and as we are like trying
35:06
Speaker 1: to correct um and be better all the time, be
35:09
Speaker 1: better and more inclusive. We've also we have our listeners
35:12
Speaker 1: as well. We've come with this journey with us who
35:15
Speaker 1: have pointed these things out who have done the work
35:18
Speaker 1: or like like sent us like, oh I wrote this article,
35:21
Speaker 1: like which is amazing, that's so cool listeners that you
35:23
Speaker 1: do that. But we also get, um some hate, like
35:28
Speaker 1: you know, we get we get some backlash from people
35:32
Speaker 1: who I'm sure of like never literally never listened, but
35:35
Speaker 1: from some people who have as well. And um, I'm
35:38
Speaker 1: just curious if you've if that's something you've experienced, and
35:40
Speaker 1: if so, how do you deal with it? And you honestly,
35:43
Speaker 1: I don't be attention to one. I just I think
35:47
Speaker 1: I'm just I guess I'm scared to even be attention
35:51
Speaker 1: because I feel if I did, then it would prevent
35:55
Speaker 1: me from being myself. And I'm I've just embarked on
35:59
Speaker 1: this journey after a long time, and I don't want
36:03
Speaker 1: to stop. So I am just going to you know,
36:06
Speaker 1: block those noises. And if people think that I'm being
36:11
Speaker 1: ungrateful or if I don't understand something or you know, again,
36:16
Speaker 1: go back to where you came from. Good for them,
36:24
Speaker 1: You're turned you do the same you came from. Last
36:30
Speaker 1: I checked Native American? Are you yes? I love that. Yeah,
36:37
Speaker 1: that's definitely something that we're trying to I'm trying any
36:41
Speaker 1: any does that's a little better. I'm a little newer
36:43
Speaker 1: to the thing and trying to navigate what it looks
36:46
Speaker 1: like to be a public voice. And then also having
36:50
Speaker 1: people who disagree or and just don't like you, uh,
36:53
Speaker 1: just don't like the way I speak. I get that
36:54
Speaker 1: all often, um, which is what it is, and you
36:57
Speaker 1: kind of just want to be like, then don't listen.
36:59
Speaker 1: It's not it's not that hard. Actually, this is not
37:02
Speaker 1: like the radio. You actually could just off and find
37:05
Speaker 1: something else exactly. If you're making this choice, if you're
37:11
Speaker 1: being intentional about it, then be open to what we
37:14
Speaker 1: have to say. Look, I have an accent, and I
37:19
Speaker 1: mess up my v's and w's. And I'm okay with
37:22
Speaker 1: that because I speak five languages, right, it's fine, and
37:29
Speaker 1: I have a way more knowledge than you. But it's interesting.
37:33
Speaker 1: I do mess up my v's and w's. I don't
37:36
Speaker 1: know why I do that. Yeah, I do l and
37:39
Speaker 1: rs a little bit. And you know, it's funny because
37:41
Speaker 1: my dad, he's very well worst and all, and growing
37:45
Speaker 1: up he would I would mess up my v's and w's,
37:50
Speaker 1: and I remember my dad always pointed it out, but
37:53
Speaker 1: he never told me what to do with it. It's
37:56
Speaker 1: like pointing it out. Do you think I don't say
38:00
Speaker 1: it correctly? Then tell me how to say it. Then
38:03
Speaker 1: what's the correct way? What's the correct way? Don't that
38:06
Speaker 1: to your kids, you know? And I love that that
38:11
Speaker 1: You've talked about this a couple of times, and I
38:12
Speaker 1: know you've talked about it on your show, but about um,
38:16
Speaker 1: your accident, about people you whether it's they hold a
38:19
Speaker 1: bias against you because of your accident or they feel
38:21
Speaker 1: a certain type of way um, and I think you
38:24
Speaker 1: are so you're one of the few. And I love
38:26
Speaker 1: it actually talk actually talks out loud about it and
38:28
Speaker 1: being proud of the fact that, yeah, this is not
38:31
Speaker 1: my native tongue, but I can speak it fluently, so
38:33
Speaker 1: what you know, It's interesting. It's interesting because I never,
38:40
Speaker 1: as far as I can recall, I was never conscious
38:43
Speaker 1: of my accent. And this may be me being naive
38:47
Speaker 1: or whatever, but other people would point out things like, oh,
38:51
Speaker 1: you know, you're starting a podcast, which is a very
38:55
Speaker 1: you know, it's an audio medium. Do you think people
38:58
Speaker 1: will be okay with your accent? And I was like, well,
39:02
Speaker 1: I love my accent and if they don't, then as
39:06
Speaker 1: you said, don't listen. But at the end of the day,
39:10
Speaker 1: when I came to the US and over the years,
39:13
Speaker 1: I realized how traumatic it can be for people who
39:18
Speaker 1: have accent. They are unable to speak, they are conscious
39:23
Speaker 1: of how they interact with others. And I feel so
39:29
Speaker 1: sad that we would make other people feel that way
39:34
Speaker 1: just because English is not their native language. What the
39:37
Speaker 1: guys don't do it? M yeah, seriously, like the way
39:46
Speaker 1: people on the internet that they can just well, I
39:50
Speaker 1: mean in real life as well, but in this particular
39:53
Speaker 1: conversation about podcasting, there's so much judgment around women's voices
39:57
Speaker 1: and then any intersection around that, it's bigger, bigger, and
40:01
Speaker 1: I just like, stop, it's bast legs. It's just like
40:08
Speaker 1: so easy. You don't have to even write. Why are
40:11
Speaker 1: you writing? Like there's no just go on, Like I
40:13
Speaker 1: have many things that I don't like, many of people
40:16
Speaker 1: that I'm thinking I probably won't get along with them,
40:18
Speaker 1: but I don't have to write about it. That's such
40:21
Speaker 1: a loss of energy. Why would you want to put
40:25
Speaker 1: that energy out? Why something like to be nasty? That's
40:29
Speaker 1: there just like that, um, And it's sad because they
40:34
Speaker 1: lose so much they lose out on so much when
40:36
Speaker 1: you're being negative, right right, Yes, it is true, and
40:41
Speaker 1: that's something like um speaking of I love what you
40:45
Speaker 1: said earlier about like the younger generation like giving no
40:48
Speaker 1: and I love that we're seeing more and more marginalized
40:52
Speaker 1: people when of color, especially come into the podcasting space,
40:55
Speaker 1: which for so long has been predominantly white, predominantly man.
40:58
Speaker 1: It is changing. It's very slow, but it is changing.
41:00
Speaker 1: That makes me very very happy. And I when people
41:03
Speaker 1: used to ask me, because I've been podcasting for ten years,
41:06
Speaker 1: like what advice I would give, I used to kind
41:10
Speaker 1: of hesitate because I'd be like, well, you're gonna people
41:15
Speaker 1: are gonna be mean to you. Like I want to
41:17
Speaker 1: set the reality of it and I want you to
41:19
Speaker 1: know it, and I want you to take care of
41:20
Speaker 1: your mental health. And I think that's a thing that
41:24
Speaker 1: we have to tell people. But I like that now
41:26
Speaker 1: it seems like you said, like you just don't listen,
41:28
Speaker 1: you like, tune out that noise. I wish we didn't
41:30
Speaker 1: even have to do that, but I do like that
41:33
Speaker 1: that's happening, seeing this space expand to include these such
41:38
Speaker 1: necessary voices and life experiences. But for you, if you
41:43
Speaker 1: had to give advice to people listening who are like, oh,
41:46
Speaker 1: maybe I have I have a good story to tell,
41:48
Speaker 1: I haven't heard it, or I haven't heard it in
41:50
Speaker 1: this way. What advice would you give? I would say, first,
41:54
Speaker 1: ask yourself, why do you want to launch it? I
41:57
Speaker 1: think why is the most important thing for me. It
42:00
Speaker 1: was clear why I wanted to. And when we know
42:04
Speaker 1: the why, then we are more committed because then it's
42:07
Speaker 1: not like, oh, you you know everybody is doing it,
42:09
Speaker 1: so I'm doing it. That's one. Be persistent. It's unfortunate.
42:14
Speaker 1: But the more content you produce, the more people will
42:18
Speaker 1: get to know your work and they will come back.
42:21
Speaker 1: And there are going to be moments of frustration and
42:24
Speaker 1: anger and anxiety and vulnerability. Accept them, internalize them. They
42:30
Speaker 1: will fuel you. It's okay, you know, just I think
42:33
Speaker 1: in America, something that really bothers me is that we
42:37
Speaker 1: don't value vulnerability. We don't value you know, being scared.
42:44
Speaker 1: It's somehow conflated with weakness, and all of that is good.
42:47
Speaker 1: Vulnerability is good. Good to do that. And I will
42:52
Speaker 1: also say something to listeners although and you didn't ask
42:56
Speaker 1: me to, but I will still U support different voices
43:02
Speaker 1: it's a difficult medium. There are more than two million
43:05
Speaker 1: podcasts out there, and some people are privileged. I consider
43:09
Speaker 1: myself to be privileged to be able to sustain it
43:12
Speaker 1: for so long being an independent podcasters. A lot of
43:16
Speaker 1: people do an amazing job creating content, but they can't
43:21
Speaker 1: sustain it, and if they can't sustain it, you won't
43:23
Speaker 1: hear from them, and that is key and so crucial
43:30
Speaker 1: to making sure that these voices continue within this ecosystem
43:36
Speaker 1: um Otherwise people give up. Yeah, that's great advice, because
43:42
Speaker 1: when people give up, we lose those stories and they're
43:44
Speaker 1: exactly yeah. Yeah, well, thank you, thank you, Thank you
43:49
Speaker 1: for sharing that. Before we wrap up, is there anything
43:51
Speaker 1: else you want to say? We'll give you the whole
43:53
Speaker 1: spotlight so you can shout out where listeners can find
43:55
Speaker 1: you and everything. But thank you for giving me this space.
43:58
Speaker 1: Thank you for this wonderful conversation. I felt as if
44:01
Speaker 1: I was talking to do friends that I just met,
44:06
Speaker 1: And I'm so glad that Alexandra was able to connect us.
44:10
Speaker 1: She is so nice and sweet and I'm glad that
44:16
Speaker 1: I know her. And to my awesome team and everybody
44:19
Speaker 1: who listened, and to everyone who listens to Annie and
44:23
Speaker 1: Samantha's podcast. Um yeah, yeah, yeah, shout out to Alexandra.
44:30
Speaker 1: She is doing her thing, making sure those podcasts are
44:33
Speaker 1: getting out and that these voices are being her is
44:36
Speaker 1: a great job, Alexandra. Yes, yes, it's It's so important
44:41
Speaker 1: to recognize the people behind who are making this all
44:45
Speaker 1: this happen that we're hearing. Um, so I do love that.
44:49
Speaker 1: I love that. Um, I love that you said we
44:51
Speaker 1: often are trying to like make friends on this show.
44:53
Speaker 1: It's sort of a low key thing. That was the
44:57
Speaker 1: whole my background and getting onto the podcasts, Like I
45:00
Speaker 1: just want to make coold friends. So this is how
45:02
Speaker 1: I'm gonna make friends. Were I'm we're friends. Were just
45:05
Speaker 1: saying we're friends now and we would love to have
45:08
Speaker 1: you back, because because we did have to also estimate
45:11
Speaker 1: that side, we had to really like narrow it down.
45:13
Speaker 1: There were just so many topics we could have discussed,
45:15
Speaker 1: Like you, I wanted to talk about that White Savior article.
45:18
Speaker 1: I want to talk about I just want all of them.
45:21
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that would be so much fun. We could
45:25
Speaker 1: have like WhatsApp group chat or something and then all
45:29
Speaker 1: of these topics and then we're like come back on
45:32
Speaker 1: so we want to have a discussion on it. Yeah,
45:34
Speaker 1: I'm going to do that. This is gonna happen. Awesome.
45:38
Speaker 1: I love it well. In the meantime, where can the
45:41
Speaker 1: listeners find you on every streaming platform and um so immigrantly.
45:50
Speaker 1: Instagram handle is at immigrantly pot our, Twitter is at
45:54
Speaker 1: immigrantly underscore pod and my Twitter handle is at s
45:59
Speaker 1: w K ham k h a M. Yeah again, thank
46:04
Speaker 1: you so much for having me and to all the
46:07
Speaker 1: listeners while listening, Yes, thank you so much for coming on.
46:11
Speaker 1: It was a delight and we can't wait to have
46:14
Speaker 1: you back. And listeners go go check out and support immigrantly.
46:18
Speaker 1: If you don't already and you can find us, you
46:21
Speaker 1: can email us at stuff with your Mom, stuff at
46:23
Speaker 1: I hurt meia dot com. You can find us on
46:25
Speaker 1: Twitter at most of podcast or on Instagram at stuff
46:27
Speaker 1: I Never Told You and TikTok as well New TikTok Whoo.
46:32
Speaker 1: Thanks it's always super super producer, Christina, Thank you Christina,
46:35
Speaker 1: and thanks to you for listening Stuff I'll Never tell
46:37
Speaker 1: these protection of I High Radio. For more podcasts for
46:39
Speaker 1: my heart Radio, you can check out The High Radio,
46:40
Speaker 1: ap Apple podcast or redul listen to favorite shows,