Latest / The Bechdel Cast / Mr. and Mrs. Smith (2005)

Transcript

Mr. and Mrs. Smith (2005) · The Bechdel Cast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hello listeners, Caitlin here dropping in at the top of
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: the episode to give you one final reminder about the
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Shrek Tannek tour which starts next week. And you're also
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: about to find out that this is my birthday episode.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: So if you would like to give me the most
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: wonderful birthday gift of all, you can do so by
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: buying tickets to the shows on this tour, which are
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: two shows in London on May twenty second, followed by
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: a show in Oxford with the Saint Audio Podcast Festival
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: on May twenty fourth, then Edinburgh on May twenty sixth,
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: Manchester on May twenty eighth, and Dublin on May twenty ninth.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: Right now, there are still a few tickets available for
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: all of these shows, and it would just really mean
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: the world if you came out to see us live.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: We have so much fun, goofy stuff planned, stuff you've
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: never seen or heard before. So do yourself a favor.
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: Do not miss these shows, which you can buy tickets
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: to at link tree slash Bechdel Cast. We will see
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: you there. We are so freaking excited. The other thing
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: switching gears here, but the other thing that we want
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: to do at the top of the episode is to
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: place a content warning for domestic abuse and violence, as
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: that is a component of our discussion on this episode.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: Enjoy the episode.
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: On the Bechdelcast, the questions ask if movies have women
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy? Zeff and
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: vest start changing with the Bechdel Cast.
• 1:47
  Speaker 3: Hey Caitlin, Hey Jamie, are you telling me that for
• 1:50
  Speaker 3: the last six or seven years you've also been podcasting
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: in secret? Well?
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: Gee, I don't know. I'm gonna be really secretive about it.
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: I guess the only way to get to the bottom
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: of it.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: Is to kill each other, or to join forces and
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: do a podcast together.
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: Wow, and revitalize our relationship by hot started. God, wouldn't
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: that be I haven't seen the reboot, but what if
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: that is what happens, mister and missus Smith just start
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: a podcast. That would be such a bummer. I really
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: hope that that doesn't happen. Did you watch the show?
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: I didn't watch the whole thing, but I saw the pilot,
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: so I can describe the premise based on that.
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: Okay, I read about it, but I feel like that's
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: sometimes what happens now on shows where they're just like
• 2:39
  Speaker 3: they're under thirty five. Should they have a podcast? Unclear?
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: Maybe anyways, do do do? Happy birthday to Caitlin. Maybe
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: that's exactly who.
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: Oh happy thank you today, Thank you so much. It's
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: true as my birthday. And that's why I picked this movie,
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: Mister and Missus Smith, two thousand and five, because it
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: used to be a movie I really liked and now
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: maybe not so much.
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: I'm excited and if this happens to be your first
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: time around here, because you're a huge mister and Missus Smith,
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: two thousand and five fan, Welcome to the Bechdel Cast.
• 3:27
  Speaker 3: My name's Jamie Loftus.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: My name is Caitlin Drante, and this is our podcast
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens using
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: the Bechdel Test just to get the dang conversation going,
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: except we wait till the very end of the episode
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: to talk about it. Yeah, it makes sense.
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: It really does, it really does. The Bechdel Test is,
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: of course, a media metric created by cartoonist Alison Bechdel,
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace Test because she co created
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: it with her friend Liz Wallace. Lots of different versions
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: of this test. The one we use.
• 4:04
  Speaker 4: For our purposes requires that two people, two characters of
• 4:09
  Speaker 4: a marginalized gender, speak to each other about something other
• 4:13
  Speaker 4: than a man for more than two lines.
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: Of dialogue, and it should be a meaningful exchange and
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: then we just sort of start the conversation from there.
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: It's thrilling.
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: So today's movie is, like I said, mister missus Smith, Jamie,
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: what is your relationship, if any, with the dang movie?
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: Easy? Nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing. I had never seen this movie.
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: I feel like I'm coming in completely cold because not
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: only have I never seen this, I had no interest
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: in the reboot because I had never seen this. I
• 4:49
  Speaker 3: really have never had much of an I mean, especially
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: as time goes on, as we'll talk about, I've never
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: really had much of an interest in Brad Pitt or
• 4:58
  Speaker 3: Angelina jo Lee action movies. So this was just never
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: going to be a movie I was good to see. Yeah, fair,
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: even though I think that, Like, I mean, when this
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: movie came out, he was like eleven or twelve, so
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: I feel like I should have been I feel like
• 5:16
  Speaker 3: that's a very like gossip magazine age, but I was
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: also not very invested in the media narrative. I don't know.
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: I guess this one just missed me. I just didn't care. Yeah,
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: and I have to say not to be a downer
• 5:34
  Speaker 3: at the top of the episode. I watched the movie
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: and I care less than ever. Yeah, I didn't like
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: it very much. Although I do get like watching it now,
• 5:43
  Speaker 3: I do get why people liked it at the time.
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: I get it. It's a sexy little movie, yeah, and
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: it has its moments. But yeah, just really was not
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: doing very much for me. Caitlin, what is your history
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: with mister and Missus Smith.
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: I saw in theaters in two thousand and five. I
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: was either a freshman or sophomore in college, so you know,
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: I didn't have the most refined taste, and I thought
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: this movie was awesome. I was like, Wow, look at
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: these hot people being so hot, and they're hot near
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: each other, and they're hot on top of each other,
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: and they're fighting and then they're kissing and WOWI wow.
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: These are all the very nuanced thoughts going through my head.
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: And I thought it was a fun movie. And then
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: I bought it on DVD and I watched it a
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: lot on DVD, and I still have the DVD brag
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: for that.
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: Your DVD collection is a thing of beauty.
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: I really don't stand by a lot of it, but
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: it is there.
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: That's growth. That's growth.
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: I feel like, thank you.
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: It's very alarming when someone's taste never changes. Yeah, if
• 6:55
  Speaker 3: everyone can vouch for their DVD collection from twenty years ago, folks,
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: we've got a problem. You've got to look in word. Yeah,
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: you know, there has to be certain things that you
• 7:05
  Speaker 3: cannot answer for.
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: M hm.
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: What was it like rewatching?
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: I thought that the storytelling was sloppy and the pacing
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: was really bad. Yeah, because since I first saw this movie,
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: I of course went on to get a master's degree
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: in screenwriting from Boston University, something I would never mention,
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: but I have a far better understanding of, you know,
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: narrative structure and pacing. And I was like, oh, this
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: movie like lags. There's a lot of like unnecessary repetition
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: in the exposition, Like this could have been streamlined significantly.
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: I thought the storytelling was just like not very well done,
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: especially in Act one.
• 7:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it was sort of those movies where I couldn't
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: tell if it was the writing or if I was
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: just bored. But I did find like a lot of
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: the establishing information confusing, right, I mean, this is just
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: movie logic. But I'm like, they didn't know, right then,
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: you guys are a joke. You're bad at your job
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: because you're not being very subtle.
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: They are pretty bad at their jobs. The other thing
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: about this movie is that so I teach screenwriting classes
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: using aforementioned degree that I would never mention.
• 8:23
  Speaker 5: Plus plus plugs, and the main assignment in my intro
• 8:30
  Speaker 5: level class is for students to write a film treatment.
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: And I send them various treatments as an example of
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: what to do and how to write a treatment. And
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: I would say the best one I have found after
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: scouring the internet is the treatment for mister and Missus Smith. Really,
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: a lot of the treatments are either that are available
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: online at least that I have access to. They're either
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: a James Cameron's script Mint, so it's like seventy pages
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: long and he basically just wrote the script but kind
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: of summarized it also, so those aren't useful, or their
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: treatments that just like aren't very good at encapsulating like
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: what the story of the movie is. So even though
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: this is like not a masterpiece of cinema, the treatment
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: for it is at least effective at being a treatment
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: and serving the purpose that a treatment is supposed to serve.
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: So I send this to all my students, and this
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: is kind of like the main one that we study,
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: and so I'm constantly rereading the treatment for this movie.
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: Wow. Yeah, So, like you actually have a consistent and
• 9:45
  Speaker 3: like rather intimate relationship with this movie.
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: This is wild, right, But I hadn't rewatched the movie
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: probably since like twenty ten, twenty eleven, Like it definitely
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: fell off for me, and it wasn't something I was
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: consistently watching after the first few years of enjoying it.
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: But I do have this kind of like intimate relationship
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: with at least the premise of the movie, and so
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: I was excited to go back and rewatch it to
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: see if it held up at all. And I would say,
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: generally the answer is no, although I don't know if
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: it was just the nostalgia, but I was like, I'm
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: still having fun. There's still some fun set pieces and sequences.
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: Definitely, and also I mean like there's certain like images
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: where well, I don't even know if this is necessarily true,
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: but there are a few images in this movie that
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: I'm like, they don't make shots like that anymore. And
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: I'm thinking of Angelina Joe snapping someone's neck basically as Catwoman,
• 10:43
  Speaker 3: then jumping off a building with an umbrella and getting
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: into a cab all in the space of twenty seconds.
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: I'm like, yes, now that was cinema. That was cinema.
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: That was pretty amazing.
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: The movie feels like a movie in that moment.
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: The movie was really feeling like a movie, because this
• 10:59
  Speaker 3: is not a movie in which magic is a factor.
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: But like Catwoman, Mary Poppins, I know there was some
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: sort of gadget, but I was like, no way, no way.
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: I know, wow, that's passive. Well, I'm excited to talk
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: about the story. I also did a fairly deep dive
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: on the meat because I mean that to me, when
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: I think of mister and Missus Smith, I think of
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: the media cycles around it more so than the movie
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: that I didn't care about, never saw. So we're firing
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: on all cylinders today because it was. I mean, it's
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: probably one of the most famous tabloid sagas of our
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: lifetime that has oh boy been, I think thoughtfully reappraised
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: many times in the last couple of years. And also
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: Brad Pitt is a domestic abuser. We simply have to
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: say it at the top of the show. Whose children
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: hate him? So you know, so much to talk about today,
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: a rich church uterie of discourse.
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: Indeed, shall we make a quick break and then come
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: back for the recap. Let's do that, Okay, and we're back.
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: We're back. It's still Caitlin's birthday and we are mister
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: and missus Smith. Can I just say before we even start,
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: how I've never like because I didn't outside of Brad
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: Pitt and Angelina Joliet, had no idea who is in
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: this movie. I haven't experienced this in a long time,
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: But when Vince Vaughn came on the screen, I experienced
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: a full body shutter. And I don't even like hate him,
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: but I just like, for whatever headspace I was in
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: when I was watching this yesterday, I was like, not today, No,
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: I can't do Vince Vaughan today. And of course he's
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: the worst character.
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: In the movie, Oh my gosh.
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: And you're like, why is he here? And then you
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: do a little research and you're like, well, it's the
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: same director as Swingers. That's why he's here.
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: Yes, that is why he's here. And he's playing a
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: character that was his like bread and butter during this time,
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: and also in Swingers era.
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: Misogynists, Piece of Shit, Loser.
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: Wedding Crashers, he plays basically the same character. Oh really Yeah,
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: he's just like spewing hatred toward women in every line
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: of dialogue, and that is his character.
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: Also on top of that, it seems like, I don't know,
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: I feel like you see misogynist characters who are meant
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: to look very like smooth, and then you see misogynist
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: characters and I'm just talking about this era of movies
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: who it's clear that they're being hateful out of rejection.
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: I don't like to see either. But right you know,
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: the very like he lives with his mom, which are like,
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: it's just all so lazily written.
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: And I feel like this movie falls somewhere in the
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: middle because we're not supposed to be like, Wow, he's
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: awesome and hilarious, but we're also like, he's still an
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: ally to the characters we're meant to be rooting for,
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: and no one ever calls him out on his behavior.
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: So it's just sort of presented uncritically and where I
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: think meant to laugh along at what he's saying.
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: I think in two thousand and five seems likely. I
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: don't know. I haven't seen wedding crashers, and I'm God
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: willing I'll never have to. If you're a mad trend,
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: and I hope you are, please never vote for wedding crashers.
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: But it's on the poll. I never want to watch it.
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: If I can get through my whole life with never
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: seeing wedding crashers, that'll be all right.
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree.
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: Anyways, mister and Missus Smith, what happens to this damn movie?
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: So we open on a couple's counseling session where we
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: meet a married couple mister and Missus Smith, that's the
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: name of them, who are John and Jane played by
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie. And we see them talking
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: to the therapist and they are not on the same
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: page maritally, and they then start to tell the story
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: of how they met. So five or six years ago,
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: they were both in Columbia during a flurry of police activity,
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: so they kind of come together to keep each other
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: safe and they hit it off and have a whirlwind romance.
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: A few weeks past, John is talking to his friend
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: slash colleague Eddie that's Vince Vaughn, saying how he proposed
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: to Jane. They're getting married. Meanwhile, Jane is talking to
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: her friend Jasmine played by Carrie Washington, who is too
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: good for this movie.
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: Kerry Washington is too good for so many of her
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: early roles. I just hope that this is the kind
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: of movie where you look at the budget and you're like,
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: I certainly hope she got a good paycheck.
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: I hope, but I also doubt.
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean I also have such doubts.
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: We have such doubts, much like Meryl, Much like Merrill.
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: I have such doubts.
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: Yes, So they are talking about John aka they're not
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: passing the Bechdel test, and Jane thinks that John is
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: a construction contractor. John thinks Jane works in tech. What
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: they don't know is that actually they're both assassins.
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: WHOA. Yeah, I mean so much of this movie plays
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: on I think very tropey views of what hetero marriage is,
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: which is you secretly hate each other, uh huh. But
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: also like this movie just takes it to such a
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: far flung extent where I'm just like, oh my god,
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: what is this writer's marriage. Like, we're like, obviously it's
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: not autobiographical, because then he would be cool. But the
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: fact that they're like they don't even know really what
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: each other does, I don't know, it's funny. It's weird, right.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: So I have a little bit of information on this, pulling,
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: of course, from scholarly journal Wikipedia once again hit me.
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: The movie was written by Simon Kinberg.
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: Who's written I think some of the most hated X
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: Men movies.
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: Also, oh, I didn't even realize that.
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: Throughout Dark Phoenix, I believe or produce Dark Phoenix.
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: Ooof well, he wrote and sold the script while he
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: was a grad student, and he had the idea for
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: the movie after listening to a couple of his friends
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: who went to marriage therapy, and he thought that it
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: sounded aggressive and mercenary, and he's like, hmm, this would
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: make an interesting template for a relationship inside of an
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: action movie. So he just like took his friend's marital
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: problems and then put that in an action movie.
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: Question mark, So I mean, I don't hate that, Like
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: I get what he's saying, but also I don't know,
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: it's weird. I sort of thought that, like, the therapy
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: was presented less hatefully than therapy often is in movies
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: of this era, So it's interesting to think that he
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: actually didn't feel that way. Well, who knows, but it
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: didn't read to be as like outwardly like I thought.
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: It was like a fun framing device that makes it
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: clear that he's a piece of shit, which I know
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: the movie isn't really capable of showing, but I had
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: no issue with the actual framing device.
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it works for me. So then we cut
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: to five or six years later, and again their marriage
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: is rocky and unaffectionate. They are not open with each other.
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: They still don't know what the other one actually does
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: for a living. Then we see Jane leave one evening
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: on an assignment. She goes to see an arms dealer
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: pretending to be a dominatrix, then kills him. Meanwhile, John
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: assassinates a few guys at a poker game. They both
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: make swift escapes, and they reconvene at their suburban neighbors
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: holiday party, and we're like, Wow, what a contrast between
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: their sexy lives as assassins and suburban life.
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: There's a lot of these coming out. I was thinking
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: about the bad sorry frank Oz, but the bad Stepford
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: Wives adaptation that came out like the year before or
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: after this. Like there's a lot of oh yeah, weird attempts.
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: I feel like, with like summery blockbusters to comment on
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: suburban life. And I'm sure there was a good one.
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: I don't know that I've seen it. Anyways, this is
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: another one where you're just like, sure, they're not like
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: other suburbanites, but like, that doesn't mean that we like that.
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: Well, Stepford Wives was the reason that Nicole Kidman, who
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: was originally considered for Jane Smith oh right, yes, couldn't
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: do the movie because she was too busy filming Stepford Wives.
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: Wow. Well, I guess this movie was technically more successful.
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: But I mean, I feel like there would be a
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: rift in the space time continuum if this movie's casting
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: went differently.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, oh my gosh, yeah, because I mean, I mean,
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: you would probably never have the Branjelina of it all.
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: Which might be for the best for all parties, but
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: also like, yeah, if the casting for this movie's leads
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: went different, America, as we know it would crumble, like
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: what would people have talked about?
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: True? In any case, So John and Jane then both
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: head off to work at their respective assassin offices, and
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: they both get the same assignment to kill Benjamin Dance
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: played by Adam Brody, who we've already seen receive an
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: assignment of his own, although we don't know what it is.
• 21:21
  Speaker 5: See.
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: That was my pleasant jump scare was Adam Brodie's appearance
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: in this movie had.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: No idea good for him, good for him for.
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: A second when I think you first see him from
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: the back, and I was like, if that is justin Bartha,
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: I'm gonna lose it. But regrettably it was not just.
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: I mean, I'm happy either way. I'm happy either way.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Now it's Adam Brody, and he's also being a
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: misogynist because he's like ordering a woman to bring him
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: a cup of coffee and that's not her job and
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: he sucks.
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah. And if there's one thing Adam Brody's gonna do
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: and he's typecast, it's be a piece of shit.
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: True.
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: I was like, Wow, it's really been twenty years of
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: Adam Brody being type cast as a piece of shit.
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: I wonder what He's like, in real life, we're seeing
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: a pattern, aren't we of male actors being type cast
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: as misogynists? Hmm, wonder what's up with that?
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: But the twist is, in this movie, we're supposed to
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: be rooting for at least one of them. Yeah, we're
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: supposed to be laughing, laughing, laughing. Yeah.
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: Anyway, So John and Jane separately go to a location
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: in the desert near the US Mexico border where they
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: know Benjamin is going to be, and they're planning their attack,
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: and then they both realize another assassin is there, and
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: they try to sabotage the other one because they don't
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: realize it's their spouse whoa Neither are successful in their
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: mission to kill Adam Brody. Jane flees the scene. Great, Yeah,
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: I think I just started calling him Adam Brody like
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: from this point on.
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: I mean, what the hell are we supposed to call?
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, Benjamin, you're right now, get a grip.
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: So Jane flees the scene and John takes her laptop
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: to try to figure out who that was. Meanwhile, Jane
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: is at Lady Assassin Headquarters Industries because everyone she works
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: with is a woman whoa feminism alert.
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: I mean it's a fun idea. It's a fun idea.
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: Although her boss, who they call Father played by Keith David,
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: is I think the only man and he's like, you
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: have forty eight hours to clean the scene, aka find
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: the other guy and kill him, or else she will
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: become the next target. So we cut back to John,
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: who finds out an address for the left and goes
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: there discovers that it's the office of his wife wa Meanwhile,
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: Jane is looking at footage of the other Assassin in
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: the desert and she realizes it's her husband. So they
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: both go home, pretending like everything is normal, but dinner
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: is very tense, and then some wine gets spilled and
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: they both leave under the pretense of they're going to
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: clean it up, but actually John grabs a gun, Jane
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: speeds off in the car and they part ways. So
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: then John goes to Vince Vaughn's.
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: House mistake number one.
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: Seriously, Jane goes to Lady Assassin headquarters and talks to
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: Kerry Washington. Both John and Jane are relaying that their
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: spouse is the other assassin and that they have to
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: kill them. Although they seem to be contemplating whether or
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: not they can go through with it. The idea is
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: they claim to not love each other, but you can
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: see that they seem to actually have feelings for each
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: other that they're not willing to admit. So John goes
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: to Jane's office to try to kill her, although he
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: can't go through with it, and she escapes. Then he
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: goes to her backup.
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: Office question mark, I don't.
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: I was also confused, And then she explodes the elevator
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: that he's in, except she didn't really mean to, and
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: now she's sad, and she goes to a fancy dinner
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: by herself and she's having a little tear falling down
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: her face. But surprise, John shows up because he was
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: in a different elevator I guess.
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: And I also was like the writing on that was
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: also so confusing. I was like, how did he get?
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: I also did. My favorite character in the movie is
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: the person that Angelina Jolly works with who kills Brad Pitton,
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: and then Angelina Jolly is like, wait, what which First
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: of all, you have to brief the room if you're bluffing. Yes,
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: So another example of just both of these assassins are
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: not very good at being assassins. I don't know why
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: they're so high up in assassining. Assassinating.
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I think the first one was good.
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: But just that there's like an unnamed character who's like,
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: what you said, you said goodbye? Yeah, it's like good
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: for her, she's good at her job. Promote her, right.
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: So anyway, John shows up to this dinner and they're
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: sitting together, guns pointed at each other, trying to figure
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: out how to proceed. They dance a violent but also
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: jornie tango, but then she tries to kill him again
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: by planting a bomb on him. Oops, and she escapes
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: and he takes the bomb off or whatever. They both
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: race home, but they're talking to each other on the
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: phone on the way, and John is trying to be sentimental.
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: It's clear that there are feelings between them, but they're
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: not really willing to fully admit it. They get home,
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: they're sneaking around, they're gathering weapons, and then there's a
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: big shootout. Then it turns into hand to hand combat,
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: but in so doing they realize that they can't kill
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: each other. And then suddenly they're making out and then
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: they have sex, and the passion is reignited. In their
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: relationship and for the first time, they're honest with each
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: other about their lives and their pasts, and they're telling
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: each other all of this stuff about who they really are.
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: But oh no, now there's a hit out for both
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: John and Jane and Vince Fawn gets notification to kill them,
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: and other assassins come after them also, So Jane and
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: John steal their neighbor's car and escape. There's a whole
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: car chase. They kill the people chasing them. Then they
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: go to see Vince Vaughn to get some intel on
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: who's after them and how many people, and he's like, basically,
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: everyone from both of your agencies are going to try
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: to kill you. If you separate, you have a shot,
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: but if you stay together, you're dead unless you can
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: find something that they want more than you. So John
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: and Jane kidnap the original target, Adam Brody, and he
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: reveals he was never actually the target that they were
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: because they're agencies found out that they were married, so
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: they set up a sting to get them to kill
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: each other, and Adam Brody was just the bait.
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: It's the classic I'm just an intern, I'm just a
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: little stinker and sure.
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so he was the bait and he still is.
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: The flock of assassins are approaching, so John and Jane
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: do contemplate splitting up and going their separate ways, but
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: they decide to stay together and fight, and they end
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: up in this like big box store for home goods
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: or something. It's like an Ikea.
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: Again, some attempt to like be better than the mall
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: or whatever. They're like, we're built different, screw the mall.
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: You're like, sure, whatever.
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: So they're in this store and assassins surround them, but
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: mister and missus Smith take out all of the enemies
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: and they win, and we cut back to them a
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: couple's therapy. Their marriage is in a better place because
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: now they're honest with each other and they fuck all
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: of the time.
• 30:14
  Speaker 5: The end.
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: Oh, that's the movie. Let's take another quick break and
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: we'll come back to discuss. Yay, we're back.
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: Okay, where should we begin.
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: I kind of want to briefly go through the various
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: other renditions of this narrative. Yeah, because there are a few. Yeah,
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: they're kind of relevant. I suppose I was more just
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: sort of interested in them. So there's a Hitchcock movie
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: from nineteen four forty one, a rare Hitchcock comedy. Fun fact,
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: I watched this movie back in probably like two thousand
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: and seven or something because I was like, I like
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: mister and missus Smith from two thousand and five, I
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: wonder what the Hitchcock one is like, and it basically
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: has nothing to do with really. So the story is
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: that there's a married couple where the woman finds out
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: that their marriage was never actually valid, and so they
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: have various arguments and eventually split up and she starts
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: dating another man, but her husband, David keeps following her,
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: just stalking her, and she keeps being like, no, I
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: don't want to get back together with you, and he's like, well,
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: what about if we do? And that's basically the story.
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: And then they realize that actually they are meant for
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: each other, and then they kiss at the end, and
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: I guess they get back together. So it's about like
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: a marriage that isn't valid and then they have to
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: decide if they want to actually be together as a
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: married couple or not.
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: So very little to do, Okay, a lot of logistics
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: in there.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: Yes, I thought the movie was pretty bad. I didn't
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: enjoy it at all when I watched it, and so
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: great that is that version. Apparently, there is an American
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: crime drama TV series that aired for like two months
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety six before it got canceled, oh, called
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: Mister and Missus Smith. It stars Scott Bacula and Maria Below. Okay, minion, Oh, okay.
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: First, that better be how she pronounces it, Maria below, Bello,
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: That one I didn't come across. I mean I came
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: across the original, but we interesting.
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: So the premise for this one, and I think it again,
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: only aired for like a dozen or so episodes, But
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: the premise is a spy known only as mister Smith.
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: That's Scott Bakula works for a private security organization known
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: as the Factory, and in the pilot a rival named
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: Missus Smith Maria below it comes entangled in a case
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: with mister Smith, and then after losing her job when
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: the mission fails, the Factory hires her and assigns them
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: to work together. And even though they often bicker and
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: they know nothing about each other's personal lives, including their
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: real names, they make a good team. So this one's closer.
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: Right, inching toward what we have?
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and then as I said, I watched the pilot
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: of the twenty twenty four TV series starring Donald Glover
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: and Maya Erskin, where two strangers independently agree to become
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: secret agents for a mysterious organization undercover as a married couple.
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: So in this series, they know that the other one
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: is a spy from the very beginning. It's just that
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: the marriage is a sham. They are not actually married.
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: I don't know how the rest of the episodes pan out,
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: but I do know that they like start to get
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: to know each other a little bit better. I don't
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: know if a romance develops or not. I didn't watch
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: that far into it.
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: I've heard good things about it. I think it's probably
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: worth watching, but this is famously not a TV or
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: reading podcast, and so we simply can't speak to it.
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: I feel like I missed the media cycle for that series,
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: and I am kind of intrigued. I think I will
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: watch it.
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: I liked the first episode. I would keep going, and.
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: I guess time will sort of tell. With the most
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: recent adaptation, I feel like, at least at the time
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: of this recording, this render of Mister and Missus Smith
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: is the best known yes because it was a really
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: really really successful movie, like kind of more successful than
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: I remembered. It almost made half a billion dollars twenty
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: years ago, which is just I guess everybody saw this
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: movie except for me. Like pretty wild, pretty impressive and
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: one of the kind of I think broiest creative teams
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: I've come across in a movie we've covered in a while.
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: And that's sort of saying something. We've got the director
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: of Swingers and Bourne Identity One, We've got the writer of.
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: Actually I did like this movie, but it is I
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: think bro Cannon guy Ritchie Sherlock Holmes.
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: Oh, I also like the movie.
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: He directed what I think is considered the worst X
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: Men movie of all time. You know, he's just kind
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: of slaying no. But it just took a really interesting
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: Broie Missus Smith never stood a chance, is what I'm saying. Yeah,
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: in terms of there being any sort of nuance there,
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: I kind of want to talk about the characters first
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: and then get into the media thing because I feel
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: like that's just like almost a whole other podcast. So
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: I don't want to forget to talk about the characters. Yeah, Kiten,
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: what do you what do you think that mister and
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: missus Smith. I don't care for them, and I really
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: don't care for mister Smith. I fucking hate the guy.
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he is awful.
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: To me.
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: What I was getting was like mister Smith, I mean,
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: I think he's way worse at his job. I think
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: that Jane is a more competent spy and you know,
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: a woman in an action movie. I appreciate that she
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: is the better one at her job, and that's a
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: job that in I'm sure real life and in movies
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: is commonly associated with a man doing that job. So
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: I appreciated that she was at least shown as being
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: competent at her job.
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: However, I think that as far as characterization goes, like
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: what even is her personality? I feel like she's so underwritten.
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: I feel like that for every woman we see, really
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: because I think it's like even more intensely contrasted between
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: Kerrie Washington and Vince Vaughn where they're playing for sure,
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: mister and missus Smith's respective best friends. And you can
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: just tell that the writer, I mean, Simon Kimberg very well,
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: maybe a nice guy, but I don't think he has
• 37:39
  Speaker 3: any grip on what women would say to each other
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: if left in a room, and it felt clear every
• 37:46
  Speaker 3: time that happened, which was almost.
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: Never, it was not very much. But even if she's
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: interacting with her husband, I feel like she just like
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: is a blah nothing like there's no personality there. At
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: least John gets.
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: Jokes, Yeah, John and Vaughn.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: John and Vaughn. Whether or not you laugh at them
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: is kind of beside the point. But they're written in
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: such a way that you know they're the funny ones.
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: They get the jokes. And meanwhile, Jane is humorless and
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: she isn't generating any of the comedy in this action
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: comedy aside from maybe one or two punchlines that they
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: give her, but generally speaking, like she's sort of a
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: nothing character, no personality, She's humorless. Meanwhile, the men get
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: to have fun. We were talking about this a lot
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: on the Knocked Up episode, where the men are written
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: to be funny and goofy and the women are like
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: humorless shrews, and I found that to be the case
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: for this movie as well.
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: I didn't find them to be I guess as like
• 39:04
  Speaker 3: shrewy in this movie as they certainly as they are
• 39:08
  Speaker 3: in like jud Apatow movies of the same era, I
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: guess I more found them to just be nothing right,
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: like nothing, which is really frustrated because you consider, like
• 39:18
  Speaker 3: Angelaine and jo Lee had an oscar like why didn't
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: you write her a part? Which I know happens to
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: successful actresses in particular all the time, but it's just like,
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: come on, yeah, and I think that you know, she
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: and Carrie Washington do everything with what they're given, but
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: they're not given very much. And I think that the
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: best moments for Angelina and Jolie, I feel like there's
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: references to her. I guess what her persona would have
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: been at the time, where like she's like this famous,
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: gorgeous woman with a history of like publicly being into kink,
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: so I feel like there are like references to that
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: throughout the day. It's like fun, I don't know, I mean,
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: and this happened all the time still, but like you've
• 40:01
  Speaker 3: been given this tremendously talented actor and she's just traded
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: like a body right and totally, which I feel like
• 40:11
  Speaker 3: early on in us doing this show, I like, I
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: feel like I had kind of like an undercooked like
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: she's being objectified and like, which is very, very often true,
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: and I think is often true in this movie. But
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: isn't an inherently bad thing to be sexy in a movie?
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: Like that's yeah, technically right. Part of the appeal of
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: this movie is two hot people fighting. Fine, great, Like
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: I'm seated for that, but it's just you also have
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: to be able to like do other things, or it
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: starts to feel like, well, you're just a body if
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: you're not given any sort of like if you don't
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: have a character, right, and so yeah, like Brad Pitt
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: is hot with a character, and Angelina Jilly is hot
• 40:53
  Speaker 3: without a character, and so you're just like, well, yeah,
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: that's they did the thing.
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: That's men writing a movie for you. I am speculating here,
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: but it feels so much to me as I watched
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: this movie that the direction that director Doug Lyman was
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: giving to Angelina Jolie and every scene was be sexier,
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: flutter your eyelashes, do something with your posture.
• 41:23
  Speaker 5: Do you know?
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: It was like the note was always like be sexier,
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: as if like that's a replacement for having a personality,
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: because that's what you're seeing in every scene. It's him
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: being funny, cracking a joke, being goofy whatever, and then
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: her just sort of like pursing her lips or fluttering
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: her eyelashes or something like.
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: That, which it's like she's great at for sure, but
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: also she has a fucking oscar. Like I think that
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: you see a lot of the same stuff like we
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: talked about truly, like probably over seven years ago now
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: the turmb Raider movies, where I think that she is
• 42:03
  Speaker 3: objectively less objectified in this movie than she is in
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: the turmb Raider movies. But that is not really a
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: yardstick that anyone should have to use. Yeah, So, I
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: mean it just feels like a classic example of especially
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: because while Brad Pitt is a piece of shit domestic abuser,
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: he's a good actor. Right, So you have two famously
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: talented actors at this time, the more decorated actor is
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: being given absolutely nothing, and you know, no one really
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: said much about it. And while this movie's coming out,
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: Angelina Jolie specifically is getting pummeled in the media, and.
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: So it's just almost like society hates women.
• 42:55
  Speaker 3: What it's misogyny and soost like everyone hates women. You know,
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: the show is about very obvious in this movie, this movie,
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: I mean if nothing else. It just feels like lazy
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: and it's characterization of women. It's just like neither director
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: nor writer talked to any women that they knew to
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: see this. I mean, I feel like that's also reflected
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: in how lazy the uh attempted, like Upper Crest suburban
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: commentary is in this movie where you know, Frank Oztepford
• 43:27
  Speaker 3: Wives isn't great, but it's at least specific in like
• 43:32
  Speaker 3: what it's trying to do. It doesn't do a great job,
• 43:34
  Speaker 3: but you can see the attempt. But it's just like
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: men be doing business, women be holding babies and wearing
• 43:41
  Speaker 3: ugly sweaters, and you're like, certainly like the rich upstate
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: New York white upper class like fair game, but like
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: it's not saying anything. I don't know, it was just bizarre.
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: I think one positive thing or maybe just one thing,
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: let's let's see, let's see this that I was surprised.
• 44:03
  Speaker 3: I guess that this wasn't present because I feel like,
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: you know, like there are a couple in their thirties
• 44:08
  Speaker 3: and their homeowners and blah blah blah, there is not
• 44:11
  Speaker 3: any baby storyline between the two of them. I was
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: sort of expecting that just because of what I am
• 44:20
  Speaker 3: trained to expect from movies about heterosexual couples that are
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: thirty or over. And there is like one scene where
• 44:28
  Speaker 3: like missus Smith is holding a baby and she's sort
• 44:31
  Speaker 3: of like I liked that, and I liked that it
• 44:35
  Speaker 3: never came back and you were just like, Okay, they
• 44:37
  Speaker 3: don't want kids, and I think that, given the fact
• 44:40
  Speaker 3: that their assassins and bad at it, that's probably for
• 44:43
  Speaker 3: the best. But that's like, yeah, one of the only
• 44:46
  Speaker 3: nice things I can say about this movie is I
• 44:48
  Speaker 3: kept expecting that to become a thing and it never did. However,
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: so many of the one liners, because like you're saying,
• 44:56
  Speaker 3: like he is supposed to be funny, and maybe in
• 44:59
  Speaker 3: two thousand five people, I mean people seem to be
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: laughing to the tune of half a billion dollars.
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: I mean yeah, but.
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: Like any like little comment, any quip that he'd throw
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: to her would be like I don't like your cooking,
• 45:13
  Speaker 3: I don't like you. Like they're also his wife codd
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: in a way that like it was annoying because it
• 45:22
  Speaker 3: was sexist and annoying, but it was also annoying because
• 45:26
  Speaker 3: it just was like bad writing, where like he's talking
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: to her, like the quality of her cooking was something
• 45:34
  Speaker 3: that we know is very important to her, when we
• 45:36
  Speaker 3: have no real reason to believe that that's true. Like
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: it just seems like again like the writers being like, well,
• 45:44
  Speaker 3: what would hurt a woman's feelings? And I don't know,
• 45:47
  Speaker 3: it's just so lazy and felt like dated for two
• 45:50
  Speaker 3: thousand and five, like it just sucked.
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: Yes, and he's just mean to her.
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: He's just mean to her, and then he's slutshames her
• 45:57
  Speaker 3: at the end, you know, just anything you could possibly
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: imagine that you wouldn't want. It's kind of the murderer's row.
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: Yes, there's all these examples of him. He like comments
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: on our cooking three times, like why, and then it's
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: revealed that like she doesn't cook, like the women at
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: Lady Assassin Headquarters cook for her or something. But you
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: also like see her preparing food. So I'm like, but
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: we are seeing her I don't know anyway.
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so like more bad writing and like inconsistent writing,
• 46:31
  Speaker 3: but also just like counting on your assumption that any
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: woman would be so hurt if her husband didn't like
• 46:41
  Speaker 3: her cooking, and you're just like.
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: Right, yeah, at least she's like I don't care what
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: you think about my cooking. Stopped talking about it. Right,
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: There are a few things that I don't hate, and
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: I think are probably why I connected to this movie
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: as much as I did in two thousand five. One
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: of them is her participation in the action where and
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: we've had this conversation many times at this point as
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: far as like, if a woman is allowed to be
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: in an action movie, is she allowed to fight? And
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: if so, what does that look like? And in this case,
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: again we see her being competent at her job. She
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: gets to do stuff. She's doing action movie things. She's
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: shooting guns, she's driving in the chase scene.
• 47:30
  Speaker 3: She's allowed to fight her husband.
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, that's an almost like separate conversation as far
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: as like men and women can they fight each other?
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: But before I kind of dive more into that, there's
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: just like things that she's allowed to do that often
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: aren't afforded to women in action movies. You know, there's
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: a scene during that chase scene where they're in the minivan.
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: John isn't able to take out the last two cars
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: chasing them, and so she takes charge and she's the
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: one to take out those cars, and there might be
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: some like possibly gendered things attached to this, But she's
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: the more sort of like meticulous planner assassin. That's her
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: approach to her job, whereas John is the more like,
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: oh I'll improvise. Oh I'm just gonna wing it. And
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: then that manifests and.
• 48:23
  Speaker 3: He is very often wrong.
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: He's often wrong, and she's usually right. But when she
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: calls him out for it, I feel like the movie
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: is framing those moments as like she's nagging him and
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: he got the job done, so what's the big deal.
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: So I was feeling notes of that.
• 48:44
  Speaker 3: I kept going back and forth on that, yeah, because
• 48:46
  Speaker 3: it's like, I think that you can read it both ways,
• 48:48
  Speaker 3: but I just don't see any reason to give a
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: generous read to this rider or director, right right.
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: So I appreciate her involvement in the action. It's something
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: that a lot of action movies before and since this
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: movie wouldn't afford even like a lady assassin to be
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: as involved in the action as she is. And then
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: like we were saying, yes, she and a man are
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: fighting each other, and this is another discussion we've had
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: many times, I think, most recently on maybe the John
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: Wick episode. But it's always been like, should we see
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: a man punching a woman in a movie? Can a
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: woman and a man fight each other? And I think
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: our conversation has evolved over the years, but at least
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: in this context, when they are both trained assassins and
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: their mission is to kill each other, it stands to
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: reason that they would be fighting, and the movie doesn't
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: shy away from that. Again, it shows her just as
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: competent of a fighter ye as him and their equals
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: as far as like hand to hand combat and gun stuff.
• 50:09
  Speaker 3: So and gun no, I agree with you. I think
• 50:12
  Speaker 3: that that's something that, like, I wonder, I meant to
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: look more into this because I feel like for years
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: and years, whenever men and women would fight on screen,
• 50:22
  Speaker 3: it would launch a bunch of op eds about like
• 50:25
  Speaker 3: should this have happened? I will say for this one,
• 50:29
  Speaker 3: and I'm wondering. I think that maybe it also has
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: to do with how much I was reading about Brad
• 50:36
  Speaker 3: Pitt and Angelina Jolie's relationship. It's only in one sequence,
• 50:41
  Speaker 3: but let me know what you think. It was bothering me,
• 50:44
  Speaker 3: and it could be a personal thing. But in the
• 50:46
  Speaker 3: scene where they're fighting in their house, I get it
• 50:49
  Speaker 3: like their assassins. I do feel like there's like erotic fighting,
• 50:54
  Speaker 3: there's wish fulfillment stuff. It's blah blah blah. They're basically
• 50:57
  Speaker 3: b dsming each other with any consent rules because it's
• 51:02
  Speaker 3: blah blah blah. Yah, I get it. I do feel
• 51:05
  Speaker 3: as if though, that like all of her moves or
• 51:08
  Speaker 3: the majority of her moves to me, looked like fight moves,
• 51:12
  Speaker 3: looked like martial arts right training, and I felt like
• 51:18
  Speaker 3: his moves often looked more just like domestic abuse and
• 51:22
  Speaker 3: shoving her against a wall and just throwing her over
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: a table, and like, I don't know, it bugged me, Yeah,
• 51:29
  Speaker 3: the fight choreography, like he did do martial arts stuff,
• 51:32
  Speaker 3: and she didn't break shit over his head. So maybe
• 51:34
  Speaker 3: I was reading into it a little too hard, but
• 51:36
  Speaker 3: there were like several things, especially because it's Brad Pitt
• 51:39
  Speaker 3: and we know he's a domestic abuser, right like that,
• 51:41
  Speaker 3: just like I don't know, Yeah, But then in any
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: other fight sequence they're in together, it's just that long
• 51:48
  Speaker 3: fight sequence where they're fighting each other where it just
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: felt like she was almost always doing clear martial arts stuff.
• 51:56
  Speaker 3: I felt like he was like half and half he
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: was very often just pushing her. I didn't like that
• 52:04
  Speaker 3: fight sequence very much.
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: That didn't ping for me because I didn't super notice it.
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: I'm not saying it didn't happen. I would just have
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: to like rewatch and look more closely at that. But
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: I'd imagine it's because of the whole Oh, he's the
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: fly by the seat of his pants assassin and she's
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: the meticulous one, and so maybe that also manifested in
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: the fight choreography. But then if you're a filmmaker making
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: that choice for the characters and for the actors, you
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: have to understand the implications of what that actually looks
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: like and like, what are the optics of a man
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: fighting that way?
• 52:47
  Speaker 3: I know, I felt like I was writing the op
• 52:50
  Speaker 3: ed into that as the time I'm I think, but
• 52:53
  Speaker 3: because I do think it is like if they didn't
• 52:55
  Speaker 3: they have to fight each other, like, it's also besogae
• 52:59
  Speaker 3: if they if they don't let her fight, like that's ridiculous.
• 53:02
  Speaker 3: It was just the way there was just like a
• 53:04
  Speaker 3: few choices that just felt yeah, I mean not even
• 53:08
  Speaker 3: necessarily unrealistic if you're fighting somewhat, but like, I just
• 53:12
  Speaker 3: didn't like it. I didn't like it fair, I don't
• 53:15
  Speaker 3: like this spuffee. Let's see what else I will say.
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: The one other thing that I appreciate on this watch,
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: although it's perhaps open to interpretation, but I thought it
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: was interesting that of the two of them, the man
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: seems to be the more sentimental one, or at least
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: someone who's more willing to express his feelings. Because there
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: are different scenes, such as when they're doing the tango
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: in the restaurant or when they're on the phone with
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: each other as they're both driving back home. He's sort
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: of like probing to see if she does have feelings
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: for him, and he's being a bit more open about
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: how he does have feelings for her, and he says
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: something like I thought you looked like Christmas morning, right,
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: And she's like, no, it was only ever just work.
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: And so she's like kind of the cold, calculated one,
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: and he's the one more willing to be warm and
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: like try to coax emotion out of her, which is
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: something you don't often see in totally hetero relationships, you know,
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: and it's obviously because of social conditioning, where men are
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: conditioned to be the more kind of closed off ones
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: emotionally generally speaking men are not taught how to regulate
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: or express their emotions very well. So I thought that
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: that was an interesting subversion at the very least.
• 54:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree, And then now I'm gonna be hate again.
• 54:56
  Speaker 3: And I was surprised that, you know, she like she
• 54:58
  Speaker 3: and Carrie Washington very frankly of like Carrie Washington's character
• 55:03
  Speaker 3: is like, well, you don't love him, so that's great,
• 55:05
  Speaker 3: and She's like, I know, I don't.
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: But then she like kind of like has a moment
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: to herself where she's like, but do I love him?
• 55:13
  Speaker 3: Right, which is like, I guess this goes back to
• 55:17
  Speaker 3: the fact that a character was not necessarily written for
• 55:20
  Speaker 3: Miss Jane Smith as being a core issue because outside
• 55:24
  Speaker 3: of them both being hot and obviously they have chemistry,
• 55:29
  Speaker 3: they like got together because of this movie. But if
• 55:32
  Speaker 3: you're just reading they like, I don't understand what she
• 55:36
  Speaker 3: gained by staying with him. I don't know. I mean,
• 55:39
  Speaker 3: we think this about couples all the time. I just like,
• 55:42
  Speaker 3: he's such a fucking asshole. She's better at what they're
• 55:45
  Speaker 3: doing than he is. And I understand that logistically, like
• 55:50
  Speaker 3: now it's them versus the world, but it almost felt
• 55:52
  Speaker 3: like a prison sentence for her where it's like good
• 55:56
  Speaker 3: that she wanted to stay with him, because it didn't
• 55:58
  Speaker 3: seem like the movie gave her room to leave him
• 56:01
  Speaker 3: really because of what their circumstances, and I just it
• 56:08
  Speaker 3: was weird, and also just the obsession that this movie
• 56:11
  Speaker 3: had with how much the amount of time that he
• 56:14
  Speaker 3: brought up how much they were or weren't fucking was incessant.
• 56:19
  Speaker 3: And then like literally the last line in the movie
• 56:21
  Speaker 3: is like, everything's great now because we fuck every day,
• 56:24
  Speaker 3: You're like great. I don't know. I just think if
• 56:27
  Speaker 3: it was in a different movie, I would be like whoo,
• 56:30
  Speaker 3: But this one just didn't hit for me. I did
• 56:33
  Speaker 3: like when Adam Brody wore the Fight Club T shirt
• 56:36
  Speaker 3: that was.
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: Finn I mean, haha, funny joke, get it. Yeah, I
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: have a few more things to say about the characters themselves,
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: and then we can sure move on. There were a
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: few other things that I didn't like and just felt
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: like it was leaning into gendered stereotypes and yeah stuff
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: you brought up him slut shaming her towards the end
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: because they're having a conversation where they're both saying a
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: number of people it's not clear, and I think this
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: is the joke. It's not clear if it's the number
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: of people they've had sex with or it's the number
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: of people they've killed. I think you can interpret it
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: either way, and like the uncertainty is the joke in
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: this situation. But either way, you can interpret it as
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: she's fucked three hundred and seventeen people or whatever, and
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: he's threatened by that because it's a lot more than
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: he has, and he's then making slut shamey comments about
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: her ear things that can be interpreted as slut shamey comments,
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: and and this is just not a funny joke. Conversely,
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: there's a scene where he as they're sort of divulging
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: new information to each other that they've kept from each
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: other all these years. He says something like I was
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: made before, and she gets very pissed.
• 58:03
  Speaker 3: Right, because that's what's supposed to matter to her, and
• 58:06
  Speaker 3: sextual partners is what's supposed to have matter to him.
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, her being jealous of another woman and another romantic
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: relationship he's had in the past, and she gets so
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: mad about it, and it just felt like a very tropy,
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: like pitting women against each other kind of thing. That
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: men do in their writing. There's that there's similar to
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: the he's obsessed with hating her cooking. There's another like
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: runner about curtains, where she's like, look, I got new curtains,
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: and he's.
• 58:44
  Speaker 3: Also which to me, says I wrote that that like
• 58:47
  Speaker 3: Simon Kinberg has never done a chore, because it's like
• 58:51
  Speaker 3: also like he doesn't even know how to write about,
• 58:54
  Speaker 3: like if you were a homemaker, what would be important?
• 58:57
  Speaker 3: He's just like a.
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: Curtain Like what do women do curtains?
• 59:01
  Speaker 3: Right, Like being a homemaker is and doing domestic work
• 59:04
  Speaker 3: in general is a very legitimate way to spend one's life.
• 59:08
  Speaker 3: But the job isn't curtain like. It's just so brain
• 59:14
  Speaker 3: was not on when writing any of the missus parts.
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: Down, certainly not. Also the trope of like her guns
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: are in the kitchen because women spend time in the kitchen,
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: and his guns are in a garage because men like
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: cars and they go into the garage.
• 59:39
  Speaker 3: And I think it's just like so much of like
• 59:41
  Speaker 3: their relationship is predicated on the fact that it is
• 59:45
  Speaker 3: safe to assume that every married couple hates each other,
• 59:50
  Speaker 3: which obviously isn't to say that like all marriages should
• 59:54
  Speaker 3: be presented as happy and easy.
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: Because that's not realistic either.
• 59:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, most people get divorced. But like just that, I
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 3: find it so depressing just to be like, they've been
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 3: married for five years and they're that miserable, they should
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 3: get divorced. Like if I was married to Simon Kinberg,
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 3: I'd be like, are you fucking kidding me? Yeah, fucking
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 3: kidding me?
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: Do then hate me? Yeah? I guess I appreciate that.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: The I suppose moral of the story is if you
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: are open and honest with your romantic partner, it will
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: lead to a healthier relationship.
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 3: That's true. That is true. And I think, even in
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 3: spite of the Kinberg comment that like, the movie is
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 3: not against couples counseling, and that it seems like it
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 3: actually amongst other things, like, yeah, the more honest they
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 3: were with each other, the more deeply they fell in love.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 3: And that's a nice precedent. It's all over the place.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Also, I mean, speaking about the guns again, there's
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: a part where after they've decided to like team up
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: and collaborate and their allies, John hands Jane a gun
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: and she's like, why do I get the girl gun?
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: And then he like hands her a different gun, and
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: I'm sure in two thousand and five they thought that
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: was like feminism or something lazy. Yeah, yeah, I didn't
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: really know what to make of that. But yeah, the
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: movie's full of different moments where you're just like, I
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: think they're trying something, or I think they're trying to
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: comment on something or challenge a trope. But for the
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: most part, it's just leaning into pretty gendered tropes over all.
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Ultimately, if you're looking for a commentary, she's just
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 3: not the movie to watch. I wanted to say, because
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 3: I felt like I was losing my mind because she
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 3: was then not credited and I didn't have the Wikipedia
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 3: page in front of me. I just watched the movie
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 3: straight through. Well, Bassett is in fact the voice of
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 3: mister Smith's boss, because I was like, oh, so weird.
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 3: It sounds like Angela Bassett, and it is because I
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 3: think you just hear her on the phone, right and
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 3: you're just like, whoa, And then who knows. I'm assuming
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 3: that she knew the director or something. But there's that.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 3: In terms of the other characters in this movie, we
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 3: don't really have much to talk about, I mean, other
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 3: than the respective best friend characters, which, as we were
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 3: hinting at earlier on, Vince Vaughn's character is just obnoxious.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 3: Every word that comes out of his mouth is misogynist.
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 3: We've talked about characters like this in the past. He
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 3: fucking sucks, and like you were saying earlier, Caitlin, like him,
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 3: sucking is his personality. But he has a personality which
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 3: we cannot say a Kerry Washington's character, Jasmine, who is
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 3: playing a very stock best friend character and I think
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 3: like also very much plays into the black best friend
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 3: trope where we know nothing about her other than she
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 3: is Jane Smith's friend and co worker and is there
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 3: to ask her questions and to ask her like plot
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 3: questions that set up Jane's also poorly written emotional arc. Yeah, so,
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 3: like you said earlier, like Kerry Washington, obviously, I mean
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 3: not only deserves better, but like Angelina, Julie very much
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 3: proven that she's way too good for this movie. Other
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 3: than that, I mean, this movie really does sort of
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 3: stay locked on mister and missus Smith. I don't really
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 3: know if I have much to say about any other
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 3: characters besides them, and they're best friends.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: Vince Vaughn gets more screen time than Carrie Washington does,
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: which is also telling easily. I think Adam Brody also
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: gets more screen time than Carrie Washington. I do like
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: the idea of an old lady assassin agency, but we
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: don't really know anything about it or what the deal
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 1: is there.
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 3: So a strong idea to introduce. Yeah, that was the
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 3: kind of thing. My note there was like I really
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 3: love that, and I wish there was more of it.
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 3: But also it's not like I want to know what
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 3: this creative team things happens there, and all women's Assassin
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 3: Squad would look like you know, there's better movies about it,
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 3: and some of them written by other misogynists. I'm thinking
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 3: about kill Bill, great movie about I guess majority women's
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 3: the Deadly Viper. Yeah, assassination Squad.
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: Four of the five of them are women.
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 3: Should we talk about the brandolina of it all?
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: Let's do it. I think you probably have more research
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: on this than I do. I just mostly remember like
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: the anecdotal stuff as it was happening in real time.
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 3: Actually, I wanted to start with that before getting into
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 3: the specifics. This is a sort of a detour into
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 3: a tiny you're wrong about episode I wanted to know
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 3: what your recollection was of that media cycle before I
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 3: talked about it.
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: Here's my recollection. I don't know how reliable this information is.
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 3: It's your recollection. So that's the thing. I feel like,
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 3: probably it's wrong, and that's interesting.
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: So I remember Brad Pitt and Jennifer Aniston being this
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: power couple that everyone was obsessed with and oh my gosh,
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: they're gonna make it and everyone loves them as a
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: celebrity couple. And then Angelina and Jolie enters the picture
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: by way of this movie, because this set is where
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie met, and I remember the
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: kind of media attention around this being that, oh, Angelina
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 1: Jolie is a home wrecker and she broke up this
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: amazing couple. I also remember something to the effect of
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: the reason that Brad Pitt and Jennifer Aniston cited as
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: splitting up had something to do with the fact that
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: she didn't want to have children and he did, so
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 1: I vaguely remember something about that being part of the
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 1: reason that they split up, but everyone was like, well,
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: it's obviously actually because he fell in love with Angelina
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: and Jolly instead yeah, I just remember that part of
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: it and Angelina and Jolie getting a lot of guff
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 1: for being a home wrecker. I didn't feel really one
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: way about it or the other because I've never been
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: a celebrity gossip person. I just like let it wash
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: over me and I don't pay attention and like, honestly,
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 1: until the news broke pretty recently, was it in the
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: past year that Brad Pitt was outed as an abuser?
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 1: The past year or two, I think.
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 3: In a major way. Yeah, in the celebrity gossip world
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 3: it was, which is a part of this story. And again,
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 3: like I'll say, for anyone listening for a comprehensive version
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 3: of this story, this is not the place. But I
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 3: think it became more commonly reported in the last couple
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 3: of years, but the story has been out there for
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 3: a long time. I believe that the assault.
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: That is think twenty sixteen.
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so the like as long as this show has
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 3: been like eight years ago, essentially, like I mean, and
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 3: who knows what a marriage ending, but that was sort
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 3: of the final straw. And when I think it's presented
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 3: that Angelina Jolie was like, this is not safe for
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 3: me or the kids, and we've got to get the
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 3: fuck out of here, right. Yeah.
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: So my point is I didn't know about that story
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 1: when it happened in twenty sixteen. I didn't either, and
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: until it was like sort of re reported post me two,
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: I thought they were still married. Like, I didn't even
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 1: know they got divorced. Like that's the level at which
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: I'm paying attention to celebrity gossip, so it's almost none.
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 1: I rarely care about it like that, It's just not
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 1: my thing.
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 3: Well, that's why I was curious, like what your memory
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 3: of the time was, because it was like, whether you
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 3: were interested in the story or not, you couldn't avoid it, really, Okay,
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 3: So yes, the truth thing is that these two met
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 3: on the set of this movie, began having an affair
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 3: while brad Pitt was still married to Jennifer Aniston, and
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 3: that he then left Jennifer Aniston and in quick order
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 3: was with Angelae Jullie. They didn't get married for years,
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 3: but there was also and I won't get too deep
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 3: into this, but there was pretty soon after they were
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 3: together they started having children and adopting children, and ultimately
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 3: I think that they have five or six children together,
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 3: either biological or adopted, and from what I have gathered,
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 3: none of these children want anything to do with brad Pitt,
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 3: and that's just the truth anyways, But just trying to
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 3: keep stuff in order. At the time, I feel like
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 3: you sort of got this very classic Madonna horror tabloid
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 3: story with Jennifer Aniston and Angelina Joe Lee. The two
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 3: essays that I'm pulling from here. The first was published
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 3: last year in Vox by Constance Grady. Brad Pitt was
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 3: the only winner of the Aniston Jolie tabloid battle. The
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 3: other is an older piece by a writer I really
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 3: really like, Anne Helen Peterson in BuzzFeed. Amember that from
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 3: twenty fourteenth's almost ten years ago, and that piece is
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 3: more of a deep dive on how Angelina Joe Lee
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 3: essentially had to like pr maneuver her way out of
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 3: this fucking nightmare yea, and eventually, at least at the
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 3: time it was published, seemed to have successfully done. So
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 3: both are really good pieces. I'd recommend checking both out,
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 3: particularly the more recent one. But essentially, I mean, and
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 3: I remember this even though I was eleven and should
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 3: not have known any of this, even though I wasn't
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 3: interested in it. Just you couldn't go to a grocery
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 3: store without being confronted with this story.
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 1: The cover of every magazine.
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, I feel like the story evolved
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 3: over time, and it started as you know, Angelina Jolie
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 3: is a man stealer, Jennifer Aniston is the sweet girl
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 3: next door. Angelina Jolie is this like vampy man stealer,
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 3: home wrecker essentially, which media of the time really played
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 3: into ways that she had either presented herself or been
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 3: framed in the past of like, you know, early Angelina
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 3: jo Lee kissed her brother and like wore Billy Bob
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 3: Thornton's blood around her neck, and like she was a
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 3: weird lady like and I think that anything she did
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 3: in her twenties, and she also had I don't know
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 3: a ton about her early life except that she is
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 3: the daughter of John Voight, who's famously a piece of
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 3: fucking garbage, and like, I believe they don't have a
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 3: relationship anyways. Sounds like a difficult upbringing, a kind of
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 3: like tumultuous twenties that she had, but also very successful.
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 3: She wanted to oscar for girl interrupted. But either way,
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 3: they're like okay, Jennifer Anison good, Angelina Jolee bad. However,
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 3: as time went on, that narrative didn't flip, but it
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 3: did change where once Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt had
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 3: a family and Angelina Joe which had already begun. And
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 3: I want to be careful not to like position any
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 3: humanitarian work that she's done as disingenuous, Like I don't
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 3: think that that is true. We don't need to get
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 3: into the weeds of like, well, what is it, you
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 3: know whatever. I do believe that the convictions that she's presented,
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 3: it's been at least on a long enough timeline that
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 3: whether you agree with the particulars or not, it seems
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 3: to be a big part of her life. But as
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 3: that became a bigger part of her life, and she
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 3: sort of was presented as less of a home wrecking
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 3: vamp and more of a mother of five who did
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 3: all of this work, you see the narrative flip. And
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 3: like all, Angelina Julie is not bad anymore. The more
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 3: she leans into motherhood, or the more the media leads
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 3: into the image of motherhood, she's presented better and better.
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 3: And meanwhile, Jennifer Aniston does not end up having children,
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 3: and she's presented as pathetic on a longer timeline. Yeah,
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 3: you're totally right that at the time, it was presented
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 3: that Jennifer Anison didn't want children and Brady Pitt did
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 3: so he found a woman who can give him children.
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 3: It turns out that this is also not true. She
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 3: had fertility issues and had them. I mean, I don't
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 3: cannot speak to the timeline that she but it wasn't
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 3: until like twenty nineteen where she gave an interview that
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 3: was like, there was this popular narrative about me that
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 3: like I didn't want to comment on because it's just
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 3: like fucked up and weird, because whether you want children
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 3: or not is a very personal decision and has nothing
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 3: to do with anything. And also it shouldn't have been
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 3: criticized if she didn't want children, but as it turns out,
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 3: she did, and it was also just this like big
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 3: traumatic lie. So it's, you know, one of the more
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 3: I think famous and fucked up media narratives. Because of
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 3: course in all of these, Brad Pitt is never presented
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 3: as bad. It's he was tempted or he was not
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 3: given the babies that he wanted, so who could blame him,
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 3: which is a lot of what the vox essay is
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 3: about of just like it was never even floated or
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 3: presented that he could be at fault for anything. It
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 3: has to be the fault of one woman or the other.
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 3: And there were t shirts sold and all this shit.
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 3: So I think, you know, Angelina and Jolie and Jennifery
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 3: Addison's career, you have to imagine mental health are affected
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 3: by that. And then on a longer timeline, Brad Pitt
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 3: and Angelina and Jolie have a family together. They get
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 3: married at some point, and he was an abusive alcoholic
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 3: person to her, and without getting into I think we
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 3: have referenced it on the show before and other Brad
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 3: Pitt vehicles. I don't remember which episode off the top
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 3: of my head, but essentially, he assaulted his wife and
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 3: berated one of his children in front of the whole
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 3: family on a plane in twenty sixteen, which resulted in
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 3: an investigation. It resulted in police reports, and ultimately it
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 3: was at least a contributing factor to their eventual divorce.
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 3: What that looks like now, It was actually in the
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 3: news as recently as four days before. We're recording this.
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 3: I think a lot of the reason even though post
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 3: me to, and I can't say exactly when I remember
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 3: first hearing this story for the first time, but post
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 3: me to this story was brought up again because I
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 3: think that it was reported at the time, but no
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 3: one took an.
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 1: Interest culturally, we simply didn't yeah, post me to.
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 3: So I guess anytime after late twenty seventeen, this story
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 3: comes back, but it does keep kind of disappearing like
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 3: it never stayed. It appears that the reason that is
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 3: is because Brad Pitt has been repeatedly suing Angelina Jolie
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 3: to get her to say less about this. Essentially, so
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 3: the story I'm pulling from Angelina Jolie's lawyers call Brad
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 3: Pitt's NDA request abusive in winery case, there's also this
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 3: whole business like they're rich and so they had a
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 3: winery business and they're in a fight with that. But
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 3: basically like he's finding all of these reasons to sue her.
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 3: Because I want to make sure I'm getting this correct.
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 3: A quote from a Vulture article by Zoe Guy from
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 3: a few days ago. Jolie's attorneys previously claimed Pitt wanted
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 3: her to sign an onerous and expansive NDA that would
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 3: quote cover Pit's personal misconduct, whether related to a Miraval,
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 3: the winery, or not, including the abuse allegations related to
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 3: an incident on a plane in twenty sixteen, in order
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 3: for Jolee to agree to sell her stake in Miraval
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 3: to Pit. When the deal fell apart over the matter,
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 3: she sold her shares elsewhere, So essentially he's suing her
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 3: for selling her shares to this winery she no longer
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 3: wants anything to do with because she doesn't want to
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 3: be involved in his life, and he attempted to make
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 3: it impossible for her to extract herself from their co
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 3: owned business unless she signed an NDA saying she could
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 3: never publicly speak about him being a domestic abuser, Which
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 3: how is that fucking legal? I couldn't tell you. But
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 3: she just sort of was like It appears that she
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 3: was sort of like fuck you and sold her shares
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 3: off anyways, and now he's trying to sue her again.
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 3: I think the Brad Pitt obviously has a very vested
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 3: interest in his image and does not care about anybody,
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 3: perhaps accept himself. Yeah, he is a bitch. I hate
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 3: him in the bad way. We talked about this. I'm sorry,
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 3: we talked about this our episode yesterday.
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 1: I want Monsters Inc.
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, in Munsters Inc. Go to the Matreon.
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 1: Bitch in a bad way, bitch in a bad way,
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 1: or bitch is in a good way exactly.
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 3: So, while there are you know, I'm sure plenty of
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 3: criticisms of Angelina Julie that have nothing to do with
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 3: this marriage. Brad Pitt very much the villain of this
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 3: marriage and still actively the villain of this marriage. I
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 3: want to just finally close by reading what their son
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 3: Packs posted on Father's Day to his Instagram story. He said,
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 3: Happy Father's Day to this world class asshole. You time
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 3: and time again prove yourself to be a terrible and
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 3: despicable person. You have no consideration or empathy towards your
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 3: four youngest children, who tremble in fear when in your presence.
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 3: You will never understand the damage you have done to
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 3: my family because you are incapable of doing so. You
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 3: have made the lives of those closest to me a
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 3: constant hell. You may tell yourself in the world whatever
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 3: you want, but the truth will come to light someday.
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 3: So Happy Father's Day, you fucking awful human being, and
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 3: so I see no reason not to go with him there. Yeah,
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 3: and to believe children of abusive parents. It appears, at
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 3: least at the time of this recording, it seems like
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 3: Angelina Jolie has a good relationship with all of her children.
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 1: They have six, By the way, I know that we
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 1: were not sure if it's five or six.
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 3: I was literally doing the mister and missus Smiths five.
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 1: Or children, It's yeah, it's six, because.
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 3: I think they had twins, And then I kept counting
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 3: twins as one, which is twin discrimination. And I apologize
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 3: to the twin community. But yes, it seems like Angelina,
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 3: or at least their children publicly have a good relationship
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 3: with her, and they also publicly fucking hate Brad Pitt.
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 3: So fuck Brad Pitt. I guess is the little bow
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 3: I want to put on that second.
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there are a number of movies that he is
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 1: the star of that I really like, and I don't
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 1: consume those movies anymore, or at least not to the
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 1: same extent that I was. But like you know, and
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 1: we've talked about, I'm never gonna be someone who like
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 1: separates the art from the artists. It doesn't necessarily mean
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 1: that I will refuse to watch certain things. I will
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 1: just be mindful of horrible people involved in the project. Yeah,
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 1: it varies project a project or you know, actor or
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 1: actor what you know. It's very much on a case
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 1: by case basis.
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 3: But and everyone's on like sort of a personal journey
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 3: right with that, Like, I certainly don't think anyone who
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 3: like would watch a movie with Brad Pittknitt is a
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 3: bad person. I think he's just personally Yeah, I think
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 3: as time goes on, I find him harder and harder
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 3: to stummitch.
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 1: Sure, And it's been a journey for me because like,
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 1: there was a long time where he was someone I
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 1: enjoyed very much watching on screen.
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 3: And he's a good actor.
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 1: Unfortunate he's a good actor, he is, and he's charismatic
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 1: and charming the way that a lot of scary bad
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 1: people are. And this was one of the harder ones
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 1: for me to be like, oh, I don't fuck with
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 1: him anymore. Fuck Brad Pitt.
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 3: The end, this movie passes the Bechdel testing.
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there are a few scenes in Lady Assassin Headquarters
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 1: Industries where but although are they ever not talking about
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 1: John Smith.
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 3: Let me triple check, but I think I clocked a
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 3: few like barely passes. I did technically pass, I would
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 3: say spiritually definitely not. So whoever's editing the Wikipedia page
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 3: these days sort of go with God. I would say,
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 3: yeah it technically I think may pass between Jane and Jasmine,
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 3: but spiritually know because neither of them are really characters that.
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 1: Were written true.
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 3: So it's challenging. Actually there's oh, this is one of
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 3: my favorites because there is a like old website that
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 3: we consult sometimes to check our own work Bectel test Dott.
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 3: And every once in a while you find a movie
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 3: where there is just a rich comment section where they're like, well,
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 3: sort of and then other people are like, it doesn't.
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 3: So jury's kind of out on this one that like
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 3: the official ruling of the website is no. There's a
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 3: lot of comments you're saying technically yes, I'd say, let's
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 3: just go with no.
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 1: I'm fine with that because either it's Kerry Washington's character
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 1: and Jane Smith talking about killing a man that's better
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 1: than nothing, but they are mostly talking about John Smith,
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 1: I believe, And then there might be an interaction between
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 1: Jane Smith and her neighbor, Missus Coleman. They're always talking
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 1: about the Colemans, and maybe something there passes. But again,
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 1: that's a very fleeting moment, a fleeting character, not plot impactful.
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 1: So I would say spiritually know the movie does not
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 1: pass the Bechdel.
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 3: Test, and possibly technically now yes, but what about the
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 3: most important media metric of all, Oh, do you.
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 1: Mean the Bechdel cast nipple scale, where we rate the
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 1: movie zero to five nipples based on examining it through
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 1: an intersectional feminist lens. I'll give this movie one nipple.
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 1: There are some things I did appreciate more at the time,
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 1: and still to some degree appreciate, which is the woman's
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 1: involvement in the action. I think a lot of other
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 1: movies that would have an assassin who's a woman would
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 1: still not let her do much. So I appreciate that
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 1: she's a far more active participant in the action than
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 1: we're accustomed to seeing, especially of movies from this era.
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 1: And there are a couple other slight subversions that I appreciated,
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 1: like the man being the more emotionally expressive, sentimental one
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 1: and not that like I'm advocating for women to be
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 1: closed off emotionally, it's more that a trope is present.
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 3: But it does happen and you never see it.
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 1: And you don't see it, and so I appreciate the
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 1: subversion of that trope. But by and large, it's a
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 1: movie leaning into gendered tropes and it's not as good
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 1: as I once thought. The movie was so one nipple
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 1: for the few things that I appreciate, and it goes
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 1: to Carrie Washington. Justice for Carrie Washington.
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 3: I am going to go half a nipple because I
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 3: don't really I don't have a nostalgia for it. The
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 3: more I read about it, the BRANDOLINASAKA, the more just
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 3: like a hostile agridge with it. It's not you know,
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 3: you cannot blame the movie itself, but spiritually I do.
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 3: And so I'm gonna give it a half nipple, and
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 3: I'm gonna give the half nipple to.
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 2: Know.
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 3: I'm gonna give it to Angelina Jolie. And with that, Caitlin,
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 3: Happy freaking birthday.
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much. If listeners want to do something
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 1: nice for me on my birthday, g me. You can
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 1: follow me on Instagram. I was just talking about this
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 1: on the Monsters, Inc. Episode, which may have already come
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 1: out or maybe it comes out very soon, but either way,
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 1: on the Matreon, right on the Matreon. Either way. I
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 1: am trying to do more stand up in LA and elsewhere,
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 1: and it helps to get booked on shows the more
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 1: followers you have. I don't necessarily like that that's the case,
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 1: but it is. But we live the fact of the matter.
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 1: We live in a society, So just follow me on
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 1: Instagram so that I can appear to be a legitimate comedian.
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 3: You are dufest wow thing.
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 1: I mean, I know that, but bookers don't. Anyway, Listeners,
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 1: thank you so much for listening to the show. And
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 1: you know, I just feel extra sentimental on my birthday
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 1: and finally free Palestine.
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 3: The Happy Birthday Kitlin.
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 1: Thank you. Follow us also on Instagram at Bechdel Cast.
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 1: There's our Patreon. Ooh, another little gift you could give
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 1: me for my birthday. If you're not already a Matreon subscriber,
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 1: go over to patreon dot com spetl Cast, where you
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 1: can get two bonus episodes every single month, plus access
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 1: to the one hundred and fifty bonus episodes on the
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 1: Matreon for five dollars a mom mentioned and our tour
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 1: kicks off very soon, so grab tickets to that if
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 1: you don't already have it at link tree slash Spectel Cast.
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 1: We're in various cities in the UK as well as Dublin.
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 3: And you know what, I'm not gonna plug anything because
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 3: it's your damn birthday, Happy birthday.
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 1: But people should listen to your new show, your new podcast,
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 1: say something about it.
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 3: Wow, only because you ask in your birthday. Yeah, please
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 3: check out if you haven't checked it out already, we
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 3: should be a few I guess two episodes deep when
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 3: this comes out. Sixteenth Minute is a new weekly show
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 3: doing that comes out every Tuesday. That's a different profile
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 3: every week of a different Internet character of the day.
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 3: So I believe this week our episode on the dress
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 3: just came out. Member, that was it the.
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 1: Dress that people either saw? Was it like white and
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 1: wet and gold or black and blue?
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 5: Right?
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 3: Yes?
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I'll never forget.
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 3: Never forget. Yeah. So every episode is like that, just
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 3: Internet things that have been ingrained in your brain against
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 3: your will. Every episode's about that, So check it out.
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 3: We're having a fun time over there, and it's also
• 1:28:23
  Speaker 3: produced by Bechdel Cast producer Sophie Lichterman, so very nice.
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 3: Enjoy your birthday, Kaitlin, thank you so much. Enjoy your day, listeners.
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 1: Yes, happy birthday to you also, and we'll be back
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 1: next week for more episode Bye bye. The Bechdel Cast
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 1: is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by Caitlin Derante and
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 1: Jamie Loftus, produced by Sophie Lickterman, edited by Mola Board.
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 1: Our theme song was composed by Mike Kaplan with vocals
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 1: by Katherine Voskresenski. Our logo and merch is designed by
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 1: Jamie Loftus and a special thanks to Aristotle Assevedo. For
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 1: more information about the podcast, please visit linktree slash Bechtelcast