Latest / Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast, Helping you create a profitable, sustainable law firm you love / Instead of ‘Selling,’ Get SELLected

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Instead of ‘Selling,’ Get SELLected · Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast, Helping you create a profitable, sustainable law firm you love

0:02
Unknown: Hi, everyone, and welcome to the wealthy woman
0:05
lawyer Podcast. I'm here today with Merritt Khan, who's the CEO
0:09
of Selekt, select sales development. She's also an
0:14
emotional intelligence expert and a certified professional
0:17
speaker. She has been in sales for more than 20 years. And she
0:23
teaches other professionals how to master their sales
0:27
conversations. And I'm so excited to have her here today.
0:29
Because if you are an attorney with your own law practice,
0:35
well, even if you're not even if you're working, and your job is
0:38
to bring in business development, if your job is to
0:41
bring in clients, you're working for another firm, you need to
0:43
learn how to sell and I know attorneys create the word sell,
0:47
we don't want to talk about selling, we don't want to think
0:49
of our conversations as Sally. But just like any other
0:52
business, unless a sale is made, nothing happens. So that is why
0:58
we have married here today. She's going to tell us a way to
1:01
to reframe our thoughts on this and also give us some nice tips
1:05
to take away from it. So welcome, Mary.
1:08
Well, thank you Divina. I'm super happy to be here with you.
1:12
Great, so why don't you start out by telling us I always love
1:15
to get a sense of people's sort of journey to where they are
1:19
now. What because I always find it fascinating to find out all
1:23
the different like, stops on the way that they made to becoming
1:26
wherever they are now. So why don't you tell us about your
1:30
journey to sales? Were you always a salesperson?
1:34
Yes, I think you know, it's, it's interesting, because
1:38
sometimes people go find themselves in the profession of
1:41
law, because they come from a family of lawyers. And so there
1:44
were rounded and it's very comfortable and familiar to
1:47
them. And there's families of generations of doctors, I come
1:51
from a generation of salespeople, generations
1:54
multiple. So my grandfather had a used car dealership, so he was
1:58
like that cliche. My grandmother sold Avon. My mother sold real
2:03
estate, my dad sold advertising and so there's really never a
2:07
question of what's Merritt going to do with her life? What's
2:12
marriage gonna sell? around it?
2:18
Yeah, yeah, I love that. I love that story. And I have always
2:23
says, matter of fact, I have two nephews that, as most people who
2:26
follow me know, who were in college, and one of the things
2:29
that I have told both of them is that you need to develop sales
2:32
skills, because you need to develop sales skills, you will
2:35
never go hungry, you will never worry about being able to make
2:39
money because you can always sell something. And it took me a
2:42
long time, I did not grow up in that at all. I grew up in a
2:45
family where my parents worked for the government. And so they
2:49
had to stay paychecks, everything. But as an
2:51
entrepreneur who's had multiple businesses, I know if we're not
2:55
selling, or making money, but the flip side of that I know if
2:58
I need money, I just need to come up with something to sell.
3:01
So tell me about how what did you do from the eye with this
3:07
idea that you were going to sell and this was something that your
3:09
family did? What was your first sales position?
3:12
My first sales 12 Want to go way, way back, I sold greeting
3:16
cards door to door. That was my first skill. I got one of these
3:21
little greeting card machines for my seventh birthday or
3:25
something and I got myself a little briefcase and a little
3:30
jacket and I quite literally went door to door and offered my
3:35
greeting cards because you never want to find yourself in a
3:38
situation where it's somebody's birthday, and you are
3:41
unprepared. I crushed it. I just want to say I crushed it. I had
3:48
a very successful business as a as a young child. Later in life
3:53
I sold radio advertising was my first real job out of college. I
3:58
did very well there. I loved it. I worked really hard. I'm sure
4:03
many people in your audience, you know, are very used to the
4:06
long hours and the grind and you just do what it takes. But I was
4:09
excited and I had something to prove. And I didn't think of
4:13
anything of working so hard. I was definitely not working
4:18
smart. But I definitely worked hard. And I became a sales
4:23
manager very early in my career probably a little before I was
4:27
actually ready if I'm honest about it. And it was in that
4:31
experience that because I was stretched beyond what I thought
4:34
my current capabilities were. I went out and I got training. And
4:38
actually, I really had done some training in preparation for that
4:42
my my parents always taught me train for your next job dress
4:46
for your next job. Be prepared for the opportunity when it
4:50
knocks and so that was always my philosophy. And I I learned
4:55
sales and sales management training. And then fast forward
4:58
the radio station that I was is where I was a manager was being
5:02
sold. And so my choices were, go back into the radio business,
5:06
put my get the word out and let people know I wanted another job
5:10
or, you know, this would be a good time to switch industries.
5:13
And I looked around and the people that I was doing my sales
5:18
and sales management training courses with as a participant,
5:21
tapped me on the shoulder and said, you'd be great at this.
5:24
Like, why don't you sell for us and then train, you know, as you
5:28
get more of your clients will give you opportunities to train
5:32
and coach and lead. And I thought, This sounds perfect.
5:35
And it really was, it's been an incredible ride. I've I've been
5:39
doing the same thing, different iterations since 1998. Love it.
5:44
Wow, I love that. So when did you start your current company?
5:49
And what was the impetus for that?
5:52
So I mean, definitely, you could say that I really, I started my
5:57
own brand back in 1998. And the name of the company has changed.
6:04
It's always been me delivering sales, sales, management,
6:06
training, coaching, consulting, projects, sometimes I was doing
6:11
more consulting, sometimes it was more of this professional
6:15
speaking business model. But right at the start of the
6:20
pandemic, so early 2020, I actually took over as CEO for
6:25
select sales development, we spell it SEL L, E, C, T, not
6:30
because we can't spell select, but because it is about selling.
6:35
But our philosophy really is we actually want you to stop
6:38
selling right selling as in being pushy and aggressive and
6:42
salesy, and nobody likes that. And certainly, we won't train
6:45
people to be like that, we want you to stop selling, we want you
6:49
to start getting selected. And so that's kind of the name of
6:53
the brand. And that was actually a brand that was started by a
6:57
dear friend of mine who passed away way too young. But she had
7:00
had a sales training company, and I had a sales training
7:03
company. And we we shared a very similar philosophy. And there
7:07
were some things she did better than me. And some things I had,
7:10
you know, more dialed in than her. And so when she passed
7:14
away, and we wanted to keep her legacy alive, we decided to go
7:17
with her brand. And I merged the best of what she had the best of
7:22
what I had, I think she'd be very, very pleased with what
7:25
we've ended up with. Yeah.
7:28
Yeah, what a terrific way to honor somebody's legacy,
7:31
somebody that you care about, is to keep their business going.
7:37
Let's so let's dive in and talk about selling. I would, I would
7:43
put forth having had many conversations with women, law
7:46
firm owners, lawyers thinking their own business that lawyers
7:50
don't like the idea of selling, they can't the you know, a lot
7:56
of lawyers don't easily wrap their mind around the thought
8:00
that their consultation with a client is a sales conversation.
8:05
I completely disagree. Because I if if that is the part of the
8:09
business where if you don't get the client sign up, then you're
8:15
not gonna need systems for anything else. If you don't, if
8:17
you don't get the client signed up, and you're not getting that
8:19
money and to begin with. So tell us a little bit about you've
8:23
worked with lawyers before and other professionals. Tell us
8:29
what your perspective is on a sales conversation for people
8:33
who sell professional services, particularly if they're selling
8:37
professional services, where they are the ones who are
8:40
delivering the services, not these other people on the team
8:45
in the in the corporation or whatever.
8:47
Yeah, well, first of all, I haven't met a single attorney
8:52
who went to law school and all put in all that work and all
8:57
that study, to come out the other end, and then think of
9:02
themselves like a salesperson. It's just like, that doesn't
9:06
make any sense. So I've always been in awe of my clients that
9:12
our professional services providers, they I know that
9:15
they've all put in a lot of effort and a lot of work to get
9:18
to the point where you earn the right to have your own business,
9:21
to share your expertise and to help people with their
9:24
challenges. Now, it's great to be great at what you do that you
9:29
could be the best attorney on the planet. But if you don't
9:32
understand how to generate business, how to turn those
9:34
consultations into new clients, then it really doesn't matter
9:39
that you're the best because the guy down the hall or woman down
9:41
the hall is going to get the business that frankly you
9:44
deserve, you might be a better practitioner. So my philosophy
9:49
is always how can I help you as the attorney, learn to use your
9:53
expertise to ask the best questions in especially in that
9:57
consult initial consultation, you It's the person who asked
10:01
the best questions that makes their prospect or prospective
10:05
client think deeper about the challenge about the, the, you
10:12
know, the either the legal, you know, issues at hand or the
10:17
contract issues, you know, all of those things. If you can make
10:21
your prospective client think at a different level than any of
10:25
the other people that they might be talking to, you're the one
10:30
that they are thinking I am comfortable that one made me
10:34
think that attorney made me think deeper, they know
10:37
something, I clearly don't know, I'm going to get the best
10:40
protection working with that attorney. And so I think it's
10:45
helping my clients understand how to use their expertise to
10:50
ask the best questions. That's really the secret to a good
10:55
consultation.
10:57
So let's dig into that a little bit deeper. One of the pitfalls,
11:03
I think, that I I've seen of lawyers who are handling
11:08
Congress consultations have is they step into this giving legal
11:13
advice during the consultation. And it coaches do this too,
11:18
because you know, I've certainly had conversation with a lot of
11:20
coaches. It's something that we just, we, we know the answer,
11:28
right? We went to law school, and we study cars, we know the
11:31
answer. And so when somebody starts asking questions, the
11:34
instinct is to go in and start answering the questions. And we
11:39
feel like if we don't answer their questions, they're going
11:42
to go to somebody else. Tell me what your perspective is on
11:47
that, and maybe some tips to help us. So because oftentimes,
11:50
people will give free consultations, if you're giving
11:52
free consultations, we don't want to get into giving free
11:55
legal advice and feeling resentful, and taken advantage
11:58
of because somebody is scheduling appointment with us,
12:01
and all they want is free legal advice. And then they're gonna
12:04
go try to do it themselves or hire somebody else. So how can
12:06
we not fall prey to that sort of situation?
12:12
I think the most important thing you can do in that situation, is
12:15
to frame that initial consultation, take the lead,
12:19
take control, and let that prospective client know how
12:23
you're going to run this conversation. And so we teach
12:29
formulas, I used to teach scripts, you know, this is what
12:33
to say, say it this way. And that's inauthentic. And you
12:38
know, really the used to be the old ABCs of selling we're always
12:41
be closing, that's That's old news don't do that the new ABCs
12:45
of selling are authentic business conversations. So to
12:50
have an authentic business conversation, it's really easier
12:53
to think in formulas. So the formula I would, I would suggest
12:58
for in this case is we call it plan PLA N purpose logistics
13:05
agenda, next steps. So in that exact situation, let's say I'm
13:09
the attorney, and you're my prospective client, I would say,
13:13
Davina, thank you so much for coming on in today, I'm looking
13:18
forward to hearing a little bit more about the situation I
13:21
understand we're talking about a blah, blah, blah kinda case. The
13:25
purpose of this conversation is to see if we're a good match to
13:29
work together. And, you know, in terms of my agenda, I'd like to
13:36
understand a little bit more about the details of the case
13:39
that you want to share with me, I'm sure you have a million
13:42
questions for me. And there's probably some things that I can
13:45
answer, you know, quickly for you. But the purpose of this is
13:50
not really to give you all the legal advice, the purpose is to
13:54
see if through my questions, I can help you think a little bit
13:59
differently or deeper about your issue and, and we'll see if
14:03
we're a good match. Did I leave anything out anything else we
14:06
should do? So it's a little bit of a dialogue. And you can say,
14:10
and then at the end of our conversation today, let's just
14:14
agree that if we aren't a good match, we'll shake hands and
14:16
part friends. And if we are a good match, I'm I will introduce
14:20
you to my colleague who will handle all of the scheduling
14:24
and, you know, talk about the payment schedules and all of
14:27
those details. But first and foremost, tell me where we're
14:32
starting from talk to me about your case. Right? So that might
14:36
be a little bit wordy. But basically, if I broke that down,
14:40
you could you could hear purpose logistics agenda next steps,
14:44
think of mindless skip logistics. But you always want
14:46
to confirm how much time you're going to be spending in that
14:50
consultation so it doesn't get out of hand. And you know, it's
14:54
like so we have an hour today. Is that what you have? Yes,
14:57
great. Okay, great. So our agenda is
14:59
it's Not logistic, when we're talking about logistics in this
15:02
context, it's not explaining to them your entire process for how
15:06
you handle the case. Yes logistics up, we only have a
15:10
half hour today. So do I have your vision interrupt you? If we
15:14
and then you're you're saying that and you said once we're
15:17
done, you know, and if we've decided to give it to work
15:20
together, and I'm gonna turn you over to Sally, Sally's gonna get
15:22
you all set up? If not, then you know, we'll we'll we'll have
15:26
some next steps, you know, set up for him, you know, we'll go
15:30
over some next steps for you that you can take, right? So
15:33
something like this. And that's the idea of Logistics is kind of
15:35
just explaining to them. It's like when you and I started this
15:38
fall, we go over the logistics and how long are we going to
15:41
talk? What's how when, when am I going to start recording? What
15:44
am I gonna stop recording? What it's all those housekeeping
15:47
items? Right.
15:49
Exactly. Yeah, I think it's important to plan pretty much
15:53
for every conversation, just so that you feel like you've got
15:57
some more control over it.
15:59
Right? everybody's on the same. Hey, I noticed you have Are you
16:03
open to in that pillar right there behind you. So why don't
16:07
you tell us what what that is about saying no, that's a part
16:10
of your process. So give you an idea of what it means when you
16:13
say Are you open to? And how.
16:16
Okay, so I think are you open to are probably the four magic
16:22
words that transform sales or really just about any
16:25
conversation. Think about it this way. Let me ask you this.
16:29
Would you say that you are an open minded person?
16:32
Yes, of course, because no one ever says they're not an open
16:35
minded person.
16:37
Exactly. And do you know people who are not open minded? Yes,
16:42
indeed. All right. So there was actually a study done in Peppard
16:47
by Pepperdine University. And they asked people, are you open
16:51
minded, more open minded than the average person? And 95% of
16:56
respondents said, yes. So I don't know about you. I mean, I
17:01
know you're an attorney, very successful businesswoman. So I
17:05
know you had some good education, background. But back
17:09
when I was in school, 95% of us could not be better than the
17:12
average, maybe? I don't know. And so I feel like when we tap
17:19
into this idea that all of us want to be identified as
17:23
somebody who is open minded, then rather than ask somebody,
17:28
are you interested in learning about our services? Are you
17:30
interested in going to this movie? Are you interested in,
17:34
you know, attending this event? That is easy to say no to?
17:39
Because I can be uninterested in something, and still be a good
17:44
person. But if I asked you, are you open to considering this
17:49
event? Are you open to hearing how a little bit more about how
17:53
we work? Are you open to try in that movie, it's, you have to
17:58
pause because the if you say you're not open to it, it's
18:02
about it becomes about your identity, as opposed to your
18:07
you're a little bit more removed, when it's of interest
18:12
or disinterest. So when I want to get somebody to be open to
18:20
hearing about our offers, and our solutions, or programs, the
18:24
possibility that we might work together, I want to first ask
18:28
them, I want to invite them into that open minded way of being
18:31
and thinking, and so I'm going to ask them, I don't know if it
18:35
makes sense for us to do business together. But if you're
18:38
open to it, let's just have a conversation and see how, see
18:41
where this takes us. Okay, I mean, like, otherwise, I'm not
18:47
open to it, and then I'm kind of a jerk. So no one's gonna say
18:50
that. And that's why I think the most important thing we can do,
18:54
the first step to a close deal is always an open mind, you'll
18:58
never get anywhere in the conversation until you open
19:02
their mind to a possibility
19:03
first. I love that I also think that we are in one of the things
19:09
that has changed in marketing, and sales in the last decade or
19:15
so is we live in a much more permission based society. So if
19:20
we want people to opt in to something and get on our email
19:24
list, we're having, you know, we're asking their permission,
19:27
or giving them something and we're asking their permission to
19:30
join our community or list or whatever. Everything that we do
19:34
is, is around this idea of asking for permission. We've
19:38
actually created laws around the idea that you can't just, you
19:44
know, send unsolicited emails to people, right, because they have
19:47
to give their permission. And this is a big issue in the
19:53
online world and in the social media world right now, is all of
19:57
these companies are collecting data without you know, we're
19:59
giving them permission, but we're not giving them permission
20:02
in a way that we're really aware that we're giving them
20:04
permission. So that's another thing that I think is an
20:07
advantage when you start using Are you open to? It really does
20:11
it because you want to have, you always want to feel like
20:17
everybody is here, because they're choosing to be here and
20:20
have a conversation and every stage of the conversation, you
20:23
want people to feel that they're getting to have a choice. And
20:27
the are you open to really makes it about, you're really
20:31
acknowledging that the other person has a choice every step
20:34
of the way in the conversation. So is that anytime they say, you
20:37
know, I'm not really open to it, you know, but then, you know,
20:41
that's very clear. And there's no need to to continue with
20:45
that, then if they're not open to it, right. So and that's,
20:49
that's the sort of idea that, you know, there I mean, you may
20:53
be the juiciest, ripe is peach in the orchard, but not
20:56
everybody likes peaches. When you give that are you open to
21:00
that's great. I have a I had a conversation recently with a
21:05
woman, law firm owner. And we were talking about shifting the
21:09
consultations from her lawyer lawyers, from the partners and
21:15
the associates for lawyers, to a non attorney, non attorney, non
21:20
lawyer salesperson. And I encourage a lot of my clients to
21:26
do this as they start getting bigger and bigger. But they
21:28
really need to have somebody who is not just doing intake, but
21:31
it's actually signing up clients. And she had she was she
21:39
was struggling to be open to that idea. Because she couldn't
21:43
really understand how a non attorney salesperson could sell.
21:49
And one of the things she said to me I thought was very
21:51
interesting is because I was telling her there were sales
21:54
formulas, because I also teach a sales formula to my clients. And
21:58
she was saying I hate being sold to. And so I don't want to sell
22:07
to people because I hate being sold to. And we had to do some
22:10
work around sort of reframing her emotions that our mind
22:15
around that concept of being sold to. So tell me what your
22:20
thoughts are on being sold to what's the difference between
22:22
being sold to, and and someone presenting an opportunity?
22:32
Yeah, I think there's, there's phases to the sales process. So
22:37
there's qualification, gates, if you will, right. In fact, I was
22:42
thinking as you were talking about a client project that I
22:46
worked on a number of years ago for an engineering manufacturing
22:50
company that I've worked with for probably more than 15 years.
22:54
And in this one project we were doing, they were they were
22:59
participating in a very big trade show, they spent 10s of
23:02
1000s of dollars to be part of the show, they have big giant
23:06
equipment on their, you know, in their trade show space. And
23:10
essentially, this is a company of engineers, so not known for
23:14
their people skills, you know, this group of people. And so I
23:19
was doing tradeshow training for them, like helping them sell
23:23
from the booth. It's a very different kind of very fast
23:26
paced sales process. So it's a completely different model. But
23:30
what I did was I put on their uniform, and I worked the trade
23:34
show floor with them. And my job as a non engineer, I'm about as
23:39
far away from being an engineer as you could possibly go. And my
23:44
role was to, you know, work the edges of the tradeshow booth,
23:49
and draw people in. And all I needed to do was qualify them to
23:54
a certain point. And as soon as they started talking, like I did
23:58
the small talk the the, the get them comfortable, the, you know,
24:04
give our little elevator pitch about what we do at a very high
24:07
level, at a high level. And then as soon as they would start
24:11
getting a little bit in the weeds with me, I would say,
24:14
That's a fantastic question. And I want to introduce you to Paul,
24:18
he has been with the company for a really long time. And he's the
24:23
go to guy on that topic. And then I would just hand them off,
24:27
hand them off, hand him off. Well, they ended up talking to
24:29
way more people than they ever had at a trade show. Because
24:33
they never had somebody to pull them in. And I think in your
24:37
situation with attorneys, I think you want to you can almost
24:42
set it up. I mean, you're the you're the one they want to get
24:45
to they have to qualify to get to your time and so the reframe
24:51
would be you know, we'd like to invite you in to have a
24:55
consultation. Here's how things work in our firm. You're going
24:59
to sit down With me, whoever the sales going to Account Manager
25:03
account professional would be. And I'm going to sit down with
25:06
you gather some initial information about your case, you
25:12
know, answer some of your, you know basic questions about how
25:15
we work in terms of our firm. And then if we're both feeling
25:19
comfortable, and it feels like it makes sense and you'd like to
25:22
meet Davina, then I'm going to bring her in, you know, we'll
25:27
schedule our time for a time that she's in the office, and
25:29
then she can come on in and, you know, answer some of your more
25:33
specific questions. And then we can decide together, if you
25:36
decide you're comfortable with her, then, you know, I'll take
25:40
it from there. And, you know, we'll work out all the details.
25:44
But I think you've got a really good way to make that
25:50
understandable for the client, because think about from the
25:54
clients perspective, I don't want to pay high priced
25:58
attorneys fees, you don't want to pay your hourly rate to do
26:01
something that a paralegal can do. Or, you know, a salesperson
26:05
can do. And you can use that as a benefit to your clients to
26:10
say, Look, our firm, we really, you know, we make sure that our
26:14
expert attorneys spend the most of their time focused on
26:19
delivering the value for our clients. And so everything we
26:23
can do along the way to protect their, their time, and, and make
26:29
it more affordable for our clients. We're gonna you know,
26:32
that's why I'm gonna sit down. And you know, if we're not
26:34
qualified, you're not paying attorneys fees for that
26:37
conversation. And I think there's ways to reframe it so
26:41
that it's a benefit to the prospective client. So that if
26:46
they do choose you now they're thinking, well, that's
26:49
interesting. This is not a place that's trying to rack up
26:53
billable hours, I'm going to get the hours I need with the
26:57
attorney that I need. But I'm also going to work with this
27:00
group as a whole. And that way, it's going to minimize some of
27:05
my costs, but I'm gonna get the best expertise. And I think you
27:08
can use that as a real advantage. Yeah,
27:11
yeah, I would take it even one step further. I do think that
27:15
there are some attorneys who are kind of wrapping their mind
27:18
around the idea of sort of a pre screening step. So people are
27:22
they're having they're putting people in positions to do sort
27:24
of pre screening. And there they are looking for things like is
27:30
does this person have a job and ability to pay me? Do they have
27:34
a case of the type that we handle? Do they seem like
27:39
somebody who's reasonable? Or is there a lot of are there a lot
27:43
of red flags here, that might cause them to be a difficult
27:46
client. So I think you can have somebody who's good at sort of
27:48
pre screening that was, I think you could take it further. And I
27:52
think this is where a lot of attorneys have a hard time
27:57
imagining this, but I do know that there are law firms that
27:59
are doing this. And that is that you could actually get clients
28:05
signed up with to be a to be a client of the firm, before they
28:12
ever meet with an attorney. In other words, they do not meet
28:14
with an attorney until they meet for their strategy call. So
28:18
they're signed up as clients, the firm, you're collecting data
28:21
from them, they're filling out whatever intake and then
28:23
scheduling equipped with an attorney after they've already
28:26
paid a retainer. And that's a completely different model than
28:29
most law firms operate on. But I think the bigger you get, the
28:33
more you need to be pulling people out of those attorneys
28:37
out of those consultations, because attorneys need to be
28:40
working on the actual client work. And also that presents it
28:44
as you're hiring the firm, not the individual, which is where a
28:47
lot of attorneys get into this idea that well, how do I
28:53
transition people from thinking they're working with me, the
28:56
owner, to me passing things off to my team, because they come in
29:01
and they want to hire me if it's Davina Frederick Law, they're
29:04
going to come in and expect to hire Divina Frederick, no matter
29:07
that I've got three more attorneys who work for me now.
29:10
And part of the reason why people struggle when making that
29:12
transition, is because the they're meeting so many with you
29:18
to do the consultation. And so they think they've hired you.
29:23
And now you're gonna have trouble passing out to your
29:25
team. And there's ways that we can do language in the
29:28
conversation and change that if you're still doing it. And I
29:31
also have a philosophy that I don't think you should train
29:34
your associates to do sales. I think that the associates you
29:38
need to be your job is to mentor and focus on making them great
29:42
lawyers leading mentoring that partners on the one hand close
29:47
clients. But I do think you could set up a non attorney
29:51
salesperson to actually close, particularly some low hanging
29:54
fruit. And let me give you an example of that. I had a I hired
29:59
an attorney For I have one attorney referred me to another
30:04
attorney, I call the office. They explained how they work.
30:09
They sent me an agreement, I signed it, send everything back.
30:13
And the next person who contacted me was somebody intake
30:16
to get information from me. And all of this stuff was done
30:19
before I ever had talked with an attorney. So it's very possible.
30:24
And I think that piece is really hard for lawyers to wrap their
30:27
mind around because they feel like the person will not hire a
30:32
law firm unless they have met with an attorney. First, have
30:36
you had that? Have you? Have you seen that with law firms or not?
30:41
And if so, kind of what are your thoughts? Because in sales power
30:44
in in sales conversations, when you're having sales
30:47
conversations, or when somebody on your team is having sales
30:49
conversations? Are you spending that sales conversation time
30:54
giving advice about sales? Or are you spending that time
31:01
asking questions to determine if you're a right fit to work
31:04
together? Which is different?
31:06
Yeah. I mean, I think that there's some amount of
31:13
information that you can give that, you know, demonstrates
31:17
your expertise. But again, I think the the person who is
31:20
talking is the person who is not selling or buying, right, like
31:25
the person, like the buying happens when I'm listening, not
31:30
when I'm talking, if I'm the salesperson. And so I, I do
31:36
think that what you've described is entirely possible. I think
31:41
that part of what gets you to that place where there's, you
31:45
know, you don't get to talk to an attorney until you're, you've
31:49
done your heart, your paperwork, and you are a client of the
31:52
firm. I think I'm wondering, and this is just a question for you.
31:57
Is there? Does that work in all types of legal categories? or
32:05
would there be certain types of categories? Like, in my mind, I
32:09
don't want to put any head trash in there. I'm just wondering, is
32:11
it the same for family divorce attorney where it seems more
32:15
emotional, or intellectual property attorney where it
32:19
seems, in my mind a little bit more mechanical? Do you see any
32:24
distinction there?
32:26
Ah, well, I don't, I think it can work for most I'm gonna, I'm
32:30
gonna say, as an attorney, I'm gonna I'm also gonna say it
32:33
depends, which is what attorneys say. And also, there are
32:37
exceptions to every rule. So there are rules, there are
32:39
exceptions. But most people think that most people just like
32:44
most people will tell you that they're open minded. Most people
32:47
also will tell you that they're an exception to the rule. So it
32:51
won't work for their business. So I think you don't know if
32:54
it's going to work until you try it. And, and here's the and
32:58
here's why. Because I know you talked about sales formula. So
33:03
if you are, if you were to hire people in your company to sell
33:09
to get people signed up for your services, there is a formula
33:14
right there is there a checklist of things that we need to be
33:17
asking about, that we there's a way to phrase in a way with
33:22
brace our opening the way we phrase our closing, there's a
33:25
way that we tend move people through a process in a certain
33:29
order that builds up to the making of the decision, the
33:33
purpose of the conversation is helping that person make a
33:37
decision. And also you make a decision about whether you're a
33:40
good fit to work together. So when I have seen this done,
33:45
usually what happens is the person will will will say
33:50
something, you know, so tell me what, what's going on? What is
33:54
it that you're you're getting an attorney for? So they go
33:57
through, and then you ask questions, like you said, you
34:01
ask questions about what you know. So what what is it that
34:07
you're you're wanting? What's the end result you're wanting?
34:11
Why are you acting now? What is something happened that caused
34:14
you to call us today? Call us now? What is that about? So
34:17
you're getting that urgency question in there. See what
34:19
obstacles have prevented you from doing this? Why would
34:21
you've done this before? And, you know, so then you're leading
34:26
them up to really get clarity on? Why do you need to take
34:31
action on this thing? And they and in my opinion, when unlike,
34:35
let's say, other professions? When when someone is calling an
34:41
attorney's office, there's no question that they have a
34:44
problem of some kind. Right, right, or they would not call so
34:48
what you want to do,
34:49
like we're not just calling you because we want to work with
34:52
more attorneys in our life. Right?
34:54
So you want so the goal then is to stop them from dialogue with
35:00
where, you know, like, you want to stop the process of them,
35:03
dialing and dialing on the next until they, so the person that I
35:07
hate is able to stop them and say, Let's do it. That's, that's
35:14
the person they hire the person that says, Okay, what is you
35:18
know, so tell me what's going on and, and the big part of that I
35:21
think is feeling like they're heard, like somebody hears me
35:26
and and understands the pain and they have the capability of
35:30
solving a problem. And so maybe a non attorney salesperson is
35:35
the best person to tell the services of the lawyers, right,
35:41
because you're not saying about that undersell? You know, I'm
35:44
also that's why you hire me, right?
35:47
Well, you know, and you're making me think a little bit
35:49
deeper about this, I'm actually I really liked this idea, the
35:53
more you're talking, I'm seeing even a better application for
35:58
it. And, you know, if there are multiple attorneys in the firm,
36:02
then it makes a lot more sense that each prospective client is
36:07
going to meet with the person in the sales role. And one of the
36:10
other ways that you could frame that is look, we have, we have
36:13
several attorneys in the firm all have sort of a slightly
36:16
different style, a different personality, different levels of
36:19
experience within some of the specifics of this category. And
36:25
the purpose of this conversation is so that I can understand you,
36:29
not just the details of your case, and the nuances of it, but
36:32
also the way you like to work with, with your, you know,
36:35
experts that you hire outside consultants, and, you know,
36:39
advisors. Some of you know, we have attorneys that are very
36:44
bottom line, we have attorneys that are, you know, going to
36:47
tell you a good story. You know, I want to find the right match
36:50
for not just for your case, but somebody that you're going to
36:53
work really well with. And so if you're open to it, I'm going to
36:57
ask you a lot of questions, some of them are going to be very
36:59
different than what you might have heard and other law firms
37:02
you might have talked with, just trust me that we know our
37:05
process. And at the end of this process, if you're feeling
37:08
comfortable with, you know, this kind of conversation, then I
37:13
would invite you to be you know, a client of the firm, and just
37:16
know what that means is we're going to assign the attorney,
37:20
that's the best fit for you and, and the timeline that you have,
37:24
and they're based on their schedules. And if for some
37:26
reason that is, you know, not the right fit, we're going to,
37:30
you know, give you somebody else. So you're really hiring
37:33
the firm, and we're going to make sure we take care of you.
37:36
And I feel like that could be actually a much like intuitively
37:40
as I, as I said, as I was listening to him like that's a
37:42
really good formula.
37:44
Yeah, yeah. So I think there's a lot of possibility there. But I
37:48
think we have to overcome that. Two things. One, we have to
37:53
overcome this idea that the person is coming to hire me.
37:57
Right, just because your name is on the door, and it's the
38:00
shingle, they're coming to hire your law firm. And this is one
38:03
of the things when I'm working with my clients. I'm always
38:05
getting them to separate. This is you and this is your
38:08
business, the way we start out when we hang our shingle,
38:11
because we're everything, we're the chief cook and bottle
38:14
washer, you know, we think of we are our business because we're
38:18
it right. But as we start to grow, we need to rethink how how
38:24
our sales are made. Even if you're still the one doing the
38:27
consultations, which a lot of lawyers are they they've got to
38:31
start using different language and use the terms of we you'll
38:34
be assigned to, you know, we have a team that will be working
38:38
on your case. And so that we're getting out of this idea that
38:41
you are hiring me as an individual. And I think that's
38:44
one of the most challenging things I want to talk a little
38:48
bit about. I know that you have kind of a framework with sales,
38:54
because I know that when I started doing sales, and then
38:57
getting sales, training and things, one of the things that
39:00
was a you know, a lot of people think it's mindset, and there is
39:06
a lot of mindset work, obviously in sales, like moving away from
39:10
this idea that I'm, if I'm selling you I'm trying to
39:15
manipulate or trick you versus this idea of, I'm just offering
39:20
a solution to your problem, and you have the right to choose it
39:23
or not to choose it. So that's a completely different mindset.
39:26
I'm just sitting here going, here's one option, and I think
39:29
it's the best option for you or I wouldn't be offering it to
39:32
you, right? But there's the mindset but one of the things I
39:36
found two that really helped me a lot is also language, certain
39:43
phrases and language and structure to a conversation. I
39:47
think we underestimate. Oftentimes how important that
39:52
language is, especially for like you've been in sales for so
39:55
long. That a lot of the way you say things just as natural to
39:58
you and you probably don't think Think about it. Just like
40:01
lawyers, we underestimate how much we know after practicing
40:06
for 1020 years. And so we're saying we're like looking over,
40:09
you're going you don't understand this, I don't
40:10
understand what's wrong with you, I understand this, right?
40:12
So tell us kind of your framework for, for having good
40:19
sales conversations that yield resort results and sort of your
40:24
approach in teaching it.
40:27
Our approach, we call the open for business framework, right?
40:30
So being open for business is more than being available to do
40:35
a transaction, like we're open from eight to six. It's really,
40:40
it's more than that. It's a, it's about your mindset. And
40:44
it's about what you do to be in consistent motion, so that
40:47
you're always there when you know when it's appropriate to do
40:52
business. And I really think there's three pieces of this
40:56
framework that make you successful, certainly in
40:58
business development, but I could make the case for in
41:01
anything that you want to be good at these three elements are
41:04
important. And they are mindset, what you think, mechanics, what
41:08
you say, motion, what you do. And most of the time, people
41:14
really want to start with mechanics of selling, right? The
41:17
nuts and bolts, what do I say to close a deal? What do I say, to
41:21
start a conversation? What do I say about how I do what I do? Or
41:24
or anything like that? And I think and that's where we talk
41:28
about the structure, the structure of the sales process,
41:31
there's certain things, you know, it would be inappropriate
41:34
to be like, Hi, how are you? How much money do you have? Right?
41:36
It's, there's an order to things right? You don't just jump in
41:40
with a question. Hi, nice to meet you. Are you the decision
41:44
maker? Like don't do that? So first, you want to you want to
41:49
set some expectations, you want to qualify or disqualify them?
41:52
Do they have a pain that you are an appropriate solution for? Do
41:57
they have? Are they willing and able to make an investment not
42:01
just have money, but also have time and effort that's
42:04
appropriate for the way that you typically serve your clients?
42:08
And are, you know, who are they in the decision making process?
42:12
Do they use advisors? Do they have a committee? Is there
42:14
somebody else? Right? So all what is their decision making
42:18
process? So there's a lot of qualifiers, we want to ask good
42:22
questions about those qualifiers. And then we have the
42:26
opportunity, maybe it's appropriate, maybe it's already
42:28
happened to present our solutions, present a proposal
42:32
package a contract, and then and then now we're off to the races.
42:37
But even then, at that point, now you're talking there's
42:40
opportunities to expand the the client relationship, you know,
42:46
we work together in this domain, do you have issues in this other
42:51
area of law? Do you know other people who would appreciate the
42:56
way that we work the way you know how our firm works with
42:59
clients the kinds of experiences you have, so there's growing
43:02
business afterwards, which you made a comment earlier, not to
43:07
train associates in sales, I do think there is some level, maybe
43:12
they don't need to be trained in every aspect of the sales
43:15
process. But certainly questioning skills, setting
43:19
expectation expectations, asking for referrals and introductions,
43:23
there are certain pieces of the puzzle I think would be
43:25
valuable, especially if associates are being groomed for
43:29
future partnership, while you have to bring in new clients to
43:32
the firm to make partner. And it's going to be helpful for
43:35
them to learn how to do that, without always being at the
43:38
mercy of outsourcing it to someone else. But I do think
43:42
that when you focus on the mechanics of selling, and you
43:46
feel grounded in your sales, language, it, it puts you more
43:53
in motion, you're more likely to do more of those activities,
43:56
because you feel confident. So you're, you're it's naturally
43:59
helping in that piece of the puzzle. And the more you do, the
44:03
more confidence you have, the more you you learn, the more you
44:07
begin to trust yourself. And that shifts your mindset. So if
44:11
you had any negative thoughts or ideas or beliefs about what was
44:16
possible, you can you can naturally shift that and
44:20
increase the the opportunities just because you've worked on
44:25
the language and you're feeling more confident. So I think
44:28
that's a good place to start.
44:30
Right. Right. And do you think there's, I do think there's it
44:33
is, the mindset is critical, because if you feel like you're
44:38
doing something to someone and something instead of something
44:41
for someone, you're going to struggle with this. And so this
44:45
and so some of that is the confidence in your ability to
44:49
provide what it is that they need. And also I think a lot of
44:55
particularly I've seen this with women, law firm owners, this
44:57
sort of you No not knowing how to talk about themselves without
45:03
it seeming unseemly, like you're bragging or whatever, and, and
45:07
how, you know, someone once told me like, it's your job to be
45:14
visible and to go out and let people know that you're
45:17
available and you're there was a solution for their problem. And
45:19
that can be hard in this day and age with a lot of people just
45:21
don't want to be personally visible, right. And there are a
45:25
couple of things that you said, one, I just want to touch on the
45:27
associate thing. So people have an understanding of my, my
45:30
philosophy behind that the reason why is I don't think it
45:33
should be the burden of an associate to bring in business
45:36
for the firm, I think it should be the partners responsibility
45:40
to bring in business for the firm. And so that's a philosophy
45:43
that I have, and that's probably another whole other episode. But
45:47
the thing that I want to make sure that we touch on before we
45:49
need to wrap up is one of the things you said was money, the M
45:53
word money, and that is the piece where a lot of times, you
45:59
know, will be great, right up until the point when somebody
46:03
says, Well, how much is it? And how much is this going to cost
46:08
me? Or? And then that's where they start going, what law
46:13
school did you graduate from, and they start sort of being
46:17
more, you know, if they're, if they're shell shocked about our
46:21
price, that's when they start raising objections and things
46:24
like that. How, what's a good way for us to enter into the
46:31
piece of the conversation where we tell them how much something
46:35
is, and, you know, sort of next steps or what they get for that,
46:41
or just whatever sort of thought that somebody has, and they're
46:44
sitting there, because I have this. When somebody's sitting
46:49
across the table from you, wanting to hire you as a lawyer,
46:53
I almost think that no matter what you say, they're going to
46:57
say, it's expensive, because legal services, even even if
47:04
you're not charging nearly what you should be a reference
47:07
represents a chunk of money. And something that people really
47:12
probably don't want to be spending money on. It's not
47:15
like, like I say, it's like, it's not like buying the new car
47:18
that you can brag a trip. It's like buying the tires. If you
47:22
can't go look at my tires are beautiful. And they're white
47:24
walls, I got beautiful they are right. You're like I just had to
47:27
spend money on tires. And so that's I think people view legal
47:31
services, a lot of time I had to hire a lawyer, and it's costing
47:34
me all this money that I don't want to spend on that. So how is
47:39
how can we as attorneys, or salespeople for attorneys combat
47:45
that sort of perception? Or what do we do in that case?
47:52
Well, first of all, any number that you say is going to be too
47:57
much money, unless they've had an opportunity to think for
48:01
themselves, the cost involved, either financially or
48:07
emotionally or otherwise? For them, so you could say your fees
48:14
are $10 an hour? And if I don't, if my problem only cost me $1,
48:20
it's too much, right. But if I'm trying to think back to the
48:25
times that I've hired attorneys, and you know, there was there
48:30
was the blank check case, because I was like, take him
48:33
down, let's go. Yeah, that was a very emotional decision cost me
48:39
a lot of money. But I was happy to pay that one. You know, I
48:43
feel like it's the rule is, you really don't want to be talking
48:47
about cost, until you understand how much it costs them to have
48:54
that issue in place. You know, so maybe it's, first of all, I
48:59
think it's good to have some, maybe third party stories or
49:02
analogies. You know, before you have that money conversation,
49:06
it's, you know, you could you could share the tire story with
49:08
a prospective client, like, I we're at that point where it
49:12
probably makes sense for us to talk about, you know, an
49:15
investment in a case like this. And obviously, I can't give you
49:19
an exact figure, because who knows what's going to happen in
49:23
this, right? Like, you want an or maybe you work on a retainer,
49:27
and it's a certain amount every month, there's many different
49:30
iterations of this. But, you know, of course, nobody has a,
49:34
you know, this is like buying the tires. I mean, you you can
49:37
use that whole analogy in a sales conversation, and just
49:40
say, you know, when you think about hiring an attorney, or
49:44
when you've hired attorneys in the past, you know, what, what
49:49
was comfortable for you, you can ask questions to just kind of
49:52
get a sense of it. I sometimes like to use metaphors. So you
49:59
know, there's the there's the there's the Cadillac, I don't
50:05
know, is Cadillac, still a good car? There's the Lamborghini
50:08
attorney, there's the Honda. And there's Uber, you know, like,
50:14
which had Aghori? Would you? Really? Did you? Do you imagine
50:20
you'd be in and some people are gonna be like, No, if I don't
50:23
have a Lamborghini level attorney, then I don't want to
50:27
play, right? Like, they're about prestige and ego and, you know,
50:31
they they want it would be, they might not hire you, if you're
50:36
too inexpensive. You think you're doing something to help
50:39
someone by keeping your rates lower, but they feel like
50:44
they're getting more value when they are paying a higher rate.
50:47
So who knows? That's part of the qualification process and
50:50
understanding, I like to ask people questions about when
50:54
you've hired outside consultants in the past, what were some of
50:57
the things that you look for in that relationship? And then I
51:00
listen, because now I'm learning what's more important to them.
51:04
And in addition to, you know, the cost, I'm certainly not
51:08
going to, I mean, I know my pricing, I'm not going to gouge
51:12
somebody just because they said Lamborghini, if I'm a Honda,
51:16
right, I just, I want to understand where they're coming
51:19
from. So I think yeah, that's, it's always going to be more
51:25
expensive, unless they connect it with something that's
51:29
personally important to them.
51:32
Right? So the conversation with them, sort of planting those
51:37
seeds throughout the conversation of the the urgency,
51:41
the value to them? Because let's say let's use the example of a
51:44
divorce. The divorce is somebody who's, you know, how long have
51:49
you been married? How long has had the troubles been going on?
51:52
What's causing you to take action? Now? Why is that
51:55
important to you? What is it you want out of this? Well, I want
51:57
to make sure that I have my kids, you know, that he doesn't
51:59
take my kids for me, or something of that nature, right?
52:04
To take the house for me or whatever. So you get some sense.
52:07
So then you are establishing for them and you're letting them say
52:12
that being that it is why this is important for them, as you
52:15
know, is so you're sort of drawing the picture of is it
52:18
worth it, right? To make those because they have to see that
52:21
investment. You know, in it, I know, I've had that reverse
52:24
conversation with clients before, back when I was running
52:28
my practice, I had a divorce case, and somebody was, you
52:32
know, he was really upset, you know, he really wanted, you
52:36
know, he was hurt. And he wanted everything. And I and I talked
52:39
with him, I said, Listen, we can go after this. But she's
52:44
offering the house, we got her retirement account. But if you
52:49
by the time you pay me to take this through trial, you're
52:53
better off just just stop where you are, and take what you got,
52:58
right. So so sometimes you can paint a picture for somebody in
53:02
terms of investment, about what it is that they're wanting, and
53:05
what the the compare, you know, the comparable investment to
53:09
that. One of the things that a mentor told me once is, after
53:14
you say the price, after you say the fee, or your structure the
53:19
fee, or however it is you want to do it, whether that's a flat
53:22
fee, or we're taking retainer billing against it, is just to
53:25
shut your mouth and sit because you have plenty of time to
53:29
process, what things cost. And you you have these conversations
53:35
all day every day. But to the person sitting in front of you,
53:37
if they've never hired an attorney before, or they haven't
53:40
hired attorney for something so complex or costly, maybe
53:43
something less expensive, they hired an attorney for they need
53:47
a moment to process it, and just absorb it, right. Because
53:54
sometimes it's just the the shock of you know, just a thing,
54:00
period. Right? We know how you we know that if we go to buy
54:04
insurance, and then the insurance agent quotes your
54:07
rate, and then you're like, the odds are the shock of that.
54:10
Right? And there's that we need to process them and make you
54:15
know, look at everything right. So I think that is great advice.
54:20
I'm sure you've probably heard the same thing and said the same
54:22
thing to people like don't get in and start unraveling
54:26
everything.
54:27
Yeah, well, I mean, first of all, if you if you immediately
54:30
what what I what I've seen people do is they immediately
54:33
you know, you know this is the price but we can negotiate or
54:36
but we can we can get creative or you know, but we can sharpen
54:41
our pencil. Well basically what you just told them is you can't
54:44
trust that what I initially say because then I'm going to I'm
54:50
going to modify it. And also I just tried to gouge you and then
54:55
I just gonna like felt a little bad. So like Whatever trust
55:00
you've built up, just gone in that moment. So I like that
55:04
advice, you know, say the fee. And if that, you know, if you
55:09
are comfortable in it, and you know, you bring that level of
55:13
value, there's no reason you should feel like backpedaling or
55:17
negotiating, it's, you know, the confidence in your feet is, you
55:22
know, I'm, remember when I raise my fees, the first time ever, in
55:26
my career, I can remember back in the day, and I literally had
55:30
to say, in my mirror, like all the cliche things like, you
55:33
know, you are worth every penny you charge and more. And, you
55:38
know, I and I regularly tell my clients like, as long as the
55:42
value you get exceeds the investment you make, we should
55:45
keep working together. And the moment that dynamic changes, we
55:49
should not be working together anymore. It's as simple as that.
55:52
So I'm very comfortable in my rates, and I'm very comfortable
55:55
in my clients feeling comfortable with my rates,
55:58
because I know they're gonna, you know, they're not getting
56:01
the value. We're not working together anymore. So that's how
56:05
I operate. But I also I do think, you know, say your feet
56:09
be quiet, I like the the idea of let it land. But here's the one
56:13
thing I would add to that. Sometimes, the prospective
56:17
clients go to is going to be all I need to think it over I need
56:20
to sleep on it, I don't think people need quite as much time,
56:24
as they asked for. So before they can say something like I
56:29
need to sleep on it. If you feel like they need a little moment
56:33
to process, you can say you can say the fee, take that pause.
56:39
And if they, you know, if they say okay, here we go. Great,
56:42
you're off to the races. If they say I just need a little bit of
56:46
time to think about it, I would jump in and say you know what, I
56:49
totally appreciate that. I've arranged for you to have the
56:52
conference room for you know, as long as you need. I actually I'm
56:56
going to I'm going to go finish up some things down the hall.
56:59
And I thought maybe you might appreciate thinking about it
57:03
here that way, if you did have a question, I'm right there, I'm
57:06
down, I'm available, the rest of the firm is available to you to
57:10
take take the time you need. Some most people I would imagine
57:15
have never been put in that situation. They're like, Oh, now
57:19
some people are going to some people are just because you've
57:21
laid it out. They're gonna be like, okay, like that. All
57:26
right. I guess I'll think about it now. And then other people
57:30
are gonna go, No, I'm gonna go home, I'm gonna sleep on it,
57:33
they were going to do that anyway, fine. Let them let them
57:36
do their process. But sometimes they don't have a process. And
57:40
if we invite them into ours, they might just go along for the
57:44
ride.
57:45
I love that. I've never heard that idea, Brian, it's great.
57:47
Now a lot of us are conducting meetings on zoom right now with
57:51
prospective clients. So what do we do in that case? Say, Well,
57:55
I'll tell you what, I'm gonna go a step away and get coffee and
57:58
you think about it, maybe write down some questions. And I'll be
58:01
back in just a few minutes. And I'll go over any questions that
58:04
you have that you need to think about. Right? So something where
58:08
they have to think about just creating maps, but I love that
58:11
like showing them, there's another way to think about it or
58:14
to process something. As you and I've talked about this before,
58:18
and oftentimes, when people say I'm going to think about it, we
58:23
know that we're the only ones who are going to be thinking
58:25
about it, they're not really going to think about it. So I do
58:28
think for your own peace of mind. It is better to to hear
58:32
that as a no. And just put a say, Well, you know, I'm gonna
58:37
let that go, right. Because I know when I first started doing
58:40
that, when I first started, you know, in my law practice, when I
58:44
would, you know, I'd be sitting there going, Oh, they're gonna
58:46
call me back or to come back or whatever. And they didn't. And
58:51
it caused me a lot of grief. And so since then I've learned how
58:53
to just go well, you know, that I always I started looking a
58:57
little bit like the universe is protecting me from something I
58:59
don't know. That's the way that I sort of deal with it. Because
59:03
I have had people say they need to think about it. And then
59:06
later, I see something on social media, or they had some thing in
59:11
their life that has blown up their life. And I go, Oh, thank
59:15
goodness, they were a client of mine, because that hasn't
59:18
happened. And so the universe is protecting me. So I have a
59:22
little bit of a philosophy that sort of let let and also that
59:25
just is like, everybody gets a choice and a decision. And I
59:29
know I've had situations where I talk to people. And after I
59:32
thought about it, I realized it wasn't the right thing for me to
59:35
do in a moment. And that had I done it, if not would not have
59:39
been good, right? And so sometimes that is the case with
59:42
people. And we just need to let them go and not take it
59:46
personally. Go to the Four Agreements, read The Four
59:49
Agreements and go read that over again. Do not take this
59:52
personally do not take this personally. This is hard to do
59:56
that you mentioned this. Well, I think one way to do that too, is
59:59
remember barring that, we are not our services, we are not our
1:00:04
business. Just go back to that you it, even though you're the
1:00:07
one having the conversation, you're selling services, you are
1:00:10
the one way meeting provider for the services. Initially, maybe
1:00:15
means you're still so low, but set separating that out. And
1:00:20
we're talking about the value of our services, when we raise our
1:00:23
fees, we're raising the fee on the value of our services, not
1:00:27
on our personal value. And if we can separate that in our minds
1:00:31
and say, my value, my worth is not question not questionable.
1:00:36
It is I am worthy, just for the fact that I'm here alive on this
1:00:40
planet. And I have something to contribute, right. So our word
1:00:44
is separate from services. And that I think that for me, helped
1:00:48
me sort of separate out, when I started thinking, this is what
1:00:51
my services are worth. And if people buy business services, or
1:00:56
or even take it a step further, this is the birth of my
1:00:59
business, the services my business provides, even if I'm a
1:01:03
provider, in that separate that out for me, and I don't take it
1:01:08
as personally and people say, you know, this isn't a good fit
1:01:11
for me right now. Right?
1:01:14
Yeah. Oh, can I piggyback on one thing that you said? Because I
1:01:18
think that was, it was brilliant to, you know, hear that Think it
1:01:21
over as a No, when you do that, you might as well try something
1:01:26
a little, like a little bit more. I don't know, I'll use the
1:01:31
word assertive, not aggressive, but assertive, like, like I
1:01:34
said, you know, why did you take a mouse moment, I'll be back
1:01:37
soon. Like, if that doesn't feel comfortable to you, then don't
1:01:41
try that with a, you know, a really big top price, you know,
1:01:46
prospective client, try that with somebody that you think is
1:01:50
not going to be a good match, you know, when you think
1:01:53
somebody's not really a good match for you go for all of the
1:01:56
sales, mechanics of selling, that you can throw all those
1:02:01
tough questions in there, you know, take it to the next level,
1:02:04
because they're just practice. They're just price,
1:02:07
what have you got to lose at that point, if you already know
1:02:09
that this person can say no to you. So you could you could then
1:02:12
start going into other, you know, sorts of more challenging
1:02:17
questions. I know, there's this one person that I studied years
1:02:22
ago. And what she does is she starts asking them to tell her
1:02:27
why they would be a good why she should take them on as a client.
1:02:31
And I thought that was a that's a brilliant sort of move,
1:02:34
because then you're, you're flipping out with people, and it
1:02:37
causes them to think about that this is really well, because
1:02:41
really what you're wanting is a relationship here if you're
1:02:44
wanting a transactional sort of business. But I think as I just
1:02:50
did a podcast episode on this, in fact, about, if you want long
1:02:53
term relationships, where people are referring you or coming back
1:02:56
to you, then you really need to focus on the actual
1:02:59
relationship. Is this a person I want to have a relationship with
1:03:02
a business professional relationship, obviously, but is
1:03:05
this somebody that might, you know, I want to help and they
1:03:08
want. And so I think you take your cues from that, in terms of
1:03:12
what you're wanting to get in relationship. We could probably
1:03:15
talk about our our I, we've already gone over time, our
1:03:18
capture over time. I love discussing this, because it's so
1:03:22
fascinating to me sort of what you're really dealing with sort
1:03:25
of human psyche and how we make decisions about what we do and
1:03:29
what we don't do. And so I find it fascinating. I thank you so
1:03:32
much for being here. I always love our conversations. Tell us
1:03:35
how people can find out more about your training and what you
1:03:39
do. I know you'd offer some different things. So where can
1:03:41
they go to connect with you and find out about it?
1:03:45
The best place would certainly be my website. So that's merit
1:03:48
con.com M er I T khn. If you put merit con.com forward slash
1:03:56
podcast, you'll get to a page that has has a form to fill out,
1:04:02
you can get a download a little bit more learn about the open
1:04:05
for business framework. We also have on that page, what we call
1:04:08
our select sales SWOT on steroids, which is a really
1:04:13
great free tool for you to be able to, you know, identify that
1:04:19
area in your business where you can, you know, where there's
1:04:22
already a strength, but where you have the biggest opportunity
1:04:25
for improvement, and we don't do a boiler plate, you know, quick
1:04:31
answer, we do a very thoughtful 100% customized feedback on
1:04:36
that. So we'll do a short little video saying, Here's what we
1:04:38
learned about your report. And if you're open to talking with
1:04:41
us after that great, but you'll always find the let's talk
1:04:44
button on the page. So book time on my schedule, if I could be of
1:04:47
any help.
1:04:49
Excellent. Thank you so much for for being here. I really enjoyed
1:04:52
our conversation as usual. And I'll be talking to you soon.
1:04:56
Thanks. Thanks.