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216. Freedom To Have Boundaries - Jim Newhesiser · 4-Freedom Podcast

0:00
Welcome back to the Four Freedom Podcast.
0:02
What an amazing time it is to be in the world and to be in
0:08
America. We're in America 250, Brett.
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We just got back from Israel like 2 weeks before America and
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Israel attacked Iran. And I don't know how many times
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you have gotten this question, but I don't think I've win a day
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in the last 10 days since we've been recording this.
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That someone hasn't said, man, aren't you glad you're not in
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Israel right now? Man, what we'll do.
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If you were there, I'd said, well, I've been out when they
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sent out the notice on that Monday to get out of the
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country. So, man, it was.
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It was. Great to be able to get out.
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Yeah, well, they they gave plenty of warning to get out.
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But Brett, how have you been since you got back from the Holy
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Lands? I've gotten the same thing
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people saying, oh, aren't you glad that you're not there?
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And I, I guess that some people say it's sincere, other people
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say it is kind of a gotcha moment.
1:00
Oh, I gotcha now. But you know, the truth is we
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were safe when we were over there.
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If any there was any danger, we have plenty of time to evacuate
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if whatnot. You know, of course you're not
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going to go over there with, with a conflict going on.
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But at the same time, when we were over there, everything was
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safe. And man, I did.
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We came back and we had a slideshow and showed our people.
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We gave testimonies about some, some of the things that happened
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over there. And it was a great time.
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And I'm excited to be back at church.
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I'm excited to be back in the saddle preaching and everything
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is going good. Although we are now, we're
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fighting yellow snow, not, not the yellow snow that you told
1:44
not to drink, but it looks like haze.
1:47
It looks like fog down the road because all this pollen that's
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blowing everywhere and it's got people's sinuses messed up and
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coughing and sneezing. And I have been taking allergy
2:02
medicine and taking, you know, the, the nasal spray trying to
2:06
fight the allergies. So that's what I'm fighting
2:08
right now. Yeah, absolutely.
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I'm same way I get allergy shots every every month now I'm almost
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done with them, but I can already tell like it's there.
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I can hear it when I'm talking. And just a little bit of
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congestion, not nowhere near what it used to be.
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But yeah, this year they're saying this year is going to be
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like one of the worst years of pollen ever.
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I think they say that every year.
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It's always bad for for me where we're at.
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But yeah, man, we did the same thing.
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I got to present our church, the trip that we went on.
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I think I've got like 9 people already signed up to go back in
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like 2 years, looking at a date and end of 27.
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So excited about that and being able to take some of our people
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back. And I keep telling them why
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didn't you go with me the last time?
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Well, we wanted to make sure it was OK.
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So yeah, they're they're signing up for that.
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I'm excited. I've got a couple of my football
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players actually the dads and the son wants to go do like a
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father son trip. And so I'm going to leverage
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that a little bit. That's going to be a good time.
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But yeah, we are excited about being back.
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I'm going to be presenting I think next week to our youth
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about my trip. They just they're going through
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the gospel project. They just finished the Old
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Testament. They're starting in the New
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Testament for the next two years, and so they've asked me
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to come in and present and sort of connect some of the dots with
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pictures of what they've learned and where they're at and where
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they're going. So I'm excited about that coming
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up. I'll tell you, I'll tell you
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there is. There have been a few people
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that have come up to me and have said I wish I'd have went with
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you that said they wanted to go and put it off and now conflict
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has started back and they feel like they've missed their window
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and they said I wish I'd have went with you and so I have had
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that as well. I agree.
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I agree, Brett, Church is doing well.
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Hope you're doing well. Hope your family staying healthy
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and wealthy and wise. The prosperity gospel is with us
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and it's a great thing. I hope that the church is doing
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good. And I've been watching some of
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your stuff online. You're walking through the book
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of Acts. I'm excited about that.
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I just finished the book of Acts, so it's good to be
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listening to some of your stuff and to be hearing some of those
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same things. It's been great.
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But church is doing well. Things are going well with
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family. Oh yeah, things are going great.
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Church is doing good. Like you said, we're going
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through Acts. We just talked about Acts
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chapter. We start in Acts chapter 3 this
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past Sunday and the title of the sermon was The Broken Man at the
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Beautiful Gate when Peter raised a, a cripple man.
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And you know, it was we had a great time with, with that, with
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our people. And there's not much else to
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report. Just getting back into the
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routine. You know, I'm, I'm taking
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classes, going to school. We're now we're planning,
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planning events and, and, and doing things and things are
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starting to get busy. We're already working on our
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vacation Bible school. You know, we're getting an early
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start this year. And so, you know, it's getting
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back into the swing of things, getting back in the ministry.
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Yeah, absolutely. But me and my wife are looking
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at our calendar because we try to, you know, every three months
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sort of look through the three month calendar.
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And my wife said, James, you know, we're going to be gone on
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a trip in April, May, June and July.
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I said, no, that doesn't happen. That's not going to happen.
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She said, yeah, she said April, we're going on our family
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vacation for spring break. May, I'm on the board of
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directors for the North kind of Baptist and it's at the beach.
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And so they pay for the whole family to come out.
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So the whole family's going out with me on those couple of days
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there. And then June is our convention
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excited about going down to Orlando with you and excited
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guys have been reaching out to me.
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Hey, are you beating up or you got you getting people at your
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house Like so I've already gotten people excited about
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meeting up with us. And so if you're going to be in
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Orlando, if you're in that area, definitely look us up and shoot
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us a message. We'd love to be with you.
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And then our 15th anniversary is this year.
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And so my plan is to take my wife on a cruise, our first
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cruise ever in July. But then the end of July, me and
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you were going to Nicaragua and my wife's wanting to go to that
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now too. And so we're looking at a trip
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for that as well. So man, I just got to look into
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my calendar. I'm like, dude, this is crazy
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busy. I don't think I've ever been
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this many places this much in one small amount of time.
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So lot coming up, lot coming up. Oh yeah, I'll tell you this, my
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people are excited about Nicaragua.
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I think I have more people signing up to go this this time
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that we did last time. We've got fundraisers going on.
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We've got a fundraiser this Sunday for our Nicaragua trip.
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We've got two or three more planned before July gets here.
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I got to raise a lot of money, get some funds together.
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That's that way people can go. And so we were definitely
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looking forward to it. Yeah, it's going to be great.
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Hope you'll be joining us. And for Orlando, maybe not
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Nicaragua, but join us there and I'm excited as well.
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We're going to be able to do some teaching.
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I'm almost finished with our teaching stuff and I'll be
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sending that to you soon. We're at, but we're going to be
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doing Pastors conference while we're down there.
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So we're excited about encouraging those pastors and
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being a part of the ministry with United Christian Mission.
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But without further ado, let's jump into today's episode.
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Today we're interviewing Jim Neuheiser.
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He's the the men director of Christian Counseling and
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professor of Christian counseling and pastoral theology
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at Reformed Theological Seminary right here in Charlotte.
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He's a member of the executive director of the IBCD, where I'm
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certified through. He's a fellow with the
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Association of Certified Biblical Counselors, which is
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where John is through, and he's a council member of the Biblical
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Counseling Coalition, The BCC Man, he's authored so many books
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and we've had him on here multiple times, but he just came
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out with a book called Do I Need Boundaries?
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Seeking to please God by learning to say no.
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And I think often times, Brett, we struggle with this.
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We struggle with saying no to people.
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And so this book is a vital book.
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It's helped me out so much. Hopefully you'll read it and and
8:32
get it. We'll put a link to our show
8:34
notes. But do I Need Boundaries with
8:36
Jim Neuheiser? We'll jump into it at this time.
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For freedom set me free. Not for change, not for guilt,
8:43
not for Pharisee grace. Let the flame down, Puff peace,
8:47
cigars and victory justified released.
8:52
Welcome to the four freedom podcast this podcast exists to
8:56
bring the freedom of the gospel for everyday Christians with
9:00
everyday issues I. Say by dress codes, not by what
9:03
I eat. I'm covered in the
9:05
righteousness, washed from head to feet.
9:07
No tally of tradition, No man made code.
9:10
Blood bought my freedom. Now I ride that road.
9:12
They clutch pearls when they see smoke rings rise.
9:15
But my praise still ascends past the legalist cries.
9:18
Christ plus nothing. That's the real math.
9:20
So miss me with your fence laws and your extra path.
9:23
He sat with sinners. I'm sitting with Saints, sipping
9:26
grace from the bottle. No room for face.
9:28
I like one for liberty. Toast to the king.
9:31
Every ash of sermon. Death has lost its sting.
9:34
For freedom he set me free, not for change, not for guilt, not
9:38
for Pharisee grace. Let the flame now puffing peace,
9:42
cigars and victory justified release.
9:45
For freedom he set me free. Not for change, not for guilt,
9:48
not for Pharisee grace. Let the flame now puffing peace.
9:52
Cigars and victory justified released.
9:55
Let grace begin for freedom. He set me free, not for change,
10:00
not for guilt, not for Pharisee Grace.
10:02
Let the flame now. Now here, your host, James
10:05
Seyfried and Brett Martin. We are honored today to have Jim
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Neuheiser president, not president, but a professor at
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RTS and big leader in the biblical counseling movement.
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He recently came out of the book called Boundaries.
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Do we need them and what that looks like?
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And so we're going to be talking through that today with him and
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sort of doing a deep dive into his book of the surface, the
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deep surface level. Look at what his book is about,
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how to have healthy boundaries from a biblical perspective.
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And, you know, a lot of times we struggle with boundaries and how
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to say no and how do we go through this.
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And so we're not nearly just going to be people pleasers in
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life, but we need to simply please God and how that looks
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like in our life. And so, Jim, welcome to the
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podcast. Tell us sort of a little bit
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about why you wrote the book and what's the specific shortcomings
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that you saw in the popular boundaries teaching?
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I know at the very beginning and even at the end you talked
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through some popular teachings of the books that are out there
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and some sort of tell us why you were prompted to write the book.
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Period. You actually in the intro gave
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me a pretty good summary that the summary of the book would
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be. Don't go from pleasing people to
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pleasing yourself, please, God. And a lot of the boundaries
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teaching in the most popular book and sold millions of copies
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tends to focus on you're being taken advantage of and it's
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ruining your life. And so you need to take control
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of your own life and take care of yourself and don't let people
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push you around. And yeah, they're identifying a
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real problem, but it's so horizontal and I'm trying to
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bring in the vertical aspect of saying is people make demands or
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requests. Again, the the common problem
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the book, the famous books identify would be, you know, we
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get pressure from people and we're trying to please them.
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Proverbs 2925 says the fear of man brings a snare and the one
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who trusts in God will be safe. And then and Galatians one Paul
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says, am I trying to please men or God?
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And and so we can get into lots of trouble through people
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pleasing where we overcommit and we get all the things they've
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described in the book. But then the alternative is to
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say, well, I need me time and I'm going to cancel the people
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who take advantage of me. And biblically, you know, Paul
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says in the Second Corinthians 59, our aim is whether absent or
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present, our aim is to be pleasing to him, which means I
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have to evaluate the demands of my life, not selfishly, not just
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to make other people happy, but what would most please God.
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That doesn't always produce a formulaic answer in every
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situation, but sure is a perspective.
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It'll clarify many things. So that's kind of the summary.
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And, you know, Romans 15 says we were strong should bear with the
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weak. So there are times and Jesus was
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taken advantage of and there were times Visa said no.
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And so we're we're trying to have a Godward focus as we set
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our limits. I'll tell you this, this subject
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hits me right at home because I am just a people pleaser.
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I've always been that way. I've always tried.
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I didn't want to disappoint anybody.
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I always want to do my best that I can to say yes to everything.
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It's just kind of in me. And So what I want to ask you is
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how does saying no to a person differ from pleasing God?
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Well. I'll take the example of pastors
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for people in ministry is that our jobs don't have natural
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boundaries. And if I work driving a truck
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for Amazon or UPS or whatever, I have fixed hours I'm working,
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and then I'm on my own. Whereas as a pastor, there's
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always another commentary I could read, another e-mail I
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could answer, another appointment I could make.
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And people don't always, well, you're kind of on call 24/7, 7
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days a week if you let that happen.
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And the problem would be if you let, and sometimes even in
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smaller churches, it's worse because everybody thinks they're
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a shareholder, that if every time somebody wants you, you
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jump, you may find that you're neglecting other
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responsibilities the Lord is giving you, especially your
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family. My wife and I do a lot of
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counseling with pastors and wives.
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And there's no more common issue with pastors and wives that a
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wife than a wife who's becoming bitter because the husband is so
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married to the ministry that he's neglected his wife and
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children with broken promises. And a text comes in during
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dinner or a date night gets cancelled because Missus Smith
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is all upset about the color of the curtains in the brides room
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or something. And so I think that we need to
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evaluate these opportunities by our understanding of biblical
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principles and our understanding of our call in life and to bring
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in, you know, is this what would most please God in light of all
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the other things the Lord would have me to do?
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And one of those is also REST. Let me let me ask you, how can a
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reader begin to uncover the hard reason behind their people
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pleasing like get down to it. Well, I think that would again,
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it gets to be the question would be, you know, Jeremiah 17 is
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another passage that says if you put your hope or you trust in
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man, you'll be like a Bush in the desert.
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If you trust in God, you'll be like a tree planted by water.
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And so when your mind is consumed with Ohio, no Missus
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Jones is going to be upset with me if I don't, you know, meet
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her expectations, you know, being afraid of disappointing
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people that, you know, they're going to leave the church,
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they're going to not like me. We can be manipulated.
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That's actually when the fear of end brings a snare.
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The snare can be. I'm afraid of what people will
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think or say. And that keeps me from doing
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well, fulfilling the calling of God in my life.
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So a Carolina counsel, the pastor and his wife been married
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several years. The pastor has such a sense of
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duty as a pastor that his wife has become frustrated and
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embittered. And it was that very thing where
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I'm meeting every night because he, you know, every committee
17:00
wants in there. And he's, he's allowing his, his
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fear of disappointing them, I don't know, getting fired or not
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being thought of as an amazing pastor.
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He's allowing that to cause him to neglect his responsibility.
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First Corinthians 7 says the married man has to be concerned
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about the things of the world, you know, to place his wife.
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And you, you can't be a pastor here if your wife is miserable
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because you've neglected her. Yeah, absolutely.
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And you know, for me personally, the the two books that have
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helped me so much is Dangerous Calling by Paul David Tripp and
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read on Keeping boundaries, but also Reset by Murray.
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Fantastic book on just how to rest your soul.
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And those things are, are vital for us as pastors, but also even
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outside of ministry, you know, you, you can be married to work
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and be a mechanic and every time something happens, you've got to
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be there and you've got to help people.
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And, and so, so it's having those healthy boundaries are,
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are huge and vital. One of the things that you talk
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about in the book that I thought was fantastic was just the, the
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biblical principles at work. As you go through that, the, the
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scripture that you brought in instead of the psychology,
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right? It's easy to bring up the
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psychology and the studies that man has brought up and really
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how the wisdom of Scripture can give them as boundaries in our
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life. You know, boundaries, they
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should be informed by biblical priorities, as you mentioned,
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book stewardship of your time, money and our relationships, not
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necessarily just about self preservation.
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So it's Speaking of that sort of what were the biblical text or
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the narratives that helped shape the thinking of this book that
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helped you the most? Sure.
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Well, I actually want to go back to something really good.
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You said you can be a mechanic. That's especially if the
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mechanic owns the garage. The entrepreneurs, you know,
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people who are gig workers, I would say also doctors, but
18:59
people, there are other jobs that don't have boundaries other
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than being a pastor where you're afraid if you don't care for
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that customer by working all day Saturday, they'll go to somebody
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else and you'll lose the business.
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So it's similar. I think positively.
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We've already brought up the fact that why am I doing this?
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And you know, the fear factor is opposed to am I really just
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looking at how I spend my time and my money in terms of
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biblical principle, good stewardship?
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Give another specific example. A family member wants you to Co
19:40
sign a loan or lend them money and you might say, well, I don't
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want to do it, but everybody's putting me pressure on it.
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They're in trouble. Yeah, their principles in
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Scripture, 2nd Thessalonians 3, if someone will not work,
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neither shall they eat. In Proverbs 6 and later in the
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20s, it talks about not being a pledge for the dead of others
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and even the fact that the borrower becomes the lender
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slave. One problem is that a couple
20:13
problems. 1 is if they can't get credit on their own, they
20:16
probably have already been wise with debt.
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The second is if they don't pay you back.
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They don't like feeling like a slave and they'll resent you.
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So I mean, that's just one example.
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I've already given other examples in terms of the Bible
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says I'm not qualified to be an elder if I'm not a good husband
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to my one wife. If I'm neglect, yo, I can't.
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Paul specifically says that I'm going to have to adjust my
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ministry around the needs of my family in First Corinthians 7.
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So there's not always a mathematical answer where you
20:52
plug it into a formula. But if you just even that you're
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thinking this way, is that according to what I know in
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Scripture? You know, am I spending enough
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time with my family? Am I using my finances wisely?
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Am I neglecting responsibilities God has given me?
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Or am I afraid to say no? Not because yeah, we say no
21:16
because we think this is how I can please God.
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But are we afraid to say no because we're fearful that
21:21
people will be upset with us or not just upset with us?
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We want to be the hero. We want to be the guy everybody
21:26
can rely upon to get it all done and everything depends on us.
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Which can be pride that you know things won't function in the
21:35
church unless I'm the one who makes every visit and fixes
21:39
every problem. Yeah, that making ourself into
21:44
that, you know, all seeing eye can, can help hurt us in the
21:48
long run too, thinking that we're the only one that can fix
21:50
things. And so that's that's definitely
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a struggle that I think all of us have, especially when we're
21:56
young. We've got energy.
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We think, hey, I've got all the answers come to me.
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And so it's good to to humble ourselves in that way and to
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keep those boundaries in in check.
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And I think that's great. Brett, what?
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What's the next question we got? Well, let's see how to how to
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basic resources like time and money become boundary formation
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arenas. Well, Proverbs 21 five says the
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plans of the diligent lead to advantage and knowing who is
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hasty comes to poverty. I think I would apply that verse
22:33
both to my time and my money. The hastiness, I would say, is
22:38
if you just kind of drift with your money, if you just kind of
22:41
spend money as you go without a plan, you're going to run out of
22:43
money for the rent or important things.
22:48
Same thing with time. If your time is just the tyranny
22:52
of the demands of others, of the tyranny of the urgent, you may
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be guilty, having not planned carefully of neglecting what you
23:00
need to do. And I see this with my students
23:03
that when they, you know, friends want to hang out, OK,
23:09
that's fine. It's good to hang out and have
23:12
friendships in seminary, but if you have a paper due and reading
23:16
due and you're not getting ahead on that or you have a plan to
23:20
get it done, you're going to dishonor the Lord by wasting the
23:25
opportunity you've been given to be in school and to learn these
23:29
things. And so a lot of times you're
23:31
choosing the best things over good things, and that can be
23:36
hard, especially if people have expectations of you.
23:44
Yeah, that's that's a great way to give some some analogy for
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that. I want to dig in just a little
23:49
bit more on that practical application.
23:52
You go through some case studies in the book as well, just to
23:55
talk through some of those things.
23:56
What what is one example from the book where boundaries please
24:00
God and they they sort of hurt self by not doing the thing that
24:06
was most self pleasing to yourself, but also it pleased
24:09
God. What?
24:10
What's an example you can give? Well, I mean, if I understand
24:14
your question correctly, one example would be that God has
24:17
called us to rest. And I, I read through the Bible
24:20
every year and they've just gone through the manna section where
24:25
they had to trust God when they gather twice as much on the 6th
24:33
day that they would have enough for the 7th day.
24:35
And you know, even with the old covenant to not work 7 days or
24:41
for Chick-fil-A to stay closed on Sunday, you're trusting
24:46
there'll be enough chicken sandwiches sold the rest of the
24:48
week. Well, for us as believers,
24:50
regardless of your exact position on the Lord's Day, that
24:53
I think God has created us in a rhythm of work and rest and we
24:57
can enjoy the rest of the glory of God.
25:01
And I think in some cases people get burned out because they
25:06
don't rest as God has called us to rest sometimes.
25:09
So that would be one example. There are probably many more I
25:14
could give depending on which way you wanted to go.
25:16
No, that's great. One of the things that our
25:18
listeners, we've talked to many of them about is some have left
25:23
a legalistic church environment, Some have left a spiritually
25:26
abusive church environment. One of the things that many of
25:31
them have asked us is my loved ones that are still in that
25:34
environment, still in the IFB, they want to push for my time
25:38
and resources. And I'm trying to create good,
25:40
healthy boundaries in those resource in my time to not allow
25:46
a divisive issue such as the King James Bible.
25:49
You know, all of a sudden, we're not, we don't, we don't just use
25:53
the King James exclusively, but my mom and dad do.
25:56
And so I'm trying to limit some of those arguments and
25:59
difficulties there. How could a believer, someone
26:02
who loves the Lord, balance mercy and discipline in their
26:06
own life when it comes to those times and resources of loved
26:09
ones? Sure.
26:11
Well, let me back up a bit in terms of it's not just IFB
26:14
churches, but churches in general sometimes can make such
26:19
demands on people's time and money and even not just pastors,
26:23
but you know, members every night you got to go door
26:26
knocking and you know, work day and it just you're expected to
26:31
do all this for the church, which could lead to a neglected
26:33
family or of rest. And so it can be really hard
26:39
under that kind of social pressure.
26:40
Also economically where, you know, I was in a church in the
26:44
Philippines one time where I think there are three or four
26:47
offerings and I was kind of thinking on the 4th offering is
26:50
everybody tapped out by now? They're all the appeal.
26:53
And so we should give generously, but sometimes you
26:57
can. We also have to pay the
26:59
mortgage. And there can be.
27:01
So it could be pressure where you have to decide, not the
27:05
pressure from the institution or the pastor.
27:08
But you know, what do I think is the wisest use of my time and my
27:12
money? To be generous and to serve.
27:15
But you can't do everything everybody wants us to do.
27:20
With reference to getting along with people who are still there,
27:24
I've got a couple passages in mind.
27:26
I mean, one is Romans 12/18. As far as it's possible for you
27:29
to be at peace with all men, I guess you realize I'm not
27:32
quitting the King James, although I think it's a fine
27:34
translation that we should try to be at peace, especially with
27:38
people who are really brothers and sisters who with whom we may
27:41
have some practical or theological differences.
27:44
I love in Philippians 1 Paul's example when there were some who
27:48
are even preaching Christ from envy and strife, seeking to
27:51
cause him discomfort in his imprisonment.
27:53
And yet he said, if Christ has proclaimed, I will rejoice.
27:56
And so I think if they're people who are trusting in Christ alone
28:01
for their salvation and that were saved by grace alone
28:04
through faith alone in Christ alone in the Bible of the word
28:06
of God, we should affirm those things we have in common and not
28:12
make it our mission to set them straight.
28:17
In some cases. It's like a lot of other
28:18
situations I talk about in the book.
28:20
If you have children who go off in other directions vendor wise
28:24
in some cases, and I'm not saying that's the same, but you
28:27
know, analogous where in some cases they'll say, well, we have
28:32
our differences, but we have family in common or, and we have
28:35
our differences. We have the Lord in common and
28:38
you may also face situations. And I have a, you know, I have
28:42
a, one of my former officers in our church came from a
28:45
background where when he became more reformed and, you know,
28:49
whatever, using other Bible translations for a while, his
28:53
parents completely cancelled him.
28:56
And I mean, would not even see their grandchildren.
29:00
And yet I admire what my friend did because he kept trying.
29:03
He kept reaching out. And it was actually years later
29:06
when his father was facing a health crisis and finally the
29:11
parents reconnected with them. But I think, yeah, the desire
29:15
for connection and for peace on the part of my friend was
29:19
admirable, but he did not capitulate and say, well, I'm
29:22
going to agree with you. So that would be, that may be
29:26
the kind of situation you're talking about.
29:28
No. That's great.
29:30
That's great, Brett. Well, I.
29:32
It's funny that you came. It's good that you came into
29:35
this next area because you're kind of talking about unbiblical
29:38
boundaries, I think. And that can lead to like
29:41
relational severance. I know of several instances.
29:45
I hear it all the time of, you know, we live in cancel culture.
29:49
I hear people all the time say they're going no contact and
29:52
they're cutting off relationships instead of kind of
29:55
redeeming relationships in love. So I want to ask you, how do you
29:59
distinguish between healthy boundaries from relational
30:03
abandonment? Yeah, this is something culture
30:07
wide. Abigail Schreyer, who is secular
30:10
Jew, as far as I know, wrote a book called Bad Therapy, and
30:14
she's talking about cancel culture.
30:15
And she, she actually likens that to a lot of the
30:19
psychological counseling. And just maybe it's just in the
30:23
air, in the water now Gen. Z is getting and in terms of
30:28
seeing themselves as victims of everything wrong with their
30:30
parents. And then of course, the most
30:33
common thing happening now to Christians is you have a family
30:37
member who comes out as LGBTQ, whatever.
30:42
And my view would be if I have a relative who is in that space,
30:49
like first Corinthians 5 says, they they're not believers.
30:52
I don't have to shun them. I can, you know, have contact
30:58
with them. I can even love them, but I
31:01
can't affirm them and celebrate them.
31:03
And in southern and I, I have adult kids who are unbelievers,
31:08
one who's kind of a radical theological liberal and very
31:13
liberal politically. And our relationship kind of get
31:17
strained now and then. But I think the general
31:19
principle is I'm not going to sacrifice my faith to be in
31:25
harmony with you, which is the people pleasing part.
31:29
The the real example that comes up is OK, my pastor friend has a
31:34
34 year old daughter who comes out.
31:36
She's decided she's a man and she basically says me by my male
31:40
name, use my pronouns. And she's been an ultimatum to
31:45
her parents and her siblings. And anyone who doesn't do that
31:48
is dead to me. Another example that comes up
31:53
is, you know, your son wants to marry another man and he wants
31:58
you to walk in down the aisle or something.
32:00
Or, you know, girl to a girl. And my view would be attending a
32:06
wedding, you're not just an audience and a wedding, you're
32:10
witnesses and you are participants in the ceremony or
32:13
that covenant is made, which is why I could never do that.
32:17
I believe very strongly that it would be against Scripture in my
32:21
conscience to witness a covenant which is an open rejection of
32:27
the Lord. And so sadly, many parents and
32:30
you've seen it happened sometimes with famous people
32:34
when it becomes their grandchild or niece or whatever who's who
32:40
capitulate and say, OK, well, I still don't think it's right.
32:43
Then I'm going to go. And that's where the pressure
32:47
comes. I just that would not in my mind
32:49
please the Lord for me to be there.
32:54
But I'm happy to have the movie up.
32:55
They're both unbelievers. I'm happy to, you know, go out
32:58
to coffee with them some other time or have them over in my
33:01
home as long as I might want to watch out for my small children
33:04
or influence. But I think there's a lot of
33:07
pressure. Romans 12 says do not be
33:09
conformed, this world to be transformed by the renewing of
33:12
your mind. I think there's immense pressure
33:15
on Christians to capitulate the various aspects of the culture.
33:21
And we want to be kind. We say, look, I'll have a
33:24
relationship with you and I love you as a family member or a
33:28
friend, but we we may get cancelled.
33:31
That's back to Romans 12/18. As far as it's possible for you
33:33
to be peace with all men. It's like I'm trying to get
33:37
peace with these people, but I can't give up my faith.
33:41
First Samuel 229 most famous failed father in the Old
33:47
Testament, Eli, it says he honored his sons above God and
33:51
that was his condemnation. And so I have to honor God above
33:56
my sons. And sometimes I can get along
34:02
with my sons while putting God first, and sometimes they may
34:06
shun me. I don't want to be obnoxious
34:08
about it, but that may happen. Yeah, I think that's a great.
34:13
I think that's a great. Example, and I think that's the
34:15
example of Jesus. He ate with publicans and
34:18
sinners, but didn't he didn't affirm their sin.
34:21
He said go and sin no more. So I think that it's the nail on
34:24
the head, James. Yeah, I think that.
34:27
That's a great biblical application of what is in the
34:31
culture today. You know, recently, a couple
34:34
years ago, a famous pastor who you would know if I said his
34:37
name, had a whole controversy about a homosexual wedding and
34:42
that what he would do to that wedding.
34:44
And so I think it's a faithful translation of what we are
34:48
trying to do in honoring God, honoring the covenant of
34:51
marriage, honoring what marriage is.
34:54
But even beyond that, right? How we how we interact with
34:57
other people, being there for them and loving them, but not
35:00
affirming what they're doing. This can be so much more than
35:04
just homosexuality. This can be living a lifestyle,
35:08
drugs or promiscuous or or whatever.
35:12
Maybe you can still love the person, but you don't have to
35:15
love what they're doing or condone what they're doing.
35:17
And so I think that's faithful, you know?
35:21
Go ahead. A couple comments on that one.
35:24
Interesting thing is that famous pastor got disinvited by another
35:27
famous pastor from a conference as a matter of principle, and
35:32
yet they still had friendship. And that was an interesting way
35:35
of kind of, you know, how that thing was managed.
35:38
Is that OK? Well, it wouldn't be appropriate
35:40
for you to speak at a conference right after you said that.
35:42
I really disagree with what you've said, but you're still a
35:45
brother. We disagree.
35:47
I think that famous pastor was wrong, but the other famous
35:51
pastor who's known as being kind of fundamental did not wreck the
35:55
friendship over it. And I thought that was a good
35:58
thing. I would also mention briefly
36:00
that I I've got on my web on IBCDNO org and I've got some
36:06
books dealing with the relationship between parents and
36:09
their adult kids very particularly.
36:12
And it deals with some of those questions where parents are
36:16
tempted in order to keep the relationship, not just on the
36:19
LGBTQ thing, but kids who I had a couple come up to me at a
36:23
conference this weekend where they have a 25 year old son who
36:27
dropped out of college three years ago, sleeps all day, plays
36:31
video games all night, says he's depressed.
36:34
Can't you? It won't work.
36:36
And I think they can be tempted to keep the peace, which isn't
36:42
even good for their son. And so I think again, they have
36:45
to go. How can we honor God and dealing
36:47
with this very hard situation? And sometimes it's seems easier
36:51
to enable a loved one's sin than to confronted with consequences
36:59
like you like. Yeah, I've used that.
37:02
Book you just referenced multiple times in counseling and
37:05
helping people, and so it's been a great resource.
37:08
We'll try to leak that in the show notes as well.
37:10
As far as one thing to talk about in the book is our
37:12
stewardship in our boundaries. I want to revisit this for you
37:16
to our very last question here in just a little bit.
37:19
Saying no is sometimes the most faithful stewardship of what God
37:22
has given us. Our time, our money, our energy,
37:26
and we can actually serve in the ways we're called when we say
37:29
no. What role does stewardship play
37:32
in biblical boundary settings? Sure.
37:36
Well. I mean, Jesus tells parables
37:39
where people are given talents and they're expected to use or
37:43
invest them wisely. And so I have a limited amount
37:46
of time, a limited amount of money.
37:49
I have far more opportunities, some of them good, use those
37:53
resources that I have resources. And if I'm saying yes to one
37:58
thing, I'm saying no to other things.
38:02
And so to say yes, even in terms of, you know, if you say yes to
38:09
the need of the church to raise more money, to build the new
38:13
youth wing, and you're saying no to paying your mortgage, that
38:17
would be an unwise choice. As noble as it is to give to the
38:19
church to say yes to the people who want you to come to their
38:27
it's kindergarten graduation on Thursday night.
38:30
You're saying no to your wife whom you promised to take out to
38:33
dinner that night. And so that's with limited
38:38
resource. You, Jesus often walked away
38:42
from crowds who wanted him to be with them and serve them.
38:46
He often would go away alone to pray.
38:52
He he disappointed people sometimes and because he kept in
38:58
mind he had a very short adult life, short ministry and he had
39:02
to accomplish the things the father gave him to do.
39:05
Visions 210 says the Lord is predestined good work for us to
39:08
do. So I think you're thinking in
39:09
terms of get in light of my time in life, my responsibilities, my
39:15
calling. How do I evaluate this
39:18
opportunity? And the fact that it's allowable
39:21
doesn't make it right. And maybe something that is
39:24
lawful but not best. And sometimes it may involve
39:28
having to say to someone, I, I would love to be with you, but I
39:36
believe the Lord is giving me other opportunities or are the
39:39
priorities. But I also think part of the
39:42
strategy would be we don't always have to tell people why
39:46
we're saying no. I mean, if it's your wife, tell
39:49
her. But you know, if somebody says,
39:53
can you come do this with me? I don't have to say, well, I'm,
39:57
you know, I'm got date night or I got my kids baseball game.
40:01
I can just say I have other plans.
40:03
Let's find another time. And sometimes even just there'll
40:08
be people who we've had people that joke they kind of they'd
40:11
move in with us if we would like them.
40:13
And I'm I'm glad they like us, but we have to evaluate.
40:18
Not just who's demanding most of my time, but how can I be the
40:21
best steward of my time? Yeah, I have after.
40:26
One time that he told me, he said there's certain people that
40:31
will come into my office and I know that they want to talk for
40:34
an hour if I give them an hour. And so instead of, you know, if
40:37
I know I'm busy or if I know I'm doing something, I'll say, Hey,
40:40
how about we meet tomorrow for coffee in the morning and I'll
40:43
give you an hour of my time and we can talk then.
40:46
And instead of saying, you know, abrasively, no, it's let's re
40:49
pivot, Let's re let's, let's some of that morning time or
40:53
whatever time it is and, and move it to a time where, Hey, I
40:56
want to listen to what you have to say.
40:57
But right now I just, I'm in the place where I can't look, give
41:01
me some time tomorrow. We can, we can definitely do
41:03
that. So I think there's wisdom in
41:05
that too. A couple similar things that.
41:07
Pastors can do one would be my study time.
41:10
Is an appointment just like appointments or appointments?
41:13
And so that's not available unless you're dying.
41:17
Another would be if you're making an appointment with
41:21
somebody, to make another appointment immediately after
41:24
the time you want to give them so that you have an out.
41:27
Yeah. That's good.
41:29
And that's. Good stuff right there.
41:30
I'm. Writing that one down.
41:33
So my last question had to do with pleasing God.
41:36
You know, boundaries are not ends in themselves.
41:39
They are mean to glorify God by loving God and neighbor
41:43
effectively and faithfully. So my question is, how should a
41:46
believer evaluate an invitation of request through the lens of
41:51
pleasing God? I think that the believer who
41:56
starts there is already way ahead of the game.
42:00
And because we're not omniscient, I'm not going to get
42:02
revelations saying spend time with this person and not that
42:06
person exactly. But I just think, you know, in
42:09
light of what does the Bible say about pleasing the Lord in terms
42:12
of my response and my, you know, my responsibility to serve the
42:16
Lord in the church, my responsibility to be a father
42:19
and a husband. My, you know, and so, you know,
42:24
am I just think instead of thinking, oh, I don't want to
42:26
disappoint these people thinking in terms of in light of in
42:31
minor. We also talk in the book some
42:33
about different times in life where, you know, I'm thinking of
42:39
a mom that my wife when we had children in the home did not do
42:46
as much counseling or teaching as she does now because she was
42:50
homeschooling three than four people.
42:54
And she did not need to be ashamed of the fact that she
42:57
wasn't able to do all the things and your Titus 2 talks men are
43:01
the older women can mentor the younger women and and so even at
43:04
different times in life, you're just thinking where I am now my
43:08
understanding of my calling from the Lord.
43:11
Do I think in light of the other things I could be doing.
43:14
Is this the best thing I could do?
43:16
And I guess we could take examples and I could tell you
43:18
how someone might think it through, but that I don't think
43:22
most of us do well at thinking in that grid.
43:24
I think we tend to be very horizontal in terms of either in
43:27
the two wrong, the the 2 lower priorities of, you know, will
43:32
these people be upset with me or I'll be less of a hero in their
43:35
eyes or even selfishly. I was really looking forward to
43:42
whatever easy, fun thing I could do, which is not always wrong,
43:45
but maybe the best thing is to do to say, well, you know, I
43:50
know there's a football game that night, but this person's in
43:55
the hospital. And sometimes I shouldn't please
43:59
myself. I shouldn't be willing to please
44:00
others. But just just operating on that
44:03
grid, I think would put most people way ahead.
44:07
Yeah, absolutely. And I think.
44:09
That's a great lens and a view to have.
44:13
And what I want to do is end by just sort of giving you the
44:16
opportunity to, to give any final encouragement.
44:18
I know a lot of people are just afraid to say no.
44:20
They're afraid that if I say no, I'm never going to get this
44:23
opportunity again. And it's, it's this, you know,
44:27
it's that self glorification versus God glorifying.
44:29
If God wants us to do it, he's going to give us another
44:31
opportunity. But what would you say to
44:34
someone that's afraid to say no or has this fear of of man
44:38
that's just crippling? When someone asks to do
44:40
something, they have to say yes, one thing.
44:44
That comes to mind would be to ask your wife if you're married
44:50
or your husband. Do you believe, well, you know,
44:54
what do you think about this in light of my responsibilities?
44:57
What do you think in terms of, you know, am I enough here for
45:02
our family? Proverbs 31 says the heart of
45:05
her husband trusts in her. The teaching of wisdom is on her
45:09
lips. I think also, yeah, there's a
45:13
lot in Proverbs about seeking counsel in general.
45:16
And so as you're trying to evaluate if you're really
45:18
confused or you're really feeling that pressure to have
45:22
godly mentors to help you work through your priorities.
45:27
When I was serving as a pastor in California, I would
45:31
periodically map out, here's how I spend the hours of my week,
45:37
and I spend this much time studying.
45:39
I spend this much time, you know, working in a counseling
45:41
ministry. I spend this much time teaching
45:43
here, whatever. And as men to whom I'm
45:48
accountable, Are you satisfied with that?
45:52
Would you have me change anything there?
45:55
Now that. Yeah, that's particularly for me
45:58
in that situation. I think we could also do that
45:59
for others in terms of, yeah, again, I think your family is
46:04
going to be the closest, but other close friends just saying
46:06
I'm having a hard time figuring out if I'm doing enough for the
46:09
church or if I should go sometimes.
46:11
It could be I'm trying to decide, do I get this extra bit
46:13
of education which could potentially lead to a better
46:17
job? But it's going to require
46:18
sacrifice for the family. And so, you know, an abundance
46:21
of counselors, there's wisdom, but at least you're starting by
46:25
saying, help me understand how I can best please God and how I
46:31
can love others well as I work through this decision.
46:37
I love it. I think it's great and.
46:39
Jim, thank you so much for coming on and sharing this
46:42
wisdom today on how to have gobbly boundaries and how to
46:46
manage that well. And I thank you for your time.
46:49
I know that you are a busy man, but right now we're in the
46:52
middle of a snowstorm. When this comes out, it'll be a
46:55
couple months before this and got a bunch of white stuff
46:58
everywhere. And so it's been a great time to
47:01
really just you know, for for me, it's been a couple of days
47:05
where we hunkered down, we played video games, we played
47:08
board games, we hung out with the kids.
47:10
It was a restful time that I needed and our family needed
47:13
more than I thought. And so it's really good.
47:16
And you know, you're out walking with your bride and I love that.
47:20
And I thank you for again the. Fact that I'm.
47:23
Multitasking. A bit now, it's kind of an
47:26
illustration of the principle as I've committed to walk with my
47:28
wife an hour every day. And this morning it was too cold
47:32
earlier and I asked if it was OK if I was outside while we
47:35
talked. And so I was able to do three
47:37
things simultaneously. I need exercise.
47:41
I need to get my wife out to keep her streak of 5 1/2 years
47:44
of 10,000 steps a day going. And I have the privilege of
47:47
talking to you. And so I'm really thankful to
47:49
you all that you accommodated my unusual position as we're
47:54
talking today. No, it's our pleasure.
47:57
Thank you for coming on. I hope this helps you today.
48:00
Yeah, I hope this helps you today and.
48:03
Share it if you can and thank you dear listener.
48:06
If you have anything we can do for you, let us know.
48:08
Until next time, to God be the glory great things he has done.
48:13
Found my new name. Found that good.
48:16
Grace. Found that healing and the tears
48:20
fell down my face when I found my beginning has no ending.
48:25
Found that second chance. Found my best friend.
48:26
Found my forgiveness. Found my happiness.
48:28
I've been singing ever since and found my freedom.
48:36
Me all. Thanks for listening to The Four
48:46
Freedom. Podcast If you enjoyed our
48:48
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